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  • Technorati: graph / links

    1984: A Sikh Story on BBC1 now


    by Sunny on 10th January, 2010 at 11:16 PM    

    From here:

    An hour-long documentary presented by Sonia Deol titled ‘1984: A Sikh Story’ will ret-tell the story of the year the Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi sent troops into the holiest and most revered of Sikh shrines, The Golden Temple.

    AIM Magazine has learnt that it is likely to prove controversial with some Sikh groups because of its portrayal of the militant Sikh preacher Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. It is also likely to draw the ire of the Indian government for its story on how it reacted following the assassination of Indira Gandhi.


         
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    1. godelian — on 11th January, 2010 at 12:04 AM  

      did we really need to have such an important issue presented as a personal journey? talk about dumbing down at the Beeb….what was wrong with Mark Tully himself doing it…

    2. Shamit — on 11th January, 2010 at 12:06 AM  

      I just watched it - excellent documentary and very moving.

    3. Sunny — on 11th January, 2010 at 12:16 AM  

      did we really need to have such an important issue presented as a personal journey?

      Yes, because sometimes people lose the personal perspective in all this.

    4. jas brum — on 11th January, 2010 at 12:26 AM  

      hi, just watched the programme and googled “sonia deol bhindranwale forum” to see if there are any post programme debates going on.i am a 30 yr old sikh born and raised in birmingham, remember it as a child barely, thought she did a good job- though im still no close to deciding how good/bad bhindranwale was, for people like my wife who knew sod all it was informative, and for both of us very moving, the widows, i’ve read worse stuff that happened too, but i liked the programme

    5. godelian — on 11th January, 2010 at 12:39 AM  

      The personal perspective would have come from the moving testimony of witnesses and victims themselves anyway..why add another character ie Sonia, whose story is of no particular significance to anyone?
      I mean was it a documentary or a bit of ‘celebrity- led’ self-indulgent TV? Having practically ignored the events and effects of 1984 for the last 25 years was this the best the Beeb could come up with? A wasted opportunity…
      what’s wrong with a straightforward documentary with talking heads and sharp analysis? What’s with all the bells and whistles of ‘personal journeys’ and anodyne narratives of a Brit-Sikh cuaght between two cultures? If you want to rediscover your faith do it in your own time but don’t fund it with my licence fee…

    6. The Common Humanist — on 11th January, 2010 at 12:43 AM  

      Hi All,
      Really interesting programme and well done to the Beeb.

      One thing - the School she visited with the slightly intense young men that she seemed nervous about…..seen that look before at Madrassas in Pakistan……is the current insanity affecting parts of Pakistani Islam leaching into other religions???
      (i.e I though Sikhism was a more egalitarian faith????)

    7. Gurminder — on 11th January, 2010 at 12:45 AM  

      Yes, because sometimes people lose the personal perspective in all this.

      The danger is that the documentary becomes more about the presenter than the actual subject, which I feel it did in this instance.

      The gravity of the subject matter did not need a personal perspective to bring it home to viewers. Does someone need to see Miss Deol cry in order to empathise with those that suffered?

      It was terribly watered down in my opinion, and as someone has already said above, very dumbed down. For a truer account of what happened in November 1984, the following film is recommended: http://www.thewidowcolony.com/

    8. Gurminder — on 11th January, 2010 at 12:46 AM  

      Couldn’t agree more godelian.

    9. Sanjay Singh — on 11th January, 2010 at 1:43 AM  

      I saw this documentary, which I found very moving, but it rather worried me that it left Sonia Deol wondering whether she should start wearing a turban and using her real Sikh name. Religions can and do change with the times, but there is nothing to stop Sonia from using her real Sikh name in her private life when she is off the tv (unless she so much enjoys that fame). Many journalists and authors use a ‘non de plume’ for published work. And does she not realise that even in India, most Sikh women, including those baptised, do not wear turbans? If she is really concerned to re-discover the roots of her faith she should think more about her morals - the ideals of equality and tolerance that are at the heart of the Sikh faith. And to exemplify these she could perhaps give up the Mercedes Benz car she enjoys driving around in. Sell it, and give the money to some charitable cause that works for women, the poor, and the disadvantaged. I think she might find this more of a challenge.

    10. Kitten — on 11th January, 2010 at 9:27 AM  

      I think having 1 hour to cover such a politically complex subject is a task in itself. You have to remember that Sonia Deol probably had to ‘water it down’ and present the programme from her personal perspective to keep it politically correct as it’s still a sensitive subject. It was a good 1 hour summary of what happened and at least encourages the viewer to find out more if they need to. The Golden Temple should never have been used as a bunker. Having weapons there was a mistake - even though Bindrawale said himself that having weapons doesnt make a man a killer - but in the end the conclusion to the Operation was a blood bath. My uncle was stuck in Delhi at the time - he had to cut off his turban to get back to Punjab after he had been beaten but managed to escape.

    11. Ishwar — on 11th January, 2010 at 10:14 AM  

      I did n’t expect much when I knew Sonia Deol was going to patronise an incredibly complex topic with her ‘personal quest’.

      @Kitten - 26 years after why does she have to be ‘ politically correct’? Don’t the victims on both sides desere the truth or at least and attempt at the truth being presented? She does not live in India, she could’ve investigated what she wanted.

      It missed out so many events leading up to Operation Bluestar it would naturally cause people to think Jarnail Singh was a terrorist. No mention of human right abuses happening to Sikhs TO THIS DAY - instead she has a disjointed conversation with an 18 year old and decides there are no problems now.

      I doubt many people would want to read more into it after seeing this poor excuse of a documentray - they are happy with Sikhs and especially Jarnail Singh being terrorists. They are happy with things being reduced to ‘good’, ‘bad’ etc. State violence = good, people violence = bad.

      I have nothing against Sonia, she did the best she could do. Good luck to her.

      Next time I hope the BBC get someone up to tackling a difficult multifacted subject or don’t bother and spend the money entertaining the masses with strictly come dancing.

    12. chattebox07 — on 11th January, 2010 at 11:38 AM  

      It was somewhat disappointing. Even I could have done a better job than the BBC or Sonia Deol did and it goes to show that even I have far more knowledge than she does (I am 27 years old, she is in her mid 30’s). Her view that things have changed (at the end when she was celebrating Diwali) is pathetic!! What has changed??? People in India still do not speak openly and honestly about 1984 because 26 years (this year) on they still live in fear of India’s Government. 1984 was the start of the attacks - hundreds and thousands of innocent sikhs have been murdered, tortured, raped, have suffered and are suffering since then. Added to that the number of innocent British, American and Canadian Sikhs locked up in jails in India?

      She also mentioned there apparently being some attacks on buses between Hindus and Sikhs prior to June 6…….errrmmm exactly what attacks/fights is she talking about? These so called fights and attacks did not happen. There was a curfew (4/5 days) beforehand around Punjab and then the attack happened. Those in the Gurdwara around the start of the curfew were locked inside and not allowed to leave (even though some lived close by). Jeez what a shambles of a programme. I understand telling the truth is difficult but I could have done a much much better job than that!! BBC & Sonia Deol should have done their research beforehand. I did not stay up to watch Sonia Deol’s personal biography and trying to find her faith again. Pathetic presenter!

      I found a good article on it and have to say I agree with the points made.
      http://thelangarhall.com/uk/review-1984-a-sikh-story-on-bbc/

      If I knew it was going to be a pathetic attempt at what happened I would not have stayed up and watched it. The events of 1984 were well planned and organised a long long time before they happened and this was done by India’s government. I could have presented the truth better than the pathetic beep and the timing of the programme was also rubbish…10.55pm??

    13. Jai — on 11th January, 2010 at 12:17 PM  

      It might have been more constructive for the scheduling to have been better, rather than the documentary being tucked away very late on a Sunday night, in order to ensure that it received a wider viewing audience.

      did we really need to have such an important issue presented as a personal journey?

      Yes, because sometimes people lose the personal perspective in all this.

      Agreed. I think the programme was pretty much in the same spirit as Mishal Hussein’s recent three-part BBC series about Gandhi, which was also deliberately tied in with Mishal’s own family’s background & historical experiences and ultimately the impact that the research uncovered during the series had on Mishal herself.

      In some ways it’s similar to the premise of the “Who Do You Think You Are ?” series. It’s not necessarily the only way to approach the topic, of course, but it’s a good enough way to do it in its own right.

    14. Dalbir — on 11th January, 2010 at 12:30 PM  

      ….what was wrong with Mark Tully himself doing it…

      Because he is a blindly pro-Gandhi/government type, whose nervous disposition probably makes him jump at his own shadows in the evenings.

      He is incapable of the courage required to find the truth in all this.

    15. Dalbir — on 11th January, 2010 at 12:51 PM  

      One thing – the School she visited with the slightly intense young men that she seemed nervous about…..seen that look before at Madrassas in Pakistan……is the current insanity affecting parts of Pakistani Islam leaching into other religions???
      (i.e I though Sikhism was a more egalitarian faith????)

      No, us brownie religious types are all the same…..

      Twat, that school has been open for a few centuries now. Other than your sick prejudice, what is it that made those kids reading Sikh scripture look particularly ‘intense’ to you? Do let us know.

      Humanist my arse.

    16. The Common Humanist — on 11th January, 2010 at 2:25 PM  

      Dalbir
      Your hysterical response not withstanding, the reason I brought it up is that sonia in the programme mentioned specifically that she didn’t know how the students et al would react to being asked questions by a western women. It was my understanding that Sikhism is a more egalitarian religion. Furthermore on Wednesday last week watched a Ch4 doc on the web about Madrasses and there were superficial similarities. Hence the question - as opposed to say making sweeping statements…….

      “sick prejudice” - really????
      “twat” - how polite.

    17. singh — on 11th January, 2010 at 2:34 PM  

      superb programme showing us both sides made mistakes, And 1 hr was not enough time secondly i want to tell mrs sonia n the team good job. Deol In the end its not only 84 look at the sikhs who gave their lives during gurus time n look now. LOOK AT THE SIKHS WHO PREFERED DEATH THEN CUTTING THEIR HAIR N BEARD TO KEEP THE IDENTITY OF SINGH n KAUR Alive look now. look at those sigh singhnia jina ne sees diteh band band khoprian luhaaiaan, chakria tteay ahray(bhai mati das) arya nal cheer gaye then ask urself why they did that and ask urself now that am i really sikh its NOT ABOUT CHOICE. when they all took shaheedi they did not care about themselves they were thinking about us. till today indian leaders know that if we come into power there is trouble and they have Succeeded in destroying n dividing us but WE R TO BLAME

    18. Parvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 2:37 PM  

      I don’t have an issue about the biopic element of the programme.

      Nevertheless, a more probing documentary with an experienced reporter could have covered the following:

      1. The grievances’ of the Sikhs i.e. the promises made by Congress before independence, that Sikhs could experience a ‘glow of freedom’ (Nehru) in their own state (within India).

      2. Probed General Brar as to why, after securing the Golden Temple, according to doctor’s post mortems, many innocent pilgrims had been summarily shot (Brahma Chellaney’s dispatches) and why the Sikh Reference Library was set on fire.

      3. Have General Brar explain the army publication: Baat Cheet no. 153 of July 1984 that clearly labelled baptised Sikhs as terrorists.

      4. Why 37 other Gurdwaras were attacked

      5. The human rights abuses that took place in the villages of Punjab for a whole decade afterwards and the mass cremation case.

      6. No mention of the ruling party’s political complicity in the November 1984 massacres. Even the last official Nanavati report mentions some Congress (I) party workers and leaders having been involved.

      7. The on-going cover-up of November 1984, from judicial, state, police and government level, as well as the destroying of evidence and FIRs, intimidation of witnesses.

      On the other hand, as this issue has largely been ignored by the media, it did provide space for those who lost most, from the Golden Temple attack to the November pogroms. And it was clear also that the Operation Bluestar should never have happened.

    19. Kulvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 3:33 PM  

      No, us brownie religious types are all the same…

      It was a perfectly valid question; and for someone with a complex the size of everest regarding anything ‘white’ saying tully jumps at his own shadow is amusing to say the least.

      He jumps at his own, you cower at the sight of others.

      TCH, in the late 70s and early 80s those moronic men in those religious schools were little more than sikh taliban; bhindranwale and his type were no better than mullah omar.

      Rule by the gun, frown on intellectualism tolerate no dissent.

      Thankfully the fact of the matter was the theocratic seprarist state they advocated had little popular support, there was never any constant dialogue on sepratism let alone theocratic seperatism in punjab. There were and are no discussions like those found in scotland, ni or spains various regions regarding a seperate ethnic homeland.

      It was a bunch of nutters who with the help of the isi post zia ul-haq’s islamification of pakistan were little more than pawns in indian/pakistani ‘relations’; rajiv gandhi infamously told ul-haq and pakistan would have cause ‘to regret its behavior’ weeks before he was mysteriously killed.

      Theres a section of second and later generation sikh migrants around the world, who feeling angsty and isolated in canada/britain/america etc, and without any ‘indian’ identity to relate to feel the need to constantly harp on about khalistan/seperatism etc, but in the region itself its not had anything approaching popular support.

      So yes there are sikh theocrats and even terrorists, but theres no funding or widespread support from the overwhelming number of sikhs; and without external sponsors they don’t amount to much.

    20. Kulvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 3:43 PM  

      nb case in point the documentry was made as part of the ‘journey’ of someone who wasn’t even born in india or part of those events.

      Those who lived there then and those who live there now have more or less moved on (the pm is a sikh)

      Its like oirish americans landing in the olde country to comment about da troubles. Life has simply moved on.

    21. nobodys hero — on 11th January, 2010 at 4:03 PM  

      Why not mention the congress partys role in the genocide of sikhs. lets move on ?. lets carry the banners for palistine iraq afghanistan human right abuses .But forget about the murder the of innocent .And reward the culprits with big ministries in the indian parliament.India may have the most voters in the election of its government ,but it is far from being the worlds most democratic country

    22. Kulvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 4:12 PM  

      lets move on ?

      yes lets, i don’t like living a quarter of a century in the past; i realise all those things happened to you personally and in no way are you attempting to suffer through association as it really would be shameful and a dispicable thing to do; but time moves on and you have to get on with it. Have you tried counselling for what happened to you?

    23. nobodys hero — on 11th January, 2010 at 4:23 PM  

      is this an anti sikh site. So if we follow your logic choir boys in churches must too be neo taliban fundamentalist sleeping suicide bombers.
      Lets clear up some facts Bhindrawales men were only suspected of one murder.Which they were cleared.
      Why did bhindrawale man carry arms.In 1979 amritsar, over 50 sikhs were shot dead during a sikh rally by hindu extremist with links to rss
      Bhindrwala never advocated khalistan only sikh fundamentalism.
      Khalistan was a post 1984 reaction .

    24. The Common Humanist — on 11th January, 2010 at 4:38 PM  

      Kulvinder
      Thanks for the response and the info.
      Much appreciated.

      TCH

    25. Kulvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 4:46 PM  

      So if we follow your logic choir boys in churches must too be neo taliban fundamentalist sleeping suicide bombers

      If they advocate ‘fundamentalism’ and lock themselves up in the vatican with a shit load of weapons…yeah id pretty much go along with that.

    26. Parvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 4:47 PM  

      Kulvinder, I know many people who were directly involved in 1984, my own family were lucky to survive the massacres of November. You rightly state Sikhs in India have made huge strides since and have not let 84 keep them back. This is also not about a separate state.

      Nevertheless, how can you expect the widows and orphans of the pogroms to move on? the very people who supposed to protect them (police) and elected politicians who instigated the mobs have been left untourced for 25 years. Can you imagine what life has been like for them? Should we say to the Muslim women who were widowed after seeing their menfolk slaughtered in Sebrenica in 1995 to move on as well?

    27. The Common Humanist — on 11th January, 2010 at 4:49 PM  

      Chaps

      What scale of pogroms/murders etc are we talking about?

      (You may have noticed I don’t know much about this subject)

      TCH

    28. Kulvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 5:02 PM  

      how can you expect the widows and orphans of the pogroms to move on?

      pretty much the way they have done, day to day they have moved on, the baying mob hunting sikhs isn’t an issue for most of them, im not callous enough to suggest they should just forget about it, but i am realistic enough to know that, well, time moves on

      Should we say to the Muslim women who were widowed after seeing their menfolk slaughtered in Sebrenica in 1995 to move on as well?

      jesus yes, if theres one thing that region and those people need to do its move on, serb nationalists should also get their heads around the fact it isn’t june 1389 any longer

    29. Kulvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 5:09 PM  

      What scale of pogroms/murders etc are we talking about?

      3000 people

    30. Refresh — on 11th January, 2010 at 5:12 PM  

      I watched it, and given what appeared to be ’self-imposed constraints’, it was acceptable as an opener. Lets hope there are others who can fill in the blanks of which there are many. And from a number of perspectives.

      TCH
      With respect to your comments about ’sikh mudrassas’, you should look carefully at most religions and you will find their equivalents exist everywhere. In Judaism you will find Yeshivas, there will be Buddist versions etc. A cursory search will confirm that.

      I must admit I was a little surprised that it was you who raised the question given your interest in history.

      As for the poor media coverage they’ve had of late, you need to step back and understand ‘the need’ for cannon fodder to fight the Cold War that was then focussed on Afghanistan.

      You should read up on the State Department’s policies under Carter and Reagan. In particular developed and pushed by this man:

      See under Afghanistan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski#Afghanistan

    31. The Common Humanist — on 11th January, 2010 at 5:17 PM  

      Refresh
      In terms of history the recent, last 40 yrs say, Sikh experience in India is just not something I know a great deal about. See, there are just parts of history I just don’t know about and am willing to ask! Shock!

      Given what is happening in Pakistan and given the recent doc had seen I really don’t think it is unreasonable to ask if that the problems experienced in Madrasses, which are pretty well documented, was spreading to what I understood to be a egalitarian religion.

      I really don’t see what the fuss is about.

    32. The Common Humanist — on 11th January, 2010 at 5:18 PM  

      And I didn’t say there were Sikh Madrassas, I asked if there were new coming issues with Sikh theological schools. A question. Not a statement. Quite different.

    33. Refresh — on 11th January, 2010 at 5:21 PM  

      Kulvinder, moving on is very important. But moving on for only those at the receiving end is not moving on. They can only really move on once they have justice.

      All those involved need to be taken to task through the legal system. Only then can you accept that you and the society you exist in stands as one for justice and without bias. It also reminds that society that it too is responsible for the crimes committed.

      This applies to everyone wherever they maybe, and whatever the conflict.

    34. Dalbir — on 11th January, 2010 at 5:30 PM  

      The way some of you are going on is like people adhering to their faith punctiliously is some sort of crime. Yes, Common Humanist, it was annoying that you chose to air your perceived link with some young innocent Sikh boys learning to read their scriptures in a centuries old institute as akin to what the Taliban are about. Like Sikhs haven’t already faced enough crap due to being mistaken as Osama Bin Laden followers in the west. So forgive me if I was abrupt but this issue is one that is close to many Sikh’s heart and more Sikh families than many people imagine have been affected by the murders of family members in the events of 1984 and after. Just because the populace had been brutalised into silence doesn’t mean everyone is happy about events.

      Kulvinder, you’d probably think other Sikhs of old like Baba Deep Singh, Sukha and Mehtab Singh etc. etc. are Talibanesque fundamentalists also. This whole issue was created by the Congress party of the time with their own divisive political plans/agenda. A little relenting on the Anandpur Resolution wouldn’t have hurt anyone but instead they chose their own stubborn route and the rest is history.

      Yes we are happy about Manmohan Singh, but don’t forget that his position was given to him by a reluctant Sonia Gandhi. Plus his own failure to face up to organisers of murder within his own party is conspicuous.

      Are you unaware of how Jews, even now, this long after WW2, still pursue those involved in atrocities. Would you tell them to ‘move on’ like you are Sikhs?

      you cower at the sight of others.

      Yeah, sure I do. What are you, the resident Sikh apologist for genocide or something? There’s always one ready to be rolled out…..

      Since when have Sikhs ever let things like this hold them back? That doesn’t mean we forget our history, ancient or modern.

    35. The Common Humanist — on 11th January, 2010 at 5:39 PM  

      Dalbir
      I appreciate you have a chip when it comes to white people asking questions but thats what I was doing….asking a question….what a terrible terrible crime, seeking cultural answers from people who might know. How awful of this whitey.

      Heavens above.

    36. Jai — on 11th January, 2010 at 5:50 PM  

      TCH,

      the reason I brought it up is that sonia in the programme mentioned specifically that she didn’t know how the students et al would react to being asked questions by a western women.

      That’s not quite what happened. Sonia said she was unsure about how the male students would react to her as a Sikh woman with cut hair, not as a “western woman” who would be “asking questions”.

      In the end, of course, they all turned out to be perfectly friendly and polite.

    37. Refresh — on 11th January, 2010 at 6:02 PM  

      TCH, I was actually referring to historical institutions across most, if not all, religions. I was not critical of you asking the question, but was intrigued by the manner.

      Just to add to my earlier comment, and Kulvinder’s input, Zia al-Huq poured US/Saudi monies into the Madrassa system to subvert them. So they would go fight the Soviets out in the Afghan mountains without a murmur.

      The madrassa’s themselves were and in many places probably still are the only means of the poor getting some form of education, food and even shelter. Historically, I suspect this was also the case in Europe.

      So it ill behoves criticising seminaries without first taking on those that subvert them to deliver a political objective.

    38. Refresh — on 11th January, 2010 at 6:15 PM  

      TCH

      ‘Given what is happening in Pakistan and given the recent doc had seen I really don’t think it is unreasonable to ask if that the problems experienced in Madrasses, which are pretty well documented, was spreading to what I understood to be a egalitarian religion.’

      You say ‘pretty well documented’, I say not well enough, as I’ve tried to point out above.

    39. Kulvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 6:16 PM  

      what are you, the resident Sikh apologist for genocide or something?

      ‘or something’

      Are you unaware of how Jews, even now, this long after WW2, still pursue those involved in atrocities. Would you tell them to ‘move on’ like you are Sikhs?

      most did

    40. Anti Fanatic — on 11th January, 2010 at 6:19 PM  

      The Common Humanist is RIGHT, that Sikh school was nothing more than a brain washing Madrassa, Kalistanis are destroying the Sikh way. If anyone wants to know what a real sikh is read an english translation of the Adi Granth. Also these seperatists do not represent all Sikhs, there are Sikh sects with totaly differant ideology’s to the common view of Sikhism such as Nirmala Sikhs or Nihang Sikhs. Who are also one of the oldest & original Sikhs & are totaly against these fruit cake seperatists.

    41. Dalbir — on 11th January, 2010 at 6:20 PM  

      #35

      Well TCH if my response was, let’s say excessively terse, the way you posed your own question didn’t exactly involve the most prudent choice of words. The insinuation (whether intentional or not) was a foul one and I hope you can now rest assured that when some of us get together and deeply immerse ourselves into our religious heritage, it does not always end in us trying to blow whitey up, however intense we may look.

      Thank you and God bless.

    42. Jasjit — on 11th January, 2010 at 6:35 PM  

      Hi Everyone - interesting discussion. My name’s Jasjit Singh, a PhD Researcher from the University of Leeds studying the Transmission of Sikhism among young British Sikhs.

      What I’m finding in my interviews is regardless of opinions on Bhindranwale, there is a lot of frustration amongst young Sikhs about the fact that the Indian govt organised pogroms against the Sikhs and that the perpatrators haven’t yet come to justice.

      This makes young Sikhs feel very confused about India - on the one hand they’re clearly ethnically “Indian” yet on the other hand their people / families have been attacked by the Indian state?

      Anyway as part of this research I’ve put together an online survey. I would really appreciate it if those of you who qualify could fill this survey in:

      http://www.survey.leeds.ac.uk/sikhs

      Any questions please get in touch.

      Many Thanks.

      Jasjit.

      PS Further details on my website: http://www.personal.leeds.ac.uk/~trs5j2s/

    43. Anti Fanatic — on 11th January, 2010 at 6:45 PM  

      Attacked by Indian State? I’ll tell you what I’m confused about. As to why so many people who call themselves Sikhs let these Khalistani fanatics hijack my faith & drive a wedge between people, start a bloodshed then claim they did it for Sikhism!

    44. Jasjit — on 11th January, 2010 at 6:54 PM  

      Hi Anti - that’s what they’re saying mate - most of them aren’t that bothered about Khalistan - more concerned about injustice.

      BTW in your experience how have these “Khalistani fanatics” hijacked Sikhism ? I mean through what processes? OK some G’dwaras are pro-Khalistani, but how else?

    45. nobodys hero — on 11th January, 2010 at 7:06 PM  

      You fucking big word intellectuals A for english. But learn some history. A thousand pound bet find me prove of any Khalistan speech by bhindrawale and how many people did his followers kill. . i will paypal a thousand pound to your account.And google is the biggest library in the world
      Over 10 000 sikhs were killed during the rioting after the assination of indira Ghandi.

    46. Anti Fanatic — on 11th January, 2010 at 7:09 PM  

      When my temple hands out leaflets saying atrocities are being commited against sikhs, what atrocities? I know about what happened in 84, but this was being said in my temple last year. Everytime I go to India I dont feel there is any discrimination, nor has my family in India experianced any atrocities. Also banging on about how Hindus are trying to absorb the Sikhs & turn them back into Hindus. What rubbish, Infact there are sikh orders that dont even deny their hindu connections and regardless of that everyone knows India is not a Hindu state it is a secular state & always has been. Also the Sikh demands that were not met thats highlighted as one of the reasons for the trouble in the 80’s. Well they were Jat demands & lets be honest all fanatical Sikhs are Jats.

    47. Anti Fanatic — on 11th January, 2010 at 7:24 PM  

      Jasjit, also they purposely promote an ideology that is totally not what the 10 guru’s preached & label it Sikhism. They purposely deny other Sikhs a voice just because they hold differant views on the faith & label them traitors. Fine get justice for the Sikhs hurt in the mid 80’s but dont make out that jarnail represented all Sikhs and that he was some sort of Sikh defender because he was not.

    48. Jasjit — on 11th January, 2010 at 7:50 PM  

      Hi nobody - that’s what they’re saying mate - putting the personality of SJSB aside - the fact that “Over 10000 sikhs were killed during the rioting after the assination of indira Ghandi” is what people seem to be most frustrated about.

    49. SSJOHAL — on 11th January, 2010 at 7:54 PM  

      Pavinder, some time back you, gave a link to a documentary In the Memory of Friends. By Anand ? do you still have that, it was on the Punjab.

    50. Dal — on 11th January, 2010 at 7:55 PM  

      What was this program supposed to be about. Was it about the Sikhs and what happended in 1984 or about some scatty wannabe celebrity take on the whole thing.

      Thank you the BBC for wasting our money again.

      How about real documentaries which tell you facts and accounts from the people that were there and for the issues surrounding that time.

      More embarrasing was her attempts to speak to witnesses in her broken Panjabi.

    51. nobodys hero — on 11th January, 2010 at 8:20 PM  

      Well they were Jat demands & lets be honest all fanatical Sikhs are Jats. So the Anand pur sahib was only for jats

      The diversion of punjab rivers, only jats drink water.Punjab is becoming a desert.
      Amritsar to become a dry city.Only a jat demand then why is Gujrat a dry state.
      Chandigarh to be given back to Punjab. exclusively a jat city

    52. Kulvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 8:30 PM  

      the fact that “Over 10000 sikhs were killed during the rioting after the assination of indira Ghandi” is what people seem to be most frustrated about.

      Is this the type of ‘fact’ you’ll be submitting in you phd?

    53. nobodys hero — on 11th January, 2010 at 8:38 PM  

      Moneys still on the table, kalvinder back your rants with facts not prejudices

    54. Jasjit — on 11th January, 2010 at 8:55 PM  

      Hi Kulwinder - no mate. I’ll be looking at the impact of the anti-Sikh pogroms on British Sikhs today. I haven’t got the exact numbers yet - have you?

    55. SSJOHAL — on 11th January, 2010 at 9:10 PM  

      An excerpt from Paash’s last poem
      “The Most Dangerous” by Paash

      Most treacherous is not the robbery
      of hard earned wages
      Most horrible is not the torture by the police.

      Most dangerous is
      To be filled with dead peace
      Not to feel agony and bear it all,

      Leaving home for work
      And from work return home
      Most dangerous is the death of our dreams.

      Most dangerous is that watch
      Which runs on your wrist
      But stands still for your eyes.

      Most dangerous is that eye
      Which sees all but remains frostlike,
      Most dangerous is the moon
      Which rises in the numb yard
      After each murder,
      But does not pierce your eyes like hot chillies

      Paash was my friend who was killed by Khalistanis in 1988 more on wikipedia

    56. Kulvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 9:12 PM  

      Moneys still on the table, kalvinder back your rants with facts not prejudices

      It doesn’t matter what i present to you as you’ll dismiss it as a source; his finely judged prevarication on khalistan during interviews is somewhat irrelevant given his defacto annexation of the golden temple complex.

      If he never wanted a theocratic sikh state he wouldn’t have set up a theocratic sikh outpost. I’m not quite sure how to respond to someone who wants facts about his desire for sikh theocracy other than to point out his actions.

      I haven’t got the exact numbers yet – have you?

      2,733, as per the bbc link; if you find others the enquiries missed im sure they’d add them to the total.

    57. Rumbold — on 11th January, 2010 at 9:58 PM  

      Estimates range from 2,500 to 10,000 dead Again, it is always difficult to establish exact numbers, as anti-Sikh actions didn’t just take place in Delhi.

      People are right to carry on fighting for justice because the people that did this are still in power (which is a bad thing), and India doesn’t benefit from a state whereby people can do this and get away with it. The key is to avoid the Khalistan/1984 overlap- we don’t want a quest for justice hampered by political ideas. Kulvinder’s point about moving on is important too though.

      As someone mentined above, I have heard the ‘Widow Colony’ documentary is excellent.

      How much did the Indian government direct the massacre(s)? I’m not sure:

      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/6400

    58. Ravinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 10:03 PM  

      Khalistan exists where ever there are 5 baptised Gursikhs.
      Sikhism is a religion based on humanity and serving it not seperating from it.
      The hardest task that Sikhs have today is aspiring to be Sikhs.
      Sant Ji did not endorse a seperate state.
      If you do research on the subject matter you will find evidence that the Indian Army actually prepared to attack Darbar Shahib 18 months prior to Sant Ji actually being there.
      You dont need an Army to arrest a man where a arrest warrant will suffice. When the Govt attempted to frame him for the Nirankari murder they did not need an Army to arrest him then. So why in 84?
      For one man to be made out as the root cause is not reality. You have to look at the history leading up to the events and the events carried out after till the present day.
      The Akal Thakht as built by the 6th Guru Shri Har Gobind. It stood as a symbol of political and military resistance against the tyranny and cruelity of the rulers the 17th and 18th century.
      There has always been weapons at the Akal Thakht.
      The destruction wrought by the Gandhi adminsitration and Indian Army was soley carried out to destroy the Sikh faith and create factions within it so that they could be more easily controlled for political power. By blaming the 1 true inspirational leader of the time for the attack was just a clever ploy and manipulation.
      Many learned non Sikh scholars have written about the Sikhs and what they have and are facing not one has had a bad word to say about the Sant.
      Cynthia Keppley Mahmood (Dr. Mahmood) is a Fellow of the American Anthropological Association and a member of the American Civil Liberties Union. Her works are to be read for further unbiased understanding.

    59. Parvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 10:14 PM  

      33: Refresh:’ Kulvinder, moving on is very important. But moving on for only those at the receiving end is not moving on. They can only really move on once they have justice.’ – spot on.

      One very important reason why the instigators should be brought to justice is that these events have a habit of repeating themselves. There is a common view in India that one of the reason the state-sponsored pogroms of Muslims in Gujarat occurred in 2002 was because of the precedent left by 1984. ie. that the authorities, this time from the nationalist BJP and the local police knew they could get away with it as in the case in 1984. When the 2002 killings are raised by Congress, the BJP reply with 1984. ‘If you can do it, we can do it too, and get away with it’. This is extremism and fanaticism at its best.

      I watched the widows air their plight on Indian TV last November and their march to parliament to demand justice. Are we saying to them, get over it? The most powerful bit about Sonia Deol’s piece was when after listening to some of the testimonies, she was set aback as to how so many families had their sons, fathers and grandfathers butchered in just 3 days. At the time, the government shrugged off their complicity by telling them, it’s was a ‘natural phenomena’ so ‘get over it’… sounds familiar?

      #49: SSJohal – excellent documentary about Shaheed Bhagat Singh by Anand Patwardhan ‘In Memory of Friends’ (couldn’t find the link though). Although I don’t really have anytime for Maoists and communists of whatever guise in India today.

      #57: Rumbold – ‘How much did the Indian government direct the massacre(s)? I’m not sure’

      According to the then Lt-Gov of Delhi, PG. Gavai, Rajiv Gandhi’s government ‘deliberately delayed’ in calling in the Army so to ‘teach the Sikhs a lesson’. He has also said that after all this time the Indian state is still not prepared to ‘face up to the political complicity’ in the massacre.
      See: http://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/75903/

    60. Kulvinder — on 11th January, 2010 at 10:18 PM  

      You dont need an Army to arrest a man where a arrest warrant will suffice.

      unless the man and his fanatical followers fortify themselves inside a religious complex.

    61. SSJOHAL — on 11th January, 2010 at 10:19 PM  

      Nobodys-hero

      Why did bhindrawale man carry arms.In 1979 amritsar, over 50 sikhs were shot dead during a sikh rally by hindu extremist with links to rss

      The above killings took place, when another religious sect ‘The Narankaris’ where taking out a procession. The followers of Binderwale men went to oppose this. The Narankaries were armed and opened fire killing his followers.

    62. SSJOHAL — on 11th January, 2010 at 10:25 PM  

      Nobodys-hero,

      by the way, only 13 died,

    63. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:17 AM  

      by the way, only 13 died, So its ok to kill 13 people no prosecution. The people killed were ordinary sikh people. The narankaris were backed by the congress party and rss . like BHINDRAWALE was in his early days. He gets blamed for one death , he has a fucking army blowing up the golden temple to find his ass.
      The indian army is inept and incompetent like they proved during the bombay hotel attack 2009.What were they like 25 years ago. Causing the death of hundreds of innocent people. The army general was lying through his teeth . They could surround the city of amritsar for a month after attacking the golden temple .But could not surround the temple before the attack because of the threat from the local sikh peasantry.

    64. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:32 AM  

      It is also likely to draw the ire of the Indian government for its story on how it reacted following the assassination of Indira Gandhi . sajjan the present congress minister for the commonweath was refused a visa because he would have been arrested by scotland yard for his involvement in the genocide of sikh during 1984 which lead to the massacre if 3000 sikhs. Like General Augusto Pinochet, Sajjan Kumar would have been arrested for crimes against humanity. His visa was refused to avoid international embrassement

    65. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 6:38 AM  

      It doesn’t matter what i present to you as you’ll dismiss it as a source; his finely judged prevarication on khalistan during interviews is somewhat irrelevant given his defacto annexation of the golden temple complex .What is relevant is the anti sikh camp want to make bhindrawale into a Khalistan god father .responsible for all the killings and carnage of the movement.Therefore the storming of the golden temple and the slaughter of the innocent can be justified.As a point of interest how many of bhindrawales men were captured.What happened to those injured .More than likely they would have been summary executions.Indian army does not follow the Geneva rights of warfare.

    66. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 9:32 AM  

      i cant find no evidence of any Bhindrawales men, injured or not, being arrested during the attack on the GOLDEN TEMPLE .Was it a policy of kill all injured and captured.If so General Kuldip singh brar should be charged for warcrimes under the Hague Conventions (1899 and 1907)or any other covention which governs military engagement

    67. Ravinder — on 12th January, 2010 at 9:34 AM  

      “unless the man and his fanatical followers fortify themselves inside a religious complex.”

      Kulvinder it is not the complex that is religious but the people that are there that make it so. As Sikhs we do no worship idols nor buildings.

      Maharaj Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not build a Gurdwara his darbar was the open world.

      As in my previous posting the Akal Takht role has always been very specific. For you to blindly call the Singhs fanatical is diabolical and disgusting.

      The truth of the matter is that there was no reason to attack the Darbar Shahib, Sant ji was not the head of the Khalistani movement. The murders of the Khalistanis continued after 84.

      The sole reason why Sant Ji was murdered was because he was inspiring youth and the Sikh population of Punjab to become baptised Sikhs.

      Which scared the govt as they knew that there would be calls for a seperate country for the Sikhs as there was prior to the British Raj.

    68. SSJOHAL — on 12th January, 2010 at 10:07 AM  

      The truth of the matter is that there was no reason to attack the Darbar Shahib, Sant ji was not the head of the Khalistani movement. The murders of the Khalistanis continued after 84.

      Murderous campaign of killing was conducted from the Golden Temple by that religious madmen, the Temple is a place of worship and he turned that into headquaters of terror. The temple was turned into a fortress. Can you you please tell any Guru’s who used the Temple as fortresses when they conducted their warfare. Binderwale was just a religious fanatic. The following is quote from one of is speeches ‘ If the children of sheep and goats can bear arms, why cant the children of lions.What does this mean? Were as the Indian government is responsible for the destruction of the Golden Temple, Binderwale is also responsible, and Sikhs in Punjab and across the World are also responsible because they kept quite to the events that were happening in the Punjab, particulary the The Golden temple.

    69. Ravinder — on 12th January, 2010 at 10:34 AM  

      SSJOHAL - Do you have any knowledge on the history of Sikhism??? Use google will aid your route to discovery.

      Where is the evidence that a murderous campaign was carried out by the Sikhs?
      It did not happen no Sikh ever took arms to bludgen any other faith, all Hindus and Muslims in that time were unafraid of the Sant and the Sikhs. They looked to them for protection from the Punjab Police and Govt who paid men to dress as Sikhs to then go and terrorise non Sikhs and Sikhs in the hope that they could push people away from Sikhi and the Sant.

      The Gurdwara itself was not fortified it was the Akal Takht and the complex around the Gurdwara. Maharaj Guru Har Gobind constructed the Akal Takht as the military and political HQ for the Sikhs.

      His quote means very simply that the children of the Sikhs are children of Lions. Singh means Lion. If the children of non sikhs can carry wepons why can they not? Also all weapons were licensed by the Indian Govt. Furthermore Maharaj Guru Har Gobind gave the Sikhs Miri and Piri, a Amritdhari Gursikh must be trained in Shastar Vidya and must wear their Kirpan, as weapons evolved so must the knowledge of the Sikh to use them hence from spears and swords to AK47’s and RPG’s.

      Only the Indian Govt is to blame NO ONE else.

      The Indian govt have refused Amnesty International access to the Punjab on 6 seperate occasions, no other country in the world has done this.

      When the Govt and its Army went in to destroy Sikhism they also looted the library and set fire to the complex. We lost more than we know on that terrible day.

      They also on the day of the attack at Amritsar bombed 37 other gurdwara through out Punjab. WHY? If your after 1 man where you know he is would you bomb 37 seperate sites?

      SSJOHAL before you post your thoughts that you are entitled to I would actually study into them and see if they have any support to them. Yours dont.

      The Sikhs have never kept quiet, it was the Indian Govt who removed all International media from the Punjab, for days there was no news in or out. It is the Indian Govt that covered the genocide which they started.
      It is the same Indian Govt which in its constitution does not recognise the Sikh faith as a Religion.

    70. Dalbir — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:27 PM  

      How much did the Indian government direct the massacre(s)? I’m not sure:

      Witness statements seem pretty compelling. The uniform inaction of the police is also telling.

    71. Dogra — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:27 PM  

      Show was fair enough given time constraints.
      Indiras blasted politicking and initial pact with the dark lord Bhindrawale was always going to end in terror.
      Indira is mostly to blame, she after all gave the order to attack the sacred Golden Temple, when others ways to stop Bhinda like surrounding the golden temple and cutting off utilities, and the butchers in Delhi still need bringing to justice, and it is good those trees are being planted in the victims memory.

      Bhinda was also guilty,and did not know that Bhinda was laughing during the attack, as stated by a priest during the attack, when he was reloading the guns.
      Bhinda gave an edict:

      On November 17, 1983, Bhindranwale bluntly demanded ‘that all Hindus should leave Punjab.’61

      Quoted from this message

      incitement to violence:

      On August 17, 1983, Bhindranwale asked Sikh youth to buy a motorcycle and a revolver and threatened to kill 5,000 Hindus in an hour if the police delayed the minibus he had sent to fetch Amrik Singh who had just been released from police custody.59

      Quoted from this message

      http://www.sikhtimes.com/bios_060604a.html

    72. Dogra — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:29 PM  

      when people criticised Bhinda, they were killed later:

      “A few brave voices did speak up, both within the Golden Temple and from many of the Gurudwaras across the state. Among the most powerful of these voices was the venerable Giani Partap Singh, an old man of eighty by that time, one of the most revered spiritual leaders and a former Jathedar of the Akal Takht, who had openly attacked Bhindranwale for stocking arms and ammunition in the Akal Takht and described his occupation of the shrine as an act of sacrilege. He was shot dead at his home in Tahli Chowk. Other voices were raised; and swiftly silenced. They included Niranjan Singh, the Granthi of Gurudwara Toot Sahib; Granthi Surat Singh of Majauli; and Granthi Jarnail Singh of Valtoha. All those who spoke against Bhindranwale were his enemies; and all his enemies were enemies of the Faith”

    73. Dogra — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:31 PM  

      Mark Tully quite clearly said Bhindrawales mob were engaged in violence, people living there also know the truth, but that cannot be stated as fact, as it is persons statement, also Amensty International says:
      http://www.amnesty.ca/resource_centre/reports/view.php?load=arcview&article=479

      The decade of violent political opposition in Punjab — which lasted from the mid-1980s to the mid-1990s — started when a movement within the Sikh community in Punjab turned to violence to achieve an independent state for the Sikhs. During that period armed opposition groups targeted and killed police officers, elected representatives and civil servants. The security forces resorted to unlawful and indiscriminate arrests, torture and extrajudicial executions. Thousands of civilians were the victims of the violence on both sides.

    74. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:37 PM  

      Murderous campaign of killing was conducted from the Golden Temple by that religious madmen

      what murderous campaign, facts
      Fact ,when Bhindrawale was arrested and interviewed for the murder of the amritsar editor.His followers protested,the police opened fire killing 18 sikhs.Later Bhindrawale was released without charge,

    75. Dalbir — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:42 PM  

      Who are these thousands of dead Hindus then?

      The fact on the ground is that the vast majority of those killed were innocent Sikhs and that through government sanctioned actions. Most were nothing to do with any militant movement. Trying to use Bhindranwale as some form of justification for this is lame.

    76. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:47 PM  

      On August 17, 1983, Bhindranwale asked Sikh youth to buy a motorcycle and a revolver and threatened to kill 5,000 Hindus in an hour if the police delayed the minibus he had sent to fetch Amrik Singh who had just been released from police custody.
      This sounds alot of fiction 5000 hindus a hour.He had weapons of mass destruction ?
      Like the..Geoffery Hoons infamous qoute, Saddam Hussein could launch a attack of mass destruction in 45 minute.Therefore we have to attack him first

    77. Dogra — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:48 PM  

      “Bhindranwale ordered a brutal ‘execution’ within the Temple precincts itself. In April 1983, A.S. Atwal, a Deputy Inspector General of Police, came to pray at the Temple; after receiving prasad at the Harmandir Sahib, he walked out towards the marble steps near the main entrance of the Complex where he was shot dead in broad daylight, with scores of witnesses standing by, including his own bodyguard and a police contingent posted a hundred yards away.”

    78. Dogra — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:52 PM  

      “This sounds alot of fiction 5000 hindus a hour.He had weapons of mass destruction ?”

      That is what bhindrawale said and thats a fact, and hence why he was a dark lord imo

    79. Dogra — on 12th January, 2010 at 1:57 PM  

      “Who are these thousands of dead Hindus then?

      Again incitement to violence, where Hindu people were pulled of buses and killed, check amnesty international, but yes majority were Sikh people, end of the day they were innocent people, this is not a numbers game, and Human rights groups states Indian authorties were also guilty, 2 sides to this.

    80. Shamit — on 12th January, 2010 at 2:06 PM  

      I don’t like the tone of the debate that is going on here. Thousands of Indians (of all faiths but mostly sikhs) lost their lives during those crazy khalistan years and in 1984.

      The political classes as well as self appointed religious leaders (including Bhindranwale) were to be blamed for their deaths.

      I wonder what the Gurus would have thought about some of the statements and actions of Bhindranwale. I don’t think they would have been best please.

      I don’t believe the mass population either Hindu or Sikh saw each other as enemies as many here are trying to portray. And let us not forget, sikhs protected hindus from bhindranwale and his fanatic supporters in Punjab and many hindus protected sikhs in Delhi following Indira gandhi assasination and elsewhere in India.

      In some cases, the state governments quickly took steps to ensure there was no loss of life such as in West Bengal- Even though there was loss of property and humiliation which some Sikhs were put through - that was disgusting and should have never happended.

      I am writing this comment to highlight an interview with an serving Sikh Indian Army Officer Lt Col Gurinder Singh Ghuman (Retd) who was involved in Operation Bluestar. Read the interview - its moving and even he says that the majority of the Sikhs never belived in Khalistan and the influence of Bhindranwale was overrated - here’s the full interview:

      http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?262210

      Its moving and sad and how unwarranted suspicion ruined a good officer’s career - and I am sure there are thousands more like him.

      But he is a patriotic Indian like most Sikhs. And India loses a huge part of its success, its heritage and its history if Sikhs were not part of it. India could not have reached where it is today without the Sikhs.

      This urge for Khalistan is foreign and if you notice it usually stems out of the UK and/or Canada. And it is mostly supported by people who do not carry Indian passports.

    81. Dalbir — on 12th January, 2010 at 2:17 PM  

      Thing is, the authorities are in no position to claim any moral authority given that they themselves have butchered more people than the so called terrorists.

      Creating a ’silence of the graveyard’ doesn’t make everything fine now.

    82. Dalbir — on 12th January, 2010 at 2:31 PM  

      Again incitement to violence, where Hindu people were pulled of buses and killed, check amnesty international, but yes majority were Sikh people, end of the day they were innocent people, this is not a numbers game, and Human rights groups states Indian authorties were also guilty, 2 sides to this.

      I’ve said before on this forum. There were unacceptable things done by some Sikhs under the banner of Khalistan but we still do not know how much of this type of stuff was actually done by governmental operatives to stir up the hornet’s nest.

      Many of the so-called K’stani groups were heavily infiltrated by such agencies.

      Besides all of this really constitutes red herrings to detract from the truth of the genocide of thousands of Sikhs who had nothing to do with any militancy.

    83. Rumbold — on 12th January, 2010 at 2:31 PM  

      Parvinder and Dalbir:

      All I meant was that it is unclear how much there was a central hand directing the massacres, as the evidence suggests it was a mob that had help/was composed partly of government officials. Obviously there were a few high ups who were involved, I just don’t think the whole thing was planned by the government, given the similarities between it and religious massacres in Europe, that were not wholly planned by the state.

    84. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 2:34 PM  

      Dont mix the 2nd world war with the first.
      Bhindrawale had nothing to do with post 1984 ,He was dead. He never advocated khalistan .The topic here is Sonia Deols programme on the Storming of the Golden temple and the genocide of the sikh after the assination of Indira gandhi.The resulting in the death of 3000 sikhs in delhi. The genocide was orchestra by Congress politician Sajjan Kumar,who is a minister for the present government

    85. Dalbir — on 12th January, 2010 at 2:35 PM  

      #83

      Be that as it may Rumbold, the subsequent protection afforded to those that did help orchestrate the mobs implicates the government after the fact in the very least.

    86. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 2:43 PM  

      Obviously there were a few high ups who were involved, I just don’t think the whole thing was planned by the government, given the similarities between it and religious massacres in Europe, that were not wholly planned by the state.So it makes it ok, Listen people your husband and brothers were butchered by the congress party , but it wasnt personal they were only low ranking in the government pecking order . It could have been worse Rajiv Gandhi could have been giving the orders when petrol was being poured on tyres around your love ones neck.

    87. Dogra — on 12th January, 2010 at 2:44 PM  

      “Besides all of this really constitutes red herrings to detract from the truth of the genocide of thousands of Sikhs who had nothing to do with any militancy.

      The truth of the genocide is hopefully now fully known, and those butchers still need bringing to justice.

      This does not mean the full truth of Bhindrawale should be kept quiet, as what he said incited people to violence, he used hate as a passion to stir his followers, and we have seen when people like Giani Partap Singh, former jathedar at Golden temple, criticised him, they got killed

    88. Rumbold — on 12th January, 2010 at 2:49 PM  

      Dalbir:

      I agree. There is certainly complicity amonst some government officials as well as use of state resources. I just don’t think it was plannned by the state (though they did nothing to stop it and didn’t seem to mind).

      Nobody’s Hero:

      I certainly wasn’t trying to excuse or lessen the impact. See here for a fuller explaination of my views:

      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/6400

    89. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 3:16 PM  

      Lets say Bhindrawale had killed 2 men.He is surrounded by the indian army.There is no need to attack the golden temple which let to the loss of thousand innocent lives.General Brar said he could not containerize the temple complex because of the threat from the sikh peasants .But after storming the golden temple , his army easily keeps the whole of punjab under curfew for a month. The indian army is a joke inept and incompetent, like they showed during the bombay hotel attack .They killed nearly as many people as the islamists

    90. Kulvinder — on 12th January, 2010 at 3:23 PM  

      Kulvinder it is not the complex that is religious but the people that are there that make it so. As Sikhs we do no worship idols nor buildings.

      whatever, you don’t need an army to arrest a man unless he and his fanatical lunatic theocratic anti-intellectual despotic and probably inbred followers fortify themselves inside insert building name of choice

      Still if nothing else watching the various conspiracy theories from the usual nutjobs is fun. I particularly like the way you demented lot tie yourselves in knots espousing what bhindarwale actually meant, and how great he and the sikhs are with the fact him and his theocratic arsehole supporters got their arses kicked, and thankfully killed.

      That should be his epitaph

      ‘I’m so fucking great oh aren’t we sikhs brilliant; oh didn’t i fail completely in everything i was trying to achieve’

      Go on guys get into the spirit of things the defacto end of the theocrats was actually a victory for sikhs because
      a)we’re great
      b)we’re super
      c)we’re always winners!

      So anyway dalbir, i hear bhindranwale was white. Even imaging that must be a mind fuck for you, eh?

    91. Ravinder — on 12th January, 2010 at 4:31 PM  

      Kulvinder,

      It seems that you lack the relevant intellect to hold a conversation and put forward a resonable supported theory behind your views.
      Perhaps your not a fair reflection on the child your parents have raised or perhaps they neglected to provide you with the love and nurturing a child needs. hence you resorting to speaking ill of the dead and those unable to defend themselves with nothing more but off the cuff remarks designed to inflame and hurt sentiments.

      May Waheguru bless you so that you can find love in your life and share it with humanity around you.

      In this world we come with nothing and we leave with nothing. Utilise your time wisely what ever your Religion be the best that you can be at it.

    92. SSJOHAL — on 12th January, 2010 at 4:31 PM  

      His quote means very simply that the children of the Sikhs are children of Lions. Singh means Lion. If the children of non sikhs can carry wepons why can they not? Also all

      Ravinder, this is the quote ‘If the children of sheep and goats can bear arms, why cant the children of lions’ here Binderwale is refering to none Sikhs as sheep and goats. Some fucking saint he was.

    93. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 4:34 PM  

      kalbinder, true colours are flowing behind those big dictionary head banging words lies a religious bigot
      How long have you had this inferiority against sikhs ,is it a caste thing .

    94. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 4:39 PM  

      Now the arguement has moved to, Bhindrawale was not a sant there fore the golden temple attack was justified

    95. Ravinder — on 12th January, 2010 at 4:49 PM  

      SSJOHAL

      From your exerpt yes it would appear in the context that you are using it for that he is refering to non Sikhs as sheeps and goats, for a fairer and fuller honest response you might want to list the full speech in which this sentance was used so as to every reader of this post can see the context in which it was used.

      No one said that Saints arent allowed to have a sense of humour. what he has said doesn’t carry any offence, if your paid to do a job you do as your told that makes you a sheep as your not allowed independant thought outside of your instructions. Just as a shephered tends to his flock? Or a infantry to their General ??

    96. SSJOHAL — on 12th January, 2010 at 4:51 PM  

      All I meant was that it is unclear how much there was a central hand directing the massacres, as the evidence suggests it was a mob that had help/was composed partly of government officials. Obviously there were a few high ups who were involved,

      The massacre was not carried out by hindus but by the goondas of the Congress party. When Rajeeev Ghandi was asked about the killings he replied ‘when big tree falls it shakes the earth’ Have any you guys read the report ‘Who’s Guilty’ which was produced by union of civil liberty?

    97. Dalbir — on 12th January, 2010 at 5:04 PM  

      Still if nothing else watching the various conspiracy theories from the usual nutjobs is fun. I particularly like the way you demented lot tie yourselves in knots espousing what bhindarwale actually meant, and how great he and the sikhs are with the fact him and his theocratic arsehole supporters got their arses kicked, and thankfully killed.

      That should be his epitaph

      You could talk such crap about a lot of the Singh shaheeeds of old, that all, if not the vast majority of Sikhs revere, be that Banda Singh, Mehtab Singh, Baba Deep Singh. If you’ve had a Sikh upbringing you should be able add a lot more to the list.

      I’m not blindly supporting all of what Bhindranwale did in any case because I am unsure of the truth in the face of so much propaganda. But even if we take your argument at face value. Is it justification for the slaughter of the innocent pilgrims at Harmandir Sahib? I guess they were just acceptable collateral damage? Does it justify the slaughter at Delhi of urban everyday Joe Sikhs and the sick decade that followed? Have you heard of Jaswant Singh Khalra?

      Bhindranwale made his point and died. I have to say though, he died fighting an army, not killing civilians.

      Even Satwant Singh and Beant Singh directly targeted the perceived cause of the attack on Sikhs, not innocent Hindus with their political assassination. I don’t agree with much of what happened back then but nothing, I repeat nothing justifies killing innocent non-combatant people, and I condemn anyone on any side that did that. Double for Sikhs.

      But whilst we can expect such behaviour from any terrorists how can government officials okay the same?

      ‘I’m so fucking great oh aren’t we sikhs brilliant; oh didn’t i fail completely in everything i was trying to achieve’

      Go on guys get into the spirit of things the defacto end of the theocrats was actually a victory for sikhs because
      a)we’re great
      b)we’re super
      c)we’re always winners!

      I’m not one of those blind supremacist phudus deary! Singhs have their own flaws like the rest of humanity. Our biggest sin is our failure to live up to the high ideals enshrined in our way of life. I put my hands up and say I am as guilty as the next person in this, actually probably more. If you’ve ever paid attention to anything I’ve said (asides the sarky snipes at ‘whitey’), if I haven’t made it clear before I will now. I believe that the Sikh community needs to do a lot of reflection in many areas as a quom. By this I don’t just mean 1984, I include the the drugs issues, female foeticide, corrupt politics at Amritsar. We have positives and negatives, and we need to confront the negatives and not hide from them. That is a must for progression and to remove things that have crept into our society which are unacceptable. I don’t think we do this enough by far. So whoever you are accusing of the above, I don’t think I am guilty of it?

      So anyway dalbir, i hear bhindranwale was white. Even imaging that must be a mind fuck for you, eh?

      You lot take the whitey thing too seriously, I was just trying to expose people to the kind of crap many of us have to experience all the time. lol

      Anyway, whatever, I know Sikhs have recovered from MUCH WORSE than this in the past and if it is in hukam we will again. Lately I have noticed a fair few people in the diaspora examining and probing their faith to a depth I haven’t seen before and I hope and pray that we improve as a community and as individuals as a result.

      Kulvinder, you should we never forget things like this (examine the ardas!) and I know we will never forget 1984, it is a part of out itihaas. I just hope we draw appropriate lessons from it collectively and individually.

      Sorry for the long post folks.

    98. SSJOHAL — on 12th January, 2010 at 5:05 PM  

      for a fairer and fuller honest response you might want to list the full speech in which this sentance was used so as to every reader of this post can see the context in which it was used.

      Ravinder,

      I do not have the above. If you have please post.

    99. Ravinder — on 12th January, 2010 at 5:06 PM  

      The 1984 Sikh Roits | The Indian Government’s Rewards to Rioters and Hooligans

      H K L Bhagat

      Bhagat was named as one of the accused in the 1984 Anti-Sikh riots and is believed in certain quarters to be guilty of inciting protestors. He was indicted by the Nanavati Commission, and riot victims testified that he led a mob and incited them to murder. He was never prosecuted or proven guilty.

      Won his first Lok Sabha election in 1980 from the East Delhi constituency in Delhi.
      Held important ministerial berths including Information & Broadcasting
      Bhagat died In 2005He was suffering from Alzheimer’s disease.

      Sajjan Kumar

      India’s The Asian Age newspaper quoted Gurcharan Singh as narrating: “Sajjan Kumar told the rioters: ‘Is mohalle ka ek bhi sardar zinda nahin bachna chahiye. In kutton ko saza deni hai (Not even a single Sikh here must escape alive. These dogs must be punished).’ He had come there specifically to direct the rioters, who were mostly from surrounding villages and bastis, but led by one of his henchmen, Kirpa Ram,”

      Positions Held

      1977 General Secretary, Pradesh Congress Committee (PCC), Delhi
      1980 Elected to 7th Lok Sabha
      Member, Consultative Committee, Ministry of Works and Housing (for five years)
      1991 Re-elected to 10th Lok Sabha (2nd term)
      2004 Elected to 14th Lok Sabha (3rd term)
      Member, Committee on Urban Development
      Member, Committee on Members of Parliament Local Area Development Scheme

      Jagdish Tytler

      Two eyewitnesses, Jasbir Singh and Surinder Singh. The two witnesses have stated that they saw Jagdish Tytler lead a mob during the riots, but did not want to come to India as they feared for their security.

      Minister for Civil Aviation under Prime Minister Sh. Rajiv Gandhi
      Minister for Tourism under Prime Minister Sh. Rajiv Gandhi
      Minister for Labour under Prime Minister Sh. Rajiv Gandhi
      Minister for Food Processing under Prime Minister Sh. Rajiv Gandhi
      Minister for Surface Transport under Prime Minister Sh. PV Narasimha Rao
      Minister for Coal under Prime Minister Sh. PV Narasimha Rao
      Minister of State for Overseas Indian Affairs (Independent Charge) and Member of Parliament (Delhi Sadar).

      Rule of law must prevail for democracy to thrive. Congress or BJP must stop supporting rioters and punish those involved in any riots. SIKH , HINDU , MUSLIM , CHRISTIAN all are human beings and being Indian Citizens have right to justice.

    100. Ravinder — on 12th January, 2010 at 5:25 PM  

      SSJOHAL — on 12th January, 2010 at 10:07 AM

      The following is quote from one of is speeches ‘ If the children of sheep and goats can bear arms, why cant the children of lions.What does this mean?

      Brother it was you that posted the original exerpt, from where did you get it?

    101. SSJOHAL — on 12th January, 2010 at 6:58 PM  

      Brother it was you that posted the original exerpt, from where did you get it?

      Ravinder, I first heard these speeches in 1984, I dont have any recordings but I will try to find them on the net.

      Maybe Dogra at 72 can be of help.

      Ravinder, do you know what happened to Baljit Kaur who killed Binderwale’s right hand man Mr Sodhi

    102. kELvi — on 12th January, 2010 at 6:59 PM  

      I am shocked at teh abysmal state of knowledge about Sikhi tradition among those who call themselves Sikh. Baptism is a Christian rite and has nothing to do with Sikhism. One who is baptised is admitted to the grace of the Abrahamic god and offered a chance to go to heaven upon death. Sikhi does not say anything about receiving amrit, opening the doors of “heaven” to some and dispatching others to hell.

    103. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 10:39 PM  

      Ravinder, do you know what happened to Baljit Kaur who killed Binderwale’s right hand man Mr Sodhi
      Celebrating murderers now

    104. nobodys hero — on 12th January, 2010 at 10:44 PM  

      Congress has made Jagdish Tytler, accused in the 1984 anti-Sikh massacre in Delhi, incharge of Bihar.

    105. dogra — on 13th January, 2010 at 10:07 AM  

      “Ravinder, do you know what happened to Baljit Kaur who killed Binderwale’s right hand man Mr Sodhi”

      She was tortured in the golden temple complex, when did the golden temple become a torture house!!
      Surinder singh Chinda was involved.

      “During a public speech delivered on May 24, 1984 at the Darbar Sahib complex, Bhindranwale openly admitted his complicity in the gruesome beheading of Surinder Singh Chinda for his role in the elimination of Bhindranwale’s leading hit man, Surinder Singh Sodhi.62

      http://www.sikhtimes.com/bios_060604a.html

    106. SSJOHAL — on 13th January, 2010 at 12:40 PM  

      She was tortured in the golden temple complex, when did the golden temple become a torture house.

      Ravinder, and her decapitated body was dumped on the GT Road. People living in the vicinity of the complex use to hear creams of people being tortured. But you are under the complete spell of Binderwale.

      Most dangerous is that eye
      Which sees all but remains frostlike,
      Most dangerous is the moon
      Which rises in the numb yard
      After each murder,
      But does not pierce your eyes like hot chillies

    107. nobodys hero — on 13th January, 2010 at 4:02 PM  

      In the india parliament are housed two terrorist, sajjan kumar and jagtish tytler, who responsible for more than 5000 murders .They are protected with by arm guards and courts from natural and legal justice.So when the Lashkar-e-Taiba attacked the indian parliament they were administring natural justice and a fight against terrorist. If innocent people died sorry collateral damage.Shit happens.

    108. Anti Fanatic — on 13th January, 2010 at 4:11 PM  

      No bodys hero, as much blame you are laying on the corrupt politicians of the congress you should be equally blaming binderwale & his supporters, who were nothing more than cold blooded killers masquerading as Sikhs. Him & his supporters were one of the main reasons for everything that took place in the 80’s, as well as for tarnishing the image of Sikhs.

    109. Anti Fanatic — on 13th January, 2010 at 4:23 PM  

      So when the Lashkar-e-Taiba attacked the indian parliament they were administring natural justice and a fight against terrorist. If innocent people died sorry collateral damage.Shit happens.
      So now your a supporter of Islamic terrorists too & if innocents die so what, shit happens! You know what your seriously twisted in the head.Go see a psychologist regarding your suppressed anger

    110. nobodys hero — on 13th January, 2010 at 4:54 PM  

      how many people did he murder , we ,ve had 3 so far. Baljit kaur some sikh priest and a news paper editor.Plus the silly accusation of sheeps and goats and having weapons of mass destructions so he could kill 5000 people a hour.Seriously how would he kill 5000 people per hour, would they line up for their executioners. And would reloading and cleaning the weapons be included in the hour or is that time out

    111. nobodys hero — on 13th January, 2010 at 4:55 PM  

      New Delhi: Former Congress MP Sajjan Kumar instigated a mob of around 300-400 people in two places in Delhi on November 1, 1984, to kill Sikhs and pillage their houses, the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) said in its charge sheet before a city court on Wednesday.

      The CBI filed chargesheets against Sajjan Kumar and others in two cases of the 1984 anti-Sikh riots before Chief Metropolitan Magistrate Kaveri Baweja at the Tis Hazari Court here. This is the first time the CBI has chargesheeted Sajjan Kumar.

      “Investigations conducted by us revealed that after the assassination of Indira Gandhi, the then prime minister, on October 30, 1984, Sajjan Kumar, the then MP from Outer Delhi constituency, instigated a mob of about 300-400 persons, assembled at B-2 Block park at Sultanpuri to kill, burn the people of the Sikh community as they had killed Gandhi, and also to loot and burn their houses,” said a CBI spokesman in Delhi.

      “Investigations further established that provocative speeches with common object as aforesaid made by the then MP to the mob gathered in the area of Sultanpuri, promoted instant and violent enmity against Sikhs and disturbed the harmony between two religious groups/communities of the locality, which resulted in the killings of Sikhs and burning and looting of their houses.”

      “As a result of this provocative instigation of Sajjan Kumar, an unlawful assembly armed with deadly weapons like lathis, ballams, kerosene oil, guns etc. damaged the gurudwara of C Block and other blocks of Sultanpuri, set them on fire, went through several streets killing Sikhs, destroyed their properties by looting and burning their houses, and took away their dead bodies,” the spokesman said.

      The CBI said the riots resulted in the killing of Hoshiar Singh, Mohan Singh, Ranjeet Singh, Basant Singh and his two sons Balbir Singh and Balihar Singh, and many others.

      “Investigations further disclosed that Sajjan Kumar led an unlawful assembly, including four other accused persons armed with iron rod, kerosene oil, danda and swords, with common object entered into B-2 Block, Sultanpuri on November 1, 1984 killed one Surjeet Singh,” the spokesman said.

      The First Information Reports (FIRs) were registered at the Sultanpuri police station.

      The CBI spokesman said Sajjan Kumar also incited a mob in Raj Nagar of Palam area in southwest Delhi to attack and set on fire a gurdwara, burnt vehicles and houses of Sikhs. The mob also caught hold of Nirmal Singh and burnt him alive.

      “Sajjan Kumar arrived in Raj Nagar in his Ambassador car around 10 pm on November 1, 1984. He instigated the unlawful assembly by provoking it not to leave any Sikh alive, besides not even sparing any Hindus who had provided shelter to Sikhs,” the spokesman said.

      “After instigating the unlawful assembly, Sajjan Kumar left Raj Nagar and the mob looted the house of Jagsher Singh and thereafter set it on fire. The mob also looted houses of other Sikhs residing in that area, and also attacked the house of (a person called) Rajni where Raghuvinder Singh, Narender Pal Singh and Kuldeep Singh had taken shelter,” the CBI spokesman said.

      “The mob then burnt alive Raghuvinder Singh, Narender Pal Singh and Kuldeep Singh in Raj Nagar area on the morning of Nov 2, 1984,” the spokesman added.

      A case was later registered at the Delhi Cantonment police station. After considering the findings of the Nanavati Commission, home ministry directed the CBI five years ago to re-investigate the cases concerning the involvement of Sajjan Kumar.

    112. Kulvinder — on 13th January, 2010 at 4:55 PM  

      How long have you had this inferiority against sikhs

      Since i met you; because you’re so great!

      Does it justify the slaughter at Delhi of urban everyday Joe Sikhs and the sick decade that followed?

      Noone said it was.

      Bhindranwale made his point and died. I have to say though, he died fighting an army, not killing civilians.

      There was no ‘heroism’ in his death, only cowardice. He hid behind his carefully cultivated fanatical followers, he hid behind them and after they were killed so was he.

      And once more with the moral twister;

      bhanderwala wasn’t for a theocratic state

      ‘well no he never explicitly ruled on out, but any sane individual who wasn’t a theocrat would have done, its a bit like asking ‘are you seeking to create a despotic regime’ and the interviee replying ‘well maybe i am maybe im not, if there is a despotic regime i won’t say no’

      says alot about the interviewee

      He didn’t even have the courage of his convictions, the backbone to say what he meant. Instead he set up an anti-democratic theocracy within his own personal fiefdom at the golden temple

      bandherwala was so humble, he wasn’t a cynic he espoused the true meaning of sikhism

      he was afraid, he was so afraid and such a coward, and so majestic in his self regard he took it upon himself to go to the golden temple and set up there as his personal palace.

      Now if i tried that, got a load of guns and a set up camp there with my word being law; you’d all be screaming your heads of, but no bandherwala was a ‘good sikh’

      the fact he took such an action was because he wasn’t ‘heroic’ and scared shitless seems to escape his apologists

      and finally

      he was a man who died a mans death fighting an army etc etc etc

      It would have taken more courage, more backbone and more humility to surrender to the authorities and allow his followers to live.

      What an ego.

      So anyway what was jasjit saying, the impact of the pogroms on british sikhs, and they only want justice, they aren’t theocratic nutters? yeah because the comments above suggest the exact opposite, amirite?

    113. Kulvinder — on 13th January, 2010 at 4:57 PM  

      how many people did he murder

      How many people has Osama bin laden killed? Actually how many people did Sonia Gandhi murder? we can all play that rhetorical game

    114. Dalbir — on 13th January, 2010 at 6:48 PM  

      Kulvinder

      You’re as guilty of reading what you want onto the situation as anyone else.

      But well done for distracting the conversation away from justice for the innocents in all this.

      Bhindranwale is gone, the survivors of the massacres aren’t.

      No one is about to grab AK-47s and try and take over Panjab right now. Hell, I’m suspicious of the Khalistanis here in that I don’t think most of them would leave their comfortable positions to go back to a K’stan if it did ever hypothetically emerge.

      The events of back then are so murky I don’t know how anyone can jump and claim to know exactly what went on. You talked about moving on. We should be fighting for the corner of the survivors of the faked ‘encounters’ and organised massacres. You don’t have to become a Bhindranwale supporter to do this.

    115. Comrade — on 13th January, 2010 at 7:25 PM  

      The flowing is an extract from longer article by Comrade Harsh Thakor who is a Naxalite in Punjab written in 2003. Its long but sorry

      The Khalistani Movement-Introduction

      The Khalistani movement marked a historic epic in the history of post-Independent India. This reactionary communal fascist movement advocated the liberation of Sikhs and a separate state to be carved out for the Sikh people. Khalistani ideology advocated a separate theocratic state based on all the tenets of Sikhism.

      Jagjit Singh Chauhan was the founder of this movement in the late 60’s abroad. Natively from Punjab he had settled abroad, and in Britain formed Sikh religious groups advocating a new state for the Sikhs.

      The Khalistani dictates included a ban on cigarettes, a ban on eating meat, a ban on drinking liquor, a ban on beauty parlours, prohibition against shaving and compulsion of women to wear Salwar Kameez. The people had to observe the Khalistani code in all ways of life.

      In Punjab the Akali Dal represented the religious Sikh politics through the Akali movement which had its origin in the Singh Sabha movement of the late 1920’s which tried to communalise a secular anti-imperialist movement. To divert it, the Shiromani Gurudwara Prabhandak committee was formed with the blessings of the British.

      The Akali movement professed the Anandpur Sahib resolution that converted several democratic issues into Sikh demands. Democratic demands of the people like the arrest of the Jodhpur detenues, the sharing of river waters with Haryana, the transfer of the capital from Chandigarh to Amritsar, and the punishing of criminals during the Delhi riots were taken up as religious issues.

      However the fundamental difference of the Akali Dal from the Khalistanis was that they wanted to gain power within the Indian State through electoral means, while the Khalistanis advocated a total religious liberation struggle to de-throne the Indian State. There were forces within the Akali Dal which openly supported the Khalistani armed actions and election boycott, like the United Akali Dal faction led by Baba Joginder Singh. In the mid 80’ Sant Longowal, the Akali Dal president was assassinated by the Khalistanis for collaborating on a settlement with the ruling Congress.

      From the early 80’s to the early part of the 90’s the state of Punjab was ravaged by Khalistani terrorism. Communal fascists were a great threat to the people’s democratic movement. The Akali Dal represented the Sikh communalists while the Congress represented the Hindu communalism. Both parties used the communal terrorists against each other.

      Indira Gandhi created Bhindranwale, a Sikh communal fanatic, to electorally defeat the Akali Dal. Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale belonged to a Sikh fundamentalist sect which opposed the electoral Akali Dal politics. In the earlier phases the Akali Dal patronized the Sikh fundamentalist forces, harbouring several terrorists in religious temples. However when the contradiction between the Khalistani liberation and Akali Dal ideology became acute, the Congress won Bhindranwale to their side to de-stabilise the Akali Dal, the ruling party.

      The Khalistani movement was an agent of the Indian state. Heavy state terrorism took place in Punjab against the common people in the name of combating the communal terrorists. Often a truckload of weaponry sent for arming the Khalistani terrorist forces was allowed by the Police. The situation was reminiscent of the Vietnam war and in no post-partition period was such communal terror experienced. The rays of darkness had extinguished the light from the land of Punjab.

      The Khalistanis were armed to the core. Innocent Hindus were shot in buses by bullets from AK-47 machine guns. Women were raped who disobeyed the Khalistani dictates, houses razed to the ground. Villagers were forced to bow to Khalistani dictates at the butt of the gun. Jounnalist Lala Jagat Narain, of the Hindu Samachar was assassinated when he condemned Bhindranwale.

      In 1984 in June the Indian Army carried out Operation Bluestar to suppress the Forces of Khalistani terrorists that had taken refuge in the Golden Temple (a Sikh religious temple). It was one of the most repressive anti-democratic acts that took place in the history of post-Independence India. 100 innocent Sikhs were shot with their hands tied down behind their backs. Various religious shrines were destroyed. Bhindranwale was killed.

      At that time in Jodhpur in anxiety Sikhs belonging to the Army in sheer desperation left Jodhpur to ensure their families were safe in the chaos that was created. They were frightened that their families could be attacked. These soldiers were arrested in the name of treason! In retaliation in October 1984, Indira Gandhi was assasinated by 2 Sikh fanatics. One of the people charged, Kehar Singh who was awarded the death sentence, was innocent.

      After Indira Gandh’s assassination the worst massace ever in post-independence India took place. 5000 Sikhs, were massacred by communal forces led by Jagdish Tytler and L.K Bhagat. Innocent Sikhs were chopped or burnt alive. Several Hindu families came to the rescue of Sikhs by sheltering them and saving them from being trampled by the iron feet of oppression. To this day the perpetrators of the massacre have not been imprisoned.

      In the later phase, through military combing operations in Operation Woodrose, the police tortured several innocent families, under the pretext that they had been harbouring terrorists. In villages in Punjab several innocent Sikh people, mainly youth were killed in staged encounters. The police falsely claimed that they were communal terrorists killed in encounters.

      Several Black laws were also proclaimed which were used as a tool to suppress the secular democratic activity like workers strikes, etc. The situation in Punjab was the equivalent of a ship trying to survive in a storm. In 1985 an accord was made by Rajiv Gandhi representing the Centre and Sant Longowal, the Sikh Akali leader, who wished for a non-violent solution and a compromise with the Centre. (He represented Sikh communal politics but through negotiation in contrast to the Khalistani militants.) This was opposed by the United Akali Dal led by Baba Joginder Singh along with the All India Sikh Students federation and the Damdami Taksal of Bhindranwale. Shortly later Longowal was assassinated by Khalistani rerrorists with the blessings of the organizations just mentioned.

      In 1987 the ruling Rajiv Gandhi goverment brought in President’s Rule, introducing the Terrorist and Disruptive Area Act to curb the Khalistani terrorists. However, in contrast to what it meant to be doing, the same government started dealing with Khalistani gangs. On February 20th 1987 a head Sikh priest offered to act as a mediator between the Centre and the Sikh militant organizations. Within minutes of this announcement, the Khalistani liberation force accepted the Akal Takhts Directives and accepted a ceasefire.

      Soon after a hindu religious priest visited the Golden Temple on May 6-8 to hold talks with the Sikh militant priest Darshan Singh Ragi. The State police chief Ribiero visited Amritsar on May 6th, and the Ceentral Reserve Police Force surrounding the Temple were withdrawn for 3 days. Well-known underground communal terrorists, such as Avatar Singh Brahma visited the temple for negotiations. The Hindu priest explained that he was acting for the Central Government. The withdrawal of the Central Reserve Police Force for the first time since 1984 lent credibility to this. The Priest even claimed that he had documents showing that all 5 Jathedars and Khalistani gangs including the All India Sikh Students Federation factions and the Khalistani Commando force had given their approval for, and participated in tape recorded negotiations. The priest stated that Darshan Singh Ragi was equally anxious to create an atmosphere of peace and tranquility in Punjab. On May 9th 1987 the priest flew back to Delhi to inform the Prime Minister of his talks.

      On May 21st the Punjab Government announced the release of 100 out of 800 militants arrested on the pretext of good behaviour. This amply proved the point that the Centre was simply playing games. The Government had no intention of combating communal terrorism; instead it was biding for the appropriate time to strike a deal with one or the other terrorist faction. Ultimately what was at stake was only the question of allocation and sharing of power. [Last few paragraphs taken from the democratic rights journal, ‘In Defence of Democratic Right

    116. Dalbir — on 13th January, 2010 at 7:55 PM  

      Comrade, couln’t you have posted a synopsis and a link to the source instead of the whole thing?

    117. nobodys hero — on 13th January, 2010 at 9:38 PM  

      its no game , how many murders was he reponsible for.3 fucking 3 no big words here just a small number. The Indian army killed over a 1000 PEOPLE to capture or neutralise ONE Bhindrawale

    118. nobodys hero — on 13th January, 2010 at 10:41 PM  

      The indian army does not have snipers? how many tall buildings overlook the golden temple.An average British army sniper could easily take out a standing target from 500 metres. General brar you be charged with genocide

    119. Comrade — on 13th January, 2010 at 10:55 PM  

      Nobodys hero,

    120. Parvinder — on 13th January, 2010 at 11:55 PM  

      115 Comrade - interesting.
      Question, isn’t Comrade Harsh Thakor from the CPI (M)?

      I don’t think any party or politician comes out of this period as angels, including Bhindranwale, Congress and the Akalis. This should also include the two Communist Parties. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t they initially support Operation Bluestar? and haven’t the CPI (M) propped up countless Congress (I) Party coalitions during the past 25 years? And waited till 2005 to raise the issue of the 1984 pogroms? Shaheed Bhagat Singh would be turning in his grave.

      Although I can go along with some of Thakor’s analysis, he omits the evidence that point to police collusion with some of the militant outfits.
      Also, communists (or should I say Stalinists), tend to see anyone of religious persuasion as communal which is unfair. I suppose they are bound to as they’re a bunch of athiests. What’s happend to the ‘tribune of the people’? siding with the oppressed? What about the courageous work of left leaning human rights workers like Jaswant Singh Khalra and Ram Narayan Kumar?

    121. dogra — on 14th January, 2010 at 9:07 AM  

      “.Seriously how would he kill 5000 people per hour, would they line up for their executioners. And would reloading and cleaning the weapons be included in the hour or is that time out

      Dear me do yopu not understand incitment to violence, he incited people to violence, and thats a fact.

      Thde butchers in delhi need bringing to justice like Sajan Kumar, who incited violence, these people need hanging, who they were, what faith they were is irrelevant they are butchers pure and simple, disgusting human beings, and condemnable, they are NOT SAINTS!!

    122. nobodys hero — on 14th January, 2010 at 9:21 AM  

      bhindrawale had 500 hard core followers at the time .No complex party activists structure supporting him with the asistance of the policeforce like Sajjan and tytler.
      Yes he made some silly remarks, was he capable of carrying them out?. All his alleged murders were political, but were not random joe public killings like the congress officials

    123. nobodys hero — on 14th January, 2010 at 9:25 AM  

      Shaheed Bhagat Singh would be turning in his grave, was he not a terrorist. i see freedom fighter or terrorist syndrome. It all depends on the colours you wear

    124. dogra — on 14th January, 2010 at 10:01 AM  

      “Yes he made some silly remarks, was he capable of carrying them out?. ”

      dear me, those remarks carried weight as it was from him, you seem incapable of condemning thsoe remarks, fair enough your choice, who cares hey, they were only against Hindu faith people.

      Jagdish Tyler, Sajan Kumar all condemnede for their incitement without reservation, no ifs no buts.#

      “Shaheed Bhagat Singh would be turning in his grave, was he not a terrorist. i see freedom fighter or terrorist syndrome. It all depends on the colours you wear

      Shaeed Bhagat Singh did not incite to violence like fascist Bhindrawale, did he? he was a freedom fighter as innocent people were not killed by him or any incitement

    125. dogra — on 14th January, 2010 at 10:06 AM  

      Lets not forget people like Giani Partap Singh, who spoke out against Bhinda, what happened to them?
      Bhinda, it was his way or the highway!

    126. Comrade — on 14th January, 2010 at 10:07 AM  

      Question, isn’t Comrade Harsh Thakor from the CPI (M)?

      I think he will find that insulting, He was from the Naxalites. If you know the history of the movement you will understand. The subject is not the communist party’s of India, but they did pay a heavy price during the dark days in punjab more of their leaders were killed by the Khalistanis then other party.

    127. dogra — on 14th January, 2010 at 10:30 AM  

      comrade can you put the link up from Harsh Thakor, thank you

    128. nobodys hero — on 14th January, 2010 at 1:49 PM  

      How many people did bhindrawale kill because of their religion alone with out any politics. How many people did his followers kill randomly based on being a Hindu. One big fucking Zero. Bhagat singh was a terrorist. Thats why he was executed by the british. I suppose you will give a moral value to his murders.

    129. dogra — on 14th January, 2010 at 2:46 PM  

      “How many people did bhindrawale kill because of their religion alone with out any politics. How many people did his followers kill randomly based on being a Hindu. One big fucking Zero”

      oh dear, now thats not what human rights says, people being pulled of buses, Bhinda incited violemce and thats a fact, whether you like it or not.
      Probabaly u hate Hindus? like Bhinda, hence your denial.

      http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/10/17/india-time-deliver-justice-atrocities-punjab-
      states all sides.

      ps resorting to swearing, jeez,

    130. Comrade — on 14th January, 2010 at 3:32 PM  

      Dogra this the link

      http://massline.info/India/ht_MassRevLineDuringKhalistani.htm

      Nobodys hero, before you start comparing Shaheed Bhaghat Singh with that WANKER. Read the Following. To be honest with you Binderwale was masand

      http://www.shahidbhagatsingh.org

      Can you please tell me who a true Sikh and what basic ideals that he must live, Bhinderwale, General Brarr, Monmohan Singh, Badal Singh any body who wears the 5Ks, If Monmohan Singh name was [president of India] Monmohan Ram would you still regard him as a Sikh.

    131. nobodys hero — on 14th January, 2010 at 3:44 PM  

      why would bhindrawales men want to kill bus passengers for . He had enough enemies The congress indian intelligence the akali dal and the extreme hindu parties like the rss. Killing bus passengers is a well known indian intelligence ritual to provoke unrest

    132. Dalbir — on 14th January, 2010 at 3:53 PM  

      Plus people forget. The day before the attack on Harmandir Sahib, popular support had been organised for protest through withholding wheat exports from Panjab. Next day they attacked….

    133. Ravinder — on 14th January, 2010 at 3:54 PM  

      okay so I stayed off posting responses to SSJOHAL ;Dogra over the Baljit Kaur until I had done some research into it.

      So what did I learn, she was an integral part of an operation to murder a man. She was killed by the Sants supporters in retaliation.

      Personally speaking I dont feel sorry for her she is not innocent if there was any faith in the judicial system she should have been judged accordingly as India advocates the death sentance she would have died anyway.

      The gallant defender By A. R. Darshi would be a recommended read to you all.

      so to the main point, 1984 the Indian Army under direction of the Indian Govt attacked the Darbar Shahib.
      They used the pretext of a Militant Fanatical Terrorist in the form of Sant Jarnail Singh to achieve this. This is the same chap that the govt initally coveted.

      The govt expel all foreign media and intiated what results in a Sikh Genocide that is wholly supported by them and their police and army.

      My question is this if Osama Bin Laden is hiding in Mecca would it be right to target the Kabbah?

      when you think of terrorists he is the bench mark, the check list so to speak of terrorist leadership. The Sant in comparision is just that a Sant.

      So stop trying to utilse one man as an excuse but look at what has happened to the Sikh faith and why it was attacked, how to this day it is still being attacked.

    134. dogra — on 14th January, 2010 at 4:08 PM  

      “why would bhindrawales men want to kill bus passengers for . ”

      again, he incited violence as stated, his followers would dump cows heads in temples to stir communal poison, he said he wanted hindus out of punjab, an ethnic cleansing edict.
      Fact is most Sikh faith people were not going to obey as the teachings of the Gurujis is not to hate unlike dark lord Bhindrawale and his followers!

    135. dogra — on 14th January, 2010 at 4:09 PM  

      “So what did I learn, she was an integral part of an operation to murder a man. She was killed by the Sants supporters in retaliation”

      She was killed and tortured in the golden temple complex, and when was Bhindrawale judge, jury and executioneer, Surinder singh sodhi was alleged to abused her, so what would her husband/boyfriend do in retaliation.

    136. dogra — on 14th January, 2010 at 4:13 PM  

      “So stop trying to utilse one man as an excuse but look at what has happened to the Sikh faith and why it was attacked, how to this day it is still being attacked.

      oh dear, as stated in previous posts the sacred Golden Temple should never have been attacked in the 1st place, but surrounded, with utilities cut off, until dark lord bhinda and his followers gave up.
      Sikh faith shows wonderful examples of humanity, and the butchers of the Sikh genocide in delhi still need bringing to justice.

    137. Ravinder — on 14th January, 2010 at 4:16 PM  

      dogra

      Where is the evidence that she was killed and tortured in the complex?

      Where is the evidence off abuse by Sodhi?

      “when was Bhindrawale judge, jury and executioneer”

      Never I have not found any credible evidence to suggest he was. Have you ? if so share it that is what forums are for.

      Your sprouting unfounded allegations unless you back them up with fact your doing nothing but being hysterical.

    138. dogra — on 14th January, 2010 at 4:31 PM  

      Ravinder, can you also check these people and how they died:

      “A few brave voices did speak up, both within the Golden Temple and from many of the Gurudwaras across the state. Among the most powerful of these voices was the venerable Giani Partap Singh, an old man of eighty by that time, one of the most revered spiritual leaders and a former Jathedar of the Akal Takht, who had openly attacked Bhindranwale for stocking arms and ammunition in the Akal Takht and described his occupation of the shrine as an act of sacrilege. He was shot dead at his home in Tahli Chowk. Other voices were raised; and swiftly silenced. They included Niranjan Singh, the Granthi of Gurudwara Toot Sahib; Granthi Surat Singh of Majauli; and Granthi Jarnail Singh of Valtoha. All those who spoke against Bhindranwale were his enemies; and all his enemies were enemies of the Faith. The Sikh religious leadership heard and understood the message; and they succumbed to their fear.

    139. dogra — on 14th January, 2010 at 4:32 PM  

      “Your sprouting unfounded allegations unless you back them up with fact your doing nothing but being hysterical.

      Well, these are allegations, you have found out she was killed, 1st step, next is who decided she killed sodhi, and why would she be involved in the first place?

    140. comrade.. — on 14th January, 2010 at 4:37 PM  

      Dogra

      http://massline.info/India/ht_MassRevLineDuringKhalistani.htm

    141. dogra — on 14th January, 2010 at 4:38 PM  

      Ravinder can you check these deaths by bhindas followers as well:

      “A few brave voices did speak up, both within the Golden Temple and from many of the Gurudwaras across the state. Among the most powerful of these voices was the venerable Giani Partap Singh, an old man of eighty by that time, one of the most revered spiritual leaders and a former Jathedar of the Akal Takht, who had openly attacked Bhindranwale for stocking arms and ammunition in the Akal Takht and described his occupation of the shrine as an act of sacrilege. He was shot dead at his home in Tahli Chowk. Other voices were raised; and swiftly silenced. They included Niranjan Singh, the Granthi of Gurudwara Toot Sahib; Granthi Surat Singh of Majauli; and Granthi Jarnail Singh of Valtoha. All those who spoke against Bhindranwale were his enemies; and all his enemies were enemies of the Faith. The Sikh religious leadership heard and understood the message; and they succumbed to their fear.

    142. Ravinder — on 14th January, 2010 at 4:52 PM  

      Dogra

      A few brave voices did speak up, both within the Golden Temple and from many of the Gurudwaras across the state. Among the most powerful of these voices was the venerable Giani Partap Singh, an old man of eighty by that time, one of the most revered spiritual leaders and a former Jathedar of the Akal Takht, who had openly attacked Bhindranwale for stocking arms and ammunition in the Akal Takht and described his occupation of the shrine as an act of sacrilege. He was shot dead at his home in Tahli Chowk. Other voices were raised; and swiftly silenced. They included Niranjan Singh, the Granthi of Gurudwara Toot Sahib; Granthi Surat Singh of Majauli; and Granthi Jarnail Singh of Valtoha. All those who spoke against Bhindranwale were his enemies; and all his enemies were enemies of the Faith. The Sikh religious leadership heard and understood the message; and they succumbed to their fear.

      Whose account is this taken from? This is just a paragraph of incidents where is the PROOF, CREDIBLE PROOF??? All I want to see is PROOF then I will believe

    143. Dalbir — on 14th January, 2010 at 6:26 PM  

      Talk about going around in circles……….

    144. Ravinder — on 14th January, 2010 at 6:39 PM  

      An article for all to read.

      http://www.emgonline.co.uk/news.php?news=8335

    145. dogra7 — on 14th January, 2010 at 8:25 PM  

      Ravinder,

      here is the link:
      http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publication/nightsoffalsehood/falsehood4.htm

      Now those individuals, take Giani Partap Singh, what happened to him, how did he die?

    146. comrade.. — on 14th January, 2010 at 10:18 PM  

      Dogra,
      Dogra

      Among the most noble sagas of this resistance was the dauntless courage of the families of comrade Balwinder Singh and his wife Jagdish Kaur, and of Major Singh. Fired by ideology, these active members of the CPI(M) transformed their homes on two ends of Bhikiwind village, one of the areas worst affected by terrorism, into solitary fortresses. Here they fought through and survived dozens of terrorist attacks, including two in which rocket launchers were used.

      These were my comrades true Sikh Warriors , I with met in Punjab in 1988. There was Comrade from Harshshina Village Amaritsar with whom I had stayed the night, he was kidnapped, tortured and his decapited head was left on the school wall. These Khalistani can deny all the atrocities they have committed, but they wont wash me. good post, the ties with the link in interduced.

    147. comrade.. — on 14th January, 2010 at 10:25 PM  

      Dogra,

      Among the most noble sagas of this resistance was the dauntless courage of the families of comrade Balwinder Singh and his wife Jagdish Kaur, and of Major Singh. Fired by ideology, these active members of the CPI(M) transformed their homes on two ends of Bhikiwind village, one of the areas worst affected by terrorism, into solitary fortresses. Here they fought through and survived dozens of terrorist attacks, including two in which rocket launchers were used.

      These were my comrades true Sikh Warriors , I met in Punjab in 1988. There was Comrade from Harshshina Village Amaritsar with whom I had stayed the night, he was kidnapped, tortured and his decapited head was left on the school wall. These Khalistani can deny all the atrocities they have committed, but they won’t wash with me. good post, this ties with the link I introduced.

    148. comrade.. — on 14th January, 2010 at 10:38 PM  

      Dalbir, Pavinder can you explain to me who is a true Sikh and who is not. Monmohan Singh is Sikh well as Binderwale. General Brarr, Badal Sahib, I am confused, I need help may Mr Nobodys Hero can be of help.

    149. dogra — on 15th January, 2010 at 8:21 AM  

      Comrade thankyou or the link,


      These Khalistani can deny all the atrocities they have committed, but they won’t wash with me.”

      Exactly Comrade, any excuse they will come out wit hto deny Fascist Bhinda, they cant even condemn his fascist edicts on Hindus leaving Punjab, and killing innocent 5000 Hindus, disgrace!

    150. Ravinder — on 15th January, 2010 at 9:25 AM  

      Dogra7

      thank you for your link I asked for CREDIBLE PROOF.
      You have supplied a link for an article written by a mass murderer.
      K.P.S. Gill has no integrity no honour and no truth in him.

      Get me and every reader CREDIBLE PROOF. So far all accusations have been unfounded.
      Where do people get off sprouting unfounded accusations bismirching the reputations off others? What do you stand to gain?

    151. comrade.. — on 15th January, 2010 at 9:47 AM  

      Ravinder, the artical at the end gives references to certain writers, why don’t you do some research yourself and see if these people are all bogus. If you dig deep, you will find the truth, Because Guru Nanak Ji’ teaching were based on the truth and justice.

    152. Ravinder — on 15th January, 2010 at 10:11 AM  

      Comrade..

      I never stop researching, and you know what the integrity of every one of them can be questioned. When your on a payroll your not going to bite the hand that feeds you.

      It would be easier if Amnesty International had been allowed into the Punjab to verify all that has happened.
      The only reason the last 6 requests have not been apporved by the indian Govt is because they have to hide their lies and deceit.

      Why dont you campaign for Amnesty to go in and resolve this issue as your spreading the lies the Govt wants the world to believe.

      You mention Guru Nanak Ji’s teaching were based on the truth and justice to get to the Truth sometimes you have to fight.

    153. dogra — on 15th January, 2010 at 10:11 AM  

      “Where do people get off sprouting unfounded accusations bismirching the reputations off others? What do you stand to gain?

      Ravinder again, he made fascist remarks-FACT, you know Baljit Kaur was killed, Giani Partap Singh, and others who voiced protests against dark lord Bhinda were killed -fact, if KPS Gill is lying he can easily be found out on cases mentioned isnt it, and yes Human rights have stated Punjab police committed abuses and killings as well.
      u are quite clearly in denial of the incitements of Bhinda, now here is Bhinda in his own words:
      http://www.sikhtimes.com/bios_060604a.html
      “During a public speech delivered on May 24, 1984 at the Darbar Sahib complex, Bhindranwale openly admitted his complicity in the gruesome beheading of Surinder Singh Chinda for his role in the elimination of Bhindranwale’s leading hit man, Surinder Singh Sodhi.62

      Now tell me, what bismirching is going on, when Bhinda said it in his own words, u can deny till the cows gio home on fascist bhinda, but let me tell you, our relatives in punjab at the time would every day check the clock to ensure their dad reached home safely, as bhindas edicts caused great worry, and its only by chance he was not butchered!

    154. nobodys hero — on 15th January, 2010 at 10:38 AM  

      The truth is bhindrawale is a hero amongst practicing sikhs. Rightly so. If he was alive sajjan and tytler would would not be sitting in the indian parliament with the blood and ashes of 5000 sikhs on their hands .Natural justice would have be dispensed. Manmohan singh shame on.Indian sihs have no principles

    155. Ravinder — on 15th January, 2010 at 10:57 AM  

      Dogra

      Can you provide the Fascist remarks he made? When he made them? Who reported on them? There are many many videos can you point me to the right one?

      Baljit Kaur was killed and to put it bluntly so what she planned and excuted a plan to murder a man in cold blood. What has this got to do with bombing the Darbar? Use context to put this in the correct perspective.

      Giani Partap Singh again where is the evidence?

      I AM NOT IN DENIAL I JUST WONT FOLLOW ANYONE I BELEIVE IN THE MAHARAJ SHRI GURU GRANTH SHAHIB JI.

      I will question everything that is written and I am aggrived by the attack on the Darbar Shahib and I DO NOT accept that its right.

      I do not blame the Sant for being there just as I dont blame the thousands of pilgrims that were there.

      you have on the above link submitted an idividuals personal essay where he has researched the same sources that anyone could and is putting forward HIS PERSONAL views. There is no evidence for me to follow his point of view.

      Let me tell you what used to be said about a Khalsa Sikh in the villages in the Punjab through out India to women. That if ever in trouble or if it was late at night if they saw a Singh to go to him for he would protect her. That is the Legacy of Maharaj Guru Gobind Singh Ji he formed the Khalsa, he then became a part of the Khalsa. He never carved a kingdom he had riches beyond our wildest dreams he did not give them to the Sikhs!! What he gave is a universal brotherhood.

      If you are going to get caught up blaming 1 individual and allowing others to use that as an excuse for the attack on the Darbar Shahib you sir are a disgrace to humanity.

    156. comrade.. — on 15th January, 2010 at 11:26 AM  

      Ravinder, There was saying in Punjab in the Dark Days ‘ if Sardar wrapped in blanket caught the bus, all the rest of the passengers got off the next bus stop. Please don’t compare our great Guru’s with these Khalistanis. I don’t see them as Sikhs but as ‘Masands’ By the way I strongly condemn the unjustified attack on the Golden Temple and the police encounters, which were no more the extra judicial killing.

    157. Ravinder — on 15th January, 2010 at 12:00 PM  

      comrade..

      Thats the first time I have heard that particular saying.

      The Gurus give Sikhs the path to Chardi Kala that path is clearly defined, taking Amrit becoming a Khalsa becoming a saint soldier, living your life to help those that need it, contribute to the society around you, earn an honest living. You have the image the unshorn hair the turbans we have the martial art to protect and defend we have the Bani to lead us.

      It is not an easy path to take but you cannot change a religion to suit your needs or others insecurities it is what it is. Be part of it or find a different path. Everybody has the right and freedom to be what they want to be. The Khalsa Panth given to humanity by Maharaj Guru Gobind Singh Ji is the true Akal Purkh Ki Fauj. This is the evolution of a Sikh.

    158. dogra — on 15th January, 2010 at 12:11 PM  

      “Let me tell you what used to be said about a Khalsa Sikh in the villages in the Punjab through out India to women. That if ever in trouble or if it was late at night if they saw a Singh to go to him for he would protect her. That is the Legacy of Maharaj Guru Gobind Singh Ji he formed the Khalsa, he then became a part of the Khalsa. He never carved a kingdom he had riches beyond our wildest dreams he did not give them to the Sikhs!! What he gave is a universal brotherhood.


      Exactly and who is denying that, tell me, I wear a Kara in his honour.
      Now back to Bhindarwale the fascist, IMO, in the link i gave he said:
      “On August 17, 1983, Bhindranwale asked Sikh youth to buy a motorcycle and a revolver and threatened to kill 5,000 Hindus in an hour if the police delayed the minibus he had sent to fetch Amrik Singh who had just been released from police custody.59


      “On November 17, 1983, Bhindranwale bluntly demanded ‘that all Hindus should leave Punjab.’61

      These are factual statements.

      “I am aggrived by the attack on the Darbar Shahib and I DO NOT accept that its right.

      Agree with you, Golden temple should never have been attacked as there were other ways, and Indira is mostly to blame but dark lord bhinda was no innocent.

      Here is amnesty international:
      http://www.amnesty.ca/resource_centre/reports/view.php?load=arcview&article=479
      “The decade of violent political opposition in Punjab — which lasted from the mid-1980s to the mid-1990s — started when a movement within the Sikh community in Punjab turned to violence to achieve an independent state for the Sikhs. During that period armed opposition groups targeted and killed police officers, elected representatives and civil servants. The security forces resorted to unlawful and indiscriminate arrests, torture and extrajudicial executions. Thousands of civilians were the victims of the violence on both sides.

      Are amensty inetrnational not a reputable source, it states all sides not one.

    159. dogra — on 15th January, 2010 at 12:19 PM  

      “If you are going to get caught up blaming 1 individual and allowing others to use that as an excuse for the attack on the Darbar Shahib you sir are a disgrace to humanity.

      oh please do me a favour and stop using the above, have stated Golden Temple should not have been attacked, do not disagree with you on this point or butchers of delhi like Sajan Kumar who incited violence against innocent human beings, need bringing to justice, but no way am i going to keep quiet about bhindrawale, as his statements also led to blood shed as stated

    160. Ravinder — on 15th January, 2010 at 12:39 PM  

      dogra

      do this find all of Sant’s videos, audio extracts all his speaches set up a website and present them all there.

      Then utilise your time to bringing the Govt and its officials of that time to answer for the actions that they took. They are ALIVE and can be brought to JUSTICE.
      The Sant is dead why flog a dead horse? Dont be scared to fight for the truth dont be distracted go get it.

      Kirpa from maharaj you can be positive in what you do.

    161. dogra — on 15th January, 2010 at 1:01 PM  

      Ravinder, statements stated are the facts, no saint in the history of humanity ever incited violence towards another group.

      “Dont be scared to fight for the truth dont be distracted go get it.

      Im not scared, but on this topic, bhindrwale gets mentioned, and fair enough about him being flogging a dead horse.
      Agree about getting those killers in delhi, and did ask someone who posted an article on it(last year), that if we can support fight for justice of innocent people killed.

    162. Ravinder — on 15th January, 2010 at 2:59 PM  

      dogra

      No there is a distinct difference between a statement and a fact. I dont need to give you an English lesson.
      Was Mohammed not a prophet? Did he not pick up the sword? Is Islam therefore by your thinking wrong?

      You can metion the Sant all you like but get your facts right otherwise you will like foolish worse you will look like a liar.

    163. dogra — on 15th January, 2010 at 3:06 PM  

      “You can metion the Sant all you like but get your facts right otherwise you will like foolish worse you will look like a liar.

      Well, that is your opinion, have provided those links, which state clearly what bhindrawale said, you do not agree your choice, but they will be stated, not concerned with how a number of people will view me.

    164. comrade.. — on 15th January, 2010 at 4:45 PM  

      Why dont you campaign for Amnesty to go in and resolve this issue as your spreading the lies the Govt wants the world to believe.

      Ravinder, Whats lies are these, direct me to any comment that I have made in the support of the India State. I do not come from that Politcal background. My background is the Naxalite movement. If you had any understanding of that movement you would not have made that comment. Click on this, this is who we are.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttBHNsW6KBU&feature=related

    165. nobodys hero — on 15th January, 2010 at 5:30 PM  

      “Let me tell you what used to be said about a Khalsa Sikh in the villages in the Punjab through out India to women. That if ever in trouble or if it was late at night if they saw a Singh to go to him for he would protect her. That is the Legacy of Maharaj Guru Gobind Singh Ji he formed the Khalsa, he then became a part of the Khalsa. He never carved a kingdom he had riches beyond our wildest dreams he did not give them to the Sikhs!! What he gave is a universal brotherhood.
      Thats all fine and but where was the village when the sikh was being attacked

    166. Ravinder — on 15th January, 2010 at 6:17 PM  

      nobodys hero

      the villagers were the sheep and goats.

    167. Surj — on 16th January, 2010 at 5:00 PM  

      The programme was ill planned & presented by the BBC. To present a programme about events that resulted in over 20,000 deaths in just 60 minutes (to be honest 35 minutes -once 25 minutes of Sonia’s self promotion are removed)is a disgrace. All in all the programme did not once condemn the Indian Government for it’s part in the lead-up to or actual Operation Blue Star. There was no mention of 13 Sikhs being shot dead in 1978 by a Sect Group (Narangkaris - Devil Worshippers)who were sponsored by Congress. The murderers were brought to court but not found not guilty. This event led SJB & his followers to carry guns. Then Indira Gandhi created this Hindu hating vibe in the punjab to use it for elections by trying to get all India to vote for her party(taking Thatchers Falklands success on board). Remember this is a witch of a women who declared ‘Emergency Rule’ in the 70’s when she was found to have a corrupt government. The BBC should have done this documentary in 6-10 episodes explaining the Sikhs plight from 47 onwards. Sonia Doel should have stayed at home and enjoyed the Bham night life. I am actually 34 years old and using the Internet and various books from the Library have more insight & knowledge than that programme. The BBC has endless footage from 84 and could have easily got Tully to present it. Although Sir Mark Tully did spend a lot of time being looked after by Indira Gandhi and well never say a bad word against her.Anyway I raise a glass to Sonia’s promotion.

    168. comrade.. — on 16th January, 2010 at 6:22 PM  

      A ducomentary on Punjab ‘Caught In The Crossfire’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvfbasHpso0&NR=1

    169. nobodys hero — on 16th January, 2010 at 6:28 PM  

      Mark tully made me laugh when he said bhindrawale turned a fanatic when the police destroyed his documented speeches during his arrest.Nothing to do with the police killing 18 of his followers during his arrest protest

    170. comrade.. — on 16th January, 2010 at 6:34 PM  

      Ignore the previous post , because its in 3 parts

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE1k26NlFyM

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8tenYXMzH8&NR=1

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvfbasHpso0&NR=1

    171. douglas clark — on 16th January, 2010 at 6:43 PM  

      Surj,

      Perhaps you are right. From the position of an expert, perhaps the documentary was a bit lacking. From the point of view of someone - me - that didn’t know a lot about the subject, it seemed quite informative.

      And the personal perspective was actually quite useful. From the point of view of human interest.

      I thought it was one woman’s take on the subject and a brave attempt to reveal some uncomfortable facts. If you can do better you should write to the BBC with your proposal.

    172. Parvinder — on 16th January, 2010 at 7:46 PM  

      Comrade, thanks for posting the videos, they were very informative. The old Hindu guy was very courageous to stay in his village and his continued friendship with his Sikh friend was heart warming.

      This should be a wake up call for those of us interested in moving things forward. While we, as Sonia Deol’s piece showed, were shocked at the callousnous of Operation Bluestar and the November 84 massacres, we should also at the same time condemn the killings of Hindus which occurred on Punjab’s inter-state buses and the killings of Sikhs who spoke out against the militants.

      The demands of the state of Punjab were essentially Punjabi demands of greater autonomy, water and electricity and a state capital. These should never have been communalised and therefore alienating Hindu Punjabis. The centre took advantage, the moderate Akalis branded as anti-national and any settlement curtailed. The rest is history.

    173. Dalbir — on 16th January, 2010 at 7:53 PM  

      One strange thing I noticed in the documentary Caught in the crossfire is how one harrased Hindu actually goes to the local militant leader for help?! Who proceeds to help him but is then subsequently killed by the police.

      Is this any indication of the real complexities on the ground as opposed to the Hindu vs Sikh narrative?

    174. comrade.. — on 16th January, 2010 at 9:43 PM  

      Pavinder,

      Your brief analysis is spot on, we need to move on. But we must not rest and continue the fight for justice for families of the massacre of Sikhs in Delhi and Muslims in Gur..

    175. nobodys hero — on 17th January, 2010 at 1:01 AM  

      T

    176. nobodys hero — on 17th January, 2010 at 2:43 AM  

      after the bbc programme so many sikh kids want to know about kkhalistan

    177. Kulvinder — on 17th January, 2010 at 1:27 PM  

      Here you go Jasjit; you can include that in your phd as well. Something about how bhanderwala was irrelevant and all they wanted was justice or something?

      Personally im enjoying the spin being put out that bhanderwala wasn’t anything like bin laden, when in actual fact he did develop a de facto sikh theocracy; only it existed in the confines of the golden temple rather than afghanistan.

      But for anyone non-sikh reading this who believes the ‘model minority’ bullshit; see! those types of degenerates also exist within the sikh community. What’ll be interesting is whether the self-appointed community leaders/spokesmen etc will now be challenged by the media in a similar way to they are with islam.

      I for one welcome it; anything that shines a light on the loons is good.

      after the bbc programme so many sikh kids want to know about kkhalistan

      I’m sure they do, theres loads of them aren’t there? and you’re just at the cusp of the revolution aren’t you? and its all going to turn out brilliant in the end, isn’t it?

      In 20 years time you morons will be saying the same thing.

      But yeah kids want to learn about Khali-stan. Which is appropriate in a way; since there hasn’t been any philosophical work on what khali-stan actually means its become little more than a brand name for bigots to rally behind. You can’t even define the borders let alone a hypothetical government structure. Worthless empty rhetoric.

    178. Kulvinder — on 17th January, 2010 at 1:34 PM  

      May Waheguru bless you so that you can find love in your life and share it with humanity around you.

      Sorry i missed this the first time; im sharing the love as we speak.

      I love, i mean properly love, pointing out the hypocrisy of people who want to wrap themselves up in an aura of victimisation based on the experiences of others; then advocate a mysoginistic, homophobic and bigoted theocratic rule, and who then storm theatres or threaten anyone who disagrees with them.

      I properly love it! and im more than happy to share it.

    179. Surj — on 17th January, 2010 at 10:30 PM  

      Kulvinder,

      Learn to read & write proper english. I am a westernised british born punjabi. I am not very religious but I do not believe in anyone attacking anyone’s faith. What the hell are you trying to say ??

      You obviously have a big problem and I can guess what it is.

      I live in Bham & I can meet you anytime to discuss or review your comments over a quiet drink. Please let me know.

    180. nobodys hero — on 18th January, 2010 at 6:34 AM  

      love, i mean properly love, pointing out the hypocrisy of people who want to wrap themselves up in an aura of victimisation based on the experiences of others; then advocate a mysoginistic, homophobic and bigoted theocratic rule, and who then storm theatres or threaten anyone who disagrees with them.
      what shit does this mean did the whole sikh nation storm the theatre must of been some theatre. So you have met all the sikhs in the world to know their politics .Or you just being a anti sikh bigot.

    181. Kulvinder — on 18th January, 2010 at 12:49 PM  

      You obviously have a big problem and I can guess what it is.

      I can’t?! (no seriously i can’t! im curious what you think my problem is)

      Please let me know.

      I’m not travelling all the way to birmingham to have you ‘review’ my comments, you loon. If you have an argument to make just tape that keyboard thing in front of you.

      what shit does this mean did the whole sikh nation storm the theatre must of been some theatre

      Theres no ’sikh nation’ love.

    182. nobodys hero — on 18th January, 2010 at 1:19 PM  

      Sikh cant have a homeland sikh cant call them selves a nation cant do that .Why are you so anti sikh.Everyone hates a winner never envious of a loser

    183. Dalbir — on 18th January, 2010 at 1:27 PM  

      I don’t know. Kulvinder sometimes seems to exhibit serious self hatred in terms of the faith she was born into. She seems to think much of her fellow Sikhs are cavemen/women. Be careful, that is usually a sign of the advanced stages of coconutisation.

      Batch ke!

    184. Kulvinder — on 18th January, 2010 at 2:01 PM  

      Why are you so anti sikh.

      Because you represent the ’sikhness’ im against. I reject you.

      Kulvinder sometimes seems to exhibit serious self hatred in terms of the faith she was born into

      My sense of self is secure enough to laugh at being called a coconut or being told im just self hating (whats the problem, ran out of arguments about the actual issue?). As for effectively being called ‘a girl’ by your use of ’she’; shame on you for your misogyny. So what if i was a girl? or if i was transgendered. Attempting to demean me by labelling me as female shows what obnoxious, misogynisitic and bigoted views you must have of women.

      If you want an answer to what i reject look in the mirror you hypocritical moron.

    185. nobodys hero — on 18th January, 2010 at 2:22 PM  

      boring boring use a language people understand . You re the bigot i dont give a shit what u follow or reject dont make bigoted comments

    186. Dalbir — on 18th January, 2010 at 2:26 PM  

      Attempting to demean me by labelling me as female shows what obnoxious, misogynisitic and bigoted views you must have of women.

      I used she because I think I was given the impression that you were a lady from a previous post. I could be mistaken, and if so, sorry.

      But your strange presumption that merely considering you female, constitutes demeaning you, is baffling?

      If you want an answer to what i reject look in the mirror you hypocritical moron.

      errr………….okay…….

      I’m just saying be careful not to runaway with the old emotions. You yourself seem to have brought into stereotypes of your own people created by others.

    187. Kulvinder — on 18th January, 2010 at 3:06 PM  

      But your strange presumption that merely considering you female, constitutes demeaning you, is baffling?

      Oh, please. I’ve been here long enough for everyone to know what my gender is; at least have the backbone to stand by your posts, coward.

      What you wrote was in essence saying little more than ahahaha you’re a girl

      what exactly was next

      ahahaah you’re black

      Every time someone makes a point you can’t argue around you resort to the usual pejoratives; they’re ‘whitey’, they’re ‘coconuts’, they’re ’selfhating’.

      When someone points out the hypocrisy of you being so keen to constantly highlight just how wronged the sikhs have been or just how much the west/’whitey’ is to blame for everything whilst being a bigot in your own right; you feign mock horror and claim you were misunderstood.

      Grow a backbone.

    188. nobodys hero — on 18th January, 2010 at 3:41 PM  

      Giani Zail Singh and Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale an Overview

      Much has been written about Giani Zail Singh’s role in bringing Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale on the centre-stage of Sikh politics. Consequently, people have come to believe that Bhindarwale was propped up by Giani Zail Singh to beat the Akalis in the politics of one-upmanship.

      Political analysts aver that Bhindrawale proved a Frankstein for the Congress for whose benefit he was allegedly brought to the fore by the Giani. His emergence on the map of Punjab, his flight with Akalis, his taking part in SGPC elections, his open support to Congress in Parliament and State elections in 1980, his free movement with gun carrying followers in the whole of India, his safe escape from Chando Kalan in Haryana in 1981, his release after interrogation on the charges of murder of Lala Jagat Narain, the founder of Hind Samachar group of newspapers, his entry in Golden Temple Complex and many other such events are interpreted as political maneuverings of Giani Zail Singh. Above all, some quarters charge the Giani of having intimated Sant Bhindrawale the Government plan to send army into the holy precincts.

      Both Giani Zail Singh and Sant Bhindrawale are no more who can give answers to charges made out against them. Mark Tully and Satish Jacob in their book, ‘Amritsar : Mrs. Gandhi’s Last Battle’, mention all the above charges. I wrote to Mark Tully asking him to prove any of the above facts. In reply, he sent me a photograph of Giani Zail Singh with Bhindrawale sitting side by side. I wrote to him that this was taken in a memorial congregation held in Delhi soon after the assassination of Jathedar Santokh Singh in 1981, which was attended by both.

      I am taking liberty to lay-bare some hard facts so that this myth about Zail Singh – Bhindrawale can be examined without any malice. Bhindranwale belonged to a seminary tracing its origin from the times of Guru Gobind Singh. Since long, their followers engaged in instruction of Sikh missionaries since the time of Baba Deep Singh, the legendary martyr who fell fighting in the defence of holy Harmindar Sahib.

      Sant Jarnail Singh succeeded Sant Karar Singh, a dynamic Sikh preacher who had led one of the factions of this seminary popularly called Damdami Taksal. Sant Jarnail Singh was quite young when he succeeded Sant Kartar Singh. He had both zeal and enthusiasm along with dedication to prove equal to the task. He soon became popular among the Sikhs as a competent exponent of the Sikh scriptures. He was always on the move having his headquarter at Mehta Chowk in District Amritsar. The vehicle in which he travelled was usually full of students of the Taksal. I attended many congregations addressed by Sant Ji at Gurdwara Dukhniwaran Patiala. A tall handsome person having great fluency in Punjabi soon proved a hit with devotees. From the very beginning he carried a revolver on his person alongwith a small Kirpan and an arrow in his hand. This peculiarity endeared him to the youth. As the head of a historical missionary order with youthful dynamism, Sant Jarnail Singh, soon become popular with the Sikh multitude. In huge congregations that gathered to listen to him, he used to preach austere living, simple marriages, abstinence from all types of intoxicants and strict observance of the Code of Conduct of the Khalsa.

      It was a matter of coincidence that at the time he appeared on the scene, the Akali Party came back into power in 1977 with Sarkar Prakash Singh Badal as Chief Minister. Akalis were in coalition with Jana Sangh and Janata Dal. Even Shri Romesh Chander, Editor of Hind Samachar was an MLA supporting the Government. Sant Jarnail Singh did not like this opportunistic alliance. He was dead against all those elements who had opposed Punjabi with Gurmukhi script and the formation of Punjabi Suba. He maintained no contact with the Akali leadership as a whole. Only Gurcharan Singh Tohra, the then President of the SGPC had established his contacts with him and was aware of the developments in the Taksal.

      It was on 6th April, 1978 that the formation of a new party called Dal Khalsa was announced in a meeting held in the Aroma Hotel at Chandigarh. It is necessary to recall here that Dal Khalsa was the name of the voluntary fighting force that led the Khalsa to become a sovereign power in the Punjab by the end of the eighteenth century. This development was the brain child of a Punjab University employee who put forth the idea of Khalistan. Incidentally, when this press meet was being held, Giani Zail Singh was also present in the same Hotel to attend some other function. It is alleged that he paid the bill for this press conference of Dal Khalsa. Harsimran Singh, who headed this new outfit, was then working with Professor Vishwa Nath Tewari, who at that time was the head of Bhai Vir Singh Chair of the Punjab University. Prof. Tewari was staunch Congressman and this fact lent a new dimension to this development. Anyway, Dal Khalsa emerged as an independent group of young educated Sikhs.

      It is, perhaps, a coincidence that the only a week after Dal Khalsa was launched, a tragic event shook the entire State. On 19th April, 1978, the Sant Nirankari Mandal (an aberrant sect of the Sikhs) organized a big Samagam in an open ground at Amritsar. Sikh Groups had since long been condemning the Nirankaris for their wrongful use of Sikh terminology and some unsavoury remarks in their religious book ‘Avtar Bani’. Baba Gurbachan Singh was the head of the sect. Akhand Kirtani Jatha followers of Bhai Randhir Singh, a devout Sikh group opposed the holding of the Nirankari meet at Amritsar. While this congregation of the Nirankaris was in progress, a few Akhand Kirtani Jatha members led by one Fauja Singh marched to the place after they made known their intention in a congregation in Manji Sahib Dewan hall within the Golden Temple Complex. The Nirankaris on their part seemed to have been well prepared to face any eventuality. They attacked these unarmed peaceful demonstrators as soon as they reached near their Pandal. Eighteen persons were killed. Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale was present in the Manji Sahib congregation when Akhand Kirtani Jatha had decided to send a Jatha against the Nirankaris. After the tragedy, he appeared at the centre-stage and with his typical style; put the Akali-Janata Coalition government on the defensive for allowing this Samagam in the holy city. Prakash Singh Badal was at that time in Bombay. As soon as he learnt about this, he rushed back. He allowed safe exit to Baba Gurbachan Singh from the Punjab territory, which was highly resented by the Sikhs. Sant Bhindranwale described the Nirankaris as Narkdharis and took a vow to avenge the killings. (Baba Gurbachan Singh was later shot dead in his own house in Delhi in April 1981, and Bhai Ranjit Singh who was subsequently appointed as Jathedar of Akal Takht by the SGPC was named as the main accused). Meanwhile, Bhai Amrik Singh a close of aide of Bhindranwale and son of Sant Kartar Singh, the former head of Damdami Taksal, was elected as President of All India Sikh Students Federation. These three happenings, founding of Dal Khalsa, killing of the devout Sikhs at Amritsar and election of Amrik Singh as head of AISSF, paved the way for Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale to emerge in a new role. Any student of history can make his/her own assessment of the rise of Bhindranwale. But I hold the opinion that it was an accident of history.

      Bhindranwale toured all over the Punjab and went on accusing the Punjab Government for having soft corner for the Nirankaris. He wanted the arrest of Baba Gurbachan Singh as the main accused for brutal killings of innocent devout Sikhs who were supposed to be marching towards the Nirankari Samagam to protest against its being held at Amritsar. The Punjab Government at that time did not take any step to satisfy or pacify the injured feelings of the Sikhs. This provided a golden opportunity to Bhindranwale for entry into Sikh political arena. He openly started propagating that there are forces within the Central as well as State Government that are out to harm the Sikhs.

      There was a bye-election of Baba Bakala seat of the SGPC in 1978 and the Akalis put up Jathedar Jiwan Singh Umra Nangal who was a Minister in the Government. Bhindranwale, immediately announced the candidature of Bhai Amrik Singh. This became a scene of Bhindranwale Vs. the Akalis. The Congress which was then out of power got a chance to enthuse their workers and decided to support Bhindranwale’s candidate. But the emergency stigma was so severe that they could not muster any support. Moreover, the combined pressure of Punjab Ministers and SGPC managed victory for Jathedar Jiwan Singh Umra-Nangal, a maverick of Akali politics.

      During the General Election of SGPC in 1979, Congress party decided to embarrass the Akali – Janata Government by entering into the election arena by proxy knowing fully well that even a powerful and crafty person like Sardar Partap Singh Kairon had failed in this game. Sanjay Gandhi was advised by his advisors, especially by his friend Vishwajit Singh to take advantage of Bhindrawales rift with Akalis in order to destabilize the Akali government. A meeting was called and services of S. Gurbir Singh, son the late Justice Gurnam Singh, were commissioned. Vishwajit and Gurbir Singh (Baku) were provided monetary support and they remained active. They had meetings with Bhai Amrik Singh and promised him full support. Bhindranwale was keen to oppose the Akalis and he put up a number of candidates. Sanjay Gandhi gave instructions to all Congress leaders especially Giani Zail Singh, S. Darbara Singh and Dr. Gurdial Singh Dhillon to help the Bhindranwale group. Despite all this, Akalis won the elections hands down and only six candidates put up by Bhindrawale could be elected to the SGPC.

      Emergency was lifted in 1979 and Parliamentary elections were called in the month of December. R. L. Bhatia, the Congress candidate from Amritsar got support of Bhindranwale Group, as they were opposed to the Akali Party. As I understand, bitterness between Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and the Akalis was a major cause of the Bhindranwale Group opposing Akalis at that time. The Akalis were supporting another group of Damdami Taksal headed by Giani Mohan Singh.

      The Congress won the Parliamentary elections and Indira Gandhi returned as Prime Minister, in January 1980. Giani Zail Singh joined the Central Cabinet as Home Minister. He always supported the policy of conciliation. He managed and helped Ch. Bhajan Lal, Janta Dal, Chief Minister, Haryana, to join the Congress Party. In Punjab, he advocated some partnership agreement between the Akalis and the Congress, but he did not meet with success there. The Punjab Ministry was dismissed and in the fresh elections Congress Party won with a big margin. Darbara Singh, a President of the Punjab Congress in yesteryears, was installed as Chief Minister of the State. He was deadly opposed to the Giani. He did not believe in the Giani brand of politics of conciliation. In April 1980, Baba Gurbachan Singh, Nirankari Chief was shot dead at his home in Delhi. At once, the press linked Bhindranwale’s name with his murder. On the basis of investigation reports supplied by the State and Central agencies, Giani Zail Singh informed the Parliament that Bhindranwale was not involved in the murder of the Nirankari Chief. This was treated as Giani’s soft peddling towards Bhindranwale.

      I need not give details of all events of the years 1980 & 1981 and Bhindranwale’s ascendance to the political horizon of the Punjab. From a religious preacher he became a social crusader and a political ideologue. Media gave Sant Jarnaiil Singh special attention. He was frequently interviewed by the press correspondents and photographers. Killing of Lala Jagat Narian, on September 9, 1981, was a turning point in Punjab crisis. Sant Bhindranwale’s name was linked with his murder. His arrest from his headquarters became an extra-ordinary event. People gathered there in large numbers to show their indulgence and eleven people were killed by the police firing at Chowk Mehta. After some time he had to be released by Punjab Police for lack of evidence. The Giani had no role to play in his whole affair. Earlier when the Punjab Police went to arrest him at Chando Kalan (Haryana), he escaped. Even then some people accused Giani Zail Singh of having leaked the information regarding the raid. Rumours which became afloat. Blamed Giani Zail Singh for making a hero of Sant Jarnail Singh, ignoring the fact that Punjab Police under directions of the Government carried out the operation. In the process, the Sant won sympathizers and admirers in Services and Police.

      Jathedar Santokh Singh was shot dead on 21st December, 1981. He was a great friend of Bhindranwale and was close to Indira Gandhi. Bhindranwale came to Delhi to attend the Bhog ceremony of Jathedar Santokh Singh, which took place in G.K. 1 at his residence. Giani Zail Singh attended the function to mourn the death of the Delhi Sikh leader. I accompanied him. Sant Bhindranwale was sitting in front row. The Giani was also seated there. Not a word was exchanged between them. Soon after the Bhog the Giani left. Photographs of them both sitting together were published in the newspapers. On the way back, the Giani told me that he had seen Bhindranwale for the first time. I particularly asked him “everyone believes that you have promoted him in politics and how come you did not see him earlier?” He told me that it was all a canard spread by Darbara Singh in order to malign him in the eyes of the Congress High Command. He said, in 1978 there could have been a chance meeting when both were invited to a function at Baba Bakala. At that time, Giani Zail Singh left after his speech and Bhindranwale had not reached in time. But he said on his own that he sincerely desired Bhindranwale to confine himself to religious and social spheres. He admitted that the Sant had a large following among Sikhs and his influence and energy could be utilized for the good of the State. He felt sad at the assassination of Jathedar Santokh Singh and described it as a big set-back because the latter could influence Sant Jarnail Singh. He failed to name any other person who could be entrusted with this task. He was sure, Darbara Singh could spoil the political atmosphere and Punjab would suffer a lot.

      Sant Bhindranwale stayed in Delhi for some time and later went to Bombay. A horde of his followers were with him. A question is often asked why was he allowed to move freely. Giani Zail Singh would say that there was no case against him and also no ban on his movements. All the guns his followers carried were licensed and if there was any violation of law, the State Governments had full authority to take action.

      Giani Zail Singh became President of India on 26th July, 1982. He was strictly advised by Indira Gandhi to keep himself aloof from the Punjab and the Sikh affairs. What happened after that period is well known. Giani Zail Singh had no role to play at any point of time. He was kept in the dark by all official agencies. He mentioned this fact to every leader from Punjab who came to see him. In fact he was a victim of a vilification campaign let loose against him by his detractors and political opponents. They convinced the media that Bhindranwale was his creation. The Sikhs at large were most unhappy that with a Sikh at the Rashtrapati Bhawan, the Army destroyed the Akal Takhat.

      It is a pity that both the Giani and Bhindranwale were maligned with ulterior motives. I am not analyzing the role of Bhindranwale during the curcial period of 1983-1984 and the circumstances, which led to the sad attack on the Golden Temple by the Indian Army and the ultimate end of Sant Bhindranwale.

      By Tarlochan Singh MP

    189. Ravinder — on 18th January, 2010 at 3:51 PM  

      kulvinder

      You having fun? I think you should keep posting your quite funny!

      If I laugh any more I might even wet myself. Just so we all know I really want to know if your a male/ female or both becuase I am not sure what you are aside from ignorant?

      When your done being stupid be better to stick to the topic. What do you think?

      Put aside our egos and look at what we could collectively do to highlight what has happened and the reprecussions of actions taken.

    190. nobodys hero — on 18th January, 2010 at 4:26 PM  

      kulvinder workout if your male and female.Then do some historical research on the subject.Your on the pickled politics panel ,try to be little bit more informed.If i was doing a exam on say a figure from history,wouldnt get far just listing trigger words evil terrorist murderer coated with language i ve never heard any one use. This man is a hero amongst a large part of the sikh nation.As a journalist ,whether u like it not, it should be your job to know why and what makes him so popular.Not just satisty your bigotry and claim its because the sikhs are a blood thirst crowd

    191. Ravinder — on 18th January, 2010 at 4:34 PM  

      Kulvinder …. journalist…. for who the Daily Sport, they make up articles all the time to fill space.

    192. Dalbir — on 18th January, 2010 at 4:51 PM  

      Kulvinder seems to have her own agenda of sticking the boot in her own community. Personally I couldn’t give a flying if she was male or female, that has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

      I almost get the sense that your self loathing makes you feel that Sikhs deserved what they got at 1984……I hope this isn’t true.

      What you wrote was in essence saying little more than ahahaha you’re a girl

      what exactly was next

      ahahaah you’re black

      WTF!!!! I think you may have blown a gasket in your brain…..

      Every time someone makes a point you can’t argue around you resort to the usual pejoratives; they’re ‘whitey’, they’re ‘coconuts’, they’re ’selfhating’.

      Just to set you straight: A white Anglo dominated drive at a hegemony at politics and culture exists. You just choose to ignore it. I’m not saying every last white person is consciously pushing this drive but it exists. Even if it is being strongly contested as we speak. Wake up.

      Coconuts too exist. Don’t deny it. As do people who have serious complexes with self-hatred because they view their own community through the lens of another ’s. Often this is a worldview which manifests the other communities own supercilious perspective. I’ve identified a strong component of it being a remnant of colonial time brainwashing but it is likely to be more complex than just that.

      When someone points out the hypocrisy of you being so keen to constantly highlight just how wronged the sikhs have been or just how much the west/’whitey’ is to blame for everything whilst being a bigot in your own right; you feign mock horror and claim you were misunderstood.

      Funny, how when I turn the focus on whitey like you claim to be on Sikhs, all of a sudden you are indignant beyond belief! Truth is, the amount of death and dispossession, ‘whiteyness’ has caused directly and indirectly is massive compared to the similar by ‘militant’ SIkh sources but in your world one deserves abject condemnation whilst the other a blind eye! You’re the hypocrite.

      You are right to highlight issues within the Sikh community relating to Bhindranwale. It is something that needs to be discussed with more openness within the panth. We need to reflect and learn from the issues of 1984, this may (no will!) involve having to challenge deeply held beliefs on all sides. Same way whitey needs to reflect on a LOT of shit from that quarter. I used to think it was all in the past but recent global events (i.e. dodgy wars) have shown me that this impulse is far from finished. It wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t always trying to portray themselves as paragons of virtue.

      Now screw all of this for the time being and focus on supporting the survivors of the 1984 era.

    193. Dalbir — on 18th January, 2010 at 4:52 PM  

      Kulvinder a journalist……….are you serious!

    194. nobodys hero — on 18th January, 2010 at 6:51 PM  

      The indian government said that the golden temple was attacked because there were weapons of mass distruction stored capable of killing 5000 hindus per hour.Bhinderawa was a mass murderer on par with hitler and stalin with a charge sheet of two murders.One Which later a leader of the arkhand kirtani jatha was convicted for and served his sentance.
      So why the most barbaric killing event of all, Operation WOODROSE.Where the army went in to villages killing and imprisoning sikhs .Only crime being Amritdhari.This resulting in the birth of the khalistan movement on a mass scale
      KULVINDER YES OPERATION WOODROSE i hear you saying whats that ?
      WOODROSE is the reason why the india government do not allow the Amnesty international on to its soil .It has 20000 deaths and missing people to hide

    195. comrade.. — on 18th January, 2010 at 7:16 PM  

      Documentary on Punjab

      http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-7755841238032552309&ei=4LZRS6H6LIrN-QaoyYXWCg&q=in+memory+of+friends&hl=en#

      PRESS RELEASE
      DOORDARSHAN FINALLY TO SHOW “IN MEMORY OF FRIENDS”

      At 7.30 PM on Wednesday the 18th of September, 1996, Doordarshan will obey a court ruling and screen Anand Patwardhan’s award winning documentary film IN MEMORY OF FRIENDS on its Metro Channel, DD - 2.

      On July 19th following the final hearing of a four year old petition, Justice A. P. Shah of the Bombay High Court had ordered Doordarshan to telecast “In Memory of Friends” at prime time on either DD 1 or DD 2 of the national network within a two month period.

      Completed in 1990, the film describes the efforts of a group of Sikhs and Hindus who at great risk to their own lives, travel through the strife-torn villages and towns of Punjab, spreading the secular message of the legendary freedom fighter, Bhagat Singh.

      Doordarshan had refused to telecast the film despite the fact that a jury appointed by the Govt. of India had given the film a National Award for the Best Investigative Documentary of 1990 for its “honesty, courage and lucidity”. The film had also won a Silver Conch at the first Bombay International Film Festival in 1990.

      Doordarshan’s affidavit objected to quotations from Bhagat Singh’s book entitled “Why I am an Atheist” saying that these may offend people who are religious. It further objected to the idea that “class consciousness was an antidote to communal conflict” and to the description of the “massacre of innocent Sikhs” and claimed that the film provided “a forum for those elements who stand for Khalistan” . But the crux of the matter became clear when the affidavit objected that the film “brought in material which is not very relevant to the programme” such as the “exploitation of Bhindrenwale by Congress Party”.

      Justice Shah who saw the film at a specially organized screening , held that the denial of telecast by Doordarshan amounted to a violation of Article 19 of the Indian Constitution guaranteeing freedom of expression. He held that the petitioners right to impart information as well as the right of citizens of India to receive information were being denied. Justice Shah dismissed Doordarshan’s objections and described the film as an important and courageous documentary which attempts to promote communal harmony by spreading light on Bhagat Singh’s humanist vision. He observed that neither Bhagat Singh nor the film had made derogatory remarks about any particular religion, and class consciousness itself could not be banned in a democratic society. To Doordarshan’s fears that the film would incite violence as it had interviewed supporters of Khalistan, the judge held that the film must be seen in its entirety and at no point did the film glorify or justify violence.

      A BACKGROUND TO ANAND PATWARDHAN’S FILMS ON DOORDARSHAN

      Since 1978 Anand Patwardhan has made seven documentary films. To date these films have won 5 National Awards, 3 Filmfare Awards and 13 international awards. Educational institutions across the country as well as groups involved in human rights, women’s rights, workers rights, environmental rights and civil liberties have used these films in the course of their work.
      Yet Doordarshan has shown only one film “Bombay Our City” so far and that too after they were ordered to do so in 1989 after a long court battle.

      A petitition to get Doordarshan to screen another of Patwardhan’s films “Ram Ke Naam” dealing with the Ram Janmabhoomi-Babri Masjid conflict is pending before the courts. This film which highlights ordinary Indians opposed to communal conflict, won the Filmfare Award for Best Documentary and a National Award in 1992, and several international awards but Doordarshan to date has refused to show it

    196. dogra — on 19th January, 2010 at 9:07 AM  

      So Nobody do you condemn facist bhindas edict on all hindus leaving punjab, and to kill innocent people on basis of faith if any of bhindas men are harmed, now tell me, how is this different from incitement of Sajan Kumar and Jagdush Tytler in delhi, why the double standards, all inciters are guilty, and all should be convicted!

    197. dogra — on 19th January, 2010 at 9:09 AM  

      “documentary which attempts to promote communal harmony by spreading light on Bhagat Singh’s humanist vision. He observed that neither Bhagat Singh nor the film had made derogatory remarks about any particular religion, and class consciousness itself could not be banned in a democratic society.”

      exactly!, and none of the Gurujis amde derogatory remarks nor incitement towards any innocent people, only this fascist bhindrawale did fact!

    198. Kulvinder — on 19th January, 2010 at 1:07 PM  

      When your done being stupid be better to stick to the topic. What do you think?

      You mean the point that this is more to do with theocratic bigots seeking a ‘homeland’ and being apologists for a sikh bin laden than any real desire for reconciliation?

      ok

      next post

      This man is a hero amongst a large part of the sikh nation.

      That was quick wasn’t it?

      Nobody’s hero, there wasn’t and there hasn’t been any groundswell of opinion advocating a theocratic sikh homeland in the punjab region. There were and are no political parties that exist across the political spectrum that advocate a theocratic sikh state. No poll has indicated that people would like those issues discussed; there is no equivalent of the SNP or basque sepratist movement; whats more the demographic shift means sikhs are becoming less dominant in punjab and your theocratic daydreaming will thankfully never see reality.

      I almost get the sense that your self loathing makes you feel that Sikhs deserved what they got at 1984……I hope this isn’t true.

      Oh bhanderwala did, he absolutely deserved what he got, as did those who took up arms in his cause. I’m glad hes dead.

      The innocent hindus and sikhs obviously didn’t deserve what happened to them, regardless of whether they were killed in the pogroms or blown up in mid air over the atlantic.

      But once again

      Every time someone makes a point you can’t argue around you resort to the usual pejoratives; they’re ‘whitey’, they’re ‘coconuts’, they’re ’selfhating’.

      Truth is, the amount of death and dispossession, ‘whiteyness’ has caused directly and indirectly is massive compared to the similar by ‘militant’ SIkh sources but in your world one deserves abject condemnation whilst the other a blind eye!

      Nah i condemn bigotry where i find it, the khalistanis, the islamists, the neo-nazis; they’re all pretty much on the same level of lunacy; but yeah once again in a thread about sikh theocratic bigots you need to fall back on the ‘but the white people were worse kulvinder, forget about all this, the white people were worse please kulvinder don’t you understand WHITE PEOPLE KULVINDER WHITE PEOPLE

      Which is tres amusing given you’re accusing others of a colonial era inferiority complex.

    199. douglas clark — on 19th January, 2010 at 1:46 PM  

      Kulvinder,

      You take me back. I was that anarchist once upon a time. It is actually touching, and nostalgic to see it writ red in tooth and claw. Keep it up!

      It is ridiculous for Dalbir to argue this, at least in relation to the incidents we are discussing:

      Just to set you straight: A white Anglo dominated drive at a hegemony at politics and culture exists. You just choose to ignore it. I’m not saying every last white person is consciously pushing this drive but it exists. Even if it is being strongly contested as we speak. Wake up.

      I doubt, prior to Sonia Deols’ documentary, whether one percent of our ‘white anglo saxon dominated..hegemony…” actually knew about this story. I also doubt whether even the worst of white capitalist arseholes could have exploited it. A personal odyssey into background is interesting, though hardly revolutionary.

      Just to enrage our friend Dalbir, I think she is quite pretty.

    200. sonia — on 19th January, 2010 at 1:59 PM  

      sikh bin laden - heh heh i like that phrase.

    201. sonia — on 19th January, 2010 at 2:00 PM  

      Yes i thought it was a good documentary - and the personal perspective was a good way in - can you imagine trying to tackle it otherwise.

    202. sonia — on 19th January, 2010 at 2:04 PM  

      good points from Kulvinder.

    203. nobodys hero — on 19th January, 2010 at 3:51 PM  

      What grounds do you need. If individuals want a home land,they want to campaign for it democratic. What is the problem..Bigots like you want them labelled teerorist ,picked up during the night and left in a field with a bullet in the head .

      Fact Bhindrawale is a hero amongst the sikhs fast or slow

      ANSWER MY QUESTION HOW MANY DID BHINDRAWALWE KILL
      ANSWER MY QUESTION HOW MANY DID BHINDRAWALWE KILL
      ANSWER MY QUESTION HOW MANY DID BHINDRAWALWE KILL
      ANSWER MY QUESTION HOW MANY DID BHINDRAWALWE KILL
      ANSWER MY QUESTION HOW MANY DID BHINDRAWALWE KILL
      ANSWER MY QUESTION HOW MANY DID BHINDRAWALWE KILL
      ANSWER MY QUESTION HOW MANY DID BHINDRAWALWE KILL
      ANSWER MY QUESTION HOW MANY DID BHINDRAWALWE KILL

    204. nobodys hero — on 19th January, 2010 at 3:59 PM  

      A JOKE for yer how do make a british indian happy tell him he does not look indian

    205. nobodys hero — on 19th January, 2010 at 4:06 PM  

      Oh bhanderwala did, he absolutely deserved what he got, as did those who took up arms in his cause. I’m glad hes dead.
      The innocent hindus and sikhs obviously didn’t deserve what happened to them, regardless of whether they were killed in the pogroms or blown up in mid air over the atlantic
      the plane was blown up after his death BHINDRAWALE died june 1984.The air india PLANE was blown up in 1985
      Historical facts wrong again dictionary muncher

    206. dogra — on 19th January, 2010 at 4:29 PM  

      again Nobody, you are ignoring incitement to murder like Jagdish Tytler and Sajan Kumar, so can you answer this?

    207. Kulvinder — on 19th January, 2010 at 5:59 PM  

      What grounds do you need. If individuals want a home land,they want to campaign for it democratic. What is the problem

      Well done on understanding the concept, now point out to me which political parties exist that campaign for khalistan and that have widespread support; point out which poll shows a desire for khalistan amongst those in punjab.

      There isn’t and there has never been widespread groundroots support for a sikh theocracy.

      ANSWER MY QUESTION HOW MANY DID BHINDRAWALWE KILL

      The same number of people that Osama bin laden personally killed.

      the plane was blown up after his death BHINDRAWALE died june 1984.The air india PLANE was blown up in 1985

      …erm yes, but that doesn’t negate the fact that those seeking justice against sikh terrorists haven’t found any or that the bombing was carried out by a terrorist group that explicitly advocates a sikh theocracy.

      A JOKE for yer how do make a british indian happy tell him he does not look indian

      ‘Every time someone makes a point you can’t argue around you resort to the usual pejoratives; they’re ‘whitey’, they’re ‘coconuts’, they’re ’selfhating’

      for what its worth i don’t describe myself as ‘british indian’; depending on context and if my religious background is required its ‘english sikh’ or ‘british sikh’ as the case may apply.

    208. nobodys hero — on 19th January, 2010 at 6:00 PM  

      again Nobody, you are ignoring incitement to murder like Jagdish Tytler and Sajan Kumar, so can you answer this?

      They were leading and driving the mob to sikh houses
      incitement to murder fucking genocide

      From sikh bin laden to mass murderer ,Now we got incitement to murder.Definitely Worth the slaughter of Operation blue star and Wood rose

    209. nobodys hero — on 19th January, 2010 at 6:09 PM  

      What points are your making
      Your not a sikh you hate all those who want a sikh home land even through democracy
      Your dont seem to be hating muslim for wanting sharia law by the ballot , you know why you dont have the balls
      All sikh deserve what they got because you dont do religion
      Bhindrawale was a mass murderer but you have no prove or knowledge of history. But he has to be because he does not fit in white secular brand of intellectia

    210. Kulvinder — on 19th January, 2010 at 6:21 PM  

      Your not a sikh you hate all those who want a sikh home land even through democracy

      By all means try and get your precious theocracy via democracy; but once again, there isn’t and there has never ever been the equivalent of the broad spectrum support that exists for scottish nationalism or the various ethnic separatists in spain.

      It simply isn’t an issue for most in punjab, and with the changing demographics it never will be.

      Your dont seem to be hating muslim for wanting sharia law by the ballot

      I’m unsure whether you’re talking about the UK or not, but most muslims don’t want sharia by the ballot, the handful of islamist parties that exist don’t get elected to the houses of commons.

      Arguably a significant minority prefer to carry out certain contracts under the direction of sharia; within the scope of civil society and as long as they don’t break uk law, i don’t have a problem with it.

      If i wanted to enter a contract based on the interpretation of the lord of the rings, i don’t really see why anyone would have a problem with it as long as i didn’t break the law.

    211. Kulvinder — on 19th January, 2010 at 7:19 PM  

      Apologies for the double posting on both threads, but its important that everyone reads it.

      Follow the trend boys; khali-stan indeed

    212. Dalbir — on 19th January, 2010 at 7:40 PM  

      Your points are shite Kulvinder. Fact is your demon Bhindranwale caused infinitely less deaths than Tony Blair has. Would you wish death on him I wonder? Well would you? If you can foam at the mouth at the alleged deaths of innocents caused by one, why not the other?

      A big difference worth considering is that one had the balls to face his enemies himself (whatever we many think of him) the other was really good at sending other people’s children to die, whilst living it up himself. The epitome of sneaky whiteyness I speak of.

      Your just having an emotional outpouring without really analyising what was going on. GCSE level journalism at its best.

      Doug:

      Why you think I would be enraged by your comment is your issue.

      But to keep you happy, I personally I think she is alright looking, average I would say. If you want to go down the objectifying by looks route……..

      I don’t think she did too bad given who she is working for. I understand that the BBC (wasp central) is not really going to broach the subject of the blatant involvement of government apparatus and officials in the killings of Woodrose, Bluestar and the Delhi massacres, as it is ‘politically expedient’ not too.

      Given the nature of this forum it is worth refering to the only journalist who managed to ‘evade capture and removal’ by the state during Blue Star. His name was Brahma Chellaney. He himself reports that the deaths as given by government sources were under reported and that prisoners were executed whilst their hands were tied behind their backs. Then people have the front to take Brar’s statements of ‘treading carefully’ at face value. It’s worth doing a a search on Brahma Chellaney and checking what you find.

    213. Parvinder — on 19th January, 2010 at 7:53 PM  

      #202: ‘ANSWER MY QUESTION HOW MANY DID BHINDRAWALWE KILL’
      #208: ‘Bhindrawale was a mass murderer but you have no prove or knowledge of history. But he has to be because he does not fit in white secular brand of intellectia’

      I doubt if he can fit the Sikh concept of tolerance either.

      Bhindranwale probably didn’t kill anyone as by July 1982 onwards he didn’t leave the Golden Temple complex. The question surely should be ‘did he incite his followers to kill’. And if he did, was it justified?

      It’s without doubt a fact that Bhindranwale used to extol people to settle accounts, ie. against police officers or against leading Nirankaris (Baba Gubachan Singh), and their supporters in the press (Lala Jagat Narain and his son). Bhindranwale would then lend the assassins his protection in the Golden Temple. It is alleged his Sikh opponents were also targeted, Giani Pratap Singh, former High Priest of the Akal Takht, Chinda, Baljit Kaur, Sumeet Singh, Atwal amongst others.

      More importantly though, and this is where we should measure him against Sikh ideals of tolerance, is whether he incited people to kill innocents. The quote attributed to him in August 1983, stating the killing of ‘5,000 Hindus in one hour’ if his mini bus, to pick up Amrik Singh’s family members, was delayed by the police. Soon after making this statement, Bhindranwale not only admitted saying it but tried to justify it in one of his mass meetings (on video).

      Don’t get me wrong. There was enough provocation from the other side. Indira Gandhi’s threat that the Sikh minority living outside Punjab could suffer a backlash if the Akalis persisted with their demands; The call by Jai Hind Sangh’s to clear Sikhs out of Rajasthan by December 5 as well as the 15-20 February 1984 attacks on Sikhs living in Haryana and Rajasthan further added fuel to the fire.

      But two wrongs don’t make a right.

    214. Kulvinder — on 19th January, 2010 at 8:00 PM  

      Fact is your demon Bhindranwale caused infinitely less deaths than Tony Blair has. Would you wish death on him I wonder? Well would you? If you can foam at the mouth at the alleged deaths of innocents caused by one, why not the other?

      If he advocated a theocracy id happily write a song about being happy that someone killed him. It’d sound something like this

    215. Dalbir — on 19th January, 2010 at 8:03 PM  

      #213

      So in your book causing the deaths of innocents is okay as long as your not advocating a theocracy along with it?

      hmmm…….

    216. Don — on 19th January, 2010 at 8:08 PM  

      …sneaky whiteyness I speak of.

      …and speak of, and speak of, and speak of. We get it: Whitey is the source of all evil. Put it on a T-shirt, set it to music, tattoo it on your forehead if you want. We get it. It’s not so much your racism which is a drag, it’s the tedium.

    217. Kulvinder — on 19th January, 2010 at 8:17 PM  

      So in your book causing the deaths of innocents is okay as long as your not advocating a theocracy along with it?

      Nah thats just what makes it worse.

    218. Rumbold — on 19th January, 2010 at 8:35 PM  

      Well said Don.

      Dalbir and others:

      You should look to Parvinder as your example. Here is a Sikh who has campaigned tirelessly for the victims of 1984, yet who doesn’t fall into the trap of idolising Bhindranwale. Nobody is saying that the Indian government behaved like sants. But the Khalistanis weren’t blameless either. Justice for the victims of 1984 will always be elusive as long as people continue to tie it in with the Khalistan conflict. It makes it so much easier for the wider world to dismiss.

    219. comrade.. — on 19th January, 2010 at 10:10 PM  

      Rumbold

      Justice for the victims of 1984 will always be elusive as long as people continue to tie it in with the Khalistan conflict.

      Me and my Comrades joined the first protest, and were nearly beaten up and there after never attended. The campaign for justice was taken over by the Khalistanis through intimidation. They forcefully took over control of Sikh Temples. They were the ones who organized protests. Their main slogan was Khalistan Zindabad, Bhinderwale Zindabad, where as the main focus should have been Justice for the Sikh massacre in Delhi, even moderate Sikhs moved away. This could have come a mass campaign where the wider population could have been involved, the Trade Unions and so on.

    220. Dalbir — on 19th January, 2010 at 11:32 PM  

      Rumbold

      I don’t idolise Bhindranwale but I don’t think he is the devil incarnate like some. He was a piece of a much bigger picture. The easy route is to make him the villian of the story. But you and I both know that this role could as easily be cast on others. Because one side consists of rustic, simple fellows and the other a vast media machine, it isn’t right to play along with the gross misrepresentation of one side.

      It WAS Indira Gandhi who initiated the communal nonsense in Panjab. I don’t agree with how some Sikhs dealt with it and some of it was barbarism of the lowest kind. I’ve fucking said umpteen times before here, killing innocent people is never excusable by anyone, least of all under a Sikh ‘banner’. It was politics of the lowest kind that caused this whole affair, and no, India still doesn’t seemed to have learnt what it needs to from all this. The government is responsible for starting the process that led to the polarisation of Sikhs and Hindus in Panjab, who generally got on famously before. Some Sikhs are responsible for behaving like complete morons without any foresight in reaction. But if you expect sophisticated understanding of a complex situation by largely semi-literate ruralites, it is being foolish in itself.

      Problem is, whenever the issue of justice for innocents is ever brought up in relation to the 1984 era, someone always throws Bhindranwale and Khalistan in (to fuck things up I presume - hat tip Kulvinder).

      What follows a long process of trying to bring balance to the whole ‘Blame it all on Bhindranwale/Khalistanis’ script that gets pumped out.

      Comrade - I applaud all who tried to sow peace in Panjab. But you have to admit there was an element of political opportunism on part of your ‘comrades’ in all of this conflict. (Thanks for the vid link btw, it was fascinating). The truth is that communism has been steadily losing favour in Panjab since the 70s. Rightly or wrongly, it is unlikely that communism was/is ever going to supplant the homegrown belief and political system of the Panjab, despite the current abysmal state of Sikh polity (amongst other things) in the land five rivers.

    221. nobodys hero — on 20th January, 2010 at 6:09 AM  

      Justice for the victims of isreal will always be elusive as long as people continue to tie it in with the islam conflict. It makes it so much easier for the wider world to dismiss

    222. nobodys hero — on 20th January, 2010 at 6:21 AM  

      It’s without doubt a fact that Bhindranwale used to extol people to settle accounts, ie. against police officers or against leading Nirankaris (Baba Gubachan Singh), and their supporters in the press (Lala Jagat Narain and his son). Bhindranwale would then lend the assassins his protection in the Golden Temple. It is alleged his Sikh opponents were also targeted, Giani Pratap Singh, former High Priest of the Akal Takht, Chinda, Baljit Kaur, Sumeet Singh, Atwal amongst others.

      Gurcharan singh who was responsble for the killing of 13 sikhs was killed by babbar khalsa (who had many disputes with bhindrawales federation) That leaves three .Who are amongst others.

      Was he a mass murderer or a mass pain in the arse to the indian political parties

    223. nobodys hero — on 20th January, 2010 at 6:23 AM  

      If he advocated a theocracy id happily write a song about being happy that someone killed him. It’d sound something like this
      be care this could be taken as conspiracy to murder.

    224. Dalbir — on 20th January, 2010 at 7:55 AM  

      don@215

      …and speak of, and speak of, and speak of.

      And still those incorrigible motherfuckers don’t learn!! lol

    225. nobodys hero — on 20th January, 2010 at 5:26 PM  

      Rumbold of the old bailey ,Listen i know your part of this intellectual mafia.There was no Khalitan movement prior to Operation Woodrose.Before 1984, 99%Sikh were not even aware of the term . So stop fucking mix matching history to prove your point. The French invaded rwanda two hundred ealier because of the rwanda tribe genocide in 1990s

    226. nobodys hero — on 20th January, 2010 at 5:30 PM  

      ustice for the victims of 1984 will always be elusive as long as people continue to tie it in with the Khalistan conflict. It makes it so much easier for the wider world to dismiss.

      or do you mean
      ustice for the victims of 1984 will always be elusive as long as the sikh people continue not to have a homeland . It makes it so much easier for the wider world to dismiss.No government to listen to their cries of help.No business deals or brothers in arms with other states

    227. Rumbold — on 20th January, 2010 at 6:22 PM  

      Dalbir:

      Problem is, whenever the issue of justice for innocents is ever brought up in relation to the 1984 era, someone always throws Bhindranwale and Khalistan in (to fuck things up I presume – hat tip Kulvinder).

      Which is my point (though Kulvinder didn’t do that). Everyone then has a nice debate about Khalistan and 1984 moves to the back. I see I was wrong to inculde you in my general address.

      Nobody’s hero:

      Rumbold of the old bailey ,Listen i know your part of this intellectual mafia.There was no Khalitan movement prior to Operation Woodrose.

      It’s Rumpole of the Bailey, but never mind. High praise indeed.

      So the Khalistan movement didn’t spring up until after 1984? Eh? Then what were those men holed up in the Harminder Sahib fighting for?

    228. comrade.. — on 20th January, 2010 at 6:33 PM  

      Dalbir

      Comrade – I applaud all who tried to sow peace in Panjab. But you have to admit there was an element of political opportunism on part of your ‘comrades

      Your above comments don’t really make sense, if my comrade were opportunist, they could have kept their mouth shut. They could have left the villages and take shelter in cities, no, they made a conscious decision to stay in their homes in the villages and organize and educate the masses, the left of all parties paid a heavy price. twenty thousand people attended the funeral of Comrade Jamal Padda {In Memory of Friends}
      they would have been opportunist if they had run with their tale between their legs. Binderwale did give them that opportunist, when he order them to come to Golden Temple and repent. Guru Nanak Ji said ” If you have the desire to play the gave of love, then put your head on the palm your hand and come to my Gate’

      Dalbir
      we stand for Bhai Lalo[ the honest worker} and not the blood sucking, profit making Malak Bhago. [feudal lord}The sikhs of today have totally forgot the basic message of the Guru,s. If Guru Nanak was around today in physical form you would be calling him a leftist. It is the Guru ji’s fault who has turned me into socialist, he was my first Guru.

    229. comrade.. — on 20th January, 2010 at 6:51 PM  

      ustice for the victims of 1984 will always be elusive as long as the sikh people continue not to have a homeland.

      Have you got a road map for your homeland, can I have copy please, so that I can study it, are Sikhs a nationality or religion, do you want theocratic or democratic state

    230. Parvinder — on 20th January, 2010 at 7:04 PM  

      #187: ‘Giani Zail Singh and Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale an Overview By Tarlochan Singh MP’

      I’m perplexed that this article has been presented as evidence that there was no links between the Giani and Sant. Written by Tarlochan Singh, who was Giani Zail Singh’s Secretary at the time. Well, he would say that wouldn’t he.

      Word was out that his boss had supported Bhindranwale must have been a huge embarrassment to him over the years. The Giani is presented as some innocent cuddly toy, when in fact he was the most power driven excuse of a man. Following Operation Bluestar, he refused to do the honourable thing and resign. Worse still, after the November massacres, he remained glued to his seat just yards away where members of his own party were directing mobs to burn human beings.

      It is common knowledge that Sanjay ‘the twisted’ Gandhi, who was used to ‘extra-constitutional methods’, chose Bhindranwale with Zail Singh, in order to create trouble for the Akali-Janata government. Zail Singh carried on his ties with him in order to destabilise Darbara Singh’s government, his arch-rival. How else can you explain:

      1979: Bhindranwale shares platform with Mrs Gandhi in support of Congress (I) candidate, S.K. Bhinder in Gurdaspur. This has been corroborated by the Janata candidate, Pran Nath Lekhi, who went further, stating Bhindranwale accompanied Mrs Gandhi during the election tour of Gurdaspur. Posters were printed stating ‘Bhindranwale supports me’.

      1979 Gurdwara elections: Bhindranwale puts up 40 candidates with the support of Congress (I).

      1980 Lok Sabha elections: Bhindranwale campaigns for the Congress (I) candidates including R.L. Bhatia, President of the Punjab Congress Party for the Amritsar constituency.

      By 1982 though, the Giani had cut off his links with Bhindranwale, who now became useful to the Akalis.

      Nov 1982: When Mrs Gandhi told the Akalis at a meeting ‘Brindranwale is not a good man; you have been supporting him unnecessarily’. The Akalis retorted that it was Congress (I) which had been supporting him; ‘You supported him for 4 years, we have supported him for 20 days’.

      Some have argued that once Bhindranwale had realised he was being used, he stayed clear of Congress and ‘chair’ politics. This I could buy into, but a complete denial of a link in the early days is plain revisionist.

    231. Dalbir — on 20th January, 2010 at 7:21 PM  

      #227

      Okay I’m willing to concede. Comrades probably had their hearts in the right place.

      But communism with its inherent athiesm was/is unlikely to gain popular support in Panjab. You are right though, the whole globe is in the hands of Malik Bhago types now.

      In anycase, haven’t you read Che Guevera’s work on guerilla warfare? He makes a specific point about respecting people’s beliefs in any movement against an oligarchy. I don’t know how he would have taken Bhindranwale, hypothetically might have actually fought with him? Who knows.

      Overall though, the whole situation was disgusting and a textbook example of base politics causing serious turmoil and bringing out the worst in people.

    232. comrade.. — on 20th January, 2010 at 8:40 PM  

      Dalbir

      I don’t know how he would have taken Bhindranwale, hypothetically might have actually fought with him? Who knows.

      I don’t think so, Binderwale in essence was a communalist, I spent all day on Sunday listening to his speeches on the internet, his anti Hindu rhetoric is clearly evident. His incitement to violence. He had no clear agenda, no real base amongst the Sikh masses, no grass root organizations, apart from AK 47 wielding youths. This is a extract from is sermon. ‘you the path asks for militant programme. Will you follow it, ok, go to villages,get a motorbike a new revolver and keep in your possession two hundred hand grenades.It is your job to do action, and its my job to look after you’ this was his political programme. Apart from this form of action, what other agitation was carried out for the so called Sikh demand, none.

    233. Armoured Dildo — on 20th January, 2010 at 9:14 PM  

      I noticed many Sikhs live in Canada, and over the years the Sikhs arnt actually a particularly spiritual group, in fact they tend to be associated with Terrorism, Gang violence, death threats and drugs…

      If you think I’m making this up, here’s an article.

      http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2009/05/20/sikh-religion-viewed-unfavorably-in-b-c.aspx

      I’d point several jounalists have faced death threats regarding anything negative that has been reported on sikh related articles, it doesn’t surprise their is a certain paranoia and insecurity with this ‘religion’ its no surprise that this forum thread is bloddy long too.

    234. Dalbir — on 20th January, 2010 at 9:45 PM  

      Apart from this form of action, what other agitation was carried out for the so called Sikh demand, none.

      Are you kidding me? Getting enough popular support to agitate by preventing grain leaving the Panjab was no small thing. Indira knew it, that is why she attacked as soon as this was about to happen.

      Say whatever you like, if she never chose the most extreme route in response, he would have successfuly brought her to the table with a strong negotiating hand.

      #232, grab your momma, bend her over and use your name sake on her.

    235. Kulvinder — on 20th January, 2010 at 9:45 PM  

      Canada got all the chavs

    236. nobodys hero — on 20th January, 2010 at 9:59 PM  

      Kulvinder a fucking bigot and a snob
      Dont like white working class culture.

    237. nobodys hero — on 20th January, 2010 at 10:03 PM  

      i call on all sikh farmers to grow wheat and corn and turn it in veg oil. Get a better market price. And starve all those sikh hating indians The we ll get another operation.Operation Corn oil. To eliminate all veg oil producing sikh farmers

    238. Kulvinder — on 20th January, 2010 at 10:03 PM  

      We’ll compromise; ill plead guilty on snob-lite.

      i call on all sikh farmers to grow wheat and corn and turn it in veg oil. Get a better market price. And starve all those sikh hating indians The we ll get another operation.Operation Corn oil. To eliminate all veg oil producing sikh farmers

      Okay.

    239. comrade.. — on 20th January, 2010 at 10:07 PM  

      Dalbir

      Are you kidding me? Getting enough popular support to agitate by preventing grain leaving the Panjab was no small thing. Indira knew it, that is why she attacked as soon as this was about to happen.

      Any links for above related comments, because I have no knowledge of binderwale having popular support. If he had the movement would not have been crushed so quickly.

      My opion is, that there was an election coming and she wanted to be seen tough on terrorism and also to win the Hindu vote.

    240. nobodys hero — on 20th January, 2010 at 10:09 PM  

      ustice for the victims of 1984 will always be elusive as long as the sikh people continue not to have a homeland.

      Have you got a road map for your homeland, can I have copy please, so that I can study it, are Sikhs a nationality or religion, do you want theocratic or democratic state

      Just a place to call home free from persecution and intimidation
      The whole recognising sikhs but the indian state dones
      not. Even the pope recognises the Church of england as a seperate indentity
      If a group of people want to make a place a home what the fuck has it got to with you .Did you protest when east timor was created into a christian state.Less people were killed there than punjab Did you ask them for a road map or a draft of their constitution.

    241. nobodys hero — on 20th January, 2010 at 10:12 PM  

      Okay all you like .Most dieselS run easily on veg oil with out no modification And punjab produces over 40 %of indians wheat. Watch them flap Ha ha

    242. nobodys hero — on 20th January, 2010 at 10:14 PM  

      Any links for above related comments, because I have no knowledge of binderwale having popular support. If he had the movement would not have been crushed so quickly

      So why Operation wood rose killing over 20 000 sikhs and creating a fertile ground for militancy

    243. comrade.. — on 20th January, 2010 at 10:18 PM  

      232; I noticed many Sikhs live in Canada,

      The correct terminology is Punjabis.

    244. comrade.. — on 20th January, 2010 at 10:29 PM  

      Noboys hero

      So why Operation wood rose killing over 20 000 sikhs and creating a fertile ground for militancy

      Out of the 20,000 Sikhs how many were killed by the police, how many by the militants. How many of them were civilians,police and militants. Please provide credible evidence or facts or figures by independent sources.

    245. comrade.. — on 20th January, 2010 at 10:45 PM  

      Nobody hero

      If a group of people want to make a place a home what the fuck has it got to with you

      It’s has got everything to do with me, because they want to make their home, which is my home and that can only happen over my dead body, that home belongs to Shaheed Bhatgat Singh, lajput Rai, Waris Shah, Bulla Shah, Shiv Kumar,Paash,Hindus Muslim, Sikhs and every body else who lives there. Have you got the road map/constitution ? Put- up or shut-up

    246. Dalbir — on 20th January, 2010 at 10:51 PM  

      #243

      If they let someone independent in like Amnesty International we might have this information!

      Any links for above related comments, because I have no knowledge of binderwale having popular support. If he had the movement would not have been crushed so quickly.

      Poor planning and leadership could have also led to a quick end. Dude, a fair portion of gurdwaray have his photo up. He is a sant for lots of Sikhs of orthodox background. It is bull to say he wasn’t/isn’t popular amongst large sections of the rural Sikh majority.

      My opion is, that there was an election coming and she wanted to be seen tough on terrorism and also to win the Hindu vote.

      Yes, that is part of but not all of the picture.

    247. Eric Hunt — on 20th January, 2010 at 11:18 PM  

      Hi Kulvinder,

      Are you are Girl ?? I dated a Indian Girl who hated her back ground and hence dated me - a good looking white guy. She went like a rabbit !!

      Lets me & you get it on !!!

    248. Dalbir — on 20th January, 2010 at 11:20 PM  

      Real classy Eric.

    249. Parvinder — on 20th January, 2010 at 11:30 PM  

      Operation Woodrose took place immediately after the storming of the Golden Temple. It was an army swoop into the villages of Punjab, specifically targeting baptised Sikhs.

      ‘Oppression in Punjab’ report to the Nation was the first independent account of the events. Authored by Justice V.M. Tarkunde, with an investigation team made up of Sikhs and Hindus, Amiya Rao, Aurbindo Ghose, Sunil Bhattacharya, Tejinder Ahuja and N.D. Pancholi. This was immediately banned by the government on publication. No body count was done though.

      It concuded that the attacks on civilians in the Punjab was almost totally one-sided, carried out by the Army. ‘Fake’ encounters became the norm as did torture and rape. It labelled the security forces as the real terrorists.

      I have raised the issues people have with Bhindranwale and some militant groups, but the actions of Operation Woodrose, of state terrorism, was the Goliath and the best recruiting ground for the Khalistan groups which mushroomed after this period.

    250. Mangles — on 20th January, 2010 at 11:42 PM  

      The point about the dance has been totally taken out of context. The real issue is not about Sikh-Hindu interaction, that has been going on for centuries and will continue, thats why so many Khalistanis were of Hindu heritage, many even fought and died for the cause. The real issue was how false the programme became when Sonia jumped from grief for the victims of 1984 anti-Sikh pogroms to dancing and then misrepresenting this one isolated incident with a suggestion that all was hunky dory now.

      I personally expect more from the beeb.

      Balance? Where? A general who leads the army assault against the Sikhs is given a full length interview and an 18 year old stall holder (born 7 years after the assault by the way) is asked to defend and outline Sikh grievances. That is consistent isn’t it?? Lol

      A location manager is commissioned who is publicly known to be a Congress loyalist, and then Tully a renowned Gandhi sympathiser is interviewed to further demonise Sant Jarnail Singh Ji; and then his lies are inconsistent with porkies he has told previously vis-a vis the story of Sant Ji’s Kirpan; in earlier interviews he has ascribed the menacing look to General Shubheg Singh – this time its Sant Ji. Tut tut Tully you flipping liar.

      What a totally unprofessional and shambolic mess!

      Facebook. Oh my days poor Sonia. Sonia set up her Facebook to bask in the glory of the documentary and quite clearly when the going got tough she had to get out of the spotlight. If she wants the glory she has to accept the criticism and defend her and her teams actions. She quite clearly cant defend her actions and is now resorting to self-inflicted martyrdom by suggesting that she has had to take her Facebook page down cos the row escalated. Some idiots want to read intimidation into that. Real intimidation is when the Indian joeys continually want to try to lable anything that is to do with Sikh rights and Khalistan as militancy or extremist. Now that charade has been played out for 3 decades, gosh we Khalistanis must be really thick-skinned to take the initimidation and unbalanced reporting that has been conjured up for so long. Poor Sonia, these journalists should come together and let her cry on their shoulders, ahh my heart bleeds.

      Mesaage to Sonia: Get over it dear, A for effort D for achievement; must try harder in future.

      Tommy Nagra – on Sikh Channel you said Sikhs should move on from 1984. I’d like to see anyone from the Beeb try that line with the Jews and the holocaust, Afro-Caribbean community and slavery or Americans and 9/11. They know they would not have a job to go back to. How can this geezer get away with it for 1984?

      Rab rakha!

    251. Kulvinder — on 21st January, 2010 at 12:08 AM  

      Are you are Girl ??

      …yes, yes i am.

      I dated a Indian Girl who hated her back ground and hence dated me – a good looking white guy. She went like a rabbit !!

      If you’re fit ill be whatever you want me to be. Forget the rabbit big boy i go like a primark sale

    252. Dalbir — on 21st January, 2010 at 12:20 AM  

      Kulvinder, your mother would be so proud….lol!

    253. nobodys hero — on 21st January, 2010 at 5:53 AM  

      232; I noticed many Sikhs live in Canada,

      The correct terminology is Punjabis. what shit are you talking about, sikh dont have a religion should be called punjabis.

    254. nobodys hero — on 21st January, 2010 at 5:57 AM  

      i am handsome man more pakistan looking than indian , would never date indian girls shit sex and too mouthy

      f you’re fit ill be whatever you want me to be. Forget the rabbit big boy i go like a primark sale
      your cheap and poor quality

    255. nobodys hero — on 21st January, 2010 at 6:07 AM  

      Out of the 20,000 Sikhs how many were killed by the police, how many by the militants. How many of them were civilians,police and militants. Please provide credible evidence or facts or figures by independent sources
      IN 1984 , There was no sikh militant movement , 20000 sikhs were killed in 1984. Leading to fathers brothers and sons joining the the new born Khalistan movement.

    256. Dalbir — on 21st January, 2010 at 7:10 AM  

      Nobodys hero, your like a bus, you arrive three at a time. lol

    257. dogra — on 21st January, 2010 at 9:15 AM  

      “Taken from 1992 booklet, “The Bleeding Punjab: A Report to the Nation,” a joint publication of Surkh Rekha and Inqualabi Jantak Leeh. Editors: Amolak Singh and Jaspal Jassi.

      The Khalistani terrorists and their apologists, in a bid to hoodwink the masses, often keep on harping that “their Sikh struggle is not directed against any race, religion or community” but it is for “smashing the chains of slavery from around the necks of sikhs” and is directed against “the tyrannical brahmanical rulers at the centre.” But as the saying goes: the deeds are stronger than the words, the hundreds of cold-blooded mass murders of Hindus and ordinary toiling masses, their venomous communal tirade against the Hindus and Nirankaris (an off shoot of Sikhism), the forcible closure of all Nirankari Bhawans throughout the state, a spree of lootings, extortions, rapes and beatings let loose on the common people, the various fascist edicts aimed at crippling the democratic rights, aspirations and the lives of people of Punjab and numerous such other acts, all deride their pious exhortations. Let us examine them, albeit briefly, through their own words and deeds.

      Thoroughgoing Communalists

      Contrary to their loud claims, the Khalistani terrorists have nothing to do with the aspirations or interests of ordinary Punjabi people or even the Sikh masses. Instead, they are out and out and die-hard Sikh communal fundamentalists who are usuing communalism as a weapon in their reactionary power-struggle to grab the throne and resources of Punjab.

      The various differences, dissentions and inter-gang warfare among different Khalistani factions notwithstanding, all of them adhere to the ideology of late Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale and draw inspiration from his life and works. So it will be quite worthwhile to examine the preachings and practice of this rustic preacher-turned-politician in order to grasp the thinking and practice of Khalistani terrorists. Let us see what Bhindranwale has to say.

      Bhindranwale, issuing a clarion call to the Sikhs to get armed in order to confront the Hindus, says:

      “….Get armed. There is no need of getting licences. If the son of a Hindu needs no licence for possessing a grenade, if this off-spring of sheep and goats needs no licences for arms why the son of a lion (Singh) should ever bow and plead: ‘Please give me a weapon.’ Can’t confront a policeman…. understandable since they possess too many weapons. But if you Sikhs get thrashing from a shopkeeper, from a topiwala (i.e.a Hindu-editor), if the son of a lion gets a kick from the sheep and keeps quiet, he should rather die in shame….. Are we Singhs upto this much…?”

      Bhindranwale, not only stubbornly refused to condemn the murders of innocent Hindus, but at times he himself advocated them. When, in the wake of a murder of some police inspector by terrorists, suspected to be Bhindranwale’s men, the police detained a bus sent by Bhindranwale to bring some of his men, he, red with rage, immediately issued a warning to the police:

      “If the vehicle is not released by 5 P.M. and unconditionally I will slaughter 5000 Hindus in just one hour.”

      Justifying his threat of slaughtering Hindus en masse he propounded his thesis:

      “If a Hindu dies, the centre is shaken to its very roots. One must strike where it pinches most. Why to strike at a place where it hardly pinches?”

      A blantant Sikh communalist robed inside a pious and priestly-looking Blindranwale, is laid bare in all its nakedness when in a tape-recorded and widely circulated message to the Sikhs he unleashes an all-out open war against the Hindu community.

      “I humbly requested and got this detail from an educated person. Each one of us (Sikhs-edit) is upto 35 (Hindus). Just 35 and not a hundred. They are mere 66 crore. Each sikh has to take upon just 35 and no more, not even 36.”

      Inheriting, implementing and emulating Bhindranwale’s these venomous communal preachings, the Khalistani terrorists throughout their counter-revolutionary onslaught against the people of Punjab, kept on enacting the mass murders of innocent Hindus. They tried their every bit to incite Hindu-Sikh communal pogroms. The Khalistani terrorists issued/numerous threatening calls to the Hindus to flee Puniab. Hindu students were killed enmasse and the college authorities were issued instructions to admit only Sikh students in the professional colleges of the state. As per Khalistani commandments, all top posts in the administration, departments, universities should be filled with Sikhs, only Sikhs should be recruited as TV and radio announcers. Fleeing Hindus were forbidden to take their property along. Any Sikh, found guilty of taking care of a Hindu’s property or of tilling his land, was to be punished. According to the Khalistani’s, only those Hindus could stay back in Punjab who had reconciled to the sepremacy of Sikhs and wholeheartedly supported the Khalistani struggle. Numerous such other communal dictates were issued from time to time to the Hindus residing in Punjab.

      An Avowed Anti-People Force

      The Khalistani terrorists are guilty of committing innumerable crimes against the innocent ordinary people of Pubjab — Hindus and Sikhs alike. Brandishing AK 47’s and other sophisticated weapons they let loose a reign of terror against the people of Punjab, making their lives a living hell. As a result of a spate of killings, mass beatings, tortures, extortions, rapes, insults and other intimidating tactics, a large number of Hindus, well-to-do Sikh peasants, employees and many sections of self-respecting populace had to flee their houses in the villages to more safer places inside the adjoining cities or even states. People hesitate even to whisper against the Khalistani terrorists. Even then, hundreds of horror stories of Khalistani brutalities are widely known. Here is a brief description of Khalistani crimes against the people.

      Killings of Innocent People:

      Starting from 1982, throughout the decade, the Khalistani terrorists continued gunning down mercilessly the innocent people of Punjab, both Hindus and Sikhs, without any let up. The people were blasted to bits by planting and exploding bombs in crowded bazars public places, trains and buses, cinema houses and other busy places. According to a most conservative estimate, the Khalistani terrorists have butchered more than 20,000 people in the past ten years on the self-presumed pretext of their being police informers, anti-Sikh or defying their dictates. Even women, breast-sucking infants, children or aged people were not spared. There are very few villages in Punjab where someone or the other has not fallen prey to Khalistani bullets.

      Hindu passengers were alighted from the buses and trains and mercilessly murdered. Gruesome mass murders were committed for avenging the fake police encounters of the Khalistani terrorists. Whenever the Khalistani terrorists came under the intense pressure of the state security forces, the Khalistani invariably resorted to mass killings to loosen up the pressure. Again, the Khalistani terorists took to mass murders to divert the attention of the people and for sabotaging a negotiated settlement among the various reactionary ruling class factions in Punjab, whenever the opportunity arose. They even enacted massacres for just recording their presence and killing potential. Most often, the victims of Khalistani wrath without exception, were the innocent toiling masses of Punjab.

      The terrorists, inhuman and beastly as they are, often resorted to threats of eliminating their purported enemies alongwith their entire families. Hundreds of such families were completely wiped out. Apart for killing by raining from assault rifles and through bomb blasts, they at times hanged the people to death, burnt them alive or dragged them behind vehicles till death. In some cases, even properties were not spared. The farm houses, standing crops and livestock of the victims were burnt or destroyed. Many women were gang raped before killing them in a most ignominious fashion. More than 300 relatives of police personnel, mostly constables and home guard jawans, were brutally killed. Some whole families were decimated. Thousands of people, had to flee, leaving their homes and hearth’s behind, to the cities just for escaping the wrath of Khalistani terrorists.

      The victims, that fell prey to the Khalistani bullets included eminent revolutionary Punjabi poets, writers, academicians, engineers, trade union and political leaders, intellectuals and dozens of other worthy sons of Punjab. Their loss is an irreparable damage to Punjab.
      http://iref.homestead.com/Khalistan.html

      To sum up, one can hardly come across a Punjabi, be it Hindu or a Sikh who most confidently feels secure from the Khalistani terrorists. Even Khalistani terrorists feel equally insecure from the rival terrorists or their own companions. Scores of them have perished in inter-gang and inner-gang warfare. Insecurity and terror haunts the whole of Punjab”

    258. dogra — on 21st January, 2010 at 9:18 AM  

      “They were leading and driving the mob to sikh houses
      incitement to murder fucking genocide

      exactly, they did, and they need brimging to justice, but again you ignore Fascist bhindrawale incitement

    259. Deep Singh — on 21st January, 2010 at 2:38 PM  

      “Operation Woodrose took place immediately after the storming of the Golden Temple. It was an army swoop into the villages of Punjab, specifically targeting baptised Sikhs”

      Parvinder, again thanks for bringing forth the facts. The details of this operation need to be made availabel to all and sundry, particularly within the Sikh community (where several members are blissfully unaware of this matter).

      It is, as many in Punjab stated that the time, a return to the policies of the ruthless despot Mir Mannu, who 200 years ago launched similar policies against Sikhs - this is the one point, I wish that the BBC had picked up on, Operation Woodrose is nothing other than ethnic cleansing - if a similar policy was enacted in the UK today, I would be classified as a terrorist on little more than how I looked (i.e. have facial hair and a piece of cloth wrapped around my head).

    260. Eric Hunt — on 21st January, 2010 at 9:24 PM  

      Hey, Kulvinder get in touch with me !!!

      Primark Sale !! - Hope you are not a slapper ???

    261. comrade.. — on 21st January, 2010 at 11:11 PM  

      Nobody hero

      i am handsome man more pakistan looking than indian , would never date indian girls shit sex and too mouthy

      f you’re fit ill be whatever you want me to be. Forget the rabbit big boy i go like a primark sale
      your cheap and poor quality

      Is this how you address your sister/mother, typical Khalistani moron.

      Dogra,
      good post, but these khalistanis will never except the facts. I met Amolak Singh in 2008 when i was in Punjab. Check out the Link it’s on Paash the poet who was killed by the Khalistanis.

      http://paash.wordpress.com/?s=

    262. douglas clark — on 22nd January, 2010 at 12:06 AM  

      I seem to recall, Kulvinder as a kind of anarchist? Maybe one to play with sexual identity and stuff? If I’ve got the right name then he or she certainly took the pish out of me. But that was a long time ago…

      I think your chains have been comprehensively pulled. And your own morals exposed. Ooh, Err, Missus!

      Just sayin’.

    263. KJB — on 22nd January, 2010 at 12:25 AM  

      LMAO @ this thread. I am getting the impression that some people watched the Sonia Deol documentary in order to get offended? What Kitten said: a 1-hour doc is in no way going to bring forth the facts properly. The Widow Colony is seriously worth watching - I’ve seen it. I cried. I was struck by the fact that it is a film that is explicitly driven by a Sikh agenda - by Sikhs, for Sikhs - yet there is:

      a) No inevitable dragging-in of Khalistan
      b) No letting Bhindranwale hog most of the attention, and
      c) No demonisation of Hindus/Muslims as far as I remember. I think it may even have featured a Muslim man who hid some of his Sikh neighbours to protect them, unless I am mixing it up with other docs on 1984, but I doubt it.

      In short, it takes a logical approach, interviewing those who lost almost everything, highlighting worthier causes than Khalistan (like getting the widows and their families better pensions and seeking State recognition of the events). Word to the Khalistanis - unless you’ve actually lost immediate relatives in 1984, back off. It’s the victims - like the widows - we should be giving our attention to, not you.

    264. nobodys hero — on 22nd January, 2010 at 5:34 PM  

      back off. It’s the victims – like the widows – we should be giving our attention to, not you

      about bring the culprits like sajjan kumar and jagdish tytler who are ministers in the present day indian government.Where are the anti bhindrawale sikh brigade are the campaigning to bring these bastards to justice.Or like manmohan singh willing to have them in his government career before principles

    265. nobodys hero — on 22nd January, 2010 at 5:38 PM  

      Out of all the south asian groups the present punjabis have become
      least respected due to their lack of morals and values
      and are known as punjabi paddies

    266. comrade.. — on 22nd January, 2010 at 6:49 PM  

      Nobody hero, Dalbir.
      link to the report Who are the Guilty. more lefties propaganda

      Report of a Joint Inquiry into the Causes and Impact of the Riots in Delhi from 31 October to 10 November.

      In terms of sheer impact, this is arguably the greatest report brought out by an NGO anywhere in the country. A lot of that impact is because of the timing of its release. The small booklet was brought out within a month of the November 1984 holocaust. The findings of two leading human rights organisations, People’s Union for Democratic Rights (PUDR) and People’s Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL) were on the lips of everybody. The booklet created an instant buzz because it came out when the country was amidst an election under the shadow of Indira Gandhi’s assassination and the subsequent massacre of Sikhs in Delhi.

      http://www.carnage84.com/human/guilty/menu.htm

    267. Jay Singh — on 23rd January, 2010 at 1:25 PM  

      I had four problems with the documentary:

      1. The personal journey by Sonia Deol, which was half-hearted, inappropriate, and patronising.

      2. The interview with General Brar was not strong enough. If this was a documentary about religious identity (which it appeared to be for the majority), then he should have been asked how he reconciles his faith with his actions at the Golden Temple complex. If it was about the events of 1984 and its lead-up, then he should have been questioned more about the pilgrims attacked in the lodgings surrounding the complex, the timing around Guru Arjan Dev Ji’s martyrdom commemorations, the fire in the Sikh Reference Library and the whereabouts of the ’stolen’ documents, and the attacks on the other gurdwaras. In either event, a more ‘Paxman-esque’ approach would have had a greater impact.

      3. There should have been more intensive questioning of Bhindranwale’s supporters, querying their involvement in militancy for a ‘Sikh homeland’, the killings in the Punjab of Hindus and Sikhs at their hands, the creation of a fortress in the Golden Temple complex when no such thing had ever occurred in the preceding 400 year history of the area, the disrespect caused by Bhindranwale by having his sleeping quarters higher than the resting place of the Guru Granth Sahib, the bombing of the Air India flight in 1985, and the continued threat posed by the banned allied organisations of the Babbar Khalsa and ISYF.

      4. There was no discussion of the fact that the Shiromani Akali Dal (SAD) continues to use the events of 1984 to further its own political agenda, despite the fact that many of their members remained mute on the militancy during the 1980s and that they were complicit in the fortification of the complex. The validity of the SAD’s calls for the Congress Party to be open about the events of 1984 and the whereabouts of the Sikh Reference Library documents was also not questioned, when in fact the SAD formed part of the Coalition Government between 1998 and 2004 and they were in a position to make good those enquiries at that time.

      The documentary was a missed opportunity for the BBC, and it’s a shame that it left so many stones unturned.

    268. nobodys hero — on 24th January, 2010 at 12:07 AM  

      There should have been more intensive questioning of Bhindranwale’s supporters, querying their involvement in militancy for a ‘Sikh homeland’, the killings in the Punjab of Hindus and Sikhs at their hands, the creation of a fortress in the Golden Temple complex when no such thing had ever occurred in the preceding 400 year history of the area, the disrespect caused by Bhindranwale by having his sleeping quarters higher than the resting place of the Guru Granth Sahib, the bombing of the Air India flight in 1985, and the continued threat posed by the banned allied organisations of the Babbar Khalsa and ISYF.

      wheres your 5 question about sajjan kumar an jagdish tytler who killed 7000 sikhs together. but as a punjbai paddi you dont care . LET SIKHS DIE THEY ARE NOT FASHIONABLE LIKE PALISTINIANS

    269. Dalbir — on 24th January, 2010 at 12:20 AM  

      For the record. Those Paddies are alright. They are like our lost long brothers. Only they have a lot more charm than us. lol

      They are the best of the whiteman.

    270. nobodys hero — on 24th January, 2010 at 12:45 AM  

      sunny and bassi true coconuts

    271. Dalbir — on 24th January, 2010 at 12:55 AM  

      To his credit, at least Sunny can talk about 1984 without frothing at the mouth like some. He never tries to cover up the government gundh from what I’ve seen.

    272. dogra — on 24th January, 2010 at 7:06 PM  

      Comrade, thanks for the links, truth of the fascist Bhindrawale and his followers is all to clear, but also we agree the butchers who incited the Delhi genocide of innocent people just because they were Sikh, need bringing to justice, like Jagdish Tytler and Sajan Kumar and their army of killers who followed their fascist incitements.
      A butcher is a butcher despite whatever religion
      A incitier is a fascist despite whatever religion
      A killer is a killer despite whatever religion,
      All condemned equally, no ifs and no buts!

    273. RKP — on 25th January, 2010 at 11:06 PM  

      i think tht every1s leering off the discussion guys cmon kulvinder eric go do that sumwhere else not appropriate here, i think the doc was veri gud 4 jst an hour, the personal perspective out into it helped relate and she was impartial - she didnt say it was al gvernments fault nd she didnt say it was all bhindrawales fault, me- i think that if Bhindrawale wasnt ther that wdnt hav happend. SaNT Jarnail Singh shdnt hav bin there and Indira Ghandi shdnt hav given orders for the army 2 go into 1 of the most religious shrines in sikhi and kill innocent pilgrims.

      If Bhindrawale hdnt hav bin ther it wwdnt hav happend, But sumthin made him thnk that way sumthin mad Sant Jarnail singh to take a “stand” agenst the gov’t.wat ?

      wat made Bhindrawale revolt agenst the government ?
      reply plz thnx guys :)

    274. nobodys hero — on 26th January, 2010 at 7:32 AM  

      long ago a nasty women,Indira Gandhi with her mad son was in charge of India. Sanjay liked to give away radios to muslims men in exchange for their testicles. When indira never got her own way she would get angry.During 1977-78, she became boiling mad and sanjay was given a large assignment of stereo radios.Because she was not happy, she declared a state of emergency in india .Arresting political opponents and any one who disagreed with her. over 140000 people were arrested. a large proportion were sikhs from the punjab, who were very vocal against her abuse of political power.
      Eventually the rule of law was re installed in india and Indira gandhi was charged with abusing political power. She was found guilty ,sentenced to prison. But served only one day because she had friends in high places.Indira Gandhi made an vow to distroy the sikh power base in punjab. By Hook crook nirankari bhindrawale or golden temple attack she wanted it dismantled.But it never was ,she lost her life trying

    275. Dalbir — on 5th February, 2010 at 1:05 PM  

      I know it is a bit late in the day but I just thought I’d post this.

      Is it evidence that Mark Tully has gone a bit senile in his old age?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFecbop0rMk&feature=channel

    276. raj.b — on 15th March, 2010 at 3:44 PM  

      even after addressing the issue the bbc are still slandered by khalistanis. the sikh federation should be banned, i seen their pictures at a gurdwara local to me. And in punjabi news papers. The sikh channel claim to be promoting democracy when talk shows on their anti secular dreams of a khalistan is totally biased. The dorky sukhy bart shouldn’t get involved as he will come under scrutiny for having an opinion lol. Khalistanians easily criticise hindus for being imposters when dhadrianwale easily accumulated lakhs of rupees on his birthday lol you should see the documentary from chardi kala time tv



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