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  • Technorati: graph / links

    Harry’s Place in selective hysteria shocker


    by Sunny on 22nd July, 2009 at 2:33 am    

    There’s a funny little spat going on. So last week Mehdi Hasan from the New Statesman wrote an article highlighting the different way the media treats a Muslim terrorist and a non-Muslim (far-right in this case) terrorist. Pretty obvious I thought. But Brett at Harry’s Place took umbrage on behalf of all people who feel white people are being victimised equally and there’s no bias obviously.

    I mean it’s not like there’s a media panic about Muslims is there? It’s not like there’s been stories of Muslim bus drivers chucking people off the bus so he could pray. Obviously there’s not been any on Muslims drawing up a hit-list of prominent Jews to get them back over Gaza. No one could ever imagine a story of Muslim youths attacking a soldier’s house after Afghanistan.

    You certainly would not believe that these stories would make the front page AND they turned out to be lies. That would never happen because are media is so balanced. Neither would you see prominent right-wing columnists writing about Eurabia and the ‘coming Muslim threat and all that’. Our press is the paragon of equal treatment to all nasty people. In group bias? That would never happen!

    So Brett thought he’d be clever and prove Mehdi Hasan wrong. Mehdi wrote back with a cutting email that smacked down Brett so hard I’m surprised he brought it up again. But this time he’s trying to teach me Media 101 about why the coverage is completely balanced and there’s no need for people getting all heated up.

    Which is funny, because last year when a Starbucks got smashed up, Brett said people were “hoping to incite Kristallnacht 2.0?“. Now you could NOT call that hysteria. That would be a perfectly calm and rational and well-founded question. Who could ever accuse Brett of being a tool who can only muster up hysteria in certain circumstances? Besides, when it comes to Muslims - they just all complain too much anyway innit?

    It’s funny though. When I tried to teach the Harry’s Place crew a bit of Media 101 and point out why Sri Lanka wasn’t getting as much coverage as Israel/Palestine - they weren’t having any of it. At that time the media just had it in for brown-skinned folk. Funny, haven’t seen any mention of Sri Lanka recently on Harry’s Place either. Lots of mention of nasty Muslims though…



    Filed in: Islamists, Media, Terrorism




    • JuliaM
      "Mehdi wrote back with a cutting email that smacked down Brett so hard I’m surprised he brought it up again."

      I guess you must be reading a different 'Harry's Place' to everyone else. In our universe, that weak rebuttal was torn to utter shreds and served to makle Mehdi look even more foolish than his NS article.

      And most people didn't think that was even possible...
    • billericaydicky
      I,m not sure what is going on here because all of a sudden events of six months ago are being rehashed. Because they took place on "my manor" and I was involved let me recap.

      There was an out break of anti Jewish grafitti in a small area of Whitechapel near to the East London Islamic centre and the East London Mosque. The picture of the Starbucks that was attacked is twenty or so yards from those buildings and immediately to the rear of the Starbucks in a series of streets just off Brick Lane "Kill the Jews" was painted on walls and on the side of the sunken football pitch in Heneage Street.

      When council workers arrived to clean it off they were attacked by Bangladeshi youths and had to have police protection to finish the job. Photographs of all this exist.

      There has been a rise in racial attacks on white people especially those using Brick Lane at night and a few years ago a petrol bomb was thrown into the Pride of Spitalfield pub also in Heneage St. The drinkers managed to escape and the fire was quickly put out.

      There are two reasons for this rising anti white and anti semitic feeling amongst young Bangladeshi people. One is the presence of Islamic Forum Europe which although it claims its European HQ is at 198 Mile End Rd is actually based in the Islamic Centre.

      This centre, built with Saudi money and very Saudi influenced, regularly hosts extremist Saudi clerics called for war against the Infidels who seem to include Jews and Christians as well as Hindus.

      Whilst attention has been concentrated on Pakistani youths in the midlands and the north an aqually potentially dangerous situation is developing in East London largely ignored by the mainstream media.

      The second and equally dangerous motivating factor has been the presence of Respect which, for quite different but just as destructive reasons, has been stirring up a hatred not just of Jews but of all things western.

      Some of the stuff coming out of Respect, particularly the off the record propaganda,was the vilest anti semitic propaganda which the Nazis would not have been ashamed of.

      It is true that Respect has fallen apart and that from the close of the count on election night 2006 the SWP had lost control of it but a huge amount of damage has been done becuase of years of anti Israeli pro Palestinian agit prop which has alienated a generation of young Bangladeshis.

      Add to this volatile mixture a high unemployment rate and there is a potentially explosive mixture. Exacerbating all this is the fact that there are now a couple of generations of Bangladeshis who have never know white people socially.

      Thirty years ago there was a mix in the area and there was still the remains of the Jewish community. It is difficult to dehumanise Whites and Jews when you have them as your neighbours. Jews are now seen as Israeli soldiers and whites as the people getting out of taxis in Brick Lane to spend as much in a Restaurant as the young man washing the dishes will earn in a week.

      What Sunny and others do here is indulge their fantasies of an establishment conspiracy to denigrate Muslims by highlighting their atrocities and downplaying those of the far right. They latch onto, certainly inappropriate, words like "Kristalnacht" instead of looking at the picture as a whole.

      Whether or not a conspiracy exists or not is measured by the amount of column inches or air time given to a particular incident. The events of six months ago in the Brick Lane area were totally played down by the press and I believe that the exposure given to the increasing number of right wingers has been comensurate with the threat they currently pose.

      The New Statesman has never been a journal of record and now staggers on God knows how. When you have people like Tony Benn, Livingston and Tariq Ali writing for it you know it is on deaths door.

      There is an element writing here as well as on Socialist Unity that would not be out of place in a scholl playground going nha nha nha nha nha. Grow up some of you.
    • atropos
      Sunny. thought I'd check your story. The reaction of Harry's Place posters can be summed up in this post:

      venichka
      16 July 2009, 1:21 pm

      What a fucking twat. Sorry, I should attack his actions, not the actor. What utter bollocks, then.
    • Undaunted
      Billericay Dicky has summed up the reality of a toxic zone of the New East End.

      The only other people who will tell the truth about this sort of unpleasant reality blog of sites where decent goodthinkful folk never browse; the B.N.P. websites, and more especially, other Rightist websites like that of the National Front.

      B.D. mentions that off-the-record RESPECT opropaganda was and is vile. Does this include the fabulous yarn that Oona King was sending half her salary to the Israeli Armed Forces?
    • Cheesy Monkey
      I wouldn't wipe my shit with Harry's Place's arse.
    • cjcjc
      It's sad / odd because in many areas HP and PP agree about a great deal.

      The commenters (on both sites!) can leave a bit to be desired of course...

      One bloke keeps referring to Sunny as Toad of Toad Hall, which isn't an insult as far as I'm concerned.
      I loved that character.
      Poop poop!
    • Gareth Penn
      This blog oneupmanship is a complete waste of time and does nothing but make all parties involved look purile and petty.

      Write about the issues, let people make up their own minds (we are able to read more than one blog, aren't we?) and leave the comments sections for the slagging and slinging.

      Rebuttle is one thing, sneering at each other across the internet is another.
    • Where's Sid?
      If you see him, tell him
    • Rumbold
      Sunny:

      But Mehdi Hasan did get it completly wrong about the lack of coverage. And Brett exposed that. If Mr. Hasan just wanted to make the point about how aspects of the reaction to non-Muslim/Muslim cases were different, then fair enough. But he went further by saying that people were not covering it.
    • chairwoman
      "I wouldn’t wipe my shit with Harry’s Place’s arse."

      Fascinating as your opinion is, is it possible that you could re-phrase it in a manner that doesn't make me feel physically sick?

      I avoid sites such as yours because of their gratuitous use of graphic men's room language.

      Let it stay there where it's accepted and expected.
    • Random Guy
      I think one of the main points Sunny is bringing up is that HP is selective and biased in its coverage. I agree completely, and reading the link in this post just confirms it.
    • Leon
      What blog or media outlet isn't selective? What blog or media outlet doesn't have a bias? What blog or media outlet doesn't have a political agenda?
    • Random Guy
      PP?
    • Daniel Hoffmann-Gill
      We all know Harry's Place is a bag of bollocks (aside from the smashing Edmund Standing who does some great anti-BNP work) but what is more interesting is why JuliaM keeps coming to a place she disagrees with so much?
    • Imran Khan
      "There are two reasons for this rising anti white and anti semitic feeling amongst young Bangladeshi people. One is the presence of Islamic Forum Europe which although it claims its European HQ is at 198 Mile End Rd is actually based in the Islamic Centre.

      This centre, built with Saudi money and very Saudi influenced, regularly hosts extremist Saudi clerics called for war against the Infidels who seem to include Jews and Christians as well as Hindus.

      Whilst attention has been concentrated on Pakistani youths in the midlands and the north an aqually potentially dangerous situation is developing in East London largely ignored by the mainstream media."

      You don't half talk nonsense. The centre is actually mainly paid for by the local community. It hosts regular events for the local community - muslim and non-muslim including exhibitions and talks which are open to all.

      The extremists talks you refer to are by other organisations who have hired the hall.

      The mosque is well run and a source of great pride for the local community and it does a great deal of outreach work but you just want to come here and smear all that.

      Sure there is tension in the area but that can't have anything to do with the rise of the right nope its all the fault of the Muslims.

      The centre can do more outreach work in the community but that doesn't detract from the work it does.

      At least get your facts right before posting such nonsense. The centre was by and large paid for by the local community who ran various fund raising campaigns including sponsoring bricks to build the building. Thats where most of the money came from.
    • soru
      Your claim seems to be that you (and Hasan) are right in principle, so right that your rightness remains unsullied even if the specific evidence contradicts you.

      To summarise the long threads on this:

      actual mass-casualty bombs: lots of coverage.
      individual murder, group with a plan, or lone nutter with a bomb: some coverage
      lone nutter with a plan: limited coverage

      Look at it this way. If you were in some meaningful sense right, then the balance in coverage would be set comes mainly from the fact that 'journalists hate Muslims', as opposed to, say, 'journalists love big stories'. Shouldn't there actually be some evidence showing that?

      Shouldn't you be able to find stories that actually _were_ ignored?

      Because what it seems like is there are stories that,. following your model, you _predicted_ would be ignored.

      But, as it turned out, they weren't. But instead of admitting you were wrong, you just get angry.
    • Imran Khan
      Chairwoman - "Fascinating as your opinion is, is it possible that you could re-phrase it in a manner that doesn’t make me feel physically sick?"

      How about Harry's Place is a biased site which is effectively a Pro-Israel Propaganda Machine.
    • Yahya Birt
      Credit where it's due, Edmund Standing's piece, "The Return of the National Front", on HP significantly dents the far-right terrorist "lone nutter" argument. Yet it's bloggers picking this up, not the press, right?

      http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/07/21/the-retu...

      I'm not clear exactly how the aggregator system on the Google News Search, the role of news agencies, and so on work or don't work in giving a news story global exposure. No-one's given a proper explanation for the uninitiated on either side. So I'll (in true politic fashion) leave that aside for one moment.

      In any case, the argument is not really about the extent of press coverage but how the issue is framed, analysed and commented on.
    • Given you're a big defender of the BNP JuliaM - forgive me I don't take your opinions or you seriously.

      Rumbold: But Mehdi Hasan did get it completly wrong about the lack of coverage.

      Er, not really. As Mehdi quite rightly pointed out, media coverage isn't simply a bunch of articles tucked away in page 27. It's also primetime discussions and debates - it's also news reports on the matter.

      The same day the wannabe Muslim terrorist story turned up on the front page even Krishnan Guru Murthy from Channel 4 news said the same thing - the coverage was completely biased against Muslims between that white Muslim kid and the far-right bomber.
    • cjcjc
      @15
      The extremists talks you refer to are by other organisations who have hired the hall.

      Perhaps a more selective hiring policy is called for?
    • soru
      Er, not really. As Mehdi quite rightly pointed out, media coverage isn’t simply a bunch of articles tucked away in page 27. It’s also primetime discussions and debates – it’s also news reports on the matter.

      Which, of course, you equally don't see in the majority of other comparable wannabe-terrorist cases.

      I think you would be better off arguing as follows:

      Usually, in journalism terms, when something happens commonly, it stops being news. People die on the roads every day, ~400 a year. Whearas not every 5 year period has a rail crash. So any rail crash is front page news, a 20 car pileup with 10 dead may just make page 15.

      As it happens in the contemporary UK,
      Islamist terrorism is on a larger scale, with more people involved and so more frequent discovery of plots. Consequently, you would in the normal course of events expect the media to stop covering it heavily, in favour of novel stories like right wing terrorism.

      The fact that it retains about equal coverage is a sure sign of bias in the media.
    • Imran Khan
      cjcjc - "Perhaps a more selective hiring policy is called for?"

      Yes indeed but equally there needs to be an end to the very hysteria that Sunny is talking about which labels almost every Muslim organisation or talk as an event run by extremists because they don't meet the neocon criteria of blindly accepting neocon policy to invade Islamic countries for oil, accepting every action of Israel and signing up to neocon doctrine.

      Little known fact is that when the mosque was being built the synagogue next door requested quietly that building be limited on a very holy Jewish Holiday, the centre stopped all building work at their own significant cost to avoid problems for the synagogue. The synagogue was so grateful for this action they told everyone about it but its rarely mentioned as that would of course paint a very different picture to the one that certain people want to portray.

      The exhibitions and outreach work done by the mosque is very popular locally but that rarely gets mentioned.

      They do lots of interfaith and inter community work but that rarely gets mentioned.

      The media and a lot of writers at HP are simply out to generate hysterical rants and that itself is a major cause of community tension.

      This is why organzations such as the BoD are launching their own outreach and working with Muslim organizations.
    • Islamist terrorism is on a larger scale, with more people involved and so more frequent discovery of plots. Consequently, you would in the normal course of events expect the media to stop covering it heavily, in favour of novel stories like right wing terrorism.

      oh dear - I didn't know you were copying and pasting your ideas directly from HP these days. Perhaps should think about them before. Most people caught under 'Islamist terrorism' have been crazy loners. Not to say all have, but many have. The last guy certainly was.

      Secondly, there is plenty of ccordination between far-right groups. National Front anyone? Skrewdriver? Red Watch? Stormfront? Are you really telling me these people involved don't grow out of these cradles of nuttery? So yes, there are plenty of people involved in far-right extremism too, some are driven to manufacture bombs. Others have not yet crossed over.

      But the Met Police acknowledged that people were underestimating the danger from far-right extremism, and that some of these groups were new.

      Where's that media discussion?
    • soru
      'Most people caught under ‘Islamist terrorism’ have been crazy loners.'

      The point being, where that is the case, in most cases you don't get the front page headlines either.

      I'm not going to resort to insults or anything, I'm just going to keep restating the facts. You do see made up and overplayed stories about muslims: however that doesn't seem to cross over into far right stories being underplayed.

      Muslims may not have the best public image of late, but they are still somewhat above Nazis...

      I don't think you would be so irrational on this topic if you didn't know you were in the wrong on this one...
    • Soru, more stuff for you:

      One woman said Lewington told her he had been on National Front marches, and had knowledge of firearms.
      ...
      = a handwritten book called "WAFFEN SS UK MEMBERS HANDBOOK" containing a "STATEMENT FROM THE COMMAND COUNCIL WAFFEN SS UK" and sections called "PICKING TARGET AREAS", "TRANSPORTING DEVICES", "TARGETING/ATTACKING PARTS", "COUNTERSURVEILLANCE"


      http://cms.met.police.uk/news/convictions/right...


      Last weekend it was revealed that a network of suspected extremists with access to 300 weapons and 80 bombs has been uncovered by counter- terrorism detectives.
      Thirty-two people were questioned by police and 22 properties were raided over an alleged plot to bomb mosques.
      It was the biggest terrorist arms haul since the IRA mainland bombings in the 1990s.


      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198003...



      Mark Gardner, of the Community Security Trust, which monitors violence against Jews, said there has been a surge in right-wing incidents.
      He said: 'Ten years after the Nazi nail bombings in London, we are seeing increasing numbers of neo-Nazis being arrested in their attempts to start some kind of so-called race war.
      'It is the Muslim community that appears to be most targeted, but all of society is at risk, and we are in regular discussion with police about the problem.


      Still the work of loners eh?
    • Imran Khan
      Soru - "Muslims may not have the best public image of late, but they are still somewhat above Nazis…"

      Yes which is why the right wing is now actively comparing them to Nazi's.

      The point is the media are lame when discussing extremism in all communities except the ethnic minorities.
    • soru
      Can you clarify whether you are making the argument that:

      1. an organisation called the 'WAFFEN SS UK' exists, and distributes a handwritten handbook to its members.

      2. the Daily Mail is not covering this story, as can be shown by a link to the Daily Mail?

      3. one issue can't be on a larger scale with more people involved unless every other issue is completely the work of isolated individuals with no two people involved talking to each other?

      Or are you just saying stuff at random because you know the kind of thing you want to say, know the people you want to oppose and those you want to like you, but you haven't actually yet found a way of saying such a thing that you can persuade yourself is true?
    • chairwoman
      Imran - You are unfailingly polite and your level of debate is always high. This was not about the contents of Harry's place but purely about the gratuitous use of scatalogical imagery.

      I would hate this site to go down that path.
    • The Common Humanist
      Oh heck. More handbags between PP and HP.

      Look, both sites do sterling work highlighting extremism and combating far right and far left idiocy and worse.
    • Boyo
      Without wishing to comment on coverage per say, if there was less on right wing terrorists than Muslim ones, perhaps that reflects organisational news values - right wingers are going after minorities, who are by definition in a minority, while Islamists are going after the majority. Equally, attacks on Jews rarely get significant coverage because they are an even smaller minority. I'm not sure it's a question of bias, so much as economics - people care less about issues that do not dirtectly affect them.

      Sorry ;-)
    • Katy Newton
      Given you’re a big defender of the BNP JuliaM – forgive me I don’t take your opinions or you seriously.

      I'm not sure how much JuliaM and I agree on but she's made it clear again and again that she's not, or at least she has whenever I've read her.
    • JuliaM
      "I’m not sure how much JuliaM and I agree on but she’s made it clear again and again that she’s not, or at least she has whenever I’ve read her."

      He knows that full well. I challenged Daniel Hoffman-Gill - who said the same thing - to find a post or comment I've made explicitly supporting them on the 'BNP's Barnbrook first lies, then hides' thread, and he couldn't do it. Because there are none.

      Sunny presumably hope, like Hoffman-Gill, that if he says it enough times, people will assume it's true.

      Frankly, I don't expect any honest dealings from either of them, so I'm not really surprised.
    • There's a phrase used by JuliaM quite a lot, or at least a version of it, that may interest you Katy. It goes like:

      "If it walks like a duck... quacks like a duck..."
    • Boyo - I think you're quite right actually. But that still doesn't invalidate my point. But at least you're being honest.
    • munir
      HP is a centre of Muslim hating zionazis on the net

      It says it all about them that when a far right terrorist was arrested trying to kill Muslims there reaction was ..to run a story attacking Muslims!!!

      When David "The Muslims are coming and they are going swimming" T wrote an article criticisng Eurabia (the modern day protocols) - the response was this

      http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/07/19/eurabia-...

      The vast majority of HP readers saying Eurabia (the modern day protocols) is true!!!

      Just demonstrates it if any more proof were needed that the Jewish community is rife with Muslim haters

      This is our own cjcjc
      "I am sure that David is right in the sense that the whole of Britain will not turn into Tower Hamlets.
      That does not solve the problem of Tower Hamlets."
    • JuliaM
      "There’s a phrase used by JuliaM quite a lot, or at least a version of it, that may interest you Katy. It goes like:

      “If it walks like a duck… quacks like a duck…”..."


      Except, of course, that Sunny won't be able to find any posts or comments from me explicitly supporting the BNP. Because I don't and there are none.

      So what Sunny has is something that doesn't 'walk like a duck', OR 'quack like a duck' but which he insists on pointing to and saying 'Look! A duck!'.

      Everyone else, looking at a sparrow, sadly shakes their head in pity...
    • Except, of course, that Sunny won’t be able to find any posts or comments from me explicitly supporting the BNP. Because I don’t and there are none.

      You don't get the phrase that well do you? It's not about you explicitly supporting them, but sounding exactly like them. In fact your comments in the article about asylum seekers is exactly that one their campaigning poster. You could be pictured smack bang in the middle. You probably were:
      http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/07/22/the...
    • cjcjc
      Munir - I'm sorry, I mis-spoke on that thread - what I meant to say is that all is well in Tower Hamlets and the bastion of moderation and good sense that is the East London Mosque
    • JuliaM
      "It’s not about you explicitly supporting them, but sounding exactly like them."

      Rubbish. Is that the best you can do? Tarring everyone who mentions anything to do with immigration - illegal immigration, at that! - as 'racist'?

      Oh. Right. It is, isn't it? That's why a socialist, racist party is gaining ground rapidly.

      /golfclap
    • I come back to your favourite phrase... "if it quacks like a duck..."
    • munir
      cjcjc
      "Munir – I’m sorry, I mis-spoke on that thread – what I meant to say is that all is well in Tower Hamlets and the bastion of moderation and good sense that is the East London Mosque"

      Like the moderation and good sense of Betar ?

      35000 Attend Betar Led pro-Israel Rally in London

      "Betar believes in a 23 state solution with Israel from Sinai to the Golan, from the Jordan to the Mediterranean for the Hebrew people as one state and with the 22 states- members of the Arab league- as the natural homeland for the Arab populations. Betar opposes the creation of any Arab state in the Land of Israel and all those who cherish peace in the Middle East should be opposed to such failed policies. "

      http://www.betar.co.uk/news.php

      So how do we solve the problem of Golders Green?
    • Cjcjc
      You are obviously unfamiliar with the saying that two wrongs don't make a right.
      You might also point me to Golders Green's epidemic of racist gaffiti...
    • Imran Khan
      Munir - "So how do we solve the problem of Golders Green?"

      We solve the problems of Golders Green and Tower Hamlets by community interaction. These extreme positions are manifest because the communities are divided because of Israel and Palestine issues and there needs to be a two pronged approach to resolve these problems by tackling the Israel and Palestine issue and building better community relations.

      We did this and they did that is getting us all nowhere.

      I blame the mosques and synagogues for a failure to address the issue of better community relations and this needs action to tackle it.

      We can continue to point fingers and say they did that but at the end of the day we all live a few miles apart from each other but are separated by a massive gulf.

      Harry's Place and DaveT is itself sadly reason enough to want to overcome our problems and tackle issues because if we don't they'l be more and more Harry's Place and they like and more and more people acting like DaveT.

      The past few years have taught me that we need action to resolve issues.

      Don't forget the Quranic Verse that be just even if it is against yourself. So where is the justice in they did this and that!

      We need to stand up and be counted and hassle our mosques and synagogues to action on tackling the gulf that exists between our communities.

      I would love to be able to show Chairwoman and Katy around an exhibition in a mosque showing them what Islam is and I'd love to be able to go to a Synagogue so they can show me their religion. From there over a cup of tea and a bite to eat we can discuss issues. That is more productive that where we are now.
    • Imran Khan
      cjcjc - "You might also point me to Golders Green’s epidemic of racist gaffiti…"

      Its usually to be found in the pages of the right wing press and authored by a variety of famous graffiti artists. Take your pick.
    • Shatterface
      'The same day the wannabe Muslim terrorist story turned up on the front page even Krishnan Guru Murthy from Channel 4 news said the same thing – the coverage was completely biased against Muslims between that white Muslim kid and the far-right bomber.'

      At least you've done some homework now. Wen you wrote your original article contrasting the coverage of the two wackjobs you characterised them as a 'Muslim' and a 'white' guy.
    • Imran Khan
      cjcjc - "the bastion of moderation and good sense that is the East London Mosque"

      So far you have smeared the East London Mosque and yet you fail to show that it is the bastion of antisemitism which you claim.

      The mosque has good relations with the Synagogue which is next door. Few such places exist in England. The mosque has always been sensitive to its neighbour and has worked to build community relations through various outreach programmes.

      Just because the right wing blogs and press malign the mosque doesn't make the accusations true.

      Last year the mosque was accused of trying to force out the synagogue and yet the paper which published the allegations has failed to provide any proof.

      Such stupid hysteria is to sell papers and are peddled regardless of facts.
    • munir
      cjcjc
      "You are obviously unfamiliar with the saying that two wrongs don’t make a right."

      No I am totally familira with it- it underscore my opposition to dispossesing the Palestinians to make land for Jew because of the holocaust

      "You might also point me to Golders Green’s epidemic of racist gaffiti…"

      Perhaps you could point me to the racist "gaffiti" in East London because although I dont live there I am there quite a bit and have never seen any.

      Let assume (big assumption) you are telling the truth- how does some idiot Muslim youth, not supported by the Muslim community, spraying some graffiti in some obscure alley, which few will see and will soon be wiped away compare with Jewish extremists like Mel Phillips or Richard Desmond spewing extreme hatred of Muslims to millions every day, supported by the Jewish community?
    • munir
      Imran Khan
      "I would love to be able to show Chairwoman and Katy around an exhibition in a mosque showing them what Islam is and I’d love to be able to go to a Synagogue so they can show me their religion. From there over a cup of tea and a bite to eat we can discuss issues. That is more productive that where we are now."

      Imran you are forgetting that the Muslim and Jewish comuunities in Stamford Hill have excellent relations and regularly co-operate. This is because the Jews there are moderate Jews from groups like Neterui Karta.

      The problem is we are deaing with zionism which is a fascist racist nazi philosphy which cannot be argued with and is fundamentally anti-Muslim, anti-Arab and indeed anti anything non-Jewish.
    • Imran Khan
      Munir - "This is because the Jews there are moderate Jews from groups like Neterui Karta."

      Neterui Karta are a small organisations and they can't be the sole contact for building better relations.

      "The problem is we are deaing with zionism which is a fascist racist nazi philosphy which cannot be argued with and is fundamentally anti-Muslim, anti-Arab and indeed anti anything non-Jewish."

      No we are not dealing with it and that mentality has to stop. We are dealing with a community here who may support Israel but largely don't support everything it does. The same as Muslims support Palestine but not everything the Palestinians do.

      We either build better community relations or leave the ground to Mel Phillips, daveT and co.

      So the choice is clear we have to work together to build better relations.
    • chairwoman
      Imran - Were I sufficiently mobile I would love to come :)

      Zionism does not represent any of the things that you and Munir feel that it does. What the majority of Zionists want, I'm not saying all, because we all have our lunatics, is a safe Jewish state within the pre-1967 borders, living in harmony with its Muslim neighbours.

      But if you would like to come for tea, I would happily arrange that.
    • Imran Khan
      Munir - "Perhaps you could point me to the racist “gaffiti” in East London because although I dont live there I am there quite a bit and have never seen any."

      At a guess he/she is raking up old ground when tensions were inflamed by the Gaza op.

      I have been to East London many times and indeed the mosque and never seen this and in fact many Jews I know have fondness for East London and have visited East London Mosque and well as the Regents Park Mosque.

      Shows what a bit of hysterics can do to distort a picture.
    • chairwoman
      Imran - I've not been to the East End for some time, unfortunately, but the last time I was there I was just as welcome in Muslim shops and restaurants as I was in the Brick Lane Beigel Bakery.

      I personally have not seen graffitti, but that doesn't mean that their hasn't been any.
    • Imran Khan
      Chairwoman - "Zionism does not represent any of the things that you and Munir feel that it does. What the majority of Zionists want, I’m not saying all, because we all have our lunatics, is a safe Jewish state within the pre-1967 borders, living in harmony with its Muslim neighbours."

      I didn't actually say much on Zionism and I tend to agree with your summary. Oddly enough I have met a few very ardent Zionists and I mean really hardcore but once away from the Middle East many had over the years tempered their views to basically the philosophy you outline above.

      However I do go back to my point that we really need to do something and increasingly I find myself frustrated that better community relations are not being built.

      I know some people who are trying to arrange a joint (Jewish/Muslim) event to bring together communities but it is taking time for them so lets hope and pray they succeed and maybe we PP'ers can meet there :-)
    • Imran Khan
      Chairwoman - "I personally have not seen graffitti, but that doesn’t mean that their hasn’t been any."

      Agreed and I did say there had been some isolated incidents but equally it isn't a community organised thing. Indeed the CST has been at pains to emphasise that overall much of the antisemitism isn't from Muslims but from the far right.

      I've been in Golders Green at the height of the Gaza troubles and I didn't have any problems either. Hence my faith that the community relations can be built but we need to get on with it.
    • marvin
      The 'outrage' at the difference in press coverage cos one a had a beard and was a muslim so was so utterly predictable I don't know why you lefties bother.

      Of cause none of you was outraged at the obsession of a white youth murdering a black youth to the virtual entire exclusion of all other racial murders for years after the Stephen Lawrence murder.

      It's economics. Flavour of the month. The ongoing story/scandal/outrage.

      If 11th September and numerous terrorist massacres had been neonazi then we'd have exactly the reverse situation.

      Who'd give a fuck if a someone called a 'muslim' seemed to be trying to imitate these powerful and very successful groups of neonazi terrorists??? Have these so called muslims managed a terrorist attack? No? Oh well. Lone muslims with no wider neonazi conspiracy from Souther America? Not much of a story is it!...

      Yet the hysterical lefties love to scream raaaacist --- even when the two stories are both whites! FFS. Such a basic and fundamentally flawed level of discussion.

      A childish and pathetic dig at the 'conspiracy' of the evil right wing press.
    • munir
      Chairwoman – “What the majority of Zionists want, I’m not saying all, because we all have our lunatics, is a safe Jewish state within the pre-1967 borders, living in harmony with its Muslim neighbours.”


      Would that that were true, chairwoman. but it clearly isnt- its a lie- these polls were taken before the election of the Nazi Avigdor Lieberman

      I mean look at the first one- they dont want to have peace with Arab countries!!!

      http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Soc...

      Do you support or oppose the Saudi initiative which calls for Arab recognition and normalization of relations with Israel after it ends its occupation of Arab territories occupied in 1967 and after the establishment of a Palestinian state? (Harry Truman Research Institute/PCPSR, August 25- September 1, 2008)

      Support 38%
      Oppose 59%



      Are you in favor or not in favor of Jerusalem's status being dicussed in the framework of negotiations for peace with the Palestinians? (Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies, April 2008)

      In favor, possible in favor 33%
      Not in favor 62%

      Are you willing to see the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem handed over to Palestinian sovereignty? (The Tami Steinmetz Center for Peace Research, Peace Index - April 2008)

      Yes 40%
      No 55%


      Do you see the West Bank as “liberated territory” or “occupied territory”? (The Tami Steinmetz Center for Peace Research, Peace Index - March 2008)

      “Liberated territory ” 55%
      “Occupied territory ” 32%


      Within the framework of negotiations with the Palestinians should the matter of Jerusalem be discussed now or should the matter of Jerusalem be postponed to then end of negotiations? (Maagar Mohot Survey Institute for Israel Radio's "It's All Talk," February 20, 2008)

      Now 22%
      Postpone 26%
      Don't negotiate at all and other replies 52%



      Do you support a compromise on the matter of Jerusalem within the framework of a peace agreement with the Palestinians? (Maagar Mohot Survey Institute for Israel Radio's "It's All Talk," February 20, 2008)

      Support 26%
      Oppose 58%
      Other replies 16%

      Do you support or oppose an Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as a condition of peace with the Palestinians? (B'nai Brith, January 10, 2008)

      Support 26%
      Oppose 66%

      Do you support a divided Jerusalem that serves as both an Israeli and Palestinian capital in the terms of a peace agreement or must Jerusalem remain united under Israeli rule? (B'nai Brith, January 10, 2008)

      Support dividing Jerusalem 29%
      Support for united Jerusalem under Israeli rule 68%

      There are those who say that in order to achieve Peace with the Palestinians, Israel must return to its 1967 borders. This would entail withdrawing from Judea and Samaria as well as East Jerusalem, including removal of any Israeli presence. Do you support or oppose Israel withdrawing to 1967 borders in order to achieve Peace with the Palestinians? (Keevoon, January 7, 2008)

      Oppose withdrawal to 1967 borders 66%
      Support withdrawal to 1967 borders 26%


      Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. The Palestinian Authority has demanded that the capital of any future Palestinian State be East Jerusalem. Do you think that Jerusalem should remain the united capital of Israel or that it should be divided and be both the capital of Israel and a future Palestinian State?(Keevoon, January 7, 2008)

      Jerusalem should remain the unified capital of Israel
      68%
      Jerusalem should be divided and become the capital of Israel and a future Palestinian state
      29%




      ----------------
      If it were true why would zionists spend their time demonising Muslims here and in the states (you know the people you have to live with to ever have peace?)

      They want surrender not peace. The irony is that a unfair peace deal not based on pre-1967 borders (which is only 22% of Palestine remmeber) just makes conflict more likely
    • munir
      marvin
      "Of cause none of you was outraged at the obsession of a white youth murdering a black youth to the virtual entire exclusion of all other racial murders for years after the Stephen Lawrence murder."

      perhaps because the killers of Stephen Lawrence got off. Becuase Lawrence was black and police hid evidence

      How many non-white racist murderers of whites have got off?
    • Imran Khan
      Marvin - "I personally have not seen graffitti, but that doesn’t mean that their hasn’t been any."

      Ah how you defend those "loveable" rogues of the right against those nasty lefties.

      Of course those lovable rogues who went to war based on lies and who get hysterical at anyone quizzing their shocking double standards.

      Would you not be more at home at HP?
    • munir
      Ah yes CeltLord proving one again how integral Muslim hatred is to some aspects of the Sikh religion

      Muslims are concerned about Palestine because it is a holy place integral to our religion. Why are you? Because Muslim-bashing is an integral part of yours

      How is the fruitful co-operating with the BNP some members of the Sikh community are involved in going?

      " Two artificial states are carved out of India to satisfy muslim demands, population exchanges take place at a massive cost in human lives."

      Yeah true- the Paksitanis fully supported the creation of Bangladesh

      "Sikhs sacrifice possession of their founders birth place and a number of the first Gurudwaras, rather than live again under muslim rule. Wonder how muslims would take it if Christians ruled in Mecca?…"

      Ah yes Mecca - that centre of holiness in the Christian religion

      I dont get you Muslim haters- if India was undivided the Muslim population would be 450 million not 150 million (that is a 1/3 not 12%) would that make you happier?
    • Imran Khan
      Leon - "What blog or media outlet isn’t selective? What blog or media outlet doesn’t have a bias? What blog or media outlet doesn’t have a political agenda?"

      What are the likes of me??

      Its the degree of bias which is the crucial point. Its the degree of selectivity which is the crucial point.

      Where it goes to such a degree that an entire community feels stigamtized then that can't be right can it?

      Those that are on the receiving end will know what its like to have to live in constant defence because of the tirades of blogs and the media. What does the approach achieve?

      If DaveT had to live with the fall out of what his blog does then he wouldn't do it. But he doesn't and hence we get the hystericals at HP.
    • Marvin - you're missing the point. I expect the coverage to be biased. That's how the British media works.

      What annoys is when chumps think they're all clever by proving the bias doesn't exist.
    • munir
      Political correctness gone mad ?

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/81615...

      Sikh victims of crime in London are to be given the option of asking for a police officer of their own faith to work on their case.


      Some moderate Sikhs oppose it (the example they give for opposing it is completely unexpected)


      "Other Sikhs in London, like Sandeep Singh and Sharan Kaur, agreed.

      However, arguing against such policing divisions, they said they are Sikh but also passionately British.
      "It doesn't matter what religion, what creed, colour you are, you need to be aware of issues that people deal with," Sharan Kaur said.

      "Because then you go into saying 'Muslim officers for Muslim crimes'



      lol
    • munir
      CeltLords post is genocidal and should be deleted
    • Cjcjc
      I'm not sure a blog post can be "genocidal" but it is amazing.

      It's as if he didn't draw breath while writing it.
    • Edna Welthorpe
      Munir - 63 - mentions Sikhs. Sikhs are usually quite sane; they're over their Khalistan period and normally decent citizens.

      http://www.amren.com/ar/2007/02/index.html

      Young Sikhs in Canada are able to take their ritual knives to school and don't seem to have sliced anyone up so far.
    • munir
      cjcjc
      "I’m not sure a blog post can be “genocidal” but it is amazing.

      It’s as if he didn’t draw breath while writing it."

      I believe they don't teach punctuation in his "special" school.
    • munir
      Incidentally re CeltLord's quote from Ataturk in which he referred to the Prophet (pbuh) as a bedouin.I have seen this mentioned a number of times and while there is nothing wrong with being a bedouin in the Prophet(pbuh)'s case it isnt true

      The Prophet (pbuh) was born in Mecca which was a city and major trade centre. After he recieved his mission and was persecuted he moved to Yathrib which was renamed Medina. Medina of course means "city" in Arabic

      From day one Islam was always a urban faith as evidenced by the numerous cities created under Muslim rule. The religious, political and social centres of Muslims through history were all cities

      Indeed in Arabic the word for "civilized" is Madani (meaning of the city). The word for uncivilized is Badawi (meaning Beduoin)
    • Leon
      If DaveT had to live with the fall out of what his blog does then he wouldn’t do it.


      What, he should get a smack in the mouth every time he says something we don't like, is that it?

      You know the guy aint the fucking devil (he's actually very nice in person)?? I must say I'm way past bored of Sunny's insistence at continuing this futile blog 'war' with HP. Seriously, I really can't see any value in it at all...
    • munir
      Leon

      "What, he should get a smack in the mouth every time he says something we don’t like, is that it?

      You know the guy aint the fucking devil (he’s actually very nice in person)?"


      Some beg to disagree
      Its pretty incriminating stuff

      http://neilclark66.blogspot.com/2007/10/outing-...

      http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/10/...

      http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2007/12/...
    • Look - I don't really care whether people get bored of my writings or not, or want to elevate this into a 'blog war'.

      I'm not having a blog war with anyone. I point out what I think needs to be pointed out on occasion when I feel like it. Please don't read too much into it.

      Lastly, the more people tell me I should or should not write something, the more liable I am to ignore them. That especially for billy-boy up top.
    • Edna Welthorpe
      Has CeltLord's stuff vanished into the Fourth Dimension?

      If so, this was very cruel to those of us who enjoy occasional exposure to crank writing.

      True, it didn't mention vivisection, fluoridation of water or beven the giant green lizards who [which?] live in caverns under Denver International Airpoty [and this is, of course, why the airport has such weird Masonic murals] but it was excellent crank stuff.
    • Yakoub
      I'm not going to sit here and read the 70-odd comments, so sorry if I'm repeating what someone has already said. Simple question. Does the British print media portray Muslims in a substantially negative and prejudicial way? Answer yes - and how do I know? A very substantial piece of research analysing a raft of papers over a period of time was carried by Elizabeth Poole, Reporting Islam: Media Representations of British Muslims (I B Tauris, 2002). See also Poole, E. and Richardson, E. [Eds] (2006) Muslims in the Media (London: I B Tauris). I know media/blog pundits prefer to spend their lives Googling their way into knowledge these days, but perhaps if they could ocassionally take a day or two to absorb something written by a professional researcher who has spent several years of their life on a topic, instead of thinking they know it all coz they can toss off a pretty sentence, there might be a loss less bullshit floating round the web, eh? Or at least a bit more intelligent discussion. I'm not holding my breath. Wasalaam...
    • douglas clark
      I'd have thought that it was completely obvious that Muslim 'terrorists' in the UK are not allowed a defence of temporary insanity, and some shouldn't be, obviously.

      I used the inverted commas, because I was reminded of the chap at Nottingham University, I think, who downloaded something from the CIA's web site and was consequently hounded through the Courts by HMG. Not that he was insane right enough, he just did a friend a favour. And, despite winning his case was subsequently hunted for breaching immigration laws. I wonder how that all worked out?

      Whereas, almost any white terrorist, since the end of the IRA at least, seems to be treated much more sympathetically.

      I don't really understand why the Glasgow guy, ex-BNP I believe - that was threatening to kill a Muslim a week, and blow up a Mosque, seems to be treated with kid gloves, yet the full force of the law comes down on some daft wee lassie who writes quite terrible poetry. Perhaps there is a substantive difference, but it is really not obvious to me.

      It is pretty clear to me that they are both in need of psychiatric help. Apparently, one gets it, the other doesn't.

      Clearly, there will be differences in these two cases, but there are a quite large number of cases where the outcomes have been very, very different. See Pickled Politics passim. And I can't really see it as much other than the outcome of a witchhunt against part of our society and, almost, an apologia for the reaction of the worst elements of white society. Perhaps it is a reaction to the BNP, but if it is, it is a morally wrong reaction, devoid of any humanity whatsoever.

      It lies also, I think, in the institutional need to 'send a message'.

      But we are only, I think, sending it in the one direction.

      I really do think that that is very shortsighted and wrong.

      The modern purpose of a social democracy, it seems to me, is to defend all of us against people that really are a danger and help those that are screwed in the head. But HMG doesn't seem to agree with me.

      We should have learned through Northern Ireland that siding with one group against another in our application of the rule of law is a failed idea. Still the advisers to HMG clearly read different interpretations into NI than I do...
    • douglas clark
      Yakoub,

      Interesting points you make there, but as someone that is interested in the issue, but neither an academic nor someone with an unlimited budget, could you provide some links?

      I was going to mention Strathclyde Universities' views on this, which supported your case, I believe. But it seems to be firewalled against the ignorant hordes. Now why might one think we are ignorant? Bloody rabble at the gate!

      Just joking, it might just be my crap ability at googling.
    • Edna Welthorpe
      Munir ought to stand in the corner - or sit on the naughty step - until he has learned how to spell Makkah and Madinah correctly.
    • Jai
      Sunny,

      proving one again how integral Muslim hatred is to some aspects of the Sikh religion

      Muslims are concerned about Palestine because it is a holy place integral to our religion. Why are you? Because Muslim-bashing is an integral part of yours


      Perhaps it would be best if you responded to the statements above about Sikhism by Munir in #59, since he completely ignores what anyone else tells him about the faith and its history and appears to be basing his ideas on hearsay and random websites.

      As you probably know, there are already some major question marks about exactly where Munir is getting his information (or lack of it) from, in relation to major aspects of South Asian history and the culture & religious beliefs/practices of non-Muslim South Asians. Not to mention his ideas about the current and historical interpretation of Islam in South Asia, especially in the north and most of all in relation to Sufism (although that's a separate issue). In fact, it raises further questions about exactly what Munir's ethnic & ancestral background really is, given his ongoing silence in response to polite questions requesting clarification about the matter.

      Since you're pretty much the only person on this entire website that Munir treats with any respect & consideration, you're best placed to deal with Munir's "confusion" about Sikhism.
    • billericaydicky
      This is starting to be handbags at close range!

      Undaunted, I must admit I hadn't heard the one about Oona King sending half her salary to the IDF but the Respect campaign certainly made a great deal out of her being a Jew.

      Imran Khan,

      You,re so thick I don't know where to start taking you apart. Leaving aside the obligatory statements about ecumenicalism and a couple of meeting between the high ups of the various every year there is no interaction in a positive way between Islam and any of the other faiths in Tower Hamlets.

      It is still possible to see the remains of the "kill the Jews" grafitti on the north wall of the sunken football pitch in Heneage St off Brick Lane if anyone cares to look.

      Neturai Karta is a tiny Jewish sect which denies the right of the state of Israel to exist and has entered into dialoguewith anti semites like the leader of the Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan. They have also taken part in demonstrations in Hackney with the SWP and the Kurdish terrorist PKK against the state of Israel.

      There has been a constant campaign of intimidation of the Fiedgate St Syagogue to the rear of the East London Mosque and Islamic centre. The East London Advertiser ran a story about how hundreds of thousands of pounds were to be spent on a marble inlay on the pavement outside the front door with an Arabic theme. The money was approved by the IFE controled Labour Party but the sceme was scrapped after the Advertiser exposed it.

      If anyone has anything concrete to say about my long post above I will be only too willing to respond.
    • munir
      Yaqoub
      "A very substantial piece of research analysing a raft of papers over a period of time was carried by Elizabeth Poole, Reporting Islam: Media Representations of British Muslims (I B Tauris, 2002)"

      An excellent book which deserves far wider notice. One fascinating fact Ms Poole mentions is that when discussing issues around Muslim women white non-Muslim men are far more likely to be interviewed by the media than Muslim women themselves! And then the media complains about the silencing of Muslim women
    • Leon
      Look – I don’t really care whether people get bored of my writings or not, or want to elevate this into a ‘blog war’.

      I’m not having a blog war with anyone. I point out what I think needs to be pointed out on occasion when I feel like it. Please don’t read too much into it.


      Sorry mate but that's horseshit, by your very own words you've indicated clearly you had an agenda of constantly attacking HP.

      This is a blog war because you've made it that way, it'd be easy to believe what you wrote above had this been a rare or irregular type of posting but it isn't.
    • Imran Khan
      Leon - "What, he should get a smack in the mouth every time he says something we don’t like, is that it?

      You know the guy aint the fucking devil (he’s actually very nice in person)?? I must say I’m way past bored of Sunny’s insistence at continuing this futile blog ‘war’ with HP. Seriously, I really can’t see any value in it at all…"

      What are the likes of me? It can't be a bleedin difficult question to answer can it.

      Its amazing how you are so quick to defend DaveT and get hysterical. Did I say he should be smacked in the mouth? No I didn't so why get HPterical when replying to quite a simple point which was made?

      The point Sunny made is hugely valid to Muslims and the reason you don't care and stick up for DaveT is because it doesn't affect you.

      The HP and Media hysterics at Muslims stories means that peoples daily lives are affected, people are liable to verbal and physical assaults. all of which is downplayed by HP and the media.

      Conversely HP, DaveT and parts of the media emphasise even little bits of antisemitism and choose not to down play it. So why the double standard?

      Equally extremism amongst the right is downplayed.

      That is the point you can't see and frankly it leads to community tensions which can't be a good thing.

      If DaveT is such a nice guy to you then why don't you become an editor on his blog and not here? The reason you don't is because you don't like it over there but you don't want people to point out how bad it which is crazy.

      Bias is one thing but the level of hysterics is another and that is what most people object to but because he is your friend then you don't like it.

      HP and its editors need to be exposed as do all similar media and blogs and just because its by your mate that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

      You recently said that you wouldn't take advice from the likes of me without ever being clear what the likes of me are and yet I have always been polite to you. Then you defend DaveT and his blog who is less than polite to Muslims and gets hysterical at many of us. Strange standards you have.

      If the shoe was on the other foot and a blog treated Jews in such a manner then you'd be screaming antisemitism.

      Poor analysis on influential blogs has severe repercussions and it must be exposed. DaveT is hugely influential and anything that can be done to bring checks and balances to his blog is to be applauded especially as we now have the main Jewish Community Papers editor quoting him.
    • Katy Newton
      Leon's one of the most level-headed, fair-minded and loyal people I know. He's also never been a fan of Harry's Place. So if he's getting fed up with this constant HP-bashing you can bet it's gone too far, frankly.
    • Imran Khan
      Dicky - "Neturai Karta is a tiny Jewish sect which denies the right of the state of Israel to exist and has entered into dialoguewith anti semites like the leader of the Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan. They have also taken part in demonstrations in Hackney with the SWP and the Kurdish terrorist PKK against the state of Israel."

      If you could read then you'd realise I wasn't the one who brought them up so try and keep up with who is saying what.

      "There has been a constant campaign of intimidation of the Fiedgate St Syagogue to the rear of the East London Mosque and Islamic centre. The East London Advertiser ran a story about how hundreds of thousands of pounds were to be spent on a marble inlay on the pavement outside the front door with an Arabic theme. The money was approved by the IFE controled Labour Party but the sceme was scrapped after the Advertiser exposed it."

      Complete bollocks and this was replied to by the mosque. Its just people like you and the paper causing hysterics.

      The paper refused to produce their so called evidence after the mosque asked to see the proof for the allegations. The mosque put out a rebuttal and the paper was unable to prove what it had said. The story died a death because there was no evidence.

      Despite your bile the Synagogue has in the press thanked the mosque for its cooperation in serving religious events whilst the mosque was being expanded at a massive cost to the mosque to halt building work.

      I've met people from the Synagogue and they don't have any issues with the mosque and all mosques plans have never included taking over the synagogue so stop peddling falsehoods.

      The graffiti is reprehensible but unless you can show its part of an official campaign then its likely to the work of some nutjob rather than an carefully orchestrated campaign.

      I may be thick as you say but even I can tell the difference which you can't.

      Such things tend to get worse depending on what is going on in the Middle East. Which means more grassroots work to stop such behavior but it takes two to tango.
    • Rumbold
      Imran Khan:

      "Equally extremism amongst the right is downplayed."


      Have you seen how much stuff HP post on the BNP/other far-right groups? I would say that they are one of the best blogs for that sort of thing. Other than us, I cannot think of one 'major' blog that posts as much on those topics as they do.
    • Imran Khan
      Rumbold - In terms of media coverage and blogs it is overall small. HP and PP may do that but overall its still small in number.
    • munir
      Billeracy Dicky
      “Neturai Karta is a tiny Jewish sect which denies the right of the state of Israel to exist and has entered into dialoguewith anti semites like the leader of the Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan. They have also taken part in demonstrations in Hackney with the SWP and the Kurdish terrorist PKK against the state of Israel.”

      You mean they are the Jewish equivalent of the Quilliam Foundation who collaborate with Muslim haters like Douglas Murray?
    • Imran Khan
      Dicky - As you have such a hard time separating hysterics from facts here is the statement by East London Mosque regarding the hyserics of the East London Advertiser:

      http://www.eastlondonmosque.org.uk/uploadedImag...

      "We consulted the Fieldgate Street Great Synagogue in 2006 at the earliest stage of developing plans for expanding our facilities, when they expressed no concerns at all. Nor were any concerns raised when the plans were submitted to (and subsequently approved by) Tower Hamlets Planning Department. We enjoy regular contact and warm relations with our neighbour, and at no time have they ever expressed any reservations or concern to us about our plans; indeed, they have been supportive. Tower Hamlets is noted for its admirable interfaith relationships, and the Synagogue and Mosque in particular have excellent relations, which we hope to continue for many years to come."
      ...
      "The East London Advertiser makes a further unsubstantiated claim: ‘…elders have long earmarked the synagogue as a jigsaw piece in their expansion plans.’ The acquisition of the Synagogue does not form part of our current or future plans, all of which show the Synagogue as it is now.
      We value the good relations that have been built up over many years between the Synagogue and Mosque. We consider the East London Advertiser’s article to be misleading and inflammatory, and it may cause tensions between Jewish and Muslim communities. We call on them to take a more responsible and accurate approach to their reporting."

      Now show me an official statement and not your made up fiction from the Synagogue which refutes this.

      Either put up or shut up.

      I have met people from the Synagogue in question and they do indeed enjoy good relations with the mosque.

      Its this type of media hysteria that goes unchecked and people take as fact to inflame community tensions that the likes of HP thrive off. Its feckin disgraceful.

      The paper was unable to prove any of its claims and didn't respond to the statement from the mosque.
    • munir
      Edna Welthorpe
      Munir ought to stand in the corner – or sit on the naughty step – until he has learned how to spell Makkah and Madinah correctly.


      Since they are not English words there is no standardized English spelling of them
    • munir
      Imran Dicky keeps briniging up the issue and quoting the East London Advertiser as his "evidence" - no evidence from the synangogue itself- forgetting that it is a right wing rag from the Daily Mail stable and the writer of these anti-Muslim pieces Ted Jeory has recently taken up a post at the mother of all Muslim hating newspapers the Daily Express

      Dicky is famous or should we say notorious for his unsubstantiated claims
    • Imran Khan
      Dicky - Also interesting is the fact that the synagogue is struggling due to lack of membership however the Jewish Communities plans despite your hysterics are to turn the Synagogue into a museum.

      If they were being bullied as you claim then I'm sure it would have been in the media by now.

      Also the Synagogue could have objected to the mosques plans but they supported them which is quite a contrast to your infantile hysterics.

      Go to site where such comment is welcome and don't stir your shit here.
    • Imran Khan
      Munir - Fact is that TrickyDicky, DaveT and their like are the reason we need to reach across the Jewish Community to dispel the hysterics and myth making of these people and the media.

      It is the reason we need to be brave enough to confront antisemitism within our community and outside so we can show the Jewish people that we can live in peace.

      Dicky is reliant on an unsubstantiated fictional piece which is part of an ongoing campaign against the mosque but is a campaign which the Synagogue hasn't supported. The Synagogue despite Dicky's hysteria has supported the mosque.

      Dicky proves that Sunny is right in his piece above and its sad that people dismiss the editorial above as it proves the hysterics in the media and how people like Dicky not only believe them but put them forward as the truth even when they are clearly unsubstantiated and dare I say untrue.
    • munir
      Munir

      proving one again how integral Muslim hatred is to some aspects of the Sikh religion

      Muslims are concerned about Palestine because it is a holy place integral to our religion. Why are you? Because Muslim-bashing is an integral part of yours


      Jai

      Sunny ..

      Perhaps it would be best if you responded to the statements above about Sikhism by Munir in #59, since he completely ignores what anyone else tells him about the faith and its history and appears to be basing his ideas on hearsay and random websites.


      Jai you have a remarkable ability to zone in on my comments and totally ignore the comments I am responding to - its actually quite a complement but it means you missed the fact I was replying to CeltLord a genocidal Sikh whose Sikhism clearly did influence his hatred of Muslim. Given he advocated genocide of Muslims my reply was appropriately forceful

      Id actually like to apologise to you and Sunny for the things I said about the Sikh Gurus in responce to Celt lord's abuse of the Prophet (pbuh). I actually found it very troubling to write such things about others sacred personages. Though I dont for a minute believe they were Prophets or what they said was right, I believe the Sikh Gurus were good,decent, noble and well meaning men (no doubt helped by their Muslim Sufi pedagogy).

      But I think you are being deliberetaely dishonest by saying there isnt deep hatred of Muslims amongst many Sikhs (cf CeltLord) or that in its constant replaying during religious festivals of the wrongs done by certain Muslims to its Gurus, Sikhism may be fanning this hatred even if it doesnt intend to. These are intergral aspects to the religion.

      Sunny is also a non-religious Sikh so maybe not the best port of call.



      In fact, it raises further questions about exactly what Munir’s ethnic & ancestral background really is, given his ongoing silence in response to polite questions requesting clarification about the matter.


      What are you the fvcking bhenchod BNP, testing people for racial purity ? What do my origins have to do with anything? If you want to know my ancestry its same as you- "Bani Adam".
    • Imran Khan
      Oh and a perfect example of the hysteria Sunny is referring to:

      MUSLIMS COULD GET OWN POLICE
      http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/115757/Musl...

      The actual story is that Sikhs can request a Sikh office and is barely mentioned.

      But the right wing media is reporting it as a Muslim story.

      So now DaveT here is your chance to condemn this type of reporting but will you - will you heck!!

      No doubt on HP if Muslim have the scheme extended to them the hysterics will start but will the media be criticised hell no.
    • billaricaydickey
      Imran,

      Always engage brain before opening mouth! I gave that advice to Lee Jasper years ago and he couldn't take it.

      You now seem to have agreed with everything I have said except the situation with regard to the Synagogue. The information about the planned mosaic was supplied to the Advertiser by me after I obtained leaked documents from Tower Hamlets council. The paper ran a story and the plan was pulled. so the story ended, anything you don't understand about that?

      The Mosque claims to have cordial relations with the Synagogue, well they would wouldn't they? The only problem with the whole thing is that while an whole host of groups from the MCB to the nuttier extremes claim to be friendly to other groups sooner or later up pops a quote about killing kaffirs.

      Glad to see you agree with all my other stuff though.
    • Imran Khan
      Munir - "Id actually like to apologise to you and Sunny for the things I said about the Sikh Gurus in responce to Celt lord’s abuse of the Prophet (pbuh). I actually found it very troubling to write such things about others sacred personages."

      Then don't write them. You do realise this is prohibited by Allah in the Qur'an. I can dig out the exact verse but roughly it says that others should not be mocked for their beliefs because they may mock your belief and Allah in turn.

      Simply put don't respond to Celtlord who clearly is trying to whip up the response.
    • munir
      Imran Khan
      "Munir – Fact is that TrickyDicky, DaveT and their like are the reason we need to reach across the Jewish Community to dispel the hysterics and myth making of these people and the media.

      It is the reason we need to be brave enough to confront antisemitism within our community and outside so we can show the Jewish people that we can live in peace."

      Imran before zionism and the state of Israel Muslims and Jews did live in peace no matter how much zionists try and distort established historical record

      The first zionist colonialist from Europe were actually appalled at how well the Palestine Jews got on with their Arab neighbours.

      This is Rabbi David Weiss in a truly beautiful video
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWvMJuHJ1fI

      describing how close Muslims and Jews were

      As one of the commentators says quoting the Quran

      "Of the people of Moses there is a nation who guide by the truth, and by it act with justice." [7:159]


      Imran people like Dicky hate Netreei Karta because they believe in co existance between Jews and Muslims not endless wars shedding Arab/Muslim blood for Eretz Israel
    • Imran Khan
      Dicky - Show me a statement from the Synagogue to back you up or shut up.

      So now we are expected to believe that you are the source of a leak to a paper owned by a right wing press baron with an axe to grind against Muslims.

      Prove it. Come out as the leak and stand by your convictions.

      Without denigrating into counter accusations Jewish Organisation play host to extremists without right wing rags complaining so that means both sides have their house to put in order.
    • munir
      Imran Khan
      "Then don’t write them. You do realise this is prohibited by Allah in the Qur’an. I can dig out the exact verse but roughly it says that others should not be mocked for their beliefs because they may mock your belief and Allah in turn."

      Yes I know and I apologise - but recall he started by insulting the Prophet (pbuh) in the foulest way

      6:107

      ١٠٧) وَلَا تَسُبُّواْ ٱلَّذِينَ يَدۡعُونَ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ فَيَسُبُّواْ ٱللَّهَ عَدۡوَۢا بِغَيۡرِ عِلۡمٍ۬‌ۗ كَذَٲلِكَ زَيَّنَّا لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ عَمَلَهُمۡ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّہِم مَّرۡجِعُهُمۡ فَيُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُواْ يَعۡمَلُونَ


      (107) Revile not those unto whom they (pagans) pray beside God lest they wrongfully revile God through ignorance. Thus unto every nation have We made their deed seem fair. Then unto their Lord is their return, and He will tell them what they used to do.
    • Jai
      Imran,

      Then don’t write them. You do realise this is prohibited by Allah in the Qur’an. I can dig out the exact verse but roughly it says that others should not be mocked for their beliefs because they may mock your belief and Allah in turn.

      Simply put don’t respond to Celtlord who clearly is trying to whip up the response.


      Absolutely correct. And in fact, it's not even a matter of refraining from this type of behaviour due to it being prohibited by the Quran -- it's a matter of basic common sense and fundamental human decency. Munir should instinctively know that it is unacceptable and wrong to behave this way.

      But at least he has enough of a sense of integrity to apologise, which is good. I happily accept Munir's apology.

      Sunny is also a non-religious Sikh so maybe not the best port of call.


      Sunny may or may not necessarily be strictly-practicing when it comes to some aspects of the religion but he is still very well versed in the history and principles of the faith. Coupled with the fact that he has immediate family members who are very committed indeed when it comes to following the religion "in full", Sunny is an excellent person to provide suitable responses or clarification in relation to Sikhism.
    • munir
      billeracydicky

      Undaunted, I must admit I hadn’t heard the one about Oona King sending half her salary to the IDF but the Respect campaign certainly made a great deal out of her being a Jew.


      Oona King lost her seat because she support the illegal criminal war on Iraq. Using the "because she was Jewish" line of the right is deeply dishonest not least because how then could she, a Jewish woman, have won the seat, with the largest Muslim population, the previous election ?

      Indeed it is a testament to Muslim voters lack of prejudice that they would elect a Jewish MP - there are other examples such as Harry Cohen long term MP for Leyton.

      Wonder how many Muslim's would get elected in Golders Green?

      Bear in mind that Jewish organisations in the US sent emails telling Jewish voters Obama was a Muslim (and ipso facto not to be voted for !)
    • munir
      Jai
      Absolutely correct. And in fact, it’s not even a matter of refraining from this type of behaviour due to it being prohibited by the Quran — it’s a matter of basic common sense and fundamental human decency. Munir should instinctively know that it is unacceptable and wrong to behave this way.


      Sadly your brother in Sikhi CeltLord didnt when he abused the Prophet (pbuh)


      But at least he has enough of a sense of integrity to apologise, which is good. I happily accept Munir’s apology.


      And I would like to thank you for your forceful criticism of CeltLord's genocidal comments about Muslims and insult of our sacred personages.
    • Jai
      You could have simply ignored CeltLord's comments, Munir -- just as Imran suggested and just as I and most other people on PP usually do. It's not necessary to respond to every single troll (BNP, Islamophobic, or whatever) who turns up on this blog deliberately looking to pick a fight with a suitable target, especially as such comments are frequently deleted by PP's editors anyway. The fact that most people have been ignoring CeltLord, Dashenka (or whatever her username was), etc etc isn't a coincidence.
    • munir

      Sunny may or may not necessarily be strictly-practicing when it comes to some aspects of the religion but he is still very well versed in the history and principles of the faith. Coupled with the fact that he has immediate family members who are very committed indeed when it comes to following the religion “in full”, Sunny is an excellent person to provide suitable responses or clarification in relation to Sikhism.


      Well Sunny doesnt talk about his Sikhism much - I do recall him mentioning going to a Gurdwara and handing out anti-war leaflets before the Iraq war only to be told by the people there that they didnt care about Muslims being killed in Iraq

      Oh dear Jai oh dear
      your community has a big problem

      I suspect you picked Sunny because he is a educated decent liberal guy who projects the image of Sikhism you would like to convey- rather than the practising turbanned gurdwara-going uncle breathing fire against "sullahs"
    • The Mosque claims to have cordial relations with the Synagogue, well they would wouldn’t they?

      In other words you don't have any evidence to back up what you're saying bill - what a surprise.

      munir - there is as much anti-muslim bias among sikh as here is vice versa. In other words, it's the people than the theology.

      You don't have a theological leg to stand on otherwise. Sikhism is far more accepting of other religions than Islam is of other religions.
    • Jai
      rather than the practising turbanned gurdwara-going uncle breathing fire against “sullahs”


      As Sunny and numerous other regulars know, not a single one of those statements above applies to me.

      Nice try though, Munir. You are so far off the mark on all counts that it's extremely entertaining seeing what a creative imagination you have.
    • bananabrain
      munir @ #95.

      you are either so desperate for wishful thinking you are prepared to accept the fantasies peddled by neturei karta (a sect of max 10,000 people to the 14m jews worldwide) at face value: "we're the real jews!" or you are, yourself, a liar. at very least you misrepresent jewish-muslim coexistence as a sort of mythical golden age when, in fact, jews were at best held in contempt and at worst subjected to the provisions of the pact of umar.

      you are a disgrace to the name of muslim.

      b'shalom

      bananabrain
    • Edna Welthorpe
      In #77 billericaydickey refers to barely legible graffiti.

      Paint lasts a long time. Well into the 1960s, barely visible under the soot and grime, there was the urgent demand ARMS FOR SPAIN on a wall close to one of the Manchester railway stations.
    • munir
      banana brain

      "you are, yourself, a liar. at very least you misrepresent jewish-muslim coexistence as a sort of mythical golden age when, in fact, jews were at best held in contempt and at worst subjected to the provisions of the pact of umar.

      you are a disgrace to the name of muslim."

      hahaha - right so any Muslim who doesnt agree that Jews were persecuted blah blah the usual zionist bull by Muslims is "a disgrace to the name of muslim"

      The Golden Age of Spanish Jewry was in Muslim Spain- when Jews were expelled from Christian lands they sought sanctuary in Muslim lands- that is fact even a zionist like you cannot deny
    • cjcjc
      Rather different from where they would seek sanctuary today...still, always better to live in the past I find
    • bananabrain
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Humiliation...
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_omar
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najis
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad#Religion
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_Granada_massacre
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiraz_blood_libel
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_Thrace_Pogroms
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

      none of these things are anything to do with zionism.

      either you don't know about this stuff, or you do - and you're a liar.

      b'shalom

      bananabrain
    • bananabrain
      i should say that the only thing worse than this was living under mediaeval christian rule!

      b'shalom

      bananabrain
    • munir
      Sunny
      "munir – there is as much anti-muslim bias among sikh as here is vice versa.


      hardly since the vast majority of Muslims dont even know what a Sikh is.

      I dont recall Muslims making a computer game based around killing Sikhs

      and as our friend CeltLord said Sikh parents have a special abhorrence to their daughters having Muslim boyfriends. Why would this be?
      (and BTW Id like to commend them and encourage all non-Muslims to strongly oppose your children having Muslim boyfriends or girlfriends and indeed husbands or wives:)


      and then there is the BNP- what on earth would motivate (a minority of) brown sikhs to team up with such a racist organisation? Ah well it must be the uneducated ones

      "Ammo Singh, 30, an accountant from west London, said he represented about 100 young Sikhs and Hindus who had collaborated in the making and distribution of the BNP recording. He said this was 'just the first stage' of co-operation with the BNP. 'We are not joining the BNP, we are just working with them. We have a very friendly relationship,' he said.

      Rajinder Singh, a part-time teacher from Wellingborough, said he intended to set up an Asian Friends of the BNP group to act as a supporting body and conduit for funds for people sympathetic to the party's anti-Islamic stance. He was born in Lahore, Pakistan, but fled communal tensions and came to Britain in 1967. He is openly anti-Muslim, but believes the BNP can be persuaded to accept Sikhs as British."

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/dec/23/race.p...


      In other words, it’s the people than the theology.


      Simply untrue since large parts of Sikhism are commemorating the evils done to Sikh Gurus by Muslims -repeated year after year in Gurdwaras- and Sikh history is largely about fighting against Muslims

      Maghi January 13 Maghi commemorates the martyrdom of the "Forty Immortals," forty followers of Guru Gobind Singh who had previously deserted him, fought bravely against overwhelming Mughal army forces and were martyred in Muktsar. Guru Gobind Singh blessed them as having achieved mukti (liberation) and cremated them at Muktsar. Muktsar where an annual fair is held.

      Martydom of Guru Arjan Dev Sahib June 16 Guru Arjan Dev Sahib was martyred on this day, according to the Nanakshahi calendar.

      Martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib November 24 On this day Guru Tegh Bahadur was martyred when he refused to convert to Islam. On this day Sikhs go to a Gurdwara for a prayer.

      The reverse isnt the case- there arent any Sunni Muslim festivals commemorating historical events/wrongs since these whip up hatred

      You don’t have a theological leg to stand on otherwise. Sikhism is far more accepting of other religions than Islam is of other religions.


      In generality you may have a point - but since there are specific anti-Muslim rulings in Sikhism and it grew in opposition to a Muslim polity its dishonest to say Sikhism's stance towards Islam is the same as its stance towards other faiths.

      I dont like to disagree with you Sunny because I admire you for your integrity and fair mindedness, no doubt some of it derived from your faith, but I think your being exceptionally naive
    • Imran Khan
      Bananabrain - Your historical analysis is somewhat off and simply designed to whip up Munir.

      Most of the preservation of Judaism and its leading thinkers and writers lived in the Muslim world. In recent times there has been a very dodgy rewriting of that history by certain sections of the right to justify their own aims and ideology.

      Of course that isn't to deny there are shameful and disgraceful episodes in Islamic History but it isn't as bad as you are painting.

      I find it sad that is being forgotten so easily.
    • billaricaydickey
      Sunny,
      and that includes Imran and Munir, tell me or show me that anything that I have said is untrue. You sound exactly like Holocaust deniers who demand "proof" of everything.

      Two years ago I was out leafleting against the BNP in Woodford in outer East London and ended up with two guys who turned out to work for the Community Safety people which monitors anti semitic activities. It turns out that they are far more worried about Islamic groups and black ones influenced by the likes of Louis Farrakhan than the white far right.

      The ball is in you court.
    • Imran Khan
      Sunny - "You don’t have a theological leg to stand on otherwise. Sikhism is far more accepting of other religions than Islam is of other religions."

      That is complete nonsense. Islam has a far greater and longer record with many faiths and over a wider area which shows it wasn't isolated.

      At least be objective.

      In recent times Muslim have been intolerant but at one time most Christians and Jews lived and prospered in the Muslim world a point the Daily Telegraph made recently and thats saying something.

      Muslims committed crimes against Sikhs and Sikhs committed crimes against Muslims. That makes the people murderous and doesn't make one more tolerant than the other.

      The murder by both sides is rarely acknowledged by the other and hence you get these silly your religion did this to my people debates.
    • Imran Khan
      Dicky - The CST doesn't agree with you. Suggest you speak to their Spokesman Mr. Gardner who said that the far right is more of a threat.

      Your points are not backed by proof or by your own community organisations.

      There is an issue in the Muslim community of antisemitism and that needs to be confronted but it isn't as bad as or make out. Equally there is a problem with Islamophobia in your community which is going by largely unchecked. Balls in your court to either bring proof because you are lurching from allegation to allegation and not backing up anything you say other than to say trust me I leak things!
    • munir
      Billeracydicky


      Sunny, and that includes Imran and Munir, tell me or show me that anything that I have said is untrue.


      This has already been numerous times with the link to the mosque website you imbecilic lying retard

      You have not produced a single statement from the synagogue claiming what you said is true


      You sound exactly like Holocaust deniers who demand “proof” of everything.


      Yes because asking you to produce a single bloody letter you claim exists is exactly the same as asking for proof of the massacre of millions which can be seen in numerous sites across Europe and has hundreds of thousands of witnesses including the Christian perpetrators who confessed to it.


      Two years ago I was out leafleting against the BNP in Woodford in outer East London and ended up with two guys who turned out to work for the Community Safety people which monitors anti semitic activities. It turns out that they are far more worried about Islamic groups and black ones influenced by the likes of Louis Farrakhan than the white far right.


      Wow thats strong proof - another unsubstantiated comment from Dicky! And this has exactly what to do with East London mosque retard?

      By the way were they leafleting for the BNP? I know their councillor in that area is a nice Jewish lady

      Dicky you live in a strange world where anti-semitism is wrong (it is) but anti-Muslim/ anti-black feeling is good or OK


      The ball is in you court.


      No its back in your padded cell
    • billaricaydickey
      Imran,
      You're quick off the mark, it looks like you have just talked to CST. I'll call them to check and get back. In the meantime get your brain in gera and try dealing with some of the very specific allegataions I have made.
    • munir
      hardly since the vast majority of Muslims dont even know what a Sikh is.

      I dont recall Muslims making a computer game based around killing Sikhs


      I don't recall Sikhs passing around leaflets offering money to convert Muslim girls either - so I wouldn't use the actions of some lame idiots to bolster your case. Makes you look stupid.

      and as our friend CeltLord said Sikh parents have a special abhorrence to their daughters having Muslim boyfriends. Why would this be?

      So you're taking the view of a BNP supporter to make your point. Well done. And do Muslim parents view Sikh boyfriends with fondness?

      Simply untrue since large parts of Sikhism are commemorating the evils done to Sikh Gurus by Muslims -repeated year after year in Gurdwaras- and Sikh history is largely about fighting against Muslims

      It's a fight against Mughals - who attacked Sikhs. In the same way a lot of early Muslim history celebrates fights won over Jews. Does that mean the religion is inherently anti-semitic?

      In generality you may have a point – but since there are specific anti-Muslim rulings in Sikhism and it grew in opposition to a Muslim polity its dishonest to say Sikhism’s stance towards Islam is the same as its stance towards other faiths.

      Point them out to me.

      bill:
      and that includes Imran and Munir, tell me or show me that anything that I have said is untrue. You sound exactly like Holocaust deniers who demand “proof” of everything.

      haha! you sad fuck. First you make claims you can't prove, and then you're calling me a holocaust denier because I'm asking you for proof.
    • Imran Khan
      Actually Bananabrain I am quite annoyed by your statement - Umar bin Khattab took great care of his Jewish subjects. He wrote to all of his governors asking them to ensure that non-Muslims which includes Jews who did not have the means to look after themselves were given money from the Muslim Treasury and didn't have to pay Jiziyah. The Muslim State was to look after them at its own cost.

      Umar brought the Jews back to Jersualem and with his own hands helped to clean Temple Mount.

      On other occasions the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) risked their own lives to return the Jiyziyah when they could not protect Jews and Christians in Syria from the Romans.

      They helped establish the concept of allowing Jews their own courts for judgment etc.

      The travels of various Jewish Rabbis in the medieval period testify by their words to prosperity of the Jews.

      The Muslims helped to link up Jews in Yemen with the rest of Jewry.

      Its grossly unfair to look at only the negative and also to disregard the words of your own people or reinterpret them based on current need. It does your case no favours.
    • Imran Khan
      Dicky - At least I know who the CST are and what they do. You clearly don't as you couldn't even name them.

      I don't need to call them - I have read their comments and respect the work they do.

      I can also name their spokesman and don't rely on your line of two guys you met trust me said this!

      All your hysteria is based on you were told this or that trust me with no proof to back up your position.

      As you have such a hard time locating sources in your community do you want me to look up The Community Security Trust Number for you???
    • Jai
      Sunny,

      Great points in #119 and I'm going to leave this discussion with Munir in your capable hands, but I have to briefly respond to the following remark myself:

      the vast majority of Muslims dont even know what a Sikh is.


      This may or may not be true in relation to the global Muslim population as a whole, but it's completely false in relation to the "vast majority of Muslims" in or from the subcontinent, especially India (most of all the north) and also Pakistan.

      Again, it raises yet more questions about a) whether Munir is actually South Asian himself, b) if not, then exactly who or where is he getting his understanding of South Asian history, culture, and the various peoples involved from (both Muslim and non-Muslim), and c) either way, exactly what kind of Muslims he's been hanging around with, if they're exhibiting such a high level of ignorance about Sikhs & Sikhism compared to most South Asian Muslims.
    • Sofia
      Punjabi muslims have a lot more in common with sikhs in terms of cultural practice...and yet this is completely overlooked...again...and I agree with Jai, in the last post...I don't understand what Munir was trying to say about most muslims not knowing what Sikhs are..for God's sake..it makes muslims out to be as illiterate about anything non muslim as Munir is...
    • bananabrain
      imran,

      i am not denying that there was some good stuff, but to paint it all pink is quite simply wrong. to quite directly from the wikipedia page on the "myth of dhimmitude":

      Bernard Lewis states that there are two well-established myths available in the literature about the position of Jews in the Islamic world.[155] Mark R. Cohen calls them the "Myth of an interfaith utopia" (lachrymose) and "countermyth of the Islamic persecution of Jews" (neo-lachrymose).

      The first myth states that medieval Islam provided a peaceful haven for Jews while Christendom relentlessly persecuted them. "A golden age of equality, of mutual respect and cooperation, especially but not exclusively in Moorish Spain"

      The other myth is the story of "dhimmitude" (a term coined by Bachir Gemayel and introduced into Western discourse by Bat Ye'or), of subservience and persecution and ill treatment.

      Lewis says these are myths and that like many myths, both contain significant elements of truth. According to Cohen they equally distort the past.

      having read the history, i think both lewis and cohen are right. i think you would do well to recognise this. i don't expect munir to, because he is a blinkered, frothing, beardbanger. you are far more sensible, so i hope you get it.

      b'shalom

      bananabrain
    • Soso
      The Golden Age of Spanish Jewry was in Muslim Spain- when Jews were expelled from Christian lands they sought sanctuary in Muslim lands- that is fact even a zionist like you cannot deny

      I suggest you read Maimonides views on the benevolent "tolerance" of Muslim Spain.

      There were a whole series of anti-semitic pogroms committed by Muslims, pogroms that killed 1000s of Jews.

      Islam is no easier on Jews than Christianity.
    • bananabrain
      damn the lack of edit button. damn damn damn.

      b'shalom

      bananabrain
    • Imran Khan
      TrickyDicky - Here is what the CST say:

      "Mark Gardner, of the Community Security Trust, which monitors violence against Jews, said there has been a surge in right-wing incidents.

      He said: 'Ten years after the Nazi nail bombings in London, we are seeing increasing numbers of neo-Nazis being arrested in their attempts to start some kind of so-called race war.

      'It is the Muslim community that appears to be most targeted, but all of society is at risk, and we are in regular discussion with police about the problem.

      'Worse still, the recent electoral successes for the BNP may cause some would-be terrorists to be further emboldened in their actions.'"
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198003...
    • Imran Khan
      Bananabrain - "i am not denying that there was some good stuff, but to paint it all pink is quite simply wrong. to quite directly from the wikipedia page on the “myth of dhimmitude”:"

      With respect Lewis has his own axe to grind is and a revisionist who is part of the call to rewrite the wording of Jews which speak highly of the Muslim world.

      I am not saying don't talk about the bad events but keep it in perspective of the overall good which went on for over 1300 years which isn't a bad run!!

      I accept Munir wound you up but equally I have Dicky winding me up but lets not lose sight of the wider picture.

      Jews and Muslims lived together for a long long time and many Jews who did prosper in the Muslim word barely survived a generation outside the Muslim world in medieval times. Look at the Jews of Salonika and Spain.
    • munir

      munir
      hardly since the vast majority of Muslims dont even know what a Sikh is.
      I dont recall Muslims making a computer game based around killing Sikhs

      sunny
      I don’t recall Sikhs passing around leaflets offering money to convert Muslim girls either – so I wouldn’t use the actions of some lame idiots to bolster your case. Makes you look stupid.


      Good grief Sunny. Are you referring to the story put about by extremist Hindu/Sikh organisations that HT were passing leaflets and offering money to get Sikh girls to convert? Something that was reported in the right wing press followed up by the police who found zero evidence!!!

      Please tell me you are not talking about this

      http://www.sikhlionz.com/Khilafah2.jpg

      A document so stupid and so obviously false that the (presumably Sikh) writer cant spell Muslim properly (Moslem), translates all the Muslim terms that Muslims would know but doesn’t translate Gurdwara a term many Muslims wouldn’t, as well as glaring anachronisms- suggesting taking people on dates and drinking and that this is allowed by the Quran. Its actually a bit touching - the plantitive sadness about how Hindu and Sikh girls dont know their religion but Muslims girls do.

      Some Sikh organisations claimed Muslims were being given £10,000 to convert Sikhs- where on earth would they get that much money from? They can’t even afford decent tiling or carpeting in most mosques. And why specifically Sikhs? All human souls are equal – there is no extra virtue in converting someone from a particular faith. There is a great reward for bringing a person to Islam –which makes the offer of money rather redundant and stupid


      So you’re taking the view of a BNP supporter to make your point. Well done. And do Muslim parents view Sikh boyfriends with fondness?


      Muslim parents don’t generally view any boyfriend/girlfriend with fondness (some do have the Asian hypocrisy of different standards for girls and boys) but there isn’t special animosity towards Sikhs compared to other religions as is the case with Sikh families and Muslim.


      munir
      Simply untrue since large parts of Sikhism are commemorating the evils done to Sikh Gurus by Muslims -repeated year after year in Gurdwaras- and Sikh history is largely about fighting against Muslims

      Sunny
      It’s a fight against Mughals – who attacked Sikhs. In the same way a lot of early Muslim history celebrates fights won over Jews. Does that mean the religion is inherently anti-semitic?


      What planet are you on? Good grief Sunny I thought you knew a bit about Islam. Though we had a few, we don’t commemorate military victories over anyone let alone Jews. We have two festivals in islam Eid ul Fitr- which celebrates the end of Ramdan the month of fasting- and Eid ul Adha at the end of Hajj which commemorates the Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) (Abraham)’s willingness to sacrifice his son on God’s command. That’s it. No more. Some Muslims do celebrate non obligatory festivals like the Prophets birthday (a matter of controversy) but these again have nothing to do with celebrating wars or military conquests. This is what they used to do in “Ayyam al Arab” – the jahili pagan days of the Arabs where they would proudly celebrate great victories and boast of their tribes and greatness. Islam did away with that because it’s about God not your tribe.



      Munir
      In generality you may have a point – but since there are specific anti-Muslim rulings in Sikhism and it grew in opposition to a Muslim polity its dishonest to say Sikhism’s stance towards Islam is the same as its stance towards other faiths.

      Sunny
      Point them out to me.



      The ban on consumption of halal meat?

      Anyway I should apologise- I was a bit too strong in attacking and this brought forth this understandable though suprisingly ill-informed response. As I have said I greatly respect your fairness and integrity so out of respect for these will desist and seek your pardon.
    • Good grief Sunny. Are you referring to the story put about by extremist Hindu/Sikh organisations that HT were passing leaflets and offering money to get Sikh girls to convert? Something that was reported in the right wing press followed up by the police who found zero evidence!!!

      It's not always the case (though it does happen a lot) that when there's no evidence that nothing is behind it. About 5 years ago (July 2004) Al-Muhajiroun were organising an event in central London where they'd celebrate Sikh and Muslims girls who had converted to Islam.

      My point is - you can't say on one thread that the actions of a minority should be used to tar a majority, while use the same argument against Sikhs.

      Good grief Sunny I thought you knew a bit about Islam. Though we had a few, we don’t commemorate military victories over anyone let alone Jews. We have two festivals in islam Eid ul Fitr- which celebrates the end of Ramdan the month of fasting- and Eid ul Adha at the end of Hajj which commemorates the Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) (Abraham)’s willingness to sacrifice his son on God’s command. That’s it. No more.

      There is no Sikh celebration of any kind of victory over Muslims. Some historical events are talked about where Sikhs had to fight Mughals - but that's history. You can't airbrush it out. The Sikh Guru Granth Sahib - the 11th Guru - has contributions from Muslim pirs.

      The ban on consumption of halal meat?

      It's a ban on ritual slaughter and applies to kosher meat as well. The ban is about ritualised slaughter than having anything against Muslims.
    • munir
      Soso

      I suggest you read Maimonides views on the benevolent “tolerance” of Muslim Spain.


      Why ? He was a Nazi idiot who believed blacks were subhuman. Ah yes he was so persecuted (sob) he had to leave Spain ruled by those evil Muslims only finding refuge in ...er Muslim Egypt.

      And this is what he said about how Arabs should be treated

      "Some traditional Jews (including the late Meir Kahane) point to Maimonides urging that Arabs be treated like the conquered Canaanites and repressed with a strong hand . I appeal to Maimonides’ view that even though it is legally permitted to hold slaves, the hallmark of a Jew is kindness"


      Islam is no easier on Jews than Christianity.


      Ah yes - who can forget the horrors of Belsenabad and Al-Aushwitz?

      What you fail to mention is had the boot been on the other foot (Jews ruling Muslims and Christians) things would have been far far worse. Christians were considered Jewish heretics and pagans from a Jewish standpoint and thereby oligatory to kill.

      Since Muslims were generally considered monothiests by Jewish writers they may have had an easier time but bear in mind what Maimondes said above . He also said that someone celebrating a new festival not mentioned in the Torah should be killed. So guess that would mean death for celebrating Eid.

      Genocide of course being amongst the 613 Jewish mitzvot
      - look what they did to the Canaanites and Amalek!

      Islam ordains Jews as "people of the book" to be protected, Christianity made it an obligation to keep Jews alive to prove Jesus(pbuh) messiahship. Judaism had no such allowance of protection over the two later religions which it considers heresies. The medieval Jewish King of Khazar once said to a Muslim visitor: “We would destroy all the churches and mosques in our kingdom right away, but we can’t for fear that they will destroy the synagogues in Baghdad and Constantinople”.


      Bear in mind the secular Jewish state has in less than 60 years decimated the percentage of Muslims and Christans within its borders even when not following religious law

      Thank God He didnt allow medieval orthodox Jews to rule over Muslims and Christians or anyone else!!
    • munir
      This is what Chabad (Banana Brains group) said about war


      "Chabad
      I don’t believe in western morality, i.e. don’t kill civilians or children, don’t destroy holy sites, don’t fight during holiday seasons, don’t bomb cemeteries, don’t shoot until they shoot first because it is immoral.


      The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle).
      "
    • anobody
      billeracydicky,

      You're a paranoid good-for-nothing soul with too much time on his hand. You've got a mole in the council who is probably the same.

      You put too much time and effort into isolated incidents of anti-Semitism, and then link it back to the East London Mosque (ELM), with no trail at all. It is patently obvious it was the work of hoodrat youths, around the time of Israel's incursion into Gaza. Hoodrat youths who probably couldn't find Israel on a map. The same hoodrat youths who probably sell weed and coke to the late night revellers on Brick Lane.

      As I've said before, you don't know the reality on the ground. You hear second hand stories, and sell them as truth from the comfort of your Essex home. The mosque, the synagogue and community around Fieldgate Street are tight - everyone goes about their business. We don't need people like you stirring up furore over nothing.
    • munir
      Sofia
      Punjabi muslims have a lot more in common with sikhs in terms of cultural practice…and yet this is completely overlooked…again…and I agree with Jai, in the last post…I don’t understand what Munir was trying to say about most muslims not knowing what Sikhs are..for God’s sake..it makes muslims out to be as illiterate about anything non muslim as Munir is…



      Perhaps because most Muslims arent Punjabi? Oh wait that cant be true cos you counted all your family and cousins and they are all Punjabis
    • munir
      munir
      the vast majority of Muslims dont even know what a Sikh is.


      This may or may not be true in relation to the global Muslim population as a whole, but it’s completely false in relation to the “vast majority of Muslims” in or from the subcontinent, especially India (most of all the north) and also Pakistan.


      er yes when I said Muslims I mean Muslims - you know all of them/us - not just South Asian muslims

      Its certainly almost certainly true in terms of worldwide muslims. I remeber arguing with an African American brother who was quoting an Arab scholar (!) criticizing Dr Zakir Naik for saying Sikhs were montheists. This scholar was saying Sikhs worshipped snakes and monkeys so how could Zakir Naik say that. I had to politely explain that Sikhs were indeed monotheists and the Sheikh was confusing Hindus and Sikhs


      Again, it raises yet more questions about a) whether Munir is actually South Asian himself,


      Your BNP like obsession with my origins is truly unpleasant. Im British. Funny you would use BNP terminology "South Asian" while obstensively being critical of them



      c) either way, exactly what kind of Muslims he’s been hanging around with, if they’re exhibiting such a high level of ignorance about Sikhs & Sikhism compared to most South Asian Muslims.


      OK OK I admit it youve worn me down -I have been hanging around with some Muslims who arent Asians .. some were even (breaks down) Arab. Oh no how will I be allowed back into the Asian brotherhood I dont give a sh*t about or feel much affinity to?

      Actually most of my Muslims friends ARE Asians but dint of the fact the vast majority of Muslims in the UK are of that background. But sorry to break it to you but we dont spend our evenings speaking about Sikhism. With the greatest respect Sikhism has zero relevance to our religion or lives. Obviously because of your history Muslims and Islam have some degree of importance in yours but this simply isnt reciprocated. I have actually read about Sikhism and know its basics.

      Actually I should stop the taqiyya and be honest - all we do is sit around plotting how we are going to convert Sikh girls and claim our £10,000 prizes. Its our life mission. Happy?
    • munir
      Celtlord
      But you belong to the religion that brought us the holocaust, hiroshima, th genocide of the aboriginal people of Americas, Austarlia as well as the likes of Joseph Fritzl and Baby P’s killers


      A religion that could give the world those beheading vid’s, or send a woman to prison or the lash for being gangraped, or produced people capable of a Beslan, the attack on a school of primary kids in Russia. Where young girls, babies… really, were raped by their jihadi captors to prevent them from achieving paradise.


      All of these things are grave crimes in sharia worthy of the death penalty. Doesnt the fact that a few insane individuals are doing them not the entire Muslim nation tell you something retard?

      I mean look at what white non-Muslims do – try and blow up people (IRA, neal lewingtion, david copeland), kill and abuse children (numerous cases), rape their own daughters (Joseph Fritzl), murder patients (Harold Shipman), their children murder children (Jamie Bulger)

      BTW Where do you get this bull about rape victims being prevented paradise? Bring proof you lying soon to be deleted turd.

      In Islam no act that another person does to you can affect your end destnation – you are responsible only for your own actions.

      Quran 53:38 “no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another”


      ” Ya know virgins get a free ticket to heaven in islamic… ”

      Again thats utter bull with no evidence.Bring evidence from the Quran or the Prophets sayings if you are truthful.You cannot.
    • anobody
      Munir:

      "With the greatest respect Sikhism has zero relevance to our religion or lives. Obviously because of your history Muslims and Islam have some degree of importance in yours but this simply isnt reciprocated. I have actually read about Sikhism and know its basics."

      I think that's fair.

      Outside of Pakistan (and maybe pockets of Bangladesh), Muslims probably know as much about what a Sikh represents as they do a Rasta (which has nothing to do with illiteracy). The Indo-Pak rivalvry, is why Sikhism is more on the radar for Pakistanis than other Muslims.

      Examples can be seen in the UK, where tensions do exist between Sikh and Muslim communities, it is always Sikhs and Mirpuri Pakistanis (if we want to get specific).

      I'm sorry to say in my experience Sikhs have more ill feeling towards Muslims as a whole, than the other way around.
    • munir
      anobody

      I’m sorry to say in my experience Sikhs have more ill feeling towards Muslims as a whole, than the other way around.


      yep me too - its religous based- its because of the offing of some of their Gurus by Muslim rulers.
    • munir
      OK OK peace peace

      Here are a couple of very interesting articles

      Frères ennemis? Relations between Panjabi Sikhs and Muslims in the Diaspora

      http://samaj.revues.org/index135.html


      Re-Imagining Sikh-Muslim Relations in the Light of the Life of Baba Nanak

      http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/featur...
    • Random Guy
      I think Celtlord is a 14-year old. Damn, we have to do something about GCSEs and teaching kids how to write.
    • sonia
      Heh can't really work out what this thread is all about, people seem to be arguing about their pet bees in bonnets regardless.

      there is a lot of bias going around all directions seems to me, why is there such an anti-hp bias on PP?!

      Muslim terrorists are in vogue, that's obvious, end of story. may as well enjoy the notoriety before it dies down and becomes about i don't know..eco terrorists or something.
    • sonia
      its all relative isnt it. in kuwait when i was growing up the popular stereotype of a terrorist was always an iranian one.
    • sonia
      munir - your sarcastic tone to sofia is unwarranted.
    • billericaydicky
      anybody,

      I don't live in Essex I live in the East End. The significance of my user name is from a song by Ian Dury and the blockheads. Dickey is, like myself, a bricklayer.

      So what else have you got wrong. You seem to be saying that the communities in the East End are "tight", interesting phrase as I believe Imran Khan has used it, bit of a coincidence.

      Well what is my evidence for the East London Mosque and Islamic centre being used by extremists and what are its links to the leadership of the ruling Labour group on Tower Hamlets Council?

      Lst year one of the Immam's of the Mosque in Mecca was pgotographed coming out of an unannounced meeting with the Leader of the Council Lutfor Rahman, the Mayor and a couple of other flunkeys.

      This particular Mosque is importand in the narritive so pay attention! Another of the Immam's there is Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais. He is currently banned from Canada and has been prevented at times from getting US visas because of his extremism.

      His statementsare an interesting example of how so called " moderate" Muslims are very often nothing of the kind. Try the following fromthis man of peace.

      " The worst of the enemies of Islam are those whom he made monkeys and pigs, the agressive Jew and oppressive Zionists and those who follow them: the callers of the trinity and the cross worshippers...those influenced by the rottenness of their ideas, and the poison of their cultures the followers of secularism...how can we talk sweetly when the Hindus and the idol worshippers indulge in the overwhelming hatred against our brothers...in Muslim Kashmir". All good stuff that binds all of those communities in the East End together eh?

      The we have.

      " Read history and you will know that yesterday's Jews were bad predecessors and today's Jews are worse successors. They are killers of prophets and the scum of the earth. God hurled his curses on them and made them monkeys and pigs and worshippers of tyrants. These are the Jews, a continuous lineage of meanness, cunning, obstinacy, tyranny, evil and corruption.

      They sow corruption on earth...O Muslims. the Islamic nation of today is at the peak of a conflict with the enemies of yesterday, today and tomorrow, with the grandsons of Bani Quraydah,Al Nadiri and Qaynuqua (all Jewish tribes in the early days of Islam).

      May God's curses follow them until the day of judgement.... The conflict is exploding and magnifying, the exploitation and greed are increasing, and the indulgence in humbling Arabs and Muslims in their holy places has become very serious by the world rodents that have revoked pacts and agreements.

      Treachery, sabotage and cunning dominate their minds and injustice and tyranny flow in their veins...They cannot but remain arrogant, reckless, corrupt and harmfull. Thus, they deserve the curse of God, his angels and all people".

      Now you would have though that all of this would have made any responsible British based Muslim politician think twice about being associated with the likes of this Immam. Not in the case of the leadership of Tower Halets Labour Party though.

      On the 21st of April this year a very select group went to Mecca and visited the Mosque where Al-Sudais is an Immam. They comprised the leader Lutfor Rahman and Cllrs Rafique Ahmed, Abdul Salique and Wahid Ahmed.

      Also present was Hira Islam an executive with Tower Hamlets Social Services Dpt and a leading member of IFE. He is also the owner of the Halal Bite at 198 Mile End Road E1 which is owned by and is the official European headquarters of IFE.

      So what was the reaction of the "moderate" leadership of the Muslim community in Britain? You would have thought that they would have denounced the Imman and all his statements.

      Well you would have been wrong. The Muslim Council of Britain issued a statement condemning the Panorama programme which exposed the racism and anti semitism of Al-Sudais and the director John Ware and claimed that there was a " witch-hunt against British Muslims.

      This is what they said. " The Muslim Council of Britain strongly abhors any form of racism, including anti semitism. Islam as a faith is famously colour-blind and was revealed to bring together people of all nations in worship of one true God. Ware quotes the Immam of the Ka'Bah as allegedly making anti-semitic remarks.

      If this was the case we would condemn them completely. However based on Ware's " selective" quotations(their parenthesis)which we have highlighted earlier in this response we would urge caution and verification that these were indeed uttered by the Immam of the Ka'Bah".

      So, as with the apologists for the black American racist Louis Farrakhan like lawyer Peter Herbert, OBV Director Simon Wooley and professional dickhead Lee Jasper, the man of peace Al-Sudais has been misquoted.

      This wasthe response of the BBC.

      " You have complained that the programme maligned certain organisation affiliated to the MCB, even though the programme highlighted their sermons, documents and conduct which were sectarian or which demonised other faiths and races and which wer likely to foment division.

      Such views were either advocated by these affiliates or appeared to be tolerated by them. You have also accused us of being engaged in a "witch-hunt against British Muslims. I simply cannot accept that highlighting racist and sectarian language amounts to persecution.

      You have expressed scepticism that Sheikh Al-Sudais, who was an honoured guest at the East London Mosque where the MCB's Deputy General Secretary is Chairman, had previously said in Mecca that Jews were " monkeys and pigs", "rats of the world" and the offspring of "apes and pigs"; that Christians were "cross worshippers"...thoise influenced by the rottenness of their ideas and the poison of their cultures the followers of secularism, and that Hindus were "idol worshippers". I can assure you that he did. His sermons are are available from a Saudi web site covering Mosques in the holy cities of Mecca and Medina and the translation we used was verified by BBC Monitoring, a fluent Arab speaker on our production team and a translator outside the BBC.

      So there you have it people. A rabid hater of Jews, Christians and Hindus linked to the leadership of Tower Hamlets Labour Party and the East London Mosque. What I would like to see now is all of the above being taken apart line by line and shown to be a massive conspiracy to destroy the " tight" relationship that is supposed to exist between all of the communities in Tower Hamlets.
    • billaricaydickey
      Worth looking at what the CST and Mark Gardiner actually say. www.thecst.org.uk/blog.
    • munir
      "Worth looking at what the CST and Mark Gardiner actually say. http://www.thecst.org.uk/blog."

      Yeah these jokers consider criticism of Israel and its evil blockade and bombing of the men, women and children of Gaza "anti-semitic". They are comical - there is no mainstream anti-semitism yet these people search ever obscure nook and cranny to find it and justify their fees and neuroses.


      "A rabid hater of Jews, Christians and Hindus linked to the leadership of Tower Hamlets Labour Party and the East London Mosque"

      Hilarious - a single visit of the Imam of the holiest mosque in the world means there is a "link"- you of course have no problem with the rabid haters of Muslims linked to many political parties in this land
    • billaricaydicky
      Munir,
      Imran Khan,
      Little black sister,
      Anybody,
      Kumar Murshid,
      IFE,
      The Leadership of Tower Hamlets Labour Party,
      MCB,
      HuT
      Muslim Brotherhood,

      Deal with the information that I have put before you all. Is there anything about that, that you do not understand?
    • munir
      billeracy dicky
      "Deal with the information that I have put before you all. Is there anything about that, that you do not understand?"

      why? you are a confirmed inventor of tales with no evidence, hostile to Muslims, who keeps repeating the same lies despite having been shown the evidence
    • cjcjc
      Meanwhile Mr Hasan has been recorded saying some rather unpleasant things...ooops!

      http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/07/24/medhi-ha...
    • Don
      I don't get to see many of Celtlord's posts, them getting deleted pretty sharpish, so I'm confused as to why munir spends so much time telling us he is a genocidal sikh and then says,

      Celtlord
      But you belong to the religion that brought us the holocaust, hiroshima, the genocide of the aboriginal people of Americas, Austarlia as well as the likes of Joseph Fritzl and Baby P’s killers


      Actually, I didn't even know that Baby P's killers were religious.
    • munir
      cjcjc
      "Meanwhile Mr Hasan has been recorded saying some rather unpleasant things…ooops!"

      Ah yes - another (Muslims) career destroyed by the zionazis at HP

      Lets hope the New Statesman is willing to stand up to Ziofascist bullying- somehow I doubt it.

      and coming from you cjcjc the man who said

      “I am sure that David is right in the sense that the whole of Britain will not turn into Tower Hamlets.
      That does not solve the problem of Tower Hamlets.

      this is mild mild stuff
    • Imran Khan
      Dicky - There is little doubt that you are a stirrer and are simply peddling nonsense.

      I read the CST Report yesterday and it was very clear in how they put together data unlike your nonsense. They were very clear that the spike in antisemitism was linked to events in the Middle East but their worry was that the spike didn't reduce as has been the case in the past.

      The CST has faults but it is doing an important job and the fact that people like you take their work and manipulate it to your own ends simply means that people are less likely to take the CST work seriously.

      Now you are busy documenting all the ills of Eats London mosque supposedly but without little evidence. Tell me what is the Jewish Community doing to curb the extremist statements made in its midst. I really didn't want to go down this road but you are forcing my hand.

      What they are doing is little if anything.

      What about Jewish MP's who represent large Muslim consituents do the Mps represent their views or back Israel regardless? Is that democratic?

      My point here isn't to deride the Jewish Community but to highlight to you that there are equally extreme positions in your own community which are not being dealt with.

      Your deception in mixing up tales shows the game you are playing. East London Mosque has played host to many Imams from Makkah as synagogues do for Rabbi's. Their views they state abroad are not always brilliant but that is a fact of life. Sudais said something inappropriate but so did the Chief Rabbi of Israel on a recent visit here. Sudais comments were not made here.

      Did the feckin BBC or feckin Panorama or Ware make any programmes about that? No why not? Strange that BBC Policy has been very different since Mark Thompson held a meeting with Ariel Sharon and he won't discuss why he held the meeting.

      Its easy to hide behind problems in abnother community and yes there are problems but not on the scale you make out. If you as a mole are shit stirring with right wing papers then that says more about you than the mosque.

      You not produced an shred of evidence for your claims and frankly are doing a disservice to the discussion here and deliberately trying to derail any discussion sympathetic to Muslims. You'd be more at home at HP where possibly most of your like reside.

      East London Mosque makes mistakes but it also does good things so don't destroy the organisation but rather ask it to change when it gets things wrong.

      Strange how Muslims haven't done the same for extremism by Jewish Organisations but its fair game the other way.

      Sorry to all the fine Jewish people here who really are excellent to discuss with but this guy I am sick of and his stirring doesn't get us all anywhere.
    • cjcjc
      Because someone with those views is perfectly suited to be NS political editor, right?

      How can he bring himself to do it anyway?

      Writing every week for those "cattle" of "no intelligence"...
    • Imran Khan
      cjcjc - Simon Rocker has been highlighting the extemist statements made by Jews but is that being covered at HP?

      Every community has these problems but running a blog to pretend it is a one sided issue is frankly piss poor.

      Simon Rocker has another excellent piece on a different subject at JC today.

      These are the type of people you need to look up and not HP and DaveT.
    • Don
      If the Political Editor of the New Statesman did actually say that atheists are 'cattle' of 'no intelligence' then I think that is relevant and should be discussed. By all means provide context, but that, as presented, was a stupid, intolerant and offensive remark. And I do not give a tinker's damn whether he is a muslim or not.

      Munir, what is the difference between a zionazi and a Ziofascist? And why should a zio-anything care what anybody says about atheists?
    • munir
      cjcj
      "Because someone with those views is perfectly suited to be NS political editor, right?"

      How is a racist suitable to be Chief Rabbi?
      Sorry oxymoronic question :)
    • Imran Khan
      Why is it that certain members of one community always always always get annoyed if an editor is sympathetic to Muslims but rarely display the same level of anger when an editor is sympathetic to their community.

      Amazingly its always the same people here who derail threads which in any way are slightly sympathetic to Muslims/Arabs/Palestinians.

      Every thread produces the same lame response.

      Its as if these people spend their entire time hunting down and complaining about any sympathy to Muslims.
    • Paul Moloney
      "another (Muslims) career destroyed by the zionazis at HP"

      Oh right, the Zionazis must have used the Orbital Mind Control Laser to make him say the words "atheists are cattle" (and when you hear how he spits out the words, it's chilling).

      P.
    • munir
      Paul Moloney
      Oh right, the Zionazis must have used the Orbital Mind Control Laser to make him say the words “atheists are cattle” (and when you hear how he spits out the words, it’s chilling).


      They must have used them on you if you think its "chilling" (LOL) how he "spits them out"- he slightly raises his voice but isnt even ranting and raving.

      Are you OK Paul? You wont be too scared to sleep alone tonight after this "chilling" speech? . Remember to leave the light on. If youre really really scared I could send you chairwoman, BB, cjcjc and marvin - they are under my bed.

      In any case athiests types consider religious types to be brainless "cattle" who dont think or use their minds- why it suddenly becomes an issue when a thiest says it is bizarre.
    • chairwoman
      "They are comical – there is no mainstream anti-semitism yet these people search ever obscure nook and cranny to find it and justify their fees and neuroses."

      You really are obtuse Munir. No actually I can't be bothered.
    • munir
      Don
      If the Political Editor of the New Statesman did actually say that atheists are ‘cattle’ of ‘no intelligence’ then I think that is relevant and should be discussed. By all means provide context, but that, as presented, was a stupid, intolerant and offensive remark. And I do not give a tinker’s damn whether he is a muslim or not.


      Yes Don you may not care but HP assuredly do

      They oppose Hasan because he is
      1) Muslim
      2) Stands up for Muslims (look at Sunnys post on how they condemned him for pointing out unfair media coverage)
      3) He is a defender of the Palestinins/ critic of Israel

      They in true "MEMRI" style take this excerpt and dont show us what he said before or after . If Trevor Phillips made some injudicous remarks it would of course be something to talk about - if it was the BNP highlighting these remarks that would be a differnt scenario
    • The Common Humanist
      If the Editor of The Spectator or The Sun went on a rant talking about 'Niggers' and 'Paki's' everyone would be outraged and rightly so.

      Using Kuffir/Kuffar is NO DIFFERENT.

      It is very offensive indeed to Non-Muslims and muslims need to start appreciating that fact.
    • The Common Humanist
      Munir,

      No, they oppose him because he is a small minded reactionary who talks about non muslims in the way the BNP talk about black and asian people.
    • munir
      CommonHumanist


      If the Editor of The Spectator or The Sun went on a rant talking about ‘Niggers’ and ‘Paki’s’ everyone would be outraged and rightly so.

      Using Kuffir/Kuffar is NO DIFFERENT.


      Yes it is because Asians and Blacks are races. Non-Muslims arent

      People like you spill much ink over how "Muslims arent a race; Muslims arent a race" - so criticising them isnt like criticising blacks or asians. But neither are non-Muslims.



      It is very offensive indeed to Non-Muslims and muslims need to start appreciating that fact.


      Says the man who uses terms offensive to Muslims like "Islamofacist" "Islamist" and "Islamic terrorism"

      Since when do non-Muslims (especially those who bring up such issues) give a sh*t about not offending Muslims?
    • munir
      Common Humanist
      No, they oppose him because he is a small minded reactionary who talks about non muslims in the way the BNP talk about black and asian people.


      This is HP we are talking about -small minded reactionaries who talk about muslims the way the BNP talk about black and asian people.
    • munir
      Common Humanists

      No, they oppose him because he is a small minded reactionary who talks about non muslims in the way the BNP talk about black and asian people.


      He said athiests not non-Muslims- unless you are implying all non Muslims are athiests which is grotesquely offensive

      And the BNP talk much much more about Muslims than they do about blacks or asians. Kind of fvcks up your argument.

      The fact given Muslims are the BNPs main target you didnt mention them says it all - you find anti-Muslim comments ok- so why complain about anti-nonMuslim comments?
    • The Common Humanist
      Munir

      I appreciate you enjoy being a combination of obtuseness and deliberately simple minded. However, stop being silly.

      I don't like anti muslim comments but hey, free country, you can say what you like. I do however positively encourage anti islamist comments. Much as I appreciate anti nazi or BNP comments. Much of a muchness really.

      And yes, these days I am used to the fact you - wahhabis excepted - lump together normal muslims with reactionary extremists and you see little or no difference in that and then wonder in feigned surprise when people, like myself, see the very real and clear differences between the nutters and the normals. If I took your approach I would equate quakers with the KKK.

      HP does sterling work exposing nutters from all creeds, I think the comments box is infested with rightwignutwankers but David T and Co are intelligent and thoughtful chaps.

      Do you think the use of Kuffar is acceptable or will you practise your usual avoidance of debate and call me an islamaphobe? (Admittedly I am Talebanaphobic but then so are most muslims)
    • The Common Humanist
      Munir

      I appreciate you enjoy being a combination of obtuseness and deliberately simple minded. However, stop being silly.

      I don't like anti muslim comments but hey, free country, you can say what you like. I do however positively encourage anti islamist comments. Much as I appreciate anti nazi or BNP comments. Much of a muchness really.

      And yes, these days I am used to the fact you - wahhabis excepted - lump together normal muslims with reactionary extremists and you see little or no difference in that and then wonder in feigned surprise when people, like myself, see the very real and clear differences between the nutters and the normals. If I took your approach I would equate quakers with the KKK.

      HP does sterling work exposing nutters from all creeds, I think the comments box is infested with rightwignutwankers but David T and Co are intelligent and thoughtful chaps.

      Do you think the use of Kuffar is acceptable or will you practise your usual avoidance of debate and call me an islamaphobe? (Admittedly I am Talebanaphobic but then so are most muslims)
    • The Common Humanist
      Cack. Apologies PP for the double post!
    • munir
      The Common Humanist

      I don’t like anti muslim comments but hey, free country, you can say what you like. I do however positively encourage anti islamist comments. Much as I appreciate anti nazi or BNP comments. Much of a muchness really.


      Much like I encourage anti-zionist comments


      Do you think the use of Kuffar is acceptable


      I already explicitly said I dont use it or agree with it . I don’t like anti non-Muslim comments but hey, free country, you can say what you like.

      You said you want people to stop using it because you find offensive. Well Muslims find Islamofascism , Islamic terrorism and Islamist none of which are terms we dont use in our religion offesive- you are not gonna stop using those are you?



      It is very offensive indeed to Non-Muslims and muslims need to start appreciating that fact.


      Well the Satanic Verses and Danish cartoons were very offensive to Muslims. Whats your point?
    • The Common Humanist
      Munir
      Are you seriously suggesting that the term 'islamic terrorism' - i.e. terrorism cmommitted by groups that they themselves say is islamically inspired (However stupid that is - and wingnuts aside we all know it is) is the same as calling a black person a 'nigger' etc???

      Really?

      Islamist is a standard political term for far right reactionary muslims. Islamofascist is hyperbolic but does accurately describe Hezbollah and Hamas.

      Kaffir, Nigger and Paki are all nasty offensive rascist or culturalist terms used to generate deep deep offense.
    • munir
      Common Humanist

      Are you seriously suggesting that the term ‘islamic terrorism’ – i.e. terrorism cmommitted by groups that they themselves say is islamically inspired (However stupid that is – and wingnuts aside we all know it is) is the same as calling a black person a ‘nigger’ etc???


      Retard. You are the one suggesting its equivalent "kafir" is as offensive as n*gger

      Islamist is a standard political term for far right reactionary muslims. Islamofascist is hyperbolic but does accurately describe Hezbollah and Hamas.


      I and many many Muslims find these especially the second as deeply offensive (more ) than "Paki" and as offensive as you claim to find kafir


      Your so extreme that even the Bush whitehouse has junked a term you use:

      In April 2008, Associated Press reported that US federal agencies, including the State Department and the Department of Homeland Security, were advised to stop using the term 'Islamo-fascism' in a 14-point memo issued by the Extremist Messaging Branch, a department of another federal body known as the National Counterterrorism Center. Aimed at improving the presentation of the "War on Terrorism" before Muslim audiences and the media, the memo states: "We are communicating with, not confronting, our audiences. Don't insult or confuse them with pejorative terms such as 'Islamo-fascism,' which are considered offensive by many Muslims." [42]



      Juan Cole, professor of modern Middle East and South Asian history at the University of Michigan regards the term "Islamofascism" as offensive and tantamount to hate speech, because, he argues, it is a desecration that is profoundly insulting to Muslims,

      "It is hard to see the difference between the bigotry of anti-Semitism as an evil and the bigotry that [Michael] Medved displays toward Islam. It is more offensive than I can say for him to use the word "Islamo-fascist." Islam is a sacred term to 1.3 billion people in the world. It enshrines their highest ideals.


      To combine it with the word "fascist" in one phrase is a desecration and a form of hate speech. Are there Muslims who are fascists? Sure. But there is no Islamic fascism, since "Islam" has to do with the highest ideals of the religion. In the same way, there have been lots of Christian fascists, but to speak of Christo-Fascism is just offensive." [9]

      "Islamofascism is nothing but an empty propaganda term. And wartime propaganda is usually, if not always, crafted to produce hysteria, the destruction of any sense of proportion. Such words, undefined and unmeasured, are used by people more interested in making us lose our heads than in keeping their own." [11] —Joseph Sobran, paleoconservative Catholic commentator.
    • munir
      Common Humanist

      If the Editor of The Spectator or The Sun went on a rant talking about ‘Niggers’ and ‘Paki’s’ everyone would be outraged and rightly so.

      Using Kuffir/Kuffar is NO DIFFERENT.


      Common Zionist think you need to have a word with some of your non Muslim friends- they proudly call themselves kafir

      They are such saddos they make and pay money for t-shirts telling everyone they are "proud to be kafir"

      http://images7.cafepress.com/product/46673047v5...

      http://rlv.zcache.com/kafir_tshirt-p23516469316...

      http://images2.cafepress.com/product/46674062v2...


      So how can it be offensive?

      How sad to define your whole existence in life by something you are not

      Its cool though-Islamophobia gives no life losers something to do and something to focus on
    • The Common Humanist
      MUnir

      "Retard. You are the one suggesting its equivalent “kafir” is as offensive as n*gger"

      WTF? Retard? Thanks for that.

      YOU have just suggested that those terms (islamist etc) were as offensive as n*gger etc. Not me.

      Oddball.
    • The Common Humanist
      "How sad to define your whole existence in life by something you are not"

      LoL. I can always rely on Munir to provide comedic relief. Define whole existence?>

      Awwww bless.
    • munir
      MUnir

      “Retard. You are the one suggesting its equivalent “kafir” is as offensive as n*gger”

      Common Humanist

      YOU have just suggested that those terms (islamist etc) were as offensive as n*gger etc. Not me.



      162 Common Humanist

      If the Editor of The Spectator or The Sun went on a rant talking about ‘Niggers’ and ‘Paki’s’ everyone would be outraged and rightly so.

      Using Kuffir/Kuffar is NO DIFFERENT.
    • Boyo
      The "cattle" reference btw is best listened to - it's on HP now. Read words lack the vitriol with which the word is uttered, particularly the second time around. I would refuse to work with him if I was on the NS, as I would refuse to work with a racist or homophobe.
    • The Common Humanist
      Munir

      Thats not what you were talking about. You responded to my comment, which is below, with what came after:

      "Islamist is a standard political term for far right reactionary muslims. Islamofascist is hyperbolic but does accurately describe Hezbollah and Hamas.

      "I and many many Muslims find these especially the second as deeply offensive (more ) than “Paki” and as offensive as you claim to find kafir"

      You are not a stupid person, just willfully and deliberately obtuse.
    • Don
      Could we drop the 'retard' thing? It's offensive.
    • Leon
      Indeed. Please stop it or it will be a case of deleting shitty comments left right and centre.
    • douglas clark
      Ladies and Gentlemen,

      If you expect anyone apart from your immediate adversary to follow the issues that are at hand could you please link more directly to the comment you are replying to.

      It is almost completely pointless to say:

      Don,

      when Don may have written numerous posts on a thread.

      Please say Don @ 92, or whatever.

      This site is read by a lot of folk, and if you are trying to make your point to an audience as well as to your immediate interlocuter, it would help everyone to understand the issues involved, if this simple procedure was followed.

      Dons' arguement may be irrefutable, or munirs' response may have been a completely successful demolition. Maybe one or the other of them is licking their wounds, but the rest of us are not much the wiser.

      The reason I say this is because munir replied to don, and I still can't find the post munir was replying to.

      I'm sure I saw it once, but it got away... :-).

      Sorry to both of you for using you as an example....

      I shall make sure I follow this new etiquette even if no-one else does.
    • douglas clark
      An 'Allegory, or Somesuch', for you amusement, delectation or downright incredibility.

      AN ACT in two parts. Err: Part One:

      --------------------------------------------------

      I've re-read the entire thread and I have rarely seen such arguements, where bigotry, prejudice and idiocy and folk screaming us! us! us!

      I haven't heard that sort of shit outside a Rangers -v- Celtic Match.

      What a lot of disrespect there is out there.

      How many for the Obama birthers? How many against? It gets, frankly, down to whether there is room for compromise or not. It is, frankly - did I say that already - not obvious that there is.

      Anyway, let us enter the world of allegory? It is a bit different, but I assure you, interesting:


      ----------------------------------------------

      Part Two

      On the other side of that enormous plain is a little hill that has grown a bit over the last few hundred years or so. It actually isn't quite in Everests' opposing grasp quite now, plate techtonics would 'never' allow that But it opposes that Everest on the other side. It says that adaptation, whether social, cultural or sexual is OK. It grows like a dump heap, many folk flee across the plain to the Everest on the other side. But some remain.

      Those, of a religious and Samaritan nature, who clearly sit quite high up on the shoulders of Everest, perhaps just above the Kangshung Face look to their brothers and sisters on the dump heap across the plain. They send them blessings, they send them prayers, they send them all sort of religious icons.

      And when they arrive, they die. Because the folk on the dump heap, do not believe the message they contain.

      The dump heap becomes a little mountain, built on the dead blessings, the dead prayers and all sort of religious icons. Because not one of them, when it crossed the plain in the middle, proved to be useful.
      Not the prayers for the living nor the prayers for the dead. So, the offerings from the Everest of Religion made a little pile on the floor of the dump on the other side.

      And it grew, so it did.

      The more the faithful sent their caravanseri across the plain with their worthless goods, the surer it was that the other mountain was built. For, on that side of the plain, each and every intercession seemed to fail, so it did, and each and every miracle was no more than the act of a charlatan. They screwed up these ideas and used them as landfill. Their little hill became a peak of some reknown. Not as challenging as Everest, oh no, but folk had died trying to scale it. On that scale, a major Alp, perhaps
    • douglas clark
      Well, as Sunny is perhaps sleeping, he should forget my cri de coeur. The end of my allegory is thus.

      There were angry folk on Mount Everest, who said, these folk take our words and they turn them to dust. What is to be done about that?

      And the plains grew more barren, as the children of doubt who had inhabited these lands choose one side, the little hill of agonticism, or the huge great mountain of religion. Though, they were not particularily sure, either way.

      But, almost like wraithes in the sunlight, folk walked away from the wrath of the Gods on Everest, for the wrath of the Gods was a bit like your mother telling you, you couldn't have a Twinkle.

      And they too crossed that plain, making the molehill, a hill, and then a mountain.

      Now that, is allegory.
    • douglas clark
      Still,

      In the icy cold heart of that crumbing monolith, boundless and bare, we shall call it munir, and we shall despair.

      --------------------

      End of Act Three.
    • marvin
      #149

      Hahahah hahaha hahah hahahah

      It turns out that the editor of a prominent left wing magazine thinks disbelievers are cattle with no intelligence. An Islamic. Fundamentalist. Editor. Of. Left. Wing. Magazine.

      Hahahaha hahaha hahahah hahaha hahahaha.

      The left is truly f****ed.

      And I repeat:

      Anyone who calls me a KAFFIR to my face I will punch there and then. The racist does not get to decide what is offensive or not - the object of their hate does.
    • marvin
      Sorry, he's Political Editor at the NS.

      AND he's written for the 'liberal' Guardian newspaper. Quelle surprise.

      AND he's current affairs editor at Channel 4!

      Hahahahah hahaha haahaa hahahaha

      What on earth is wrong with today's 'progressives' that they cannot spot a bigoted religious fundamentalist --- but only when they have brown skin???
    • munir
      marvin

      It turns out that the editor of a prominent left wing magazine thinks disbelievers are cattle with no intelligence. An Islamic. Fundamentalist. Editor. Of. Left. Wing. Magazine.


      Why is this any different from having a supporter of a Jewish racist state (a zionist) as editor?


      Hahahaha hahaha hahahah hahaha hahahaha.

      The left is truly f****ed.


      says the man who thinks its a disgrace a Muslim be given a job as BBC religion editor


      The racist does not get to decide what is offensive or not – the object of their hate does.


      Quite. As a Muslim I find "Islamist" "Islamofacism" and "Islamic terrorism" offensive - you and fellow Muslim haters arent going to stop using them - so why should kafir stop being used? (
    • douglas clark
      cjcjc @ 149,

      It is worth perhaps actually spelling out what the somewhat speckle flecked Mr Hussan has to say about atheists:

      “The kaffar, the disbelievers, the atheists who remain deaf and stubborn to the teachings of Islam, the rational message of the Quran; they are described in the Quran as, quote, “a people of no intelligence”, Allah describes them as; not of no morality, not as people of no belief - people of “no intelligence” - because they’re incapable of the intellectual effort it requires to shake off those blind prejudices, to shake off those easy assumptions about this world, about the existence of God. In this respect, the Quran describes the atheists as “cattle”, as cattle of those who grow the crops and do not stop and wonder about this world.”


      Altough the inflammatory nature of that is better captured on audio, for he has that staccatto speech pattern of the absolute nutter. Listen again to a lunatic:

      http://tinyurl.com/kqek5g


      Nothing, not his religion, nor his colour, nor worse of all, his blind prejudice, excuses him that little soundbite.

      What might excuse him is my blind desire to punch him in the face.

      And I used to have a subscription to the 'New Statesman', may it rot in hell...
    • douglas clark
      Sorry to anyone called Hussan out there, the righteous target of my ire is actually called Mehdi Hasan.
    • munir
      douglas clark
      And I used to have a subscription to the ‘New Statesman’, may it rot in hell…


      You just know that David T et al at HP expressing mock outrage at Mehdi Hasan have subscriptions to the Spectator et al where they lap up Mel Phillips inflammatory rants against Muslims- the rants of a nutter

      They of course had a link to Mel Philips on their site
    • douglas clark
      munir @ 187,

      because using derogatory terms to describe any given group of people cheapens debate. Someone used the words 'four by twos' to me the other day, and it took me a moment or two to realise this was rhyming slang for Jews. They probably thought that that was a coded message.

      Should four by twos be banned? Of course not, joiners and the like everywhere would be outraged. For the fact of the matter is that words are co-opted by those that use them. And only the most egregious cases should be 'policed'.

      That sort of phrase is wielded by the sort of crazies like Mehdi Hasan in order to poison politics, or even reasonable discussion. It is the sort of intolerable playing to the gallery that allowed Southern Senators to say things like:

      President Truman's civil rights program "is a farce and a sham--an effort to set up a police state in the guise of liberty. I am opposed to that program. I have voted against the so-called poll tax repeal bill. . .. I have voted against the so-called anti-lynching bill."


      Offensive? Obviously.

      That was Lyndon B Johnson in 1948, then a Senator and later a President. So, please do not assume that your warped little defence of derogatory language is, in fact, anything much better than a brother or a sister to the coded racism that sired it.
    • douglas clark
      munir @ 190,

      Agreed.

      If I were ever to feel that my blood pressure was getting low, then reading Melanie Philips blog on the Spectator would be an immediate cure.

      I am frankly astonished at that particular blog. Not so much that it exists, but that it does in the context of a magazine that wants to be taken seriously.
    • munir
      douglas clark

      because using derogatory terms to describe any given group of people cheapens debate.


      You mean like saying "they do it because they are Muslim men" (abuse women) or "well thats Munirs culture isnt it " (forced marriage) both of which you have said

      So are offensive terms like "Islamist", "Islamofacist" "Islamic terrorism" or the panapoly of other anti-Muslim terms used so often going to be stopped ? Are they f.


      That sort of phrase is wielded by the sort of crazies like Mehdi Hasan in order to poison politics,


      Well Mehdi Hasan was speaking in a private capacity at a mosque and talking about people who dont believe in God. Not sure what that has to do with politics

      Given the trunated clip comes from the Muslim-hating witch-hunters at HP I take it with a huge sack of sodium chloride

      The link you posted was to "Harrys Place vids" featuring various attacks on people (including Jews) who have dared criticise Der Fourth Reich.

      That was Lyndon B Johnson in 1948, then a Senator and later a President. So, please do not assume that your warped little defence of derogatory language is, in fact, anything much better than a brother or a sister to the coded racism that sired it.


      Given your anti-Muslim comments thats hilarious!
    • douglas clark
      munir @ 193,

      I, along with many other people here, find you an offensive little twat. You are, indeed the mirror image of Melanie Philips, though perhaps without the villa in Italy.

      If I really did say these things, please provide links and we can then discuss them in context. It is also as clear as day that any attempt to find common ground with you is a waste of time. For you cannot move forward. As you increasingly cut yourself off from any sort of dialogue that isn't completely on your terms.

      Such is your mind set.

      I have tried, repeatedly, to hold out an olive branch to you, but I suspect you now of taking great glee in hacking that off the tree. A confirmation that the kaffir is unworthy of your consideration.

      You mistake my newly acquired, utter contempt for you, munir, with anti - muslim prejudice, it's what keeps you getting up in the morning. A convenient conflation of your own ridiculous prejudices, outright nastiness and utter inability to see the wood from the trees.

      It wouldn't matter if you were on here representing the Klu Klux Klan, your complete inability to debate rather than lecture would have got the same reaction from me.

      So, no more.
    • douglas clark
      I am equal opportunities in my scepticism about religions.

      Just so's you know.

      Doesn't mean I dislike their adherents, it just bothers me, a lot, that they all seem more concerned about their differences rather than their common humanity.

      What did God have to say about GM crops, or stem cell research specifically. Not a lot, unless someone interprets it for him "for the modern era". Much as the Pope has done over contraception and Aids prevention in Africa.

      And your idea that a videoed conversation in front of an audience is in any way, shape or form a private conversation is bunkum.
    • marvin
      194# go Douglas!

      I think we've all tried with munir.

      I suspect he's quite a young chap. I don't know quite what else can explain the sheer hubris of the guy. I will not go so far as to label him a troll, which is faaaar too often used to shut down debate with people who's views differ widely from one's on... but he does pretend that commenters have said things they havent said, or deliberately and extensively twist others words. I assume to provoke a reaction.

      Possibly he actually believes what he says. Who knows. But I've given up on munir. Munir if you continue as you do people you'll find people will talk to you less and less.
    • Edna Welthorpe
      ATTENTION, SANCTIMONIOUS ANTI-RACISTS !
      [and allied bores]

      Stuck for a word when shouting down your opponents?

      Here at last is the essential vocabulary you need:

      STAGE ONE:
      unhelpful hurtful alarmist
      irresponsible scaremongering [if someone tells you to count the number of 5-year-olds in Birmingham with Muslim names, for example]
      harmful to community cohesion

      STAGE TWO:
      fascist racist
      racialist [not often heard these days]
      xenophobic Islamophobic
      ... sowing racial and religious hatred
      bigoted - bigotry - bigot

      STAGE THREE
      ... hate speech ... [this one wins every argument; game, set and match to those uttering it!]
    • munir
      marvin

      but he does pretend that commenters have said things they havent said, or deliberately and extensively twist others words. I assume to provoke a reaction.


      marvin you stated that a Muslim shouldnt be appointed head of BBC religion and railed against his appointment. There isnt anyway you can worm out of that

      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4279#co...
    • anobody
      billericaydick,

      I don't listen to music, so I am sorry for making the assumption that you are from Essex. However, everything else in my post stands. You take huge leaps of faith to tie together unrelated incidents, trying to create furore. Your central allegation being that the Synagogue on Fieldgate Street, is being bullied and harrassed by the ELM. You have not provided a shred of evidence to prove this.

      Previously you claimed that the Council is an extremist outpost run by terrorist Muslim Labour councillors. The same councillors who have recently appointed an interim chief executive (Kevan Collins) who is gay. You claimed the previous chief exec was sacked by the Labour Group over some disagreement over the ELM's leasehold - to which no evidence was provided by yourself.

      So how is it a terrorist Muslim Labour leader of the Council sacked a chief executive, and put in place a homosexual man in his place. This is the same Council, which ranks very highly with Stonewall as an employer of choice: http://www.stonewall.org.uk/workplace/1477.asp

      Not really the work of hellbent Muslim terrorists is it?

      I think you are just stirring up a storm for no reason.
    • marvin
      Munir dont be total c*nt. I am starting to hope you get banned.

      My entire criticism was with the BBC and their incessant desire to be politically correct. Nothing to do with the man himself. I wished him luck. I also am an atheist, so I don't liken overly religious prats like yourself.

      You said "says the man who thinks its a disgrace a Muslim be given a job as BBC religion editor"

      My criticism and annoyance was what appears on the face of it a decision made by left-wing trendies who absolutely fucking hate anybody to the right of Ken Livingstone. I know what they are like, believe me. I may well have had a run-in with a type like that on the day in question... But...

      I also said

      "Let’s give the man a chance" and "He may well be the best man for the job"

      Surely an odd phrase for somebody who "thinks having a Muslim for the job is disgrace"???

      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4279#co...

      You piss everybody off with your immature lies and distortions, and quite frankly trolling.
    • Guest
      Marvin,

      don't talk bollocks, you were railing against the fact that it was a Muslim chosen for the position, and you may want to read the Samir Shah article again - it says about Shah:

      [Shah said that when recruiting new senior staff, managers should think about the diversity of their team.

      He added if he had a "magic wand", he would "make it incumbent on every major broadcaster and producer in the UK that, within five years, they need to demonstrate that their team of executives with real power over airtime or commissioning budgets come from a variety of different backgrounds, life experiences and ethnicity".]

      Shah's argument is that the Beeb is full of Oxbridge-educated white males, and putting brown faces on TV is a lazy way to make up for the lack of diversity amongst the Beeb executives. The appointment of a Muslim head of religious programming is exactly the kind of thing that Shah would be happy with - so that article does not even support you.
    • marvin
      Not at all, I was thought it was just typical BBC! This is all completely off topic. Why don't you go and make love with munir. He needs to get laid...And you by the looks of it,
    • Guest
      Nah, please go ahead Marvin - yours is clearly the greatest need... :)
    • munir
      marvin
      this was your quote:

      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4279#co...
      "How incredibly predictable the beeb would manage to find, from a tiny 2% of the population, a Muslim to head up the religious affairs post!

      Automatically any criticism about the beeb’s choice is bigotry – the man IS brown after all.

      Sometimes I think much of the management at the beeb thinks just like Sunny, and they have appointed a Muslim (what are the chances if taken at random?!!) out of spite to the Daily Mailers.

      Quelle surprise beeb!!!"



      Not at all, I was thought it was just typical BBC!


      They're just such a bunch of PC ass kissers to minorities aint they marv.. I mean dont you know theyve had two Jewish BBC 1 heads !How incredibly predictable the beeb would manage to find, from a tiny 0.5% of the population, a Jew to head up the controllers post!

      I understand the boys at HP got upset with Inayat Bunglawala for pointing this out, when he was 15.

      Still let’s give the man a chance they may well be the best men for the job.


      This is all completely off topic. Why don’t you go and make love with munir. He needs to get laid…And you by the looks of it,


      Because
      1) Adnan is a male
      2) The act of sodomy is vile and repulsive and completely forbidden in Islam (as shown on a previous thread)

      Your concern over Muslims sex lives is deeply appreciated - yet according to the population figures you and the panicky right wing keep quoting we appear to be "getting laid" rather too much for your liking.
      Make up your mind.

      But then again Marvin how could you know the above two points? You thought Patel was a Muslim surname.

      You seemed to labouring under the delusion that Sunny (sounds like Sunni!) was a Muslim

      You are one dumb kafir

      Yet more proof that athiests are dumb, like cattle
      :)
    • munir
      anobody

      Previously you claimed that the Council is an extremist outpost run by terrorist Muslim Labour councillors. The same councillors who have recently appointed an interim chief executive (Kevan Collins) who is gay


      The council also is trying to ban Hiz ut Tahris

      http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-...

      BilleracyDicky is a lier and a fantasist,

      terrorist Muslim Labour councillors.


      Though he may have a point as the Labour party has been involved in illegal terrorism, such as invading Iraq
    • munir
      An excellent response to the shower at HP's attack on Mehdi Hasan by fellow NS writer James Macintyre

      "Harry's Place – I have just seen this unspeakable smear campaign – "part 1" – against my colleague Mehdi Hasan at the New Statesman. You have just lowered yourself to the rankest form of fact-free, context-free, bent hatchet-job "blogging". I am one of many outsiders who is repulsed. You pose as a quasi-intellectual blog-site, and yet you operate with no rules of journalism. Let me, therefore, offer you some facts.
      I
      have known Mehdi Hasan for seven years. In that time I have been honoured to know an actively moderate Muslim; easily the most moderate Muslim I have met and among the most religious people I know, and that catagory includes senior members of the Anglican communion to which I belong.

      Mehdi Hasan does indeed have a double life: and it is the exact opposite to what your libelous bile presents. At the same time as being dismissed on neo-con sites like this as an "extremist" or fan of bin Laden, he in fact lectures his own community of London Shias of the need to integrate and be fully British. He does this on a weekly or monthly basis.

      Only a few months ago Tony McNulty MP – not known for his pro-extremist stances – praised Mehdi Hasan at a public meeting in the House of Commons. He said he was previously unaware that this kind of speaking – in which Muslims were told by a Muslim to inegrate and be British – took place within the community.

      This clip which you have seedily honed in on merely shows him sticking up for religion in the way that your heroes Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins denounce it and passionately defend atheism. As a Christian believer myself, I agree with Mehdi Hasan in his comments you seek to sensationalize – tell me then Harry's Place, does that make me one of your targets, or are your dangerous smears purely based on race?

      You have disgraced yourself, and it would be amusing were it not a calculated attempt to damage a man's reputation. I have never known a more open-minded person who speaks publicly on religion. Many a time have I heard Mehdi Hasan angrily denounce anti-semitism, racism, prejudice of any kind.

      If you seriously intend to run this series, by a doubtless fake "Channel 4 insider" – what have you got to hide, C4 Insider? Surely this is a great story if you are on safe ground? – then you had better be prepared for the consequences. Legalities aside, you threaten to shame your web site once and for all.

      I feel like I am posting on the BNP site, and it is on that level that you will place yourselves with this pathetic smear, based purely on the fact that Mehdi got the better of your contributors last week. If you are going to go after him, go after me too – as I agree with almost everything he says about the world's religions.

      Mehdi Hasan is a friend, a colleague, and someone who deserves the utmost praise for his amazing role as an educator and moderator of those in his own faith.

      It's time for you to decide: are you going to be a serious blogsite, or are you going to place yourselves in the same catagory as bnp.org.uk?

      Think about it."
    • Don
      You are one dumb kafir

      Yet more proof that athiests are dumb, like cattle




      Really? Would you care to expand on that?

      munir,
      In my opinion, and it's obviously subjective, you are far and away the most abusive abd offensive commenter (barring known trolls)here. Others contend, but you hold the crown.

      It is becoming seriously detrimental to the site, every thread is derailed. You can argue without that, so I suggest you rein back and start doing it.
    • Celtlord
      mohammed found a little hole,
      in the kaaba's dirty old stone
      in he stuck his little prick

      pounded away with his tiny pole
      hard he tried to make it groan
      with his tiny little stick
    • douglas clark
      Don,

      Moo!
    • douglas clark
      :-)
    • billericaydicky
      Anyone,

      You are running HDD here, that's Holocaust Denial Defence and because you have a very short span of attention I will explain it.

      What deniers like David Irving, Paul Rassinier and others do is to look at a mass of evidence and then select one or two bits of it which they will attack and then claim that the whole is a forgery.

      Let us look at your latest contribution. I have made very specific allegations against named individuals all of which I have backed up with evidence and references. What you have done, or so it seems as some of what you write is simply incomprehensible, is to take the fact that Stonewall has praised Tower Hamlets for being user friendy to Gays and that the acting Chief Executive is gay and that therefore proves that the Labour Party isn't under special measures, has had the right of chossing candidates taken away from them or any of the other things I have written about which you haven't challenged.

      The acting Chief Executive took over the post immediately the main one, Martin Smith was sacked by Lutfor Rahman. It was simple procedure. Also employment is a matter for the Personel Dpt and the cabinet have nothing to do with so if for instance the Libraries have a high proportion of Gay people working in them, and it certainly looks that way to me, that has got nothing to do with the leadership.

      There is also a great deal of two facedness to the whole thing.Let us go back to the leadership's favourite Immam Al-Sudais. Well we know what he thinks about the Jews, he has been convicted out of his own mouth.

      In June 2004 he led 10,000 people for inter-faith peace and harmony assisted by the Chief Rabbi who might have taken a different course of action had he known that Al-Sudais thought he was a monkey and a pig.

      I also understand that there is something in either the Koran or the Hadiths which approves of lying to Kufirs if it advances the faith. Perhaps someone could enlighten us.

      I have refered to Martin Smith being given the sack by Lutfor Rahman. While Smith has taken a six figure pay off and has a gagging clause in the deal some of the reasons for his getting the order of the boot are beginning to emerge from the very leaky ship Tower Hamlets.

      It seems he was given a list of people to sack including some prominent gays as well as being ordered to hand the freehold of the land the mosque is built on to be handed to the mosque management. As both were illegal he refused and got the boot.

      I have no idea of any other documentaries that John Ware has made, I only know of this one and I wouldlike his allegations to be dealt with. If you can't disprove them you accept them.

      It is also interesting that in spite of all of the Saudi millions at tye disposal of the mosquue and Al-Sudais that they haven't used their retained lawyers Peter Carter Ruck to sue anyone. Carter Ruck is of course one of the most successful and expensive libel firms in the country. Interesting that.

      They are also retained by Baroness Pola Uddin who is featured in today's Sunday Times as being involved in more corruption. Interesting article from the Insight team. I fully expect Inspector Knacker of The Yard to be knocking on her door in Wapping soon.
    • bambaataa

      They’re just such a bunch of PC ass kissers to minorities aint they marv.. I mean dont you know theyve had two Jewish BBC 1 heads !How incredibly predictable the beeb would manage to find, from a tiny 0.5% of the population, a Jew to head up the controllers post!

      I understand the boys at HP got upset with Inayat Bunglawala for pointing this out, when he was 15.


      munir, do you have a link to this specific story of HP getting upset with Inayat for pointing this out when he was 15.

      That sounds very interesting.
    • bambaataa
      munir

      Any chance you could tell us how you know that Inayat Bunglawala pointed out that the BBC had two Jewish BBC heads at the age of 15?

      There are can only be one of three answers:

      1) You knew Inayat Bunglawala at that age and he told you so.
      2) You are making it up.
      3) You are Inayat Bunglawala and you have just inadvertently blown your identity.

      Which one?
    • Don
      I understand the boys at HP got upset with Inayat Bunglawala for pointing this out, when he was 15.


      HP was set up in 2002. That would make Inayat currently 22-ish? Or are you saying HP discovered something a schoolboy had said and attacked it? Link? That needs to be backed up. On the face of it the claim is bizarre. But I await the evidence.
    • bambaataa
      Inayat Bunglawala is approaching his mid-40s. He would have been 15 some 30 years ago.


      I understand the boys at HP got upset with Inayat Bunglawala for pointing this out, when he was 15.


      That reads like a twofold claim:
      1) HP got upset with Bunglawala for pointing out that the BBC has had 2 Jewish controllers previously.
      2) Inayat Bunglawala already made this opinion known at the age of 15

      His opinions were not published when he was 15. How did "munir" know this?
    • Don
      Hell, if my opinions at 15 were widely known, I could kiss goodbye to a future with the LibDems.
    • Leon
      If my 15 year old opinions were widely known I'd probably be arrested under anti terrorism laws...
    • anobody
      billericaydicky,

      Comparing me to holocaust deniers is some desperate stuff.

      You have proved nothing. Just because you heard something somewhere does not make it evidence. When you make an allegation, reference it to a link or a document, or publish documents you have seen.

      Take this as my last comment on this issue, until you can corroborate what you have said.

      Allah knows best.
    • billericaydicky
      anobody is exactly what you are. You are als thick. I did not compare you to a Holocaust denier, and you are incapable of reading what is written. I said that you are using HDD and it is plain what that was.

      I have won the argument, you have retired wounded. Or rather, with your brain aching from trying to think too much!
    • munir
      If my 15 year old opinions were widely known I’d probably be writing for Spittoon or be studying with "Dr" Amanullah De Sondy
    • bambaataa
      Or even the media secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain.
    • munir
      bambataa


      munir

      Any chance you could tell us how you know that Inayat Bunglawala pointed out that the BBC had two Jewish BBC heads at the age of 15?

      There are can only be one of three answers:

      1) You knew Inayat Bunglawala at that age and he told you so.
      2) You are making it up.
      3) You are Inayat Bunglawala and you have just inadvertently blown your identity.


      Or
      4) The written word is not good at conveying exagerration. Perhaps I should have added some !!! for the pea-brained and conspiratorial loonies amongst us

      I know you think all Muslims are the same but
      I can confirm that I am not Inayat Bunglawala.
      Inayat posts on CIF and posts comments there under his real name. Why on earth would he come on another blog and start posting under another name ?

      Its even more dim since I said "got upset with Inayat Bunglawala for pointing this out, when he was 15." . Why would Inayat Bunglawala refer to himself in the third person? Is he a boxer?

      You remind me of the idiots on HP who whenever someone posts a pro-Muslim comment think it must be Bob Pitt

      Never mind. Whatever keeps you happy.
    • douglas clark
      munir,

      Could you at the very least provide a link to whatever it was Hatty's Place (yeah, I know, it's a spelling error, but it is quite funny) had to say about this?

      Frankly, it is a tad hard to understand how Inyat Bunglawala, who I actually quite like, managed to make it into op-ed at fifteen or so.

      Perhaps you could explain to your friendly and forgiving audience?

      The dearth of actual supporting evidence from you, so far, is a tad damning to your case.

      I'm sure you'll rally to it though!

      Pip! Pip!
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