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  • Technorati: graph / links

    Banning our resident racist scum?


    by Sunny on 10th July, 2009 at 3:21 pm    

    We’ve been running quite a few articles attacking the BNP in recent weeks, and as a means to give some members a chance to come back, we’ve been allowing racists/nazis etc to comment on PP without getting deleted.

    As you can probably see, racist scum remain as such and the dialogue doesn’t become as constructive as it should be. What do regular readers think? Time to end that policy and get rid of all racists now? Or let the experiment carry on for a bit?



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    195 Comments below   |   Add your own

    1. Mantis — on 10th July, 2009 at 3:24 pm  

      No matter how many times you flush the nazi scum away, they always come floating back up!

    2. Carmenego — on 10th July, 2009 at 3:25 pm  

      Actually, I’d rather you kept them in as I’m compiling a list of all the batshit things they say for my blog.

      If it’s any good, could I email my findings to you to post on PP? It’ll make my mum very proud :-D

    3. Vikrant — on 10th July, 2009 at 3:28 pm  

      Well I’d say keep the comments as long as they arent a open provocation for a flame war.

    4. David O'Keefe — on 10th July, 2009 at 3:36 pm  

      Have you discussed this issue with the rest of the management?

    5. Yahya Birt — on 10th July, 2009 at 3:36 pm  

      Keep your options open for now, but if it degenerates as Vikrant says, then pull the plug on the individual offenders. Plus you’ll need to ban ISPs and not just tags.

    6. Raja Sahib — on 10th July, 2009 at 3:39 pm  

      freedom of speech is freedom of speech.

      incitement to hatred is incitement to hatred.

    7. Oliver — on 10th July, 2009 at 3:45 pm  

      let them stay i say; if you send them away you’ll only exacerbate their feelings of powerlessness and worthlessness making them even worse white supremacists than they already are. they’re just crying out for love and a home poor things.

    8. Carmenego — on 10th July, 2009 at 3:46 pm  

      “Are you going to risk little Camilla getting gang raped by a bunch of black kids?”

      Contains racism and unpleasant imagery of a child being attacked.

      You are a sick little man, chavscum

    9. Bill Corr — on 10th July, 2009 at 3:51 pm  

      Isn’t Vikrant the name of an aircraft carrier? Who knew such warships could read and write?

      Being a race realist and being a ‘real’ racist are very different things, as anyone who visits the invaluable *American Renaissance* website knows very well.

      Race realists have a rough idea - sometimes a precise idea - of which selfish ethno-cultural groups want to grab all the decent cell space in British and French and Dutch and Belgian and Swedish and Finnish and Norwegian prisons and which ethno-cultural groups are so nobly undemanding [or such exquisitely cunning criminals] that they willingly let others take their ‘fair share’ of prison space.

      Ask any London taxi-driver what he reckons are his chances of being mugged by a Jew or a Chinese compared to his chances of being mugged by a XXXXXX or a XXXX.

      There’s more to follow, if more is permitted.

    10. bananabrain — on 10th July, 2009 at 3:54 pm  

      and yet munir is still here….

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    11. Ravi Naik — on 10th July, 2009 at 4:09 pm  

      Being a race realist and being a ‘real’ racist are very different things

      No, they are not. You are just trying to introduce a politically correct term for ‘racist’.

    12. Ravi Naik — on 10th July, 2009 at 4:14 pm  

      They should not be banned, unless they behave like savages and use foul language. We should give them a chance to rationalise their racism and bigotry, which until now has been reduced to the absurd.

    13. Leon — on 10th July, 2009 at 4:18 pm  

      freedom of speech is freedom of speech.

      Banning them from here wouldn’t curtail their fos. They have the whole Internet to use to make themselves heard…

    14. Bill Corr — on 10th July, 2009 at 4:22 pm  

      Ravi Naik is not thinking clearly or perhaps making no effort to express himself well.

      Surely being a ‘racist’ means an obsession with skin colour to the exclusion of all other considerations, such as social behaviour, welfare dependency and criminality.

      [The American social scientists and criminologists, bless them, use the genteel term 'social pathologies,' which ought to be adopted more widely.]

      So far as I am aware, Hindus and Chinese are statistically under-represented in the U.K. prison system. My rough and quite unsupported guess is that Albanians are over-represented.

      In the U.S.A., Japanese-Americans have the highest rate of high school graduation and the lowest rate of incarceration.

      Although Muslims are statistically THREE TIMES over-represented in the U.K. prison population, my guess would be that Sufis and the ‘heretical’ Ahmadiyyas are barely represented at all [an example of the 'subset with no members.']

    15. chavscum — on 10th July, 2009 at 4:24 pm  

      The problem with you lefties is that you fake outrage and pretend you are the Mary Whitehouse of political correctness. You do this to dismiss any contrary opinions to your own indoctrinated dogma. It’s a safety tactic and sheer laziness. You don’t want to consider that your rhetoric may be built on dodgy principles, so its safer to interpret opposing opinions to the extreme. Therefore, anyone who criticises mass immigration or failed multi-cultural policies becomes a racist/xenophobe/anti-immigrant, etc.

      Its easy for me to win debates with you by using earthy language or tempting you with realist opinions. Most of you will bite the bate instantly and I’ll just reel you in, which proves 1) your views are ill-conceived, 2) you are lazy, 3) you are blinded by your own prejudice.

      Anyone with an ounce of intelligence will see that comment is an attempt to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the mostly white middle-class left in their self-righteous words on mass immigration and multi-culturalism and their contrary actions. Do as I say, not as I do is endemic in Socialism/Liberalism or whatever ‘ism you choose to attach yourselves to.

      You could learn something from me if you were truly liberal. Banning me would actually be beneficial as my work application would improve. Although I suppose the long term problem is I’m not stimulated enough at work. Maybe a career change is required. I could try politics.

    16. dashenka — on 10th July, 2009 at 4:25 pm  

      12 and you Ravi are just trying to label the truth as racism.

      truth can not be racism, truth is truth.

      should taxi-driver ingnore his experience just not to be called racists? I would not, I prefer be called alive racist, than dead tolerant politically correct person.

      is it bad?)))

      bye the way, in course if getting rid of racist scum here I would recommend to ban most article-writers who tend to find racosm ONLY IN WHITE PEOPLE. somehow they see it only there

    17. Don — on 10th July, 2009 at 4:29 pm  

      Getting a bit bored actually. No need to ban unless they get abusive, but I think we have seen their full repertoire.

      I think your policy of only allowing them on BNP related threads is reasonable.

    18. halima — on 10th July, 2009 at 4:29 pm  

      We erase and delete anything harmful and offensive so why wouldn’t we do the same with BNP offense?

      It actually puts me off reading posts where i see BNP contributers, it’s like they are here for a purpose and it isn’t to be like-minded and to debate so why play along? If they met you in a dark ally they wouldn’t talk to you - they’d give you a good kick-in and don’t be fooled by the nice white shirt and tie.

      I also don’t see the point of intelligent people wasting their time to get hate-mongers to change their mind - time is money.

    19. Carmenego — on 10th July, 2009 at 4:34 pm  

      Oh chavscum, you cavernous bucket.

      Multi-culturalism *is* winning, otherwise forums like this wouldn’t exist, and people from different backgrounds wouldn’t be able to live/work/blog/love/have children together in the UK, as many quite happily do.

      It’s kinda sweet that you think you’re winning, because all your posts seem to imply that you’ve lost already…

      Have a great weekend everyone! I’m off to a GIG, where there’ll be alcohol and women in short skirts and men with spiky hair. I’m WELL integrated, I am ;-)

    20. Bill Corr — on 10th July, 2009 at 5:01 pm  

      If Halima had spent an hour attempting to read the ghastly illiterate reader-contributed rubbish to be seen on the actual BNP website, she’d hardly wonder if people who are 51%-100% in sympathy with some, all or most of the BNP’s stated aims choose to post elsewhere.

      Are readers here familiar with Theodore Dalrymple a.k.a. Anthony Daniels?

      His writings are to be found in City Journal, for example:

      http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_2_when_islam.html

    21. 1mongrel — on 10th July, 2009 at 5:12 pm  

      Speaking as someone who was banned from CIF simply for posting ONS Stats on a thread I’m not surprised at this reaction. Ban away if you like. Multikultiism depends on suppression of truth and distorted media for its survival. I’ve seen no bad language or petty insults from the right on here but plenty from the left. BTW Sonny, surely “Dialogue” requires more than 1 POV. Anyway, if your all happy to spend your time on here congratulating each other on your shared rightonness then who am I to spoil the party? It’s your blog in the end.

    22. 5cc — on 10th July, 2009 at 5:14 pm  

      Let them stay, unless they make comment threads in general degenerate into a quagmire of racist groaning.

      The odd racist comment by BNP supporters only helps show the shallowness of their claims to have reformed, and a lot of the other stuff shows how some of the other stuff they spout isn’t based in reality.

      Ban people if they become persistently offensive or are clearly deliberately trolling, but otherwise let them incriminate themselves as much as they like.

    23. damon — on 10th July, 2009 at 5:33 pm  

      I think it’s all a bit of a waste of time (having hardcore racists on the site) as it seems that discussion just stops. Nobody is going to discuss what really should be done about Africa’s migrants crossing the seas and the Sahara desert to try and make their way (gatecrash?) into Europe.
      Or to discuss some of the issues of ‘ghettoisation’ that occur in poor neighbourhoods, and why it’s understandable that sections of the society might balk at their kids school becoming so diverse that the parents might have trouble understanding how and why these changes occur.
      I think that while BNP types are on the site, not much of use will be said, as people get defensive.

    24. Bill Corr — on 10th July, 2009 at 5:37 pm  

      As a newcomer, I have to say that the level of infantile personal abuse on this site is far too high but not as unpleasant as elsewhere. Compared to some places, it is hardly abuse at all.

      What I find astonishing and almost incomprehensible is the way in which anyone who fails to squeal in totally delighted agreement with the multiculti claptrap of present-day Britain - which has now hardened into dogma - is howled at as a fascist, Nazi, BNP-adherent and worse.

      Anyway, at #22 above, I give a link to a very fine and perceptive article by an excellent writer.

      Those who find Dalrymple’s writings of interest might care to peruse the offerings by the same author on Amazon.

      GIRLS SCREAMING ALOUD
      On another matter altogether, have any of you followed the absurdities of the *Girls [Scream] Aloud* trial and the conclusions to be drawn from it?

      Here is the story [and please DO feel free to pass this along if you so choose] in brief:

      -1- There is a pop group called Girls Aloud.

      -2- Darryn Walker, a British civil servant, writes a hideous abduction-torture-murder fantasy - called Girls [Scream] Aloud - about them and posts it pseudonymously - as blakesinclair69@yahoo.co.uk - on the ‘net at an American site called *asstr stories* in the section called Just Putrid Stories.

      -3- Some Internet Watch busybodies and smut-haters find the story and somehow track down the aforesaid civil servant in Geordiestan, who is thereupon arrested - and promptly fired from his job.

      -4- A prosecution is brought which subsequently collapses when it is proved that no dizzy kid could possibly find the story by accident.

      As a Libertarian, I find this to be a victory for liberty, as the website The Register rightly so regards it, but the hobby-writer is now poorer and now a figure of notoriety locally.

      Will he ever get his civil service job back?

      Any comments?

    25. marvin — on 10th July, 2009 at 5:41 pm  

      I am wandering about the possible effect of debate on the more extremist types, debate with them long enough, they become familiar with us, some will eventually start to moderate their views. A worthy cause. Still, I’d agree they should probably be limited to certain posts that pertain to the BNP etc.

    26. Amrit — on 10th July, 2009 at 5:45 pm  

      I second what 5cc says. I think personally that we need to pay attention to them less (because then they make threads all about them and their imaginary victimisation), and just watch them like hawks. Carmenego seems to be on that already!

      Anyone else interested in BNP-troll bingo? I have been sorely tempted to make a bingo card for a while now, but I’d need the help of others here :-D . The idea is based on this, which always makes me laugh out loud:

      http://viv.id.au/blog/20080218.1460/antifeminist-bingo-2/

    27. Amrit — on 10th July, 2009 at 5:47 pm  

      *points upwards at BC’s post* Wow, some of our new arrivals really aren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer, are they?

    28. davebones — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:00 pm  

      You know what I think by now. If we aren’t shooting each other- lets talk. Across the board. Everyone.

      Its up to you what you do with your forum and I can understand why you might want to close the door but I think the way you have decided to go with this is really interesting. You challenged the BNP to discuss policy in detail, some of them are here doing that.

      I haven’t seen anything overly abusive, but I have quite a strange threshold and I am a honky anyway so maybe it makes less of a difference? Don’t know. Up to you.

    29. chairwoman — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:05 pm  

      Leave them.

      They concentrate our collective minds.

    30. Don — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:06 pm  

      Bill,

      @26
      Yeah, I’ll comment. Mr Walker is clearly a very sick puppy. His sickness went public and now those who know him look at him with different eyes. Why wouldn’t they? He thought that pseudonymously = anonymously. That was a mistake.

      Should he have lost his job? Maybe not, although having an employee who so creeps out the rest of the staff that they don’t want to be in the same room is a problem which apparently can be solved by getting rid of the creep. Who, after all, brought it on himself. From an employers point of view it’s a pragmatic solution if the law allows it.

      What law was he supposed to have broken? I have De Sade, Genet and Burroughs on my shelf, should I worry?

      Are you suggesting that sick rape/torture/murder fantasies are analagous to the BNP mind-set? Interesting and probably valid comparison.

    31. davebones — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:06 pm  

      I don’t get what chavscum says about white lefties being self righteous either. I just get on with people. Britain, London, is a cool thing. I understand that some people are integrationally challenged because of upbringing. I meet people like that and advise them to have a good look around the world. Put yourself in another culture for a while. The world is a huge infinity of beautiful things places and people. There is a diversity. It makes me happy.

      There have been failures in integration but why dwell on them? It will just make you angry. It is better to deal with these things like adults. We aren’t dogs. We don’t need to bark at each other. Being human is a beautiful thing which we should celebrate in its diversity. we are all going to die one day. we are here but for a second mate. Have a look about :-)

    32. Miriam Binder — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:15 pm  

      @ Damon #24 … that has always been the problem though by and large. There is no real discussion when you have to spend most of your time responding to infantile whinging. However, refusing entry is merely adding fuel to their pathetic little watchfires.

      The thing is, if you really want to discuss it, you should just put the ramblings on ignore and post around them rather then in response to them.

      Free speech does not mean that anyone is required to listen, it means anyone can sound off - with the proviso of course that everyone is personally accountable for those things they choose to say.

    33. zak — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:17 pm  

      Sunny: when did stupidity become a point of view?

    34. Bill Corr — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:19 pm  

      Don -
      GIRLS SCREAMING ALOUD
      The silly chap’s pseudonymous status was an obvious error, as was giving a very obvious *yahoo.co.uk* address.

      MORAL:
      When writing hideous sado-masochistic filth, always leave a false trail leading to - er - a Gafcon bishop or someone like Richard Littlejohn.

      ON RUDENESS ON THE BLOGOSPHERE:
      Amrit-
      The issue of personal and infantile abuse needs to addressed honestly. Nobody on this site would accuse YOU of not having an agreeable ‘wheat complexion’ or excreting beside a railway line or starting the day with a refreshing glass of your own urine, I hope.

    35. davebones — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:27 pm  

      Does that sound self righteous? What does self righteous mean? That you think you are right?

    36. Vikrant — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:37 pm  

      Isn’t Vikrant the name of an aircraft carrier? Who knew such warships could read and write?

      Oh boy did you google that? Not exactly a light bulb are we? Us Pakis’ have weird names innit?

    37. MaidMarian — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:37 pm  

      Broadly speaking I err on the side of open speech.

      But Sunny, you might want to dwell on the idea that so many come on here because there have been far too many articles on the subject in the few weeks.

      I say this with the best will in the world - you’ve made your point and PP is suffering. I’m sure others will disagree.

    38. Vikrant — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:47 pm  

      Amrit-
      The issue of personal and infantile abuse needs to addressed honestly. Nobody on this site would accuse YOU of not having an agreeable ‘wheat complexion’ or excreting beside a railway line or starting the day with a refreshing glass of your own urine, I hope.

      Just like nobody on this website would accuse you of not being an inbred council estate wanker. I wonder what took you BNP fellers to troll forums like these. I’ve been running into your lot from right-wing American blogs to PP! Honestly, tell me… did you guys just discover internet can be used for other purposes than wanking off to pornography?

    39. Nina37 — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:53 pm  

      If you feel certain posters are detracting from any sort of logical discussion by all means…

      I’ve experienced this on a few websites - they’re like a dog with a bone and just hurl insults without properly engaging.

      In addition; they do seem to spend an impressive amount of time online baiting 24/7 - maybe banning them would be for their own good? They might go for a walk or pick up a book?

    40. Amrit — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:57 pm  

      Bill Corr -

      What on earth are you talking about?! I haven’t ever met anyone with a ‘wheat’ complexion, given that humans tend to be non-cereal based…

      Nice try with the silencing techniques, but I don’t think they’re going to work.

      Man, being a feminist in the age of the Net ROCKS!

    41. chairwoman — on 10th July, 2009 at 6:58 pm  

      “They might go for a walk or pick up a book?”

      A quick yomp through Poland, and then curl up with a well thumbed copy of Mein Kampf?

    42. Nina37 — on 10th July, 2009 at 7:02 pm  

      @chairwoman

      Genius :)

    43. Bill Corr — on 10th July, 2009 at 7:38 pm  

      It was interesting to read what flipside posted; didn’t Woolas have to endure a storm of foully ill-mannered abuse in consequence or his raising a semi-taboo subject?

      Everyone knows that cross-cousin marriage is a jolly bad idea but, as Ann Cryer MP said, it’s a matter of keeping things within an extended family rather than romping off and marrying a Nip or someone from the typing pool.

      Here’s a puzzler: how and why on earth is it considered insulting to say that someone is from a council estate or - in the U.S.A. - from a trailer park? Evelyn Waugh made the telling point that every Irish writer of the nineteenth century represented himself as either a gentleman of ancient family or a genius from a turf cabin.

      Cross-Cultural note: For reasons too depressing to need explaining, those advertising their daughters in the ‘Matrimonials’ sections of Indian and Expatriate-Indian newspapers will frequently stress the fact that the lady on offer possesses a ‘wheat complexion’ rather than being, shall we say, rather darker. If one has the opportunity to watch Indian movies, as most people do these days, one is well aware that the heroine, in particular, could easily be mistaken for a south European or a Syrian.

      There’s even a brand of soap and skin cleanser called ‘Fair and Lovely.’ This is a popular brand in Penang and Sarawak for no discernable reason.

    44. Bill Corr — on 10th July, 2009 at 7:58 pm  

      STOP PRESS:
      Over on Harry’s Place David T. tells us that one of David Cameron’s great-great-grandfather was a Jewish immigrant who became a remarkably successful businessman, adding that Cameron is descended from a Jewish scholar of renown.

      REMINDER:
      We have four grandparents and eight great-grandparents and sixteen great-grandparents. Those interested can check out what percentage of the Earl of Home’s genes are derived in direct line from the first Earl.

      Which is one excellent reason why the BNP should clam up on the subject of skin colour and concentrate on the issue of social pathologies. Enough about the BNP.

    45. billericaydicky — on 10th July, 2009 at 8:08 pm  

      It is best to let them stay. Non make a good argument. However the anti fascist movement is less than happy with the “debates”.

      If you read Nick Lowles’s latest comments on Searchlight it is of course clear that the whole “No platform” issue is changing. We cannot keep them off the airwaves simply because of the publicity that they now have and you will see that apart from pointing out their lack of intellect I have not engaged in dialogue with them.

      It is important to recognise the difference.

    46. Vikrant — on 10th July, 2009 at 9:31 pm  

      Cross-Cultural note: For reasons too depressing to need explaining, those advertising their daughters in the ‘Matrimonials’ sections of Indian and Expatriate-Indian newspapers will frequently stress the fact that the lady on offer possesses a ‘wheat complexion’ rather than being, shall we say, rather darker. If one has the opportunity to watch Indian movies, as most people do these days, one is well aware that the heroine, in particular, could easily be mistaken for a south European or a Syrian.

      There’s even a brand of soap and skin cleanser called ‘Fair and Lovely.’ This is a popular brand in Penang and Sarawak for no discernable reason.

      How do repungant India notions of skin colour justify your racism anyhow?

    47. 1mongrel — on 10th July, 2009 at 9:35 pm  

      Vikrant (46)

      “How do repungant India notions of skin colour justify your racism anyhow?”

      They merely explain that to someone with jaundice the whole world appears to be yellow (Indian Version) or as we say in The West “Projection”.

    48. Vikrant — on 10th July, 2009 at 9:46 pm  

      They merely explain that to someone with jaundice the whole world appears to be yellow (Indian Version) or as we say in The West “Projection”.

      Do you realise that no matter how you parse that statement, it barely makes sense. Pouting random psychological jargon hardly makes you sound intellectual mate. Or are you claiming that Indians are projecting their racism on you “oh-so-poor-victimised-indigenous-lads”?

    49. 1mongrel — on 10th July, 2009 at 10:07 pm  

      Vikram (47) Ask your mum, she’ll know what I mean. Some time ago The BBC conducted a street survey on The Euro, when an elderly gentlemen expressed some doubts he was accused of “Racism”. Similarly Tony Blair stood up in Parliament and made the same accusation against an elderly woman for daring to complain of her NHS treatment. Fraid its meaningless now and yes, those that see it everywhere and use it to avoid discussion are projecting their own caste/religious prejudices into a self hating white liberal elite only too willing to bend over and take it.

    50. Vikrant — on 10th July, 2009 at 10:28 pm  

      Vikram (47) Ask your mum, she’ll know what I mean.

      Bugger off… You don’t know my personal circumstances at all. Will suffice to say my parents comes from two radically different “caste” and linguistic groups in India.

      white liberal elite only too willing to bend over and take it.

      As some who losely supported Hindu nationalists at one point, I realise how closely all xenophobic ideologies follow the victimisation narrative. It usually goes along the lines of “media controlling liberal elite” have sold the populance to the demonised other (immigrants in BNP’s case or Muslims as in the case of RSS et al.)…

    51. Adnan — on 10th July, 2009 at 10:34 pm  

      “As some who losely supported Hindu nationalists at one point, I realise how closely all xenophobic ideologies follow the victimisation narrative.”

      That’s a breath of fresh air. Good on you Vikrant.

    52. munir — on 10th July, 2009 at 10:46 pm  

      “and yet munir is still here….

      b’shalom

      bananabrain”

      poor banana brain - still upset because I called him what he called Muslims ” a bearded inbred”

    53. inders — on 10th July, 2009 at 11:15 pm  

      48. Proof. Links. Sources.

    54. Sunny — on 10th July, 2009 at 11:57 pm  

      into a self hating white liberal elite only too willing to bend over and take it.

      Why do I get the feeling this applies to you more than others?

    55. Bill Corr — on 11th July, 2009 at 2:44 am  

      How about a distinct thread reserved purely for personal abuse?

      That way the other threads could be used as forums [forae?] for discussion. Even members of the rat-eater caste could contribute without fear of enduring meaningless vituperation and endless whataboutery.

    56. Boyo — on 11th July, 2009 at 7:14 am  

      If that include anti-semites, then I’m with you. But let’s face it, your definition of racism is pretty flexible.

    57. Rumbold — on 11th July, 2009 at 8:04 am  

      As others have said, let us argue with them if they are polite, ignore them if they are rude, and delete them if they are abusive.

    58. Newbie — on 11th July, 2009 at 8:13 am  

      An extract from: “About us”

      “We have an Asian (meaning South Asia) tinge to our stories as some of us are of that background, but our politics are broad and progressive”.

      I know, that most of you who contribute regularly/run PP, are well-meaning people. However, as ‘progressive’ types, you are also a very, very, dangerous creed.

      Both Right, and Centre-minded people have a duty to society in the same way you feel you do, to express and ultimately address, what is perceived by both camps as an imbalance that needs to be addressed.

      Why do I call you dangerous? Well, they say a picture tells a thousand words. Therefore, I’ll express my feelings on this with a few well chosen short videos.

      1). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLULJ_QFIFM

      2). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq8wvG7p1c4

      3). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZDo4xbS0r4

      4). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTvSuu-x9mQ

      5). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ing95CynJg&feature=related

      So, there you go. The BNP wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for deluded-liberals who promote communism without even realising they’re doing it.

      Stalin killed at least 20 million innocent hard working people including Jews. What progressives are doing with their ‘I support liberalism’ stance, will create a society that is enslaved by Cultural Marxism.

      For the good of humanity, you must be countermanded.

    59. 1mongrel — on 11th July, 2009 at 8:30 am  

      Vikram (49)

      “Bugger off… You don’t know my personal circumstances at all. Will suffice to say my parents comes from two radically different “caste” and linguistic groups in India.”

      Then surely one of them will recognize this translation of an old Hindi proverb.

    60. 1mongrel — on 11th July, 2009 at 8:31 am  

      Sunny (53)

      Projection?

    61. 1mongrel — on 11th July, 2009 at 8:41 am  

      Inders (52)

      Try reading a newspaper occasionally.

    62. inders — on 11th July, 2009 at 9:22 am  

      A newspaper other then the Daily Mail ? Or just the Daily Mail ?

    63. 1mongrel — on 11th July, 2009 at 10:27 am  

      Inders (62)

      How about this, ethically sound enough for you? Surely you don’t expect links for every bit of news that is common knowledge? (Still, I suppose that enables you to decry the source rather than answer the point).

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2002/jan/27/conservatives.health

      Incidentally, The Grauniad tops the list for printing apologies, it’s their accuracy we should doubt rather than any of the other MSM.

    64. chairwoman — on 11th July, 2009 at 10:51 am  

      newbie - How much does this guy Savage pay you? Or are you he?

    65. 5cc — on 11th July, 2009 at 11:19 am  

      “Incidentally, The Grauniad tops the list for printing apologies, it’s their accuracy we should doubt rather than any of the other MSM.”

      The Guardian prints apologies without being forced to by the PCC, unlike the other papers.

      Maybe that’s a reason for trusting the Graun’s honesty a bit more.

    66. Newbie — on 11th July, 2009 at 11:32 am  

      Number 64. By: chairwoman.

      No. I am someone who is attempting to upen closed minds.

      6). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZbhQm-c-PQ

      7). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMfZ7czIIWY

      8). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhJkOz3afFY&feature=related

    67. 1mongrel — on 11th July, 2009 at 11:38 am  

      5cc(65).

      Either that or they realize that the canard on page 1 will be remembered long after the apology on page 33 is forgotten. (If it was ever read in the first place).

    68. persephone — on 11th July, 2009 at 12:29 pm  

      I say leave them on.

      Engage with those who have something concrete to say and ignore those who are being racist. Keep the latter’s comments on display as it shows their true (racist) colours and so debunks the facade of being dressed up as ‘legitimate concerns’

    69. douglas clark — on 11th July, 2009 at 12:44 pm  

      I agree with Rumbold @ 57,

      That should be the rules for anyone commenting here.

    70. 5cc — on 11th July, 2009 at 1:21 pm  

      1mongrel @66

      Either that or they realize that the canard on page 1 will be remembered long after the apology on page 33 is forgotten. (If it was ever read in the first place).

      That’s way more likely to happen when papers bury an apology on a random, easily missed page rather than in an easy to find ‘Corrections and Clarifications’ column.

      Guess which one of those the Guardian does, and which one the tabloids do.

      And let’s not forget, voluntarily publishing corrections is still far better than avoiding publishing them at all unless compelled to by the PCC.

    71. damon — on 11th July, 2009 at 1:57 pm  

      While I have no sympathy for the views of BNP types, I do dispare sometimes at the gulf of incomprehension that exists between that section of a population that thinks like that (which if you take out the most extreme element of it, isn’t so far from Daily Mail/Sun newspaper ”normality”), and the anti-racist left.

      In fact I would go as far as to say that it’s mainstream views of some people on this blog that are further removed from what would be seen as everyday opinions, than some of the views put foreward by our ”our racist scum”.
      It saddens me that that’s the case, as I wish people more people were closer to the politics of this website and ‘Liberal Democracy’ - but it seems that’s just not how it is.
      I think the right get more extreme because they feel their ”common sense aproach” is shunned so hard and called ”fascist” etc.

      Btw, I only noticed these ‘letters’ in that online magazine ‘Spiked’ this morning.
      About the Roma gypsies who had been hounded out of their houses in Belfast last month.
      Now even if you really don’t like those Spiked people, they without doubt have always been ardent anti-racists …. so I wondered, why did they publish these three letters about the Roma in Belfast?
      http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/letters/7090/

      The views that are given an airing in those three letters would be dismissed as Daily Mail rantings (or worse) if they were made on this forum by people of a ”dubious” background … wouldn’t they?

      My point is, that I think that some of the left help grow extremism by being so intransigent to people who take a different view.
      Even though I have only seen a few posts by him, Ger Francis (of Respect) gave me the impression he would be very quick with the denunciations of people whose views he didn’t agree with.

    72. damon — on 11th July, 2009 at 1:57 pm  

      While I have no sympathy for the views of BNP types, I do dispare sometimes at the gulf of incomprehension that exists between that section of a population that thinks like that (which if you take out the most extreme element of it, isn’t so far from Daily Mail/Sun newspaper ”normality”), and the anti-racist left.

      In fact I would go as far as to say that it’s mainstream views of some people on this blog that are further removed from what would be seen as everyday opinions, than some of the views put foreward by our ”our racist scum”.
      It saddens me that that’s the case, as I wish people more people were closer to the politics of this website and ‘Liberal Democracy’ - but it seems that’s just not how it is.
      I think the right get more extreme because they feel their ”common sense aproach” is shunned so hard and called ”fascist” etc.

      Btw, I only noticed these ‘letters’ in that online magazine ‘Spiked’ this morning.
      About the Roma gypsies who had been hounded out of their houses in Belfast last month.
      Now even if you really don’t like those Spiked people, they without doubt have always been ardent anti-racists …. so I wondered, why did they publish these three letters about the Roma in Belfast?
      http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/letters/7090/

      The views that are given an airing in those three letters would be dismissed as Daily Mail rantings (or worse) if they were made on this forum by people of a ”dubious” background … wouldn’t they?

      My point is, that I think that some of the left help grow extremism by being so intransigent to people who take a different view.
      Even though I have only seen a few posts by him, Ger Francis (of Respect) gave me the impression he would be very quick with the denunciations of people whose views he didn’t agree with.

    73. Sunny — on 11th July, 2009 at 2:18 pm  

      My point is, that I think that some of the left help grow extremism by being so intransigent to people who take a different view.

      There’s a few responses:

      1) How do a bunch of nutjobs like 1mongrel and chavscum etc represent broader British opinion? There’s little evidence they do.

      2) I’m closer to British opinion on most issues but why in the world should I constantly try and understand and agree with a bunch of racist nutjobs who would rather have me deported the minute they get the opportunity.

      There may be a divide in opinion. So what? That’s politics for you. There’s more divide in the United States between the left and the right.

    74. marvin — on 11th July, 2009 at 2:37 pm  

      #70 Give that man a medal!

      Spot on comment Damon.

      I think that some of the left help grow extremism by being so intransigent to people who take a different view

      I have felt myself almost pushed to rebel against some of the more screechy left-wing debate. Some people who comment here obviously mean well, but seem so far removed from majority normal views that it’s just silly and definitely counter-productive.

      I absolutely guarantee you that equating Hitler’s extermination of the Jews with having frivolous plastic bag usage absolutely has a negative effect and makes people less likely to make positive behaviour changes with regards to the environment, for one example.

      Reading some of the naive or hysterical comments here almost made me want to take my fridge outside and smash it up to release those HCFC’s in to the atmos, youtube it, then post a link to it on here. I didn’t because im not a fucking mental, but it’s the thought that counts!

    75. Sunny — on 11th July, 2009 at 2:39 pm  

      I have felt myself almost pushed to rebel against some of the more screechy left-wing debate. Some people who comment here obviously mean well, but seem so far removed from majority normal views that it’s just silly and definitely counter-productive.

      Have you ever considered the fact that racism and bigotry, like the type displayed here by our new arrivals, also makes lefties and especially ethnic minorities become more defensive and not give a shit about public opinion?

    76. marvin — on 11th July, 2009 at 3:11 pm  

      Yes I do consider this Sunny. I think everyone with the passion for politics has the same instinct when they feel provoked. I guess I am holding the left up to a higher standard, cos they bloody well keep telling me that they are the higher standard :P

      I just think that people of the left think their point of view is inherently enlightened and well above the usual talking points of the common man. That’s their pejorative; but if they’re really so enlightened, I can’t help but ask, why do they seem virtually incapable of acknowledging that across the bough the people do make at least some valid points.

      Immigration from the African continent has dramatically increased the number of people with HIV in London. Yet why was there a campaign warning about the risk of HIV infection not too long ago of pictures of white heterosexual chavs from the home counties?!

      In some ways, ‘antiracism’ of the left has created a culture of fear, and inevitably public sector workers will be scared shitless of the accusations of racism. Yes they may be a bit thick, in my view, if they don’t mention race at all through fear of the ultimate sin of racism. But still…

      In terms of the NHS, a colour blind approach results in fatal negligence. The previously mentioned HIV campaign may have actually reduced infection rates had it actually been targeted at the at risk groups.

      The lefts’ favourite phrase of derision, political correctness gone mad, highlights the issue. Instead of genuinely trying to tackle political correctness that has counter productive effects, they just attack the messengers as a bit thick! Not such an enlightened approach after all if they can’t agree or acknowledge genuine problems with those they generally disagree with!!

      But yes, I do get it, and understand we’re all human and sometimes our behaviours have the opposite desired effect through our angry retorts to the unjust.

    77. Rob — on 11th July, 2009 at 3:17 pm  

      Depends what you mean by constructive.

      If you are having a hissy fit because someone has torn your argument to shreds then it would be in keeping with leftist tradition to ban the said person.

      On the other hand, anyone that is here just to throw insults should be warned, then banned.

      Which is it?

    78. Sunny — on 11th July, 2009 at 4:35 pm  

      I just think that people of the left think their point of view is inherently enlightened

      And the right don’t?? Marvin you’ve been reading this blog for years. Are you telling me I’ve never accepted that sometimes the right has a valid viewpoint on certain issues? You think I’ve never accepted that sometimes political correctness has gone too far? Have I never criticised Ken Livingstone or Lee Jasper?

      It’s easy to paint everyone simplistically isn’t it?

      And yet, how many times do people on the right acknowledge and do something about racism? When do they accept that minorities also have rights to live their lives how they want to?

    79. damon — on 11th July, 2009 at 4:44 pm  

      To Sunny @ 73.
      I think those kinds of people you mentioned in your point number one were (unfortunately) shown to be somewhat mainstream in that three part Rageh Omaar documentary last year.
      http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/immigration+the+inconvenient+truth/1933847

    80. Sunny — on 11th July, 2009 at 4:52 pm  

      If immigration was a such a burning issue for everyone then surely Michael ‘are you thinking what we’re thinking?’ Howard would have been elected last time around.

    81. Colin Brown — on 11th July, 2009 at 5:09 pm  

      Id decade after decade opposing opinions cannot be aired, speaking to your fellow man is like talking to a Martian.

    82. Vikrant — on 11th July, 2009 at 5:13 pm  

      I’d agree with damon and marvin, many of the views are quite mainstream, especially outside the home counties. Left is doing itself a lot of harm by completely refusing to acknowledge these views. I think many people *do resent* stuff like the fact that CRE has been used to haul a lot of people on flimsiest of charges of racism. Our multicultural model, which largely developed as a reaction to the likes of Enoch Powell and National Front tends to exclude the majority and there is a growing sense that British identity has been diluted by the liberal elite enforced multi-culturism and that the working class people of the country were never consulted about this.
      I’m not saying that people are entirely justified in feeling this way, but this is what many of them have begun to feel nevertheless.

      The ceaseless name calling on both sides impedes any serious debate on immigration. People who would like to see an end to all immigration or reduced immigration aren’t necessarily racists. They are well… being typical humans with their tribal possessiveness over a land. Even if majority of British people aren’t voting BNP doesn’t mean that they subscribe to establishment’s views on immigration (to draw an analog most Hindus in India will express casual disdain and xenophobia against Muslims in private but won’t vote the Hindu nationalists to power). The first step towards winning this segment of the population over ofcourse is acknowledging their views.

    83. Vikrant — on 11th July, 2009 at 5:17 pm  

      If immigration was a such a burning issue for everyone then surely Michael ‘are you thinking what we’re thinking?’ Howard would have been elected last time around.

      This hardly translates to a popular support for immigration. Majority opinion imho is somewhere between “don’t care” and “disdain”.

    84. damon — on 11th July, 2009 at 5:26 pm  

      Rageh Omaar (I said a week ago) may have been irresponsible to make such a prime time (early evening) documentary.
      I’m sure it brought up issues for racists to raise.
      That YouGov survey for example.
      http://www.channel4.com/news/media/immigration/immigration_survey.pdf

      This post and my last one were meant to be one post, but I hit the wrong button - but anyway …. point number 2 of Sunny’s post @ 73 is harder.

      Why should you give a care to what people who would have you deported say?

      They’d say the same thing to part of my extended family too (non-white inlaws and partners).
      Of course tell them what you think of them, but even just last night, I was driving through London last night (for work in a truck) and at half past eleven I went past Brockwell Park headig towards Brixton, then Stockwell, then over the river into the West End.
      At Brockwell Park (at Hearn Hill), it was a lovely night. People were standing ouside pubs, and outside clubs, and eating inside resturants.
      I couldn’t help but notice the racial segregation in Friday night socialising practicices between black and white.
      (And of course class comes into this too.).
      I notice things like this on a weekly basis, and I’m sure the racists going about their business notice all these small kind of things too.
      They are just so blunt and symplistic about what they see. I struggle to make sense of these things.
      And I think it should be recognised as a struggle … like Sunny just did in post number 78 (or that’s the way I read it anyways).

      The thing about Michael Howard and the popularity or otherwise of raising race/immigration issues in British politics (I think) could be a whole discussion in itself.
      Just raising theissue is an extremely frought thing to do in our current climate.
      ”Even” UKIP have alegations of racism thrown against them. (And I think they probably have underlying racist sentiment running through the party, but it’s not overt enough to call it as such I think).

    85. Scots Tiger — on 11th July, 2009 at 5:42 pm  

      Vikrant has identified the issue exactly.

      If and when the BNP can manage to cross the barrier into clean-fingernail respectability, they will get more mainstream support.

      However, all the powers of the British state and all the snapping, snarling and contempt - like a ’shock revelation’ about Nick Griffin’s tinker grandparents or great-grandparents or some other bloody rubbish - of the British media are ranged against the BNP. One wonders who has ordered this incessant harrassment.

      Will this campaign of vituperation against the BNP actually work at the next U.K. election, bearing in mind that the U.K. electoral system works to the disadvantage of third and fourth parties?

      Vikrant has drawn a parallel with India and Indian politics but this parallel is misleading. India is a Federal country and anyone with any knowledge of the Indian political reality is aware that some States like Orissa and Bihar are appalling dumps - even Tamil Nadu is a bad joke, politically speaking - and West Bengal is ruled by claptrap-brained all-poor-together Bengali Marxists while Gujerat is - as Gujeratis will readily tell you or anyone else - is very very ‘business-friendly.’

      The parallels, is any there ever were, disappear on examination.

      By existing and winning a measure of electoral support, the BNP has altered the political reality, as have the nationalist parties in Continental Europe.

      We can only wait and see.

    86. joe90kane — on 11th July, 2009 at 8:03 pm  

      If and when the BNP can manage to cross the barrier into clean-fingernail respectability, they will get more mainstream support.
      - Just like Hitler.

      Speaking of Hitler, he’s my ideal nazi.
      Not only did he swallow poison but, just in case, he shot himself in the head. As if that wasn’t enough he had already ordered his subordinate nazi-scum to burn him to a cinder.

      Mind you, I did read in Mark Mazower’s excellent book Hitler’s Empire: Nazi Rule in Occipied Europe of a certain Nazi called Josef Terboven, made Reich commissioner of Nazi-Occupied Norway, who felt so bad about being a Nazi scumbag he actually blew himself to pieces. That’s ideal. Page 104 for the grizzly but too few details.

      My least ideal nazi is one that’s still breathing, such as Nick Griffin (whose name roughly translated as ‘Devil Beast’).

      I hope this helps PP.

      ps
      Maybe PPP can run a competition -
      @Who’s Your Ideal Nazi and Why?’

    87. joe90kane — on 11th July, 2009 at 8:05 pm  

      pps
      I thought I’d deleted my ps in my prevous comment.
      Please ignore it.

    88. Adnan — on 11th July, 2009 at 11:25 pm  

      Amrit @ 26

      “Anyone else interested in BNP-troll bingo? I have been sorely tempted to make a bingo card for a while now, but I’d need the help of others here :-D . The idea is based on this, which always makes me laugh out loud:”

      1. British pluck argument it’s like we’re the defenders at Rorke’s rift.

      2. Political correctness argument: the Zulus are like us - they eventually got rid of the Brits.

      3. Nazi indignation: Nazi dear, me dear, how VERY dare you !?!

      4. Blame (anybody else): I can’t get a job in a big company because minorities have to come first - mwah, mwah.

      It’s the white middle class liberal elite’s fault.

      The race relations industry are to blame.

      4. Tough talking future statesman: sink a few immigrant boats - that’ll learn ‘em.

      5. Found feminine side: we love Jews and homosexuals (but could only eat 2 at a time).

      Skilled immigrants (= “racial foreigners”) are needed more in their own countries.

      6. Economic selfishness argument: I’m boycotting curry houses ‘cos Asians never spend any money in our businesses and send it all abroad. I drink their Cobra beer.

      7. Nearly everyone can join in: don’t blame it on the sunshine, don’t blame it on the moonlight, don’t blame it on the good times - blame it on the MUSLIMS!

      8. Patronising pompous ass: read article once, once again, and think about it before you answer. Time for some Kipling methinks…

      9. Invasion of the body snatchers argument: British race being replaced over time and dying out.

    89. Celtlord — on 12th July, 2009 at 12:47 am  

      Recent immigration is an ideological experiment, mass immigration more so. There is no inherent right for immigrant or descendant minorities to import their cultural practices into Great Britain, to suggest otherwise is approaching an attempted colonization by immigrants, or their descendants You ask the question,”When do they accept that minorities also have rights to live their lives how they want to?” in reference to perspective from the “Right” Let’s take for example Female circumcision, in North Africa a common practice, Yet in Culture of the UK, it is a horrid form of child abuse. Honor killings, forced marriages, Islam’s elevation of it’s founder to the position of moral exemplar for all Humanity, while the historic record from islamic sources describes his actions, rape, torture, assassination of poets, ethnic clensing, a list of what to the Culture of Great Britain are nothing but vicious crimes of the most repugnant and regrettable kinds. If fundamentalist Hindus tried to resurrect the practice of satee, the immolation of a widow on her dead husband’s cremation pyre, in Britain, would the British People be engaged in a racism if they, “You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.” General Napier, The Only ethnic minorities with any inherent rights in Great Britain are Gaels and the Welsh. What has you confused, slapping a racist label on anything that critiques or is critical of ethnic minority cultural practices is that it isn’t race based, it’s a newer phenomena, perhaps you could call it culturalist.
      The belief that for Great Britain the indigenous culture and minority groups(Welsh and Gaels)are the only ones with the right to their cultural practice in these Islands, other groups practice their ancestral cultures only at the leave of the Natural cultures of Britain.

    90. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 12th July, 2009 at 1:59 am  

      Sunny,
      I hope we are all being open here, cause I have to be honest and say … forgive me … but I find this blog it self to be quite racist most times. I actually don’t even know what “race” means anymore. Everyone seems to have their own definition. The truth is we all live inside our own little worlds. I for one am so tired, tired of talking, tired of listening … tired tired tired!
      I have learned that people who like to “debate” will do just that …FOREVER!
      Always problems, problems, problems and no solutions to anything…. and for some dumb reason people never seem to realize things are always already changing … always, in every way.
      If you want to talk about the BNP, indeed you should…it’s just what you talk about I can’t understand.
      If I need say it again …personally I stand now and forever dead center in everything …which means I at least try to understand everyone’s point of view in everything, including politics.
      call me brain washed, but as an American I do believe “we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal ..etc”

      BUT … when you are talking about immigration and what not pertaining to England and all this BNP what ever … was there a post and discussion about reality? and how everything is NOT always about race, and Nazis …? I mean Great Britain is an Island, how many people can fit on it? and look at the problems in England alone …
      I picked this link cause I know how much everyone hates wiki…

      http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/customs/questions/population.html

      TOOO many people!! of coarse there are gonna be problems! and tension .. I wish we lived in a world we could all just be free and everyone could go where they “wanted” and be happy .. but we don’t right now. and I’d say that may be one of the reasons right there…. why do people immigrate?
      The biggest solution to everything would be to fix the reasons people leave where they are from, and I’m sorry but I do not see the “left” offering many solutions to those problems.
      who to blame for it all? the media, …for being more concerned with profit than actual well balanced information? …
      The people who read and watch ..then debate endlessly ….? Egotistical journalists?
      I used to think I knew the truth … about something … but I really don’t .. because there are a million truths … and either they all matter or none of them do, I can’t decide.

    91. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 12th July, 2009 at 4:51 am  

      sunny and who ever else,
      I’m just gonna leave this comment here in this thread ..
      I have just spent hours reading all over this blog, in the posts and comments, including the “about us” link your very mission statement says

      “We, as modern Asian Britons, are fighting a metaphorical war on two fronts.”

      What if you replace that with “modern white Britons” fighting that same war?
      It would probably be linked as a racist BNP supporting site …
      can you come up with nothing else against them than racism? really if you read their web site policies ..and compare with the other parties … the only thing that changes is the wording .
      How is it you know nothing of karma?
      There are many concerns with the BNP, including just the concept of a nationalist party … why do you seem to be so focused on just the immigration parts?
      In no way am I defending or supporting anyone, but you put a lot of thought and effort into asking all those questions …
      I have some for you now…. not to prove anything or even argue ..but just to understand

      1. Why wouldn’t there be some positive aspects to offering people an incentive to return “home” …?
      I literally know hundreds of immigrants from all over the world. I have asked them all why they came, how they did it, what their experience has been, if they like it or not, what they learned - good and bad …. a million questions .. believe it or not some are not happy here … I wonder if there was a program set up for them if they would return? Actually there is a trend now of return already ..and it is not because of anything racial, but they are taking back what they have gained and learned to better their own homes and countries. That is great!!

      everything is all in how you chose to think about it … for fun, just think, instead of fighting the BNP ..you all joined and became supporters .. now that would really change things!

      2. Always always, I see it said, people should be able to choose how they live. What exactly does that mean, and to whom does it apply? Is there some “white British” manifesto? If England is as bad as I would gather from reading all this … and only getting worse …. I recommend you get out quickly!
      though I’m positive it is not as bad as all that.
      I saw a link to some hope not fear group … do they have a blog? cause I think this one is the fear and no hope group …

      3. There is plenty of “Asian” and “racial” diversity on here, but aside form the “pickled”, and endless political debate …. where is the “British” exactly?
      Is there nothing of British culture you identify with and honor? Lots of protests, and plans for revolution … where is the balance? Who are you really and what is it you want, cause I can’t figure that part out … the pots and kettles look a lot alike here … how do you mock and ridicule things like “BNP babes” … but take offense and get defensive over mock and ridicule? Is that part of a plan? I don’t get it?

      4. how do you justify, in one post using some media piece to accuse various sources of creating “hype” …. and in the next, offer one as evidence for “hype”?
      Like … every story about Muslims extremists and immigrant take over blah blah … they are all lies! but ones of “white” extremist and a rise of BNP blah blah is all truth!

      5. How many times in one life do we have to see this referenced in a blog comment? “Hindus tried to resurrect the practice of satee, the immolation of a widow on her dead husband’s cremation pyre, in Britain, would the British People be engaged in a racism if they, “You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours

    92. The Queen of Fiddlesticks — on 12th July, 2009 at 5:34 am  

      WOW! …3 comments on once..shame on me!
      It’s that riz MC video set me off I think …
      Call me naive, call me stupid, call me idealistic …
      I know ugly why I see it! and that video is disgusting hate!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIeLXW6P27U

      sharing with us what he knows
      shining eyes are big and blue
      and all around him water flows
      this world to him is new
      this world to him is new
      to touch a face
      to kiss a smile
      new eyes see no race
      the essence of a child

      he’s born to shimmer, he’s born to shine
      he’s born to radiate
      he’s born to live, he’s born to love
      but we’ll teach him how to hate

      true love it is a rock
      smoothed over by a stream
      no ticking of a clock
      truly measures what that means
      and this thing they call our time
      heard a brilliant woman say
      she said you know it’s crazy
      how I want to try to capture mine
      I think I love this woman’s way
      I think I love this woman’s
      way she shimmers, the way she shines
      the way she radiates
      the way she lives, the way she loves
      the way she never hates
      sometimes I think of all of this that can surround me
      I know it all as being mine
      but she kisses me and wraps herself around me
      she gives me love, she gives me time
      and I feel fine
      I feel fine
      but time I cannot change
      so here’s to looking back
      you know I drink a whole bottle of my pride
      and I toast to change
      to keep these demons off my back
      just get these demons off my back
      cause I want to shimmer, I want to shine
      I want to radiate
      I want to live, I want to love
      I want to try to learn not to hate
      try not to hate
      we’re born to shimmer, we’re born to shine
      we’re born to radiate
      we’re born to live, we’re born to love
      we’re born to never hate

      good luck to all of you and your metaphorical war

    93. chairwoman — on 12th July, 2009 at 8:39 am  

      “Found feminine side: we love Jews and homosexuals (but could only eat 2 at a time).”

      Love it:)

    94. 1mongrel — on 12th July, 2009 at 8:52 am  

      Adnan (88).

      Sounds like The Glass Bead Game to me, still I suppose it’s easier than rebutting or refuting anything. Gandhiji recommended Hard Manual Labour for those afflicted by too much wooliness of thought, I merely offer helpful advice in an attempt to keep them on track.

    95. munir — on 12th July, 2009 at 10:41 am  

      marvin
      “Immigration from the African continent has dramatically increased the number of people with HIV in London. Yet why was there a campaign warning about the risk of HIV infection not too long ago of pictures of white heterosexual chavs from the home counties?!”

      Perhaps Marvin they should have shown a film of a charming big black African man seducing an innocent white girl in a bar. Next morning the girl wakes up to find she has because of her evil miscengation contacted AIDs. Let this be a lesson girls!

      If the NHS wanted to target Africans it would be better off producing things in French or collaborating with their churches. The general message is the same for everyone regardless of colour or partner - that you should wear protection. From a religious point of view the perspective that sex should only be for marriage should be promoted.

    96. Jai — on 12th July, 2009 at 11:11 am  

      Sunny,

      I think you should treat them the same way that you would treat commenters who are members/supporters of, and/or apologists for, Al-Muhajiroun and Al-Qaeda, since their respective psychiatric pathologies and the modus operandi of their respective efforts at proselytisation & self-justification are practically identical.

      ***********************************

      I’ll tell you who the most extreme proponents remind me of: It’s like listening to a bunch of persistent paedophiles and rapists blaming absolutely everyone but themselves for their “condition”, especially the targets of their obsessions (complete with playground-style cries of “Look what you made me do”), and engaging in all manner of self-serving, disingenuous pseudo-intellectual arguments to excuse, rationalise and justify their attitudes & behaviour. The level of Josef Fritzl-style deviousness and mental sickness on display has been truly disgusting.

    97. munir — on 12th July, 2009 at 12:00 pm  

      Jai
      “Sunny,

      I think you should treat them the same way that you would treat commenters who are members/supporters of, and/or apologists for, Al-Muhajiroun and Al-Qaeda, since their respective psychiatric pathologies and the modus operandi of their respective efforts at proselytisation & self-justification are practically identical.”

      Im not aware of there being any supporters of Al-Muhajiroun let alone al-Qaeda on here. Who are you talking about ?

    98. 1mongrel — on 12th July, 2009 at 3:32 pm  

      Jai (96)

      Slurs no longer slurring?

      People just laugh at your isming?

      Try New “Pedopower”

      Puts the mud back into mudslinging.

      Kills all known arguments - Dead.

    99. damon — on 12th July, 2009 at 5:56 pm  

      The Queen of Fiddlesticks: I’d never heard of Shawn Mullins before, but I really liked that.

      to touch a face
      to kiss a smile
      new eyes see no race
      the essence of a child

      to keep these demons off my back
      just get these demons off my back
      cause I want to shimmer, I want to shine
      I want to radiate
      I want to live, I want to love
      I want to try to learn not to hate
      try not to hate

    100. Adnan — on 12th July, 2009 at 9:01 pm  

      1mongrel @94,

      I’ll consider your advice to cure my woolliness of thought, :) .

      BTW, did you previously post as “qidniz” before? The style seems incredibly similar.

    101. Adnan — on 12th July, 2009 at 9:04 pm  

      Chairwoman @93 - much appreciated.

    102. 1mongrel — on 12th July, 2009 at 9:31 pm  

      Adnan (100)

      No, never posted here before. I’m a refugee from CIF(It isn’t), banned for countering the Hardworking Immigrant versus Lazy Chav Canard with style, ease and not a little grace.

    103. Amrit — on 12th July, 2009 at 11:39 pm  

      Adnan - that was beautifully done. Thank you so SO much! :-D

      Dunno about the rest of you, but I’m now operating a strict ‘ignore’ policy regarding our BNP trolls. Why should I waste my time on people who claim to effectively be members of the British Nazi Party? That suggests that they have paid for the privilege of their self-delusions and blame game.

      As Alex Kapranos might say, ‘Nah, you’re alreet.’

    104. Jai — on 13th July, 2009 at 8:49 am  

      Munir,

      Im not aware of there being any supporters of Al-Muhajiroun let alone al-Qaeda on here. Who are you talking about ?

      I was speaking hypothetically.

      ************************************

      Amrit,

      That suggests that they have paid for the privilege of their self-delusions and blame game.

      Exactly.

    105. Ravi Naik — on 13th July, 2009 at 9:41 am  

      No, never posted here before. I’m a refugee from CIF(It isn’t), banned for countering the Hardworking Immigrant versus Lazy Chav Canard with style, ease and not a little grace.

      Are you Asian, 1mongrel? You seem to have implied that you were:

      Moi, a racist? Tell you what, you’d be more welcome in The BNP than me. I’m more Desi than most of the posters here.

      Can I ask, what the fuck is wrong with you?

    106. Ravi Naik — on 13th July, 2009 at 9:45 am  

      My guess is that you are half Asian, half White, and the half White is a racist BNP supporter. Can’t be easy.

    107. 1mongrel — on 13th July, 2009 at 10:15 am  

      105 and 106.

      Should be easy enough to work out, just look at the posts, Ravi you’re completely wrong. A commitment to truth rather than multikulti myth should not just indicate BNP support (Though there’s not much else in your ammunition locker). For people supposedly against stereotyping you sure do plenty yourselves. (By the way I do have a very old car which I look after extremely well). Seems some stereotypes are true.

    108. Ravi Naik — on 13th July, 2009 at 10:46 am  

      Should be easy enough to work out, just look at the posts, Ravi you’re completely wrong

      Care to clarify where I am wrong? Because you seem awfully confused. On one hand you say you are more desi than most here and that you would not be welcome in the BNP, another you act as a BNP cheerleader, and make a case they are the only ones who can save Britain… against people like yourself.

      A commitment to truth rather than multikulti myth

      You seem to have serious problems in the racial front, and me thinks you hate looking at the mirror and seeing a brown face. Deal with those self-hating issues first before talking about cultural diversity.

    109. 1mongrel — on 13th July, 2009 at 10:53 am  

      Ravi (108)

      You’re getting dangerously close to the “Ad Hominem” type of debate so common on here. All I’ve ever said on The BNP is that The British have a right to vote for whoever they choose. Lies are lies, no matter who tells them. The “Halt Chat” slur you’re trying to blackguard me with shows just what kind of an Anti Racist you really are (If you still haven’t worked it out, despite all the clues I’ve given you, look for my post on the Hindu Cremation thread).

    110. Ravi Naik — on 13th July, 2009 at 12:40 pm  

      The “Halt Chat” slur you’re trying to blackguard me with shows just what kind of an Anti Racist

      Slur? Are you Asian or are you not? Why can’t you answer a simple question?

    111. Carmenego — on 13th July, 2009 at 1:19 pm  

      #110

      BECAUSE HE’S A POLITICIAN!!! OH NOES!!!!

    112. 1mongrel — on 13th July, 2009 at 3:16 pm  

      Ravi (110).

      Does race matter then? Surely we need to address the post rather than the poster(Perhaps you’re one of those Brown Supremacists).

    113. Ravi Naik — on 13th July, 2009 at 3:39 pm  

      Does race matter then?

      You really have no shame, now do you?

      Surely we need to address the post rather than the poster(Perhaps you’re one of those Brown Supremacists).

      Funny, I remember you telling me this:

      Always remember, ultimately you have a homeland (You may not like it but that’s immaterial). This is the homeland of The British, they have nowhere else. Imagine for a moment how you would feel if India or wherever, ceased to exist.

      So, let’s be clear: you made an argument about me and about my race. How’s that? Does race matter now? At least, you are ashamed to admit directly that you are Asian, I would too if I tried to make a case for the BNP.

    114. damon — on 13th July, 2009 at 4:18 pm  

      chavscum, I’d hope we could discuss stuff like this on this website without allegations of racism.
      http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=white+flight+sunderland+bolton&meta=

      I’ve raised issues like that quite a few times, and the only person who has jumped on me … and called me a bigot, was Munir … (who doesn’t count).
      I can’t remember much of your reasoned debate chavscum (it would be good if there was a function where you could look up a person’s posts and read through them all. It’s easy to miss things the way things are).

      White flight and middle class flight are real. I don’t think anyone on here would deny it. So, I’d say chavscum, try to be a bit patient and show you’re not a hothead, and I’m sure people will be able to discuss things like that with you.

    115. Shamit — on 13th July, 2009 at 4:27 pm  

      chavscum

      Are you talking about the Institute of Community Cohesion report?

      If so, the report focused on Bristol, Sunderland, and a couple of other areas — and I think while they concluded that there was “white flight” - a lot of people would conclude “Middle Class flight”.

      Many middle class parents (including many asian ones) do pull out their children from comprehensives and put them in private schools. I don’t see the problem with that. Do you?

      And again its about aspiration and aspiration for your kids - also, I have heard a lot of not very rich but middle class parents talk about the quality of education as well as the safety factor in making their decision. Personally, I do not know much about this as I have been privately educated.

      Does that make me or my parents racist? Or for that matter Rumbold? Don’t think so.

      Most likely my child would go through the private education system because it is the best option — and I do not apologise for that as a parent at all.

      So where is the problem again?

    116. Shamit — on 13th July, 2009 at 4:31 pm  

      Mongrel

      Give it up. Ravi is literally tearing you into pieces. May be get some back up — because obviously you are intellectually quite deficient to argue a case coherently.

      It reminds me of the Muslim guy who stood for the BNP..are you him by any chance?

      You are a bonafide idiot though.

    117. Shamit — on 13th July, 2009 at 4:47 pm  

      chavscum

      Why is it education apartheid?

      Could you explain.

      *************************

      Mongrel

      Why is race important? Even Griffin now is saying that he has no problems with British Asians or British Blacks — so what is your problem?

      And if you live in Britain — who is stopping you from leaving? And if you do not — mind your own fucking business and stop meddling in our country’s affairs.

      Got it.

    118. damon — on 13th July, 2009 at 9:25 pm  

      Including Sunderland in this report sounded odd. As far as I knew it was one of the whitest cities in England.
      On Wikepedia it says of Sunderland:
      ”98.1% of the population are white, with 1% Asian and 0.4% mixed-race”

      And then mentions an area of the city called Thornholme (it’s most ethnicly diverse … and that just looked like a few streets when I looked it up on google maps). Wikipedia says of this neighbourhood:
      ”Here, 89.4% are white, 7.8% are Asian and 1.3% are mixed-race.”
      If that amount of etnic diversity is causing ‘white flight’ in England in these days, then we’re all doomed.
      I reckon it’s BS in Sunderland’s case, but not in London’s.

    119. douglas clark — on 13th July, 2009 at 10:04 pm  

      Shamit,

      Eh!

      Even Griffin now is saying that he has no problems with British Asians or British Blacks…

      So who are all these my dna is whiter that your dna freaks that keep commenting here? Shouldn’t the squeeky clean Mr Griffin be chucking them out of his new multi racial party?

      Where the drawbridge is up and we all man the barricades?

    120. 1mongrel — on 14th July, 2009 at 3:07 pm  

      Ravi (113).

      Shamit (117) (Get you)

      I have no need for shame as I don’t pretend to be an Anti-Racist then call people half chats or ask them a million questions to acertain their precise racial origins. Neither do I (Carmenego) call for a particular race to be deprived of sexual partners of their own kind in order to destroy their entire race. (Behind that fluffy exterior is the kind of unreasoning envy and hatred that even Hitler rose above). All any of you have done is answer my posts with Ad Hominems or innuendo and you think that’s winning?

    121. Ravi Naik — on 14th July, 2009 at 3:45 pm  

      I have no need for shame as I don’t pretend to be an Anti-Racist then call people half chats or ask them a million questions to acertain their precise racial origins.

      You can’t pretend to be an anti-racist, because you
      are the one who insinuates that people who do not belong to a certain race should leave this country in order to save it. This after saying that you were more desi than everyone else here. You also not had no problems in telling me that I have a homeland based on my race - so why do you draw the line when we talk about you?

    122. Carmenego — on 14th July, 2009 at 3:56 pm  

      #120 1mongrel

      “Neither do I (Carmenego) call for a particular race to be deprived of sexual partners of their own kind in order to destroy their entire race”

      Here’s what I actually said on Friday #19 (bloody ages ago)

      “Multi-culturalism *is* winning, otherwise forums like this wouldn’t exist, and people from different backgrounds wouldn’t be able to live/work/blog/love/have children together in the UK, as many quite happily do.”

      Perhaps if you read what I said you wouldn’t need to retort with such a silly argument? I’m a fully qualified legal secretary so I try to word my comments very carefully.

      Thanks for comparing me to Hitler. We actually share the same birthday. When you say he “rose above” hatred, do you mean he killed himself? Because I find a well reasoned argument helps me rise above my hatred (unless it’s about courgettes, which I will always hate).

      Also I take offense to “fluffy exterior” - I shave my legs almost every day.

      All that aside, I’m actually curious, are you a British Asian or an indigenous British white, or something else?

      I’m very proud to admit I’m Anglo Indian. Do you not share the same pride in your ethnicity?

    123. Carmenego — on 14th July, 2009 at 3:59 pm  

      #121 Ravi

      I’m telling you, he’s either a politician or he’s from one of those embarrassing countries :-P

      How many times have we asked for 1mongrel’s ethnic origins? is it approaching one million? I thought it was, like, five.

    124. 1mongrel — on 14th July, 2009 at 4:07 pm  

      Ravi (121).

      And your point is? I’ll repeat, I’m not pretending to be Anti Racist whilst (Intentionally or unintentionally) destroying someones elses homeland. The bhaens don’t realize that they destroy the flowers they trample on. Further I’ve not tried to conceal my origins but stated them openly (Just that you were unable to work it out). Perhaps because you’ve forgotten your roots. (Thought you would have got it when I joked about building a Dakhma on Wimbledon Common).

    125. Carmenego — on 14th July, 2009 at 4:10 pm  

      #124 1mongrel

      WHAT?
      “I’ve not tried to conceal my origins but stated them openly (Just that you were unable to work it out)”

      Pffff!

    126. Carmenego — on 14th July, 2009 at 4:11 pm  

      #124 *Recovering from laughter*

      Could you do us all the honour of telling us, rather than assuming we have as large an intellect as you to work it out?

    127. Vikrant — on 14th July, 2009 at 4:19 pm  

      Given his insinuations about being “more desi” than most, just the very fact that he uses the term desi, I’d say 1mongrel appears to be an Indian expat in the UK .. many of them who do not intend to settle in the UK have strikingly similar views.

    128. 1mongrel — on 14th July, 2009 at 4:21 pm  

      Carmenego (122).

      Seems you’ve forgotten this little gem of yours-

      “That’s pretty impressive. When those white children grow up, if they want to have kids, they’ll have no choice but to mix with the non whites to breed and then in 20 years time there won’t be any white people left in the UK. At all. Ever again.”

    129. sonia — on 14th July, 2009 at 4:23 pm  

      Ban ISPs??? wtf- what are we now CHina? Yahya Birt why would anyone have to go to those lengths?? I cannot believe you seriously think that.

      Ridiculous - keep them coming I say. Otherwise how are we going to know what they think@? And who is afraid of a flame war? I certainly am not.

      COme on guys, let’s not be all wussy pussy types…please. If you can’t have flame wars on the Net, they happen elsewhere. Some of you may be rather prissy but this is a serious point.

    130. sonia — on 14th July, 2009 at 4:27 pm  

      Anyway as far as I can see, people can choose to engage with other posters or not.

      Unfortunately too many people here seem to think it is acceptable to use rude language themselves in response to a racist comment: guess what - it isn’t. It reduces you to the same level and it doesn’t impress anyone.

      So if there is going to be a flame war, then all participants should be held to account - regular PP commenter or not. I am not sure where all this moral superiority is originating from.

    131. Carmenego — on 14th July, 2009 at 5:36 pm  

      “That’s pretty impressive. When those white children grow up, if they want to have kids, they’ll have no choice but to mix with the non whites to breed and then in 20 years time there won’t be any white people left in the UK. At all. Ever again.”

      Yes that was one I am particularly proud of :-) I can’t be bothered to spend the time looking through everything I’ve posted in the last week or so. If you’d be so kind as to remind us all which thread that was on, we can all look it up and read it in the context it was written, which I believe was in direct response to an illogical fear espoused by either yourself, Colin Brown, or chavscum. It was purely tongue in cheek.

      Why has it taken 3 or 4 days for any of you BNP sympathisers to respond to it? Perhaps because you knew it was a sarcastic response to a ridiculous idea the first time around?

      1mongrel Are you my Auntie Anita? She’s very good at changing the subject too… and she’s a bit of a coconut. I don’t even care what your ethnic background is any more. I reckon you were adopted or something and are a bit confused about it.

      #129 and 130 Sonia
      I totally agree! Is this a flame war? If so I’m loving it. I tend not to get too abusive if I disagree with someone, as it’s not constructive for the purposes of a debate, but a little patronising here and there never goes amiss. It’s always funny when the opposition tries to be patronising back, as they usually get it slightly wrong *grins*

    132. 1mongrel — on 14th July, 2009 at 5:45 pm  

      Carmenego (131)

      You’re proud of that? Yet you don’t like The BNP. They only want you to go home, not for you to become the Last of The Mohicans.

      I fail to see how this is changing the subject, in fact after your and Ravi’s tortuous diversion into my precise racial makeup we’re only just getting back onto it.

    133. Ravi Naik — on 14th July, 2009 at 6:01 pm  

      When you say he “rose above” hatred, do you mean he killed himself? Because I find a well reasoned argument helps me rise above my hatred (unless it’s about courgettes, which I will always hate).

      I hear you… courgettes are so overrated!

      Could you do us all the honour of telling us, rather than assuming we have as large an intellect as you to work it out?

      According to his clues, he is a Parsi immigrant, and a self-hating pathetic individual. Did I get it right 1mongrel?

    134. Jai — on 14th July, 2009 at 6:03 pm  

      Perhaps because you’ve forgotten your roots. (Thought you would have got it when I joked about building a Dakhma on Wimbledon Common).

      Given the fact that the Parsi population in Britain is very small indeed compared to the majority of British Asians who are Pakistani, Indian Punjabi or Gujarati, references to Parsi buildings such as ‘dakhmas’ will not be familiar to many British Asians of all ages, and certainly not to the average UK-born 2nd-gen South Asian who will have had very little (possibly zero) social contact with Parsis and will therefore be unlikely to be aware of the Persian/Farsi term for “Tower of Silence”.

      However, given the concerns in some quarters of India’s small Parsi population about the community being “destroyed” due to intermarriage and the dwindling number of potential marriage partners available from the same background, it certainly explains (but absolutely does not justify) the mindset behind the following statement:

      Neither do I (Carmenego) call for a particular race to be deprived of sexual partners of their own kind in order to destroy their entire race.

      And as for the following:

      the kind of unreasoning envy and hatred that even Hitler rose above).

      Ironically, it’s exactly that kind of thinking that causes some people to behave in highly neurotic, indignant, irrational, inappropriately possessive, indeed envy-and-hatred-driven ways when they perceive individuals from “other” backgrounds “stealing” “their” women (or, sometimes, men — but let’s be honest, it’s more frequently about “losing” women to The Other, isn’t it ?).

      Which is the fundamental problem, because it’s based on the following two erroneous premises:

      1. A false presumption of ownership over people you perceive to be from the same background from you, even if your actual relationship with them is tenuous or non-existent beyond common race/ethnicity/religion/nationality/etc (*delete as applicable).

      2. A false presumption of having the right to dictate who someone else should not become sexually involved with. In reality, there is this “little” concept in the modern era, particularly here in the West, of mutually-consenting adults.

      Presumptions which are not only false and arrogant, but also obsolete in terms of modern Western ideals and norms. Except, of course, for those throwbacks who still believe in such tribalistic, bigotted notions. Not to mention the assumption that “nationality” and “race/ethnicity” itself are analogous, despite the fact that the concept of the nation-state itself in the modern sense is a relatively recent development in world history.

      Hell, as our august friend from India itself, Mongrel should understand this more than anyone, given the subcontinent’s own history and post-colonial political partitions and constructions, both in terms of the division/creation of language-based states and the accession of previously-independent royal kingdoms to the republic of India along with Pakistan.

      Unless, of course, Mongrel thinks that the Indian government and populace should have the right to deport him and all his other Parsi relatives back to Iran if they see fit to do so…..

    135. Carmenego — on 14th July, 2009 at 6:06 pm  

      #132 1mongrel

      1) Can you please re-read my last post, specifically the bit where I said:

      “it was a sarcastic response to a ridiculous idea”

      and then come up with a better reply.

      2) Put a link to the original comment so we can see it in the context it was written and make up our own minds.

      Apologies for upsetting your incredibly delicate sensitivities. I had no idea Ravi and I were being “tortuous” by simply asking you to clarify what you meant when you called yourself “desi” and yet are sympathising with a group of politicians who want people of ethnic minorities to return to their countries of origin (or just be “dropped over Africa” was it?)

      I suppose in some ways it is a bit like being tortured, only without severe amount of physical and emotional pain.

    136. Ravi Naik — on 14th July, 2009 at 6:12 pm  

      Ha! I beat you by 2 min, Jai. ;) Great analysis though. It all fits together, and no doubt he is attracted by the BNP’s anti-Islamic rethoric.

      Unless, of course, Mongrel thinks that the Indian government and populace should have the right to deport him and all his other Parsi relatives back to Iran if they see fit to do so…..

      Well said.

    137. Carmenego — on 14th July, 2009 at 6:16 pm  

      Oh, a self-hating Parsi.

      Jai, you’re right - I wouldn’t have got that.

      I’m not too hot on my South-Asian history other than stuff that affected my family tree (which is mostly British tbh) - why were we never taught about colonialism in school?

      I really like point 2 #134
      What is it about mutually consenting adults making their own decisions that BNP/sympathisers seem to have such a problem with?

    138. Carmenego — on 14th July, 2009 at 6:20 pm  

      #133 Ravi

      In a desperate bid to get me to eat courgettes, my gran grates them raw, mixes it with feta cheese, chopped leek, chilli, paprika and coriander, and makes these awesome stuffed parathas. This is the ONLY time I eat them (ie When they bear no resemblance to courgettes whatsoever!)

      Nicely done Jai and Ravi, I’d never have guessed that :-)

    139. Don — on 14th July, 2009 at 6:41 pm  

      Ah, stealth courgettes.

    140. Cyberman — on 14th July, 2009 at 7:45 pm  

      This would never have happened under the Tories.

    141. Carmenego — on 14th July, 2009 at 10:15 pm  

      #140 Cyberman

      What… stealth courgettes? Are they NuLabour?

    142. 1mongrel — on 14th July, 2009 at 10:29 pm  

      131 to 138

      Well well, you’ve all finally got it. Unfortunately in doing so you’ve exposed enough bigotry to fill a whole collection of BNPs. So the question is, who exposed who? (Yeh, I know you don’t get it).

      Jai, read Carmenego again, I only answered her call for Genocide.

    143. Carmenego — on 14th July, 2009 at 11:01 pm  

      #142 1mongrel *sigh*

      No one really cares about your ethnic background, we were trying to find out the CONTEXT of some of the comments you’ve been making over last few days.

      No one’s “exposing” you for anything. You don’t seem to need any help in exposing yourself *giggles*

      Also, where was my call for genocide? It was a tongue in cheek JOKE, poking fun at the ridiculous fear you BNP sympathisers have got yourselves worked up into.

      Urgh. I’m so bored of trying to reason with you. Discussing politics with you is like explaining the basics of string theory to a creationist.

    144. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 12:31 am  

      Caramengo,

      If you can explain the basics of string theory to me, or anyone else on this forum, it would be an honour and a privilege to try to twist the Master of the Universes’ beard and get him to post it here.

      (That’s Sunny, btw.)

      We have a desperate need to err..know, you know?

      My understanding of string theory was limited to a bowline and a half hitch, no honestly, that is the name of a knot. When cosmologists started to talk about the Universe as multi dimensional, beyond the observable, beyond the provable, I had a bit of a problem with that. If you are a pragmatist, such as me, there ought to be at least a route to testability, if there is such is a word. I’ll stand corrected, but I don’t think there is any expirement running anywhere that would back up these ideas?

      So, for the meantime, the ideas of speculative cosmologists - who also seem to believe in the Boltzmann brain, despite clear and convincing evidence to the contrary:

      ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain )

      leads me to think that theoretical science needs to get a grip. If the theory is not testable and replicable, then it is not science. It is just another idea, out there, like munirs understanding of his relationship with God, or mine that he is not a new prophet.

      Lets stick to what we do know, and argue against what we think is wrong. Sonia, (oh! bloody hell) is right as usual. When she says that arguing with folk in cyberspace is a relatively pain free experience.

      This forum has people that can tag team idiots out of existence. I’ve seen it done ever since this place started. And, frankly I love that about it. Call me cruel or call me right, it doesn’t really matter. It is what this site has successfully done since it’s inception. It has challenged anyone that said they represented anyone else.

      And it has won.

      Not one arguement, but every arguement it has fought. The BNP are no different, as Jai eloquently said, than the Taliban.

      It is that ‘middle ground’ that makes this a worthwhile place to comment and learn.

      Yes, learn.

      For, frankly, before Sunny started this web site, I was probably as ignorant, though hopefully not as hateful, as you average white person. You read, you learn.

      I dunno whether that means anything to you, but it is, kind of, the way I think.

      Am I wrong to believe women are the equal of men? Am I wrong to think that equality between people should be our natural assumption, whatever their sex, orientation, religion or politics, and if I’ve missed anything, let me know.

      I am not a homosexual, I am not married to an Indian, nor am I anyone of any importance whatsoever. I have been ‘accused’ of all these things over a number of threads and none of them are true.

      Just so’s you know, I am white, I am single and I quite fancy Shilpa Shetty.

      Though it would be fair to say that almost every woman that has the bottle to comment here is a heroine in my book. Whether they agree with me or not.

    145. Vikrant — on 15th July, 2009 at 9:06 am  

      Only at the end of the news item was the dreaded – but anticipated – word ‘Roma’ mentioned.

      Maybe there is a bleeding reason Roma are fleeing the Czech republic… where they are treated like shite anyways..

    146. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 9:57 am  

      Vikrant,

      I am attempting to chose my words carefully. Your point about how the Roma are being treated is well taken.

      So, I’ll ask you, are ordinary Muslims not being treated in a similar way here?

      For it seems to me that they are.

    147. Jai — on 15th July, 2009 at 10:07 am  

      Jai, read Carmenego again, I only answered her call for Genocide.

      Carmenego was clearly joking, as was patently obvious to anyone sane reading her comment. The concept of satire and irony appears to be completely lost on some people.

      So, Mongrel, according to your own logic and political sympathies, presumably you believe in the following assertions, if one applied the BNP’s own ideology to Parsis in India:

      - The sympathetic Gujarati king who offered asylum to the Zoroastrian refugees (your ancestors) all those centuries ago was making a huge mistake and should have either sent them back to Persia (immediately or at a suitable stage afterwards), refused to let them land on Indian soil irrespective of where they went afterwards, or (to use Nick Griffin’s recent “recommendation” about African refugees arriving in Europe) destroyed any ships/boats carrying Zoroastrians before they had the chance to reach India’s coast.

      - Parsis should never be regarded as “true Indians” (or “Indians” full-stop) by other Indians (or by anyone else) irrespective of how many generations they have resided in India, irrespective of the person concerned actually being born in India, and irrespective of how “Indianised” the Parsi concerned may be in terms of cultural influences & interests, mores, attitudes and lifestyle.

      - “Indigenous Indians” should always be the first choice over Parsis in any sphere of Indian life, from jobs to business services to romantic partners.

      - A Parsi in any field of employment is “stealing” a job from an “indigenous Indian”.

      - A Parsi romantically involved with/married to an “indigenous Indian” is “stealing” a man/woman who would (indeed, by your logic, “should”) otherwise be involved with/married to an “indigenous Indian”, and is actually committing an act of genocide against the “indigenous Indian” population.

      - In fact, the very presence of Parsis in India is an “act of genocide” against the “indigenous Indian” population.

      - The majority Indian population should have the legal right to refuse to employ Parsis, or to refuse to serve them/provide professional business services to them, purely because they are Parsi.

      - Parsis in India should be stripped of any human rights legislation or Indian laws in general which protect them from discrimination, persecution, defamation or harassment.

      - Parsi actors and models in Bollywood, from Boman Irani to Nauheed Cyrusi to Parizaad Zorabian, along with people like John Abraham (who has a Parsi mother), should never be depicted in on-screen romantic relationships with non-Parsi actors/actresses or “indigenous Indians” in general. In fact, they should a) never be depicted in non-Parsi roles and b) they are “stealing” acting jobs from “indigenous Indians”.

      - Any Parsi cultural influence or presence in Indian society in general is a “polluting foreign influence” and should either be strongly discouraged or prohibited outright.

      - The Godrej and Tata industrialist families have been “stealing” jobs from the majority “indigenous Indian” population since the 19th century, and are continuing to “take” wealth from the latter.

      - The considerable contribution of noteable Parsis to India, in politics (including the independence movement), law/business/commerce/industry, arts, and sports should either be deliberately de-emphasised or completely stripped from Indian history books and eradicated from any awareness or references in the public sphere. Including the Parsis listed here, some of whom are very famous and respected indeed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Parsis

      - All Parsis who are currently Indian citizens should be given a “generous financial incentive” to be “voluntarily” repatriated back to Iran, since that country is their “true homeland”, not India.

      **************************************************************************

      Just to be clear, I don’t believe in any of the assertions above and would disagree in the strongest possible terms with the mindset behind them and any efforts to actually implement them in India. But presumably you would support the Indian government imposing these measures on you, all your Parsi relatives, and the entire Indian Parsi population as a whole, from the top-down and across the entire country, and you would fully agree with & support the ideology of any Indian political party campaigning for election on this basis.

      Because this is exactly how the BNP thinks in terms of their attitude towards all non-white people in Britain.

      I trust the matter is a little clearer now.

    148. Adnan — on 15th July, 2009 at 10:09 am  

      Doug @146

      Speaking as an “ordinary Muslim”, I don’t think any comparison can be made with with the unfair discrimination with which Roma are treated in some EU countries. Muslims are treated as well as anybody else.

      Some will say that I’m being too lenient on the government, others will say that Muslims get preferential treatment here.

    149. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 10:11 am  

      There is that old game we used to play, which I’ve mentioned before. Rock, paper, and scissors. And it feels entirely apt.

      The rock could be belief in a crap arguement, the paper could be accomodation of that belief, the scissors could be contempt of all the foregoing.

      So, there are three theoretical factions that you could consider joining. What’s it to be? The rock, the paper or the scissors?

    150. Shamit — on 15th July, 2009 at 10:15 am  

      Jai —

      Could I have the Tata Group please — as an indigenous Indian?

      (mongrel — THIS IS A JOKE — and I have nothing but respect for the entire Parsi community and the contributions they have made in business, law, philanthropy and I think they are no more or less Indian than any other community)
      ****************************************

      Jai - I have sent you the link to the specific investment report you were looking for.

    151. Rumbold — on 15th July, 2009 at 10:16 am  

      Adnan:

      “Some will say that I’m being too lenient on the government, others will say that Muslims get preferential treatment here.”

      Muslims are equal before the law, but a rising tide of Islamaphobia has meant that they aren’t treated equally. Just look at the way Muslims are expected to apologise for terrorists, and they way in whcih non-stories involving Muslims are turned into ‘threats to our way of life’ laments.

    152. Adnan — on 15th July, 2009 at 10:29 am  

      Rumbold @151,

      I see what you’re getting at (and I hate that kind of stuff), but that’s a world apart from stuff like:

      http://www.amnesty.org/en/appeals-for-action/romani-children-denied-proper-education-slovakia

    153. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 10:30 am  

      Adnan @ 148,

      I am glad to hear you say that. Perhaps I should not align myself with idiots like munir?

      My own experience is that white folk tend to be quite prejudiced, and, only after exposure to your average muslim, or Asian or whatever, do they change their minds. Which is - probably - how integration works. Person to person.

      When you find a common interest, prejudice tends to drift away. My new ‘best friend’ is a chess enthusiast, and his best mate is an Asian that is his equal at the game. You do see the point, don’t you?

      He absolutely detests Catholics, but is completely neutral on muslims. What is that all about? Well maybe it is about a common obsession or somesuch.

      The local tends to inform us. I think that that is pretty well understood, but I could be wrong….

    154. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 10:44 am  

      Rumbold @ 151

      Adnan @ 152,

      Call me a dreamer, but I’d like to see society treating muslims equally. Which is not where we are at right now. There are numerous idiots who post here that think every muslim is an Osama Bin Laden avatar.

      Reading the posts here, nothing could be further from the truth.

      But, sadly, muslims are the new whack a mole.

      It is all desperately wrong….

    155. Rumbold — on 15th July, 2009 at 10:48 am  

      Adnam and Douglas:

      I think that you are both right, in that while the treatment of Muslims is not as bad as the treatment of Roma in Eastern Europe, there is still plenty of anti-Muslim sentiment in this country. I just want to see a society that judges people as individuals.

    156. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:07 am  

      Rumbold @ 155,

      I just want to see a society that judges people as individuals.

      Me too!

      As you know, I think your ethics are squeeky clean, whereas your politics are wrongheaded, to say the least. ;-)

      And the former is far more important than the latter.

      You were at the forefront of pointing out how religious sensibilities were used as an excuse for cultural wrongdoing, and I salute you for that. It is quite brave of you to say that sort of thing, and I admire you for it.

      Oh shit! Hagiography here I come! :-)

    157. Jai — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:09 am  

      Shamit,

      Could I have the Tata Group please — as an indigenous Indian?

      Very funny. I wonder if Mongrel thinks that John Abraham has committed an act of genocide against Bengalis — or “indigenous Indians” in general — by getting romantically involved with Bipasha Basu.

      On a more serious note, one has to wonder at the considerable irony and hypocrisy of a Parsi, descended from Persian Zoroastrian refugees to India, and from a community which has benefitted enormously from India’s own multicultural society, supporting a racist British party which promotes the complete opposite of everything that has enabled Parsis to settle and thrive within India, especially in Bombay/Mumbai.

      ……And thanks for sending me that investment report I requested, very interesting reading.

    158. Rumbold — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:11 am  

      Doulgas:

      Well, I am glad we can disagree on some political issues but still remain mutual admirers. We both want essentially the same thing, a tolerant and free society, we just disagree on how to achieve it. And one day, when you apply to join the Libertarian Party, you will not feel out of place (just teasing you).

    159. Carmenego — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:14 am  

      #144 Can I call you Doug? It was one of my favourite cartoons as a child.

      String theory, like many other theories cannot be proved yet. There are a few reasons why it may be beyond human capabilities to prove, one of which concerns the way we have evolved to experience the world. Did you know that about 7% of women can see colours that no-one else can see? They’re not insane or anything, it’s just that they carry an ability to see past the realms of most ordinary humans. It’s a fascinating subject to be honest, there are loads of books I could recommend on the subject! Anyway, back to the issue…

      #151 Rumbold
      “look at the way Muslims are expected to apologise for terrorists”

      I’m possibly too young to remember, but when the IRA was a big threat, were Catholics asked for their point of view in the news in the same sorts of ways that Muslims are at the moment (documentaries etc)?

      #152 Adnan

      That story’s terrible. It makes me really glad that we have all this “political corectness” over here. But I still agree with Rumbold. There’s so much anti-Islam in the media, be it open outrage or subtle stories, like in reporting a crime story they’ll add the religion of the perpetrator unnecessarily. Would they bother mentioning it if the perpetrator was Catholic or Protestant? I somehow doubt it.

      One more thing to add (sorry, I’m getting a bit long winded now) #144 - What does being a woman have to do with my ability to rant online? Surely with our slender lady fingers (to type fast) and highly developed skills of arguing, we are genetically better at flame wars? :-P !!

      Everyone loves Shilpa Shetty (except possibly Danielle Lloyd and Jo off S Club 7). I once got mistaken for Connie Huq, I owe her a cheeseburger lol.

    160. chairwoman — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:34 am  

      “Just look at the way Muslims are expected to apologise for terrorists,”

      Rumbold, it’s the price paid by all minority groups.

      We’re expected to apologise for Israel and Bernie Madoff. If you’re Black then the apologies are expected for knife crime and drug taking. During the Irish troubles, people of Irish descent had their turn in sackcloth and ashes.

    161. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:34 am  

      Rumbold @ 158,

      We both want essentially the same thing, a tolerant and free society, we just disagree on how to achieve it.

      Yes, we do. Including the disagreement. But as long as the objective is similar, well…..

      And, frankly, every regular commentator here seems to want the same thing.

      So, no names! For that got me into trouble the last time! But they know who they are.

      I will say that a certain bearded one has given space to a lot of folk to agree and disagree. Perhaps we all understand each other better than we did before. That’s not to say we agree on every nuance, but it is to say that a space has been opened up that didn’t exist before.

      Which, it seems to me, is a good thing.

      For that, and indeed for all the mind opening commentary both in the op-ed and the comments, I am glad I found this place.

    162. munir — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:43 am  

      chairwoman
      “We’re expected to apologise for Israel and Bernie Madoff. ”

      really? by whom? Can you bring one newspaper article suggesting jews be held responsible or apologise for Israel or Madoff? (incidentally I dont believe for a second they should: the notion of collective guilt is vile)

    163. munir — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:46 am  

      Carmengo
      “I’m possibly too young to remember, but when the IRA was a big threat, were Catholics asked for their point of view in the news in the same sorts of ways that Muslims are at the moment (documentaries etc)?”

      No they werent

      “That story’s terrible. It makes me really glad that we have all this “political corectness” over here. But I still agree with Rumbold. There’s so much anti-Islam in the media, be it open outrage or subtle stories, like in reporting a crime story they’ll add the religion of the perpetrator unnecessarily. Would they bother mentioning it if the perpetrator was Catholic or Protestant? I somehow doubt it.”

      Exactly

      It even happend in international stories- we hear of the Chinese conflict with the Muslim Uighurs- not of the the Buddhist Tibetans.

      Pick up any tabloid and next to stories of Muslim baddies youll find other stories were the religion of the perpetaror is ignored (as it should be)

    164. Shamit — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:48 am  

      douglas @161

      Excellent and very well said

    165. munir — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:52 am  

      “I will say that a certain bearded one has given space to a lot of folk to agree and disagree”

      here here- well done to Jai and Banana Brain

    166. chairwoman — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:52 am  

      “We’re expected to apologise for Israel”

      By you for one, Munir.

      I don’t know why you have a problem with me. Is it my age, race, or sex? I don’t know, but whatever it is, you read what I’ve said, and assume that I actually meant something completely different.

      May I suggest a nice warm drink and a couple of Paracetamol?

    167. chairwoman — on 15th July, 2009 at 11:56 am  

      “Carmengo
      “I’m possibly too young to remember, but when the IRA was a big threat, were Catholics asked for their point of view in the news in the same sorts of ways that Muslims are at the moment (documentaries etc)?”

      No they werent”

      Yes they bloody well were!

      My in-laws, both of partially Irish descent and spent all their time condemning and criticising the IRA. As professing Catholics they were embarrassed and ashamed.

    168. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 12:03 pm  

      Caramengo @ 159.

      #144 Can I call you Doug?

      Yup, all my best friends can’t stand the formality that my name seems to imply. As I’ve lived with it all of my life, I don’t really ‘get it’, but it seems to be offputing… Call me what you want, I tend to respond best to Dougie. I only use my real name here in order not to be a complete utter wank. ;-)

      (If you write something under your real name, perhaps you ought to feel responsible for it? Anyhow, it keeps me ‘real’, or real enough.)

      Anyway, could you provide some evidence for this?

      Did you know that about 7% of women can see colours that no-one else can see?

      Perhaps I missed it, and it would be important were it verifiable. My dad had a cataract operation and could then see further into the infra red than ordinary folk. Is it a similar, though innate, ability or somesuch?

      The point about science is that is supposed to be verifiable. I would have absolutely loved ‘cold fusion’ to be true, but it is in the dustbin of history only because it wasn’t replicable.

    169. Carmenego — on 15th July, 2009 at 12:09 pm  

      #167 Chairwoman

      “My in-laws, both of partially Irish descent and spent all their time condemning and criticising the IRA. As professing Catholics they were embarrassed and ashamed.”

      Ok, there seems to be conflicting views here, but embarrassment and shame aside, was there the same/a similar level of anti-Catholic sentiment as there seems to be anti-Islam?

      I’m at home today, and I asked my Grandad. We’re Catholics as well, so a lot of my friends from school and my grandparents friends from Church are of Irish extraction, and he said that the way news is reported now is a lot different to how it was back then, so although the answer is no, it’s seems like it’s more to do with the sheer volume and change in the media than a change in attitude perhaps? Although I never remember any fights kicking off between Irish and Italian Catholics at school or divisions at mass.

      I wonder if something similar to happen now with the IRA, if reporters would start mentioning Catholicism in their description of a criminal in news stories?

    170. Carmenego — on 15th July, 2009 at 12:17 pm  

      http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06256/721190-114.stm

      #168 Hello Dougie, my name really is Carmen, I’m fairly happy with it :-)

      It says here 2-3%, but in a lecture I went to recently, the speaker said 7… this is just a quick google search on “women see more colours” though!

    171. chairwoman — on 15th July, 2009 at 12:20 pm  

      Carmenego

      At the time, the newspapers always mentioned that the protagonists were Catholic.

      As time went on, and the Protestants started their own little atrocities, the media always mentioned what religion the perpetrator du jour was.

      As for different Catholic groups fighting at school, that’s a seriously interesting thought. The late Chairman came from Liverpool where the city is neatly divided between Catholics (Left-footers) and Protestants (Proddy dogs). Catholics historically supported Everton, and Protestants Liverpool although this isn’t as rigid as it once was.

      And as for fights, interfaith fighting between schoolboys used to be a biggie, but that has probably also changed.

    172. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 12:21 pm  

      I don’t think there was as much blaming and naming going on back then. My recollection, and I am at least as old as Chairwoman, was that the IRA were seen as an abberation. Catholic by declaration, but not Catholic, if you see what I mean.

      So, no, it is not the same thing. Muslims are being accused of being apologists for the nutters within their community. Catholics weren’t. (Though that’s not to say you couldn’t find a polemecist back then that took that point of view.)

    173. damon — on 15th July, 2009 at 12:21 pm  

      Equating muslims in Britain and the plight of Europe’s Roma is surely pretty much OTT.
      And Douglas Clark, you say @ 153 ”My own experience is that white folk tend to be quite prejudiced”.
      Is that not a really crude generalisation? (And if it was true, then the BNP types might have some justification for their anti-immigration stance).

      The director of the Birmingham central mosque made a statement a couple of years ago about muslims in the UK being in a position now (or almost like) the Jews in nazi Germany found thems selves in, pre WW2. I think most people thought he was being wildly melodramatic. I did.

      I made a comment about the Riz MC video where I said I thought some of this feeling of persecution (particularly amongst youth), was perhaps a form of ”therapeutic alienation”.
      Like in that video where he’s saying ”Forest Gate? Abu Ghraib? yeah whatever”.
      Why should people in this country be so concerned about these things particularly?
      Forrest Gate was a complete cock up of a police operation. That’s all it was (as far as I know).
      Abu Ghraib was a disgrace, but then so are so many other disgraceful prisons in the world.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpBCJkwZJHM

      I watched that Amnesty video about the segregated schools for Roma children in Slovakia. Terrible.
      The EU have got to get to work on this issue an a huge way. We’ll look back on this like we look back at segregation and Jim Crow in the states one day.

      But surely a ‘’solution” cannot be large scale migration of the Roma to western Europe and Canada, can it? They are discriminated at home, and if they are not integrated, when they move away, they soon find discrimination in their new countries.

      In this short YouTube it seems that a Roma father has had to go to the hospital in Rome to get his children checked out for the warts they had on their hands.
      It seems that Italian parents and teachers had made a fuss when they saw these and were worried that they were contagious.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYmgCG36SaY
      Integration will not be easy for the Roma in Italy I think.

    174. hantsboy — on 15th July, 2009 at 12:37 pm  

      how much money do you make from this blog Sunny ?

      Guido Fawkes Blog makes £5000 per week according to some.

    175. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 12:44 pm  

      damon,

      And Douglas Clark, you say @ 153 ”My own experience is that white folk tend to be quite prejudiced”.
      Is that not a really crude generalisation? (And if it was true, then the BNP types might have some justification for their anti-immigration stance).

      Yes, it is a crude generalisation. In my, admittedly limited experience, it also tends to be a truism. Exposure to folk of a different background - and from what I can tell about you, you’ve had quite a lot of it - means that that attitude is ameliorated. Which is good, is it not?

      What I am attempting to say is that culturally insular groups do tend towards a hatred, and I chose that word carefully - of the ‘other’. Not all, not everyone, but perhaps some.

      Getting to know folk that don’t share my cultural background has been a really positive experience for me. I have said that, despite my SNP loyalties, I would drop everything to help various people here get elected to parliament. So, no, the BNP types are scum that can’t see beyond the colour of someones skin. I’d have hoped that you and I can see a bit beyond that.

    176. Vikrant — on 15th July, 2009 at 12:56 pm  

      Jai,

      Parsi actors and models in Bollywood, from Boman Irani to Nauheed Cyrusi to Parizaad Zorabian

      Sorry for being pedantic, but none of them are actually Parsis… as justforfun could affirm for me. They are Iranis i.e descendants of recent Zoroastrian immigrants to India making them distinct from Parsis.

    177. Scots Tiger — on 15th July, 2009 at 12:59 pm  

      Wasn’t there - briefly - a post on here about the Canadians slamming the door on visa-free movement to Canada by citizens of the Czech Republic because dozens, then scores and then hundreds of Roma from the Czech Republic were arriving at Toronto International Airport and promptly demanding asylum on the specious grounds that they suffer discrimination at the hands of the Czechs?

      Was the post removed while the Tiger was dozing?

    178. munir — on 15th July, 2009 at 1:03 pm  

      “We’re expected to apologise for Israel”

      chairwoman
      By you for one, Munir.

      Wow a total lie. Care to bring any proof whatsoever?

      Did you even read what I wrote

      161″Can you bring one newspaper article suggesting jews be held responsible or apologise for Israel or Madoff? (incidentally I dont believe for a second they should: the notion of collective guilt is vile)”

    179. munir — on 15th July, 2009 at 1:10 pm  

      damon
      “The director of the Birmingham central mosque made a statement a couple of years ago about muslims in the UK being in a position now (or almost like) the Jews in nazi Germany found thems selves in, pre WW2. I think most people thought he was being wildly melodramatic. I did.”

      Since youre not a Muslim and indeed are hostile to Muslims how would you know. In terms of legislation ceratinly not - in terms of the constant demonisation in the press it is pretty accurate

      “Why should people in this country be so concerned about these things particularly?
      Forrest Gate was a complete cock up of a police operation. That’s all it was (as far as I know).”

      Riiight retard.. so people in the UK shouldnt be concern about the police bursting into peoples houses shooting innocent people- I mean why do you Irish make such a fuss about Bloody Sunday? or torture of prisons in a country the UK invaded (likewise the sqeuling of the Irish when torture was used during the troubles).

      Using your brainless logis one would ask why we should care about the Roma in Slovakia (though of course we should)

      I think you made yourself clear- because the shooting and toturing of Muslims dont bother you you think they should be ignored and “why should we be concerned about them”?

    180. Scots Tiger — on 15th July, 2009 at 1:11 pm  

      Carmenego is right!

      There’s nowt wrong with genocide, if carried out with single-minded determination!

      Tasmania is the only Australian state in which the progressive projects of a progressive citizenry are not constantly thwarted by objections raised by a handful of detribalised Wonga-Wongas who invariably claim that the area earmarked for - say - a hosital or an orphanage is a sacred burial ground of the Wonga-Wongas going back to the Dreamtime.

      Tasmanians, having eradicated the Tasmanian equivalent of the Wonga-Wongas long ago, do not have to endure such tiresome annoyances.

    181. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 1:25 pm  

      munir @ 178,

      As someone who seems, tentatively perhaps, to agree with some things I say here, unless the ‘here, here’ @ 165 was ironic and I missed it, could you please explain yourself? What is your satisfaction in attacking the likes of Chairwoman, who seems to me to be a pretty nice person. Who does not seem to have a racist bone in her body?

      I can accept that you are entrenched in your viewpoint. Heavens, you are the very epitomé of digging that particular ditch, but you occasionally say stuff I do not find offensive, nor disagree with.

      Why is that? Because you do actually have a brain and despite it being given over, almost exclusively, to a protectionist, fearful idea of what other folk are saying or thinking, sometimes you can see beyond your conditioning.

      So, munir, are you writing exclusively to hear your own voice echo, or are you trying to convince other people of your, no doubt, heart felt, beliefs? If it is the former, then I understand, if it is the latter perhaps you should reconsider your approach. There are a lot of people that read this blog who you could attempt to influence, but you are not going about that in a positive manner.

      Alienating folk, right, left and centre is not particularily positive.

      At least, that’s what I think….

    182. chairwoman — on 15th July, 2009 at 1:35 pm  

      Munir - In the same way as nobody ‘asked’ my inlaws to apologise for Catholic Republican ’spectaculars’ as they came to be known, certain attitudes made them feel that they should. That is how your comments make me feel, and I am not the only Jew who posts on this site who feels like this, both bananabrain and Katy have made similar comments although they haven’t directed ithem directly at you.

      Your vocabulary is frequently inflammatory, and you have made it quite clear that, in your opinion, if we don’t condemn, then we approve.

    183. bananabrain — on 15th July, 2009 at 1:40 pm  

      i will direct them directly at munir with [dis]pleasure. he is a hidebound, reactionary bigot and a loathsome, toad-spotted little reptile. by most people i am regarded as somewhat of an islamophile. however, people like munir make me wonder sometimes if melanie phillips doesn’t have a point. fortunately i think he’s the minority rather than the rule.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    184. munir — on 15th July, 2009 at 2:08 pm  

      chairwoman
      “At the time, the newspapers always mentioned that the protagonists were Catholic.”

      Ah yes but when someone in the mainland robbed a bank did they say “Catholic man robs bank” No they didnt

      In any case I dont even think what you said is accurate
      -terminology like loyalist and nationalists was and is used far more frequently

      Take this latest story as a case in point-in no wehre refers to Catholics but instead to “dissident republicans. ”

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8150699.stm

      As time went on, and the Protestants started their own little atrocities, the media always mentioned what religion the perpetrator du jour was.

    185. ali — on 15th July, 2009 at 2:11 pm  

      Munir,

      you seem to have scuttled away from the BNP report thread when i asked you about HMD - do you accept defeat on this then?

    186. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 2:18 pm  

      bananabrain,

      There has been a new policy around here, which I seemed to have missed, that the BNP will be directly challenged on here on their beliefs. I welcome that. But we ought to be the equal of a tendentious person like munir too. If it is sauce for the goose, etc…

      And resorting to ad hominems doesn’t add anything, much, to the debate. I have very little clue where munir is coming from, because he chooses to keep it a secret between himself and his keyboard, but I suspect he is yet another person who sees his particular God as the brand leader.

      Though I loved the idea of a toad-spotted reptile, how off the wall is that?

    187. damon — on 15th July, 2009 at 2:36 pm  

      Yes Douglas Clark, the BNP are scum. We can all agree on that. What constitutes race hatred and what backward prejudices people might have, (while still deplorable), is the area that interests me most.

      To try to understand what is driving these prejudices.
      Unfortunately, I don’t think that close proximity to other racial groups, or long term residents of an area living closely with newcomers always ameliorates in the end. For a variety of different reasons.
      And it’s this variety that I think is most important.

      For example, this report about ‘white flight’ on BBC London made for depressing viewing.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6FqM6lEf4A
      This video was put up by some racist outfit it would seem. There are lots of statistics in it which would give their repugnant views lots of ammunition.
      The stastics about the % of white children in some London boroughs primary schools for example.
      Children in primary schools show how the demographic future of an area will be.

      Surely it can be more than just a family’s racism that makes them decide to up sticks and move out of an area that has had large scale demographic change?

      The schools and the quality of life may actually have declined in that neighbourhood. It might have problems and new kinds of social issues that this family just can’t be bothered with dealing with. (As well as their racism being a factor).

      I’m going to Ireland (I hope) next week. I haven’t been in Dublin for a few years, and just looking around on youtube, I came across this video, (put out by Irish racists I’m sure), but it did have me thinking ”wow” all the same.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHWZ3QtVNtc

      I lived and worked in Dublin for a few months ten years ago and this process was just starting.
      You’d see that a couple of shops had opened that were selling African food, or beauty and hair products, and became places where you’d often see some African people standing outside.
      They were still quite rare then, and it will be interesting to see the changes that have taken place.

      If asked about how they might feel about Dublin becoming as multi-cultural as those parts of London in that BBC Lodon report, I fear that there might be a negative reaction from many Irish people to a question like that. Unfortunate maybe, but you’d hardly be surprised by it either.

      To beat the BNP, I think anti-racists have to have a way of dealing with these (perhaps difficult) issues that racists bring up.

    188. douglas clark — on 15th July, 2009 at 3:19 pm  

      damon,

      What constitutes race hatred and what backward prejudices people might have, (while still deplorable), is the area that interests me most).

      Me also. I live in a pretty diverse community, and I don’t see this as the major issue that many commentators on here seem to. If it is unremarkable, and it is, to see an Asian boy holding hands with a white girl, or vice versa, why should I care? I’d expect that they’ll still come across the occasional lumpen racist, and that is to be regretted. But it is not typical of the society I live in. It is the lumpen racist that has the problem, not the couple, nor I come to that.

      My, admittedly short, experience of Dublin last year was incredibly bad from a racial tolerance point of view. Though, I shouldn’t take the voice of a solitary taxi driver as evidence, it was hard not to. Given that it was pissing with rain, that I had a plane to catch and that I was his victim. To cut a long story short, he eulogised the IRA for ‘dealing with’ some Somali nutters. What you or I might see as a turf war over gangsters rights, he saw as black and white. Wow! Your own criminals are a better class of criminal. Now, that thought had never occurred to me, but there you go. Dublin does, somewhat, remind me of an almost exclusively white enclave in the UK. Exeter, perhaps.

      It is, otherwise, a very nice city.

      My point, such as it is, is that racial integration is quite likely to occur, because love trumps colour, trumps racism. Not for everyone, there are folk on both sides of that particular divide that would see it differently. But, in general, in the main.

      But there you go, I am just someone who finds all of this racist stuff irritating, so maybe I find comfort where none is due.

      Did I mention that I find Shipla Shetty quite amazingly good looking?

    189. sonia — on 15th July, 2009 at 3:25 pm  

      as Rumbold says throughout…particularly 155¬!

    190. damon — on 15th July, 2009 at 3:47 pm  

      Munir @ 179
      ”Since youre not a Muslim and indeed are hostile to Muslims” -
      I’m no more hostile to Muslims than I am to anyone else I would hope. But not being religious does give me some views that you might see as prejudice.
      It doesn’t seem that way to me, but you obviously see it different.
      And about Forest Gate and Abu Ghraib, I did use the word ”particularly”.
      I thought that was the important word.

      It was because these things are mentioned in that Riz MC video at the top of this blog.
      That it seemed that Muslims in Britain should feel about these issues keenly. And when the wider society didn’t ”get” them the same way, that this was a reason for feeling some alienation. I only say this after listening to the song a few times. ”What is it saying?” I was asking myself. Is there some ”therapeutic alienation” going on here I wondered. (I know no one has picked up on it, but I think that John McWhorter’s theory of therapeutic alienation is an important one).

      I think we should try to be concerned about all issues of injustice, and not focus overly on ones that effect our own community or Ummah.

      I thought it was ironic when I read that it had been observed that in some Arab countries, young boys were playing a new version of cowboys and indians, which was ”Guantanamo prisoners and guards”.
      I guess the big boys got to play the guards and tied up and abused the younger ones.
      This was being played in countries that have themselves, terrible prison conditions and torture regimes.
      There are a few hundred prisoners at Guantanamo, and about 2 million in prison in the USA. It could be argued (now in 2009) that the 2 million figure is a greater scandal than Guantanamo … (with emphasis on the word ”could”).

    191. munir — on 15th July, 2009 at 4:01 pm  

      damon thank you for reasoned comments on 190. i agree with much of what you said.
      Re: Guantanomo vs US prisons in the former case people were imprisoned without having been charged, knowing what they were in for or given a trial- they were treated differently than US prisons evidenced from the fact that the laws were different for US guantonomo suspects

      Agree with you about prisons in the Arab world -the opression of Muslim leaders is strongly criticisised in the Muslim community-but it still doesnt justify the US’s acts- its like a rapist saying “well members of her family raped her so why shouldnt i”?

    192. Jai — on 15th July, 2009 at 4:34 pm  

      Vikrant,

      Sorry for being pedantic, but none of them are actually Parsis… as justforfun could affirm for me. They are Iranis i.e descendants of recent Zoroastrian immigrants to India making them distinct from Parsis.

      Interesting. All of those actors/actresses openly self-identify as “Parsi”.

      Either way, most of my original points still stand.

    193. Rumbold — on 15th July, 2009 at 4:44 pm  

      Chairwoman:

      I would partially agree with that. Jews are certainly expected to justify Israeli actions. However, I haven’t heard any calls about Maddoff.

    194. damon — on 15th July, 2009 at 10:32 pm  

      Douglas Clark

      I think there’s more to this than the boy/girl thing you mentioned @ 188.
      I know you can’t take this person Jennifer Smith (who’s ranting on another thread) seriously, but if she was Swedish you can guess what she’d be saying about Malmo can’t you?
      http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=malmo+sweden+immigrants&search_type=&aq=f
      Some of those youtubes are very good.
      The ones titled ”Crossroads Europe; Sweden” are thoughtful and raise some pertinent issues.

      In Ireland, Somalians have come almost entirely as asylum seekers. If there is criminality emerging from that community, then that’s a bit worrying. I have seen in London that as a community they can be somewhat aloof. Near where I live there is a small Somali enclave, and they black out the windows of their cafes to make them look uninviting to a casual passer by. I did go into one of these places once and asked about the menu (I’d seen people eating, but it was more like school dinners served out of a hatch. Not geared up for the general public).
      I was told that I was most welcome to eat there.
      When this change happens fast (in a country like Ireland), it’s bound to lead to some difference of opinion.
      Here’s something about Dublin not having enough schools for it’s raising population, and allegations of institutionalised racism being made against schools and public bodies.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OCVG32sKmU

      I suppose my point is , that I think the left has difficulty in dealing with some issues like that, and often tends to get all ”Socialist Worker” as a means of ignoring things it has trouble with.

      What Sweden should do in places like Malmo for example?
      Just keep having an open humanatarian door for more and more people from places in conflict?

      If you missed it, have a quick look at the beginning of this youtube from one minute in. The big childish youths who say thay are from ‘Palestine’.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjpLXH20NqE

    195. sipho — on 17th July, 2009 at 8:17 am  

      Should we not be banning Gordon Brown for sending 18 year old children as cannon fodder in illegal wars. Is this not a little more important than a small political party?



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