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  • Technorati: graph / links

    BNP membership list leaks online


    by Leon on 18th November, 2008 at 4:31 pm    

    Crikey! There’s going to a good few pissed off BNP members today!

    The British National Party has lost its membership list - the whole thing has been published online.

    The list includes names, addresses, phone numbers and email addresses of all members up to September 2008. It also includes some people’s ages, especially those under 18 - the BNP offers family membership for £40. Many entries also contain more personal comments about jobs or hobbies. That’s how we know that that BNP members include receptionists, district nurses, amateur historians, pagans, line dancers and a male witch.

    Members have unsurprisingly reacted with outrage. One commenter said: “I’m also on the list, what the f#ck is going on? I could lose my job.” Another: “The most shocking thing is some of the comments by the names! God help anyone who is in the army, the pison [sic] service, health care, police officer or a teacher.”

    A shocking violation of the Data Protection Act I would have thought, although due to the context I’m not sure now much sympathy will be generated…

    No doubt there a fair few people who’s job will be on the line should this list get wider distribution.

    Rumbold adds: Regardless of what you think of the people on the list, or the ethical nature of publishing such information, please do not link to the list, as it may be a breach of the law. Thank you.



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    199 Comments below   |   Add your own

    1. Tim Worstall — on 18th November, 2008 at 5:01 pm  

      I so, so, want a copy of that if anyone catches sight of it….

    2. Don — on 18th November, 2008 at 6:30 pm  

      Tch,tch. My heart goes out to them.

    3. AsifB — on 18th November, 2008 at 7:03 pm  

      I’m in favour of putting how much tax people pay online, but…You wouldn’t want this happenning to you right?

      Gloating about people losing jobs for fascist views they may have kept private is a touch McCarthyite as well, no?

      I’m not paranoid, but the chipping away of civil liberties has historically been helped by targeting the unpopular.

      And really what are you going to do if you find an address in your own postcode - become a vigilante?

      Having said that, I was interested by an entry (surname AIS.. ) which says activist and gives an address as Santiago, Phillipines.

    4. billy — on 18th November, 2008 at 7:29 pm  

      Mixed feelings about this. On the one hand a visceral amusement at seeing them squirm, on the other hand, it is a breach of privacy. Perhaps there is a public interest issue if, as I have read, there are policemen and other public servants on the list?

    5. Rumbold — on 18th November, 2008 at 7:36 pm  

      Good points AsifB (apart from about the tax).

      Can’t see the ‘public interest’ defence myself, as, however loathsome, the BNP are a legitimate politcal party. Even if some of their members have failed to declare their party affiliation, it does not justfiy the publication of information about the rest of them.

    6. MaidMarian — on 18th November, 2008 at 7:54 pm  

      I did like Nick Griffin’s job title on the list!

      More sreiously though it is quite a list and good fun to read. I appear to live in a BNP free postcode!

      On a separate point, do I remember Searchlight publishing names in the past, or am I making that up in my mind?

    7. MaidMarian — on 18th November, 2008 at 8:09 pm  

      Just one other thing on the list. There are quite a few marked as ex-members of other parties, but one person is described as (and I am not kidding here)

      ‘Activist. Ex-Conservative and then Lib-Dem councillor, ex-chairman of local Green Party and UKIP member
      Minister of Religion. Cert. Ed. Hobbies: steam railway’

      That must be fake!

    8. Don — on 18th November, 2008 at 8:29 pm  

      Yeah, it’s a breach of privacy, but at the moment it appears to have been the result of internal squabbles.

      Gloating about people losing jobs for fascist views they may have kept private is a touch McCarthyite as well, no?

      Maybe, but AFAIK the only people who could lose their jobs over this are those in occupations that specify no political affiliation (police, armed forces). I don’t think it’s gloating to recognise that a copper who joins the BNP should be off the force.

    9. Simon J Ford — on 18th November, 2008 at 8:39 pm  

      Good to see transparency by the BNP :)

      Its a tough life when their members can’t do their deeds in secret aint it.

      Had to larrf.

      SJF
      Editor http://www.nhsexposed.com

    10. leon — on 18th November, 2008 at 8:42 pm  

      This is gonna royally mess up the party, great news from where I sit!

    11. billy — on 18th November, 2008 at 8:44 pm  

      Their entire funding is going to collapse. Who will want to be a member and pay their subs now? This is a hydrogen bomb on their heads.

    12. Paul Moloney — on 18th November, 2008 at 8:48 pm  

      Tim, it’s easy enough to find on the blogs. Also floating around out the on eMule. Seems to be genuine; at least, I did a random search on Facebook for one email from the list, and the picture of the bloke displayed shows him topless, holding a shotgun and wearing a bandana. Of course, there could be an entirely innocent explanation.

      “On the one hand a visceral amusement at seeing them squirm, on the other hand, it is a breach of privacy.”

      They’re fascists. Fuck ‘em.

      P.

    13. null — on 18th November, 2008 at 9:08 pm  

      *cough* bit torrent *cough* pirate bay *cough*

      Excuse me - I have a cold.

    14. nick's shittin' — on 18th November, 2008 at 9:12 pm  

      excellent! boy i’m proud to be british!!! oh, and having a right old laugh about those suckers seeing their details on the website hahahahahahahahaha

    15. roy — on 18th November, 2008 at 9:12 pm  

      Gee whizz , if it is a normal party with no malicious intent then what is the harm

      After all I am under the impression BNP are not bad they just have their view so why are they so in uproar

      If you want a list of Doctors its is there , dentists it is there , lawyers it is there , conservative party it is there , so why suddenly are the BNP so uspet

      Oh sorry yes it is in some places referred as the anti -immigration party .

      The BNP should just be blunt about their views but I suspect now that Barrack Obama is president their outspoken views , for fear of “multiple reasons” , will change

      I can not and do not want to say much as freedom of speech and views is stifled here , at least in some countries we know it is dangerous to say things , Here it is reported that all views are respected and heard but we all know if it upsets someone , even if they are criminals , bad evile people , thieves , drug dealers, scum of society they will be protected

      So I do not wish to say much except if the BNP is not a malicious wrong doing party they have nothing to fear

    16. Tom — on 18th November, 2008 at 9:25 pm  

      One other thing I haven’t seen mentioned anywhere else - I’ve often suspected the BNP are full of criminals; football thugs, benefit cheats etc. It would be awful if their membership list contained a load of the dregs of society.

    17. tfa — on 18th November, 2008 at 9:26 pm  

      I fail to see anything amusing in this. Not least because it brings us all a step closer to Prodi-Levi type legislation.

      Not to mention that all of those on the list joined a legitimate political party, and stunts like this simply subvert the political process and are an insult to democracy.

      Sure laugh at the people on the list, and say they deserved it but it doesn’t get around the fact this is an illegal act, that has potentially exposed people to violence or worse.

    18. Pierre — on 18th November, 2008 at 9:29 pm  

      To all secret police/special branch goons reading this. (Bursts into giggles) You’re first up against the wall!

    19. Sunny — on 18th November, 2008 at 9:32 pm  

      There’s a reason why the BNP are unpopular, Asif!

    20. richard — on 18th November, 2008 at 9:45 pm  

      What people dont realise is that this might be the point where, members and supporters are now prepared to dig their feet in, and stand up to the betrayal of our country, this list could well have been manipulated to silence the growing concerns of a morally and finacially corupt regime.

    21. What are you creaming yourselves for? — on 18th November, 2008 at 9:50 pm  

      You cry that we are fascists and then froth with delight that our details are published as you pretend (and I really do mean pretend) that you are glad as you will now do something. What do you think you will do? Attack people to stop them having thoughts you don’t agree with? How do you define fascist?

      All my details are on that list. I haven’t even had a dodgy phone call yet. If I do get one, that’ll be the worst that will happen. Most of you are mugs who wouldn’t say boo to a goose unless you were in a gang.

    22. Anas — on 18th November, 2008 at 9:57 pm  

      If I do get one, that’ll be the worst that will happen. Most of you are mugs who wouldn’t say boo to a goose unless you were in a gang.

      Oh, you’re in the BNP. What a big man!

    23. ?????? — on 18th November, 2008 at 9:57 pm  

      how do you search to see who lives in your area, been trying but it just dont seem to be working?

    24. Roger — on 18th November, 2008 at 10:00 pm  

      As everyone agrees that the list has been leaked because of internal quarrels it’s probable that it’s also been doctored to suit whoever leaked it; there may well be non-members included for reasons of malice or members excluded for other reasons.

    25. David T — on 18th November, 2008 at 10:28 pm  

      Here’s a nice little scoop from Brett:

      http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/18/black-shirt-brown-shirt-green-shirt/

      Keith Bessant stood as The Green Party’s parliamentary candidate in Cheltenham in the 2001 election and the last general election in 2005. It now transpires that he is a member of the BNP.

    26. vt — on 18th November, 2008 at 10:51 pm  

      Funnily enough the membership secretary’s details have been leaked too . .

      Mrs Tina Wingfield
      12 Lawn Terrace
      Silloth-on-Solway
      Wigton
      Cumbria
      CA7 4AW
      016973 32082 & 01697 332326
      membership@bnp.org.uk
      Membership Secretary

      and her husband Martin Wingfield edit’s the main magazine ‘ Voice of Freedom ‘ .

      this one made me chuckle :

      Mr Robert Burroughs
      5 Newman Road
      Plaistow
      London
      E13 8QA
      pacmaniac@hotmail.co.uk
      Resigned 17/9/07 (confused re. Party policy on ethnicity). Was 27836 (07). Re-joined 26/11/07

    27. Paul — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:05 pm  

      I’m on the list, and I welcome it being published. Our Marxist leaders who are unfolding 1984 before our very eyes have opened Pandora’s box.

    28. Concerned doglover — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:12 pm  

      Does the guy with the email bulldog69uk@msn.com perform 69 on a bulldog?

      It would appear so..

    29. Ravi Naik — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:19 pm  

      I’m on the list, and I welcome it being published.

      No, you don’t.

      Our Marxist leaders who are unfolding 1984 before our very eyes have opened Pandora’s box.

      Blame the government - check.
      Blame immigrants for this leak - waiting
      Blame the BNP for incompetence - rejected

    30. msomething — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:22 pm  

      ha ha …..This one made me laugh. Discretion required, employment concerns. sicky tomorrow perhaps ?

      Mrs
      Yvette
      Bettley
      90 Davenham Avenue
      Prenton
      Wirral
      Merseyside
      CH43 2LW
      0151 200 8153
      07917 038656
      r3ymb@hotmail.com
      Activist. Lyndsey (15) YBNP Sup Club. Family: Stephen & Richard Bettley. Under 16s Comps slip. Discretion required re. employment concerns
      Police officer

    31. Paul — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:24 pm  

      Ravi, get back to your own people, I have no gripe with you. I welcome diversity, Britain for the British, Pakistan for the Pakistanis and India for you. VOTE BNP for diversity NOT 1984 Marxism

    32. Lee — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:29 pm  

      Those people adding links - did you not read the article?

      “Rumbold adds: Regardless of what you think of the people on the list, or the ethical nature of publishing such information, please do not link to the list, as it may be a breach of the law. Thank you.”

    33. Ravi Naik — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:34 pm  

      I think Rumbold and Sunny would do a great service to this blog by removing all comments that include links and people’s details.

    34. John Davidson — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:45 pm  

      I do not see the problem here, if you support an organisation, such as the BNP, you must either be stupid, or proud of being stupid. Now go forth and bask in all your glory. The membership list is, indeed, out there, it’s on the internet, it’s on websites and trackers far beyond the jurisdiction of mighty Britannia, so celebrate in your new found fame. A word of warning: Every scrupulous employer will be checking CVs and employees against this now.

      Tell me though, how does it feel? No regrets I hope?

    35. Ravi Naik — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:46 pm  

      Ravi, get back to your own people, I have no gripe with you. I welcome diversity, Britain for the British, Pakistan for the Pakistanis and India for you.

      Paul, I am with people I consider my own, I also have no gripe with you, I also welcome diversity, I also believe in the close relationship between nationals and Nation, and nationals and their country of origin.

      I wonder what else we have in common. I guess we both write in progressive blogs with an Asian flavour. ;)

    36. Paul — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:51 pm  

      Ravi, you should take the New World order (The Marxist’s 100 year plan) VERY seriously, by mixing us up in a multi-culti mess we gain nothing. No culture is preserved. I do NOT hate people for their culture or colour of their skin, but I fear Marxixm/NWO/Multi-culturalism, as that benefits none of us.

    37. til — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:54 pm  

      so people in the bnp party could lose their jobs why dont people in the labour or tory party lose their jobs as well this is supposed to be a democracy i am not a member why dont they ban it and let it go underground then they can call themselves freedom fights for native englishmen

    38. Anas — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:57 pm  

      Yay!!! More good news, that grotesquely bloated bigot jon gaunt has been sacked:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7736353.stm

    39. Ravi Naik — on 18th November, 2008 at 11:57 pm  

      I do not see the problem here, if you support an organisation, such as the BNP, you must either be stupid, or proud of being stupid.

      Sorry, it is wrong - even stupid people who support a legitimate - albeit incompetent - Party deserve their data to be secured.

      The list is rather unremarkable - the number of members is surprisingly small. What I am enjoying, of course, is the response from BNP members. Here is one “Griffin puts out a statement and lies to BNP members.”

    40. Sunny — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:20 am  

      I’ve deleted the messages linking to the blog. Sorry folks, we’d be liable for that.

    41. Bartholomew — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:21 am  

      I think Rumbold and Sunny would do a great service to this blog by removing all comments that include links and people’s details.

      King Canute comes to mind…

    42. Rob — on 19th November, 2008 at 1:17 am  

      Ok,

      Seeing as I am on the list, what the f*** is Santa gonna bring me this Christmas?

      On a more serious note, are we talking about the UK or Zimbabwe? Anyone that thinks it funny or righteous that this information has been leaked should remember that this is a Democracy.

      How would you like it if people targeted you for your beliefs?

      I say, bring it on scumbags.

      I LOVE THE BNP!!!!!!!!!1

    43. Muhamad — on 19th November, 2008 at 1:50 am  

      I believe some people already have the full list of names…

      Ravi @ 41
      Legitimacy amounts to bugger all when it comes to the neo-Nazi scumbags. No offence, but you sound like an apologist. Incompetent?? Is that why they failed to exterminate the Jews? Wasn’t that done by a legitimate party?

      Fucking hell man!

    44. Kulvinder — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:21 am  

      Let the witch hunts commence.

      Although its broadly amusing to see internal politics rip apart political parties (regardless of what party it is); im shocked (well shocked lite) at the glee people have in ‘outing’ members of a legal entity.

      They probably won’t thank me for it but i have to say my sympathy lies squarely with the members in this case.

    45. James Huddison — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:07 am  

      I found a copy very easily on google… oh dear

    46. dave bones — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:22 am  

      Talking about Nazis I never thought I’d be in a situation where I would be defending John bloody Gaunt as I fuckin hate him but he seems to have been well wronged here. Its political correctness gone mad thats wot it is :-)

    47. Tomas Foley — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:24 am  

      I think its priceless all these leaks… and am especially enjoying the fact that there are BNP supporters leaving comments here too… Truth is the secrecy of BNP membership, runs parrallel with the secret racism within too many peoples hearts & minds… forgetting that behind the eyes of black & white people alike, is the very same blood we all share.

      My opinion is that its fantastic that someone printed this list… these people, many of whom teachers & police officers & even Green Party Parliamentary candidates, clearly attempting to confuse people who may have voted for him, of his beliefs… should be named & ashamed of the hatred within.

      People claim here that “its a legitimate party” and that we live in a democracy. If (and of course it never would happen) BNP ever got to power, they would be stripping the human rights of a huge number of good people in this country & so, to me they have no democratic right to be a party… theres some things that cannot be lobbyed for.

      The irony is though… It wasnt an anti-BNP activist who blogged the list to the net… but a former BNP treasurer… Lesson being hatred will eat you up eventually!!! Many people who are head honchos in that party are there for the power & the chance to share their thoughts of hate with other likeminded racists… if they were serious about their campaign… they would never have thought to blog peoples names as now so many people will never join the BNP… personally I think thats a result!! :)

      Im Irish/English, I agree totally with Ravi Naik’s comments above about cultural links to your parents country… what is British anywaY?? Were all a mix of something… look at the welsh, in the North of Wales many claim those from South Wales arent true welsh as they dont speak the native tongue…. I am lucky to be born into a time where, looking down on another for their colour or race, is something dark corners & secret lists and am ashamed of peoples secret thoughts of hatred & our history of opression…. We are all equal under god, all capable of loving one another, without the need to hate or to divide.

      PS If you know what im getting at, then maybe you stayed upto 4 in the morning to watch, one unbelievebly gracefull blackman, AKA Barak Obama… give a beautiful speech, that made so many feel equal… in a packed park, white/black together celebrating equality finally!! That is the future… do I want more black, chinese, eastern europeans in this country?? Hell yeah… we’re gonna be a mixed world sooner or later, its time we learnt to get along and share what in truth is everybodys planet. :) :)

    48. Golam Murtaza — on 19th November, 2008 at 6:54 am  

      Hey, Paul at post 32, I’d like to ‘get back to my own people’ too! Could you lend us a few quid for the bus fare to Batley? Cheers!

    49. billericaydicky — on 19th November, 2008 at 8:27 am  

      A bit of background information for those not in the know. The list was published the day after the start of one of the biggest campaigns the BNP has ever launched. 200,000 copies of a six page glossy pamphlet called “Racism Cuts Both Ways” are being mailed out. Every single local councillor will get one as well as government departments and the media.

      The campaign highlights the way that statistics for racial attacks are manipulated to deny that many of the victims of attacks and murderers are white. It is one of the biggest and most expensive that they have ever launched and the release of the lists is designed to undermine the campaign and to deflect attention from it.

      As someone involved in the anti BNP campaign in East London I have mixed feelings about the release of the list. One of the things that has started to come out of the campaigning in Barking, Dagenham and points east is that too much of an overkill actually generated sympathy for the BNP and we certainly reached saturation point in several of the campaigns.

      It is going to be interesting to see what effect this will have on the momentumthat has been building up withing the party over its recent electoral success and regularly attainment of votes in double figures.

      There has been a spate of activities across the country including the recent conference in Blackpool all of which, along with the new leaflet and campaign, have placed a huge strain on resources especially financial ones.

      For quite a long time the party has been technically bankrupt and any downturn in contributions could be fatal. My own feelings are that while the media and sites like this will be crowing that the long term effect could be to make the party look like heroic fighters for their race and nation.

    50. » Get them out! Though Cowards Flinch: “We all know what happens to those who stand in the middle of the road — they get run down.” - Aneurin Bevan — on 19th November, 2008 at 8:28 am  

      [...] on this here, here and here. Posted by David [...]

    51. Trofim — on 19th November, 2008 at 8:45 am  

      To Tomas Foley and others who agree with him:

      And do you know what? I reckon that another device which enables BNP to flourish is the secret ballot. Support for the BNP could be greatly reduced if those who wanted to vote had to go to a special booth for BNP voters, so everyone could see who they are. That would do the trick wouldn’t it. Hang on, we could abolish the secret ballot altogether. Why not? If you support the concept of a secret ballot for all people, regardless of their political views, then it appears to me inconsistent to deny people privacy in their lives otherwise. And conversely, if you do believe that it is right to deny certain people privacy on the grounds that they advocate something which you disapprove of, then it is inconsistent to allow them privacy in the polling booth.

      And to what extent would you extend discrimination against people on political grounds? I once met a nursing student who said she would refuse to participate in the treatment of a member of the BNP. Should BNP members have the same rights to medical treatment as others, seeing as they are so abhorrent? It’s a fair question.

    52. Tomas Foley — on 19th November, 2008 at 9:09 am  

      @ Trofim…

      We are not talking about BNP members being refused medical treatment… I wont even reply on my views on this, because its a comparison, thats another ballpark alltogether.

      You join the BNP.. a messy disjointed organisation, full of people, full of hate, seeking power… you only have to read blogs of their discussions to see how they scheme and plot at each other. The leak was internal, BNP have said that a “disgruntled” former member. So why would you honestly believe, that your data, would be safe in such treturious hands??

      I kind of look at it as fate, like angrily shoving a door that springs back and smacks you in the face. But what pisses me off, is whos on the list. There are 4 reverands alone. I go to church, It angers me that people in a position of trust, support such beliefs. And so im glad the door smacked the BNP and its members in the face. Sometimes in life, things happen its not fair, but its a wake up call. The BNP is a dangerous organisation spreading hate. So yes im delighted this list came out and usually id support privacy, but this smacks of what goes round comes round!!

      Read this article

      http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_060316bnp.shtml

      Its about ‘Reverend’ Robert West, whos on the list… he denies he’s a member of the BNP in this interview… a lie from a man cut from the cloth of God? He’s out there today, actively using his position to spread a message of hate… Its a disgrace and had this list not been published, nobody would be the wiser. Please dont simplify the issue, someone earlier described it as lifting a garden stone and watching the woodlice run from beneath… Im so glad its happened & am sure it was meant to be!! :)

    53. Bert Rustle — on 19th November, 2008 at 9:16 am  

      Trofim 54 Good points.

      Many bloggers are writing that it is fair to publish the addresses of BNP members but they omit to publish their own.

    54. Trofim — on 19th November, 2008 at 9:48 am  

      Tomas Foley:

      a messy disjointed organisation, full of people, full of hate, seeking power . . .

      That description fits a number of left and right wing groups in my book.
      But as I said, if you believe that transparency is good for the BNP, then it follows that it is good for everyone in all circumstances. Why should people vote in secret? What have they got to hide?

      This topic is bringing out the true totalitarian mindset of a lot of lefties, that is, denying to others rights they claim for themselves ad hoc, according to their own preferences. And as for what goes around comes around, well, I say, swings and roundabouts. This will also generate some paradoxical sympathetic indignation on the BNP’s behalf, including among those who never thought they would feel such a thing. I think the concept of equal rights, not only for the nice, but also for the nasty, is deeply embedded in most people’s make-up in this country.
      And incidentally, I find it hard to take seriously the views of someone who can’t spell treacherous. Such semi-literacy says loads about the nature of the speaker.

    55. Trofim — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:03 am  

      Bert Rustle: very good point.
      Tomas Foley: please post your address. You’ve got nothing to hide. You can trust me. Honest.

    56. Tomás Foley — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:08 am  

      Since you refer to the ‘nature of the speaker’ Let me begin by stating the fact that you even needed to highlight spelling mistakes speak as much for yourself also. In psychology, it would be refered to a ‘dysfunctionality complex’. That is to say, you feel from an equal position of conflict the need to find a means to degrade anothers social position, in my case my spelling. Im afraid its indicative of your own views you elude to, but as yet have not stated to be your own. That you consider consider yourself to be superior in some fashion. That of course is the basis for racism, but im sure you understand that.

      I have allready stated that I am in support of a persons right to privacy whatever their political views, despite your inability to grasp that point from two previous posts, it’s ok I guess it was all that “semi-illiteracy”.

      Since the list has been published anyway & in fact by the former treasurer of the BNP as alleged by Nick Griffin… I consider it an invasion of privacy, as a result of their own hatred turning in upon itself. Which in my personal opinion is fate in itself & only good can come from it.

    57. Tomás Foley — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:22 am  

      @ Bert Rustle

      That’s brilliant… I totally agree!! :)

      The new BNP Slogan

      “Please post your address. You’ve got nothing to hide. You can trust me. Honest”

      Your certainly going places with that genius!! ;)

    58. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:28 am  

      I have mixed feelings about this. If the BNP was a real threat I would be more willing to play dirty. But I don’t you can really win the argument by instigating a climate of fear. Those are the tactics of a tyrant.

    59. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:29 am  

      However, I was unable to resist a peek and having imported the data into an excel sheet ;) I was pleased to see no members in London N5, only 1 in N4, and 6 in N15. Also interesting that someone who once worked for a supranational organisation in a conflict zone was also on there.

    60. Shamit — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:32 am  

      The law should equally protect everyone and BNP members are no exception. Especially putting children’s names on the list is just plain dumb and hypocritical.

      Saying that I am concerned about the number of former police officers being members of the BNP and some have suggested they may have been members while serving. That is worrying. I think the Home Office and the House of Commons would be well within their rights to launch an investigation whether these police officers were members of a political party while serving.

      But what gets to me is if you believe in something why hide? Isn’t it sad when you cannot be publicly proud of a political group you are a member of? Seems either you are ashamed or you are scared.

      If one believes in something that strongly that one becomes a member of then one should have the moral courage to stand up for it. Especially, when you think about the crap about moral fibres and characters these idiots sprout out. Sorry dont see much character there in trying to run and hide. I thought standing up for what you believe and fairness is the British way — and the group that claims to be representing the British cause is simply doing the opposite.

    61. Rumbold — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:33 am  

      The legality of linking to it is unclear. David T explains:

      http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/19/do-not-post-links-to-the-bnp-membership-list/

      I don’t think that we should link to it anyway.

    62. Bert Rustle — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:35 am  

      It appears to me that it is not the desire to hide one’s beliefs but rather the desire to protect one’s family and home. Do you recall the multiple cases of intimidation and violence in Northern Ireland? Do those who approve of publication wish to see the same on the mainland?

      How will political debate in the UK be improved by this publication?

      Which organisations should not have their membership details published? Military, teachers unions, vivisectionists, livestock farmers?

    63. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:36 am  

      Apparently Popbitch had it up and had no problems. Also, this list is so widely distributed now that I doubt anything can be done to stop people getting it.

      Anyone know the legality of publishing it on a US blog?

    64. Shamit — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:41 am  

      I think its says something about once the information is in public domain then there is no liability attached to that. I could be wrong but I dont think so

    65. persephone — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:44 am  

      legally i believe it is the aspect of processing sensitive information (which this is). So even if it is an overseas blog, if you are processing it (whether on-line or as bits of hard copy paper format) you may fall foul. Plus the data that is being accessed is UK data on private individuals. You may even be testing the grey areas of data protection law even if you link to it.

    66. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:48 am  

      What’s the law say on emailing people the list?

    67. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:49 am  

      Question is Leon, Sunny et al, do you think PP SHOULD publish it?
      Please don’t hide behind ‘well if it’s in the public domain…’
      I don’t think you should. If you agree, you should say it loud and proud as it would earn you ethical brownie points. And if you don’t, you should give your reasons.

      Remember what happened with the Sun’s paedo witch hunt.

    68. persephone — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:58 am  

      Leon @ 64 if you email a list then you have it on a system which constitutes processing sensitive data which is a no no.

      These private individuals also have not consented to being on such a list (except as to their member orgn & not to anyone else who obtains said list) - again against data protection. If they have asked NOT to be on such a list previously or do so now the data holder has to take them off within a set timeframe. Fines are imposed for non compliance - last I heard this was about £10,000. Ignorance of the DPA act is not a defence.

      This is a guide to the dangers & should not be taken as legal advice.

    69. Shamit — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:02 am  

      Why are we even debating or exploring publishing a list that contains names of children and provides residential addresses?

      To do that would be wrong.

    70. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:03 am  

      Question is Leon, Sunny et al, do you think PP SHOULD publish it?

      No.

    71. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:11 am  

      I do not think publishing the names of ordinary BNP members is the way to fight fascism.

    72. persephone — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:15 am  

      Agree as at #67, as aside to the legal dangers, ethically it would be wrong on many counts.

      And I am no fan of the BNP.

    73. Jai — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:18 am  

      Wouldn’t it be interesting to see if the list contained names of current/former colleagues, both peers and managers ?

      But what gets to me is if you believe in something why hide? Isn’t it sad when you cannot be publicly proud of a political group you are a member of? Seems either you are ashamed or you are scared.

      If one believes in something that strongly that one becomes a member of then one should have the moral courage to stand up for it.

      Exactly. They should have the courage of their convictions and face the consequences, especially as people who claim to be so tough and in many cases deliberately attempt to promote an intimidating image. I’m sure it’s easy to be a racist neo-nazi mofo if you’re not “at risk” in some way (whether we’re talking about jobs, reputation, physical safety, ostracisation, general verbal retaliation etc etc).

    74. persephone — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:24 am  

      “But what gets to me is if you believe in something why hide? Isn’t it sad when you cannot be publicly proud of a political group you are a member of? Seems either you are ashamed or you are scared. If one believes in something that strongly that one becomes a member of then one should have the moral courage to stand up for it.”

      Because like all bullies they are cowards

    75. Bert Rustle — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:25 am  

      El Cid 65 wrote … Remember what happened with the Sun’s paedo witch hunt. …

      Should the home addresses of paedophiles on probation be published? Rapists? Does the public have the right to know the identity of these people?

      Should BNP members have to wear a badge so that people can spot them on sight?

    76. Tomas Foley — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:32 am  

      Come on Bert Rustle… stop asking rethorical questions, just come out and say what you support, after all thats what you support. Earlier on when you had your racist buddy with you #53 you tried to intimidate me

      “Tomas Foley: please post your address. You’ve got nothing to hide. You can trust me. Honest”

      Why not tell it like it is…. im sick of the closet racists, who in numbers get it off their chest, as soon as backs are to the wall, they pretend they dont share the views!!! Makes me sick

    77. Ravi Naik — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:39 am  

      Why are we even debating or exploring publishing a list that contains names of children and provides residential addresses? To do that would be wrong.

      I totally agree. I am somewhat startled that people here are asking whether it is legal or not to publish or link the list. It doesn’t matter! Nor does it matter whether you feel they should come out of the closet! The right of privacy trumps all ideology, and using it to “fight fascism” is just wrong.

      The purpose of publishing the list is so that these people are made vulnerable, and be put in position where they are intimidated, harrassed, assaulted, and whatnot. So we
      are fighting against this type of behaviour against minorities, but we think it is ok to put thousands of people at risk because they exercise their democratic right of supporting a legitimate political party? And NO, you do not get to choose whether the BNP is “legitimate” or not.

      This mob mentality is WRONG. And I am glad that this morning, there are no traces of the list NOR details of that list posted here. We are nothing if we stoop to the lowest level.

    78. Bert Rustle — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:46 am  

      Tomas Foley 74

      I am hoping for rational responses to my questions, as I have participated in some fruitful discussions on PickledPolitics in the past.

      The opinions, beliefs or affiliations of a person who poses a question has no bearing on the validity of that question, whereas the response might have. If you believe otherwise, please provide an example.

      I would appreciate a rational response to any of the spcific points I have raised above.

    79. Tomás — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:46 am  

      Ravi thats a fair post alright… but I ask you to read back to post #50, read the linked article and ask… should people like this not be highlighted for their activities??

      The BNP have proved with attempts to link with UKIP… meetings at Oxford Uni, that the strategy is changing to that of influencing those in positions of trust, more moderate to spread there ideologies. Do you not wonder why the job descriptions were listed in the first place?? Why not just names and address?

    80. anyname4u — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:47 am  

      Hello.
      I need an explanation.
      Why does it have to be a secret the fact that you belong to a political party? If this country permits its existence, I don’t see why you should be worry or scared that others may know what you are?
      Is it a secret the membershio of the Labor Party?
      This reaction only proof that the basement for the existence of the BNP is ilegal. There is a contradiction in these laws: hte laws that permit the BNP to exist, and the law tht forbids make public its members.
      If you are not doing anything wrong, why are you scared, ashamed or worry?

    81. Rumbold — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:51 am  

      Ravi/ El Cid:

      I don’t think that the list should be published, as it should be private. Nor do any of the other writers (those that have spoken up before). The legal debate was to try and stop people linking to it, because of the potential consequences. I don’t see the two as contradictory.

    82. Rumbold — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:53 am  

      Tomas Foley:

      I can’t see any evidnece that Bert Rustle is a BNP sympathiser, by the way.

    83. Tomás — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:59 am  

      @ anyname4u

      I totally agree with you…

      I will say that the reasoning I make for such a secret list, is simply because firstly it demonstates that Nick Griffin totally exaggeratted BNP membership as being 10,000 and secondly as I mentioned in #77 they are actively targetting members from certain professions, in the hope that they can spread their ideoligies by getting trusted people to do their work for them… see the following article on post #50 on one of the listed members, who incidentally denied his membership, tell me that he isnt working on behalf of the BNP in his profession??

    84. Ravi Naik — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:10 pm  

      Why does it have to be a secret the fact that you belong to a political party? If this country permits its existence, I don’t see why you should be worry or scared that others may know what you are?

      Here is an experiment: why are you anonymous? Why not give us your full name, your full address, your telephone numbers?

    85. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:11 pm  

      There is way too much schadenfreude from certain quarters who seem to think that people who lose their jobs because they happen to be a member of a democratic party is justifiable. It’s not. I personally don’t care if this Reverend or that solicitor holds racist views. Nor do I think that outing them is the way to fight fascism in this country.

    86. Sofia — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:19 pm  

      “There is a contradiction in these laws: hte laws that permit the BNP to exist, and the law tht forbids make public its members.”

      I think what is in question is the fact that their addresses etc have been posted. If i was a member of any organisation or even on a mailing list of a magazine, I wouldn’t want my address as public knowledege. However much I hate the bnp, I think the list with contact addresses is wrong.

    87. Sofia — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:20 pm  

      I reckon those 4 reverends may have a larger congregation than normal this sunday???

    88. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:26 pm  

      There is way too much schadenfreude from certain quarters who seem to think that people who lose their jobs because they happen to be a member of a democratic party is justifiable.

      I’ve got no problem with any police offer or teacher losing their job because they’re members of a fascist party (albeit one dressed in democratic clothing). None at all.

      Nor do I think that outing them is the way to fight fascism in this country.

      How very nice and middle class liberal of you. Tell me, how do you think people who’ve been beaten unconscious by BNP types or had shit smeared on their front door should fight fascism?

    89. Ravi Naik — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:32 pm  

      How very nice and middle class liberal of you. Tell me, how do you think people who’ve been beaten unconscious by BNP types or had shit smeared on their front door should fight fascism?

      By outing the personal details of every member and their families, so that they too be susceptible to this kind of attack by anti-BNP types? Here is a bonus question: How do these people fight against anti-BNP types?

    90. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:34 pm  

      Leon, which of the thousands of names that are on the list can you identify as someone who beat someone up or pushed turds through a letterbox?

    91. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:37 pm  

      By outing the personal details of every member and their families, so that they too be susceptible to this kind of attack by anti-BNP types?

      I never said that. There are details which indicate employment, those employers can be discreetly contacted regarding those individuals. Personally (and speaking as someone who had their photos posted on Red Watch for intimation purposes) I’ve no problem fighting fire with fire on this one.

    92. David T — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:52 pm  

      http://spod.cx/bnp_members_list.shtml

      Here is a “heat map” of BNP members - broadly overlaps with population centres, but there is over/underrepresentation in some areas.

      They’ve also plotted (anonymised) BNP members onto Google Maps

    93. Anas — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:56 pm  

      David T(oube), didn’t you once ask not to have your full name revealed in case it caused you trouble at work? (of course everyone knows it now so my giving it in full won’t be of any consequence.)

    94. Dave S — on 19th November, 2008 at 12:59 pm  

      Sid @ 82:

      There is way too much schadenfreude from certain quarters who seem to think that people who lose their jobs because they happen to be a member of a democratic party is justifiable.

      Ahh but Sid, the BNP isn’t a democratic party. It is the very antithesis of a democratic party, which actively seeks to remove the democratic rights of other people based on an arbitrary set of rules about who qualifies and who doesn’t.

      That is the point about the BNP, and it’s the point that they constantly try to muddy with their “democratic” rhetoric.

      The BNP is NOT a democratic party, but an authoritarian fascist party trying to dress itself up as a democratic party.

    95. bananabrain — on 19th November, 2008 at 1:20 pm  

      i agree with sid and ravi. no publication. it is up to the police and so on to follow up on allegations if someone is a member of a political party and aren’t allowed to be. that is a separate issue from publication. leon, i’m surprised at you.

      the BNP isn’t a democratic party. It is the very antithesis of a democratic party, which actively seeks to remove the democratic rights of other people based on an arbitrary set of rules about who qualifies and who doesn’t.

      so is the respect party and anyone else who supports clerical fascism. let’s be even-handed here.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    96. David T — on 19th November, 2008 at 1:21 pm  

      “David T(oube), didn’t you once ask not to have your full name revealed in case it caused you trouble at work? (of course everyone knows it now so my giving it in full won’t be of any consequence.)”

      Well, much of my writing is devoted to to commenting, unfavourably, on the conduct Islamists linked to terrorist organisations.

      I have two very young children, and my wife is very worried that, basically, we’ll be murdered. Remember that in the “dancing slags” case, those convicted of plotting terrorist murders were found with lists of Jewish targets.

      I’ve had security consultants round, of course: but it is frankly very worrying for your family to know that they’re potentially in the sights of terrorists.

      I was “outed” by the SWP activist Richard Seymour. Seymour published my name and details, after I argued that the SWP was promoting a number of racist speakers, and that they were promoting unlawful discrimination, and that accordingly people should not vote for that party in Union elections, if they opposed racism.

      So, now my family has been put at risk, which is a huge pity.

    97. Dave S — on 19th November, 2008 at 1:32 pm  

      bananabrain @ 93:

      so is the respect party and anyone else who supports clerical fascism. let’s be even-handed here.

      I’m an anarchist, which is the definition of even-handedness: nobody has any power over anybody else - not even economic power over anybody else. (Which is where anarchists generally differ from libertarians.)

      I am against all authoritarians, whatever their economic policy.

      (Though I’ll be the first to admit that I detest racist fascist totalitarian statists a bit more than I detest just plain ol’ fascist totalitarian statists.)

    98. sonia — on 19th November, 2008 at 1:39 pm  

      89- david t interesting

      i guess that’s the ‘usefulness’ of this data -seeing hte geographical concentration/and seeing what we can read from that info.

    99. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 1:47 pm  

      Please do not post up links to the list. Any further postings of this type and users will be banned.

    100. David T — on 19th November, 2008 at 1:48 pm  

      It broadly tallies with population density, and not - for example - density of immigration. So say some people who have looked at it on HP.

    101. Dave S — on 19th November, 2008 at 1:52 pm  

      Oh and also, it’s quite amusing to see that the BNP are suddenly all into the EU Human Rights Act when it’s them who are in the firing line for once.

      BBC News piece:

      “[Griffin] told the BBC’s Today programme the party would be using the Human Rights Act to try to protect the identities of its members, despite the BNP being against the European legislation.”

      “Nick Griffin said the leak put party members at risk of violence”

      Well, you know what? Tough!

      The BNP puts millions of ordinary people in the UK at the very real risk of violence, merely by existing. They know this, and are only too happy to keep that threat lingering, because they consider the people they threaten subhuman based on their ancestors, ethnic origin, sexuality, asylum status, social class… you name it.

      Well, now the boot is on the other foot (perhaps even literally), so suck it up, fascists!

      You are the embodiment of a philosophy of violence, and personally, I won’t lose any sleep if a few of you get a taste of your own medicine for a change. Perhaps you’ll even change your ways, now you know what it feels like to be directly targeted in the ways that you are only too happy to employ yourselves. Not very nice, eh?

      Lucky for you, you can change your views. Others aren’t so lucky with their skin colour, sexuality, or need for asylum.

      As the saying goes: “Live by the sword, die by the sword.”

      I’m not in the least bit surprised to learn that a bunch of fascists are hypocritical bastards who are completely blind to their own double standards. (Fascists aren’t exactly renowned for being the sharpest tools in the box, are they?)

    102. Anas — on 19th November, 2008 at 1:58 pm  

      Well, much of my writing is devoted to to commenting, unfavourably, on the conduct Islamists linked to terrorist organisations.

      I have two very young children, and my wife is very worried that, basically, we’ll be murdered. Remember that in the “dancing slags” case, those convicted of plotting terrorist murders were found with lists of Jewish targets.

      I’ve had security consultants round, of course: but it is frankly very worrying for your family to know that they’re potentially in the sights of terrorists.

      I was “outed” by the SWP activist Richard Seymour. Seymour published my name and details, after I argued that the SWP was promoting a number of racist speakers, and that they were promoting unlawful discrimination, and that accordingly people should not vote for that party in Union elections, if they opposed racism.

      So, now my family has been put at risk, which is a huge pity.

      Huh, didn’t you tell the Guardian you were preserving your anonymity in order not to “aggravate your employers”? Anyway, I’m sure you’re anxious for the BNP members on the list who might be fearing for their safety of their families in case of any reprisals and that you will be writing something on Harry’s Place to that effect.

    103. Jai — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:03 pm  

      I’ve got no problem with any police offer or teacher losing their job because they’re members of a fascist party (albeit one dressed in democratic clothing). None at all.

      I’ve got no problem with anyone from any occupational background losing their job because they’re members of the BNP.

      but we think it is ok to put thousands of people at risk because they exercise their democratic right of supporting a legitimate political party?

      They put themselves at risk by joining the BNP in the first place. Let’s place the primary responsibility where it belongs.

      And they’ve exercised their democratic right of supporting a political party which, as others have mentioned, is actually a fascist organisation with the goal of exploiting the democratic process to achieve viciously undemocratic aspirations and the intention to strip certain groups (including “us”, and in this I think it’s clear what I mean, ie. non-white people) of our civil/human rights.

      They will not hesitate to humiliate, attack and disempower us if they sufficiently achieve the level of power and influence to enable them to do so.

      Let’s not forget that before we rush to defend them. They have enough racist supporters to do that, so I think we can appreciate the irony of the BNP being defended by the very people that they hate and wish to destroy, regardless of how well-meaning, admirable and even-handed the intentions behind the acts of “defence” may be.

    104. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:11 pm  

      It may be ironic Jai, but it is also a sign of confidence and intellectual rigour.

    105. Dave Cole — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:23 pm  

      OK, we don’t like the BNP. They are pernicious. I still think it’s wrong to publish the list. It should be possible to be a member of an organisation without having that advertised to the world. If nothing else, it sets a dangerous precedent.

      Firstly, there should be an assumption of privacy of data unless there is compelling reason to the contrary; why should my membership of the RSPB be published?

      Secondly, if the proof of concept of damaging an organisation by releasing its internal details to a waiting media and internet is shown, more people will want to do it. Leaking my membership of the RSPB is unlikely to be a problem, it’s not hard to see how an association with a trades union or the ANL could cause problems for some people if published.

      Thirdly, this has damaged the BNP, which is a good thing. We can retain the moral high ground; there is no need - even if it is interesting - to rub their noses in it.

      xD.

    106. David T — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:25 pm  

      I’m not that sympathetic to the plight of BNP members. BNP members do deserve privacy: what counts is not what a person believes, but what they do.

      However, the BNP is a dangerous organisation. It promotes discrimination against non-whites (or in their words, non “Norse-Celtic-Cornish-Welsh folk communities”). Members of the BNP are attempting to achieve that political end. The BNP physically attacks those who oppose it peacefully.

      By contrast, when I attack White Supremacist, or Islamist fascist groups, I do not place any of their members at risk. I don’t call for them to be sacked from their jobs - in fact, I defend them. I don’t call for them to be physically attacked - I deplore that. I don’t call for them to be imprisoned for their view, unless they incite others to commit crimes themselves - in fact, I have defended Hizb ut Tahrir and David Irving.

      By contrast, these groups would quite happily attack me and my family if they could.

      I don’t think you should draw a fatuous equivalence between somebody trying to politically oppose violent fascist thugs, and those who have joined violent fascist and thuggish parties.

      Obviously, it is unfortunate that a search on my name brings up some pretty slanderous material. However, as those who have attacked me in print include:

      - a man who circulated the writings of Osama bin Laden, and published a racist magazine
      - a fugitive Hamas commander
      - a man who believes that Slobodan Milosevic was murdered by NATO, in order to destroy World Socialism
      - members of some small and nasty trotskyite sects
      - a neo Nazi and former Miss Newcastle

      … I kind of think that my reputation is ok!

    107. Jai — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:25 pm  

      Be that as it may, El Cid, it can also be taken to inappropriately self-destructive (albeit well-meaning) extremes.

      If someone is pointing a gun at you & yours (or indeed at any innocent party), it’s generally a better idea to focus on efforts to disarm them and supporting actions which achieve this in some measure, rather than defending the right of the other party to aim their weapon at you while they’re thinking about how they can inflict the most damage. Especially before they have a chance to pull the trigger.

    108. davecole.org » blog » Blog Archive » The BNP’s epic fail — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:32 pm  

      [...] not going to go over it in fine detail, although I recommend the posts and comments at Pickled Politics, Liberal Conspiracy and these two at the Wardman Wire. The second one deals with legal implications [...]

    109. KB Player — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:34 pm  

      “It may be ironic Jai, but it is also a sign of confidence and intellectual rigour.”

      Well put, El Cid. I worked for the civil service once and a colleague of mine was in a far left revolutionary organisation, in favour of overthrowing the capitalist, imperialist and fascist state that he was working for. I thought it a mark of good sense in the civil service that no-one took his political affiliations seriously and his job was safe.

    110. douglas clark — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:39 pm  

      David T @ 89,

      Just a small comment on that ‘heat map’. Do you not think it’s a bit, err, inflammatory? It will be compared, rightly or wrongly, to say, labours’ electoral chances. It is really not nuanced enough.

      There are, apparently 12,000 odd folk in the BNP. That map makes it look as if they are about to sweep to power. I am Scottish, and up here they appear to be moribund. Yet the map would suggest Glasgow, and to a somewhat lesser extent Fife, are hotbeds of BNP activism. As far as I recall, they didn’t stand a candidate in either Glasgow East or Glenrothes. Just saying.

    111. David T — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:44 pm  

      “Do you not think it’s a bit, err, inflammatory”

      haha!

      I think it is best considered “just a bit of fun”, as Peter Snow used to say.

    112. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:46 pm  

      Let’s not forget that before we rush to defend them. They have enough racist supporters to do that, so I think we can appreciate the irony of the BNP being defended by the very people that they hate and wish to destroy, regardless of how well-meaning, admirable and even-handed the intentions behind the acts of “defence” may be.

      I’m not defending the BNP or their views or their tactics. I hate them and their dangerous politics as much as the next sensible person and I will continue to attack them via this blog and any other outlet. But I can do that without knowing their personal details, their phone numbers, their hobbies etc. We do need to draw the line on singling out ordinary individuals and the potential damage to their private lives.

    113. Anas — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:49 pm  

      I don’t think you should draw a fatuous equivalence between somebody trying to politically oppose violent fascist thugs, and those who have joined violent fascist and thuggish parties

      David, given that one of your central motivations on Harry’s Place seems to be to defend and deflect criticism from the violent fascist and thuggish actions of the Israeli state you’re being deeply hypocritical here. And I’m not going to go into some of the other vile things you’ve been responsible for, e.g., your bullying of Jenna Delich.

      My point about BNP members stands: whatever they may believe, in many cases their families didn’t choose to be affiliated to the party. The same situation stands with you, your pro-Apartheid, pro-War and slaughter stand may well disgust many but you’re entitled to your anonymity. So I’m looking forward to your plea on behalf of the BNP members.

    114. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 2:57 pm  

      We do need to draw the line on singling out ordinary individuals and the potential damage to their private lives.

      Why? To stop the BNP means destroying their capacity to effect change. Outing their members will deplete their resources (especially if said members lose their jobs). It’s also exacerbating further the divisions within the party.

      You can’t pussyfoot around if you really want a different society; sooner or later it’s going to mean conflict of some kind.

      This is politics, this is how it works.

    115. David T — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:01 pm  

      Jenna Delich is an activist in a public sector Union, in which she campaigned for that union to institute an illegal and discriminatory policy. She did so, in part, by circulating material on neo Nazi websites, one of which claimed that Jews controlled the media, and the other one of which claimed that Israel was behind 9/11.

      I think that if you are a political activist, and you circulate racist material, you should be called on it.

      I appreciate that you’re happy to have Jews discriminated against, or subject to racist lies and slanders, and so we’re bound to disagree.

      As you should know from reading my website, all of our contributors are fully in support of the creation of a Palestinian state, and are hugely critical of the Israeli right. I am also in favour of a liberal democratic Middle Eastern federation.

      We also oppose attempts by Hamas to impose a theocracy on the region, or deliberately to murder as many Israeli civilians as possible.

      I hope one day you’ll see things this way, too.

    116. roy — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:10 pm  

      Hey Guys and Girls where can I get this list or a copy of it

    117. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:22 pm  

      “This is politics, this is how it works.”

      Here we go again: Politics as a process, a means to an end.
      Are you a fan of Carl von Clausewitz per chance?

    118. Bert Rustle — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:25 pm  

      Leon 111 wote … You can’t pussyfoot around if you really want a different society; sooner or later it’s going to mean conflict of some kind.

      This is politics, this is how it works. …

      Please address the points I raised in post 60 above.

      Should the membership list of Sinn Féin or the Democratic Unionist Party be published? If not, why not? How about Stonewall or UAF?

    119. David T — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:36 pm  

      Do Stonewall or UAF campaign by putting shit through the letterboxes of ethnic minorities?

      Do Stonewall of UAF spread the lie that Jews are using Blacks to destroy the White Race?

      Where is your perspective?!

    120. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:40 pm  

      Where is your perspective?!

      Indeed.

      Here we go again: Politics as a process, a means to an end.

      Well no one batted an eyelid when I was criticised for suggesting the US shouldn’t be allowed to invade where they like (it’s just real politick I was reminded). I figure the best way to get people’s attention/get them thinking is to point out what I see and know.

      Sid, I really thought you were more aware of the realities of politics than this.

    121. David T — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:50 pm  

      Oh, and the reason that Delich had a hard time, was that Mike Cushman - an LSE academic - wrote to my ISP to get my site taken down.

      When it went down, the censorship of my blog became international news.

    122. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:57 pm  

      Sid, I really thought you were more aware of the realities of politics than this.

      The publication of this list is the result of some internal power grapple between top-level BNP cretins.

      These wankers attack each by the only means they know, the same means with which they attacked their enemies. This is not an exposé, this is an internal BNP fuck-up. And they have affected their own people. This is not politics - this is a dangerous, criminal organisation imploding.

      You could not have appreciated it very much when they initimidated you when they posted your photos on RedWatch.

    123. Kulvinder — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:57 pm  

      You can’t pussyfoot around if you really want a different society; sooner or later it’s going to mean conflict of some kind.

      If you realised the implication of that you’d be ashamed of yourself.

    124. Bert Rustle — on 19th November, 2008 at 3:58 pm  

      David T 116 wrote … Where is your perspective?! …

      My viewpoint is that lawful behaviour is lawful behaviour. On the other hand, I would hazard a guess that the Trade Union movement would not have got started without unlawful behaviour which brings us off-topic to what is just.

      Are you saying that it is not the message of UAF/BNP/Stonewall that is relevant but rather the unlawful behaviour of individuals who are members? If so, why should law abiding members be exposed to the intimidation such as occurs in Northern Ireland for example? Unlawful members will have been successfully prosecuted.

    125. Kulvinder — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:00 pm  

      …this is a dangerous, criminal organisation imploding.

      Please stop with the irritating imbecilic hyperbole.

    126. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:02 pm  

      Please step up to the plate with your own brand of the stuff, as only you know how.

    127. Kismet Hardy — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:11 pm  

      What Dave Cole said on post 102

      I’m not comfortable with the glee that comes from watching wankers squirm. Spunk gets in your eye and all that

    128. Anas — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:14 pm  

      Mmmmm yes David T, no doubt if you’d been around in the 1980s, and had similar allegiances to South Africa you’d have been doing your hateful best to smear advocates of a boycott of apartheid in South Africa as discriminatory too. The moral case for a boycott of a state that is illegally occupying and annexing another and instituting strict racial segregation is so strong that it’s difficult for you and other Israel firsters to challenge it by fair means so you resort to foul. And very predictably you want to paint me as an anti-Semite — unfortunately too many people know me on here for that to work. I myself can’t see too many differences between many of the rank and file of the BNP and you and your lot over at HP: the major one being that while you’re doing your best to support the racist actions of an ethnically defined state which was created and which is maintaining itself through ethnic cleansing, the BNP are dreaming of creating one.

      Your bullying of Delich where you clearly insinuated some kind of significant connection with Neo-Nazis when even your fellow traveller David Hirsch has accepted, as Delich argued, that ‘ [not] knowing who Duke was is a fair enough excuse’, hoping that it would damage her career as an academic as well as sending a warning to other pro-Palestinian activists isn’t really out of character for you. She unwisely tried to have your blog taken offline, but that doesn’t change the fact of your repellent antics that prompted the action.

      Seriously though, Mr T you should be first in the line offering your sympathy to the unfortunate BNP members who’ve had their names published.

    129. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:18 pm  

      So how much influence do you have over Sunny Leon?

    130. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:19 pm  

      You could not have appreciated it very much when they initimidated you when they posted your photos on RedWatch.

      On the contrary. I mentioned it to my employer, I spoke with my family about it (including seeking advice from legally inclined friends and a mate who’s a copper). I thought long and hard about it…but now this rather funny irony!

    131. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:20 pm  

      So how much influence do you have over Sunny Leon?

      Why do you ask?

    132. Ravi Naik — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:21 pm  

      Well no one batted an eyelid when I was criticised for suggesting the US shouldn’t be allowed to invade where they like (it’s just real politick I was reminded). I figure the best way to get people’s attention/get them thinking is to point out what I see and know.

      Actually, the self-defeating strategy of “fighting fire with fire” as you put it, is anything about realpolitik. Realpolitik requires you to look at the big picture, and understand what is essential, and what is not, and use that knowledge to achieve the goal, even if it means abdicating some parts of the ideology.

      And to me, the goal is really to have a vibrant democracy, where reason and intellect trump the politics of fear, intimidation, and victimisation. To me that is a battle worth fighting for: to defeat fanaticism and fundamentalism wherever it lies, and defend a platform of diverse ideas. This is much bigger than the BNP.

      Or if you want the short version, look at #101. What I do not want to see is the other side censored, intimidated, and victim of cheap tactics, because that to me indicates we are after petty revenge, which is hardly a conduit for solving anything.

      You want to fight fire with fire and burn everything down, or eye for eye and keep everyone blind, that is up to you. But do not think for a moment that you are defeating the BNP.

    133. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:22 pm  

      If you realised the implication of that you’d be ashamed of yourself.

      I’m not advocating physical violence.

    134. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:23 pm  

      But do not think for a moment that you are defeating the BNP.

      I don’t think ‘I’ am. But we are yes.

    135. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:24 pm  

      Happy to oblige: because I generally applaud his work but on the few occasions when he has fucked up in my eyes it is because he has adoped a less ethical and tribal position. So?

    136. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:29 pm  

      Happy to oblige: because I generally applaud his work but on the few occasions when he has fucked up in my eyes it is because he has adoped a less ethical and tribal position. So?

      This looks like a bit of a derail, what are you driving at?

    137. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:34 pm  

      Happy to oblige: because I generally applaud his work but on the few occasions when he has fucked up in my eyes it is because he has adoped a less ethical and tribal position.

      I see Leon’s point of view, I just don’t agree with his view on this one issue. Nor do I agree with this word “Tribal” you keep bandying around, as if its some kind of panacea that will make everyone sit up and take notice of your oh-so-resoundingly brilliant idea. What the fuck does it mean and how excactly is Leon being “Tribal”? It sounds like an easy, wraparound one-size label that means nothing at all excqept to you, maybe.

    138. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:35 pm  

      Look I’m not trying to derail anything. This is not the start of an epic polemic, just a brief aside. I’ve tried to be as explicit as possible. I was just trying to see whether Sunny’s occasional swings had anything to do with external influences. I thought I had spotted something that would make more sense of it. If you don’t want to answer my question, then don’t. It’s not important.

    139. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:38 pm  

      I do wish you’d let Leon answer of his own accord first Sid before steaming in.

    140. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:42 pm  

      How is Leon being “Tribal”, El Cid?

    141. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:49 pm  

      Did someone say “derail”?
      I didn’t say he was being tribal on this occasion, did I?
      Think before you answer eh?

    142. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:51 pm  

      Yes Leon?

    143. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:51 pm  

      I’m appalled.

    144. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 4:52 pm  

      Why are you appalled?

    145. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 5:05 pm  

      Whoa!

      I was just puzzled as the question seemed to come right out of leftfield!!

      This is not the start of an epic polemic, just a brief aside. I’ve tried to be as explicit as possible. I was just trying to see whether Sunny’s occasional swings had anything to do with external influences. I thought I had spotted something that would make more sense of it. If you don’t want to answer my question, then don’t. It’s not important.

      I have my own theories (not mentioning it here so don’t ask, you want answers come to a PP meet!) but none of what you consider to be Sunny’s ’swings’ have anything to do with me.

      To be clear, influence is the wrong word to use anyway, I have none with him. He doesn’t seek my council nor do I offer it. The dude’s his own man.

    146. David T — on 19th November, 2008 at 5:06 pm  

      Oh, don’t get me wrong. There’s no excuse for settlement building.

      Neither is there any case for Israel’s continued presence in the West Bank: other than the lesson of the withdrawal from Gaza, which is that an openly genocidal party will coup, and then will spend its time lobbing missiles into Israel, while encouraging the population to believe that God is about to gift them Israel, expel all Jews, and create an oppressive Islamic state.

      This is a VERY different situation from South Africa, as you might appreciate. Here are a few differences:

      1. South Africa involved a minority population oppressing a majority

      2. The ANC did not go in for killing as many South Africans as it could

      3. The ANC did not await a final battle between blacks and whites, in which all whites would be killed: or enshrine any such principle into their constitution.

      And so on.

      David Hirsh issued his partial defence of Delich before he realised that:

      - the article she circulated was not only ON a neo Nazis site: it was also written by a neo Nazi and contained racist lies about Jewish control of the media.

      - this wasn’t a one off mistake. She’d circulated the same sort of racist material before.

      Now, here’s a question for you.

      Why are you so ready to excuse racism, when it is against Jews?

      I understand that you’re opposed to Israeli actions. But do you feel any concern that Gaza is run by an armed militia whose constitution is dripping with genocidal anti-semitism, and which actively and deliberately tries to murder innocent Israeli civilians, whenever it possibly can?

      Because if none of this concerns you, perhaps you have a bit more in common with the BNP than you realise!

    147. El Cid — on 19th November, 2008 at 5:18 pm  

      Thanks Leon.
      Sid, if you feel that strongly about my use of the word “tribal” then maybe you should write something. Try not to sneer too much — well, not too quickly at least ;)
      Like it not we are natural allies in a broader coalition.
      But part of me - that bit which is conscious of my own whiteness and that of my children — is a little alienated by the narrative sometimes adopted by some commenters because it can occasonally seem exclusive, old skool, and not the post-racial future I want for my kids.
      If you are still appalled then maybe you should post something up and we can argue the toss in more detail.

    148. sonia — on 19th November, 2008 at 5:28 pm  

      as kismet hardy says
      .

    149. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 5:39 pm  

      El Cid, I think we’ve reached a cul-de-sac, best walk on opposite sides of the street, so to speak.

    150. Leon — on 19th November, 2008 at 5:44 pm  

      Like it not we are natural allies in a broader coalition.

      Indeed, which is why I’ve always enjoyed your contributions and been a little annoyed when you’ve thrown around abuse about us writers not being working class enough etc.

      But part of me - that bit which is conscious of my own whiteness and that of my children — is a little alienated by the narrative sometimes adopted by some commenters because it can occasonally seem exclusive, old skool, and not the post-racial future I want for my kids.

      Seem exclusive but not intended to be for my part. But I appreciate your context being that I share in it due to my family ties.

    151. Kulvinder — on 19th November, 2008 at 6:17 pm  

      Please step up to the plate with your own brand of the stuff, as only you know how.

      The BNP isn’t a ‘criminal orginisation’; if you want to say you disagree with their philosophy just say so. That doesn’t mean anything in their philosophy is contrary to the law.

      Its as meaningless and distracting as people who disagree with the Respect party declaring it a criminal organisation or violent islamists, not because they are violent islamists but simply because they disagree with them.

      Rhetoric isn’t an argument.

      Aside from that the types of reasons being used to justify support for the publication of this list, or worse the intimidation of those on it shows those people to be little better than the fascists they claim to oppose. Redwatch is abhorent to anyone with an ounce of sense; it is therefore equally abhorent to celebrate the random misery inflicted on people - most of whom probably don’t have anything to do with redwatch - in the implicit name of ‘revenge’.

    152. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 6:27 pm  


      The BNP isn’t a ‘criminal orginisation’; if you want to say you disagree with their philosophy just say so. That doesn’t mean anything in their philosophy is contrary to the law.

      Oh really? You might want to read this

      On Friday morning a young female student was attacked on her way to work by three armed members of the far right. They pulled her to the ground, kicked her repeatedly in the ribs and slashed at her head with a knife. Whilst attacking her they called her “A Dirty red” and “Filthy lesbo”, the latter being a reference to the victims sexuality.

      She suffered a fractured rib and severe bruising, but given the severity of the assault the injuries could have been far worse.

      The attackers singled out this student because she campaigns on her campus to drive out the BNP. The victim is also a member of Unison and the NUS.

      They knew her name and route to work, and deliberately targeted her to intimidate her and others campaigning against the far right.

      The incident has been reported to West Yorkshire Police and they are currently investigating the attack.

      I don’t support the publication of this list where it affects people’s private lives and livlihoods. But to convince me that this “party” is nothing more than a criminal group of thugs, you’ll have to do better than #149.

      Rhetoric isn’t an argument.
      Too right.

    153. Golam Murtaza — on 19th November, 2008 at 6:50 pm  

      Got to see the list today. It includes a local councillor who I’ve dealt with a number of times and comes across as a really nice bloke. It’s DEFINITELY him - same address and phone numbers. I’m shocked, I really am.

    154. Anas — on 19th November, 2008 at 6:55 pm  

      Interesting David T. You’re justifying Israel’s continued occupation of Palestine, with its brutal wholesale mistreatment of the Palestinian population, without doubt an act of terrorism on a massive scale — and of course in complete and flagrant violation of international law — by relatively minor acts of terrorism and violence against parts of Israel. Strange sort of morality.

      You can’t see how the rise of religiously inspired Palestinian parties, your armed militants dripping with genocidal anti-Semitism, and the waves of violence against Israeli civilians (attacks against civilians are without doubt wrong and I condemn them, again people know my position on this here) isn’t the result of over 40 year of brutalization and terror inflicted on the Palestinians? 40 years in which Israel has done its level best to humiliate and destroy the secular voice of the Palestinians, in which every Israeli leader has followed without significant deviation Moshe Dayan’s famous words of advice: “we must tell the Palestinians, that we have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes, may leave” and refused to countenance a withdrawal under the terms of international law.

      No of course you can’t see because you’re sympathy runs short when it comes to the Palestinians. But trust me, if you want the violence to stop, then you remove the number one cause: the occupation, not just of Gaza but of the West Bank too. And even if you don’t think it will stop the violence, Israel has a moral and legal obligation to end the occupation for it is a towering injustice in its own right which as many Israeli peace activists argue is seriously damaging Israel itself.

      Yes, in some respects South African aparthied was a different creature to Israeli aparthied (though in many ways the same, eg Jew only roads). I don’t remember the white South Africans building a wall around the black townships, or conducting anything like the starvation siege of Gaza — which no doubt you think is an appropriate collective punishment for the Palestinians for having democratically chosen Hamas. Of course you like to excuse the genocidal anti-Palestine militancy that drips from Israel on your blog, even if the effects of this militancy are far more serious.

      The whole Delich witchhunt with the insinuations you made in your initial ‘expose’ where you tried to imply she was a neo-Nazi, and your second tenuous attempt to make her out to be some kind of frothing white supremacist is laughable.

    155. Ravi Naik — on 19th November, 2008 at 7:03 pm  

      I don’t support the publication of this list where it affects people’s private lives and livlihoods. But to convince me that this “party” is nothing more than a criminal group of thugs

      There is a difference between “criminal” and criminal as in the eyes of the Law. I think Kulvinder was talking about the latter.

    156. Sid — on 19th November, 2008 at 7:11 pm  

      There is a difference between “criminal” and criminal as in the eyes of the Law.

      And what is that difference exactly?

    157. David T — on 19th November, 2008 at 7:23 pm  

      So, there we have it in a nutshell.

      You’re quite happy to defend racists, terrorist movements that openly proclaim divinely mandated genocide, and people who circulate neo Nazi material
      … as long as it is only Jews they want to kill.

      You know that back in the 1980s, Nick Griffin travelled round the Arab world to get funding for the National Front?

      If only the fascists hadn’t made the mistake of attacking Muslims - you’d have happily joined them. You’d be claiming that the BNP was unfairly being slandered by Zionists.

      Can you deny that? No you can’t. Because here you are, defending a woman who repeatedly circulated racist propaganda written by neo Nazis in the context of Israel/Palestine, and you think she’s a comrade!

      At the moment, I’m looking at Greens who are involved in far right politics. We’ve got one guy in the BNP who was a Parliamentary candidate, one of them who disseminates and defends the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and claims that Mossad “did” 7/7 to frame Muslims. But of course, because he does this in an Israel/Palestine context, the fact that the guy was a raving neo Nazi was completely missed by the nice lefties in the Greens.

      The simple lesson is this. As long as a fascist attacks Jews, remembers to say “Zionists” and talks about Israel a lot, there’s a big chunk of the Left who will defend them against anything. They can repeat the Protocols, claim that Jews run the world, control the media and the banks, are frame others for terrorism - anything really.

    158. Kulvinder — on 19th November, 2008 at 8:35 pm  

      But to convince me that this “party” is nothing more than a criminal group of thugs, you’ll have to do better than #149.

      The BNP is a legitimate political party that has not advocated any acts that are against the law.

      It is not a criminal organisation, it is not banned by law, subject to its entry criteria people are not breaking the law by joining it. When it is banned by law you can call it a criminal organisation, when its properly registered in law, you cannot.

    159. aabi — on 19th November, 2008 at 8:45 pm  

      The leaked BNP members list exposes white Christian racists who would never elect a non-white prime minister; who killed Princess Diana for having a Muslim boyfriend. In order to protect the racists, the BNP list disappeared from the Internet within hours. Anti-Muslims disinformation is available from thousands of websites for years. This only proves, beyond any reasonable doubt, that webpage ban laws only work to protect the white Christian and Jewish American and European racist cowards who are not prepared to be named and shamed, and defend their covert abhorrent race hate and criminal acts on TV for the world. The print/air media, law makers, politicians, judges and the law enforcement agencies help protect the BNP cowards. Registered, legitimate and elected white Christian party and their government officials killed Jews in Germany!

      The BNP members list would help enforce enforcement agencies, judges and juries. Some BNP members have committed criminal acts against non-whites in the UK. They intimidate, harass, assault, burn and kill British ethnic minorities, including that poor unarmed Brazilian guy who looked like a Muslim, gunned down by police in London in 2005. Some BNP members have also published race-hate material against Jews and Muslims on/offline for years and not banned. The BNP has violated Data Protection Act and Human Rights Act, and it may be sued by mental racist BNP members. All that and more is in public interest. Are there any brave bloggers who dare to expose racists in other political parties, businesses, police force, prison service, NHS, judicial system, CPS, etc. etc?

    160. Golam Murtaza — on 19th November, 2008 at 9:03 pm  

      Look aabi, about the death of Diana, you have to understand that….oh I give up. What’s the use?

    161. Anas — on 19th November, 2008 at 9:04 pm  

      So, there we have it in a nutshell.

      You’re quite happy to defend racists, terrorist movements that openly proclaim divinely mandated genocide, and people who circulate neo Nazi material
      … as long as it is only Jews they want to kill.

      WTF?!?!? OK if you’re playing that game (and it is a game you’re playing i refuse to believe you’re being serious at this point): On the basis of your statements Mr T you seem to be someone who’s quite happy to support an ideology which is willing to sanction the genocide and mass starvation of an ethnically undesirable group of people from a land which many of its supporters believe has been divinely mandated for one people. Indeed, the disgusting undertone of your above defense of, and refusal to confront the full reality of Israeli brutality seems to be: that it’s unfortunate we have to do these things to these people — and it’s as a collective, an in indescriminate way that the Palestinians are being punished — but it’s unavoidable.

      You know that back in the 1980s, Nick Griffin travelled round the Arab world to get funding for the National Front?

      Yes and I also know about the overtures the BNP has made to Jews and the support members have given to Israel as a true paragon of a racially segregationist ethnically-defined state.

      If only the fascists hadn’t made the mistake of attacking Muslims - you’d have happily joined them. You’d be claiming that the BNP was unfairly being slandered by Zionists.

      Can you deny that? No you can’t. Because here you are, defending a woman who repeatedly circulated racist propaganda written by neo Nazis in the context of Israel/Palestine, and you think she’s a comrade!

      I think she made quite a few errors of judgement, but this whole thing was of course part of a witch hunt in which you intended to make an example of her on the basis of these 2 documents (you were insinuating her links with neo nazis before you found the second one, so you were sure about her on the basis of that one apparently which says it all) to support your attack on academics who were calling for a boycott of Israel.

      The simple lesson is this. As long as a fascist attacks Jews, remembers to say “Zionists” and talks about Israel a lot, there’s a big chunk of the Left who will defend them against anything. They can repeat the Protocols, claim that Jews run the world, control the media and the banks, are frame others for terrorism - anything really.

      I’m not going to go into the kinds of slaughters you and your friends defend.

      And your repeated attempts to paint me as an anti-Semite are vile and an insult to the Jewish people who have suffered and are still suffering from from actual anti-Semitism the effects of it. These hysterical accusations of anti-Semitism that you and your fellow Israel firsters hurl indescriminately against all critics of Israel really turn my stomach.

    162. Anas — on 19th November, 2008 at 9:36 pm  

      Lol, David T, I think you should contemplate joining the BNP they seem to share your beliefs on certain things:

      Support for Israel

      We support the right of Israel to exist and defend itself against the relentless terrorist attacks of Islamic fanatics. This seems to be what led Ruth Smeed, of the Board of Deputies, to tell the press that: “The BNP website is now one of the most Zionist on the web - it goes further than any of the mainstream parties in its support of Israel.”

      Natural allies

      The BNP has made its position clear many times. We are not ‘Zionists’, our overall concern is to look after the interests of our own country, and not to bother ourselves with or interfere in the affairs of other nations. But we have repeatedly denounced the neo-Nazi cranks who infest the fringes of British politics, and we reject anti-Semitism as part of a dangerous and outdated cycle of last-century hostility between Jews and Gentiles - a hostility that can only benefit our mutual enemy, Islamic imperialism.

      Loyal British Jews are our natural allies in the fight against the Islamic fundamentalists who want to destroy the Western civilisation so many of whose core values we hold in common. That is just one reason why many Jews will be voting for the BNP. ”

      from http://bnp.org.uk/2008/04/the-bnp-and-anti-semitism-a-response-to-the-board-of-deputies/

    163. KB Player — on 19th November, 2008 at 10:41 pm  

      I’m surprised that Anas is reiterating BNP propaganda for them.

      “Loyal British Jews are our natural allies in the fight against the Islamic fundamentalists who want to destroy the Western civilisation so many of whose core values we hold in common. That is just one reason why many Jews will be voting for the BNP.”

      Any loyal British Jews who read this here or anywhere else, don’t believe it. There are plenty of places where you can find what the BNP really thinks of Jews, loyal and British or otherwise. Eg here:-

      http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/12/bnp-white-history-month-whitewashes-history/.

      Remove one of those suits that the BNP has taken to wearing of late and you’ll find a swastika tattoo.

    164. sarah — on 19th November, 2008 at 11:48 pm  

      Im on the list and im not racist at all. I purely joined the bnp because of there views on the buy british to keep british industries working and there views on looking after the elderley, as if it wasnt for my grandparents fighting in the war we would be german, then there would seriously be some race issues!!! Just as muslims dont like been tarred with the same brush as al queda, some members of the bnp dont like to be tarred with the same brush as neo nazi racists. Everybodys views are different. Thats why i joined the bnp, and you haters out there are making it worse for yourselves by making the pathetic phonecalls like the one ive just received. If youve nothing to hide dont withold your number….cowards

    165. douglas clark — on 20th November, 2008 at 12:22 am  

      Whoa!

      Time out! Or something!

      Drink a beer or a lassi, or breath deeply.

      [Could Anas and David T take their Jewish / Muslim antithesis somewhere else? It has nothing to do with this thread, and it makes it far more controversial than I think it needs to be. Not that they aren't making great points. It's just that they have sweet FA to do with the subject in hand.]

      Could everyone else just calm down?

      It seems to me, go on, shout at me too, that we are in danger of forgetting how deeply obnoxious McCarthyism was.

      “Are you, or were you ever a member of the Communist Party of America?”

      Which could well be copied by:

      “Are you, or were you ever, a member of the BNP?”

      That was probably the low spot of the American democracy. It led to a play about witch hunts, called ‘The Crucible’. That, is what you are releasing here.

      I hate the BNP. Let me be absolutely clear about that. Some Americans hated communists with just as much fervour. Don’t make them right, don’t make me right either.

      If we haven’t proscribed the BNP, and we haven’t, then membership shouldn’t mean that they, like Charlie Chaplin or Gypsy Rose Lee should have to find a livelyhood on another continent. That is the realpolitic that Leon speaks of, which is frankly a silencing of voices, whether they are right or wrong. A modern inquisition, if you like.

      I, for one, reject that. They can be flattened everytime they open their mouths. Whether they have a fucking swastika tattoo or not.

      I agree with the disgust, I do not agree with the methods of solving it.

    166. persephone — on 20th November, 2008 at 12:37 am  

      Sarah @64 “as if it wasnt for my grandparents fighting in the war we would be german”

      Not just yours. And as you do not like things to be hidden:-

      If it wasnt for my asian great grandparents & grandparents fighting in several wars (since the 18th century may I add) with the British … etc

    167. douglas clark — on 20th November, 2008 at 12:39 am  

      sarah,

      Fine. You joined the BNP because they support British Industry and old folk. And because your grandparents fought the Germans.

      So, that’s it, is it? They must have been very persuasive, ’cause I doubt you’d find any UK party that thought otherwise.

      Your problem, if I may point it out to you, is that the BNP stands for a bit more than you have subsribed to. You are voting for a wider, and frankly more racist agenda than you seem to think.

      Best wishes.

    168. sonia — on 20th November, 2008 at 12:47 am  

      165. dear douglas, great post!

    169. douglas clark — on 20th November, 2008 at 12:51 am  

      sarah,

      No to mention that it was a “World War”.

      Which meant that a lot of people, with skin colours likely different from your own, fought and died to defeat fascism.

      These folk, the people that helped defeat fascism, are a lot more worthwhile than your slimy leadership, who are nouveau fascists, the exact folk your grandparent fought and died to fight against. You do not remember your grandparents properly.

    170. douglas clark — on 20th November, 2008 at 1:04 am  

      Sonia @ 168,

      Thanks.

      Sorry if I’m going off on one, but to quote myself, (god, I hate that!):

      They can be flattened everytime they open their mouths.

      So, I hope you’ll forgive me for going on at ’sarah’, because freedom of speech includes telling folk they are wrong. Which is my point. I am not frightened of the BNP. I think that they are like a lid on a teapot, where steam get’s let out, to dissipate in the atmosphere. And to not much effect, at all. Long may that be the truth!

    171. Ravi Naik — on 20th November, 2008 at 1:06 am  

      There is a difference between “criminal” and criminal as in the eyes of the Law.

      And what is that difference exactly?

      One is governed by the rule of Sid, and the other by the rule of law.

    172. Bitsy — on 20th November, 2008 at 4:26 am  

      @158 Kulvinder

      You are right. The BNP is a legit party. So while they may never get into power in order to change the laws required to replicate the Nazis’ treatment to minorities in the 30s and 40s, their supporters, especially the rogue elements - those who pounce on minorities with fear, violence, spreading misinformation and generally ruining their lives - won’t need electoral votes to do so.

    173. David T — on 20th November, 2008 at 9:05 am  

      you were insinuating her links with neo nazis before you found the second one, so you were sure about her on the basis of that one apparently which says it all)

      Oh, I’ve got LOTS more on Delich.

      I had it all the way through. Just wanted to see how many people who rushed to her defence would stay the course as I put it all up.

      Think I should post it all? Or do you think that would be disproportionate?

      Bottom line: talk about Nazis - Anas immediate switches the subject to Jews.

      Point this out - Anas immediately starts boohooing.

    174. David T — on 20th November, 2008 at 9:10 am  

      There’s a distinction that can be drawn between somebody who votes for the BNP, joins the BNP or is an activist in the BNP.

      Don’t kid yourself, though. ALL of these people have actively tried to impose a racist nightmare on people in this country. ALL of them did so voluntarily and by choice. EVERYBODY knows that the BNP is a racist party. There’s no excuse for it at all.

      Communists, at least prior to the exposure of Stalin’s crimes, had the excuse that they thought they were working for the betterment of the lot of everybody in society.

      Nazis do not have the excuse.

    175. Bert Rustle — on 20th November, 2008 at 9:43 am  

      David T wrote … Communists, at least prior to the exposure of Stalin’s crimes, had the excuse that they thought they were working for the betterment of the lot of everybody in society. …

      Churchill was aware of the horrors of International Socialism before World War II and I presume that he was not alone.

      I would appreciate it if you could find time to respond to the points I raised to you in posts 124, or indeed if you would care to comment at http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/ruralshire-constabulary-lost-data-scandal/#comment-42751

    176. Anas — on 20th November, 2008 at 11:19 am  

      Oh, I’ve got LOTS more on Delich.

      I had it all the way through. Just wanted to see how many people who rushed to her defence would stay the course as I put it all up.

      Think I should post it all? Or do you think that would be disproportionate?

      Yep, please do. Maybe I was wrong about her, I’d like to see all your secret files.

    177. Trofim — on 20th November, 2008 at 11:44 am  

      David T.

      Communists, at least prior to the exposure of Stalin’s crimes, had the excuse that they thought they were working for the betterment of the lot of everybody in society.

      Ah, but ultimately, just about everybody who has attempted to carry out a comprehensive utopian/ revolutionary change to society, believed that it is for the best. I’m afraid Stalin and Hitler believed that ultimately what they were doing was for the good of future generations, ditto Mao, Pol Pot etc. etc. For them, the ultimate good society justified a few temporary adverse effects. You know, road to hell, good intentions. This is why I believe that all change is best done by what Popper called piecemeal social engineering - make a little change, give it time, check the results. If no harm, try another little bit. If detrimental, leave well alone, or reverse the bad change and try something else.

    178. Jai — on 20th November, 2008 at 11:50 am  

      Sarah,

      Just to extropolate what Persephone and Douglas said in #166, 167 and 169, I should also mention that you should perhaps do some reseach on the actual numbers of Indian soldiers who fought against the Axis powers in WW2 (and the number of medals for gallantry they were awarded).

      It was the largest volunteer army in recorded human history.

      ****************************

      Douglas is also correct in stating that the ideas that the British military at the time fought against are now represented by the BNP. The latter’s ideology is indeed much closer to that of the Nazis.

      There is, therefore, a certain irony in them using the name “British National Party”, when in reality they represent the very concepts that were embodied by the German forces defeated by your grandparents’ generation.

    179. Bert Rustle — on 20th November, 2008 at 11:55 am  

      Jai 179 Did not Indian soldiers also fight for the Japanese? If so, were they volunteers, conscripts or mercenaries?

    180. Anas — on 20th November, 2008 at 12:10 pm  

      it wasnt for my grandparents fighting in the war we would be german,

      Wow to go in two generations from fighting the Nazis to voting for them and even joining them!

    181. Jai — on 20th November, 2008 at 12:23 pm  

      Jai 179 Did not Indian soldiers also fight for the Japanese? If so, were they volunteers, conscripts or mercenaries?

      Bert, since you’re referring to Subhash Chandra Bose’s efforts, the answers to your questions are freely available on the internet. You might want to start with “Indian National Army”, which was predominantly composed of Indian prisoners-of-war.

      They were, however, massively outnumbered by the number of Indian soldiers who fought on the side of the Allies, which reached a maximum of over 2.5 million men and comprised the largest volunteer force of any country during WW2. They were also awarded 30 Victoria Crosses.

      Further detailed information on the Indian contribution to the Allied effort can be found here:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_in_World_War_II

      Indian soldiers were particularly involved in the following:

      Mediterranean, Middle East and African theatres of World War II:
      East African campaign
      North African campaign: Operation Compass, Operation Battleaxe, Operation Crusader, First Battle of El Alamein, Second Battle of El Alamein.
      Anglo-Iraqi War
      Syria-Lebanon campaign
      Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran
      Italian campaign: Battle of Monte Cassino
      Battle of Hong Kong
      Battle of Malaya
      Battle of Singapore
      Burma Campaign: Battle of Kohima, Battle of Imphal

    182. Bert Rustle — on 20th November, 2008 at 12:34 pm  

      jai 182 Thank you.

      In the case of the Irish Republic, reportedly many of those who volunteered for the British Army did so to fight Hitler, rather than for Britain.

      Have you any information on this issue regarding Indian soldiers?

    183. persephone — on 20th November, 2008 at 12:50 pm  

      Bert @ 183 “reportedly many of those who volunteered for the British Army did so to fight Hitler, rather than for Britain. Have you any information on this issue regarding Indian soldiers?”

      Indian soldiers volunteered to fight with the British at least 60 years before sight of Hitler. Several were also assigned as personal bodyguards to Queen Victoria (in and outside of war time).

    184. Jai — on 20th November, 2008 at 12:55 pm  

      Bert,

      That link I supplied would be a good starting point.

      Also, PP’s American equivalent, Sepia Mutiny, has previously included numerous articles on India’s military involvement in WW2, so I would suggest you check those out for further information, either via Google or by accessing SM’s archives directly. Various books on the subject are also available via Amazon.

      The Indian Army’s own website also has a short article on the subject:

      http://indianarmy.nic.in/secondworld.html

    185. KB Player — on 20th November, 2008 at 1:00 pm  

      Sarah at 164

      “Im on the list and im not racist at all. I purely joined the bnp because of there views on the buy british to keep british industries working and there views on looking after the elderley, as if it wasnt for my grandparents fighting in the war we would be german, then there would seriously be some race issues!!!”

      Sarah - if you are not a racist, why are you in the BNP, which is a racist party? You may sincerely believe you are not a racist but if you join a party that is racist everyone will believe you are one.

      As for British industries - that’s in everyone’s interests that they keep going.

      As for your grandparents, good for them, and good for my father, who fought in the same war. The people they were fighting had the same kind of beliefs as the BNP has, that is that countries should be racially pure.

      “Just as muslims dont like been tarred with the same brush as al queda, some members of the bnp dont like to be tarred with the same brush as neo nazi racists.”

      Of course all Muslims shouldn’t be tarred with the same brush as those in Al Qaeda. Very few Muslims are in Al Qaeda. But those who join Al Qaeda or similar movements have to face the consequences that most of their fellow citizens think they are up to no good and are afraid of them. If you join BNP other people immediately think you are up to no good and are afraid of you. Non-whites are especially afraid of you, as members of the BNP, or parties like it, have attacked them physically or put shit through their letter boxes.

      “Everybodys views are different. Thats why i joined the bnp, and you haters out there are making it worse for yourselves by making the pathetic phonecalls like the one ive just received. If youve nothing to hide dont withold your number….cowards.”

      I don’t think your name and address and phone no should have been put on the internet, and according to the leader of your party, it was one of the ex BNP members who did that, out of spite. I would suggest you stop belonging to a party whose members can act in that way. And you shouldn’t be harrassed by phone calls and I agree that the people who do so are horrible.

    186. Bert Rustle — on 20th November, 2008 at 1:12 pm  

      Jai 185 Thanks again. I asked as you raised the topic and appeared informed. I will save your links for future reference.

    187. Jai — on 20th November, 2008 at 1:38 pm  

      No problem Bert, glad I could help.

    188. persephone — on 20th November, 2008 at 2:01 pm  

      Sarah @164 ” I purely joined the bnp because of there views on the buy british to keep british industries working and there views on looking after the elderley ”

      But do you as a member know if your membership fee, donations etc do go towards meeting these aims? Do the BNP provide you with a detailed breakdown of how the money is spent? From seeing reports about the irregularities of the last BNP formal report & acounts I know I would insist on this if I were a member - see link to view coverage on their last accounts:

      http://www.ukwatch.net/article/bnp_accounts_don%E2%80%99t_add_up

      From these reports it seems that the BNP does not know either. And to cover this up the people at the helm are pursuing an internal blame culture.

      I wonder if this was what you in fact signed up for.

    189. persephone — on 20th November, 2008 at 3:47 pm  

      it would be good practice to delete the content at @189.

      Has the writer put this content on to get this site in hot water? Cynical moi?

    190. Leon — on 20th November, 2008 at 4:16 pm  

      Comment deleted.

      I say again:

      Any linking to or posting up contacts from that list will result in a ban from the site. This applies to new commenter’s to people who’ve been here from day one.

      Any attempt to cause PP legal trouble over this will not be tolerated.

    191. Golam Murtaza — on 20th November, 2008 at 4:54 pm  

      Sarah from post 164 has gone a bit quiet. Wonder why?

    192. anyname4u — on 20th November, 2008 at 6:09 pm  

      @ Tomas 83.

      You seem as a very good and understanding person. I really enjoy reading your comments.

      I am white and I’m married to a British-Pakistani man, and let me tell you that I had people “burping” at me in at Tescos, ( I was 6 month pregnant) while they walked next to us, because I’m white and a marry someone from a different background!!! I cannot tell how can this make you feel!
      But I feel as I said to you before, that if a country like Uk forbids and make “ilegal” being racist,make racist comments, supporting racism in any way…. how can they let this political party exist?
      How do they conciliate these two opposite ideas? I don’t get it. And I have a law degree! Thank you.

    193. Don — on 20th November, 2008 at 7:33 pm  

      Anyname4u,

      It’s more a matter of privacy than secrecy. The Labour party does have such a policy

      http://www.labour.org.uk/privacy

      as do the other parties. Obviously, the BNP have more concerns than the other parties as many of their members seem to be fully aware of the odium with which most people regard them and are more reluctant to have their membership widely known. They would probably claim that the possibility of active persecution by hard line opponents is the issue, and to be fair there may be an element of truth in that.

      It isn’t illegal to be a racist, but certain public expressions of racism may fall foul of the law. Griffin and others skirt around this by being careful of what they say in public, as test cases have shown.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2006/nov/11/broadcasting.farrightpolitics

      It is often the case that those who would destroy freedoms are parasitical upon them. It’s annoying, but it’s a price worth paying.

    194. persephone — on 20th November, 2008 at 7:35 pm  

      @ 191 she’s gone to get a beer from the late nite indian corner shop, y’know in support of her aim to “buy British & keep British industries working”

    195. Kismet Hardy — on 21st November, 2008 at 10:14 am  

      You missed out Muffin the Mule. He was the original Geheime Staatspolizei

    196. david adams — on 21st November, 2008 at 10:31 pm  

      nice comment by Tomas Foley.

      Just thought i’d say i’ve seen the list as a torrent, no going back now!

    197. Laura — on 28th November, 2008 at 11:05 pm  

      For goodness sake!!

      I want the list!!….someone…pleaassee send me a link if u can…it is really important!

      I am so glad these racist b**stards are exposed..

    198. SE — on 6th January, 2009 at 6:19 pm  

      These people have a right to be exposed and attacked, i don’t care if they’re a family:

      Don’t be a BNPer, simple as that. Someone has to teach these degenerates a lesson.

    199. Anthony D Jones — on 14th January, 2009 at 12:43 pm  

      SE (198)

      You prove the BNP’s arguement. You prove that there are people who will use physical violence against them.

      One question. Will you actually get YOUR hands dirty or will you stand by while someone else does it?



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