89 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Chris  |  February 7th, 2006 at 2:56 pm

    Didn’t our wonderful police block streets in order to allow Hamza to continue preaching in the street?

    Perhaps they should be tried as accessories…??!

  • 2. El Cid  |  February 7th, 2006 at 3:40 pm

    Jeez,
    I guess that means the cameras will be there when I get home tonight.
    For a laugh, I might buy a tea-towel and cover my face, and give it the al-Mujaharoun styleee, see if I can look a bit dodgy and lure some of the journos. I’m sure I’ve got a hood somewhere.

  • 3. Steve M  |  February 7th, 2006 at 3:49 pm

    He’s been given 7 years. That seems pretty feeble.

  • 4. Bikhair  |  February 7th, 2006 at 3:57 pm

    Pickled Pinkos,

    Its so funny, I know a brother from Birmingham, a Salafi brother who made dua against this guy. I wouldnt if that would be considered inciting violence againt the Captain. I ask Allah to guide this guy or break his neck.

  • 5. El Cid  |  February 7th, 2006 at 4:03 pm

    Hey Colonel, where are you?
    How about you get in your burkha and I wrap up in a keffiah n hood, and we get some placards with slogans like “Bring back Brookside”, “Free Nelson Mandela” or maybe just a simple “?”, and stand outside Finsbury Park mosque and get on the TV!!!
    I’m sure we can come up with a few more risque ones.
    A bit of comedy anarchy.
    What d’ya say?

  • 6. El Cid  |  February 7th, 2006 at 4:04 pm

    Admit it’s tempting PP’ers!

  • 7. Sunny  |  February 7th, 2006 at 4:07 pm

    Haha! great idea El Cid!

  • 8. Steve M  |  February 7th, 2006 at 4:11 pm

    Is ‘incitement to laughter’ an offence?

  • 9. El Cid  |  February 7th, 2006 at 4:13 pm

    How about: “Islam is taking over your TV”

  • 10. Jay Singh  |  February 7th, 2006 at 4:19 pm

    We need a No Islam On TV Day

    Where there are no news items about some fighting or controversy - just one day. Give everyone, Muslims and non Muslims, a break.

    Just for one day.

  • 11. Col. Mustafa  |  February 7th, 2006 at 4:28 pm

    hehehhe@El Cid.

    Im there dude.
    We should get a few more people to dress up too.

  • 12. Col. Mustafa  |  February 7th, 2006 at 4:29 pm

    Not sure how that became a link.

  • 13. Siddharth  |  February 7th, 2006 at 7:23 pm

    So glad to see they jailed the ultimate Muslim cartoon.

    But what is the Current Bun going to do now whenever it needs to wheel out a “Scarey Muslim” on the occassion it needs to frighten the readers?

  • 14. j0nz  |  February 7th, 2006 at 7:30 pm

    placards with slogans like “Bring back Brookside”, “Free Nelson Mandela” or maybe just a simple “?”, and stand outside Finsbury Park mosque and get on the TV!!!

    El Cid that would be comedy genius.

  • 15. j0nz  |  February 7th, 2006 at 7:33 pm

    El Cid, you’ve give me plenty of ideas to gatecrash Saturdays rally at Trafalgar.

  • 16. Old Pickler  |  February 7th, 2006 at 8:25 pm

    But what is the Current Bun going to do now whenever it needs to wheel out a “Scarey Muslim” on the occassion it needs to frighten the readers?

    Bikhair?

  • 17. Siddharth  |  February 7th, 2006 at 8:26 pm

    She’s gorgeous.

  • 18. pounce  |  February 7th, 2006 at 8:28 pm

    Well Hamza has been sent down. Hopefully that even bigger twat Griffin and his sidekick will follow when they are back in court. I just hope that Hamza is made to share a cell with a load of Bible bashing Idiots and when Griffin follows he is forced to share with the biggest Islam thug going.

  • 19. Old Pickler  |  February 7th, 2006 at 8:40 pm

    Actually, a kind of Big Brother House with Cap’n Hook, George Galloway, Nick Griffin and that irritating lawyer called Gareth even though she’s a woman would be really good.

  • 20. Siddharth  |  February 7th, 2006 at 8:46 pm

    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    You watch your friends
    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    It never ends
    You know that it’s crazy
    You want to trust her
    Then somebody hangs up when you answer the phone
    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    You go it alone

    oops, thats Doctor Hook.

  • 21. jamal  |  February 7th, 2006 at 8:46 pm

    it was bound to happen. I dont think he’ll be allowed the hook in their though!

  • 22. El Cid  |  February 7th, 2006 at 9:31 pm

    Damn. Had to take the kids swimming. Missed my opportunity.
    Pounce, I suggest it would be better if a) Hamza shared a cell with Hulk-like queen with a Graham Gooch tash and b) Griffin’s daughter married a Muslim while he was inside.

  • 23. Old Pickler  |  February 7th, 2006 at 9:46 pm

    Here’s a good sign:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690132.stm

    “Muslim leaders have welcomed the conviction of controversial cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri for inciting murder and stirring up racial hatred.”

    We need to hear more of this, instead of all this whingeing about victimisation.

  • 24. jamal  |  February 7th, 2006 at 9:47 pm

    Or if Nick Griffin had been imprisoned and his daughter met Abu Hamza during a prison visit. Later getting married to hamza and after his extradition became a drugs mule for drug dealing protestor Omar Khayam, who in turn sold the supply to the BNP losers.

  • 25. jamal  |  February 7th, 2006 at 9:53 pm

    Hamza was an idiot, and I fully condemn him. I also think Griffin is an idiot, condemn him to, and agree with the following from that article;

    “Mr Shadjareh (chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission) said the conviction of Abu Hamza, coming as it did only days after BNP leader Nick Griffin was acquitted of two charges of using words intended to stir up racial hatred, might increase the perception in the Muslim community that freedom of speech was selective.

    “This is not to say that Abu Hamza was not a controversial figure within the Muslim community but it does suggest that controversial figures in one community might get treated differently than others,” he added.”

  • 26. El Cid  |  February 7th, 2006 at 9:54 pm

    Where’s the balance In your scenario Jamal? Would suggest following addendum: Ms Griffin and Hamza have baby boy who turns out to be second coming of the Messiah, or is that just silly.

  • 27. Bikhair  |  February 7th, 2006 at 9:58 pm

    JAmal,

    “Or if Nick Griffin had been imprisoned and his daughter met Abu Hamza during a prison visit. Later getting married to hamza and after his extradition became a drugs mule for drug dealing protestor Omar Khayam, who in turn sold the supply to the BNP losers.”

    Sounds like two peas in the multicultural pod.

  • 28. Guvnor  |  February 7th, 2006 at 10:13 pm

    “Mr Shadjareh (chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission) said the conviction of Abu Hamza, coming as it did only days after BNP leader Nick Griffin was acquitted of two charges of using words intended to stir up racial hatred, might increase the perception in the Muslim community that freedom of speech was selective.

    “This is not to say that Abu Hamza was not a controversial figure within the Muslim community but it does suggest that controversial figures in one community might get treated differently than others,” he added.”

    —————————————————————————

    Didnt see this one coming days ago. Nick Griffin, wanker he is, along with Mark Collett, shouldnt have even been in court for what they said. Now as any good muslim victim will say “one rule for the west another for islam” what self pitying crap. The law is pretty clear cut. In order however to please mainly muslims (probably also knowing full well there was the Hamza trial coming up) they tried to put Griffin and Collett on trial when they had nothing to even charge the pair with.

    Farce it was it got kicked out. Yes, they said “Islam is a wicked religion” and pointed out the none niceties of what some Muslims get up to, to make them look bad, but sadly they were not as stupid as Hamza who gave people full instructions on how to kill infidels. Surely even a muslim can work out this difference? I fear no. To much comfort being a victim. Just be grateful they took Griffin and Collett to court for the entertainment of muslims, there was no case to answer in all honesty.

    Hamza, Im sorry to say, just happens to be bang to right. And I know it seems like it always happens to muslims, but, well it always seems like muslims are going out doing these things. So from time to time some are going to get sent down. 2 fucking years he will be out in, the sentence was a joke. so take some comfort in that. Griffin and Collett would have got at least 20 faced with the same evidence.

  • 29. seanT  |  February 7th, 2006 at 10:41 pm

    Have to say I agree with the Guvnor, whoeever he is, and he may be a Klansman, in which case I offer my embarrassment pre-emptively.

    Griffin is far too smart (and serpentine) to say anything convictable, even in a private meeting.

    So he called Islam a wicked, vicious faith. That may be rude and shameless, but it’s matter of opinion. Same goes for his opinions on Stephen Lawrence, multiculturalism, the Koran, etc. He never incited violence.

    Griffin’s was a show trial. There was never much chance of a conviction, zero chance now after the Friday demos.

    Hamza, by contrast, DID incite violence. And he was found with ‘terrorist-related’ materials.

    This is NOT a conspiracy against Muslims; just two different cases. Important to remember.

  • 30. j0nz  |  February 7th, 2006 at 10:49 pm

    1. Guvnor is no Klansman

    2. I suppose it’s just my right-of-centre political views… But isn’t what SeanT says just, well bloody , obviously true?! I fail to see how a left-winger or otherwise can dispute #29 (but I know through experience they will).

  • 31. Kulvinder  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:02 pm

    Obviously you’ve probably already gathered that i think vocalising a thought not matter how hatefilled shouldn’t be illegal.

    Like Siddharth im curious who the presses’ public enemy #1 will now be.

  • 32. Kulvinder  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:05 pm

    lol

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690224.stm

    You are entitled to your views and in this country you are entitled to express them, but only up to the point where you incite murder or use language calculated to incite racial hatred. That is what you did.

    No one can say now what damage your words may have caused - no one can say whether any of your audiences, present or wider, acted on your words

  • 33. j0nz  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:09 pm

    Like Siddharth im curious who the presses’ public enemy #1 will now be.

    I don’t know…maybe some fool who incites people to murder people in this country? What would you prefer?

  • 34. j0nz  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:11 pm

    Sorry, K, dude I don’t get your amusement. Apologies if I haven’t been following closely enough…

  • 35. Guvnor  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:20 pm

    what the hell is a Klansman??? lol although i do not know who seanT is, i am pleased to know he agrees with me :)

  • 36. Old Pickler  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:24 pm

    2 fucking years he will be out in, the sentence was a joke. so take some comfort in that

    Not quite. He faces extradition to the US and may, inshallah, end up in Gitmo:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690428.stm

    It isn’t often, if ever, that I say inshallah, but I think Cap’n Hook’s gitmo-isation warrants it.

  • 37. PhatBoy  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:30 pm

    Guvnor - a Klansman is a member of the KKK.

  • 38. Guvnor  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:30 pm

    “Not quite. He faces extradition to the US and may, inshallah, end up in Gitmo:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690428.stm

    It isn’t often, if ever, that I say inshallah, but I think Cap’n Hook’s gitmo-isation warrants it. ”

    ———————————————————————-

    Yes, but I am not holding out too much hope with European Human rights and all of that.

    As for his captain hook and theroies on how he ended up looking like what he did. I reckon on he stole something pretty major in a very strict Islamic country where he got his hands chopped off as a punishment..

    They one day when he was picking his nose, his hook slipped and he poked his eye out by accident ;)

  • 39. Guvnor  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:31 pm

    Cheers Phatboy for that, It makes sense of where the word comes from.

    Sounded more like a German footballer who used to play for Spurs. Im good, but not that good at football.lol

  • 40. Siddharth  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:34 pm

    I don’t know…maybe some fool who incites people to murder people in this country? What would you prefer?

    Some fool like Nick Griffin?

  • 41. Kulvinder  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:35 pm

    Sorry, K, dude I don’t get your amusement. Apologies if I haven’t been following closely enough…

    We’re living in a surreal time when you can be convicted for inciting others even though the judge(!) cannot actually say if you did incite anyone or if your words had any impact whatsoever.

    At this point id like to shout ‘DOWN WITH THE MONARCHY!’ and await detention in Paddington Green whilst they calculate my prison term for inciting/not inciting/possibly inciting someone somewhere. Maybe.

    Incidently im obviously against any of this, but this must apply to griffn!

    use language calculated to incite racial hatred. That is what you did.

    No one can say now what damage your words may have caused - no one can say whether any of your audiences, present or wider, acted on your words

  • 42. Siddharth  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:35 pm

    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    It’s hard
    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    You know it’s hard
    Everybody wants her
    Everybody loves her
    Everybody wants to take your baby home

  • 43. Guvnor  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:43 pm

    Saying “Down with the Monarchy” would I doubt be called incitement. It is a phrase that can easily by talked away as a phrase to signify that given the vote on a monarchy you would vote to bin it.

    Slightly different from “Behead those who slander islam” or whatever the exact quote was.

    “use language calculated to incite racial hatred. That is what you did.

    No one can say now what damage your words may have caused - no one can say whether any of your audiences, present or wider, acted on your words ”

    The difference is that it was prooved in a court of law about the actions of very clear incitement which was not legal. However even though on a technicality you could say Griffin is doing the same and I would be inclined to agree, he like many Islamic extremist also in this country are cleverly skirting around by using loopholes in the law. There is no ‘religious incitement’ law, there is an ‘incitement to kill’. Griffin has not told anyone (or been caught telling anyone) to ‘kill’ anyone. Hamza has.

    Added to that connections between Finsbury Park and the likes of the shoe bomber there is a stack of clear and also circumstancial evidence that backs up the statement quoted on behalf of Hamza.

  • 44. Siddharth  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:46 pm

    It isn’t often, if ever, that I say inshallah, but I think Cap’n Hook’s gitmo-isation warrants it.

    I’d love to see Nick Griffin and the other sewer rat in Gitmo orange fatigues. Denied all access to lawyers, outside contact and entertainment. A daily regime of having the shit kicked out of him every day, intersperced with Koran recitals and prayers. Followed by another round of beatings. Ahh, character forming stuff.

  • 45. Siddharth  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:47 pm

    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    You go it alone
    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    You watch your friends
    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    You watch her eyes
    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    You keep looking for lies

  • 46. Kulvinder  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:47 pm

    Saying “Down with the Monarchy” would I doubt be called incitement. It is a phrase that can easily by talked away as a phrase to signify that given the vote on a monarchy you would vote to bin it.

    Slightly different from “Behead those who slander islam” or whatever the exact quote was.

    Oh im sorry, my mistake.

    ID LIKE TO SEE QEIIs HEAD ON A FUCKING PIKE MOUNTED ON THE UNUSED PLINTH IN TRAFALGAR SQUARE.

  • 47. Old Pickler  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:48 pm

    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    It’s hard
    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    You know it’s hard

    Snigger snigger.

  • 48. Siddharth  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:50 pm

    Griffin has not told anyone (or been caught telling anyone) to ‘kill’ anyone. Hamza has.

    The links to the Admiral Duncan bombs, and the ones in Brick Lane and Brixton are tenuous indeed. But no more tenuous than those that link Dr Hook to 7/7.

  • 49. Guvnor  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:53 pm

    “ID LIKE TO SEE QEIIs HEAD ON A FUCKING PIKE MOUNTED ON THE UNUSED PLINTH IN TRAFALGAR SQUARE.”

    I think that might just get you arrested if you turn it into a banner and parade it around London ;) Although some would complain if you had to remove that Lapper woman from the other plinth.

    Actually, u may just get around it again on a technicality here. You have still not directed people to kill, you have merely pointed out a preference. It may not even be the queens real head either. Possibly just one taken from Madam T’s

    You need to be more direct still. Nearly there though.

  • 50. Siddharth  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:53 pm

    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    You watch her eyes
    When you’re in love with a beautiful woman
    You look for lies
    Everybody tempts her
    Everybody tells her
    She’s the most beautiful woman they know

  • 51. Guvnor  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:54 pm

    Siddharth - Either way it has no real addition to the point. Hamza going down had nothing to do with 7/7. It was cos he went around telling people to kill none muslims etc.

  • 52. Gordon Layton  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:56 pm

    On the previous (now defunct) thread Siddharth says something really interesting: “I was a contemporary of the time that Muslim students and “yoot” were going through a politicisation along with a search for identity. To find themselves and their role as 2nd and 3rd generation British Asians. They were the heady days of Londonistan.

    I too went through some kind of psychic and spiritual crisis back then. But in my search for the ‘Islamic Way’..”

    I’m really interested in this issue of a crisis of identity for the children and grandchildren of immigrants. I’ve long believed that 7/7-type activities are the product of a specifically Western set of circumstances and owe more to the psychology of alienation and search for meaning we saw at work in the (fascist) Oklahoma and Soho atrocities than anything to do with Yemen, Afghanistan, etc.

    Obviously, only a tiny proportion of those who undergo a crisis of identity end up as violent extremists. I wonder if Siddharth or anyone else here can explain why they became alienated, felt they didn’t fit in and how they resolved these issues?

  • 53. BevanKieran  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:56 pm

    In tomorrow’s newspaper it will show that three of 7/7 bombers went to his lectures. His type of hate speech should be illegal or muffled .

  • 54. Old Pickler  |  February 7th, 2006 at 11:56 pm

    Hamza going down ….

    Snigger snigger.

  • 55. Guvnor  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:00 am

    “ID LIKE TO SEE QEIIs HEAD ON A FUCKING PIKE MOUNTED ON THE UNUSED PLINTH IN TRAFALGAR SQUARE.”

    However this could be classes as treason, without the ‘incitement’ being anything to do with it.

    But most importantly I think it points out the technicalities to what ‘incitement’ is and what is ‘free-speech’. Ok so they would probably find it easier doing you for treason than ‘incitement’. This is a good example of the 2 fold arguments between why it seems a little one sided when actually it is perfectly fair

    1 - the bnp v hamza arguments
    2 - the cartoon v protestor banners arguements

  • 56. Venichka  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:00 am

    I’m not used to agreeing with j0nz or seanT - but damn it, they’re right. must be the more mellow atmosphere this way that does it.

  • 57. Guvnor  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:01 am

    Gordon - From what you have stated, it seems you have already drawn your own conclusions.

  • 58. Kulvinder  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:04 am

    However this could be classes as treason, without the ‘incitement’ being anything to do with it.

    Thank you for your legal opinion, ill just say ‘meh’ ’cause i don’t think anyone can claim they know what they’re on about. Ill just wait to see what the CPS does regarding Griffin.

  • 59. Siddharth  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:09 am

    Gordon Layton: Well there’s more to your question than space allows on a discussion board. I also wouldn’t want to inflict my personal shit on the good people here. Suffice to say, I can only speak for myself and not as a spokesman for the general malaise that afflicts the children of immigrants.

    Mine was not the typical immigrant’s song of a search for identity -as such. My crisis was to do with a culmination of being disillusioned with popular culture, a search for spirituality and the effect of taking lots of drugs. I was also very contemplative, reflective and inordinately good looking.

    Not so much now though. But nothing mends broken hearts like a good loving relationship and earning loads of money in Fund Management. ;-)

  • 60. Guvnor  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:11 am

    they will probably try him again and it will be laughed out of court again. there is no conspirecy, just that if it ain illegal, there is nothing to go down for. Simple as that. Same for Hamza, if they had not got him bang to rights breaking the laws, then no matter what a peice of scum he is, he would have walked free.

    I think a lawyer can tell you what their on about. The CPS will probably press for taking them to court again, but it will be a waste of tax payers money if they do. CPS will be pissed off so will naturally want to get a result. It really was a joke it went to court at all based on what evidence there seemed to be. Remember, the CPS are NOT the law.

    It is what that Jury decides along with the directions from the judge based on the law that matter.

  • 61. Sunny  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:19 am

    Bastard Kulvinder, what you trying to do? Get my ass sued?? :|

    I was having this discussion not over an hour ago with a mate. I’m for banging up people who incite hatred towards communities (racial or religious) or threaten to kill etc. Griffin was careful to avoid doing that, but Abu Hamza clearly is either too much of a dumbass to figure out he was being taped, or too honest for his own good.

    Either way, he’s going down….
    as for what Guvnor/SeanT said - well I said it ages before :p

  • 62. Jay Singh  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:19 am

    Gordon Layton

    2nd and 3rd generation sons and daughters of immigrants always have these issues across time and space and religion and race. You get it amongst Hindus and Sikhs and Chinese too. Watch a movie like Bend it Like Beckham.

    The difference is - Muslims have a ready made atavistic and extreme ideology and revivalist movement that feeds off a global movement waiting to suck them up. Other ethnic minorities are not faced with that ‘temptation’. Put crudely - Muslims have a big bad wolf out there to exacerbate and feed off this identity issue, that other communities do not have to face.

  • 63. Jay Singh  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:23 am

    The big bad wolf is of course the Hizb / Al Muj types you see at colleges & Universities etc

  • 64. Siddharth  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:30 am

    “My Son the Terrorist” - Hanif Qureishi

    That film pretty much defines the aspirations and the feelings of two generations of Muslim immigration from the subcontinent. The father came to work hard, succeed, for the children. He has no need or requirement to fit in. The son is alienated, racked with complexes and feels excluded.
    Its seminal, man.

  • 65. Jay Singh  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:33 am

    Sid

    Correction, it’s My Son the Fanatic

  • 66. Siddharth  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:34 am

    Yes, quite.

  • 67. Eric  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:47 am

    The son is alienated, racked with complexes and feels excluded.

    Good film. Carrying a large bag of Mc Cain’s Oven chips over one’s shoulder is never a good policy.

    It has to be said though that the fanatism of the son is chosen, as is “alienation”.

    Unless of course you think people joining organisations like the BNP/HuT should be absolved of personal responsibility for that choice.

  • 68. Siddharth  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:56 am

    Unless of course you think people joining organisations like the BNP/HuT should be absolved of personal responsibility for that choice.

    For that choice? No. But there is one strand of commonality that connects people who join fanatical organisations, and that is usually low self-esteem. Feelings of the “Glory of the Ummah” and the “Born in Britain” are, at the same time, masks to cover self-doubt and over-compensatory feelings of superiority.

  • 69. Sunny  |  February 8th, 2006 at 1:09 am

    Put crudely - Muslims have a big bad wolf out there to exacerbate and feed off this identity issue,

    Jay, maybe… although at one time the paranioa within the Sikh community over the RSS/VHP crew was getting to crazy levels. My uncle even bought home some DVD about how the RSS were trying to take over Sikhism etc… Lucky they got voted out, it’s died down a bit.

  • 70. Gordon Layton  |  February 8th, 2006 at 1:16 am

    Of course I have a theory but I want to test it, like any social scientist. I’m not claiming profound truth or originality but it does seem to me to be a crisis of modernity (or post-modernity, take your pick). The British state, in common with other advanced western democracies, doesn’t seem to quite know what it’s for. Members of the establishment (crap term but there ain’t really a better one - elite doesn’t work) are more confused than anyone and the profound lack of authority communicates itself outwards.

    Filling this vacuum is a new politics of identity. It’s a highly individuated phenomenon and one of the factors that determines which identities are available to a person is his or her background.

    I’m struck - really struck - by the lack of any organisation that represents or articulates the views and aspirations of young secular people of Muslim origin. People fitting that description occasionally pop up in the public debate but the most ‘moderate’ visible group is the Muslim Council of Britain which is avowedly religious and quite theocratic at that.

    I know personally at least half a dozen people under the age of 40 who are of either Pakistani on Iranian origin. All of them are either athiests or nominal Muslims. They haven’t rejected their families but are fully integrated into the mainstream of British life.

    Some of them feel that as ‘Muslims’ (the term is used in an unhelpfully quasi-ethnic sense in the UK) they are undergoing a kind of living hell at the moment. Every day brings a fresh news story that has the potential to alienate them from the non-Muslim people around them. Where can they turn? The only voice of moderate muslims is Sir Iqbal - and he’s on TV denouncing gays and boycotting Holocaust Memorial Day!

    Which figures could feature in a genuinely moderate Britons Of Muslim Origin- type organisation?

  • 71. Sunny  |  February 8th, 2006 at 2:15 am

    Gordon:
    Filling this vacuum is a new politics of identity. It’s a highly individuated phenomenon and one of the factors that determines which identities are available to a person is his or her background.

    I’d say this is a recent phenomenon, and to a certain degree unavoidable. the second generation has grown up now, and found itself still a bit on the sidelines and still mostly with Asian friends… so there is a renewed search for identity. It used to be race… its increasingly becoming religion unfortunately.

    I’m struck - really struck - by the lack of any organisation that represents or articulates the views and aspirations of young secular people of Muslim origin.
    Well, they haven’t needed to, until now. The MCB came from the Salman Rushdie incidents, others also came as reactionary forces. Now in a reaction to these groups, more progressive groups are coming out (PBM, City Circle etc) but the media or the govt pays them little attention.

    Which figures could feature in a genuinely moderate Britons Of Muslim Origin- type organisation?

    Tons. Ziauddin Sardar would be one of my top entries.

  • 72. Bikhair  |  February 8th, 2006 at 3:19 am

    Old Pickler,

    You talk alot of crap but I know you know no what you speak. In the event that I should challenege you again on your ideas about Islam, the Prophet and your ongoing obession with his wives, you gotta promise you will not ignore me, or run to another blog where you ideas are never challeneged.

    You are a coward! Dont speak when grown folks are around unless you want a virtual smack in the mouth.

  • 73. Old Pickler  |  February 8th, 2006 at 9:41 am

    Fruitcake.

  • 74. sonia  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:03 pm

    ” But there is one strand of commonality that connects people who join fanatical organisations, and that is usually low self-esteem. Feelings of the “Glory of the Ummah” and the “Born in Britain” are, at the same time, masks to cover self-doubt and over-compensatory feelings of superiority”

    good one Siddarth - i’d say its the hiding under cover of a pack mentality due to feeling inadequate as an individual.

  • 75. sonia  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:09 pm

    “’m struck - really struck - by the lack of any organisation that represents or articulates the views and aspirations of young secular people of Muslim origin.”

    well who says that young people of Muslimorigin should in particular have any different views to any other young individuals?

    as you’ve indicated yourself - individuals are individuals.

    you don’t have an organization do you representing Young British People?

    well i’d say as a social scientist the problem is identifying people into groups. End of story. What’s this business of ‘representing’ Muslims - or any other religion? Religion shouldn’t be anything other than a private individuals belief/views of spirituality - ranging from nothing all the way to whatever.

    If people didn’t have an idea of ‘representing’ then we wouldn’t have this problem of ‘bad representation’.

  • 76. El Cid  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:16 pm

    Soooo Sid, you work in Fund Management, huh!?
    Must be back office.

  • 77. Old Pickler  |  February 8th, 2006 at 12:48 pm

    individuals are individuals…

    I’m not.

  • 78. Kay  |  February 8th, 2006 at 1:59 pm

    Religion and politics are inseparable, but a few bad apples (in this case Hamza & a few extremist loonies) sour a wonderful tree (in this case religion).

    Agree with one of the posts above stating that religion is a personal connect btw an individual and

    Hamza- good riddance to ‘bad’ rubbish! Shame about the punishment term
    So when is Griffin’s turn?!.

    El cid; darlin are u dishing all fund managers ( I is training to be one now!)?

  • 79. El Cid  |  February 8th, 2006 at 2:35 pm

    I is not dissin’ da buyside krew.
    I is just speculating on Chairman Sid’s City reach, wev’va ee is hench or pussy claat.

  • 80. Kay  |  February 8th, 2006 at 2:41 pm

    okay den

  • 81. El Cid  |  February 8th, 2006 at 2:53 pm

    where you training then Kay?

  • 82. El Cid  |  February 8th, 2006 at 2:53 pm

    at uni? at a firm?

  • 83. Kay  |  February 8th, 2006 at 3:08 pm

    sorry typos,*connection/ *religion.

    Early start at work, brain cells virtually dead!

    El cid; At a firm, won’t disclose which one though.

  • 84. El Cid  |  February 8th, 2006 at 3:27 pm

    City, Canary Wharf, Mayfair or out of town?

  • 85. Kay  |  February 8th, 2006 at 3:32 pm

    why do wanna know?

  • 86. Kay  |  February 8th, 2006 at 3:33 pm

    I’m sensing that u are probably working in wealth management.

  • 87. El Cid  |  February 8th, 2006 at 3:38 pm

    El Cid declined to comment. I’m in Canary Wharf, which I hate

  • 88. Kay  |  February 8th, 2006 at 3:46 pm

    Lol.
    Nope in Bank.
    Hey Canary Whar is lovely unlike Bank which is a complete utter bore.
    Well if its not WM then its either
    Insurance,
    Risk
    Equities
    IT
    HR
    or
    Post collection boy…
    Thus narrowing down the company to BARCAP, HSBC, CitiGroup, hhhmmm?

  • 89. El Cid  |  February 8th, 2006 at 4:09 pm

    I no natheen. I cum from Barthelona.

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