**i don’t know* but perhaps you’re imputing some assumptions about how/what Zohra is thinking? ( i refer to you mentioning “as a convenient get-out clause in these debates”) we don’t necessarily know she is a ‘devout muslim’ and maybe we shouldn’t make those assumptions? I find these ‘debates’ are often usually clouded by people making assumptions about other’s religiosity, or what it is they’re trying to achieve. I mean personally i’ve not been able to ask many people questions about all this because too often people assume i am trying to ‘say something bad about islam’ and it gets their backs up. of course i realize the way i go about it may have something to do with it, and i probably need be more aware of that and do something to change that.

Sorry for the late reply (post 98), I didn’t see it. I agree with everything you mentioned. The Quran clearly is anything but simple to understand, and in many cases it seems inconsistent and incoherent. Yet thats exactly the opposite of how the Quran describes itself. I’m not very religious, and I seem to be fast sliding towards skepticism. The point is that devout Muslims like Zohro cannot use the excuse that the “Quran is complicated” as a convenient get-out clause in these debates, which they do frequently. Its simply NOT how the Quran describes itself. The Quran claims its “easy to understand” numerous times, and no amount of sophistry and obfuscating rhetoric is going to change that.

yes – in things like paternity leave and recognition that fathers do want to /or are interested in caring for their children, actually. it’s raised the central value of parenthood rather than just motherhood i would say. that was an inequal emphasis – in my opinion.

‘islam has a strong communal tradition’ – well that would be in my opinion the manifestation of organized religion. there are strands of mysticism in islamic tradition like there have been in both christian and jewish traditions..which i feel counter the communal tradition to a certain extent. though im a bit disappointed about the Sufi thing – in as much – as the emphasis on having a ‘teacher’ per se – which i feel is a bit rigid.

Hmm. I can see that Islam has a strong communal tradition, and that the Western tradition of human rights mighty appear to be in conflict with that. However, in non-Muslim as well as Muslim Feminism, there is a focus on the central value of motherhood. And this focus to the benefit both of society (which should be family-centred) and individuals (we’re happy if raised in an emotionally nourshing environment). And this applies to men just as muvh as to women: Feminism is been extremely important in advancing men’s rights and quality of life as it is women’s.

It does seem, though, that there are potential contradictions in non-Muslim feminism, ie in the insistence that women are not simply breeding machines. I suggest that the model of stilettoed high-achievers within a patriarchal world is a perversion of Feminist ideals. Feminism should be about restructuring the whole of society. But in so doing, we have to recognise human diversity. Pre-determined, fixed assumptions about male and female roles and characteristics are stifling. (And on these aspects, I suggest that Queer Politics leads the way).

if i were to think about my ideas in this kind of context – and how i see myself within feminist discourses – i could come up with ‘individualist feminist’ – i.e the qualification being the focus on individual rights for all. so i guess that’s why i don’t bother referring to myself explicitly as embracing ‘feminist’ ideals because it seems to me a focus on rights for the individual – for every human – automatically implies and subsumes the same ideas as those generally found within feminist discourses. i would just refer to myself as someone who supports individual human rights for all.

and i think often the label ‘feminist’ can result in perhaps encouraging people to draw too too tight a boundary around women, which sometimes can lead to negative thinking – in terms of homogeneity, the usual problems with group ‘loyalty’ etc. – preconceived ideas about – #men# as a totality, ( and ‘women’ as a totality as well – instead of a collection of individuals who have different desires etc.) inability to recognize – or a refusal to acknowledge – how other women compound the problems of patriarchy ( e.g. problems which are due to loyalty to ‘elders’ – including female elders) etc. etc

Or…to but it more negatively…Feminist despite Islam? Muslim despite potential contradictions with Feminism?

Or a Muslim who would like to stretch Islam to encompass Feminist viewpoints? Which is maybe (from my Atheist perspective) not as contradictory as it might sound; Religions are shaped by humans according to their preference.

Myself, I have no way of pre-judging the degree of common ground I have with Muslims, Christians, Pagans, Secularists or Tea Leaf Readers. Obviously I don’t share any common ground over gods etc. It’s a matter of whether their ideas are compatible with free and happy human societies.

I guess being a “Muslim Feminist” would be analogous to being a “Liberal Feminist” or “Ecological (Eco-)Feminist” where the feminism is central and the qualification indicates how you place yourself as a feminist among other feminist discourses. And perhaps this should be distinguished from being a Feminist Muslim, Feminist Liberal or Feminist Ecologist.

So among Muslims I might be a Feminist Muslim (as well as lots of other things important in debates among Muslims such as my preference for Sheikh x or interpretation y), among Feminists I might be a Muslim Feminist (as well as lots of other things important among feminists).

As a Muslim Feminist I would probably have more in common intellectually with most Christian Feminists than Pagan Feminists because we’d share probably some assumptions (like God being neither male nor female, rather than worshipping anything which particularly represents male or female principles). But nothing much can be taken for granted. More important to me would be their understanding of how patriarchy operates, what is most disturbing about it and how we should work to overcome it without reproducing oppressive structures.

As a Feminist Muslim, things are even less certain. Some secular Muslims share concerns to avoid discriminatory implementation of Personal Law, but they would also probably want to keep personal and public life as strictly separate spheres which can be equally oppressive from a feminist point of view. Some Salafi Muslims would interpret the public lives of the wives of the prophet as that no roles are barred, but some would also interpret their roles as somehow inferior to those taken by male companions of the prophet. Some traditionalist Muslims make fatwas in liberating directions, some in oppressive ones from a feminist point of view. etc. What would be most important to me, from a feminist point of view, would be willingness to investigate forms of coercion, ways in which groups are stigmatised or made invisible, and other forms of subconscious oppression all within the context of Qur’anic injunctions to oppose oppression and not be oppressive onesself.

Even if you are a Muslim, such arguments will often seem arcane. Most people are also unaware how much diversity and argument there is in feminist thought. I am an expert in neither, but I am willing to attach both labels to my identity because both discourses have influenced how I consciously conduct my life in a way that, say, Paganism, Secularism, Nationalism and Tea Leaf Reading do not.

Quote from the “Recital” (Al-koran)

Com on, islam is a religion.
It is therfore, automatically a combination of moral and physical blackmail.

I suggest that it be dumped, along with all the other collections of lies called religion (including communism, of course)

I suppose that what I’m trying to say is that I get the ‘Feminist’ bit – and I can see that it is as possible to adopt strong, woman-centred identities within an Islamic framework as it is within a non-Islamic. But I’m still not getting the Islamic bit. But then…I don’t get Christian Feminism or Pagan Feminism either.

which will make sense to some people who want to stay within the ‘good girl framework ‘:-). after all why should they not identify with aspects of feminism that they feel apply to them, and leave off the bits that they feel don’t ( or cannot, that’s another debate) apply. people picking and choosing what is valid and meaninful to them. which is all good stuff. but similarly, the idea of islamic feminism might not appeal or offer anything to some others. if you’re not feeling restricted by some religious traditions you might not feel it applies. i daresay that might be something you want to think about with regards to your point of does it apply to non-muslims etc.

of course the “righteous religious response” would no doubt be that as you are not accepting some fixed notion of God (whatever that is) you are on the path to Hell: so that’s what you are missing. Some kind of supposed salvation (But not to worry, there are plenty of us who are also on the receiving ends of such exhortations. i daresay if you’re ‘born Muslim’ ( funny idea huh) you’re particularly targeted with such exhortations especially if you’re seen to be ‘slipping’… ) but yeah that’s what worries me – to be honest – what if they’re right – what if we didnt do what they said – and we’ll be in ‘trouble’? of course it’s that fear precisely preacher types prey on..so..

Sorry to throw such a spanner into the works! but there you go.

Sonia first:
It sounds like you’re giving a good illustration of an aspect of identity politics. Am I right in thinking that you identify with the Muslim category that you are boxed into, without its necessarly being the foundation for your thought? I’m reminded of something I heard on BBC R4 the other day, complaining at the description of Barack Obama as ‘black’. “After all, he’s just as white as he is black.” Oh yeah? Tell that to a red states white racist.

I do fully accept, though, that Islam is a broad and diverse category. Indeed, my understanding is that it’s essence is somewhat more flexible than Christianity – eg the qualification for being a Muslim is to accept Allah and…that’s about it. (Noting, of course, that not all Muslims see it that way). So…this is where I’m struggling. Why specifically Islamic Feminism? And what is it that I’m missing that Muslims have?

I’m wondering…is does idea of Islamic Feminism only address a hermetic world of Islam? Is it relevant to non-Muslims?

Similarly, Arif:
“Islam allows me to be myself more easily in a lot of situations in the west. ”

Now that’s really interesting. It sounds like you’re setting a framework in which you can think. I suppose I too do that by declaring myself an Atheist Fundamentalist. Largely this is to annoy people…but it does also give the intellectual exercise of, for example, ignoring creationist idiocies and Catholic homophobia, looking at Christianity in the best possible light and still coming out against it. First I have to ask myself “What if they’re right?” before I can marshall my arguments.

It sounds like – excuse me if I’m flippant – a bad Muslim is a good thing to be?

Aka –
I agree re religious hatred laws – and I’d welcome some Muslim views here. It seems to me that the real problem is that Islamophobia is used as a proxy for racism, and what we should be striving for is a more robust recognition of this. There was a good example of case law in Scotland:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2356837.stm