Forced Marriage Bounty Hunters


by Rumbold
30th August, 2010 at 10:27 am    

Nadeem Badshah in the Guardian has highlighted the case of a taxi driver who picked up and returned fugitive women to their families. The women, many of whom were fleeing forced marriages or other ‘honour’-based violence, were ambushed by Zakir in return for payments of around £5,000:

While most locals in the tightly knit south Asian community thought Zakir was merely picking up and dropping off passengers each day, his work provided perfect cover to exploit his contacts with fellow drivers and shopkeepers to hunt down runaway teenagers. According to Zakir, some bounty hunters would also befriend officials in housing departments and in the Department for Work and Pensions to get National Insurance numbers – a strategy confirmed by campaigners against forced marriages.

The links with the DWP confirms other, earlier investigations, as often even an entry-level worker will have access to details of hundreds of people in the local area, and can get at those details with just a name/date of birth, without being detected. Nor is Zakir unique, as plenty of other bounty hunters operate in this manner; the article points out that some female bounty hunters will infiltrate women’s refuges posing as victims in order to find their targets.

What can be done about this? Heavy prosecutions are the obvious answer, but how can you stop, for example, DWP workers accessing personal data (even if they cannot transfer it to anything, they can write it down manually), and how can this be monitored?


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Filed in: 'Honour'-based violence






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  1. Cauldron — on 30th August, 2010 at 10:54 am  

    What’s the betting that “tightly knit south Asian community” is a code for “Mirpuri”.

    These threads follow a pattern. First, some rather unpleasant cultural practice or socio-economic failing is highlighted (the other day it was cousin-marriage), with the implication being that this practice is carried out by large groups of people. Then, various posters pop up to disassociate themselves from the said practice. By post #40 we establish that most ethnic minorities, South Asians, Muslims and even Pakistanis have nothing to do with it and the problem is very specific to the Mirpuri diaspora. (OK, once in a while the problem lies with the Somali diaspora, but even then our posters from Somaliland are quick to disassociate themselves).

    I would really like to hear the other side of the story. Could someone from the Mirpuri community post an article as to why their community appears to cause disproportionate angst? The article could challenge conventional wisdom (“The stats are wrong. Kids of Mirpuri origin get the best GCSE results in the UK”), could offer defiance (“We are Mirpur. Everybody hates us and we don’t care”) or could offer some other perspective as to why the continued migration of people from Mirpur to the UK is desirable. In any case, it would be interesting to get another perspective.

  2. Trofim — on 30th August, 2010 at 11:21 am  

    Once, when I was in charge of an acute admission ward (psychiatric)in a hospital in Brum, a CPN brought in a young Muslim woman. The CPN apologised for misusing our facilities, but said she had had to tell this young woman’s family that she was mad in order to get her out of the house, because her life was in danger, as she was going out with a man not approved of by her community. Of course, being somewhat naive then, I thought the CPN must be joking or seriously exaggerating in order to justify her action. After some negotiations, we managed to get a place in a woman’s refuge some miles away in the Black Country. Sorry folks, but the refuge specifically sent a taxi with a white driver, just in case anything got back to her family. Even then, we were instructed to smuggle her out to the taxi covered in a sheet, and she was delivered to someone some distance away from the refuge, in order that the taxi driver was unaware of the real address.

  3. Kismet Hardy — on 30th August, 2010 at 12:25 pm  

    Aaarghh! Bollocks! Fuck you! Female bounty hunters! That’s the fucking plot for my novel! Fucking ruined my day you fucking cunts the lot of you.

    Goodbye cruel world I’m off to kill myself but first I’m going to kill some bastard men first

  4. earwicga — on 30th August, 2010 at 1:46 pm  

    Goodbye Kismet. I’ll miss you.

  5. douglas clark — on 30th August, 2010 at 2:16 pm  

    Rumbold,

    Most systems can be set up to determine which User ID has accessed a particular account. In this case there will be, or ought to be, a way of determining that. Pity the poor person that has the job of managing it though, it is a soul destroying job.

    If you make the use of a log-in ID by anyone but the authorised user a disciplinary matter – dismissal level – then you could stop this sort of thing.

    It is also not really reasonable that users at a low level should have access to the complete database, access should be on a ‘need to know’ basis. So if the client lived in South Toytown the access to that record by a DWP employee who covered South Toytown would, or at least may have legitimate grounds for accessing the record. Someone from North Toytown might not. Obviously if employees knew that their access to records was being monitored and would lead to them losing their jobs they would think twice about it. It would also make them effectively unemployable in the whole of the rest of the IT field.

    It is also an offence under DPA, if I remember correctly, to release data to an unauthorised third party in any event.

  6. Dalbir — on 30th August, 2010 at 3:13 pm  

    The Guardian article blatantly uses a Sikh name in place of what is obviously a Pakistani Muslim women.

    Then they wheel out the constantly angry Ms. Sanghera. Who managed to escape her oppressive family with a doting husband, and still f**k it all up – by shagging about on the poor fellow.

    Wonders never cease….

    I always knew those cab drivers were dodgy btw. lol

  7. Phil Hunt — on 30th August, 2010 at 3:30 pm  

    but how can you stop, for example, DWP workers accessing personal data

    The computer could keep a record of everyone who has accessed a particular record. If this was done and low-level employees knew about it, they’d be deterred from accessing data improperly. Especially if they thought they might end up on an ‘accessory to murder’ charge.

  8. damon — on 30th August, 2010 at 5:41 pm  

    Like cousin marriage, unless it’s you or your family, it’s not really anyone else’s business …. is it?
    Really – what’s the point even talking about it?
    Nothing can be done untill the communities themselves decide to stop these practices.
    Until it is no longer practiced in Pakistan. We have to wait utill Pakistan changes its culture (which will be never in our lifetimes of course).
    In the meantime, sure – have some refuges, and give individual women chances to escape this, but it’s all too small and tokenistic really.

    An ex-England cricketer said on the radio today that even the betting scams by Pakistan’s players was so entrenched because of poverty on the one hand, and the culture of deferece to elders. When young players were told to bowl some no-balls by older players, they really had no choice.
    But maybe I shouldn’t bring that up here.

  9. Rumbold — on 30th August, 2010 at 6:12 pm  

    Douglas and Phil Hunt:

    Again, the problem is the scale of the information available. Even one employee in the DWP is likely to have a ‘caseload’ of dozens of people, and so access to all their information (legitimately). Benefit delivery has been massively centralised too, so the benefit centres in places like Glasgow and Belfast will have instantaneous access to tens of thousands of records. Given that these places can only be accessed by phone, those answering the phone need to have access to all these records, and can be tricked. To reverse this, benefits would have to be localised again, but this would place more information in the hands of people in the local area, so it is a tricky one.

    Dalbir:

    Why are you attacking Sikh women who speak out against forced marriage again? Trying to smear a leading campaigner and say it is all the fault of the Muslims? Don’t you think that forced marriage and ‘honour’-based violence happens amongst Sikhs?

    http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?q=node/4878

    http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?q=node/4747

    http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?q=node/4951

    http://www.stophonourkillings.com/?q=node/4666

  10. Cauldron — on 30th August, 2010 at 6:18 pm  

    @8 – it’s not entirely true to say that nothing can be done about the problem. From a UK perspective we can at least stop the problem getting worse by banning any further migration-by-marriage until Mirpuris themselves take the initiative to fix their barbaric cultural practices.

  11. Dalbir — on 30th August, 2010 at 6:45 pm  

    Rumbold

    Yes it does take place. No one is trying to deny it (well not me anyway).

    It’s just this women’s hypocritical actions fly in the face of her gripes. If her life was ‘ruined’ by the actions of her strict parents, then she should realise that her own self absorbed bullshit wasn’t exactly wonderful for the poor mug that she latched her wagon to when it suited her.

    But I guess, that gets overlooked by men who are preoccupied with reinforcing this narrative of female victims of the dark hordes. That age old racist shite. Dalrymple should trawl the archives to document the development of that crap if you ask me.

    I’ve said it umpteen times on this forum. Yes some Sikh women are oppressed by strict parents, but f**k me, so are some of the guys. Plenty of guys are not expected to be out and about on the town etc. etc. No relationships before marriage. Dietary restrictions.

    Again, go out on the town and see for yourself if plenty of Sikh women aren’t out and about enjoying themselves instead of being locked in some basement somewhere.

    A big problem is how, excessive conservatism is frequently portrayed as systematic, cultural based feminine oppression. It just simply isn’t. A distinction needs to be drawn. And anyone can fuck off if they are trying to suggest the problems in the Sikh community are the same as that in the Pakistani one.

    But again, I guess it’s easier to just think of us all as some monolithic brown block, hence the blurring. The author being ‘asian’ himself is strange, if he is behind the blurring. Whether you like it or lump it, a clear fact of being Sikh is to have a separate identity from others. You can see this manifest in many ways. The external visible forms/symbols should be a dead giveaway even for the dense amongst us.

    I realise even so called liberals can’t shake off the whole mindset of orientalism and how it informs your views of our communities. Even when you consider yourselves at some helm of progression.

    When will we move away from the narrative of the oppressed exoticised femme?

    Actually, don’t bother answering. I think I know the answer.

  12. earwicga — on 30th August, 2010 at 7:05 pm  

    ‘And anyone can fuck off if they are trying to suggest the problems in the Sikh community are the same as that in the Pakistani one.’

    The answer is the same – misogyny. Same as it is any ‘community’ or culture. Your outburst is misplaced Dalbir.

  13. MaidMarian — on 30th August, 2010 at 7:31 pm  

    Rumbold – On the data protection angle here. Here’s a thought – do nothing. Every time there is a big government overreaction to a single bad apple there is criticism, so why not apply the principle the other way? If the barring system was a massive overreaction, then some huge bureaucratic system here would be likewise.

    It is a risk, sure. It is a risk that can, no doubt, be better controlled but not eliminated. It is therefore a risk worth running.

  14. MaidMarian — on 30th August, 2010 at 7:34 pm  

    ‘I guess it’s easier to just think of us all as some monolithic brown block, hence the blurring.’

    No, not all of you – just the ones like your good self with a two great big identity chips on each shoulder.

    ‘I realise even so called liberals can’t shake off the whole mindset of orientalism and how it informs your views of our communities.’

    Oh, I don’t think there is any need to try to shake anything given that we have you to tell us all what we think.

  15. earwicga — on 30th August, 2010 at 7:51 pm  

    Although, to be fair to Dalbir,

    I guess it’s easier to just think of us all as some monolithic brown block, hence the blurring.

    Describes a mindset that is hardly unusual in society. I’m sure you see that MaidMarian.

  16. MaidMarian — on 30th August, 2010 at 8:00 pm  

    Actually earwicga, no – I don’t see that. I do see an awful lot of a priori moral condemnation, as Dalbir demonstrates, but no, I do not accept Dalbir’s caricature.

    And Dalbir, to save you going to the trouble of asking, no, I really don’t care what the people in the Dog and Duck said to you.

  17. Rumbold — on 30th August, 2010 at 8:14 pm  

    Dalbir:

    It’s just this women’s hypocritical actions fly in the face of her gripes. If her life was ‘ruined’ by the actions of her strict parents, then she should realise that her own self absorbed bullshit wasn’t exactly wonderful for the poor mug that she latched her wagon to when it suited her.

    Whether or not she is ‘self-absorbed’ is irrelevant to her status as a campaigner. You just don’t like her.

    Yes some Sikh women are oppressed by strict parents, but f**k me, so are some of the guys. Plenty of guys are not expected to be out and about on the town etc. etc. No relationships before marriage. Dietary restrictions.

    Again, go out on the town and see for yourself if plenty of Sikh women aren’t out and about enjoying themselves instead of being locked in some basement somewhere.

    Nobody is saying all Sikh women are oppressed. Just that ‘honour’-based violence has occurred at the hands of Sikhs. And you were the first person to raise this point, attacking Jaswvinder Sanghera and claiming that the Sikh in the article wasn’t a Sikh (supplying no proof).

    I realise even so called liberals can’t shake off the whole mindset of orientalism and how it informs your views of our communities. Even when you consider yourselves at some helm of progression.

    Funnily enough, the first time the word ‘Sikh’ appears in either the original article, the PP article or the PP comment thread is when you bring it up. Nobody is lumping everyone together- you just want to use it to deflect criticism.

  18. damon — on 30th August, 2010 at 8:15 pm  

    Has Channel 4′s Dispatches programme got an agenda against ethnic minorities and foreigners?
    Last week it was cousin marriage – and right now I’m watching one on domestic slavery in Britain.
    It seems all the abusive employers are foreigners.

  19. Rumbold — on 30th August, 2010 at 8:20 pm  

    MaidMarian:

    On the data protection angle here. Here’s a thought – do nothing. Every time there is a big government overreaction to a single bad apple there is criticism, so why not apply the principle the other way? If the barring system was a massive overreaction, then some huge bureaucratic system here would be likewise.

    I would say that the risk is too high. Let the system be slower. Perhaps that will lead to government being able to do less. Most things regarding the DWP don’t need to be accessed instantaneously.

  20. Kulvinder — on 30th August, 2010 at 8:53 pm  

    I thought dalbir had been banned.

  21. Kismet Hardy — on 30th August, 2010 at 8:56 pm  

    “It seems all the abusive employers are foreigners”

    Yeah, cos all the aristocracy that hire cheap, foreign maids and kitchen aid are all like really nice to them

  22. Dalbir — on 30th August, 2010 at 9:10 pm  

    MaidMarian

    Why not have the bollocks to follow your stream of thought to its logical conclusion and join the BNP/EDL or some other pillock group you really belong to, instead of hiding behind some bullshit ‘progressive’ facade, like you do?

    It’s no wonder undercover nazis exist when the rest of you can’t see through them even when you have one under your nose.

  23. Dalbir — on 30th August, 2010 at 9:19 pm  

    No Rumbold

    I’m not trying to ‘deflect’ criticism.

    Seriously, what chances are there of a Sikh girl being married to her cousin in Pakistan at that age? Come on.

  24. deemz — on 30th August, 2010 at 9:21 pm  

    In reply to Post #8:

    “Until it is no longer practiced in Pakistan. We have to wait utill Pakistan changes its culture (which will be never in our lifetimes of course).”

    Not really. It *is* changing, faster than you’d think even with the growth of radical Islam throwing a wrench into things. There are some things going on in the pind that you wouldn’t understand unless you’ve been there. Many girls are getting a chance to go to school whereas there were no schools in my mom’s generation 40-50 years ago (hell, lots of the men from that generation had a chance to attend school then either). And where once a culture thought girls would be “ruined” by school, many are now actively encouraged by their parents to pursue it. Granted there are still lots of backward people but there are growing numbers that are not so, at least in the Potohar/Pindi region I am familiar with. I can tell you a story in my family where a cousin of mine back in the early 80s wanted to become a doctor, she was the first of her generation to have gone to school having been raised in the city by her father who was in the forces but when he retired they returned back to the village, everyone in the village was dead set against her continuing with her education …it took several wasted years where she did chores around the house like throwing out cow dung and the prodding of my father and others to convince my uncle it was the right thing to support her goal. Eventually my cousin became a nurse and now every one in the village, in our braderi goes to her when they need help…everyone sees the success she’s had and it’s changed many people’s thinking to girls education. Things are changing….easily? no, is it a struggle? yes, but it is happening.

    Meanwhile with all of the advancements a lot of the girls are making, a lot of the boys are falling behind (or more aptly, not running forward with them – mostly because the dream of immigration to europe or working in dubai distract them). It’s becoming an issue in arranging marriages.

    My father thinks that the Pakistani culture is changing faster than the culture of the UK Pakistanis, who even in terms of their language seem stuck with whatever they came with in the 1960s…

  25. deemz — on 30th August, 2010 at 9:41 pm  

    I think Sikhs in general are more likely to be progressive than Muslim Punjabi/Pakistanis but there are definitely some commonalities with regards to “honour” that emanate from a similar culture. Also the dowry thing between unrelated families adds a bit of a different element to Sikh arranged marriages,i.e. dowry fraud, that isn’t really there to the same extent with these arrangements between close relations among Muslim punjabis.

    There is the famous case here in Canada of Jaswinder Kaur Sidhu killed by a killer her mother and uncle hired after she disgraced her Jat Sikh family by marrying a lowly rickshaw driver.

    It happens, and there are similarities but there are important differences too.

  26. douglas clark — on 30th August, 2010 at 9:43 pm  

    Rumbold @ 9,

    Hmm..

    Again, the problem is the scale of the information available. Even one employee in the DWP is likely to have a ‘caseload’ of dozens of people, and so access to all their information (legitimately). Benefit delivery has been massively centralised too, so the benefit centres in places like Glasgow and Belfast will have instantaneous access to tens of thousands of records. Given that these places can only be accessed by phone, those answering the phone need to have access to all these records, and can be tricked. To reverse this, benefits would have to be localised again, but this would place more information in the hands of people in the local area, so it is a tricky one.

    No it isn’t Rumbold.

    It is staightforward enough to segementise records on a ‘need to know basis’. It is straightforward enough also to determine who accessed a particular record at a particular time.

    What is a lot harder is to determine whether someone who had a legitimate right to access the record. However I’d applied a “need to know” criteria.

    Seems simple enough to me.

    Given the volume of records and the likelyhood that only the felon would have accessed that particular record, well, we can do it.

    The point is, that there are technological answers to most of this.

    Why are we not applying them?

  27. Dalbir — on 30th August, 2010 at 9:51 pm  

    It happens, and there are similarities but there are important differences too.

    I agree fully. But certain quarters willfully or ignorantly like to blur these important differences for racist and ‘PC’ reasons.

  28. MaidMarian — on 30th August, 2010 at 9:52 pm  

    Dalbir –

    You say that the endpoint of my thinking is BNP/EDL membership and later appear to call me an ‘undercover Nazi.’

    Those are some pretty serious aspersions to be casting, would you be so kind as to say what it is that makes you think that about me?

  29. douglas clark — on 30th August, 2010 at 9:59 pm  

    Rumbold:

    Given that these places can only be accessed by phone, those answering the phone need to have access to all these records, and can be tricked.

    Well, yes. Possibly.

    Perhaps they should not be answering any private sector queries whatsoever?

    Perhaps tricky little libertarian wannabe’s should get short truck? Y’know, when they ask shit for brains stuff?

    Anyway, you are the only person I know that thinks of themselves as a ‘libertarian’ when you are, instead, a fair minded human being.

    You’ve got to work that out, my friend….

  30. damon — on 31st August, 2010 at 12:39 am  

    Deemz @24

    Not really. It *is* changing, faster than you’d think ….

    I’m sure things are changing, but how much they do is something I’d be interested really to know. For some reason I think that the change that matters is still really slow. Things become more materialistic and middle class people’s lives improve, but then different kinds of exploitation can take place.
    Like a greater number of families than before finding it possible to have maids and servants.
    Things might be much better for miss little rich girl growing up and having a social life and doing things not before possible for women. But it’s still for a small minority I think.
    When Pakistan become more like Malaysia – where you can see ordinary muslim young couples hanging out in the shopping mall and holding hands queuing up for the cinema – then I might think that real change has taken place.

  31. deemz — on 31st August, 2010 at 1:42 am  

    damon,

    i’m talking about progress at a very basic level. these are people who have never seen the inside of a shopping mall. i’ll wait til that happens before imagining the scenario of couples holding hands walking through shopping malls (really, i think that’s trivial in comparison to the kind of progress i am talking about…like really, you’re serious?)….this young generation just coming on now consists of kids whose parents are largely simple subsistence farmers, laborers in the middle east of if more fortunate teachers or retired low level army and navy personnel, or related to folks that went off to merry old england.

    this is of course about rural pakistan, the pakistan that my people are from. what goes on in the major cities among the upper crust and middle classes is outside of my range of familiarity but i do know from word of mouth that they have their parties and probably were more free to “socialize” than i ever was, even growing up in canada, for better or for worse.

    expecting a bit too much aren’t you?

  32. earwicga — on 31st August, 2010 at 1:42 am  

    Damon – re. Malaysia http://bit.ly/9HhrYc

  33. Sunny — on 31st August, 2010 at 3:07 am  

    Whoa – very gruesome, worth highlighting but I’m not sure what can be done to resolve this problem. Eastern Eye ran a two page spread on this a few years back – they even interviewed the guy who did it! (not kill them, just kidnap them and bring them back).

    Unfortunately these people are like contract killers – there is little that can be done to specifically clamp down on them until attitudes change.

  34. Cauldron — on 31st August, 2010 at 4:23 am  

    @33. “I’m not sure what can be done to resolve this problem”. In a very narrow sense, nothing – the thugs that do this kind of thing aren’t suddenly going to appear in public to defend their actions.

    But indirectly, we can attack the problem by attacking the cultural forces that nurture these attitudes. This is a very specific case of a specific sub-culture that deserves zero tolerance. Crack down on the problem by (a) publicly naming the offending culture/community (as opposed to Guardian sub-editors shielding Mirpuris behind the catch-all “tightly knit south Asian community”); and (b) taking punitive action to break that sub-culture (e.g. migration policies specifically designed to discriminate against the importation of spouses from rural Pakistan).

    I accept that this is discriminatory and possibly likely to alienate that community, but what to do? As things stand, every other Pakistani/Muslim/south Asian/immigrant is being tarnished by the behaviour of these country bumpkins.

    We must have had over 100 comments on the last two cultural relativism threads and not one person has come forward to defend the culture from which these practices spring. Seriously Sunny, Rumbold can you source a guest writer from the rural Pakistani diaspora to explain WTF is up with their sub-culture and why the rest of us should tolerate it? Maybe we are missing something. It would be fascinating to get a totally different perspective on the subject.

  35. j.stoddart — on 31st August, 2010 at 4:45 am  

    @earwicga,
    @32,
    the perception of an lgbt person in malaysia is different to the general perception in more secular societies where homosexuality is is seen as an innate characteristic.

    historically, homosexuality in muslim societies is seen as more of vice.same sex attraction is seen as a temptation and a means by which a person’s religious committment is tested. therefore, the feeling is that it should be eschewed in the same way that one eschews extr-marital relations, alcohol etc…

    i am sure that in any societey there are sets of behaviours or ways of being which are recognised as shameful (like the current unfortaunate stigma about being obese) for which people are shunned and bullied as they are perceived to have given into ther carnal desires..

  36. douglas clark — on 31st August, 2010 at 8:04 am  

    Sunny @ 33,

    Unfortunately these people are like contract killers – there is little that can be done to specifically clamp down on them until attitudes change.

    Well, the larger community – y’know, the good guys – can make it so that the ‘bounty hunters’ have zero information to act on. It seems to me that a combination of what Trofim said @ 2 and what I have been saying about data protection would leave the ‘bounty hunters’ bereft of targets.

    It doesn’t require dramatics. It requires a bureaucracy working against this sort of thing. Bureaucracy can sometimes, rarely I’ll admit, be a force for good.

    It is just simply wrong that information on runaways should be a market. In the economic sense of the word ‘market’.

    Trofims’ point about protecting the victim is something we should all consider.

    I find, correct me if I am wrong, that the arguements hereabouts are about protecting cultural practices, rather than the victim.

    We can do something about that, and we should.

    For, it seems to me, that we are all individuals at the end of the day, not tick tock men or women who see ourselves as one dimensional cardboard cut-outs.

    We are better than that!

    To that extent, Rumbold is always right on these sorts of issues.

  37. Rumbold — on 31st August, 2010 at 8:41 am  

    Dalbir:

    Cousin marriage is more typical amongst Pakistani Muslims, but it is not unheard of amongst Pakistanis of other stripes.

    Douglas:

    What is a lot harder is to determine whether someone who had a legitimate right to access the record. However I’d applied a “need to know” criteria.

    That is what I would do too. But my point is that even a single worker would still have legitimate access to dozens of records- and there is nothing you can do about that (people in job centres see 10-15 people a day, for example).

    Perhaps they should not be answering any private sector queries whatsoever?

    They don’t. All cllaers have to cofirm NI numbers and address, but those are easy enough to obtain beforehand.

  38. MaidMarian — on 31st August, 2010 at 9:18 am  

    Rumbold – To be clear, not getting at you!

    ‘All callers have to cofirm NI numbers and address, but those are easy enough to obtain beforehand.’

    Are they? Address, maybe (and it always surprises me that privacy campaigners never seem to have a problem with 192.com) but NI number? There are ways around these, but again, short of not having benefits (a separate argument, before anyone starts) what else can be done?

    As much as I take your point, I still feel there is a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut here.

  39. douglas clark — on 31st August, 2010 at 9:25 am  

    Rumbold,

    We live in a world where my credit rating is zero. Just because I took on the big guy’s and lost.

    Anyway to your point:

    That is what I would do too. But my point is that even a single worker would still have legitimate access to dozens of records- and there is nothing you can do about that (people in job centres see 10-15 people a day, for example).

    Well, you could identify the crooked bastard, could you not? It is not excactly hard to code for that.

    It seems to me that a decent audit system would
    be able to deal with that.

    Whether that is in place or not is moot.

  40. Rumbold — on 31st August, 2010 at 10:05 am  

    MaidMarian:

    I am sure that the family would have a copy of the NI somewhere, or even the card. What to do about it? I am not sure. Localising services would mean people would have to turn up to the local branch in person, which could be staked out. And it would preclude them from fleeing to a certain area. I am stumped too- I can’t think of any even potentially foolproof system.

    Douglas:

    Well, you could identify the crooked bastard, could you not? It is not excactly hard to code for that.

    Not necessarily. A worker could access the information of someone on their ‘caseload’, and have a legitimate defence for it, and nobody could do anything. I would still track usgae though to deter others from accessign the information.

  41. douglas clark — on 31st August, 2010 at 10:42 am  

    Rumbold,

    It would be kind of obvious if a crook was gaming the system. Let’s take your example.

    Someone that has a legitimate right to access a record.

    I’d have thought, correct me if I am wrong, that that person, identified by their access log, would have questions to answer?

    Seperatating legitimate access and illegitamate access is what we are talking about.

    No?

  42. damon — on 31st August, 2010 at 11:35 am  

    Deemz @31 – when you talked of change I was obviously geting ahead of myself and imagining the change that would mean that young men and women could hang out at places like a coffee bar or a youth club.
    And that is not going to happen in places like Mirpur anytime soon I’m guessing.
    When I was in Bangladesh a few years back, I was on a bus and suggested such a thing to the local guy who I was talking with … and he thought the idea of a coffee bar like that, in a small country town, was out of the question. If opened it would be burnt down.

    Earwicga @32 – so now we expect them to jump through the LGBT hoop? That won’t happen anytime soon. It’s too political. Ordinary people don’t really do politics in Malaysia. But in many other ways I thought the Malays were very easy going. Hijabs yes, but tight jeans too. It’s quite a nice look.

  43. douglas clark — on 31st August, 2010 at 11:52 am  

    deem @ 31,

    I’m talking about progress at a very basic level. these are people who have never seen the inside of a shopping mall. i’ll wait til that happens before imagining the scenario of couples holding hands walking through shopping malls (really, i think that’s trivial in comparison to the kind of progress i am talking about…like really, you’re serious?)….this young generation just coming on now consists of kids whose parents are largely simple subsistence farmers, laborers in the middle east of if more fortunate teachers or retired low level army and navy personnel, or related to folks that went off to merry old england.

    this is of course about rural pakistan, the pakistan that my people are from. what goes on in the major cities among the upper crust and middle classes is outside of my range of familiarity but i do know from word of mouth that they have their parties and probably were more free to “socialize” than i ever was, even growing up in canada, for better or for worse.

    expecting a bit too much there aren’t you?

    It seems to me that that is an excuse? It seems to me that you ought have to stand up for yourself. Would that would be right, or would that be wrong?

  44. deemz — on 31st August, 2010 at 3:20 pm  

    Damon @ 42:

    Why does it have to be this jump from arranged marriages between relatives to “free” mingling of the sexes in coffee bars, for there to be changes that bring more power and freedom to the individual?

    douglas clark @ 43:

    I have no idea what you’re talking about. Stand up for myself for what?

  45. damon — on 31st August, 2010 at 3:42 pm  

    Deemz .. it doesn’t. But it was a question of how quickly Pakistan might change before we in Britain noticed a difference to what happens here.
    As to how long cousin marriage will be the morm in places like Bradford, and how long someone from Britain marrying a cousin from Pakistan ceased to be loaded with expectation and the prospects for family wealth and prestige and all that. And a way of circumnavigating immigration laws.

    Is it an area that is no business of gora though?
    (I only use that word for effect btw).

  46. deemz — on 31st August, 2010 at 4:03 pm  

    Honestly, I think after this generation it will become less and less common, and that’s what I was trying to get at. To be fair, I’m not a “true” member of the either community having only been to either the UK or Pakistan, a handful of times, so it’s an insider/outsider perspective. Maybe the Mirpuris are more stuck to their ways than the Potoharis/Gujarati/Punjabis, but at least for the latter, I already see it disappearing slowly and many parents becoming much more comfortable with their children marrying other unrelated British Pakistanis or muslims of their own choice – that is a growing trend too. And I see it happening back home as more and more families become urbanized for economic reasons and there’s a gap between those that leave the village for the city.

  47. Dalbir — on 31st August, 2010 at 4:51 pm  

    I already see it disappearing slowly and many parents becoming much more comfortable with their children marrying other unrelated British Pakistanis or muslims of their own choice – that is a growing trend too.

    That’s not usually enough for the people around here.

  48. damon — on 31st August, 2010 at 5:07 pm  

    … for the people around here.

    Why, whatever do you mean Dalbir?

    Deemz, if you’re in Canada you might not read our Daily Mail very often.
    This was in it today about Pakistan.
    It’s kind of EDL like in a way, but just without the hooliganism.

    ”Corruption, cricket and a stricken country that’s its own worst enemy”
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1307582/PAKISTAN-CRICKET-SCANDAL-A-stricken-country-thats-worst-enemy.html

  49. douglas clark — on 31st August, 2010 at 7:21 pm  

    Deemz @ 44,

    Well, you appear to have a viewpoint that is not common amongst the folk you self identify with. Would that be right or wrong?

    If you are a part of that community then your voice ought to be heard on an equal basis to the reactionary tits that appear to dominate the debate. The sort of lunatics that see a coffee bar as an affront to their very way of life.

    Y’know. Old men with a chip on their shoulder. Or young men pretending to be just like their fathers..

    I might be an old man, but I don’t have a chip on my shoulder. And coffee bars are A-OK with me.

    That is what I was talking about….

  50. douglas clark — on 31st August, 2010 at 7:43 pm  

    Dalbir @ 47,

    It is good enough for me :-)

    Though the breakthrough would be marrying folk outwith your religion right enough. Or growing up sufficiently to question religious belief systems in their entirety.

    Perhaps that is a step too far…

    Why are we expected to pussyfoot around muslims’ beliefs when christian beliefs are ‘open season’? There ought to be no especial dispensation – burning the Satanic Verses notwithstanding – for the insanity of muslims attitudes and beliefs. Aggression doesn’t answer the question of righteousness, at least I don’t think it does.

    Just ’cause they are aggressive don’t make them right.

    Seems to me.

    A near life long atheist.

  51. douglas clark — on 31st August, 2010 at 7:49 pm  

    And, in fact, some of what I said above should be redacted. Because it is only fundamentalist fools that subscribe to that idea of Islam.

    Them, I detest.

    Stupid, overbearing religiosity ought to be declared a mental illness. For that is what it is.

  52. Rumbold — on 31st August, 2010 at 9:10 pm  

    Dalbir:

    That’s not usually enough for the people around here.

    That is true- we are pretty extreme. We believe in the right of people to marry who they want without being ostracised on the basis on religion, race or anything else. And, to counter your forthcoming point, no we don’t care whether you and anyone else want to marry within your ‘community’, just that it is none of business imposing your choices on others.

  53. soru — on 31st August, 2010 at 11:55 pm  

    and it always surprises me that privacy campaigners never seem to have a problem with 192.com)

    The clue is in the .com: if it was .gov.uk, things would be different.

    All cllaers have to cofirm NI numbers and address, but those are easy enough to obtain beforehand.

    What’s needed in cases like this is a reliable means of establishing, authenticating and tracking identity. With a properly designed ID card system, it simply wouldn’t be possible to let a phone operator access the records of anyone who didn’t have the physical card. For normal phone or internet use, a straightforward cryptographically secure challenge/response will stop anyone short of an international crime syndicate or intelligence agency. And for a record flagged as sensitive, you can make someone have to show up at a post office or police station in person to grant access.

    The missed opportunity to set up the infrastructure for maintaining public identity rights has to be a contender for the single biggest domestic civil liberties failing of the New Labour years. How did a bunch of guys with a reputation as such good communicators end up persuading so many liberals that ID cards were a threat, not an opportunity?

  54. earwicga — on 1st September, 2010 at 12:06 am  

    And for a record flagged as sensitive

    Bingo! Surely this is possible?

  55. MaidMarian — on 1st September, 2010 at 9:28 am  

    soru –

    In all sincerity. How do I get my name off 192.com? I don’t know, but if you know, please can you put it on here?

    To my mind either personal information is out there or it is not. I don’t really see how having a private company making my personal details available is somehow better.

  56. Kismet Hardy — on 1st September, 2010 at 9:30 am  

    To remove yourself, send in a CO1 form

    http://www.192.com/downloads/C01.pdf

    Oh. They’ve removed that option. You’re screwed. I’m registered to vote at my parents and all my CCJs go there. If you want to do the same, I’ll give you my parents address. I don’t feel bad. I didn’t ask to be born. Where am I going? OUT (slams door) and so on.

  57. MaidMarian — on 1st September, 2010 at 10:31 am  

    Kismet Hardy –

    I remember an old landlord of mine who tried to get clever with putting his parents address on everything. You’d be amazed how easy it is to get a parent to stick the knife in to their offspring when it comes to money just by keep turning up at their door.

  58. Kismet Hardy — on 1st September, 2010 at 10:48 am  

    I’ll be okay. My parents still think I live at home. They think I just work very long hours. In any case, I tell most people I live with my parents, by way of justifying why I don’t have a girlfriend or a life, like

  59. soru — on 1st September, 2010 at 3:11 pm  

    try:

    http://statics.192.com/downloads/C01.pdf

    Alternatively you can write to us to request the removal of your personal details.
    By post:
    The CO1 Requests Administrator,
    I-CD Publishing (UK) Limited,
    8-10 Quayside Lodge,
    London, SW6 2UZ
    By fax: 0207 909 2169

    Of course, you have to do this once for each such site on the internet. If you seriously don’t want to be easily findable, the best bet is to hire a private detective for a few hours consultancy. They are the only ones that will know everything out there.

  60. deemz — on 1st September, 2010 at 5:17 pm  

    [quote]“Well, you appear to have a viewpoint that is not common amongst the folk you self identify with. Would that be right or wrong?”[/quote]

    Could be right, like I said before it’s an insider/outsider perspective. These are my people, in that we share a similar background but given my upbringing in a totally different environment where I wasn’t immersed around my own people, it’s understandable why my opinions would be different than their’s.

    That’s why it is also hard for me to judge them, and why may appear to be a bit defensive.

    I’m too far away and too westernized to be influential. I have my opinions but I recognize that in general they’d be too radical for most people in my community to hear. For instance, I don’t believe in Islam. This is not something I would go around announcing on my trips back home or when I’m around extended family, for obvious reasons. Does that make me a coward? But where I can, I do try to state or infer my points of view on equality, but try do so with thought and tact.

    There are steps in the foward direction and maybe they don’t get the airplay the backwardness gets, maybe they’re not as progressive as i’d like, but they are being made and I realize everything takes time.

    [quote]That is true- we are pretty extreme. We believe in the right of people to marry who they want without being ostracised on the basis on religion, race or anything else. And, to counter your forthcoming point, no we don’t care whether you and anyone else want to marry within your ‘community’, just that it is none of business imposing your choices on others.[/quote]

    I believe in the right of people to marry who they want…but the right not to be ostracized? Can you even make that a right?

    Unless there’s violence involved and/or you’re being prevented from marrying who you want, I don’t think it’s possible to prevent a community/family “ostracizing”/disowning someone for whatever decisions they make, isn’t that their prerogative. Might not be nice, might not be something you agree with, but its their prerogative …. That’s not an imposition that impedes a decision, that’s a consequence of being able to make a decision.

    The problem is the violence and threats of against people that choose to do their own thing. If it was just shunning that would be an improvement and something people could live with, I think.

    —-

    My apologies on not knowing how to properly format the quotes.

  61. Dalbir — on 1st September, 2010 at 5:33 pm  

    And, to counter your forthcoming point, no we don’t care whether you and anyone else want to marry within your ‘community’, just that it is none of business imposing your choices on others.

    And it’s really none of your business what other communities do either. You moral police man you. Like ‘proactive’ Brits haven’t already caused enough global strife trying to mold everyone to their preferred shape.

    Carry on. Will be a laugh to see what other fine messes you get yourselves into.

  62. KJB — on 1st September, 2010 at 9:12 pm  

    Then they wheel out the constantly angry Ms. Sanghera. Who managed to escape her oppressive family with a doting husband, and still f**k it all up – by shagging about on the poor fellow.

    Yeah! How dare she, eh? Her parents only locked her in the house and refused to let her leave because she didn’t want to marry some man from India! Let me guess, all South Asian feminists are just ‘constantly angry’ and should according to your former flatmate or best friend or whatever it was, just be religious womanists the way you would like. But then, WHAT ABOUT
    THE MEN?! Life is like, SO HARD, for them, you know, that they haven’t managed to get themselves together and do jackshit about it. Unlike the women, who have HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO.

    The golden nuggets of dickishness, how they continue to fall. Look, Dalbir, given that you’re apparently such a catch, should you not be out looking for an unfortunate wife to splatter with your woman-hating bilge instead of us? Or are even the more desperate women smelling it on you and running a mile? I realise I’m being rude, but my God, there comes a point when subtlety just doesn’t cut it any more. You pretend to take things on board, but time and time again, provide yet more hate-filled posturing.

    Anyone who’s NOT a self-pitying misogynist shitebag and has the slightest fucking idea about what it’s like to be a SA woman (clue: not Dalbir) can clearly see that JS was a) too young to be able to handle a serious relationship and b) punishing herself the way that we have been taught to do as good ‘lil obedient Indian girls. It’s something that women generally do to themselves, but it’s much more marked in SA women, because of all the ‘honour’ and ‘community’ BS. They just subsume all that self-destructive stuff into their relationships instead of cutting themselves (though some might do that too).

    Oh and nice try to smear Rumbold as some kind of neo-imperialist, but unfortunately for you, PP isn’t the inside of your head. Plenty of us non-whites stand right beside him and Sunny – the creator of this place – in believing in free choice in marriage for all! Including JS, which is no doubt why you dislike her so. So inconvenient for you and your ilk that women like her exist and demand to be recognised, so that you can’t sweep them under the carpet. Let us know when you become a ‘community leader,’ surely it must be any day now.

  63. Dalbir — on 1st September, 2010 at 9:50 pm  

    I couldn’t even get past the first paragraph KJB.

    Yawn…

  64. damon — on 1st September, 2010 at 11:26 pm  

    Dalbir

    And it’s really none of your business what other communities do either.

    It’s an interesting position and one worthy debating I think. Agree to disagree maybe, but it’s useful to see another opinion.
    There’s another forum I read quite regularly, an Irish one which has people from both protestant and catholic backgrounds commenting on Northern Ireland.
    It is often very polarised and can end up in sectarian slanging matches – but sometimes the conversation can be quite good too. Even when discussing contentious issues. That’s when it’s wortwhile and makes good reading. When people accept that their view isn’t always the only way of looking at something.

    People being holier-than-thou on the internet isn’t that interesting. I don’t really agree with some of the things Dalbir says quite often – but his line that I quoted above, could be IMO, an interesting start of a discussion. The difficult thing is to keep a discussion like that from going off the rails … as they will so often do.

    For example, I might ask the provocative question of Dalbir, whether the people in a country like the UK have a right to see a cousin marrying community as bringing issues/problems to the country that weren’t envisaged when someone had the idea of bringing single men over from villages in Pakistan to try to keep alive the failing milling industry in northern towns.
    When the idea of cousin marriage and chain migration wasn’t even thought of at the time.

    But like talking about events in Belfast in 1970 on an Irish forum, I realise that raising an issue that way is perhaps asking for trouble. But it could be an interesting discussion all the same.

  65. Rumbold — on 2nd September, 2010 at 8:33 am  

    Dalbir:

    I couldn’t even get past the first paragraph KJB.

    Try again.

    And it’s really none of your business what other communities do either. You moral police man you. Like ‘proactive’ Brits haven’t already caused enough global strife trying to mold everyone to their preferred shape.

    All I care about is that individuals have freedom of chocie. You can marry who you want Dalbir. All I ask is that you extend that courtesy to others. You are the ‘moral police’, as you seek to impose your views on others- I argue for the opposite, freeing epople from ‘community norms’.

    You would have loved it in the British Empire; a clear divide between whites and non-whites, and ‘community elders’ left to police ‘their’ people without fear that the law would stand up for the individually oppressed minority.

  66. MaidMarian — on 2nd September, 2010 at 9:18 am  

    damon – Whilst I take your point, some observations?

    You use the phrase, ‘chain migration,’ as though a naturalised UK citizen has the automatic right then to bring family to the UK from elsewhere. No such right exists (see the Surrinder Singh case from 1992). If that right ever existed it was removed some time ago. If we are going to use this as a start-point, at least the terms should be accurate.

    And cousin marriage is not illegal in the UK. What ever I think about it, it is not my business an no one is doing anything illegal. There is an argument it should be, and is in some places, but that is not the point.

    My own view is that provided these communities are not doing anything against the law, then it is no-one’s business and what was, ‘envisaged,’ does not matter. It’s no one else’s business.

    As for Dalbir, he’s just a panto dame. With two great big chips on each shoulder.

  67. RezaV — on 2nd September, 2010 at 10:29 am  

    Isn’t cultural enrichment wonderful? Let’s have more of it. More Pakistani immigration. More cousin marriage.

    Celebrate! Celebrate!

    Celebrate the diversity. Mmmm. Feel the vibrancy!

  68. MaidMarian — on 2nd September, 2010 at 10:48 am  

    And talking about panto dames…..

  69. Dalbir — on 2nd September, 2010 at 10:54 am  

    All I care about is that individuals have freedom of chocie. You can marry who you want Dalbir. All I ask is that you extend that courtesy to others. You are the ‘moral police’, as you seek to impose your views on others- I argue for the opposite, freeing epople from ‘community norms’.

    What you fail to see is that you yourself do the very thing you speak of by insisting on your own preference, itself based on your own understanding of things and your own world view. We can call these things your own bias. When you go down that route, how is it any different from previous attempts at ‘civilising the natives’?

    You would have loved it in the British Empire; a clear divide between whites and non-whites, and ‘community elders’ left to police ‘their’ people without fear that the law would stand up for the individually oppressed minority.

    Are you sure I would have liked white people lording it about like that? Or seeing brown people sink to the most undignified, lowest levels of sycophancy. Think again. Plus what you mention above is way off. My community were ‘oppressed’ like you describe above. Curious how they managed to shake this off without these types of helpful ‘laws’ you mention.

    Let’s get this straight here. I’m talking about that interfering, judgmental streak from people like yourself, that although well meaning, frequently ends up causing even more problems out there. I fully realise now that the proponents of this will not cease until they get their hands severely burnt, or are overwhelmed with other issues closer to home, to be bothered about their policing.

    In the end, it seems that cultural imperialism is alive and kicking, curiously from the very lefty sources that act like they were disgusted with their ancestors actions along the same vein.

    And before anyone gets uppity, I’m calling it like I’m seeing. Plus I’m wondering about this forum these days. Does it really allow a platform for people of SA heritage, or is it just a megaphone for ‘lefty’ whites and their ‘apeing’ brown converts?

  70. MaidMarian — on 2nd September, 2010 at 11:19 am  

    ‘I’m talking about that interfering, judgmental streak’

    Sorry, are you the same Dalbir who called me an, ‘undercover Nazi,’ earlier?

  71. Rumbold — on 2nd September, 2010 at 11:22 am  

    Heh MaidMarian #68.

    Dalbir:

    What you fail to see is that you yourself do the very thing you speak of by insisting on your own preference, itself based on your own understanding of things and your own world view.When you go down that route, how is it any different from previous attempts at ‘civilising the natives’?

    It is the opposite- I am arguing for individuals to have the freedom to choose, not to choose who I think is suitable. And if person x is stopping person y choosing their partner, then that is where the oppression comes in.

    Let’s get this straight here. I’m talking about that interfering, judgmental streak from people like yourself, that although well meaning, frequently ends up causing even more problems out there.

    On the contrary, I am not judging a person’s choice, and am trying to get you to agree to do the same.

    And before anyone gets uppity, I’m calling it like I’m seeing. Plus I’m wondering about this forum these days. Does it really allow a platform for people of SA heritage, or is it just a megaphone for ‘lefty’ whites and their ‘apeing’ brown converts?

    Two of the main four writers on the site are brown Sikh males. And I am not a lefty. Perhaps you could explain the difference between ‘people of SA heritage’ and ‘brown converts’. Is the difference between those who agree with you and those who disagree with you?

    As for not providing a voice, this is your ninth comment on a single thread. Are you suggesting we are censoring others?

  72. Dalbir — on 2nd September, 2010 at 11:36 am  

    who called me an, ‘undercover Nazi,’ earlier?

    If the cap fits, wear it.

  73. MaidMarian — on 2nd September, 2010 at 12:07 pm  

    Dalbir – OK, let’s talk about the cap. Earlier on this thread I asked, about that Nazi comment:

    ‘Those are some pretty serious aspersions to be casting, would you be so kind as to say what it is that makes you think that about me?’

    I’d be interested in your thoughts.

  74. Dalbir — on 2nd September, 2010 at 12:16 pm  

    Rumbold:

    It is the opposite- I am arguing for individuals to have the freedom to choose, not to choose who I think is suitable. And if person x is stopping person y choosing their partner, then that is where the oppression comes in.

    Okay, let’s just say you have a strong belief in this matter. Fair enough. A person voices their opinion on the said matter, fair enough.

    The community in question, generally disagree and continue (largely) as they have. Now how far do you think you should go with this?

    On the contrary, I am not judging a person’s choice, and am trying to get you to agree to do the same.

    And you can’t see this as you pushing your preference for an individualistic society over the corporate type characterising other societies?

    Two of the main four writers on the site are brown Sikh males. And I am not a lefty. Perhaps you could explain the difference between ‘people of SA heritage’ and ‘brown converts’. Is the difference between those who agree with you and those who disagree with you?

    The only writer who seems to actually broach on issues that link to heritage or is not perversely angst ridden about their identity here seems to be Jai. Plus the mere fact that we have some ‘brown Sikh’ writers doesn’t mean that these people can’t be toadies who are mouthpieces for others (I’m not saying the writers here are that before anyone gets excited, I’m just pointing out that co-opting, promoting tokens is an age old strategy used by white British people in power, so having brown faces around doesn’t mean a thing, if they are ones hand picked by others for motivated reasons).

    But okay, on the strength of Jai’s contributions, I withdraw my statement concerning the forum completely being a mouthpiece for other’s agenda.

    There is no issue with people disagreeing with me. What needs to be pointed out however is that in presenting dissenting views (like you do), don’t detract from trying to understand the majority view or try and demonise it. It goes back to that old nit picking habit. Again all you are doing is airing your preference in the end. No community is perfect. I believe all communities can progress and evolve in a positive fashion left to their own devices and given time. That we may have to live in a situation where activities take place that are contrary to our own beliefs is obvious. I’m saying the best policy is largely accepting it as outside of your sphere. Thsi isn’t because of indifference but rather the understanding that in less tense situations a community eases up and gets more tolerant. Conversely, this very interference approach, in macro or micro form usually causes as much if not more problems than before. Look where trying to ‘straighten out’ Afghanistan got Britain.

    This on top of the conspicuous way western folk pick and choose these causes they espouse, whilst turning blind eyes to other injustices.

    As for not providing a voice, this is your ninth comment on a single thread. Are you suggesting we are censoring others?

    It is not about censuring others, more giving precedent to those that parrot what their puppet masters want, usually against their own community.

  75. damon — on 2nd September, 2010 at 12:36 pm  

    MaidMarian

    You use the phrase, ‘chain migration,’ as though a naturalised UK citizen has the automatic right then to bring family to the UK from elsewhere. No such right exists …

    You’re right, the term chain migration is not quite the right one. I meant it in the way that in the loosest sense my own parents did it coming to London from rural Ireland 50 years ago, because they were following an already well worn path and settled in areas where they had contacts and there was a ready made Irish community in which to ease themselves into their new environment.
    And the importance of contacts and an existing community of people from your home region is one of the biggest pull factors about drawing a person from overseas to some corner of England or Canada or anywhere. How they do it as long as it’s legal may well be nobody’s business.

    My own view is that provided these communities are not doing anything against the law, then it is no-one’s business and what was, ‘envisaged,’ does not matter. It’s no one else’s business.

    Personally I agree with you. I know what I suggest is almost imposible on the open internet I have found, but I would find it interesting if it was possible to discuss the positivity or not, that the wider community had for the demographic change that takes place in the modern western world, where places that were once pretty homogeneous and white, become like our most multi-racial/cultural neighbourhoods.
    Because ‘incomers’ can change a place beyond recognition in a few short years, particularly so if they are a very tight and inward looking commuity who work very closely as a community – which is what the people from Pakistan who moved to Yorkshire and Lancashire did do.
    My experience of discussing something like this though is that it can be fraught on an open internet setting, as on liberal sites, the primary aim of many posters (often) is to work out the right and correct position to take on a subject. And on something like we’re discussing here, maybe just the legal one.
    That’s why I got a lot of stick on PP for that time I talked about being disappointed to hear the sermon in the main Dublin mosque was all about the ”Zionist entity” wanting to tear down the Al Aqsa mosque.
    It was none of my business I was told. And anyway, what was I doing in the mosque if I wasn’t a muslim?
    My point in raising that and going there, had been to see the very new muslim community in Dublin. And to wonder how they got to be there. Quite a number are students I know know, some were asylum seekers, and some are EU citizens from other countries.
    I just thought it a great pity to hear such a rubbish sermon. Was there nothing else worth talking about I had thought.

  76. damon — on 3rd September, 2010 at 11:41 am  

    While it is nobody’s business how a person came to be living in a country – it still has knock on effects, as I think can be picked up here in this ten minute audio piece from the Dublin taxi ranks – where like I’m sure was the case in Yorkshire 30 years ago, there is a certain tension between the long established local Irish drivers and new drivers. This time from Africa.
    How the Africans got to be living in Ireland in the first place is a subject that can quickly turn to prejudice in Ireland in my experience. There is a common perception held that the majority lied their way in. That might be unfair, but it’s what a lot of people think. That the enconomy is in a mess and there are already too many taxis going after too few passengers doesn’t help.
    It’s worth a listen – just click on the button in the first post.
    http://irishtaxi.org/?p=1960

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