Thug councillors


by Sunny
25th January, 2007 at 5:01 pm    

British ethnic minorities are constantly told by politicians and the media that this is a tolerant country and that if people want to come here they should fit in with those values. Sure, this is a tolerant country, but what about the intolerance of ‘the natives’? What should be done about them? I only ask because:

British National Party (BNP) councillor David Enderby has so far refused to step down as a councillor in Redditch, in the west Midlands, despite his conviction for assault yesterday.

Enderby has shown no sign of giving up his seat, and the thousands of pounds of taxpayers money he pockets as a result. He is the second BNP councillor to be found guilty of violence recently. Kevin Hughes, Enderby’s agent in the elections, was sentenced to three months in prison for racially aggravated common assault last June.

Only two weeks ago the BNP Parliamentary candidate for Hull, Brian Wainwright, was found guilty after a campaign of hate mail against the local mosque, a Muslim councillor and a local anti-fascist activist.

In the same week a BNP activist in Swindon, Mark Bulman, who has used the pseudonym Bullock, was sentenced to five years after attempting to firebomb a local mosque using a BNP leaflet as a fuse.

Is it ok to tolerate convicted thugs being part of the political process even if they want to ‘spill the blood’ of citizens? What does that say about the notions of tolerance? Where do the boundaries lie?


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  1. Ravi Naik — on 25th January, 2007 at 5:16 pm  

    >> British ethnic minorities are constantly told by politicians and the media that this is a tolerant country and that if people want to come here they should fit in with those values. Sure, this is a tolerant country, but what about the intolerance of ‘the natives’?

    I think any country has the right to choose the kind of people it wants in. In that sense, it is wise that we choose people who at least understand what is like to live in a secular nation.

    For people who are already citizens, then it is a different story. And politicians can find incentives to promote tolerence, like shaming bigots, enacting tough hate laws, and understanding the concerns of the working class.

    I think it would be a mistake to ban the BNP. I rather have them out in the open, where they need to be in their best behaviour and saying with a straight face that they are not racist, then doing underground activities, like what we had in the days of C18.

  2. Sunny — on 25th January, 2007 at 5:25 pm  

    I think any country has the right to choose the kind of people it wants in.

    For people who are already citizens, then it is a different story.

    That seems to be the received wisdom, but it’s straightforward hypocrisy in practical terms. So why does that make it right? What about practice what you preach?

  3. Roger — on 25th January, 2007 at 5:49 pm  

    There’ve been problems in the past with expelling councillors who are convicted of crimes or can’t or won’t do their jobs. In the past when councillors weren’t paid it probably didn’t happen as often that they refused to resign. Equally- for very good reasons- it’s very hard to throw people off a council, but I’d have thought that conviction of a serious crime while a councillor should be enough to justify expulsion.

  4. Anas — on 25th January, 2007 at 6:22 pm  

    In the same week a BNP activist in Swindon, Mark Bulman, who has used the pseudonym Bullock, was sentenced to five years after attempting to firebomb a local mosque using a BNP leaflet as a fuse.

    Eh? Haven’t heard too much about that on the news.

  5. Don — on 25th January, 2007 at 6:42 pm  

    The rule is that you can’t stand for a council if you have a criminal conviction which carries a three month minimum sentence within the past five years. If you commit the offence while in office a tribunal can decide on what action to take.

    So Hughes is out of the running for the next five years, but Enderby is problematic as there was no jail time attached. As the conviction was only a couple of days ago the council haven’t really had time to set up the process. I believe expulsion is an option if he is held to have brought the council into disrepute. Of course he could resign, but as that would be the honourable thing to do one can scarcely expect it.

    Wasn’t his conviction over beating up his wife, rather than BNP connected? Equally disreputable.

    I suspect the reason that a criminal conviction does not automatically lead to expulsion from an elected office may have its roots in the way the democratic process developed, with bodies keen to limit the power of central or royal authority to remove people who had been democratically elected. The body itself retained that power, except in extreme cases. I could be wrong about that.

    Sunny, I don’t quite understand your point in #2.

  6. Bert Preast — on 25th January, 2007 at 6:53 pm  

    Anas:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/wiltshire/6235299.stm

    And you’ll REALLY enjoy this:

    Hoist by his own petardo :D

  7. Don — on 25th January, 2007 at 6:54 pm  

    Anas,

    Yeah, it was in the papers. Inside pages, about three column inches. Probably because he wasn’t bright enough to make a petrol bomb that actually caught fire (how difficult is that?). Bit of graffiti, slight damage to a door, so not really a major story, but his intentions were clear, hence the five years.

  8. Bert Preast — on 25th January, 2007 at 6:55 pm  

    Oh dear. Did I just break the page for everyone else, too?

    /o\

  9. Bert Preast — on 25th January, 2007 at 6:58 pm  

    “Probably because he wasn’t bright enough to make a petrol bomb that actually caught fire (how difficult is that?)”

    Even the Irish make it look easy. *scarpers*

  10. Katy — on 25th January, 2007 at 6:59 pm  

    He once asked a reporter here whether he was taking notes in Hebrew. He looked slightly disappointed when he was told it was actually shorthand

    I believe the phrase I am looking for is “lol” :D

  11. Bert Preast — on 25th January, 2007 at 7:01 pm  

    It’s worth knowing, so this is the story in the page breaking link above:

    “Moving on to a more grubby side of Swindon life – and I’m not suggesting that La Piper has ever or would ever firebomb a religious institution – in the last week we’ve seen a guy called Mark Bulman admit he tried to burn down Swindon’s Broad Street mosque earlier this year.

    Bulman, or Bullock as he is also called, has been a persistent irritant in recent times. He’s regularly been thrown off college sites for leafleting on behalf of far right groups, and has been known to bend the ear of anyone who comes into contact with him with “theories” of racial mixing – or rather how races shouldn’t meet.

    Now, the main thing is, this guy needs help, and let’s hope he gets some rather than just being either locked up for the rest of his life and left to fester, or being released and doing the same thing again.

    Advertisement continued…When he was in court last week the case was adjourned – after his guilty plea – so he could have psychiatric tests and, after listening to him for a while, there can’t be much doubt about his mental state. For example, jumping on the “Jews rule the media” conspiracy much beloved of far-right loons, he once asked a reporter here whether he was taking notes in Hebrew. He looked slightly disappointed when he was told it was actually shorthand, but never mind.

    But going back to hoisting people on their own petard, it’s more Bulman/Bullock’s relationship with the BNP which is illuminating.

    Go back a couple of months, and you’ll find that his was not the first attempt made at defacing the mosque. A teenager called Michael Matthews tried to set fire to the same mosque, and graffitied the Sikh temple in Kembrey Street.

    After he was sent down for it in January, a spokesman for the Swindon branch of the BNP said: “We don’t know anything about him.

    “We just want to say that justice has been done and he deserves to be locked up for this attack on the Muslim community.”

    The speaker? A certain Mark Bullock. Which tells you pretty much all you need to know about him, the BNP, and everything in between.”

    Credit to the Swindon Advertiser, story by Tom Morton, Friday 27th October 2006.

    Can someone remove or sort out the link?

  12. Don — on 25th January, 2007 at 7:05 pm  

    Somebody has. How do you do that? It always looks more stylish when the little blue link thingy says ‘this incident’ or ‘as here’ rather than three lines or URL (do I mean URL?)

  13. Bert Preast — on 25th January, 2007 at 7:16 pm  

    URL codes remain a mystery to me. It might have something to do with white vans. I’ll try and learn how things work before having another go. Apologies.

  14. mirax — on 25th January, 2007 at 7:48 pm  

    Re : Sunny, I don’t quite understand your point in #2.

    That could well be due to the fact he has no point but earnest highminded waffle.

  15. Sunny — on 25th January, 2007 at 8:03 pm  

    Ah Mirax, ever the sane voice of reasoned debate.

    I said:
    That seems to be the received wisdom, but it’s straightforward hypocrisy in practical terms. So why does that make it right? What about practice what you preach?

    Essentially, the idea that people in the UK can be as intolerant, racist and homophobic as they want, while the people coming into this country should subscribe to different values, is a bit hypocritical on the face of it.

    It is perceived wisdom of course, that we’re doing immigrants a favour by letting them in so they should do what we tell them. I’m not sure I quite see it that way because the relationship is two-way: the immigrants either brings in much needed skills or does the kind of jobs at low pay and extra hard-work that others are not willing to do.

    Morally there are double standards here. If people are going to preach about values, surely the maxim ‘practice what you preach’ should apply? I’m just stating that there is an element of hypocrisy here that should be challenged.

    Secondly, at what point do we draw the line in what we expect from elected councillors? Is it ok to then elect a Hizb ut-Tahrir councillor who openly states a willingness to discriminate against non-Muslim people in that constituency?

  16. mirax — on 25th January, 2007 at 8:46 pm  

    >>Essentially, the idea that people in the UK can be as intolerant, racist and homophobic as they want,while the people coming into this country should subscribe to different values, is a bit hypocritical on the face of it.

    See, you trip and fall at the very first step sunny! Is there really such encouragement of racism, bigotry and homophobia in the UK? In spite of laws and institutions to promote the exact opposite ideals? So you are some cretins – like all other places – and your brilliant argument is that it is unfair to not not let in some foreign born cretins for fear of appearing hypocritical?

    Say why not you push the idea of deporting one bigotted UK born and bred moron for every good immigrant that is let in? That *is* your argument taken to its logical end.

    >.Secondly, at what point do we draw the line in what we expect from elected councillors? Is it ok to then elect a Hizb ut-Tahrir councillor who openly states a willingness to discriminate against non-Muslim people in that constituency?

    You know very well that Don answered the question – something you neglected to do- about removing councillors with criminal records. You think these safeguards aren’t enough? Well you are ever the campaigner aren’t you? BNP or Hizbi councillors are presumably going to be elected by their constituents; i believe you are free to campaign against them, no? what do you really mean by all this palaver about ‘drawing the line’ ? An outright ban? Having problems with democracy?

  17. mirax — on 25th January, 2007 at 8:50 pm  

    So you are some cretins = so you HAVE some cretins

  18. douglas clark — on 25th January, 2007 at 9:09 pm  

    Don,

    It seems to me that, if you can’t get a job because you have a criminal record it might be easier to get an income as a councillor. You have to do something pretty bad to get banged up for six months. Whereas an old conviction for shoplifting would preclude your employment almost anywhere.

    Mirax,

    Do you think the legislation is tight enough? I think that, in addition to the exclusions Don listed, every candidate should be obliged to reveal any criminal convictions on their election material – just as you or I would have to do if applying for a job. For some, it is a badge of honour, like being arrested at a demo. For others, it is just sleazy.

  19. douglas clark — on 25th January, 2007 at 9:12 pm  

    Don,

    Sorry, please read three months, not six. Point still stands though, I think.

  20. El Cid — on 25th January, 2007 at 9:36 pm  

    ‘Say why not you push the idea of deporting one bigotted UK born and bred moron for every good immigrant that is let in? That *is* your argument taken to its logical end.’

    Kapow!

    Actually Mirax, that sounds like a great TV game show.
    I’m on the phone to Endemol and Luke Johnson rightaway

  21. mirax — on 25th January, 2007 at 9:44 pm  

    >>I’m on the phone to Endemol and Luke Johnson rightaway

    Just make sure I get my cut of the profits, El ;-)

  22. Sunny — on 26th January, 2007 at 12:11 am  

    See, you trip and fall at the very first step sunny! Is there really such encouragement of racism, bigotry and homophobia in the UK? I

    As you fall over yourself to fire off a quick post trying to show me up Mirax, you may want to notice my words above saying: “sure, this is a tolerant country”, and generally you may also want to try and remember my attitude generally with regards to racism (even during CBB).

    So please, spare me the self righteous indignation, it’s boring. I’m giving you examples of what BNP councillors are doing and getting away with.

    That *is* your argument taken to its logical end. I suggest you try not to create logical conclusions for me in the future.

    what do you really mean by all this palaver about ‘drawing the line’ ? An outright ban? Having problems with democracy?

    What’s up mirax? Someone beat you up and stole your lunch money today or something? You sound as if every sentence has to be accompanied by a sarcastic jibe insinuating that I’m having a crisis. No I don’t have any problems with democracy, thanks for asking though. Now if you want to try and engage a bit more intelligently that would help too.

    Anyway, to answer your point Don.

    I’m not too convinced by the laws currently in place. As Douglas points out, you’d have to do a fair bit to get 6 months. But that does not even preclude someone openly demonstrating their discriminatory and racist views but not being convicted for it.

    Why shouldn’t a civilised democracy have checks in place so that elected people cannot discriminate on the basis of sex/race/religion etc?

    Given that some of these cretins clearly wish to discriminate in public office, and have been convicted to offenses in doing so, why should brown/black taxpayers be obliged to pay their salary?

    I’m posing this question here because while I accept the BNP’s right to exist and say what they want, I’m not sure if I fully accept the right of publicly elected officials to discriminate.

  23. Don — on 26th January, 2007 at 12:36 am  

    Sunny,

    I was speculating on how these laws and regulations evolved. As far as I can tell, on a quick google, three months + more or less rules you out. Less than that, a tribunal considers the case. Seems reasonable.

    ‘Why shouldn’t a civilised democracy have checks in place so that elected people cannot discriminate on the basis of sex/race/religion etc?’

    We do, it takes a little while to apply, but we are discussing people who have beeen convicted. Other than that, what kind of checks would you suggest?

    ‘why should brown/black taxpayers be obliged to pay their salary?’

    What?

  24. Sunny — on 26th January, 2007 at 12:51 am  

    We do, it takes a little while to apply, but we are discussing people who have beeen convicted.

    What I mean is.. now that they’re convicted, how do we ensure they don’t discriminate?

    What?

    Since local people pay council tax to support the local govt structure, why should they be obliged to if the councillors are openly racist?

  25. Clairwil — on 26th January, 2007 at 1:19 am  

    ‘Since local people pay council tax to support the local govt structure, why should they be obliged to if the councillors are openly racist?’

    I’m sympathetic to the point you are making. One could insert bigotted, sexist, anti-gay and so on into the above sentence. However I just don’t see it as something that would work in practice. After all we have the right to elect racists/morons/sexists if a majority choose to.

    Personally I’d like to see the opposition parties set up ‘shadow surgeries’ in constituencies where the BNP hold office to allow people to bypass their councillor for help and hopefully generate enough goodwill to unseat the fuckers at the next election. Every BNP victory is a sign that people feel the mainstream parties have failed them. Address that and we’re half-way to getting shot of them.

    With regard to criminal conduct by councillors, there is a ‘Standards Commission’ in Scotland and a ‘Standards Board’ in England and Wales which deal with complaints against individual councillors. There is also a recognised code of conduct in place which councillors should adhere to. I haven’t read it in full but I would think it extends to criminal conduct. It does cover things like being verbally abusive to other councillors and members of the public. Is enough use being made of it?

  26. Refresh — on 26th January, 2007 at 3:37 am  

    Politics is a truly dirty business.

    I recall an incident, a very unfortunate incident in a town where I once lived.

    A very gentle man got into the role by sheer hard work supporting his community (in the proper sense), and finally was persuaded that he should stand for election. In his 40′s he finally becomes a councillor, and as expected, a very good one.

    For some incredibly bizarre reason he fell foul of the leadership of his party ( the leadership was maintaining its position of power through an unwritten and often denied pact). This popular councillor seemed to be challenging this peculiar arrangement.

    Soon after the local rag, not known for its subtlety, ran a hatchet job on him. As a teenager he had been cautioned for exposing himself in the local park.

    Based on that he was forced to stand down.

    So question is what won’t your political friends and enemies do to do you down, if you get in the way.

    There was uproar, with huge amount of public support for the councillor, but the leadership stood firm. Citing female councillor colleagues would not work with him.

    Interestingly enough couple of years later, the leader at the time himself later got ambushed for supposedly shady dealings in his business along with one or two other councillors from the other parties.

    As for past crimes and misdemeanours there is a very strong case for the concept of spent convictions. However in politics it need not work like that because perception, personality and friends (and enemies) in high places and media can make all the difference.

    Personally the spent conviction ideal should also apply to politicians.

    As for politicians and discrimination, I am afraid that is what politics is all about. They may call it priorities to address their electorate’s concerns.

    Where you can tackle politicians on discrimination is at the poing of delivery of service and you do it legally via the ombudsman for example, and you do it through the ballot box.

    Clairwil is absolutely right about shadow surgeries (I can tell she is active), and a general presence in the enemy camp is good for morale of your supporters as well as keeps the opposition’s resources localised so they can’t readily spread into adjacent wards. In most cases this is also done through alliances with other parties specifically to stop them getting a toe-hold.

    There is your strategy for dealing with the BNP. Its worked before, and it will again because inherently we the Brits are fair and support the underdog. CBB proved it, didn’t it?

  27. Refresh — on 26th January, 2007 at 3:46 am  

    Bert

    That has to be the best of all the links spotted on PP – possibly.

    Funny? Very funny!

  28. Ravi Naik — on 26th January, 2007 at 9:55 am  

    >> Morally there are double standards here. If people are going to preach about values, surely the maxim ‘practice what you preach’ should apply? I’m just stating that there is an element of hypocrisy here that should be challenged.

    Sunny, there is a double-standard… but in my view it works on our favour. When immigrants are told to conform, the message goes to those who wish to change our secular Britain, into a divided and more fundamentalist Britain. I don’t see any good in bringing people who share anti-semitic, homophobic, anti-non-white, anti-western, misogynist feelings. While the Left has a knee-jerk reaction to protect immigrants, I share no allegiance to people who share these ideals.

    You have to look no further than France, and Le Pen’s party FN. Unlike Nick Griffin’s party, FN does recruit non-whites and muslims including in their political lists, and they have also made posters with black people asking to vote for them. And surprisingly, there are many muslims who vote for Le Pen, because they share his anti-semitic values. So, in a way, fundamentalism makes strange bedfellows.

    For the last 30-years, there has been a considerable amount of re-education in racial and cultural matters in this country to the point that open ‘racism’ has become a taboo and deemed unacceptable. While this was happening, I think the system overlooked extremism from those who came from abroad, and where openly spouting hatred. We only started looking at this problem after 9/11 and 7/7.

    Because open ‘racism’ is such a taboo, the BNP has to operate on code-words. For instance, the BNP is anti-immigrant, but for them immigrants are non-whites. We know that, they know that, but the ballerina doesn’t. One could argue that’s not really fair… that the BNP or any party should be free to propose voters their own view of what Britain should be. But they can’t in black-and-white terms: so we are constraining our democracy for the sake of a secular non-racist Britain.

    And I wouldn’t challenge that double-standard.

  29. Nick — on 26th January, 2007 at 10:46 am  

    Er… aren’t Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams former convicts?

  30. Nick — on 26th January, 2007 at 11:01 am  

    Sorry, anyway – I’ve said this before: the trouble with the BNP is they are racists twats.

    But anti racism in the UK, as Ravi implies, is in itself almost racist – it is such a catch all that extremism and intolerance on the part of incoming communities or individuals has been, until recently at least, a no-go “cultural” issue.

    So if my white neighbour beats his wife then I call the police, if my brown one does, well that’s the culture, innit. Don’t want to be thought racist, do I.

    We are (and have been for some time I think) approaching Orwellian territory. A friend of my girlfriend, a somewhat endearingly niave middle-aged anarchist and former socialist worker, still working as a postman among the working classes all these years, was recently suspended without pay alongside two colleagues after racist accusations were levelled at him by a woman, something of a shirker apparently, who he had the temerity to challenge about her behaviour.

    Slap – accused of racism, the three white guys were “convicted” without any opportunity to challenge the decision. One apparently suffered a nervous breakdown.

    You’ll say oh there are two sides etc, but we all know this sort of thing is commmon… and franky it does NOBODY any good. While non-whites are encouraged to see every criticism as racist, then they are not going to feel part of our society are they? Cos we’re all out to get ‘em, right? Wrong.

  31. Kismet Hardy — on 26th January, 2007 at 11:05 am  

    “the trouble with the BNP is they are racists twats.”

    That’s as succint as a sentence can hope to get

    Genius

  32. El Cid — on 26th January, 2007 at 11:18 am  

    Since local people pay council tax to support the local govt structure, why should they be obliged to if the councillors are openly racist?

    I think this would be political folly because it would invite the much larger Daily Mail brigade to advocate non-payment of local taxes to PC-obsessed loony left councils spending too much money on minority interests (some worthy, others open to ridicule time) instead of focusing on the issues that really matter to local people, etc

  33. Sahil — on 26th January, 2007 at 11:44 am  

    Hi Ravi want to take up your point over here:

    “surprisingly, there are many muslims who vote for Le Pen, because they share his anti-semitic values. So, in a way, fundamentalism makes strange bedfellows.”

    Did you receive this from this article (the New York Sun)?

    http://www.nysun.com/article/27822

    Because other commetators have pretty much debunked it:

    http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2006/02/the_new_york_su.html

    I certainly won’t deny the high levels of anti-semitism amongst french muslims (grave yards being desicrated, synagogues being spray painted, violent assults, etc.), I think the new EU commission has been tracking this development, there seems to be high level of correlation with anti-semitism and the start of the second intifada:

    http://eumc.europa.eu/eumc/index.php?fuseaction=content.dsp_cat_content&catid=1

    But it seems that politics is local. French muslims seem surprisingly republican. Not surprisingly since they tend to be poorer, they also vote less. Here is a study on voting patterns of french muslims (2006) from Stephanie Giry which was originally published in foreignaffairs.org:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/10/france_and_its_muslims_1.html

  34. Refresh — on 26th January, 2007 at 11:54 am  

    Ravi

    That’s an astonishing post regarding France and Le Pen. Do you have evidence to support it? What levels of support does he get from black, muslims and jewish voters?

    Its a standard strategy for Le Pen and BNP to co-opt minorities (in very minor numbers) so they can be called rational not racist. I am sure here in the UK, the BNP were keen to add Sikhs to there number ( as they seem to be to adding Jews). And same in France.

    I am sure your explanation would not disappoint me.

  35. A councillor writes — on 26th January, 2007 at 12:04 pm  

    (comes out of a years lurking on this very interesting site)

    BNP councillors are about the worst thing that can happen to an area. Their track record so far on attendance at meetings and their abilities to do casework etc. are very limited. Also, you can imagine the amount of resistance to them within the council workforce – especially in an authority like mine.

    One very short term BNP councillor even announced that she wasn’t going to have surgeries as we know them, but sort of mass surgeries where everyone could speak. I would estimate that 90% of people attending our ward surgeries have problems they would prefer not to discuss with others present. She only attended one of the three full council meetings whilst she was a member anyway.

    Luckily, I think only one or two wards have a “full slate” of BNP councillors and therefore in most places where one is elected, there are councillors of other political hues to turn to.

    Where there isn’t, I would hope that neighbouring councillors would consider Clairwil’s idea of shadow surgeries, although the organisation of those is likely to be a PITA and there can be difficulties in how you organise those which lead to the Standards Board being involved.

    The Standards Board to be honest is a curates egg, there is a need for such a thing, but it spends and awful lot of time and public money investigating complaints that are either politically motivated (i.e. in my city one party was encouraging its supporters to report opposition councillors for virtually nothing) or even by council officers (who have organised complaints against people they feel to be troublesome councillors).

    As to why people elect BNP councillors, that’s a very complex thing. The BNP get around 900 votes in my ward (fear not, I got over 2500 and another opponent got over 1500) and I would say that a lot of their votes come from people who feel excluded from the process or who feel that they are getting a bad deal from their council rather than hardcore racists – although there certainly is an element of that. Also, the councillors are active in the area, leaflets 6 times a year outside of elections, etc, whilst in some areas where the BNP have thrived there has been a long period of councillors who are perceived to be lazy.

  36. Roger — on 26th January, 2007 at 12:13 pm  

    ” the idea that people in the UK can be as intolerant, racist and homophobic as they want, while the people coming into this country should subscribe to different values, is a bit hypocritical on the face of it. ”
    That isn’t the idea, though. As people have pointed out there are laws against practising intolerance and bigotry which apply to everyone in this country. The attitude is we have quite enough bigots already, therefore we don’t want any more and with immigrants we can be more selective.

  37. Leon — on 26th January, 2007 at 12:14 pm  

    (comes out of a years lurking on this very interesting site)

    You were lurking here before it existed?!

  38. Refresh — on 26th January, 2007 at 12:50 pm  

    Allowing or barring immigration based on perceived prejudices cannot be applied without prejudice.

    Who is going to decide which prejudice is more acceptable than an other? Who will decide that a particular prejudice is acceptable because its already in existence amongst a threshold level amongst the host population?

    When will a prejudice become acceptable?

    When does a potential immigrant prove he is prejudice free?

    I suspect this argument is very similar to that other one that will continue forever: Censorship.

    On a slightly different tack, and not intended to personalise and in the interest of seeking to understand:

    Sunny, how have your prejudices changed since you came to our pleasant land? Are they the same or have they transformed or are you more capable of suppressing them now as you’ve gotten older?

    Genuine questions.

  39. sonia — on 26th January, 2007 at 1:08 pm  

    yes of course it is obvious that the entire premise of the nation-state and ‘citizens’ is against the supposed fundamental human right of freedom of movement across the globe. we Shouldn’t have to point this out but there you go. That’s the first injustice. But unsurprisingly perhaps being in favour of ‘No Borders’ appears to be a pretty much radical sort of idea.

    but the system of nation states operates precisely on the premise that some group or other have managed to claim it for themselves (usually through warfare) and if anyone else wants some – go get some somewhere else.
    clearly there isn’t enough space in the world – but hey that doesn’t seem to bother too many people most of the time.

    p.s. sidenote – lots of councillors are well known for not turning up to meeting.

  40. El Cid — on 26th January, 2007 at 1:43 pm  

    NO borders operate within the EU, but that’s only after each member country has agreed to subscribe to a given set of principles and standards, and adjusted their laws, government structures, etc, to fit in with the rest. Presumably that then reflects on the make up of their citizens?

  41. sonia — on 26th January, 2007 at 1:50 pm  

    the EU is a step in the right direction.

  42. Jagdeep — on 26th January, 2007 at 2:08 pm  

    Refresh

    I am sure here in the UK, the BNP were keen to add Sikhs to there number ( as they seem to be to adding Jews). And same in France.

    You’re having a laugh arent you? The BNP are not adding Sikhs. They co-opted a slightly batty 70 year old Sikh man whose family were wiped out in partition who has a hatred for Muslims and used him in a few propaganda outlets. As for the ‘Jews’ they are ‘adding’, what are you smoking, crack? Sikhs have fought the BNP on the streets and everywhere they go. Don’t be so silly.

  43. A councillor writes — on 26th January, 2007 at 2:20 pm  

    Jagdeep – The BNP have a Jewish councillor in Epping Forest.

  44. Nick — on 26th January, 2007 at 2:26 pm  

    I thought it was well known the FN are co-operating with Islamists in a kind of anti-semitic conspiracy.

    Nazis… go figure.

  45. Jagdeep — on 26th January, 2007 at 2:26 pm  

    What the F**k?? A Jewish councillor? Must be one of those self hating Jews. Mark Collet is on film saying the Jews ‘must have done something’ to deserve the holocaust.

  46. Jagdeep — on 26th January, 2007 at 2:28 pm  

    Yeah Nick, MPACUK have linked to neo Nazi websites — strange alliances indeed.

    These people are freaky.

  47. Refresh — on 26th January, 2007 at 2:45 pm  

    Jagdeep

    You reinforce my point. This is what I actually said:

    “Its a standard strategy for Le Pen and BNP to co-opt minorities (in very minor numbers) so they can be called rational not racist.”

    I think recruiting Sikhs is (was) a part of their strategy – simply because they anticipate Sikhs may have “hatred for Muslims”.

    As for fighting them in the past, yes of course. And again in the future – if necessary.

  48. Jagdeep — on 26th January, 2007 at 2:52 pm  

    Refresh, the BNP have not recruited any Sikhs beyond a flatulent and senile old man. Get it?

  49. Refresh — on 26th January, 2007 at 2:52 pm  

    Nick

    “I thought it was well known the FN are co-operating with Islamists in a kind of anti-semitic conspiracy.

    Nazis… go figure.”

    Not well known at all!

  50. Refresh — on 26th January, 2007 at 2:55 pm  

    Jagdeep, relax.

    You misunderstand, we are talking about BNP – not Sikhs – and their strategies.

    Recall when they had an ethnic Turk (I think that was what he was) as their equal opportunities officer?

  51. Jagdeep — on 26th January, 2007 at 2:58 pm  

    Yeah i know, but I think sometimes people like you give the BNP, a bunch of knuckle scraping morons, more credit in their strategy than they deserve.

  52. Refresh — on 26th January, 2007 at 3:07 pm  

    Thank goodness – I thought we were in for Jai dropping in to encourage more manly hugs. Once is enough for a bloke.

  53. Sunny — on 26th January, 2007 at 3:45 pm  

    Thanks councillor, some very interesting points indeed.

    I’m not worried about the BNP’s long term survival in any area. They have consistently shown themselves to be gloriously incompetent.

    It is a shame the Standards Board is bogged down with so much crap.

    I would say that a lot of their votes come from people who feel excluded from the process or who feel that they are getting a bad deal from their council rather than hardcore racists

    The thing about BNP councillors (if that is the phrase to use) is that at least they force other parties to take democracy a bit more seriously.

  54. Ravi Naik — on 26th January, 2007 at 4:25 pm  

    >> Did you receive this from this article (the New York Sun)?

    I am aware of that article, Sahil. Though I would not trust any media that is a part of Murdoch’s empire. :)

    >> Its a standard strategy for Le Pen and BNP to co-opt minorities

    I think it’s more than that. FN is slowing moving from a nazi party, like the BNP, to look like the UKIP party. Can you imagine the BNP having posters like these?
    (this is an animated gif with all of Le Pen’s posters for this election… around 7 posters are shown).

    I don’t like Le Pen, but the Left can no longer dismiss Le Pen as a nazi. FN is the most popular right-wing party in France right now.

    Here are some links, with information about what is going on: 1 and 2.

  55. A councillor writes — on 26th January, 2007 at 4:35 pm  

    I don’t think all the BNP are knuckle scraping morons, although many of their foot soldiers are. One of their local leaders is a graduate engineer who lives in my ward but always stands in another adjoining ward. He’s not unintelligent, despite his vile views.

    It’s always best not to under-estimate them, they have learned a form of mono-cultural community politics and recent developments have seen them starting to attend some of the ward committee meetings we have.

    The emergence of the BNP from under their stone has made political parties sharpen up their act in a number of areas of this city, which can’t be a bad thing in the long run for the citizens. Also, we’ve had to face up to them, at first when they got derisory votes we just ignored them and hoped they would go away, but now we try to counter them.

  56. Sahil — on 26th January, 2007 at 6:10 pm  

    Hi Ravi, I saw these stories before, but I’ve added, that they make little difference to the actual voting patterns. I don’t buy this unholy alliance crap, Le Pen will not receive the muslim vote. The basic domestic policy of Le Pen against Muslims will make sure this does not happen. No matter what. I really recommend the article by foreign affairs, it really is an indepth analsysis.

  57. William — on 26th January, 2007 at 6:14 pm  

    A councillor writes

    “I don’t think all the BNP are knuckle scraping morons, although many of their foot soldiers are”

    This is part of the problem and why they are able to present a reasoned freindly face to some disatisfied people while behind that face lies a vile racism which has been exposed many times by investigators.

    To ban them outright would be problematic. It would be undemocratic. Also we would have to have to do it via definitions of racist. While much hard racism is obvious there is a boundary with a margin to that debate which is contestable. Once just saying immigration has to be curbed could be seen as racist and still is by some people although it can have a racist motive. There are however many people of differing ethnicities who would like some better controls on immigration.

    The best way to deal with the BNP is expose them, investigate them, show them up for what they represent and show the face to be a lie.

  58. Anon+1 — on 27th January, 2007 at 11:21 am  

    Tut tut, such an ability to turn a blind eye to extremists from other groups. Labours cash for honours and Bernie scandal, not to mention lots of minor scandals involving their MPs. Islams followers who like to blow up innocent people and beat their wives for showing an ankle accidentally and so on…
    Now do these few people represent the entire group as a whole? Of course they dont, so why are you all making that assumption on the BNP. Every group has its misguided individuals and the way they behave is unacceptable.

    The best way to challenge us is to debate on our policies, not taint the party using every cheap method going. BNP policies have a high level of growing support as we represent the native people of this country unlike most other parties who are hell bent on destroying Britains heritage and future.

  59. Katy — on 27th January, 2007 at 12:56 pm  

    we represent the native people of this country

    Ooh. Let’s play “define native”. It is my favourite game. Okay, I’ll start.

    I was born here, as were both sets of parents, both sets of grandparents and all but one set of great grandparents. The maternal side of my family tree is Polish/German Jewish. On the paternal side, one set of great grandparents can trace its roots in England to 1066, the others are Irish and Scottish.

    So am I a native? Or should I go back where I came from? Because I won’t lie to you, Anon: I don’t think I’d feel comfortable in Hendon anymore.

  60. Ravi Naik — on 27th January, 2007 at 1:47 pm  

    >> Every group has its misguided individuals and the way they behave is unacceptable….The best way to challenge us is to debate on our policies, not taint the party using every cheap method going…. we represent the native people of this country

    There is no compromise between your ideology or ours. You either believe that race is an important factor in determining who is allowed to live here, or you don’t. So there is no debate on this subject.

    But we can debate the tactics used to advance your ideology, like the constant demonisation of muslims and asians for the sins of a small minority (which isn’t to say it is not a problem). So for you to come here and say that every group has misguided elements, and that doesn’t reflect BNP is pure hypocrisy.

    The fact is that when you hear about BNP councillors, it’s either about their thughish behaviour, or their utter ignorance about their work. Not surprisingly, that is what we would expect from the BNP. Though I am not sure that people with such calibre actually represent the best interests of the “native” people.

  61. Ravi Naik — on 27th January, 2007 at 2:12 pm  

    >> I don’t buy this unholy alliance crap, Le Pen will not receive the muslim vote. The basic domestic policy of Le Pen against Muslims will make sure this does not happen.

    Sahil, I might be wrong about this. My opinion comes mainly from what I read in blogs, newspapers and the conversations I had with my french flatmate a few years ago.

    France does not promote multiculturism like Britain. It promotes a single Gallic culture for a multi-racial society. This I believe makes a huge difference how people perceive themselves: you are either French (integrated) or not (foreigner). People in school are taught they are French first, regardless of their religion or race.

    Remember that France managed to get away with banning the veil in schools without riots or anything of the sort, because the reasoning was that it helped ‘foreigners’ become integrated. I believe that such measures would be impossible to implement in Britain.

    So, the new FN is slowing smoothing down the racial rethoric and publically accepting the fact that integrated blacks and arabs are also part of the national fabric.

    I don’t believe that the majority of muslims will vote for FN in the next election. Most will remember how the party targeted them over these years. But it will definitely appeal to some.

  62. Anon+1 — on 27th January, 2007 at 2:12 pm  

    When you hear about muslims its all about bombings, voilent attacks or new mosques being built, so lets hush up on that front.
    The very reason you only hear about the BNP in such a negative way is because the powers that be only want to show the BNP in a bad way to stop people voting for them, building up this negative image and “Demonising” them too. Not showing how much its policies make sense and are benificial to the UK.

    Immigration is just a bonus in the reasons I support the BNP, I support them for wanting to back british industries + manufacturing. Their very left wing views on workers part ownership ideas, their strict punishments on criminals and perverts, reducing the benifits for greedy businesses who relocate abroad to supply the UK with a service while actually they employ no British workers, the list goes on.

    And Katy I dont care, aslong as you contribute to the economy.

  63. douglas clark — on 27th January, 2007 at 2:13 pm  

    Anon+1,

    “as we represent the native people of this country”

    Saying it don’t make it true. You sure as hell don’t represent me, and you never will.

  64. Anon+1 — on 27th January, 2007 at 4:25 pm  

    Then Douglas you are either part of the problem thats making this country slide into oblivion or blind to the world around you.
    Come live in the area ive lived in for 23 years and you will change, I mean just a few hours ago I saw a car with 2 hooded Asians dealing drugs to 2 addicts. On my travels I had to avoid the contents of someones bin that they had nicely dumped over the path and grass while also dodging all the dog shit that was smeared all over the pathway. On my way home I passed three girls that couldnt of been more than 14, dressed up like slappers heading in the direction of the areas local pub where all sorts of scum ferment.
    This was just in a 5 min walk to my local leisure centre that is frequently visited by young children.

    What do you represent Douglas? The New Labour or Conservative governments that have caused this mess or the Liberals who dont actually have any solid policies apart from abolishing tuition fees to win the student vote.

  65. Clairwil — on 27th January, 2007 at 4:36 pm  

    Anon,
    That sounds awful. If I were you I’d complain to the council, grass the pub up to the liscencing board and police for serving underage girls. Take a note of the dealers car registration and grass them up anonymously. Most of what you describe is illegal so there’s no need to tolerate it.

    On my way home today I saw some litter, picked it up chucked it in the bin. I saw mostly white people shopping, a couple of half cut afternoon drinkers (white) having a crafty fag outside the pub. More than a few cars and that’s about it. Some foreign students from the halls of residence along the road. A few lads in Celtic tops running for a bus.

    Maybe I am blind but that’s more or less the sort of thing I see everyday. I can’t see much to get angry about.

  66. Don — on 27th January, 2007 at 4:40 pm  

    Does the BNP have a policy on dog shit?

  67. ZinZin — on 27th January, 2007 at 4:44 pm  

    Please stop using the term “native” it makes me cringe.

  68. Clairwil — on 27th January, 2007 at 5:22 pm  

    ‘Does the BNP have a policy on dog shit?’

    I shall refrain from making the obvious joke.

  69. Ravi Naik — on 27th January, 2007 at 5:23 pm  

    Anon, you support BNP’s populist policies, but is there anything you could think of about the elected BNP officials that gives you any confidence about how they would govern this country?

  70. Ravi Naik — on 27th January, 2007 at 5:29 pm  

    >> ‘Does the BNP have a policy on dog shit?’

    I shall refrain from making the obvious joke.

    I think Don’s question pretty much qualifies as a joke. ;)

  71. Anon+1 — on 27th January, 2007 at 6:09 pm  

    ‘Does the BNP have a policy on dog shit?’
    I too will refrain from making the obvious joke.
    I noted that because it illustrates that people have no pride or respect for the country, especially in my multicultural inner-city hell hole.

    BNP are breaking into the councillors positions and its a pretty new experience, theres bound to be a few errors that wont be replicated again. It defies logic to place incompetent, selfish, criminal councillors when the BNP needs to improve its image to gain more support. Any who dont benifit the parties image and local areas needs id like to think be replaced ASAP.

  72. Roger — on 27th January, 2007 at 6:28 pm  

    “Please stop using the term “native” it makes me cringe. ” Because the term might be applied to you or because it might not?

    As another native- how, precisely do you define native, Anon+1? Is the fact that the BNP do not represent me mean that I’m a covert non-native?- I must say Anon+1′s description of his area sounds like any such area in an English city at any time for the last few hundred years. Drunkenness, depravity, litter and drug-taking are old English traditions which the natives have always enthusiastically followed.

  73. Anon+1 — on 27th January, 2007 at 6:40 pm  

    Thats not how the older generations of my family described it, I hear the typical “in my day we could leave the door open, people had respect, etc”

    I personally define native as someone whos history + family lines stretch back 80 or so years, give or take.

  74. Don — on 27th January, 2007 at 6:47 pm  

    Anon,

    No joke. Do you have one? Are BNP members pooper scoopers to a man? Do you own a dog? I won’t ask the breed, but do you scoop? Not letting your dog shit on the pavement is indeed a sign of having respect for your community. As clarwil very gently suggested, you can make that difference as an individual, there’s no need to go to the vicious ‘us and them’ racist squalor which is the BNP, its antecedents and its off-shoots. I mean, are you sure these were immigrant dogs? I have a vague feeling that muslims tend not to keep dogs as pets. Could they possibly have been the dogs owned by your own consituency? Most parties do have a dog shit policy, involving fines. The Lib-Dem policy is particularly cogent and effective. Anyone eligible to vote in the local elections in Tynedale should bear that in mind.

    I’m sorry if you don’t like where you live, if it’s that bad I’m sure there are a lot of other people who feel the same way. Some of them may well be trying to do something about it. Unfortunately, you are unlikely to meet them in any productive way because you have chosen a party based, first and last, on race. I don’t know where you live, but looking around your neighbourhood, is that even practical? There are alternatives.

    ‘ incompetent, selfish, criminal councillors …be replaced ASAP.’ By whom?

  75. Roger — on 27th January, 2007 at 7:36 pm  

    What; no “Drunk for a penny; dead drunk for twopence.”? No “Better England free than England sober.”? “No, “What two ideas are more inseparable than beer and Britannia?”?
    I have my doubts as to just how native you actually are.
    Give or take what, by the way?

  76. Anon+1 — on 27th January, 2007 at 7:37 pm  

    Don, get over yourself.
    Its not entirely based on race, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
    Give me an alternative please, I cant see any.

    As for doing something about it, next time I see someone whos dog fouled the pavement or grass where people walk and children play, i’ll follow them and kindly post it through their letterboxes, white asian or fluorescent green.

    The way to combat all this is to create a pride in the local area, educate and provide a future for the children who grow up surrounded by all this filth so yob attitudes and drug taking need not occur, any who persist in engaging in these activities be delt with severly, not given a badge of honour in the form of a ASBO.
    Install alot of CCTV around common trouble spots with more police on foot patrol. To go one step further, some parents around here are not fit to have children so id like to see some kind of birthing licence scheme be setup so they cant have any more children again.

    The list can go on but im only young myself so I guess my knowledge isnt great on what can work, but I do know the current system doesnt and the problem is only getting worse.

    It must be nice to live in sunny Tynedale Don where the troubles of people like me are irrelevant, wait till it comes knocking at your door.

  77. douglas clark — on 27th January, 2007 at 7:56 pm  

    Anon + 1,

    It’s always nice when the BNP tell me I’m part of the problem. It means I must be doing something right.

    I represent myself. FYI, this is probably the last web site on the planet that you should visit making spurious claims to represent folk when you clearly do not. When you get a majority of the popular vote, I’ll think about it. Until then, don’t claim what you don’t own.

    If your main problems are drug dealing, underage drinking, dog shit and litter, you are probably well on the way to establishing a populist party all on your own. Quite how any of that relates to the BNP’s core racist agenda is a bit beyond me. And, no, I don’t want a leaflet.

  78. El Cid — on 27th January, 2007 at 8:03 pm  

    Roger
    Disagree on the litter mate
    I’ve seen photos of my old street from the 60s.
    No comparison
    Wouldn’t blame it on just the one thing though

  79. Don — on 27th January, 2007 at 8:30 pm  

    Anon,

    ‘Don, get over yourself.’ Never going to happen. I’ve tried counseling.

    ‘Its not entirely based on race’ But it is. Maybe not for you, in your heart, but certainly for the party and tradition you have chosen.

    The solutions you propose, whether effective or not, are pretty basic and I see no need for them to be tied to a racist organisation. Do you really believe that the Asian families in your area are opposed to more police intervention in cases of anti-social behaviour?

    ‘some kind of birthing licence scheme be setup so they cant have any more children again.’
    As you say, you are young and maybe haven’t thought through where that idea could lead. I could almost agree with you, I see people every day and think ‘And they have absolute control over a child?’ But what would be your criteria? Racial purity?

    That may not be yours, but it certainly is that of the BNP.

  80. Roger — on 27th January, 2007 at 8:49 pm  

    Depends where you are, Don, and the removal of rubbish bins from a lot of places when the IRA were bombing didn’t help. However, some years ago I remember that people who’d come to Britain from Europe before and during WWII said one of the firat things they noticed was how much litter there was in the streets in England.

  81. El Cid — on 27th January, 2007 at 9:03 pm  

    Roger, It’s not Don but me you meant, and I live in London N4, Say no more

  82. tahir — on 27th January, 2007 at 9:51 pm  

    Native? Errmmmm. Not sure what it means. There is another word which crops up in BNP langguage – indigenous.

    It’s interesting how they use first nation language from north america which protects the right of minorities, to their own campaign.

    French multiculturalism is a tad wierd – they come at it from an intellectual, abstract tradition of rights – which makes sense on paper perhaps but then applied to real life when non-whitre French get discriminated – it doesn’t work. The French system has no way of monitoring or telling us if everyone is ‘integrated’ and gaining equal access to jobs. They don’t allow disaggregated statistics for monitoring. I don’t see how we can demand to see if services are accountable if we can’t tell many many women or minorities are accessing them?

    So for all it’s inadequacies, I like the british tradition of multiculturalism – built from pragmatism, muddling through, learning by doing – through precedent and trial and error. Not some abstrct notion of ‘French identity’.

  83. Anon+1 — on 27th January, 2007 at 11:00 pm  

    I have thought where the idea could lead, and it has the potential to be a dangerous thing to implement. However I see young children being bottle fed coca-cola, babies no more than a few months old with ear piercings galore, children that are only born to generate more income support. Near me I see kids no more than 5 years old hanging around the streets with mobile phones around their necks playing the latest 50 cent tune.
    A teen in my area was recently shot with the council paying for the funeral, the mother (by word of mouth from her “friends”) was rumoured to of said;
    “Well why should I have to pay for the funeral, I didnt bloody shoot him” so perhaps it is worth implementing.

    “To be born an Englishman is to win first prize in the lottery of life” Theres a quote for you Roger.

    However I dont believe any one race is superior to another and should be treated any differently, however I do believe in national identity and preservation of culture and values which I see bring eroded.
    I see the BNP wanting to stop immigration and put the (sorry zin) native people of this country first for jobs, stopping the influx of cheap labour that lowers wages for the poorer people and increases the wealth of the rich.

  84. douglas clark — on 28th January, 2007 at 3:41 am  

    Anon + 1,

    You have been subject to the most gentle ribbing imaginable here.

    I know I speak for no-one else, but I agree with you about kids being bottle fed coca-cola, idiots imposing their piercings on infants, wains listening to gangsta rap. But you are representing a party with a stupid solution to these problems. Find someone to blame, find a minority you can say “caused it all”.

    It is not true.

    The things you rail against are things perpetrated by white chavs. They need educated to stop the abuse they do.

    Anyway, you have made an attempt at communicating across barriers. Stick around. You might learn something. This is a very tolerant site.

    And to get my own racist dig in:

    “To be born an Englishman is to win first prize in the lottery of life”

    No, you won second prize, being adopted as a Scot is first prize. Think about it. We have little of your prejudice. We actually quite like foreigners. Admire them, even.

    Strange that.

  85. Anon+1 — on 28th January, 2007 at 9:40 am  

    Well im sure i’ll get over my ribbing, i’ll try not to lose too much sleep.

    + I dont think just education will cut it. How long have schools been around for now?

  86. El Cid — on 28th January, 2007 at 10:11 am  

    We have little of your prejudice

    Please Douglas, leave out the sickly tartan schmaltz.
    That is pure 100% distilled bullshit.
    Let me guess what’s next? The Scots will also wash their hands re the slavery trade, British Empire, etc.

    The things you rail against are things perpetrated by white chavs.

    Self-hating racism in no improvement on externally directed racism.

    Anon + 1, it is true that you have been subject to the most gentle ribbing imaginable. So why exactly is the dysfunctional society you describe down to immigration?

    Is the fallout from softly softly and misguided liberal education policies the fault of immigrants? Is the breakdown of traditional family structures the fault of immigrants? Is the glorification of the lowest common denominator the fault of immigrants? Is Britain’s penchant for violence the fault of immigrants? Is the regression of social mobility the fault of immigrants? I want you think about these things next time you visit the NHS and are treated by an Indian or West African doctor.

  87. Anon+1 — on 28th January, 2007 at 11:47 am  

    Where in the above did I blame immigrants for the disorders you describe? Only thing I blame them for is providing cheap labour that serves to lower wages or take jobs for people lower down the scale, in turn this can lead to social decline and resentment but its not the root of the problem. And i dont blame immigrants for wanting to come here, who wouldnt want to improve their life?

    Next time you visit an African or West Indian doctor, think about the unfortunate people in the countries they left behind that suffer from lack of adequate medical care.

  88. Clairwil — on 28th January, 2007 at 12:24 pm  

    ‘Think about it. We have little of your prejudice. We actually quite like foreigners. Admire them, even.’

    I don’t buy the Scot’s are less racist line at all, perhaps less likely to vote BNP who are regarded as right wing though parts of their manifesto are very much on the far left. It’s also worth noting that Scotland has a population shortage which may encourage a more pragmatic response to immigration. That said if you read ‘Bloody Foreigners’ by Robert Winder you’ll squirm with embarrassment at our behaviour over Irish immigration. Very reminiscent of much of the hysteria about Muslim immigration today.

    I’d recommend Robert Winder’s book to anyone with an interest in immigration either for or against. It’s pretty even handed and certainly opened my eyes to the amount and variety of immigration into Britain over the centuries. Perhaps the most striking thing of all is that we’ve always thought we were on the verge of being wiped out by it. Yet here we all are.

    On the subject of the litter thing. Jerome K Jerome once asked a Turkish visitor to Victorian London what he found most striking about England. His reply was ‘all the dirty paper you have blowing about the street’.

  89. Ravi Naik — on 28th January, 2007 at 12:25 pm  

    >> It defies logic to place incompetent, selfish, criminal councillors when the BNP needs to improve its image to gain more support.

    And yet, the BNP never ceases to disappoint by placing several incompetent, selfish, crime-prone councillors. And you say that these people serve the best interests of the “natives”. That is illogical to me.

    >> Is the breakdown of traditional family structures the fault of immigrants?

    There was an interview with a BNP candidate a few years back. To all the ills in this country, the candidate would mention immigration as the cause. So the reporter asked sarcastically about the traffic problem in London (before the congestion charge was introduced), and the candidate immediately said that by deporting immigrants it would definitely ease the traffic problem in London. Classic BNP moment. :)

  90. Clairwil — on 28th January, 2007 at 12:35 pm  

    ‘Let me guess what’s next? The Scots will also wash their hands re the slavery trade, British Empire, etc.’
    And on that very subject…..

    One for the Glaswegians reading. There is a free lecture at the St Mungo Museum on Scotland and her churches role in the slave trade at 2pm today.

    http://www.glasgowmuseums.com/venue/showEvent.cfm?venueid=13&itemid=531

  91. El Cid — on 28th January, 2007 at 12:44 pm  

    Anon +1,
    Do you or do you not support the BNP, which is primarily an anti-immigrant party?
    I think you’ll also find that most West African and Indian NHS doctors are actually British West African or British Indian second, third, even fourth gen immigrants educated on British resources.
    You of course might have a difficulty with that concept — but if it helps, it’s a bit like former England rugby captain Lawrence Dallaglio, a descendent of Italian immigrants, or Wayne Rooney, the Anglo-Paddy.
    I would also point out that immigrants have also helped to offset “native” emigration (part brain drain) to Oz, NZ, South Africa, Canada, and USA, and helped to counter the regressive economics of an aging population, as well making some trades more competitive and keeping waging inflation down.
    In other words, we’re trying to put the Great back into GB (assuming the sweaties stick around of course).

  92. Ravi Naik — on 28th January, 2007 at 2:02 pm  

    >> Do you or do you not support the BNP, which is primarily an anti-immigrant party?

    In my view, the BNP is primarily a racist party, which masks itself as an anti-immigration party because you know, open racism is deemed unacceptable. The BNP didn’t make a big fuss about the new eastern european immigrants, as they would if non-europeans had free access to Britain. Their ideology is that only whites (preferably from non-mediterranean extraction) should live in Britain.

    While I abhor this ideology and any ideology that excludes people based on superficial traits, I do believe that every country has the right to control immigration, to make sure that immigration continues to serve the best interests of the nation, without conflating it with racist and xenophobic ideology.

  93. Anon+1 — on 28th January, 2007 at 2:27 pm  

    So the £26.6+ Billion trade gap, the loss of Britians manufacturing industry and increased reliance on China’s is making this place great again?

    Please explain to me how immigrants make industries more competitive? The way I see it, is that they lower wages and therefore costs of the firm, enabling a lower product price or higher profit margin for the owners. Companies in dirct competition with this buisness are forced into lowering wages too, as price is usually the main factor when gaining custom.

    So this benifits people on the lower wage scale how exactly? it benifits the owners.
    Do you own a business El Cid?

  94. Clairwil — on 28th January, 2007 at 3:06 pm  

    ‘So the £26.6+ Billion trade gap, the loss of Britians manufacturing industry and increased reliance on China’s is making this place great again?’

    That’s capitalism old bean. In any case if all immigrants stayed at home they’d only be providing a bigger low pay workforce for multi-national companies, who will simply relocate to where the costs are lowest.

  95. El Cid — on 28th January, 2007 at 3:49 pm  

    Anon+1,
    So let me see if I can try and figure this out.

    You’re really against globalisation in general — of trade, flow of capital, etc — and you associate greatness only with manufacturing?

    That’s very quaint but life has moved on.

    Globalisation is the inevitable march of history and we should make sure we can remain as fighting fit as possible to deal with it and contain its excesses. You can’t roll back the tsunami of global economics — it’s surf or sink. Sure we have a large trade deficit but it’s not unmanageable and the the last time we didn’t have one was the early 1980s when we exported more oil and had the Thatcher recession (i.e. we were relatively poor and imported less, rather than export more).

    Our overall balance of payments is also in better shape (export of invisibles, income from assest owned abroad). That’s why the pound is strong.

    The decline of our manufacturing industries is an old, old story. The rise of out intellectual capital, service industries, and London taking over NY to become the world’s #1 financial centre is a newer one (OK, we’ve always been hot on finance but we’ve stepped up a level).

    Don’t you think that a country of 60 million being the world’s fifth biggest economy and consistently punching above it’s weight is not impressive? We look pretty good compared with our European neighbours too.

    That said, there is much damaging social fallout. The rich & South East gets richer, the rest of the country and poor get poorer. There is something horrible about the idea of “global employment arbitrage”. There is something heinous about the rich benefitting from the harsh capitalist logic of capital seeking the lowest cost of production and shifting jobs to other countries. And we need to address that. But what has immigration got to do with it? Look at the Gourmet Gate epsiode — who were the natives there feeling the brunt of globalisation — Asians mainly. What about Rover — West Indian, Asian, and white. etcetera

    Oh, you mean Polish plumbers and Kosovan labourers, etc (take note Ravi)? But that’s also helped to create demand for home improvemengt, by making it more affordable, and is about the internal market not external, geddit?

    What would you have us do — create some kind of autarky? That’s for losers. We’d fall further and further behind. If you were a true patriot, you’d appreciate that.

    Life is competitive and I want my country to be the smartest, strongest, and most clued up it can be. So we should focus out energies on making sure it is by challenging chav culture (for me chav is not stricly white but a multicouloured disregard for excellence and knowledge), helping people to retrain, providing a welfare net, etc. But let’s not be lazy victims eh?
    Everyone wants to be a fucking victim these days.

  96. Ravi Naik — on 28th January, 2007 at 5:17 pm  

    >> Oh, you mean Polish plumbers and Kosovan labourers, etc (take note Ravi)?

    Er….?

  97. douglas clark — on 28th January, 2007 at 5:24 pm  

    El Cid,

    Re my post 84, and yours of 86. Yeah, re Scotland, it is ridiculous, which was, sort of, the point. I was trying to point out, and failed miserably, that anyone can play the nationalist card. Ho hum.

    Not so sure that you are right to accuse me of self hating racism though. I was criticising an identifiable group who really aren’t doing themselves or the rest of us any favours.

    Clairwill, whatever the reasons, the BNP fails miserably up here. Which was certainly exercising me when I wrote my post.

  98. Sunny — on 28th January, 2007 at 5:24 pm  

    Everyone wants to be a fucking victim these days.

    Amen to that!

  99. Don — on 28th January, 2007 at 6:14 pm  

    ‘Everyone wants to be a fucking victim these days.’

    Yeah, can’t find the link, but apparently something like 73% of the population fall into some kind of victim/minority category.

  100. Sahil — on 28th January, 2007 at 6:16 pm  

    Anon+1 if you are truly just angry about the way the UK has dealt with globalisation that I urge you to look at some other countries performance. El Cid’s post makes some excellent points. The key problem in terms of inequality in the UK is due to excessive asset prices rises, most importantly house prices. This is what is hitting the youngest the hardest and coupled with stangnant real wages, this is becoming an hot political issue that politicans cannot continue to avoid.

    However, having recently come back from India, where optimism is through the roof the UK needs to have a ‘no pain, no gain’ mentality. The UK + other Western countries for the last 200+ years have been punching above their economic weight, that’s what imperial and mercantlism created. The economic order is just naturally realigining again, not even the US president has a say. And frankly the last time the world was so globalised, the end of the 19th century, most population of countries such as India, China, Russia, etc, did not have one say in the matter. The only way things can be reversed again is if world war 3 occurs, a scenario that I hope never ever happens.

  101. El Cid — on 28th January, 2007 at 8:41 pm  

    Ravi
    Sorry mate, I was just referring to the fact that a lot of anti-immigrant feeling has been directed towards white eastern europeans, IMHO

  102. Clairwil — on 28th January, 2007 at 8:58 pm  

    ‘Re my post 84, and yours of 86. Yeah, re Scotland, it is ridiculous, which was, sort of, the point. I was trying to point out, and failed miserably, that anyone can play the nationalist card. Ho hum.’

    Og God maybe there really is no alternative to use those winking things. Dear God!

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