>By all means comment — it is not as if I want a law against it. Freedom to comment, or should that be freedom to bitch.

Freedom to do both.

>After all, what business is it of mine or yours or anyones what people wear, unless, as I said, it is socially divisive or impinges on other people’s rights?

It is your or my business in so far as we are affected.

In the case of the current questions wrt Islam in the UK, one concern is that we seem to hear from the noisy fringe groups that do not represent anything like the majority.

I hear statements along the lines of “go away, these questions are nothing to do with you” and “it is the responsibility of the authorities to deal with the extremists”. Obviously that needs unpacking more (on another thread), but there is a contradiction there, and I will comment on things that affect me, and I see no problem with that.

The one thing that none of us can afford to have happen is for debate to be closed down or self-censored.

Thanks for replying.

See this is where it all started and what it is really about for you: uppity non-muslim needs to be shut up. I will not deign to post links for cretin like you. Nice little nazi jibe, btw. You are such a pleasant little fellow.

Don’t mouth off about others if you can’t accept criticism, BTW I’m still waiting for you links if you have any.

Oh actually, being the egotistical bastard (being born to a muzzy after all) that I am, I believe I’m quite sexy

Do some maids get abused by their employers? fuck yes! and know what, it is taken damn seriously by the police – those employers get jailed and banned from employing maids. My next door neighbour’s maid came to my aprtment crying for help a few years back, as the psycho had slapped her ONCE. I called the police, 3 squad cars arrived and the police stayed and interviewed all in the vicinity from 2 pm to 7 pm and insisted on making a case of it despite the maid having second thoughts about getting her employer in trouble. well that employer, a new mum, served a 3 week jail sentence for that single slap and I have a police commendation thanking me for my part in it.

There’s an awful lot wrong with Singapore but you havent the faintest notion and dont seem to particularly care what those issues might be. I am done because I can’t be arsed to waste any more time on you.

>It’s not for non-moslems to comment is it — unless, as in the case of the b & n, it is socialy divisive and impinges on other people’s rights.

Disagree on that point. It’s for anyone to comment on anything they wish to comment on – any other principle will (in my view) contribute to the creation of little Balkanised worlds within society.

Good for you, you’ve lived in a HDB, so have many of my friends all their lives. As for me living a short time, again i iterate i lived there for 7 years.

If you choose to turn a blind eye to the abuse of South Asian laboureres, go ahead, it occurs, just as beating filipino maids is common place.

BTW Mirax, explain to me how one would go about obtaining a permit for a protest against government policy, or even more generally?

Yes I remember Michael Fay, 1994 right, some of the other idiots who also got caught were in my school. As for rude noisy expats kids, I agree most are bratty twats. Hence I didn’t spend much time with them.

As for Singaporean society being changed, its still there, but the police and state will not allow people to act out. Furthermore NO discussion takes place. Plus can you hook me up to a link that refutes the suvery I had provided above? Until then I’ll stick to that.

DO explain to me the last time, a different government was in charge?

http://www.sfdonline.org/chee/tcentre.html

I believe you lived here for a short time. If you lived off Jln Mat Jambol and went to the ISS, well you lived a pretty typical elitist expat life, your coffee shop fraternising with the boys in blue notwithstanding. As an expat teen you were ‘arrested’ and spent an entire hour in the police station and maybe were ‘tortured’ with a bandung drink? Your parents/you had no access to the phone or a lawyer?
Call me sceptic on this one. Here’s why: I’ve lived in the HDB heartlands all my life with friends, relatives and acquaintances drawn from all walks of life including police and prison officers, juvenile delinquents (I know the inside of the family court pretty well) as well as ex-cons, drug addicts etc. Half my school friends, from NJC, are lawyers. Your story doesn’t ring as typical of police behaviour from what i ‘ve heard and experienced and i speak as someone who has been stopped by the police late at night and mouthily told them off with no adverse consequences.

Expat teens – anyone heard of Michael Fay? – quite often are noisier and have a look at me attitude when swaggering in a pack down Orchard Road. If all of these lot are frequently dragged off to the police station, it is a wonder that the parents have not raised hell thus far. Believe me, you don’t belong to a demographic that is treated badly at all, in fact the converse is true.

>> South Asian workers are regularly beaten by immigration police, to make sure that they are too fightened to ever leave their compounds.

Now I do know that you are lying. A casual visit to little india on sundays will show tens of thousands of south indian workers shopping and freely socialising. I know some of these workers quite well as they come from the same part of India as my parents and have had quite a few of them eating a meal in my home. Not one story of police or paid gangs beating them up. But you know what there is a law – told you we have some nasty ones remember- that allows for the caning of illegal workers followed by deportation but that is a far cry from what you are describing and so let me just tell you that those policemen spun a few scary stories for a gullible expat teen.

But you are not a teen now, are you Sahil? You really believe that the local govt goes through all academic research, banning the unflattering ones willy nilly? There’s whole host of foreign unis, all FAR more prestigious than Warwick U, with their asian campus in S’pore or offering joint degrees with local unis.

http://www.singaporeedu.gov.sg/htm/stu/stu0107.htm

You believe that every single of them has compromised their academic integrity?

>>As for there being not riots in Singapore. Of course not, any protestor would be arrested,

Undoubtedly, if they hadn’t a police permit. See, I don’t deny valid criticism. Problem is that you state something quite true and then run off with a wild extrapolation that’s very hard for someone actually intimately knows the society to accept.

>>maybe you should talk to Singaporeans who were around in the 60s when the police was not so strong and many gang fights, and riots were frequent due to ethnic tension.

Ah, the race riots of ’68 is what you pull up to validate your sweeping statements about singapore. No political context offered for the troubles back then, nothing about the massive effort put into ethnic relations, education over the last 40 years to preempt the re-occurrence of that tragedy, no acknowledgement that we may have changed very substantially as a society in the interim period. And you have the cheek to ask ME to talk to some older Singaporeans!

>> The reason why I was really wound up by your first post was your tone that the UK is turning into a Londistan and the Muzzies are taking over.

>>I resent the way you characterise Muzzies as a homogenous group, who are hell bent on taking over the world and for leisure beat their wives. I never ever denied that it occurs, more, than in other cultures, but certainly it is not the clash of civilisations that you make out in a variety of your posts.

You got all that – not a single word like that or similar to that has ever been typed by me on PP or elsewhere- from my ‘tone’? You’ve some serious comprehension and self-image problems, dear boy.

I do know that you are not muslim ; remember the ‘crime’ I accused you of was defensiveness (and maybe I’ll add hysteria to the list now), not being a muslim per se . I am not bigotted enough to inextricably link the two.

For the record, as much as I despise the IDEAS behind the hijab, niqab etc rather than the piece of cloth itself, I’d be solidly against banning any ADULT from wearing it; much like my overall opinion on religion -everyone has the (uniquely god-given) right to be stupid.

If you also knew anything about the police, you’d probably know this: I suggest that you visit any building site, where South Asian workers are regularly beaten by immigration police, to make sure that they are too fightened to ever leave their compounds. How do I know? The police uses local gangs e.g. Sada Kow, to implement many of the actions, the going rate is about 100 singapore $s an hour. Plus if you also don’t believe me about living in Singapore, I suggest you visit Hakeems hawker stand off Pasir Panjang Rd at 5 in the morning, where the police offices usually meet for breakfast and the change of shift. I usually headed there after a night out, and would end up talking to many of them about many of the stories NEVER discussed in the media. Some of the stories really are shocking, and blantantly racist and corrupt.

You say that I never provided you with any evidence, well that survey was one, if you have any sources to counter please link them. I certainly don’t think that one study done in 1998 is the whole story, but information is not exactly free. Indeed Warwick Uni was going to set base in Singapore, but decided to opt out, as the govt demanded any academic work to be screened if they did not toe the govt line. As for there being not riots in Singapore. Of course not, any protestor would be arrested, maybe you should talk to Singaporeans who were around in the 60s when the police was not so strong and many gang fights, and riots were frequent due to ethnic tension. The reason why I was really wound up by your first post was your tone that the UK is turning into a Londistan and the Muzzies are taking over. The UK media is focusing on this issue intently, indeed most of these stories have been made up, right now it is an obession. Hence the supposed conclusion that muslims are ruining society for everyone. Again if France is anything to go by, I prefer to go down the UK route. A simple point, in France there are no labour statistics concerning employment i.e. sex, age, race etc, by law. This society assumes it is automatically fair, yet surprisingly, areas of high immigrant communities have umemployment rates of 20-40%. Indeed refer to the Loreal case where one only need apply for the position if they are BBR!

As for my defensiveness. Let me state clearly so you can understand, I AM NOT A MUSLIM!! I do not follow any faith for a variety of reasons. My position is agnostic and it will in the foreseeable future remain that way. But I have many relatives who are muslim and my muslim father is so fanatical that he allowed me to figure religion out by myself, and never forced me to attend a prayer, if I didn’t want to, even during Eid. I resent the way you characterise Muzzies as a homogenous group, who are hell bent on taking over the world and for leisure beat their wives. I never ever denied that it occurs, more, than in other cultures, but certainly it is not the clash of civilisations that you make out in a variety of your posts.

As for your patronising posts that progressives do not understand the threat, well guess what I am a bleeding heart liberal and well aware of the radical strains of Islam, but I view this as a soft war, that if going to take decades to fix, from bottom-up, not top-down. This is usually the progressive line. Approaching the problem by muscle has led to Iraq, Iran being more belligerent, and a renewed Lezbullah.

For Mulims not to be demonised, just don’t demonise! You facile argments reminded me of what the Catholic church representative was saying about gay couple adoption: They should not be able to adopt, because other children would make fun of the adopted child, and thus reduce their welfare. Therefore adoption should not take place. Well maybe people just should stop being bigoted and take care of their own business, and take responsibility of how they treat other people.

I despise the Niqab, and I’d prefer to see all girls in bikinis, but it is also their right to wear what they want. The issue about the school is however different. It is a uniform and thus under the laws of the school where everyone is treated equally, however they law are subject to change, and thus let the judges examine the potential issues and come to a rational conclusion. i hope it does outlaw the niqab in school, but I certainly prefer this approach than the Singaporean line, of supposed confucian harmony.

As for Malaysia’s turn to fascism, I agree its a significant turn for the worse, I have Indian (hindu) friends living in KL who i met recently describing the situation. Its bad, and I hope it reverts quickly. Nonetheless I see this as a typical cycle in Malaysian politics, Indonesia is far more troubling as it is poorer and less stable. It has still not recovered from the 1997/1998 financial contagion crisis. I would also say to you: the fact that these regimes all over SE Asia are so top-down allows fascist policies to be implemented without any recourse! If you could take your government to trial, shitty policies such as these would have a very hard time getting through, that is what is interesting about this Niquab case. And that is why I prefer it heads to trial.

Anas I appreciate the point you make above . It is generally true of most situations in Singapore but the hijab ban was actually a pretty tricky one for the S’pore government due to regional sensitivities with Malysia (their islamist politicians were directly involved in the ‘challenges’ here) and Indonesia. It helps to take a look at the map and know some local history!

Singapore has a fearsome reputation amongst a certain gullible sort of westerner. If only i had a dollar for the number of westerners who’ve told me that you get thrown in jail for jaywalking or littering or chewing gum or not flushing the toilet! I still laugh when I think about a couple of old friends from Quebec who fearfully and scrupously made sure that no ‘contraband’ items were in their luggage when they moved here a few years back only to be gobsmacked by open sale of such items on the streets. We have some very nasty laws – unlike you I am not in denial mode- but not of the petty, make your life living hell sort.

If you want institutionally racist laws, you’d have done better citing our dear neighbour Malaysia. Truthfully, I don’t know of any other than, oh wait, a few that give prefential , special treatment to Malays who are overwhelmingly muslim! Go on check out our constitution or this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_Singaporean

>> So don’t patronise me with your crap, about how there is no tensions, as there is serious deiscussion at all! After all there is shopping to be done.

I’d leave it to you to dish out the patronising crap but I’ve never claimed that there is no tensiion at all but you made the serious charge of major clashes, so you’d better start delivering on it. A couple of blog discussions about SAP school grads is a laughable start.

>>You constantly bang on about the evil ‘muslim’ and you’t can even differentiate between the various opinions within Singapore itself.

See, it is just the same old insecure blokes on PP who who start with the “Mirax eats muslim babies for brunch” misrepresentation when they are lost for an argument. I never have used the word evil in relation to muslims but that’s really irrelevant when you want to foam at the mouth aint it?

>>As you beamoaning its demise, well surprisingly I actually share your opinion, if you actually read anyone’s posts here you’d see NO ONE agrees with Wahabbi fundamentalism!

I beleive that. I also believe that not every dispute is due solely to recently influential wahhabi nutjobs but deobandi strains found in north indian muslim traditions are not exactly blameless. But it is the extreme defensiveness of people like yourself on PP that is telling.

>>And yes there should be a precendent set, I was surprised that there was not one set. Nonetheless hopefully with close scrutiny and bottom-up consultation, maybe a resolution will be set.

The sooner this happens, the better it is for the majority of muslims and there’d really much less room for wholesale demonisation of muslims. Tis a pity that some of you don’t seem to want to look that far ahead.

Less to do with foreign policy versus race relations than foreign policy and the kind of ideology and hate mongering extremism independently inside modern Islam promoted by the kinds of dickwads featured in last weeks Despatches programme and that lots of people are in denial of with their heads in concrete. But that’s another argument altogether lets not go down that road.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6290867.stm

BTW, I think the suicide bombings had more to do with the UK’s foreign policy than internal issues around race relations, but that’s another argument altogether.

So a muslim woman dressed revealingly would be breaking a fairly basic rule, as would a christian who covetted his neighbour’s ass.

But the word ‘compulsory’ has implications, doesn’t it? It implies sanctions and someone to apply them. I suppose if all it means is being told you’re a bad follower and you aren’t welcome in the place of worship until you mend your ways, fair enough. Not much point in belonging to a religion if you don’t follow the rules, Islam in particular.

But is that all he means? How much compulsion is involved here (I mean beyond the compulsion applied by any parent of a teenage girl over what is reasonably acceptable)? It’s all very well you or I deciding how we feel about the hijab, the point is how do the wearers feel about it?

But back to the point. The copper. Who won’t shake hands with her boss, won’t have her photo taken with her colleagues and speaks darkly of propaganda. And that’s her first day. If it really is as simple as the newspapers make it sound, which is unlikely, then the Met are seriously messing up as they scramble after arbitrary targets upon which budgets depend. Like many of us.

But even if only the central point – the handshake refusal – is true, being a copper is a getting-your-hands-dirty job; physically, emotionally, morally. I don’t want to pay someone to police my streets who has esoteric dilemmas over physical contact. I’m not saying they should be enthusiasts for it, but it is a large part of what you sign up for.