Blacks angry over Asian rape claim in B’ham


by Sunny
19th October, 2005 at 3:52 pm    

Trouble is brewing in Birmingham it seems, with the black community angry over claims that an Asian shop owner and 18 other Asian men gang-raped a 14 year old African girl at the back of their shop in the Perry Barr area, Birmingham. Last night about 300 black people in the area staged a demonstration calling for justice.

Protestors are vowing to continue the demonstration today and stage a protest march on Saturday. Just about 10 minutes ago, I got an email from Ligali, which said this:

We must state that this story has not been confirmed as the family has yet to make a formal complaint. Nonetheless the national media seems to have deemed this story insignificant with coverage by the BBC and other major media institutions being almost non existent making it almost impossible to verify ‘officially’.

Regardless of this we are calling for everyone in the African British community to boycott Asian businesses in support of our Birmingham cousins until the Asian community breaks the ‘wall of silence’ it has erected hiding the truth or protecting the paedophiles involved in this alleged heinous crime.

[Link] I can see they are pissed off at such a heinous crime, but it has not been confirmed she was raped by Asian guys and there is no evidence to back up that the Asian community is “hiding or protecting” these bastards. In fact I’d be happy to see their balls on a plate.

A national boycott is surely taking it too far? Why should Asians everywhere be blamed for the activity of a gang of criminals? Ligali is generalising in a way it warns others against doing so with regards to the Afro-Caribbean community. If you hear anything more on this story, email us.


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  1. Opinionated Voice

    [...] (Telegraph; BBC: 23/10/05; BBC: 18/10/05) It occured in Toledo (USA) recently and now its occuring in Birmingham (UK). Segments of the black community living up to their negative stereotypes and violently destroying race relations and the areas in which they live. People have been stabbed, shot, killed, and arrested. Spurned on by Ligali who immediatly called for a boycott of Asian shops, the Black community rages in B’ham on the say so of a 14 year old girl, even though no evidence has yet been substantiated. A riot broke out after a public meeting in the area over an alleged sexual attack on a 14-year-old girl. The allegation is that the girl was gang raped by 18 Asian men, but is unable to approach Police as she is an illegal immigrant. It is possible that a terrible crime has occured, but without any shred of evidence it is nonsensical to act in this way. The debate rages over at Pickled Politics, join in if you please! [...]




  1. leon — on 19th October, 2005 at 4:59 pm  

    This aint good news…

  2. Rohin — on 19th October, 2005 at 5:03 pm  

    A black guy stabbed a friend of mine the other day in Tooting. He hasn’t been caught. Let’s boycott all black businesses.

    Does this request sound reasonable?

    It’s quite unbelievable. Ligali have basically said this (and I paraphrase):

    “This story may not be true. The family have not complained. Regardless of this, I think we should all boycott every single Asian business in the country. Because they’re covering stuff up.”

    Yeah…right. Mr Patel’s newsagent down the road from me, 250 miles from Birmingham, is covering up the rapists. And even if they do boycott all Asian businesses, are the rapists suddenly going to come forward and confess? If they’re happy raping a minor, I doubt some random Asian businesses suffering will jog their conscience.

    I’ll assume that there’s no smoke without fire and that this crime did take place. It’s one of the most horrific crimes there is, so I can only assume that the very emotive nature of such an evil act has caused this bizarre ‘Ligali Comment’.

  3. leon — on 19th October, 2005 at 5:13 pm  

    Hmmm the IC Brum article says a thousand people demostrated not 300.

  4. leon — on 19th October, 2005 at 5:14 pm  

    Oops misread, my bad!

  5. leon — on 19th October, 2005 at 5:30 pm  

    Rohin, I agree but I think reactions need to be a bit more constructive. This situation could get very messy and all those prejudices we both know exist in both communities against each other serve the likes of BNP.

    Basically I think the saner voices in both communities need to call for calm not reaction and division. We must let the criminal justice system run its course not mob rule, angry reaction or divisive political groups.

  6. Geezer — on 19th October, 2005 at 5:39 pm  

    I find it ironic that Ligali is calling for a “national boycott”. They tar and even slander hard working honest people with their “wall of silence” phrase which implies that somehow they are all responsible.

    Surely this is the same stereotyping that they themselves complain of at their website.

    This crime if true is a wicked one and those caught should be thrown in prison for a long time. But I wonder if Ligali is so willing to pursue the same hard line stance against young blacks who commit crimes against Asian shop keepers? Would they also have supported the Asian community had we made similar statements holding all young blacks responsible for crimes such as this which targeted an Asian girl?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2002/01/03/nmug03.xml

    Rather than drawing lines in the sand they should be working hand in hand with the Asian businesses to establish the facts and if the crime took place bring those people to justice. Approaches like the one above only stroke up more tensions, which is a crying shame especially when there is common ground i.e. both being ethnic minorities.

  7. Geezer — on 19th October, 2005 at 5:47 pm  

    Just to add you will find some Asian groups who also do not face up to problematic issues that plague their community. It’s this “caring for your own” syndrome that can lead to complications. Although a noble concept it becomes a problem when people refuse to tackle issues head on for fear that it may “taint” their community so ignore them. Or you have the extreme version which is “caring for ONLY your own”.

  8. T Nathan — on 19th October, 2005 at 5:50 pm  

    this is a spoof, right ?

    ahh, the blacks. “wall of silence” – I though that was a parody for black on black crimes. pass it on.

  9. T Nathan — on 19th October, 2005 at 6:07 pm  

    more comedy from legali :

    “The store is said to be notorious for following African British customers around when they are looking for products and even locking in customers when they feel their are too many in the store at any one time. ” – LOL

    “teenager . . unofficial immigrant from Jamaica ” . Excuses Excuses !
    Unofficial Immigrant – Is that the PC way of saying ILLEGAL ? . I suggest you break the wall of silence and, hand her and other unofficials to the home office, or everyone boycotts black businesses – Erm yes when i find them !

    And Sunny , you appear to not have read her article fully ! , as Legali goes on:

    “However there are now suggestions that the store where the incident took place is part of a two store chain called ‘Beauty Queen’ which may both be owned and administrated by – Eastern Europeans. ”

    Ahh bless , no facts should stand in the way of putting a march to publicise self inflicted suffering mentality . You go girl. respect. wordup. legali. innit

    All this fuss over nothing. If only she was white, sunny could’ve gone to the bnp again. bless him too.

  10. The Ligali Organisation — on 19th October, 2005 at 6:14 pm  

    1. “Ligali is generalising in a way it warns others against doing so with regards to the Afro-Caribbean community.”

    Ligali is an organ of the African British community, for the people by the people. Our comments reflect the collective will of our community and did not generalise about Asians in any way.

    2. “there is no evidence to back up that the Asian community is “hiding or protecting” these bastards”.

    Yes there is. We have had several reports from Ligali members who live in Birmingham and they are getting zero response from Asians in the area as to what they understand has happened and who did it. In short they are maintaining a wall of silence.

    3. “A national boycott is surely taking it too far? Why should Asians everywhere be blamed for the activity of a gang of criminals?”

    Because the first response we have had from the Asian community is not one empathising with our pain and seeking to help find the alleged perpetrators in their midst using their media networks, but instead we are subjected to a knee jerk response about angry ‘blacks’. Imagine if this were an Asian child and just three angry ‘blacks’. What would you do?

    4. “And even if they do boycott all Asian businesses, are the rapists suddenly going to come forward and confess?”

    Ligali has advocated SUPPORTING the boycott initiated by our cousins in Birmingham. The intent is to encourage Asian businesses not to harbour these alleged paedophiles. I should also point out that we are a London based organisation so we rely on the wealth of information that has been sent to us recently outlining a historic pattern of mistreatment and commercial exploitation of African customers by Asian shop keepers in that area and also incidentally in London. Perhaps this is a discussion for another day.

    5. “Blacks angry over Asian rape claim in B’ham”

    We are Africans. The title of this thread starts with the offensive racial epithet ‘Blacks’. Ligali did not and would never refer to Asian people as Browns, Paks, Pakis or any other offensive term which stereotypes the entire Asian community as a monolithic group characterised by the behaviour of a single element within your diverse community.
    6. “A black guy stabbed a friend of mine the other day in Tooting. He hasn’t been caught. Let’s boycott all black businesses.”
    That’s right. Being flippant like European racists will reassure us that you actually care. One point. If you are about to paraphrase what Ligali has said then we suggest you ensure that you understand what you have read first.
    7. “I can only assume that the very emotive nature of such an evil act has caused this bizarre ‘Ligali Comment”.
    Exactly. The proposals that were (and still are) being bandied around before the boycott are far more radical. You can either have us support an economic reprisal or we can sit back and watch a far more physical approach unfold.. and apparently that is still not off the agenda.
    8. “But I wonder if Ligali is so willing to pursue the same hard line stance against young blacks who commit crimes against Asian shop keepers? Would they also have supported the Asian community had we made similar statements holding all young blacks responsible for crimes such as this which targeted an Asian girl?”
    Do you really believe we sanction the actions of young Africans involved in crime?
    Do you really believe a national boycott to encourage you to find the perpetrators is the same as us claiming to hold all Asians responsible for this alleged assual?
    Lets get one thing clear. We are an African British organisation working for the empowerment of African people. We will always take a hardline against anyone who works against our objectives including those Asians who seem to relish labelling us ‘blacks’ like other groups with anti-African ideology.
    9. “they should be working hand in hand with the Asian businesses to establish the facts and if the crime took place bring those people to justice.”
    We agree and that is our exact strategy.
    10. “ahh, the blacks. “wall of silence” – I though that was a parody for black on black crimes. pass it on.”
    Et tu, Brutus. At least we now know.

  11. pecan — on 19th October, 2005 at 6:39 pm  

    a boycott is taking things too far. i just hope the victim will find the strentgh to come forward.
    as hard as it will be for her vital physical evidence will be lost and that is crucial to help nail these evil people.
    its a tragic situation. it needs to be reported.

  12. Sunny — on 19th October, 2005 at 6:50 pm  

    Ligali – if you see the term ‘black’ as offensive, then I’m assuming you also have boycotts in place for organisations such as Black Information Link (Blink), Radio 1xtra (black music), BFM magazine (Black film makers) and many others? Let’s have some consistency at least.
    Comparing it to using the word ‘Paki’ is not strictly relevant as the latter is a derogatory term used by racists. If the same were true of the term ‘black’, I would stop using it too.

    you also say:
    1) did not generalise about Asians
    And blaming all Asians and saying their culture of “wall of silence” is hiding these people is not generalising?

    2) What are Asians who know nothing about this crime supposed to say? I’m not denying a crime may have taken place, but what evidence do you have that that an entire community in the area is conspiring to shield these criminals?

    3) Imagine if this were an Asian child and just three angry ‘blacks’. What would you do?
    I would harass the police to do their job rather than seeking to blame the entire black community for something perpetrated by a gang of criminals.

    4) The intent is to encourage Asian businesses not to harbour these alleged paedophiles.
    And you have specific evidence that Asian businesses are hiding these criminals? Why not go to the police with it? I’d support you.

    recently outlining a historic pattern of mistreatment and commercial exploitation of African customers by Asian shop keepers in that area
    granted there may be racist Asian shopkeepers who discriminate against black customers. Is your solution then to drive a further rift by asking the entire black community have a boycott? That is extremely silly.

    7) and watch a far more physical approach unfold
    What does that mean? Some brothers are going to go there and cause trouble unless these “racist Asians” own up to their faults? Yeah I can see that will build bridges and ensure such issues don’t result in the future.

    8) Do you really believe we sanction the actions of young Africans involved in crime?
    Yet you believe we sanction these crimes?

    9) We agree and that is our exact strategy.
    Doesn’t look like it.

  13. Rohin — on 19th October, 2005 at 6:57 pm  

    “recently outlining a historic pattern of mistreatment and commercial exploitation of African customers by Asian shop keepers”

    “Perhaps this is a discussion for another day.”

    Ah. This makes things a bit clearer. It becomes apparent there is distinct tension bubbling under between a particular African community and a particular Asian business community. So as soon as Asians are alleged to have committed a crime – immediately come proposals that Asian businesses should be boycotted.

    I don’t know the situation in this area. I’m perfectly willing to believe that Asian businesses may be antagonising the Africans. Or they may not. But can you not see how this laughable reflex is incredibly incomprehensible? It seems it’s more of a culmination of bad vibes between two groups boiling over after a vile alleged crime.

    A terrible offence MAY have been committed. If it has – the perpetrators must be brought to justice. But ludicrous reactions like this achieve nothing. And as a matter of fact, ludicrous measures like this won’t even materialise, because I’m sure that most members of the entire black community will realise it’s pointless.

    “You can either have us support an economic reprisal or we can sit back and watch a far more physical approach unfold”

    I’d rather you avoided the veiled threats and didn’t support any ‘reprisal’, but supported the police instead. You accuse my statement of being flippant, but what is the difference? Are you advocating ‘reprisals’ after every crime committed by one race upon another?

  14. T Nathan — on 19th October, 2005 at 6:59 pm  

    pickled politics indeed .

    ” Break the silence” on “unofficial” immigrants , now !

    Raped by 18 men ? 18? I feel sorry for the 18th. Sick.

    I do hope this gets blown up into mainstream. Dirty filthy pickled politics . Immigrants – are you thinking what we’re thinking ?

    “Et tu, Brute?” – would only apply if i was one of your possey. I’m neither black nor brown, an observer amusing myself on ethnic politics.

    P . S. Is Legali some african slang for legally ?

  15. Sunny — on 19th October, 2005 at 7:10 pm  

    Raped by 18 men ? 18? I feel sorry for the 18th. Sick.
    This isn’t a funny affair T. Nathan, so I would prefer if you kept your brand of humour to yourself.

  16. Geezer — on 19th October, 2005 at 8:02 pm  

    Ligali is an organ of the African British community, for the people by the people. Our comments reflect the collective will of our community and did not generalise about Asians in any way [Ligali]

    Your article calls for a national boycott of Asian shops and implies that the greater Asian community is part of an elaborate plot to “shelter” the men without a shred of evidence. This is generalising and you are gravely mistaken to think that you are not.

    Yes there is. We have had several reports from Ligali members who live in Birmingham and they are getting zero response from Asians in the area as to what they understand has happened and who did it. In short they are maintaining a wall of silence
    .[Ligali]

    So this is credible evidence is it? A few members of your organisation who live in Birmingham who might I add bought traffic to a stand still, intimidated people minding their own business if they were Asian [eye witness reports] and inflicted loss of earnings on business who were afraid of the large crowd gathering outside. Sorry there testimonies mean little especially in light how the whole affair has been conducted.

    Because the first response we have had from the Asian community is not one empathising with our pain and seeking to help find the alleged perpetrators in their midst using their media networks, but instead we are subjected to a knee jerk response about angry ‘blacks’. Imagine if this were an Asian child and just three angry ‘blacks’. What would you do?[Ligali]

    Who have you spoken to from the Asian community about this? Could you start naming community leaders etc please? “Knee Jerk response” is the perfect description of your boycott. You also talk of “had it been three blacks what would you of done”? Did you fail to see my above post with the various crimes committed by young blacks on Asians? I did not see no calls for a boycott of black businesses or even as much as peep from the Asian community.

    Ligali has advocated SUPPORTING the boycott initiated by our cousins in Birmingham. The intent is to encourage Asian businesses not to harbour these alleged paedophiles. I should also point out that we are a London based organisation so we rely on the wealth of information that has been sent to us recently outlining a historic pattern of mistreatment and commercial exploitation of African customers by Asian shop keepers in that area and also incidentally in London. Perhaps this is a discussion for another day[ligali]

    Yes you already mentioned the boycott but it is ludicrous to suggest that Asian “businesses” are harbouring these men. If this attack took place it was done away form the eyes of others and these men would I’m sure not be like to be known to have committed such an act for fear of getting caught. No one apart from the men involved would know anything as I understand the shop was shut up for the duration of the attack
    The rest of your post is laughable to say the least. Maybe your “wealth” of information failed to take into account the rising amount of attacks on Asian shop keepers by black youths. Mistreatment and commercial exploitation seriously where are you getting this from?

    That’s right. Being flippant like European racists will reassure us that you actually care. One point. If you are about to paraphrase what Ligali has said then we suggest you ensure that you understand what you have read first.[Ligali]

    That’s right pull out the racism card when people make a point.

    Exactly. The proposals that were (and still are) being bandied around before the boycott are far more radical. You can either have us support an economic reprisal or we can sit back and watch a far more physical approach unfold.. And apparently that is still not off the agenda.[Ligali]

    Here is what I was looking for why don’t you just be honest about things that you want to physically attack people? Firstly your boycott will not do squat and secondly no one is scared of your agenda for physical violence. Why you even bothered posting the long rant I do not know when it is quite clear your out for blood and look only to inflame the situation. If this view is representative of your organisation then no will take you seriously and from the looks of things no one is and ever will.

    Do you really believe we sanction the actions of young Africans involved in crime?
    Do you really believe a national boycott to encourage you to find the perpetrators is the same as us claiming to hold all Asians responsible for this alleged assual?
    [Ligali]

    Do we you think we sanction the criminal acts of some Asians? A national boycott is strigmitising like I have said before.

    We agree and that is our exact strategy.[Liagli]

    I shall respond to that with your own words.

    “You can either have us support an economic reprisal or we can sit back and watch a far more physical approach unfold.. and apparently that is still not off the agenda”

  17. Don — on 19th October, 2005 at 8:28 pm  

    We seem to be very short on confirmed facts here. Has anyone from Ligali spoken directly to the child, her family or a reliable witness?

    If it happened as described – or remotely like it – the bastards involved should never see the light of day again. But evidence first, surely.

    By the way, Sunny, have you a policy on how to deal with openly racist trolls like T Nathan?

  18. Jai Singh — on 19th October, 2005 at 9:20 pm  

    Here is some “Breaking News” for our friend from Legali:

    1. There is no such thing as a single, united, “Asian community” — not in the way you think. It’s not like some Mafia family where “we’re all part of one family, code of silence etc”.

    2. The British Asian population as you appear to interpret it is not a single homogenous group; exactly which part of the “Asian community” are you talking about ? This is by no means an attempt on my part to deflect/focus blame onto any particular religious or nationalistic group, but attempting to retaliate against the Asian population en masse as though it were a single group would be like attempting a boycott against “the white community” in London regardless of which part of Europe or North America the London-based perpetrator of a particular criminal act happened to originate from.

    3. Don’t fall into the trap of “collective responsibility/group guilt”. Only the perpetrators of an undeniably horrific act — and those others present at the time and/or who know exactly who did it — are guilty of this crime. The rest of us are not and there is absolutely no justification for attempting to make the rest of the British Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/Sri Lankan population pay the price. “Collective guilt” is Osama Bin Laden-type logic and a totally unacceptable way to think.

    Your basic cause is righteous and I wish you all the best, but your methods and targets are misguided.

  19. leon — on 19th October, 2005 at 9:42 pm  

    “We seem to be very short on confirmed facts here.”

    Indeed, has anyone even verified whether this is a legit representative from Legali?

  20. The Ligali Organisation — on 19th October, 2005 at 10:14 pm  

    @Sunny,
    First this cheap shot about offensive terminology;
    You call yourself Asians or British Asians. We refer to you as Asians or British Asians. We call ourselves Africans, you have the option of African British or African Caribbean. You label us ‘blacks’. Please don’t pretend that you are unaware that many African people find the label ‘black’ offensive. Blink is run by 1990 Trust an organisation we requested not to refer to us as ‘blacks’ but they refused. The director is an Asian woman named Karen Chouhan. 1Xtra was labeled by the BBC who you know faced a wealth of criticism from our community on this issue. You ask for consistency. Check the Ligali website. I’m telling you it is offensive to label African people as ‘blacks’ if you want to be respectful then simply stop it.

    Incidentally isn’t the term Paki now in vogue with your community. To quote AiM dont ‘some young British Pakistanis actually want the word…. They are openly reclaiming it for themselves as part of street slang, just as some young [African] Americans greet one another with the n word in music videos.”

    http://www.asiansinmedia.org/news/article.php/television/842

    Where did we ‘blame’ all Asians? Where did we mention the wall of silence as a part of Asian ‘culture’? Show me where we used these words.

    You ask what are Asians who know nothing about this crime are supposed to say? Could those with contacts not be asking around in their community to see if they can find out who does know? They could be receptive to our pain instead of taking pot shots and refusing to talk to us. You ask what evidence do we have to say an entire community is conspiring to shield these criminals? The fact that the entire community appears to be remaining silent on the whole issue. We’ve had almost thirty responses from the Birmingham area over the last twenty four hours and all say the same thing. Of course this does not represent the entire Birmingham Asian community but it provides a statistical snapshot we can base our preliminary assessments on. Where is the shop keeper? We have received further evidence that his brother may have been involved? Where is he? How could no one know? How could the Pickled Politics site not express a single expression of grief, angry or empathy with the African British community? Is you economy more important than the rape of a fourteen year old child?
    You say you would “harass the police to do their job”. Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that we do not have a relationship based on trust with the Police in this country.

    You say “I’d support you”. Well don’t support me, support us. Use your media contacts to launch an appeal for information. If the wider media is suppressing this story then why don’t you actually do something and launch an appeal for information instead of moaning about how you think Ligali is generalising about your community. We don’t remember any complaints or thanks when we attacked the British media for stereotyping and demonising Asian Muslims. In fact all we got was the usual barrage of assaults from right wing idiots.

    You say it’s extremely silly for us to support calls for a national boycott. I say its extremely silly for you to recognise that there are ‘racist Asian shopkeepers who discriminate against’ African customers and not speak up about it until now. Wasn’t it the silence of Asians like you who said nothing when they knew wrong was occurring that actually allowed this rift to get larger in the first place.

    You make the comment “Some brothers are going to go there and cause trouble unless these “racist Asians” own up to their faults?”

    When will you all get it into your heads that Ligali simply reflects the will of the people. If a group of African people decide to mash down on “racist Asians” as Sunny states then so be it. What is the problem if they are as you say “racist”?

    @Pecan
    Thank you. We agree with your comments. We’ve been told there is a huge effort being made to get the young girl to come forward. The longer it takes the harder it becomes to source physical evidence. But she is a minor and it is also possible that she and her family may never feel comfortable dealing with the British Police. Its frustrating dealing with such a scarcity of ‘official’ facts but all our primary sources are authentic. As with all paedophile/ child rape allegations we have to give the victim both support and benefit of the doubt. This case whether we find out it was two men eighteen times or some other permutation is nonetheless repellent and of course very very emotive.

    @T Nathan
    My mistake. No Ligali is an African word that means even if we have a little tiff with the Asian community, we will still co-operate when it comes down to dealing with jokers like you.

    @ Geezer
    First we don’t need to use a so called “racism card” to deal with idiots.

    Second your comment “why don’t you just be honest about things that you want to physically attack people? Firstly your boycott will not do squat and secondly no one is scared of your agenda for physical violence.” is fantastic.

    Were gonna quote you for our insignificant tiny organisation?

    @Don
    We haven’t spoken to the girl or family, but we have to a friend of a family member. The confirmed facts we have come from several independent sources but nonetheless they are scarce and we are of course aware of the possibility of Chinese whispers so if we are wrong we will apologise. But as we said earlier because there is absolutely no mainstream media support for this story we are forced and prepared to risk egg on our face to support our community. The mood across the country is explosive I mean could you imagine how you would feel if it was your daughter who was gang raped and all day you turn on the news and only hear about Saddam’s trial and the wotless Tory contest.

    @ Jai Singh
    Thank you for your comments.

  21. Sunny — on 19th October, 2005 at 10:51 pm  

    Please don’t pretend that you are unaware that many African people find the label ‘black’ offensive.

    Ligali – I referred you to several organisations that themselves use the word black, yet you only mentioned the BBC and Blink. Karen Chouhan has now left Blink, maybe they will change it now?

    The point remains, it is about whether the terminology is used by racists in a derogatory way.
    Yes we use the word ‘brown’ frequently. See:
    http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002386.html

    I don’t have to use it, I’m just saying that I neither use it in an offensive way, neither is that my intention, nor have you offered any substance backing up that many Africans find the term offensive.

    Seeing as the biggest ‘black’ website in this country is “blackbritain”, and the word is used regularly in New Nation and The Voice, I fail to see how it boycotted by all.

    Anyway, that is a side discussion.

    Where did we ‘blame’ all Asians? Where did we mention the wall of silence as a part of Asian ‘culture’? Show me where we used these words.

    On your website it says:
    “Ligali believes the Asian community must dismantle their ‘wall of silence’ and give up the Asian paedophiles within their community who participated in this sick crime.”
    http://www.ligali.org/article.php?id=338

    I believe that answers your question about generalisation.

    Could those with contacts not be asking around in their community to see if they can find out who does know? They could be receptive to our pain instead of taking pot shots and refusing to talk to us.

    I don’t think any Asian would not be receptive to pain when rape is involved. It is a heinous crime regardless of who is involved.

    but you are making this into a community vs community issue by holding all Asians responsible for something they did not commit. Should Asians really be running around calling up contacts every time a crime is committed? Isn’t that the job of the police?

    I have already said in my initial post that this is a terrible crime and I’d like to see the criminals brought to justice, ieally with their balls on a plate.

    Everytime a black person commits a crime, is the entire black community to blame? Should the entire community be held to account for not calling up their contacts and giving up who is doing this? You are the one who is seeing this as a racial issue than a criminal iissue unnecessarily.

    A bigot is a bigot is a bigot. I would have no sympathy for them if the crime was against a black, Asian or white person. Neither would I want to turn it into a community issue regardless of who was involved.

    Going down the route of racialising every crime is a dangerous game to play, one that will only bite you back when your “own side” is involved.

    Incidentally though, I have called up my media contacts to dig up more on this issue but I wouldn’t be surprised if the local media is doing that already. Why not wait for more facts to come out before turning it into a community vs community issue?

    The fact that the entire community appears to be remaining silent on the whole issue

    I’ve only heard about this today! Word has clearly spread through the African community faster but you seem to have this impression that we Asians discuss everything and are so tightly networked that we know everything that is going on.

    Is you economy more important than the rape of a fourteen year old child?
    I don’t care about the Asian economy, the girl is far more important. Maybe you should have read my initial post on this issue more clearly.

    I say its extremely silly for you to recognise that there are ‘racist Asian shopkeepers who discriminate against’ African customers and not speak up about it until now.

    There is racism in every society my brother, so please don’t tell me we haven’t spoken about it until yet. Every Asian will tell you that our community is also plagued with racism. What I supposed to do? Go around on a vigilante mission? Should I be holding you responsible for racism by the African community? How idiotic is that?

    You want Asians to admit more about racism? Here we go:
    http://www.barficulture.com/community/current/topic.php/1434/index.html

    Does that make you feel better? I find it totally idiotic that such a heinous crime is being made into a racial war. I don’t see what that will achieve, specially as you are not even fully aware of the facts.

    Your own website admits the shop might be owned and adminstered by Eastern Europeans, but below that you’re still blaming the Asian community.

  22. Sunny — on 19th October, 2005 at 10:57 pm  

    T. Nathan – I already said that racist comments will be deleted. So your post went kaput. If you can’t have a semblance of civility when discussing, kindly don’t bother. If you want to discuss, get rid of that racist undertone.

    Iceman – Exactly what purchasing power does the black community have? Id say its pretty minimal at best.

    Fool – what eactly does that have to do with anything? Doesn’t make this crime any more right does it?

    crys for wolf’ seriously even though she hasn’t come forward to the police?
    You may not be sure what country you live in, but in the UK every person is entitled to live without bein assaulted. The girl’s legal status has nothing to do with the crime or the issue we have raised.

  23. T Nathan — on 19th October, 2005 at 11:24 pm  

    Sunny’s suppressing my freedom of expression. Sheesh !

    Legali is the equivalent of the bnp, attempting to ignite and inflict communal suffering mentality for any cause to do with their “own kind” .

    In this “multicultural” society, there are organisations allowing people with a communal victimhood mentality to jump onto bandwagon with any cause that might seem mildly relevant. For some reason when organisations carry out such duties under the banner of “white victimhood” – it’s called racism. Being Black doesn’t give moral superiority.

    As for your “reprisal” ideas, im afraid we’re not in some african land where the villagers get together to stone the Alleged perpetrator without any evidence. We my dear have something called “Her Majesties Crown prosecution Service”. I suggest you go and take some citizenship classes – rule 554.no lynching.

    Your whole psyche is unhealthy, that spreads like a virus, uncontrollably mutating , leading to “ Is it cos I is —- ?” mentality, suffocating generations in its path.

    “Hundreds of central African children living in the UK may have suffered CHILD ABUSE or even been killed after being accused of WITCHCRAFT” – Why didn’t you march then my love ?

  24. Sunny — on 19th October, 2005 at 11:28 pm  

    “Hundreds of central African children living in the UK may have suffered CHILD ABUSE or even been killed after being accused of WITCHCRAFT” – Why didn’t you march then my love ?

    Because it’s people like yourself who want to believe that bullshit T Nathan – so it allows you to feel superior. That story was a pile of wank, to put it nicely, and even the papers admitted it, though privately. That is why there was no need to march.

    See: http://www.blink.org.uk/pdescription.asp?key=9225&grp=1

  25. leon — on 19th October, 2005 at 11:35 pm  

    ” Karen Chouhan has now left Blink, maybe they will change it now?”

    Blink uses black in the same political sense that Operation Black Vote does meaning Black and Minority Ethnic.

  26. Geezer — on 20th October, 2005 at 12:29 am  

    Second your comment “why don’t you just be honest about things that you want to physically attack people? Firstly your boycott will not do squat and secondly no one is scared of your agenda for physical violence.” is fantastic.

    Were gonna quote you for our insignificant tiny organisation?[Ligali]

    Good to see you playing with your words again…

    You talk of quotes here is the infamous one from you

    “You can either have us support an economic reprisal or we can sit back and watch a far more physical approach unfold.. and apparently that is still not off the agenda”

    What was that again about working together when you first came on?

  27. T Nathan — on 20th October, 2005 at 12:34 am  

    - torso on thames . . whatever .

    iceman makes valid points. I would like to think of iceman and me as the “progressives”. valid points can never be dismantled, just poked at by critiquing the lines with any vague racist undertone with a racist label. i maybe many things but nto a racist.

    Can anyone think of any situation where an african march should have been had ?

  28. Sunny — on 20th October, 2005 at 1:00 am  

    You can think of yourselves as the “progressives” if you like, makes no difference to me. However I pefer the term “uninformed” as its a better description.

    I see you quietly dropped your diatribe about “witchcraft”. How convenient.

  29. T Nathan — on 20th October, 2005 at 1:30 am  

    iceman-Well said. Do you agree asians have been successful but held down by cultural baggage (religion) ? Have you joined the conservative party yet ?

    p.s don’t bother with legali , you’ll only be met with a “wall of silence” .

  30. jamal — on 20th October, 2005 at 1:30 am  

    Story sounds a bit dodgy. Nevertheless, both groups have their fair share of crime and victim statistics. I dont see where these comparisons are getting us!

  31. Tired of Pretending — on 20th October, 2005 at 10:06 am  

    Wow, Asian racism rears its ugly head. Why is everyone here pretending to be outraged? The Asian community has a deep and ingrained hatred of African people, it always has and always will… The very obvious disdain is to clear to see when you check out some of the other Asian sites which suggest that the young girl asked to be raped and probably led on the perpetrators of this alleged crime.

    I would advocate boycotting Asian shops but not for this reason alone. I would boycott them because Asian people have long taken advantage of the economic power we give them, whilst laughing at us behind our backs. African businesses are one of the fastest growing areas in this country and it makes sense, that we as fellow Africans support our own and leave the Asians to themselves.

    I remember the endless African faces I saw at demonstrations against the Iraq War, the injustice of Palestine and even to my dismay, some African businesses donating money to those that suffered in the tsunami. Why? Why should we do this? Have we ever been supported in a similar way by Asian communities? Ans: NO! They are a sly and shrewd people, even they will admit that. Their only association with us to one of taking advantage. Not too long ago, there was a case of an Indian business man who would knowingly sell out of date meat to the African people that frequented his shop. We know that this is not an isolated incident.

    I say, its time to state publically what we (Africans and Asians) have known for centuries. We ain’t friends, never have been and despite the work of a minority of decent minded Asians, we NEVER will be.

    We don’t need one-off boycotts. We need a collective movement away from Asian businesses and cutlure. Seeing as our economic power is so ‘minimal’ as someone mentioned earlier, they shouldn’t be bothered if we take our business elsewhere.

  32. pecan — on 20th October, 2005 at 10:28 am  

    its a two way street the racism thing is. as for the “deep and ingrained hatred of african people”, i will say that there are racist asians,just as there are racist people in every other culture, race etc. i for one believe that the community in Perry Barr has always been well integrated with respect from all sides and now thanks to the deviant behaviour of ‘rapists’ the whole area is going to blow up.
    As for the sale of out of date meat to African people, i will say that that is a disgusting thing for shop owners to do but it is a small minority of money hungry morons who do such horrible acts.
    i think its an awful state of affairs.

  33. pecan — on 20th October, 2005 at 10:54 am  

    and furthermore, when i was mugged by a youth who just happened to be of African, or Jamaican descent, (please accept my apology if i’ve not written that right, im only young), i certainly did not think to hold it against the African and Jamaican community. As far as i am concerned, that act was commited by one person, irrespective of race. That person alone should be held responsible.
    If i was to single handedly snub the african and jamaican community because of what happened to me i would end up losing a very large number of my friends who are of African and Jamaican origin… its not their fault what happened when i was attacked and in the same way every asian can’t be blamed for this senseless rape attack, which is the vibe i am getting from some people. Africans and asians can be friends, i’m the proof of that. once again i hope i haven’t offended anybody, that was not my intention.

  34. ContraryMary — on 20th October, 2005 at 11:04 am  

    Tired Of Pretending: I am Asian and have African friends. I even, shock horror, have friends who are married couples that are Asian and African respectively.

    In the 1970s/1980s the black, asian and even irish immigrant communities worked together, and were united against the NF and their treatment as second class citizens. so to say ‘we ain’t friends and never have been is provocative and not true.

    Personally I feel, in this case what is being ignored is why this has been couched in terms of race lines, Asians versus Blacks. this is about a heinous crime, first and foremost, not ethnicity. Yet the battle lines have been drawn around race.

    Legali/Pickled Politics should be on the same side, and that is uniting against Europe, America and Britain’s historic discrimination against of people of colour. And countering the poisonous, divisive bile of the Daily Mail, the Sun, BNP, MigrationWatch and our dear friends IceMan and T Nathan.

    Divide and rule – it’s the oldest trick in the book, and we still haven’t worked out how to spot it, or overcome it.

  35. pecan — on 20th October, 2005 at 11:09 am  

    ContraryMary, i totally agree with what you are saying. attention is being diverted from the crime in question to the question of race.

  36. sms — on 20th October, 2005 at 11:20 am  

    A national boycott is far far overdue. Violence is not the answer. Retaliation is not the answer. What we must do is boycott Asian owned business who are trading in our hair products not for altruistic reasons but to feed off of people who (yes I’m generalising) they do not like. Im a hard working black woman and I am sick and tired of being followed around their shops like Im a criminal. In Dalston they (several men) stand on chairs around the shops like overseers. This has got to stop. If it means spending another £1 to go to a black owned business like Nubian Jacks or there are pleanty others then lets do that. Everybody supports their own. We need to start doing the same.
    Wake up.

  37. Jai Singh — on 20th October, 2005 at 11:39 am  

    Sunny,

    It’s interesting — and dismaying — how polite requests to Legali not to use highly-generalised statements regarding the “Asian” community (not actually a tightly-networked, homogenous, united group, as you and I have both stated) have subsequently been ignored. You must have noticed this too in the subsequent messages.

    =>”or we can sit back and watch a far more physical approach unfold.. and apparently that is still not off the agenda”

    That’s a clear and blatant threat of physical violence against members of the Asian ethnic population. I suggest you immediately report this to the police — you have written evidence of this right here on Pickled Politics.

  38. spawnofsatan — on 20th October, 2005 at 12:48 pm  

    Taken from the forum on legali “Typical Eurotrash b*tches with their warped fantasies on African men. Nothing changes. They so badly want African men to desire them I wouldn’t be surprised if these pieces of sh*t believed for a split second that these assaults actually took place against them.

    I’m telling you, avoid these wretches like the plague, cos they’ll be quick to cry wolf and have you hanging from a tree when they manifest their true colours”

    Who are the racists?

  39. Tired of Pretending — on 20th October, 2005 at 1:27 pm  

    ContraryMary and Pecan… Oh Purlease! Come back down to reality.

    Divide and rule?

    When we were ever united? Oh, you mean when you guys were trying to get funding off the back of things like Black History Month or any other ‘black’ events? Or maybe you’re talking about the money that too many of our people give to you for you to give us shoody customer service and call us racist names in your languages in return. Or maybe your referring to the inherently racist colour caste systems that exists in many Asian cultures where ‘darker’ skin shades are seen as ugly.

    Even some of my good Asian friends in the past have told me that while their parents might not accept them having a European partner, they would utterly disown them if they dared to bring home an African. Nevertheless, I have been perved on numerous times by Asian men who no doubt are happy to have sex with African women but wouldn’t dare marry them…

    What you don’t seem to realise is that African people are very much aware that given the opportunity, Asian people would be happy to exploit us to the same levels and in the same way that European racists have done for years. In fact, in African countries and in some islands in the Caribbean, Asian people find themselves there to capitalise financially on the people there. I understand that the disharmony between Asian communities and African communities is growing as people grow tired of the utter contempt and disrespect displayed by the former.

    I ask again, when have the Asian community showed any real evidence of substantially and consistently supporting African people in their fight against racism?

    Spawn of Satan, What is actually wrong about the quote you reproduced? It is true that European women have historically extolled their obessive sexual interest in African men. Not too long ago, Sharon Osbourne was going on about how she ‘wants to have sex with a ”black” man’. Most recently, the case of the so-called South African rapists in Northampton was proved to be a hoax. The alleged ”victims” were apparently caucasian.

    Jai Singh,

    Does ‘physical’, mean physical violence or physical protest? You seem to be the expert so please confirm.

  40. SajiniW — on 20th October, 2005 at 1:34 pm  

    I hate people who get the wrong end of the stick, and then twist the story to substantiate their own baseless point.

    Whatever happened to innocent ’til proven guilty?

  41. leon — on 20th October, 2005 at 1:38 pm  

    Jay Singh, that doesn’t look like Ligali are threatening just that they think there are people in that community angry enough to go in that direction. You’re clutching at straws here and adding more fuel to the fire than is needed.

  42. Jai Singh — on 20th October, 2005 at 2:26 pm  

    Leon,

    For everyone’s sake, I sincerely hope you’re correct.

  43. Rohin — on 20th October, 2005 at 2:27 pm  

    “Even some of my good Asian friends”

    Tired of Pretending, you have good Asian friends! What the? But we’re sworn enemies aren’t we? I thought you said we can never NEVER be friends?

    I don’t think there’s much need to continue this thread any longer, let’s agree to disagree and wait to see what happens.

  44. coruja — on 20th October, 2005 at 2:56 pm  

    I have heard this all before – Nigerian cab drivers saying things about Jamaicans, Pakistanis about Africans, Indians about Bangladeshis.

    I have heard worst things said about ‘black’ people by ‘asians’, not by anyone ‘white’, at least not in my presence. As to what black people say about asians, who knows, I have not found myself in that situation.

    I feel this is a part of the learned racism inherited from our former racially superior masters. The language and generalisations used by each group are the same as those used by white racists against all non-white people – only this time we applying it ourselves.

    I don’t think there has been a period in human history when such diverse groups of people have had to get along – not in such numbers at least. And may be no other city is as diverse as London. Unless they are looking for work in London I doubt your average Albanian, Polish, Brazilian and Sri Lankan person would ever meet each other.

    It is interesting to note these days when every ‘political commentator’ has something to say about multi-culturalism and is urging us ‘black’ people to integrate more with the wider community and adopt British values &etc &etc, no one is asking these various groups to make more of an effort to get on with each other. This is real shame because it will be amongst us that we can find help, understanding and empathy for what each of us has experienced.

    We are all here for certain historical and economic reasons and it is only us that stand to gain from finding common ground, articulating our common grievances and becoming an affective political force. Deciding which pound shop in Dalston you’re going to spend your pound will never make Dalston or your communities any better.

    A long time ago I read an article by an English journalist whose Indian-Malaysian wife died as a direct consequence of racism she experienced. It is the clearest article I have read about this subject. I have posted this URL before elsewhere and here it is again: http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4757714-103677,00.html

  45. PapaHomer — on 20th October, 2005 at 3:10 pm  

    “I feel this is a part of the learned racism inherited from our former racially superior masters ” Folks, you heard it right. Racism among Asians and Africans is ‘learned’. i.e ‘Blame Whitey’….It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad :-/

  46. Tired of Pretending — on 20th October, 2005 at 3:39 pm  

    Rohin, is that all you have to say about my post? Pathetic.

    Oh, and you forgot to quote the rest of my sentence ‘good Asian friends in the past’. I got sick of their parents acting like I was in their house to steal their silver… not to mention their own sly, bitchy and backstabbing practices. I have one Indian friend at the moment who I’ve known for years and has exposed me to the real racism of Asian culture which he doesn’t condone at all. Unfortunately, he readily admits that he is in the minority when it comes to his views and that the vast majority of Indian people hate Africans.

    Most people here seem to be skirting around the issues because deep down, they know that it is true. Asians hate African people intensely. I’m not talking about making comments about people, I’m talking about the active oppression of others, through violence, through economic means, through marginalisation, through endorsing an unequal and unjust system that benefits some at the expense of others; THAT is what racism is.

    Seems like most Asians are only willing to stand in solidarity with African people when there is something to be gained from it and not because it might be the right thing to do. How many Asian people do I see on protests regarding the many deaths of African people in police custody? Ans: None. Why? Because there is nothing to be gained from it.

    Lets look at the practice of Islam in this country…. When the bombings took place, Asian leaders were jumping up and down talking about the marginalisation of Asian youth, the disenfranchisement of the Muslim asian community, the asian youth anger at the injustice against their fellow muslims worldwide (excluding africa of course). At no point did I hear any of these muslims talking about the African muslim youth, despite the fact that a number of African men were involved in the various attacks on London. The muslim community is very racist towards African people. Many African muslims will testify to this. The most I have ever heard Asian muslims say about this is ‘racism is not the muslim way’ bla bla frigging bla.

    It is a mth that different people of differing cultures can not get along. African people historically, prior to the Arabic and European corruption of their culture, people and land have lived alongside varying cultures with minimal conflict. It is a very Eurocentric belief that promotes the notion that difference = conflict. Of course, in the West, this has become the reality as a result of their mindset.

    African people are by no means perfect and I will happily confront the issues we have to deal with, and in fact I do. However, we are starting to unite more and more, regardless of whether we are Africans from Nigeria, Jamaica or Britain. There is a waking consciousness and part of that consciousness is realising who are our friends and who are our enemies. End of.

  47. Jai Singh — on 20th October, 2005 at 4:13 pm  

    =>”Lets look at the practice of Islam in this country…. When the bombings took place, Asian leaders were jumping up and down talking about the marginalisation of Asian youth, the disenfranchisement of the Muslim asian community, the asian youth anger at the injustice against their fellow muslims worldwide (excluding africa of course). ”

    Can I categorically state, once and for all, that the terms “Asian” and “Muslim” are not interchangeable and synonymous. Not all Asians are Muslim (not even close) and by no means are all Muslims Asian (including those that were involved in the attempted 2nd bombings and indeed those who continue to be involved in anti-Western activities against the United Kingdom).

    It wasn’t “Asian leaders jumping up and down”, they were British Muslim leaders (many of whom are from the Middle East, not the Indian subcontinent), and similarly they were talking specifically about the marginalisation of British Muslim youth, NOT “Asian youth”. And it was British Muslim youth anger at the supposed injustices being perpetrated against fellow Muslims internationally, NOT “Asian youth anger”.

    Let’s get the facts straight here. Enough is enough.

  48. Col. Mustafa — on 20th October, 2005 at 5:07 pm  

    This is about a rape incident taking place in Birmingham, but somehow the asian population is being blamed.

    Now it seems as though Asians in general hate Africans.

    hmmm, the prejudice your talking about Tired of pretending, runs through the asian people themselves.
    Whether its a certain sikh that doesn’t like a muslim because of x, y reasons or vice versa.

    Even muslims amongst themselves being of the same religion dont like each other in many circumstances or places for whatever reason.

    Ill put the reasons down to ignorance, which also runs deep within human nature.

    Im sure one of your asian friends has pointed out to you the real feelings of asians towards africans, but you surely must know that your friend doesn’t represent the overall view of asians.

    And just for the shopkeepers who are overly protective and also in many cases are quick to judge.
    They own a business that provides goods for the surrounding public, but as you know many corner shop or just asian shops in general get targetted.
    In the sense that whoever is robbing them think that cos there asian its easier to rob them.
    Thats not true for all the cases cos that would be generalising .
    But when certain people enter shops, clerks get wary because of certain reasons.
    If its a young black male wearing lets say not a suit , then he will be watched more closely than if it was an older black male.
    Likewise the same clerks also give the same attention to white or asian younger males or females, why?
    Because there just more likely to nick something.
    Im not saying they will, not all young people do, but alot do.
    These shopkeepers aren’t trying to annoy people, there looking out thier business which many have put thier lifesavings into to get it started in the first place.

    Asains hate blacks, yeh asians hate blacks as much as blacks hate asians.
    The fact is its individual lives were talking about here, many blacks have many asian friends and asians have black friends. It differs from different areas or coummunities or just work.

    Too much generalising everything these days, its so fecking annoying.

  49. Neel — on 20th October, 2005 at 5:19 pm  

    I think it is a vast exaggeration to say all Asians are racist against black people. I can speak from my own experience with my dad (yes we have a shop!) being on the face of it racially prejudiced, ie. thinking black MEN are more likely to steal, white customers being racist and looking down upon him as a businessman. But once he gets to know someone to any sort of decent level then the racism disappears because he knows the person not a stereotype. He didnt hesitate at all to employ his friends son (who is black) at our shop and was treated no different to anyone else (who were Gujarati and Sri-Lankan Muslim respectively!)

    I am from South London and have been mugged at knifepoint twice both times by black men. Our family home was broken into whilst my mother was cooking by two black men ! If there is prejudice its not completely without justification.

    Another thing the Asian community is by no means homogonous, Muslims, Hindus , Sikhs all with their differeing cultures and religions. Please be specific and say British-Muslim/Pakistani when referrring to the London bombers because their were no Hindu/Sikh people involved.

  50. PapaHomer — on 20th October, 2005 at 5:25 pm  

    “It is a mth that different people of differing cultures can not get along. African people historically, prior to the Arabic and European corruption of their culture, people and land have lived alongside varying cultures with minimal conflict. It is a very Eurocentric belief that promotes the notion that difference = conflict. Of course, in the West, this has become the reality as a result of their mindset.”

    You’re deluded. Tell that to the Shona & the Tswana people. It’s that goddamn Whitey again folks..move along!

  51. Col. Mustafa — on 20th October, 2005 at 5:40 pm  

    FFS why go and ruin everything Hysterics.

    “It is a mth that different people of differing cultures can not get along. African people historically, prior to the Arabic and European corruption of their culture, people and land have lived alongside varying cultures with minimal conflict.”

    Sorry are talking about the Hittites, or maybe thier numerous wars with the Egyptians.
    Or maybe the Hittites fighting the Assyrians, or the Sumerians fighting for land or money.
    Where did you get that twisted bit of history from?
    Most of the early civilisations were based on warfare.
    They weren’t side by side all happy and sweet and then suddenly the people from europe came along and fucked things up.
    It just abit more complicated than that, i suggest you read up on the many african civilisations that lived before europeans ever even landed on thier shores.

    Humans are just humans.

  52. Col. Mustafa — on 20th October, 2005 at 5:57 pm  

    “im not ruining anything, actually i think the running in down to the blacks…if they react like this now, i hope they aren’t too angry when the whites boycott them and “protest” in similar style after the rape/mugging/other black extra curricular activity.”

    Not all africans are reacting in the way that your mentioning, most don’t even care or show the generic emotions towards it, like did you hear about that rape incident, yeh yeh its pretty fucked up, fucking bastards.

    Your just generalising.

  53. Rohin — on 20th October, 2005 at 6:00 pm  

    I’m getting a bit fed up with all the overt racism from several commenters.

    Sunny is currently away, but as one of the writers on here could I politely ask you to stop commenting on this post. The object of this post wasn’t for people to insult other races and vent racist views.

    It’s apparent that those in disagreement are not going to come to any resolution, so why don’t we bring this post to a close?

    PLEASE STOP COMMENTING ON THIS THREAD.

  54. Siddharth — on 20th October, 2005 at 6:01 pm  

    This comments box is getting soooo boring. Its brought out the worst in people and the racist trolls (from all sides) are crawling out of the fucking woodwork. Is it time to close comments on this thread yet? Nothing new here, move on.

  55. harry008 — on 20th October, 2005 at 6:17 pm  

    The article by Ligali is near enough in resemblance to extremist literature, we can all read between the lines.:) I feel this discussion is turning into somewhat of a racial bashing, Asians/Africans alike.
    Whoever wrote the article it seems is quite unaware that this is multicultural Britain 2005. These calls for boycott are in large going to fall on deaf ears. This sterotypical namecalling, well it isn’t representative of any of the communities by large. We are more integrated with each other, than some here might have us believe.
    For instance my own clientele base(Contractor work not a shop!) at the moment is largely of West Indian origin, including African Jamaicans, Trinidadian Indians, and my relationships with them are excellent. My business advisor is African… I have close friends who are Nigerian, Ghananian, Kenyan… Relationships extend to the point where my Kenyan friends have taught me Swahili to a extent where I can converse freely in it, and where they can converse freely in Hindi! I know so many Asian people, my family included who are married to Africans/West Indians. Africans and Asians are integrated closely everyday, we work alongside each other, we do business with each other and together, We live with each other…

    Furthermore I am surprised the ignorance with the article has been written about the Asian Community, which can be divided, by Religion: Muslims/Sikhs/Hindus/Buddhists/Jain, Region: Pakistan/India/Bangladesh/Sri Lanka, and furthermore sub divisions can be made in regard to caste, certain beliefs in religion eg, Sunni/Shia. The assumption you make is that we stand united, whereas nothing is further from the truth! We are all prone to differentiate from others, yes even if we are of the same skin, and of the same country. My Kenyan friends sometimes poke fun of other Kenyans who are of a another tribe!

    The lack of mainstream media seems to serve also the purposes of Ligali and those who advocate this seperation/segregration of communities. The mainstream media has learnt with relation to incidents in the past, that facts provide the basis for any story! If the case at hand was in the mainstream spotlight, facts would have been demanded. As the case is now, Ligali seem to advantage of the lack of facts, the mood of the moment, for it’s own self promotion.

    The biggest assumption I feel that has been made by Ligali is the assumption of the intellectual capacity of it’s targeted audience, the British African community, All who I have talked to (another assumption again, do you think that Africans and Asians do not talk about such things?) have equated such rhetoric which Ligali espouses to something which comes from the BNP and far right! So well done Ligali for alienating yourself from your own community!

    My last point is regarding the word ‘Black’, and how Ligali find it offensive!? If you look back in historical context about the words used to describe Africans, you would see a pattern emerging…The First Settlers in America during Slavery times used the word ‘Negro’ coming from the Spanish word for the colour black. Consequently the word was deemed deflamatory so was replaced by the ‘N’ word. Again this was deemed unfit, then it was Black, then Afro American and now the current word is African American, and once this is tainted by the idea for which it represents over time it too shall be deemed unsuitable and a new word/phrase shall be used. So you see the word itself is not offensive,it is the idea or thinking that the word represents, it is our thinking we should change not mere words, working towards breaking boundaries and dispelling ignorance, rather than findng incidences to build walls and divide us.

  56. Rohin — on 20th October, 2005 at 6:23 pm  

    Thank you IceMan.

    No hysterics, I am not losing sight of why we have shared fora and blogs. They are there to stimulate discussion – but there are rules. We will not tolerate obvious and deliberate racism, from anyone of any colour. By the same token, we wouldn’t tolerate any overtly prejudiced comments, such as sexism for example.

    Thanks.

  57. justme — on 20th October, 2005 at 6:27 pm  

    Beautiful, I think this is by far the most depressing thing I’ve read on the net for a good long time, and I had the misfortune to click onto a fascist website an’ all the other day, you folks have really outdone yourselves.

    A plague on all your houses, the only shame is that you’ll drag the rest of us down with you.

  58. Col. Mustafa — on 20th October, 2005 at 6:31 pm  

    “So you see the word itself is not offensive,it is the idea or thinking that the word represents, it is our thinking we should change not mere words, working towards breaking boundaries and dispelling ignorance, rather than findng incidences to build walls and divide us.”

    Good point Harry008 , people are so defensive about things as well these days that its hard to understand the agendas.
    I mean exactly what is Legalis point in all this, what is thier agenda?

  59. Col. Mustafa — on 20th October, 2005 at 6:33 pm  

    I suggest you read all the posts justme, and not point out the just the retards.

  60. Don — on 20th October, 2005 at 6:58 pm  

    Col. Mustafa

    Unfortunately the latter portion of this thread has been rather over-run by racists ( no offence, but could we avoid ‘retards’?). And I suspect that some who claim to be ethnically African or Asian are neither and are just indulging in well-poisoning.

    So as Rohin suggests, I’m checking out until the atmosphere gets a little less rank.

  61. justme — on 20th October, 2005 at 7:00 pm  

    Sorry Col, I was referring to the race-baiters, consider yerself vaccinated! ;0)

  62. god — on 20th October, 2005 at 7:03 pm  

    Asians being racist against blacks…

    never saw that coming.

    I mean why would they not be racist?

    people reared in a culture that causes them to hate their very own skin colour.

    go cry about not being able to marry someone because they think you are too dark

  63. jamal — on 20th October, 2005 at 7:51 pm  

    I see things are hotting up here. To be honest, the majority of what I read here is childish bickering, which is a prime example of black / Asian relations in some areas.

    Ive yet seen no confirmation of actual “gang rape”, nevertheless the discussion and “action” rages. I have found this thread has been linked to by various forums which is why the debate ensure.

    Lets not forget that rapes are committed and against various races by various races, furthermore, young girls do not always tell the truth.

    Maybe until the facts are substantiated, some people should hold their horses!

  64. birmzman — on 21st October, 2005 at 12:24 pm  

    Its easy to have this conversation on the net, some of you probably are not of african descent, not seeing and feeling what we here, and I live in birmingham very near to Perry Barr are feeling. Not experienced the day-to-day racism we experience covert and overtly from both the white and asian population.

    You simply are not getting it, all talk, but thats about to change. You do your politics, we are going to do our thing, regardless.

  65. PapaHomer — on 21st October, 2005 at 12:54 pm  

    Maybe you aren’t getting it either. I have every sympathy with your point and i’m sure other people on this thread feel the same. I certainly do not agree with what a number of racist f*ckheads have written. But you are going about it in completely the wrong way. Instead of trying to get people on side and build bridges, you are threatening them with reprisals. No matter how much i sympathise with your cause, i am never going to approve of the blatant generalisations about asian people that have been posted here by the person from Legali, and for that matter – speaking as a white man. I don’t take kindly to the inference that racist behavior was learned from white people (sorry to burst your bubble but as someone else stated here, it’s a human condition) or that africa or asia were great big islands of peace, tranquilty and brotherly love until whitey came along and f*cked it up for you all. So feel free, go ‘do your thing’. I have a feeling you will end up regretting it.

  66. birmzman — on 21st October, 2005 at 12:58 pm  

    18 men come to an agreement that it is ok to rape a 14 year old girl in every orifice of her body.

    And instantly whites and asians on here rule out racism. Why does it have to be a race thing?. Seems nothing is these days, even if its staring you in the face that it is.

    Thats the real pickle politics at play.. the blindness and apathy of whites and asians in the UK.

    Ask the locals of the area, who are followed around the shops and branded thieves. They generalize us on a day to day, but we are not allowed to do the same, called hasty when calling for boycott. Some how black people must love both whites and asians despite the atrocities they play out on us.

    And the police, you talking about the same police that tried to arrest me at 12 for armed robbery of a garage, when i’d been sent from my parents house to go buy grocery. The West Midlands Police… They don’t care, at the moment, all i see is a black girls been raped, and the police are watching black people in Perry barr to make sure we don’t kick off and thats all they care about.

  67. birmzman — on 21st October, 2005 at 1:05 pm  

    Sadam Hussein was the one that murdered how many Iraqi and supposedly was creating WMD’s. Did you guys bother to sift out who was the good iraqis from the bad, or did you drop bombs from 30,000 feet and kill Men, women, children and cattle…

    And you ask us to stay calm.

  68. leon — on 21st October, 2005 at 2:13 pm  

    I think people on here should consider before posting given that Ligali has seen fit to try and make news out of the comments here….

    http://www.ligali.org/article.php?id=339

  69. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 2:36 pm  

    Shall we talk about plant photography?

  70. krazie — on 21st October, 2005 at 2:40 pm  

    And Ligali should know that a website that is challenging streotypes will attract the attention of fringe group movements thus not making it the populus view.

  71. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 3:45 pm  

    Ligali is not a fringe group. It is an “organ of the community”

    When it speaks, you hear the booming voice of the “collective will of our community “.

    A bit like that episode of Star Trek: TNG, where Picard was assimilated by the Borg, but they needed a person to negotiate with the Federation so Picard became Locutus of Borg.

    i.e. he looked like Picard with some implants on, but really he was speaking with the collective will of the Borg community.

  72. Col. Mustafa — on 21st October, 2005 at 4:02 pm  

    With all this goddam talk around this issue, are you telling me that the police still won’t investigate the shop in question.

    I mean wtf is going on here, issues about asians hating africans and asian businesses being boycotted , its just so silly.

    If shes been raped then get the guys responsible.
    Its a fucking shop for gods sake, it cant move and run away.
    What are the protests for? Whats there to protest about?
    If someones committed a crime justice should be served.
    The police maybe racist as many say, but surely there gonna respond to an underage rape.

  73. Siddharth — on 21st October, 2005 at 4:07 pm  

    DavidT, the stentorian voice of the Harry’s Place Community (of wankers) speaks the truth. Ligali’s anger at the rape of a minor is like Christ’s anger at the Jewish usurists of the Temple: a bit camp, a little shrill, perhaps even a little self-righteous but justified. All you Racist Asian and White peeps would do well to divert this anger by smokescreening the the issue with personal anecodotes of how you got mugged by some “black yoot” instead of calling for the immediate arrest of the rapists. Oh sorry, you’re already doing that.

  74. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 4:12 pm  

    I’m sorry Siddharth

    I can’t possibly listen to what you have to say until you tell me WHOSE COLLECTIVE WILL DO YOU REPRESENT?

    Also, what sort of organ are you?

  75. Col. Mustafa — on 21st October, 2005 at 4:19 pm  

    I just figured the police would of arrested them, i understand this is a difficult situation regarding the victim but im not sure where this anger towards asians suddenly comes about.
    Thats like the KKK and every other ignorant group outhere thinking that an entire community is responsible for a few retards.
    These asian men would of probably raped an eastern european immigrant given that situation.
    Infact they would of raped anyone given that situation of power, thats because the men that did it are like that in the first place.

    Many businesses are run in this country by asians and africans but not all men would resort to raping a 14 yr old immigrant just because of a certain situation.

  76. PapaHomer — on 21st October, 2005 at 4:19 pm  

    the flaccid sort.

  77. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 4:25 pm  

    The police will not arrest people unless there has been a complaint.
    Judges have been known, upon occasion, to issue orders requiring complainants in sexual offences cases to give evidence when they don’t want to. That rare practice is usually condemned.

    I would have thought that Ligali risks being sued for libel if it names the alleged defendants in this case. They may find it difficult to defend such an action in the absence of a witness prepared to give evidence that she has been raped.

  78. Siddharth — on 21st October, 2005 at 4:53 pm  

    DavidT, blame it on my underdog mentality, I’m on the young girl’s side on this one. The rest of this comments box farce has had little mention about how justice should be served. But lots of material on how riven our communities are – but surely thats not very interesting, is it? (well I guess it is to many unfortunately). And that last comment of mine was not meant to rile you but rather, the annoying racists that have collected here. Sorry to have caused you any offence mate. I love your organ.

  79. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 4:55 pm  

    :) And yours is an angry, proud and impressive one too.

  80. Buddha — on 21st October, 2005 at 4:57 pm  

    “He insulted me, he hurt me, he defeated me, he robbed me.” Those that think such thoughts will never be free of hate.

    For hate is not conquered by hate: hate is conquered by love. That is an eternal law.

  81. birmzman — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:08 pm  

    @Col Mustafa

    The shop was owned by Eastern Europeans, i’m told they were Afghans, but the sold African hair products. They knew what type of women their products would attract, because their women do not use them. Week in week out, we buy from asians, and week in week out that shop was packed with black women turning their money over to these men. And how do they repay that, they then go on to rape a 14 year old black girl.

    You still have more excuses for the paedophiles..
    you don’t see racism in that, you never do and never will.

    That was a calculated attack, and over the muslim holy month, not one Islamic amongst them to say this is a barbaric act. Maybe Allah is a rapist too.. so its ok.

  82. Col. Mustafa — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:08 pm  

    Or more logic, hate is conquered by logic.

  83. birmzman — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:10 pm  

    This attitude is prevalent in asian men and i’ve been long observing it. Its not something that suddenly dawned on us after Satudays events, its something we’ve been seeing a long time.

  84. Col. Mustafa — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:14 pm  

    “You still have more excuses for the paedophiles..
    you don’t see racism in that, you never do and never will.”

    I don’t recall writing excuses for paedophiles you illiterate fool.
    Read my posts properly before you start making shit up.

    “The shop was owned by Eastern Europeans, i’m told they were Afghans, but the sold African hair products. They knew what type of women their products would attract, because their women do not use them.”

    So what are you trying to say, that these afghans should only sell products related to afghans.
    There not allowed to sell products that maybe needed by their surrounding neighbours.
    They shouldn’t by no means try and make a profit off thier shop, that would just be stupid.

  85. ami — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:18 pm  

    I am baffled by this site’s dogmatic insistence in decreeing that black is offensive and African is the only acceptable term. Says who, exactly? I thought I had been through all this. (Involved in the Struggle in SA in 70′s and 80′s, left when threats of security police got too heavy-hope that’s enough credentials)
    The term African was used by well meaning white Liberals in South Africa from the 50′s to the 70′s as opposed to a variety of offensive terms used by the regime. African was scorned as a patronising term by the Black Consciousness movement that grew in the 70′s (remember Biko?) The Black People’s Convention (founding member Winnie Mandela) grew out of this.

    By the 80′s the term Black was required usage in the Struggle, to refer to ALL people of colour, so that it was announced with pride that the first Black judge in the new South Africa was the late chief Justice Ishmael Mahomed (a Muslim of Indian heritage). This was clearly an expedient if artificial strategy to unify the people in the struggle and then in founding a new society, but it was not for people like me to argue. There were always tensions historically between Black South Africans who also alleged exploitation by Asian shopkeepers, and today these tensions are resurfacing for reasons relating to local politics.
    There was no idyllic time before the whites came: have you heard of the fearsome empire of Shaka Zulu who slaughtered and overran all the other tribes. The Bantu who swept into Southern Africa and overran the Khoi (bushmen etc)?
    We need to acknowledge history in order to move on to reconciliation based on truth, not delusion.
    President Mbeki made a speech a couple of years back announcing We are all Africans now- Black and White together.
    So where does that leave you with your appropriation of African and rejection of Black.

    There are satirical shows on SATV, written and performed by South African blacks, which mock just this kind of strident identity seeking by African Americans who visit SA and want to assert their brotherhood on their own terms.
    My humble proposal is: carry on working out who you want to be, but don’t try and impose universal decrees.
    And as someone who has historical experience of blood libels, do not jump on the lynch mob bandwagon to condemn “all Asians.”

  86. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:20 pm  

    Are Afghans Asians or Eastern Europeans?

    Who do we boycott? I’m confused. If Afghans are Asians do I have to boycott Keralians? Or if they’re Eastern Europeans, do I have to boycott Slovaks and Ukrainians too?

    What about Hungarians Poles and Czechs? Are they Central or Eastern Europeans.

    I am very confused

    PLEASE WILL SOMEBODY WHO REPRESENTS MY COLLECTIVE WILL TELL ME WHAT TO DO?

  87. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:23 pm  

    no hang on, its getting worse.

    Can somebody please tell me what sort of Afghans we think committed this offence.

    If they were Turkmen Afghans, do I have to boycott Turkish shops as well? What about Turkish Kurds? Are they exempt, or do we have to boycott them too?

    If they’re Tajiks, Balochis, Hazaras or Pashtuns, I don’t know what to do.

    The Afghan Aimaqs look a little bit chinese. Does this mean that I can’t go to the Sun Wah takeout tonight?

  88. birmzman — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:25 pm  

    Col Mustafa

    your looking an argument, and that to me is pointless. A little girls life as been changed forever and this truely burns me. As a human being, i would not want this to happen to any woman of any nationallity.

    my other statement wasn’t so much pointed at you, except the part where i was explaining about the shop.

    Asians, very rarely buy from black businesses or shops. You see i can stay on the net and spit nonsense with you all day about your ideal world, but the reallity out there is not faced up too. A little girl was locked in a shop and raped, you tell her that Afghan men are really good people….

  89. birmzman — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:26 pm  

    @David T

    Just do as you did in Iraq, the people you went to ahem, liberate, didn’t you bomb them as well.

  90. Geezer — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:27 pm  

    Did anyone read this posted on their website?

    We are not a racist organisation. So please do not confuse us with the BBC, Daily Mail or Guardian who all perpetuate an anti African ideology. We make no apologies for our overtly pro African ideology and will challenge anyone, whenever, wherever if they get in our way.

    The guardian and the BBC are racist and perpetuate an anti African Ideology?

    The rest seems like a barrage of insults calling us stupid and moronic.

  91. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:30 pm  

    I don’t think I did anything of the sort. But feel free to accuse me of anything you’d like.

    I suppose you’ll be boycotting me now.

    Good.

  92. birmzman — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:36 pm  

    I find it laughable when white folks try to take the moral high ground. The self confessed civilised ones who label those that oppose them barbarians. The BBC did that you know…

  93. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:37 pm  

    Oh but hang on… here’s the worry.

    Sure, we can boycott their shops, but given that they have the market in retail outlets for haircare products for african women completely sown up, who knows what else they’re running. Isn’t Sunny the head of some outfit called Asians in Media. Perhaps the Asians run the media!! Is there no end to their power? What if the asians are secretly controlling the WORLD?

    WHO REPRESENTS MY COLLECTIVE WILL???? TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!!!!!!

  94. Mokum — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:40 pm  

    you tell her that Afghan men are really good people

    Geezus H Christ! Can’t you see the racism in your own words? A whole people, for one group of men?

  95. Geezer — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:43 pm  

    birmzman sorry but the “facts” surrounding this case seem to be getting more and more complicated.

    You are claiming the shop is owned by Eastern Europeans and then you mention Afghans? You do no that these two groups are separated by a massive geographical distance and have huge cultural and language differences. Least of all neither of these two groups can be classified as ASIANS!

    That was a calculated attack, and over the muslim holy month, not one Islamic amongst them to say this is a barbaric act. Maybe Allah is a rapist too.. so its ok. [birmzman]

    WHAT A HYPOCRITE you are. Here you come on proclaiming to be defending the rights of blacks but yet make an extremely offensive remark about the Muslim faith? Do you know that half of the African population is MUSLIM!

    You have come on and shown your true colours….

  96. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 5:55 pm  

    Can somebody tell me what the most appropriate term is for a self-appointed ‘grass roots community organisation’ which uses rape allegations as a platform from which to organise a racist boycott of Asian businesses.

    I’m struggling, because I’m very conscious of the importance of using the correct terminology here.

  97. leon — on 21st October, 2005 at 6:38 pm  

    I think that’s a red herring; the issue here is on of an alleged crime and entrenched racism/mistrust in both communities against each other (which rightwingers love pointing it out).

    Those prejudices need to be confronted and dealt while this situation is resolved via the CJS…

  98. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 8:19 pm  

    I think I should make a confession. I have just been to a Vietnamese restaurant. They’re asians aren’t they?

    Have I broken the boycott?

  99. think — on 21st October, 2005 at 8:45 pm  

    “I think that’s a red herring; the issue here is on of an alleged crime and entrenched racism/mistrust in both communities against each other (which rightwingers love pointing it out).

    Those prejudices need to be confronted”

    I dont think these issues need to be confronted.
    I think it needs to be highlighted, within the black and african community, as just the
    exact reason, why blacks should have and use only black owned businesses.

  100. nukh — on 21st October, 2005 at 8:48 pm  

    i am truly shocked to read the racial remarks made by some asians on this forum.
    don’t you sons of bitches [racist asians only] understand that you aint nutin but a nigga for the whitey.
    stop the semantics and get behind the african community.

  101. nukh — on 21st October, 2005 at 8:52 pm  

    a caveat for the racist asians…guess some wise guy said this in nazi germany or somewhere else……

    “when they came for the jews, i stayed silent
    when they came for the communists, i stayed silent
    when they came for the catholics, i stayed silent
    when they came for____ sub your prejudice here, i stayed silent
    when they came for me, there was no one left to save me”

  102. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 9:15 pm  

    as just the exact reason, why blacks should have and use only black owned businesses.

    1. Please don’t use the term “black owned”. The appropriate term is “African owned”.

    2. What if there were an African owned business and an Asian owned business next door to each other, but the prices in the Asian owned business were slightly cheaper. What would you do if you saw an African person buying something from the Asian shop.

    Would you:

    (a) offer to pay the price difference to the shopper if he went to the African owned shop.

    (b) shout at the shopper in the street and picket his house.

    (c) do nothing.

  103. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 9:57 pm  

    Hey, this has turned into a racist free for all!

    Why don’t we all retreat into our own communities, find somebody to represent our “collective will” and open crappy shops selling shoddy overpriced goods to each other, while hissing aggressively at each other.

    That would be fun!

  104. harry008 — on 21st October, 2005 at 10:14 pm  

    The most obvious factor here is the plight of the poor girl, it’s such a shame to see how humans can fall back and degenerate so quickly as to start calling each other names, blaming another’s race…We have Ligali who is using this incidence to pursue it’s own delusional agenda, we have talk of retributional rapes and we have Asians being racist, Blacks(agreeing with AMI’s post, this word is the most PC at the mo) being racists. The potential is there to start a increasing circle of violent, hate-incited attacks upon one community to another. It is when this talk translates into action (God forbid) that we then realise our folly, but by then it’s too late. Websites like Ligali who try to purport a fair representation but really are biased should be held somewhat accountable for such encouraging rhetoric. Yes there is anger for the crime commited, but the message sent out should be one of reassurance to communities, to support the authorities in investigating the incident, not to incite prejudice and bring up existing rifts within local communities and/or the authorities. This really is not going to help anyone, least of all the victim.

  105. David T — on 21st October, 2005 at 10:35 pm  

    Basically, this is what has been going on.

    There has been an allegation of rape, made by somebody whose immigration status presents a bar to her making a report to the police. Whatever happened in this particular case, there’s a general lesson here: victims of crime who fear deportation are not protected by the law. Whether or not you think that people who are not lawfully in the country should be protected from criminals, it is clearly a matter of concern, at least, that criminals are not properly detected.

    That’s the central issue.

    The side issue, of course, is that Ligali are disgusting, opportunist, racist scum. Who the fuck to these self appointed “organ of the African British community” think they are? They’re simply clowns when they expend their time and effort laying down the law on the appropriate use of terminology. But when they organise absurd, grandstanding, rabble rousing “boycotts” of asian businesses… well, I mean. Put it this way. Have you ever heard of any organisation, apart from a deeply racist one, making such a proposal?

    The only thing that tops the nastiness of this whole business is the fact that Ligali have chosen to hide its racist agenda behind an allegation of rape. They’re fools but they’re not complete idiots. They hope to hide their disgrace behind a genuine, and emotive issue, which deserves proper attention, and indeed better advocacy.

    Isn’t this the precise photographic negative of the BNP’s march in Sunny’s honour?

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/51

    Its an irony isn’t it that Ligali leads with a story entitled “Idiot Howe gets caught in nonsensical race row”.

    http://www.ligali.org/article.php?id=340

    I’d check out Matthew 7:3 mate.

    http://bible.cc/matthew/7-3.htm

  106. T Nathan — on 21st October, 2005 at 10:55 pm  

    Iceman you’ve crossed the boundaries of legitimate debate.

    Of course it’s important to point out to people with selective memory of their defunct arguments, but to rely on racial stigmatisation, however valid, to counter, falls into a trap, allowing them to maintain their victimhood mentality.

    and you forgot to mention lee jasper .

  107. David T — on 22nd October, 2005 at 12:01 am  

    I am quite literally astounded by the venom of this thread!

  108. pecan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 12:04 am  

    whats up with all the racist snide comments on here!! and i mean from ALL sides! this has gone from a legitimate discussion of a rape/ rape attempt to a debate on which race is worse than another in terms of business, money and status. my heart goes out to the poor fourteen year old girl and her family and i just hope they dont have to read some of the things written on here!!!!
    where is the love?!

  109. strange tales — on 22nd October, 2005 at 1:49 am  

    Yeah, well in reference to China Girl, the media in this country is extremely biased. How the hell can you have blacks commiting all the crimes in the country, when black people ain’t everywhere in the country?

    They didn’t say boycott all Asian businesses, that’s illogical. What the hell has the newsagents round the corner got to do with anything?

    Iceman, you’ve just shown yourself to be as useless as your namesake. The drugs are actually coming from Columbia, and not “all” Jamaicans are drug mules. I could say “well with Asians now, all they do is beat their wives, have arranged marriages and munch on curry”. Now is this true? No.

    The logic of some people on this site is flawed.

  110. jamal — on 22nd October, 2005 at 2:25 am  

    Still no substantiated facts and the debate continues!

    I laugh at those that have made this a race issue, or consider it one, (cough) Ligali. Calling for a boycott has perpetuated the race issue, and true to form as we’ve also recently seen in Toledo, black people losing the ability of patience and rationality.

    Anyway, you boycott Asian shops. You’ll all change your minds when its time to cook sunday dinner!

  111. David T — on 22nd October, 2005 at 8:20 am  

    Personally, I blame the jews.

  112. T Nathan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 9:49 am  

    I love David T ‘s style . Who are you? Somewhere between a secret agent, neo-conservative, civil rights campaigner.

    n.b. if you’re actually a Jew-baiter, don’t start, Mr T was being sarcastic. He’s cunning like that. But I love him . xx

  113. pecan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 11:04 am  

    and over night nothing had changed on here!

  114. Old Pickler — on 22nd October, 2005 at 11:39 am  

    Blimey – I thought the Burkha thread was a little heated.

    This is mad.

  115. Jai Singh — on 22nd October, 2005 at 12:13 pm  

    Okay everyone, calm down. Don’t hijack this thread by turning it into an anti-Black punching bag; let’s stick to the original topic.

    Yes the crime — if indeed it happened — was disgusting, abhorrent, and the perpetrators should definitely be caught and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

    HOWEVER, I’ve noticed that nobody has yet clarified yesterday’s questions concering the actual ethnicity of the culprits. As has already been stated, Eastern Europeans and Afghans are not “Asians”……

  116. pecan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 12:21 pm  

    they are eastern european , ive been in the shop in question

  117. Rohin — on 22nd October, 2005 at 12:46 pm  

    Personally, I blame Sunny. For going away and not being able to shut this thread down!

    Whilst it is subject to his decision, I am sure that those of you who have been spouting racist nonsense, whatever race you belong to, will find yourself banned.

    It is amazing and truly disappointing how so many people have seen this thread as an opportunity to vent their prejudice. Perhaps it’s a good thing – people show their true colours.

    David T thanks for your humorous interjections!

  118. David T — on 22nd October, 2005 at 1:05 pm  

    To be serious for a mo, this is really nasty stuff. Its like turning over a stone and finding a bunch of ants fighting with each other…

  119. Old Pickler — on 22nd October, 2005 at 1:17 pm  

    finding a bunch of ants fighting with each other…

    Ant/Love Supreme hasn’t posted here yet!

  120. Mokum — on 22nd October, 2005 at 2:49 pm  

    china_girl, not liking people for the colour of their skin is totally wrong. I am sorry your family has had trouble. The criminals who brought that trouble should be punished, like all criminals. Everyone else is just, well, trying to make their way in the world. Give them a break.

    Call me “da bi zi” if you want. I think that’s kind of cute ;-)

  121. Mokum — on 22nd October, 2005 at 3:35 pm  

    china_girl, I think you will find that something unpleasant was happening in Britain in the “early 40s” that made immigration, well, a bit difficult.

    Bless. This one’s for you, baby:

    The five colours blind the eye.
    The five tones deafen the ear.
    The five flavours dull the taste.
    Racing and hunting madden the mind.
    Precious things lead one astray.
    Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees.
    He lets go of that and chooses this.

  122. T Nathan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 4:30 pm  

    Indian american Dinesh D’Souza wrote a brilliant book called The End of Racism. In which he basically said virtually all contemporary liberal assumptions about the origin of racism, its historical significance, its contemporary effects, and what to do about it are wrong. That cultural differences account for distinct levels of achievement among races, and as such racism cannot be blamed for “black failure.” A must read .

    Of course he got called a racist .

  123. Birmzman — on 22nd October, 2005 at 5:30 pm  

    what was this all about again ?
    oh yes, a little girl was raped in the back of a shop by 19 men.

    When Ian Huntley killed those two little girls in that community, the media wanted everyone in the country to mourn over their little english roses.

    When something tragic like this happens, you pull out the educational statistics of young black boys, for what purpose ? to excuse yourself.

    As i said in the beginning, easy to write crap on the net and make up an ideal world for yourselves but the reallity is no where near what you are writing.

    Your statistics are there to further add weight to the racism hidden in a lot of you.

    china_girl is no surprise to me at all, met many like her and men too. And you all think you hide it so well.

    I work in a profession where you don’t see many brothers, and white men are surprised to see me working in that role. One white man turned to another white man and asked if I was any good at what i did. I’ve been in the company for years functioning in my role. Why did he not ask me, if the other white guy was good at us job.

    racism is a built in thing in some of you. Black people merely react to your behaviour, but you guys, that is your behaviour.

    The same people that travel to spain, and build english pubs… lol.

  124. Birmzman — on 22nd October, 2005 at 5:38 pm  

    hysterics and ICEman…

    exactly, and the mentallity that you are exhibiting now, setup those webcams, setup the area’s we live in, give us jobs if you so choose, and fire us at will, and create the statistics, and then report it all back to us.

  125. HUssain — on 22nd October, 2005 at 5:40 pm  

    Pandi puddy .i respect the views of bizman, hence i have to leave you to your ignorance

  126. Birmzman — on 22nd October, 2005 at 5:44 pm  

    where is the cctv that surveil black people in the shop, where is it for the little girl @ Hysterics.

    the system serves to protect you all.
    and label us animals.

    up untill this happened i gave towards the Afghan earthquake, knowing that they have been labelled as we have by western media. Terrorists and babaric and i was not about to play into that. So I made sure i gave towards the relief effort. Only to find that the same people, i believe Afghans, can rape a black girl and no one in the community come forward, and police out there as i type protecting paedophiles..

    but hey, thats the UK government and law for you.

  127. Birmzman — on 22nd October, 2005 at 5:51 pm  

    hysterics,

    you telling me to go back to my own country? now where have i heard that before. gosh i’m hurt.

  128. Birmzman — on 22nd October, 2005 at 6:03 pm  

    hysterics,
    what choice is this then ?.

    Question.

    Did you agree with the war in Iraq ?
    Did you agree with your Prime Minister ?

    Do you agree with Poll tax ?

    If you don’t, with any one of the above, why don’t you English or whatever you are go back to Germainia…And give the rightful owners of this land their land back ?

  129. pecan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 6:10 pm  

    guys i think everybody just needs to chill out now, this has gone way over the top now!!!!
    Lets all remember the issue we were discussing at the start please! Degrading one another’s culture is not the way forward. An alleged rape has taken place and these comments made here are so derogatory that we should all just hang our heads in shame!!!!
    if a crime was purportrated, it needs to be reported, and dealt with by the police… who will establish the facts around the case. so everybody just calm down.PeaceX

  130. Birmzman — on 22nd October, 2005 at 6:17 pm  

    oh, so you rape a black girl and now you want to talk nuclear weapons and wiping out african states. ??? hmmm interesting how we got there so fast. Maybe that was in the minds of the rapists to at some level, only a black girl, she might as well be dead.

    Pecan,
    gonna take your advice, this ain’t worth it. And it doesn’t help the little girl.

  131. Birmzman — on 22nd October, 2005 at 6:23 pm  

    affirmitive action, there you go again with your words of politics.

    On the ground mate, I’ve met some truely dumb white men, and some dumb asians and dumb black men too. However I don’t then go looking to make up statistics to prove that one set is more inferior than the other.

    What’s coming out of you, is exactly what I was talking about at the beginning of the thread.

    This belief in other groups that they are better, and though not always voiced as clearly as you are doing Iceman, it is there and we detect it.

    Interesting what you said too, about black people cleaning the toilets once you lot leave.

    seems your eyes are open to some things and closed to others..

    That is the apathy of which I speak..

  132. pecan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 6:30 pm  

    yes it does not help the girl in question that we are all going off at various tangents over this.
    i think when the editor gets back this whole board needs to be wiped, its degenerated into a mass hysterical brawl.

  133. Birmzman — on 22nd October, 2005 at 6:34 pm  

    Pecan,
    Peace, i’m out !

  134. pecan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 6:44 pm  

    for the record again, the shop in question in the local area is not run by what is classified as asian or south asian. It is run by Eastern Europeans.

  135. pecan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 6:47 pm  

    i’ll keep reiterating that at intervals i think! or i’ll just buy a parrot!

  136. David T — on 22nd October, 2005 at 7:15 pm  

    i’ll keep reiterating that at intervals i think! or i’ll just buy a parrot!

    I’m afraid the parrot has just been diagnosed with avian flu.

  137. pecan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 7:22 pm  

    hahahaha at David T

  138. leon — on 22nd October, 2005 at 7:50 pm  

    I agree with Rohin, Sunny shouldn’t have buggered off and left this one open for tory racists, pro war “lefties” and the ethnic reactionary brigade…

  139. ASIANS ARE RACIST — on 22nd October, 2005 at 8:36 pm  

    All – please keep up the good work. Your ‘postive’ comments have been picked up by several media and African organisations who have been monitoring these boards.

    It doesnt take much for asians to start spewing out their true feelings. Trust me, you are doing us a favour. I have been telling African people for years about the mindset of all Asian people, regardless of their specific ethnic location/allegance and you have proved my point perfectly.

    Thankfully, for the 3000 people in Brum today, it didnt stop us uniting and showing support for the family. It is interesting that NO asian organisation, business or public figure has taken the time to intelligently and sensitively address this issue. All you needed to do was say ‘lets help find these people if its true that this incident has occured’. Its quite simple and would have avoided the current tensions. Instead, you are all harping on about ‘black peopel stirring up racial tensions’. Well if the alleged rape of a young girl ‘stirs up tensions’ then surely, they were already there to be stirred?

    if the situation were reversed, I very much doubt that the asian community would be sitting on their arses and yet, here you are criticising us for doing the same thing you would do.

    However, as i said before, sometimes it takes the honesty of racist asians and others to wake people up, so continue with the racist comments. If they were actually informed and intelligent, perhaps I might actually take them seriously but predictably, they are childish, irrelevant and more often than not, stupid.

  140. leon — on 22nd October, 2005 at 9:03 pm  

    So, none of you see how well this reactionary nonsense is playing into the hands of hardliners and BNP types? Anyone?

    The blanket condemnations on all sides here (aswell as this blog being used as a media source to stir up more nonsense) is pitiful.

  141. David T — on 22nd October, 2005 at 9:16 pm  

    Oh – look what I just found in the rubbish bin… wait a sec… its a piece of paper…there’s something written on it…I can just about make it out…it says:

    GET SOME FUCKING PERSPECTIVE

  142. leon — on 22nd October, 2005 at 9:51 pm  

    @Handsworth Boy you’re reactionary posting is being read and used to stir up more shit, get a grip.

  143. David T — on 22nd October, 2005 at 9:58 pm  

    Given that, according to the BBC, a man has been killed, it might be time to cap the rhetoric.

  144. leon — on 22nd October, 2005 at 9:59 pm  

    Screaming racists at everyone doesn’t exactly help things mate. Like I say get a grip.

  145. David T — on 22nd October, 2005 at 10:08 pm  

    jeez.

    Do you think you might can it?

  146. Paul S — on 22nd October, 2005 at 10:25 pm  

    I would like to make a request that the admin of this site deletes some of the more incendiary rhetoric on this comments thread – things are looking bad and you shouldnt be used to add flames to the fire

  147. leon — on 22nd October, 2005 at 10:52 pm  

    Agree with the above and with David T, this situation is getting serious and people on here adding fuel to the fire should consider before posting anymore hate filled nonsense.

  148. Paul S — on 22nd October, 2005 at 11:01 pm  

    ADMIN

    Please delete all racist and provocative posts here from both sides – one man is dead and lets not let the good pages of this blog to be used by people with agendas to stir up trouble.

  149. fridgemagnet — on 22nd October, 2005 at 11:14 pm  

    Agreed; I came here interested in the story but it’s sad to see that the comments page has been flooded with trolling by fascists. It’s not hard to see the agenda that’s brought them here.

  150. Paul S — on 22nd October, 2005 at 11:21 pm  

    I woudlnt be surprised if some of the comments here are written by BNP trolls

    ADMIN – Please delete the posts from this threat – a man is dead and tension is rising.

  151. Perry barr — on 22nd October, 2005 at 11:46 pm  

    The name of the shop is “Beauty Queen” on Wellington Road, in Perry Barr, opposite the Crown & Cushion pub.

  152. pecan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 11:48 pm  

    people a man is dead cos of all of what s been going on! im hoping we can all find it in our hearts to say a prayer for the poor individual who has needlessly lost their life tonight. as i write i can hear the helicopters and police sirens out there, police putting their life on the line to protect us all.

  153. pecan — on 22nd October, 2005 at 11:53 pm  

    this area is so volatile i really think that pointing out the name of the shop as someone previously did is going to stir it up more.or was that the general intention?

  154. Perry barr — on 22nd October, 2005 at 11:55 pm  

    No!!!!! Someone asked where the shop was.

  155. Paul S — on 22nd October, 2005 at 11:55 pm  

    This is the same area that sparked off the 1985 Handsworth Riots in which a couple of people lost their lives.

    In all seriousnes, if the ADMIN can please delete the provocative comments on this thread and monitor it carefully.

  156. leon — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:01 am  

    I think given the legal nature of this situation maybe we should hold off from posting up details of the area etc.

  157. Don — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:09 am  

    Paul

    I don’t think admin is around. Which is why this has turned into the ugliest thing I have seen in quite a while. Some of the postings have an edge of hysteria to them, people getting unpleasantly excited by their own vicious hate.

    The topic is long dead, this is just a hate-fest. Kindest thing would be to shoot it in the head. Romero should make a movie of this post.

  158. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:09 am  

    paul s- the admin unfortuanately is not available to delete this thread until possibly tomorrow. that is if it is deemed appropriate to delete it.

    to everybody else-this thread did not start to cause offence to any communities but to legitimately discuss the allegation of rape.

  159. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:11 am  

    admin intended this to be a discussion but it has been taken overby rabble rousing racists on ALL SIDES!

  160. jamal — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:12 am  

    So, 256 comments, a number of arrests, a semi-riot, a dead man….

  161. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:16 am  

    …and still no official police complaint.

  162. jamal — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:19 am  

    So, 256 comments, a number of arrests, a semi-riot, a dead man….

    …AND STILL NO PROOF OF WHETHER THIS GIRL WAS ACTUALLY GANG RAPED BY 14 ASIANS!

    EVEN IF SHE WAS GANG RAPED BY 1400 ASIANS INSTEAD OF THE SUPOSED 14, WOULD ALL OF THIS CONFLICT AND RACIST STUPIDITY HAVE MADE ANY DIFFERENCE?

    BLACKS HAVE NOW LIVED UP TO THEIR STEREOTYPE OF BEINNG ARROGANT, BRAINLESS IDIOTS, LIGALI HAS INCREASED THEIR PROILE, AND THE BNP WILL GET MORE VOTES AT NEXT YEARS ELECTION!

    WELL DONE.

  163. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:27 am  

    its an eastern european business!!!!

  164. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:27 am  

    jamal does make a very valid point.

  165. Perry barr — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:30 am  

    I heard this story last week, and its still not known if its true. I just hope that there is some CCTV footage in the area.

  166. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:34 am  

    i just hope that this shit stops because it wasnt even an asian gang!!!!and i know the girl is suffering if this is all true but the longer she takes to come forward the longer the mayhem will carry on with no one to affirm and accept, or or deject, for that matter.
    i think the extreme overreaction to an unconfirmed story is ridiculous and in an area where feuding gangs exist(the same ara where charlene ellis and letisha shakespeare were murdered), this aggravated action is going to result in more death drama and greif.

  167. Perry barr — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:36 am  

    Does anyone now if its really true? If so they should go to the police. Someone has been killed over something this has not been confirmed.

  168. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:40 am  

    @ perry barr- you are right but so far the alleged victim has not come forward apparently due to a possible mistrust of the police and the alleged immigration issue.
    but with her not coming forward this will carry on and asians are taking a load of flack for somethig that i have said is nothing to do with our community, the whole outpouring of violence has been due to local hoodlums and youths of all colors raising the tensions. the protest was billed as a peaceful one, yeah right there was no way it would have culminated peacefully with such tension in the area.

  169. Perry barr — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:45 am  

    I cant believe this is happening! I just left Birmingham a few weeks ago and all this madness is going on. Some one who knows the girl should say something.

  170. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:51 am  

    yes but the girl herself is the only one who can provide any forensic evidence to prove assault. the longer she waits the evidence will be eradicated and by now probably has, that means no DNA evidence or not a sufficient amount of it. the police CAN NOT invesigate without her co operation their hands are tied.

  171. Wonderwall — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:17 am  

    Anyone know anything about the Guy who was Killed?? Age ect??

  172. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:20 am  

    the guy was in his 20s, aparently his taxi was set alitght

  173. Paul S — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:23 am  

    The dead man was stabbed – a woman on a BBC phone in show said it was a black youth who has died.

  174. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:24 am  

    apparently its two dead now

  175. John Bull — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:30 am  

    Why didn’t they just target and rape white kids in Keighley?? At least that way the police would never have pursued any racial motivation, the local community would have done nothing and the media would totally ignore the crimes, instead pursuing side issues like racist whitey and the BNP. I just don’t get these rapists who don’t target whites. Anyway, I’m off to listen to my Bob Marley CDs with a nice big spliff. Hopefully a few more will be dead when I wake up tomorrow. Oooh yeah man.

  176. Unity — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:32 am  

    Ligali is an organ of the African British community, for the people by the people. Our comments reflect the collective will of our community and did not generalise about Asians in any way.

    Fine words…

    But from where, exactly, do you derive your mandate to speak for the ‘African British’ community?

    How many of this community do you actually represent – I don’t mean claim to represent but actually represent, as in the actual membership of your organisation?

    Taking figures from the last census, the Black (African, Caribbean and Other) population of the UK is around 1.15 million people – who, as an aside, seem to have had little or no difficulty in ticking a box which describes them as being ‘Black’ – how many of them are actually members of your organisation? 50? 100? maybe 250? Let’s be generous and say 1,000, in which case you actually ‘reflect the collective will of…’

    …0.08% of ‘the community’.

    Not much of a mandate there is there?

    Or, shall we put it another way – you are actually about as representative of the collective will of the community as Christian Voice is of the Christian community in the UK, i.e. not at all.

    Like. it seems, several people in this thread, I actually live in Birmingham and the last thing we need here is a bunch of London-based wannabe Black Panthers stirring up trouble and advocating vigilantism in order to try to make a name for themselves.

    Even without the ‘victim’ having come forward its reported that there have been five arrests relating to this allegation – the police are investigating and need to be allowed to do their job… or are some people so dumb that the fail to realise that kicking off trouble takes officers away from the investigation of the alleged rape in order to cope with the problems on the streets.

    Yes, a death has been reported – nothing as yet has been said publicly about the ethnicity of the deceased or the circumstances in which it happened.

  177. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:37 am  

    Two dead reported by The Telegraph

  178. j0nz — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:42 am  

    One man was stabbed to death at a take­away food outlet in the Lozells area of the city. Unconfirmed reports said another man also died when a minicab was set alight

  179. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:42 am  

    thank you for your humane perspective.not.

  180. Wonderwall — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:43 am  

    Well God rest them….whover they worshiped……..

  181. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:57 am  

    sikhs hating “pakis” as u so eloquently put it, racism is a two way street!!! as for a flood, for shame man. but that said your entitled to say your bit so carry on.

  182. Spike — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:01 am  

    Wow – Stuart reads this thread and is struck by Asian racism when black racists say all Asians are guilty for the crimes of individuals – looks like Stuart is a smug little Paki Basher himself.

  183. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:02 am  

    yeh i’ll say he probably is.

  184. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:08 am  

    racist in all races- no shit neither!!! guess we agree on something stuart.!

  185. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:09 am  

    so you advocate paki bashers, even if you aren’t one.

  186. Unity — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:09 am  

    Stuart:

    Better to stay silent and have people think you’re an idiot than open your mouth and prove it.

  187. Perry barr — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:14 am  

    Maybe Stuart likes Johnathan Wodgate because of his skills as a footballer?

  188. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:15 am  

    in a perfect world yeah.

  189. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:22 am  

    in which case im glad that not everybody on this forum is following “the beat of the folks”.

  190. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:24 am  

    anyway i’m off.peace all.X

  191. neo — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:30 am  

    The problem with some people in this thread is that they dont use their brains and realise that the voice of racists tend to be louder than the voice of non-racists. Racists are not the majority, and if you believe that, then you’re one of the brainless people im talking about.

  192. Pelayo — on 23rd October, 2005 at 3:38 am  

    Gang rapes in London:

    59% of victims are white

    49% of gang rapists are black
    13% of gang rapists are of Indian/Pakistani appearance

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3397433.stm

    Should white people in London riot?

  193. Me — on 23rd October, 2005 at 7:30 am  

    Taken from the Ligali website:

    http://www.ligali.org/comment.php?artID=339

    ‘I remember the endless African faces I saw at demonstrations against the Iraq War, the injustice of Palestine and even to my dismay, some African businesses donating money to those that suffered in the tsunami. Why? Why should we do this? Have we ever been supported in a similar way by Asian communities? Ans: NO! They are a sly and shrewd people, even they will admit that. Their only association with us to one of taking advantage. Not too long ago, there was a case of an Indian business man who would knowingly sell out of date meat to the African people that frequented his shop. We know that this is not an isolated incident’

    WTF is that about? So what, you can now justify the war in Iraq because it involved Asians? Or the victims of Tsunami didn’t deserve the hard earned money of African businesses because they were Asian? Give me a break, you really have shown your total lack of understanding about the world we live in today.

    I work with Afro-Caribbeans (seeing as you take such great offence to being called black) in the Handsworth/Lozells/Perrybarr area of Birmingham, and I come across an unbelievable amount of racism, not directed towards me (an Asian), but directed towards other Afro-Caribbeans. The Somalians hate the Jamaicans, who hate those from Trinidad and so on. There’s a world of difference between your cultures, I understand that and wouldn’t dream of saying that I’m never gonna erm hang on, you guys don’t actually have any businesses that we can boycott :D Point is, I would never consider stopping my donations to Africa because of the way *some Afro-Caribbeans have reacted to this apparent rape.

    I work in a mostly Afro-Carribbean team, and have hard the story change a number of times. It started off being about a 14 year kid that was kidnapped, taken to the back of the shop and raped and now stands at a 14 year old that was caught shoplifting and was ‘punished’ by way of gang rape by 14 men for three days. Now what I’m having most trouble with is understanding the mindset of this 14 year old and her family. What apparently happened is totally hideous, but her immigration matters more to her than bringing these people to justice? As Lenny Henry would say, I don’t tink so! We all know how close knit the Afro-Caribbean community of Birmingham is (or like us to believe), yet nobody knows the identity of this girl. It sounds rather dodgy to me.

    I bet you guys are going to feel really really stupid if this girl doesn’t even exist …
    to being called black)

  194. Me — on 23rd October, 2005 at 7:33 am  

    ^ delete last 4 words

  195. Scott — on 23rd October, 2005 at 7:54 am  

    You know this message board is becoming like a microcossom of society. Step back from it for a second and look at how it has degenerated from a meaningful discussion about a specific incident to a series of blinkered, abusive tirades. Nobody listens to anybody, everybody wants to score points, everybody feels threatened… very sad.

    If I can attempt to be objective and bring things back to the main issue, I think the following question is crucial:

    When the protesters were calling for ‘justice’ for the alleged rape victim, what did they mean? What justice did they want and who did they expect to deliver it bearing in mind their was limited evidence?

    I think that so much hinges on this question. If the protesters never had any criteria for justice then they could be accused of lighting the touch paper and stepping back. If, however, there was a clear understanding of what justice could mean (within the context of a lack of evidence) then the media has failed the protesters by not reporting this.

  196. Puzzled Liberal — on 23rd October, 2005 at 9:48 am  

    The true explanation for this is staring us all in the face. Everywhere else in the world different “races” and religions have existed in vibrant harmony for thousands of years. Why is the UK so different? Why has mass immigration not produced paradise as all but vicious racists knew it would?

    It’s simple:

    White racism.

    So the solution is equally simple:

    More mass immigration to reduce the percentage of whites in the population still further.

    Thank God our government can see this simple truth and is encouraging more mass immigration as hard as it can.

  197. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 11:37 am  

    Certain organisations and people have turned this alleged assaut into the most blatent agenda pushing i have ever seen, i believe that some people believe the boycott of asian business was a success.
    Really? For a couple of weeks maybe.

  198. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 11:39 am  

    And whilst we’re at it, lets blame the BBC for its inaccurate reporting, (sarcasm)!!!!im sure from the media side we can use them as the scapegoat!!!

  199. harry008 — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:12 pm  

    WTF is happening here? lol so much for a progressive forum..damn! In the current situation of no present authorities to regulate this thread…I shall put myself forward as the illicit arms dealer….race/creed no bar everyone’s a brother & everyone’s welcome and gets a 10% discount, Now sir what will be your weapon of choice?.
    ‘Theres’s a war coming you here..”Ammo-Nation shop owner. GTA SA. :)

  200. harry008 — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:15 pm  

    ‘There’s a war a coming you hear’ … typos sorry my bad.

  201. Unity — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:19 pm  

    And whilst we’re at it, lets blame the BBC for its inaccurate reporting, (sarcasm)!!!!im sure from the media side we can use them as the scapegoat!!!

    Funny you should say that Pecan…

    The corporation steadfastly continues to maintain that the ‘Birmingham Riots’ were the aftermath of a public meeting convened to address rumours of a sexual assault on a fourteen year old. In its articles on the BBC West Midlands local website it deliberately omits all details of the pertinent ethnicity issues which stoked the problem and fails to highlight that one of the central tenants leading to the launch of the Campaign for Silent Victims was to address the media whitewash by media institutions such as the BBC who failed to give the story any national prominence until a second and far larger protest was organised to attract media support and attention for the plight of the alleged victim.

    http://www.ligali.org/article.php?id=344

  202. Ligali Are Racists Bigots — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:33 pm  

    These Ligali people are a hilarious band of racists – having read their screed its clear they are rabble rousing bigots of a pernicious type and I hope they are happy for the trouble they have caused.

    Lets take a similar situation – Asians campaign for ‘racial justice’ in the aftermath of gang rapes, murders and muggings by black men against Asians.

    What a bunch of whiny racists – and as yet we are not sure that the rape actually occured or that the circumstances of the rape were as this lynch mob racist organisation described.

  203. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:33 pm  

    Media were right to say that the riots were a result of the meeting. as i said before it was billed as peaceful but like hell it wa going to happen in an area where gun culture is rife!

  204. Ligali Are Racists Bigots — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:39 pm  

    Wow

    Those figures from the BBC are startling:

    49% of gang rapists are black

    Maybe we should start a campaign against the epidemic of gang rape that black men indulge in and what are the root causes of this plague of gang rape by blacks?

    Why is the black community putting up a wall of silence about the epidemic of gang rape amongst black men?

    I think we need to undertake some protests for justice for those who suffer from gang rape by black men and do not get justice due to the wall of silence by the black community.

  205. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:41 pm  

    i think the main thing that we all agree on here is that two wrongs don’t make it right!

  206. Me — on 23rd October, 2005 at 12:42 pm  

    Like Pecan said, this is the most blatant agenda pushing I have ever seen.

    Does anyone actually have a clue what it is that we’re meant to be doing? Do these people believe that justice can be served without the alleged victim coming forward?

  207. Siddharth — on 23rd October, 2005 at 1:13 pm  

    I blame the BBC, Multi-Culturalism, the Taliban and the Tate Gallery for this un-English mess!

  208. Q — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:04 pm  

    stuart you are a cunt.. first of all do you realise without the asians in this country the uk would be a third world country?!! who would be your doctors, shopkeepers leaders of industry? think about it! as for all those dumb black people out there please when did you think you were on the same level as as us asians? look at the facts we all came around the same time to this country in mass immigration in the 50′s and 60′s and look who has done better for themselves? even idi amin was so jealous of us he kicked us out! now look at uganda and the rest of ou your pitiful continent! you fuckin jungle monkeys should stay in your fuckin mud huts and and hunt wild animals there is no other use for you..

  209. dude — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:18 pm  

    there are idiots on both sides makign the situation worse.

    innocent asian people in the area have been verbally abused beign called rapists, even old age pensioners.

    and now poeple are fighting . i reckon the people , if guilty, should be caught and severely punished.

    there was another rape case that hapened nerby in west bromwich which got no covererage here is the link

    http://www.west-midlands.police.uk/onlinepress/appeals.asp?id=817

    maybe they should also campaign about this too, as all rapists, regardless of race are evil and deserve to die.

  210. Ligali Are Racists Bigots — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:34 pm  

    stuart

    Well, I happen to admire the Jewish community immensely – thank Yahweh they dont have as many cunts and cocksuckers as you amongst them ;-)

  211. Col. Mustafa — on 23rd October, 2005 at 2:41 pm  

    Why are fools commenting on here?

  212. Col. Mustafa — on 23rd October, 2005 at 3:12 pm  

    Well this tiny insignificant cussing match went well.
    So many of problems have been solved through this, i just feel all tingly .

  213. ghandi — on 23rd October, 2005 at 3:49 pm  

    ‘Stuart’

    I said regarding Jews

    My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution.”

    http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/mideast.htm

  214. T Nathan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 4:09 pm  

    OK EVERYONE STOP NOW

    I PERSONALLY BLAME EVERYONE ELSE BUT ME

    ANYWAY ,REGARDING THE ORIGINAL MATTER :

    Assistant Chief Constable David Shaw, from West Midlands Police, described the violence as “entirely unacceptable”.

    He urged people not to “take the law into their own hands”.

    Mr Shaw pleaded with people to stop spreading unsubstantiated rumours and deal in facts to prevent a reoccurrence of such violence.

    He said there was “not a shred of evidence” to support the allegations that the girl had been subjected to a serious sexual assault, but investigations were continuing.

    END

  215. T Nathan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 4:18 pm  

    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    END
    GO TO SLEEP

  216. T Nathan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 4:19 pm  

    ZZzzz zzzzzz.. … . . .

  217. Foureyes — on 23rd October, 2005 at 4:38 pm  

    What a thoroughly unpleasant set of comments.

    The attitudes displayed here are really going to help

  218. Birmzman — on 23rd October, 2005 at 4:46 pm  

    Some interesting reporting, I’ve observed on Sky News.

    Allegations of a rape of a 14 year old girl by a man, the girl is pregnant.

    The Police have arrested 5 men for the alleged rape, but the girl was raped by one man ? hmmmm

  219. Lady Madonna — on 23rd October, 2005 at 5:23 pm  

    if these ‘angry young black men’ were rioting because they want to see justice being served why were they robbing shops and ransacking the tills of those shops? (footage on bbc site)

    do they want justice and a real investigation or do they just want to rob a few places?

    well done – i’m sure everyone can see how impassioned they feel about the matter as they rob and loot.

    natural disaster? lets rob a plasma tv – alleged rape? lets rob a few shops – that’ll get the police and public on our side!!!

    when a black family were recently imprisoned for the systematic abuse of a child they thought was a witch where was the outcry from the black community then? or the rise in gun-crime in nottingham perpetrated by a majority of black males in nottingham? why was there a ‘black wall of silence’ immediately afterwards that protected the black men who gunned down an innocent black girl? why was there no roiting then?

  220. David T — on 23rd October, 2005 at 5:39 pm  

    If we can take a break from the disgusting racism, just for a moment…

    I’m assuming that the “Community leader… Salma Yakub” referred to here:

    is in fact the Repect/Muslim Brotherhood activist:

    http://www.respectcoalition.org/elect/local.php?seatid=34

    I wonder if they make special shoes with springs in the heels for bandwaggon jumpers.

  221. David T — on 23rd October, 2005 at 5:39 pm  
  222. Sanjay — on 23rd October, 2005 at 5:56 pm  

    Well the latest news is that black gangs smashed into Indian owned pubs in Handsworth and started stabbing people in there and also started to loot from Asian shops especially jewellrey shops.

    All this has begun from unsubstantiated reports of a rape which has been used by black militant groups to whip up hatred and violence against Asians.

    Black people have been going on pirate radio stations saying that they are going to gang rape Asian girls and as usual Asian businesses and property are being targetted by those deranged with envy hatred and jealousy.

    The people who started these rumours are evil racist scum and they should be held to account for initiating a near race riot – something tells me that they will be rubbing their hands with glee though.

  223. Col. Mustafa — on 23rd October, 2005 at 5:58 pm  

    Its like a bunch of kids, noone wants to back down, they have to keep arguing.

    Blacks are the best, nooo asians are….
    Token jew boy comes in, hey guess what were better than all of you.
    No one fucking cares, FUCK OFF YOU MORONS.
    GO AND FUCKING PLAY SOME COMPUTER GAMES OR SOMETHING.

  224. Col. Mustafa — on 23rd October, 2005 at 6:01 pm  

    wow, thats so funny.
    You must be so proud.

  225. Col. Mustafa — on 23rd October, 2005 at 6:02 pm  

    I amazed at how shit these racist jokes are, at least try and be funny.

  226. Col. Mustafa — on 23rd October, 2005 at 6:11 pm  

    Dunno which one the jew is, but with that sort of humour your giving your own people a bad name.
    Certain jews have worked hard for thier comedy, trying to get away from shit, no brainer humour like that.

  227. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 6:15 pm  

    grow up people.

  228. Col. Mustafa — on 23rd October, 2005 at 6:18 pm  

    You need more admins sunnyyy..

  229. Col. Mustafa — on 23rd October, 2005 at 6:22 pm  

    Yeh keep talking shit dude.

  230. Col. Mustafa — on 23rd October, 2005 at 6:39 pm  

    hehehe, you see the difference here is that no matter what colour or religion the person maybe, intelligent people would read your posts and brand you as an idiot.

    Thats the bottom line so keep talking shit.
    Your right it is funny, it amuses me.

  231. Col. Mustafa — on 23rd October, 2005 at 6:45 pm  

    “I don’t know how much damage the Black men are doing but I ENCOURAGE them to continue to defend the honor of Black women and mop the goddamn place up with those who attempt to violate us, our women, and our self-respect.

    Just like whites had to learn, Asians must learn a lesson in respect for Black skin also.

    Have some of us no sense of pride and honor?
    Have some of us gotten so soft and fat sitting on our asses with a nice cushy jobs that we got by being TAMED in the white man’s educational system….along with plenty of money and food to waste that we will attempt to foreit the future of our race by asking the Black community to “stand down” in the face of obvious insult?

    Who cares if the alleged rape victim can’t be found….thousands of Black men have been lynched and killed by BOTH Asians and whites on rumors alone so what’s good enough for the goose is good enough for the gander as far as I’m concerned.

    Stop letting these people off the hook when it’s obvious that power and violence is the only thing they respect, not calls for peace and unity.
    They don’t respect OR love us….they only tolerate us to get closer to whites and live in this country.

    If you ask me, every single Asian business in the Black community from London to San Diego down to Sao Paulo need to be shut down and swept out.

    The riot/boycott/movement whatever the hell you want to call it should spread to the Caribbean where so many Asians have economic and political control over Black people and undoubtedly exploit our women and our resources on a daily basis.”

    I dunno who the fuck wrote this but woahhhhh.
    Its taken from a black website, but clearly as you can see its trying to get black people angry.
    Thats interesting……

  232. pecan — on 23rd October, 2005 at 7:07 pm  

    no way… thanks for the generlisation

  233. neo — on 23rd October, 2005 at 7:31 pm  

    my god, you’re still at it!! surely even you have something better to be doing… dont you have any mates you can occupy yourself with?

  234. Kulvinder — on 23rd October, 2005 at 7:43 pm  

    great thread, etc.

  235. Jay — on 23rd October, 2005 at 7:47 pm  

    The propaganda has been issued and now two of the leading races are heading for a collision.

    If the rapist is/was white then what happens to the black community? Do Ligali think they can do the same to all the whites businesses? No! Hell No! White police will put a stop to that.

    The agenda is that all ethnic races conflict with eachother thus the control flows freely and directly to the politicans (who are also white…duh!), more laws ;- hoodie ban, ASBO’s…etc, more money for ‘em too.

    Asians and Blacks fighting is exactly what the Whites want, the same ol’ –Divide and Conquer rule –applied everywhere since the beginning of (white)man.

    The thing is that not all of us realise yet that the same thing happened in Africa during the Edi Amin regime when the dictator wanted all of the asians businesses deceased so he/they can control the flow all the money. The real person behind Edi Amin was the British Empire.

    Sad to think that the ‘Ligali’ community haven’t evolved since then.

    But to fight every asian business is like a little bit mad, not realising that most Asian business have Black workers too and there jobs might be at risk.

    Bet you didn’t think like this before…..?

  236. _Zain_ — on 23rd October, 2005 at 10:52 pm  

    Thankfully, the wankers above, only speak for a very small retarded number of ill-educated xenophobes.

    All of the hardline Blacks, Jews, Muslims & Christians, do fuck all to propagate the indoctrinated scriptures of peace.

    You’re only a drop in the ocean.
    Thankfully, you are just passing through, rather like a cumbersome turd.

    Pricks.

  237. badnewswade — on 23rd October, 2005 at 11:03 pm  

    Jesus Fucking Christ!

    Terrorists, tornadoes, and now race riots! Am I glad I left Brum and the horrible University of Perry Barr to become a dole scrounger!

    What the fuck is wrong with you guys over there in Betaville? Is it the pollution or something, driving you all mad like ancient Romans? Has God Himself had one of His hissy fits and took it upon Himself to wreck our Second (rate) City?

    I think you all need to chill out, and maybe move to another town. Birmingham sucks ass, there’s nothing to do except drink and you can’t even get couscous or proper noodles there. Come down south and try that shit, we’ve got proper Uzi-toting Yardies, none of your pellet gun nonsense. Our drug dealers could have your drug dealers, etc, etc. We don’t just have sexual assaults; we have proper serial killers dumping bodies in the lake. There have been no reprisals against the trucker community yet, though. And the Kurds and Iraquis have duked it out in clubland once already; literally finishing what us Westerners and Saddam started. How’s that for ethnic strife?

    Face it, you guys are only kicking each other’s heads in ’cause Birmingham is a boring shit hole full of arseholes students and racial bigots. Whereas Bristol is a thriving metropolis of dope dealing, art students, mad killers, art students, socios, psychos, and art students. And we’re only a small city; you can get around by pushbike if you have to. Try that in Mega-City Two, you’ll still be cycling through some identikit suburb when you finally keel over from exhaustion (and being struck by lightning thirty-two times, blown up, shot with a pellet gun, set on fire, raped, and murdered a couple of times by the sound of things)

    In the words of the poet, I’m sorry if any of you are from Birmingham. I’m not sorry if you’re offended, I’m just sorry… you’re from Birmingham.

  238. badnewswade — on 23rd October, 2005 at 11:49 pm  

    Give it a rest you Brummie tossers. The rest of the country laughs at your misfortunes and your ridiculous accent alike.

    “A small nuclear device was exploded in the centre of Birmingham by them terrorists today. The explosion aggravated fault lines deep within the earth and caused an earthquake measuring 9.9 on the Richter Scale which utterly devastated the entire West Midlands urban area turning it into massive, smoking hole in the ground. ”

    “There was worse to come, however, as immediately afterwards a tsunami hit the city, inundating it under fifty feet of water. This was followed by tornadoes which destroyed anything else which might have been standing but also had the effect of sucking up the water and depositing it in the sea. ”

    “After this a rampaging crowd of looters, psychopaths and management consultants crawled forth from the ruins and went totally insane in a nine-day rampage of violence, extortion, rape and murder that made New Orleans look like a gathering of the Women’s Institute. ”

    “On seeing the devastation, the Prime Minister remarked on the tenacity and courage of the citizens of Birmingham. “The city didn’t look like it has changed one bit.” he burbled. Indeed, BBC News is proud to report that residents are going on as if nothing has happened, and the economy and population of the city remains unaffected by the explosion and subsequent natural disasters and civil disturbances. “The city remains completely unchanged- it’s amazing”, said noted expert Frank McTosser…”

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