‘Tis the season to bash Muslims?


by Sunny
11th December, 2006 at 12:51 am    

Maybe there is an opportunity here for an enterprising group of Muslim students to declare they hate Christmas so the tabloids can finally find someone to point fingers at. They could then make some nice money doing print and television interviews. At least everyone’s happy and the Sun’s campaign could begin to make sense.

Maybe some other students could argue that, by virtue of demanding a ban on Christmas trees, tinsel and even Santa Claus, they are trying to bring back the original Christian meaning behind this secularised festival? But that might go right over the head of most Sun readers.

That is, erm, me in a short article in today’s Media Guardian having a sarcastic dig at the tabloids for their annual idiotic headlines that proclaim ‘Muslims want to ban Christmas!’ In Friday’s Guardian G2 Oliver Burkeman did a brilliant job of taking apart these seasonal urban myths. At Wordblog, Andrew is less forgiving, while Robert has different angle entirely. Happy Christmas suckers, my flight leaves in the morning!


              Post to del.icio.us


Filed in: Humour






240 Comments below   |  

Reactions: Twitter, blogs
  1. Global Voices Online » Blog Archive » South Asia: Muslims and Christmas in the UK

    [...] Pickled Politics points to an article by one of the authors in the Guardian. “That is, erm, me in a short article in today’s Media Guardian having a sarcastic dig at the tabloids for their annual idiotic headlines that proclaim ‘Muslims want to ban Christmas!’” Watch out for the 187 comments for the post! Neha Viswanathan [...]




  1. Robert — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:39 am  

    Actually, I think the reverse is true. Why are all these Christians wanting to impose their narrow conception of Christmas onto me? Now THAT really is Political Correctness Gone Mad. They have forgotten that the true meaning of these winter festivals is family, feasting, and renewal for the coming year. Its a centuries old tradition that they should not mess with….

  2. sonia — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:42 am  

    happy christmas sunny! don’t miss your flight now..

  3. Refresh — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:50 am  

    Enjoy your trip. Perhaps you’ll allow me to respond on THAT thread when you return – might mean re-opening it.

    Happy Christmas (assuming you celebrate it, otherwise Season’s Greetings)

  4. bikhair aka taqiyyah — on 11th December, 2006 at 2:59 am  

    Sunny,

    Safe flight and dont be looking all Asian on the plane.

  5. bikhair aka taqiyyah — on 11th December, 2006 at 3:01 am  

    …Sorry did I say Asian, I meant Muslim. My bad my fabulously intergrated Hindu and Sikh friends.

  6. Nyrone — on 11th December, 2006 at 4:51 am  

    I have a lot of Muslim friends, and NONE of them have any problem with Christmas.

    In fact, the first time they even heard of this phenomena was from the recent news stories running it.

    I can’t be the only person who thinks this ‘group’ of people that claim to be offended by Christmas don’t actually exist. Where are they if they are real? They dont bloody exist! I wish the stupid scare-mongering tabloids would give it a rest for a change, no-one wants to ban Christmas!

  7. Desi Italiana — on 11th December, 2006 at 7:08 am  

    “I have a lot of Muslim friends, and NONE of them have any problem with Christmas.”

    Same here. I find “Maybe there is an opportunity here for an enterprising group of Muslim students to declare they hate Christmas” as utterly ridiculous.

    “They have forgotten that the true meaning of these winter festivals is family, feasting, and renewal for the coming year.”

    Christmas (Dec 25) was transposed onto the Roman PAGAN festival which celebrated solstice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas). Everybody knows that Jesus wasn’t born on Dec 25; infact, he was an Aries like me, and I like to believe the theory which argues that he was actually BORN ON THE SAME DAY AS ME (http://www.eclipse.net/~molnar/).

  8. Bert Preast — on 11th December, 2006 at 9:27 am  

    Blame idiotic civil servants, you have to admit the tabloids love christmas.

  9. chris y — on 11th December, 2006 at 9:54 am  

    I find “Maybe there is an opportunity here for an enterprising group of Muslim students to declare they hate Christmas” as utterly ridiculous.

    Um, joke?

  10. Chairwoman — on 11th December, 2006 at 10:02 am  

    Robert – We also celebrate Yule :-)

  11. Leon — on 11th December, 2006 at 10:07 am  

    Have a good flight Sunny, and keep your eyes peeled for dem snakes.;)

  12. Douglas Clark — on 11th December, 2006 at 10:35 am  

    Sunny,

    Have a good holiday, you certainly deserve it. If Clairwil is right, cosmic ordering and all that, by the time you get back the world will be perfect!

    Shit! Then what’ll we all do?

  13. Ravi Naik — on 11th December, 2006 at 11:21 am  

    There was a popular religion called Mithraism
    practiced in the roman world around 1 AC. The interesting thing about this religion is that it has some eerie similarities with Christianity. For instance, 25th of December was also the day when Mithra was born.

    The other interesting thing, is that some scholars say that Mitra/Mithra originated from India and Iran.

  14. soru — on 11th December, 2006 at 11:29 am  

    As I understand it, some pious Muslims do have a ‘problem’ with halloween (as it is pretty blatant paganism/polytheism, the equivalent of a lot of ‘folk muslim’ stuff in India/Pakistan that modernist Islam rejects). Of course, that just means they quietly don’t go along to Halloween-related events, any more than they would go see a Harry Potter film.

    So if it really was fundamentalist Muslims behind any of the media scare stories, it would be the pagan trappings of xmas, Santa Claus and holly and feasting, that were seen as most objectionable. Instead, it’s the explicitly christian donkeys, child and angels that supposedly cause the problem.

    Of course, as the guardian article points out, 99% of the war on Xmas is a myth. I suspect the other 1% is self-righteous low-level council officials, probably of the vaguely neopagan ‘womyn’ variety.

    See: Mists of Avalon, and other romantic fantasy novels with the general theme of Christianity = Patriarchy = Bad.

  15. E. Scrooge — on 11th December, 2006 at 11:30 am  

    Well I loathe, abominate, detest, abhor, and hate Christmas. Apart from that, I’ve nothing against it. The only good things about it are the preChristian pagan bits that were carried over such as drunkenness, gluttony and lechery.

  16. Jai — on 11th December, 2006 at 11:49 am  

    Have a great trip, Sunny — I expect you’ve left for your holiday already by now, but I thought I should send you a quick message just in case you check this thread while you’re away.

    With regards to the other matter we discussed offline, I’ll do my best to put something together over the next couple of weeks and send it to your usual email account, and since it’s not time-sensitive you can pick it up when you come back.

    Once again, have a great time :)

  17. Sid — on 11th December, 2006 at 11:58 am  

    I wish it could be Christmas every day!

  18. Amir — on 11th December, 2006 at 12:08 pm  

    IMPORTANT

    If there were any messages sent using MY name last night, delete them.

    My prick housemate was drunk and so decided to start an online fight using MY name and MY email. I’m now in a state of total, unmitigated panic. Apparently, he’s been to several blogs, doing the same.

    This computer isn’t mine. And I’m paying the price for it.

    Please notify me on the Clairwill’s open thread if you see anything dodgy.

    Amir. :-(

  19. Bert Preast — on 11th December, 2006 at 12:25 pm  

    Amir doing a Bishop of Southwark. :D

  20. sonia — on 11th December, 2006 at 12:54 pm  

    well i have to say the vast majority of people don’t have a problem with a holiday which as Robert pointed out is all about family + feasting and all those other things.. HOWEVER i have come across a few party poopers in my time who have said silly things to me ( on receipt of xmas cards) how dare you say that to me – you should have bought a Seasons Greetings card. (oops) and then followed it on by a rant on saying Merry Christmas to Muslims etc. I was like..’sheesh! take it easy man – why are you so bitter?’

    so clearly some such people do exist somewhere. maybe they’re just jealous cos they don’t get a holiday for eid or something? all i can say is we know how to do it in india and bangladesh – holidays for pujas, xmas and eid – for EVERYONE! who’s going to complain about holidays? only idiots…

  21. sonia — on 11th December, 2006 at 12:54 pm  

    18 + 19 = ha ha ! :-)

  22. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 12:55 pm  

    They should set aside a date in the calendar specifically for Muslim-bashing — people are generally too busy at Christmas doing other things to really get into the spirit of it. You know, kind of like Guy Fawkes day — which also celebrates the twarting of an act of fundamentalist terror — except it could be something along the lines of Forest Gate day and little children could go around breaking into the houses of Muslims; or July the 21st, and kids could be encouraged to buy those little cap guns and fire them at effigies of Jean Charles de Menezes. Except it would inevitably end up getting commercialised and become an excuse for the greetings card industry to cash in.

  23. Sid — on 11th December, 2006 at 12:58 pm  

    I wish it could be Asas-bashing day every day!

  24. Thortz — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:00 pm  

    Isn’t it scary just how easy it is for tabloids to whip up a fuss over an imagined enemy? No matter how many Birmingham officials shout “we don’t call Christmas Winterval!” no-one believes them. It seems everyone wants to feel they are fighting back against oppressors, and if they don’t have any they need to invent them.

    Anyway, if ‘Tis the season to bash Muslims, does this mean we’ll have to stop bashing them the rest of the year? Damn. ;-)

  25. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:02 pm  

    Sorry that should be thwarting not twarting, which is the Irish version.

  26. Chris Stiles — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:05 pm  

    Andrew Rilstone “fisking” of the story.

  27. Jagdeep — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:07 pm  

    That’s a good idea Anas. There could be a day like in Borat ‘The Running of the Jew’, where people chase a man dressed as a suicide bomber and shoot him with a water pistol. Then have fireworks and stuff.

  28. sonia — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:09 pm  

    “You know, kind of like Guy Fawkes day — which also celebrates the twarting of an act of fundamentalist terror”

    funny that. last year didnt they burn an effigy of the houses of parliament at some council-sponsored bonfire night in victoria park or sth? that was pretty anarchistic i thought for a council!

    ive noticed you get a bit defensive about muslim bashing anas – why is that? ;-) *chortle*

    thortz – interesting blog.

  29. Jagdeep — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:10 pm  

    Seriously though, it is plain that the Sun and Mail and Express have an agenda and they will concoct ‘PC Madness’ in order to push that agenda. The extent to which it contributes to demonisation of minorities can be argued, but it doesnt do anything to address the real issues in a mature way. It’s a sly way to demonise, you have to admit, they are very intelligent and crafty. It almost makes me want to congratulate them.

  30. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:11 pm  

    Hey sonia if people were bashing Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, Christians, etc, I would be standing up for them just the same.

  31. Sid — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:19 pm  

    I wish it could be Anas-bashing day every day!

  32. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:21 pm  

    Go and bash your bishop, Sid.

  33. Thortz — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:53 pm  

    Anas – what if they were bashing atheists?

    Sonia – thanks, I need encouragement

    Let me be the first to offer everyone early but happy Pongal greetings.

  34. Electro — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:56 pm  

    32 comments by atheists/non-Christians on the true meaning of Christmas.

    For the Sunny the *future is brown*, and so it may surprise him and warm his soft-racist cockles to know that 75% of the world’s Chirstians are non-white, and that Christianity is the world’s fastest growing religion.

    How many lapsed Sikhs have embraced The Savior in just the past 12 months?

    And I invite ALL Muslims to explore Christ ( the real one) a little further by attending Christmas mass and by learning something about the holiday.

  35. sonia — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:57 pm  

    Right you would Anas! :-) it’s hardly as if ‘Muslim’ is the uppermost thing on your mind..right ol’ buddy?

    thortz – yeah man – i like your about page – ive been very lax with my blogging as ive been so BUSY! but have a whole list of blogs i want to be linking to and im definitely linking to yours. good stuff.

  36. sonia — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:58 pm  

    like anyone actually cares about religion…

  37. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 1:58 pm  

    Very thoughtful of you Electro.

  38. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 2:01 pm  

    Anas – what if they were bashing atheists?

    Sure, if you like.

  39. soru — on 11th December, 2006 at 3:16 pm  

    One thing noone has pointed out so far: the plot of Terry Pratchett’s Hogfather is all about excessively rational people (‘auditors’) wanting to kill off belief in the Discworld version of Santa Claus.

    Hogfather is the big Xmas presentation for Sky One, the thing driving dish sales.

    Sky One is owned by Rupert Murdoch.

    The Sun is owned by Rupert Murdoch.

    Christmas is probably owned by Rupert Murdoch.

  40. Ravi Naik — on 11th December, 2006 at 3:17 pm  

    “My prick housemate was drunk and so decided to start an online fight using MY name and MY email. I’m now in a state of total, unmitigated panic. Apparently, he’s been to several blogs, doing the same.”

    Er… how would one spot the difference?

  41. Electro — on 11th December, 2006 at 3:18 pm  

    Well, why not take the opportunity Christiams presents to highlight the treatment Christians undergo in many areas of the world.

    Much of that oppression is, of course, concentrated in, but not restricted to, the Islamic world.

    China and India are problematic for sure, but countries across the Muslim world systematically marginalise and sometimes brutalise their Christian minorities.

    And trust me, there are no conferences to explore issues and instances of “Christianophobia”.

    If Christians in Pakisatan, say, enjoyed even half the privileges Muslims in the UK have they’d be in 7th heaven.

    There is quite a concerted war against Christmas in the UK, by the way, and it has an awful lot to do with private sector interests and profit margins rather than with bigotry.

  42. Leon — on 11th December, 2006 at 3:23 pm  

    @ soru, I didn’t bother because my Terry Pratchett references have gone unnoticed in the past.

    Reading Thud! at the mo, alot of commentary on community groups/ethnic tensions in that, well worth a read if you like his stuff.

  43. mirax — on 11th December, 2006 at 3:24 pm  

    >>Let me be the first to offer everyone early but happy Pongal greetings.

    Too early thortz but thanks and same to you and yours. Tamil nastikan eh?

  44. mirax — on 11th December, 2006 at 3:31 pm  

    >>and that Christianity is the world’s fastest growing religion.

    Unfortunately that is true and even worse, it is fucked up fundamentalist types like the pentecostalists who are picking up the slack. I truly loathe and despise a great number of the evangelical “christian” people I meet.

  45. sonia — on 11th December, 2006 at 3:47 pm  

    Ha – what a bunch of ‘communalists’ some of us are.

    “If Christians in Pakistan, say, enjoyed even half the privileges Muslims in the UK have they’d be in 7th heaven.”

    hell – if ANYONE ( apart from few select people i.e. the dictators in power and their mates) enjoyed the privileges PEOPLE In the UK do – they’d be in seventh heaven.

  46. sonia — on 11th December, 2006 at 3:48 pm  

    i meant – if anyone in pakistan – up above

  47. soru — on 11th December, 2006 at 4:04 pm  

    @leon: yes, Thud! is the best-written critique of the NGN you will find.

    Note how the honest copper’s goal is to prevent violence in ‘his’ city, which he does by negotiating a compromise between dwarf/troll ‘community leaders’ and the evil (but very very smart) overlord.

    It’s probably something to do with the basic pre-modern assumptions of fantasy – you talk directly to the Dwarf King, you don’t get to write an article read by all dwarven citizens.

  48. Zak — on 11th December, 2006 at 4:17 pm  

    Sunny wasn’t that last season?

  49. Electro — on 11th December, 2006 at 4:17 pm  

    Despite your efforts to deflect from the issue, the problemes remain, Sonia.

  50. ZinZin — on 11th December, 2006 at 4:23 pm  

    Bashing Muslims isn’t just for Christmas its an an all year round extravaganza.

  51. Leon — on 11th December, 2006 at 4:41 pm  

    @ Soru, critique of the NGN? Huh? I thought it (so far, I’m about half way through) was more in line with NGN thinking…

  52. sonia — on 11th December, 2006 at 4:51 pm  

    ho ho electro – i wasn’t deflecting the issue – more like highlighting additionalissues.

    you ‘box’ people are all alike aren’t ya! god you’re everywhere. get a bee in your bonnet and that’s it..

  53. Leon — on 11th December, 2006 at 4:53 pm  

    Sonia’s in the not liking being a box box.:P

  54. sonia — on 11th December, 2006 at 5:46 pm  

    :-) he hehh

    yah im in the wild animal box

  55. soru — on 11th December, 2006 at 5:48 pm  

    ‘in line with NGN thinking’

    nah, it is more vintage Blairite.

    Look at the plot:

    1. an authority figure (Vimes, with Vetinari’s backing) wants to ‘do the right thing’ in respect to a conflict between two cultures (Trolls and Dwarfs).

    2. he knows little about the cultures, so initially blunders. Even though he has some Trollish/Dwarfish colleagues in the Watch, they are deracinated, so not much help.

    3. some of the community leaders are pure bad guys, but others help him out by providing access to the cultural info he needs to operate in their communities.

    The underlying theme is information=power, that knowledge of those communities is a rare and exotic thing that is not easily attained, worth trading for.

    If the book followed the NGN philosophy, 90% of the plot would not be needed as it would be stuff any competent policeman would already know, or could easily find out by asking.

  56. raz — on 11th December, 2006 at 6:20 pm  

    Whatever problems Christian’s living in Muslim countries have pales into comparison with the shocking treatment that Christians bestow upon one another, as evidenced by the millions of Christians murdered, raped and tortured in Rwanda, Congo, Uganda, etc. Wonder why this kind of sickening persecution of Christians does not outrage Mr Electro?

  57. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 6:24 pm  

    Don’t forget the bloody history of South America, and the widespread murder of bishops and clerical figures (eg,Archbishop Romero).

  58. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 6:27 pm  

    I send all my neighbours Christmas cards every year, and do I get one Eid card in return? Nope.

  59. Ravi Naik — on 11th December, 2006 at 6:49 pm  

    “Whatever problems Christian’s living in Muslim countries have pales into comparison”

    So, your best defense of countries like Pakistan is to compare them with African countries in the midst of civil and ethnic war?

    I think Electro is wrong to assume that the West is any better than the Muslim world because it is Christian. It is better because it is secular, and guarantees freedom of religion. One has not to go very far to see the atrocities of the Catholic Church when it ruled Europe.

  60. ZinZin — on 11th December, 2006 at 7:04 pm  

    Anas
    Your neighbours must be Islamophobes. As are those Neo-Zio-Nazis at Hallmark as i have never seen an eid card. Ever.

  61. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 7:12 pm  

    No, they’re just inconsiderate.

  62. raz — on 11th December, 2006 at 7:14 pm  

    “So, your best defense of countries like Pakistan is to compare them with African countries in the midst of civil and ethnic war?”

    Who is defending anything? All persecution is wrong, whether it be Muslims persecuted in India, Christians in Pakistan, or whatever. The point is, that selective outrage is never going to be acceptable. Muslims who complain about Muslims being oppressed in Palestine but ignore the atrocities in Dafur, Hindus who complain about discrimination in Bangladesh but ignore the sickening treatment of their own dalits, Christians who complain about religious freedom in Saudia Arabia and ignore millions of Christians murdered in Africa – all are hypocrites of the highest order. Put your own house in order first, before pointing fingers at others.

  63. Ravi Naik — on 11th December, 2006 at 7:19 pm  

    “No, they’re just inconsiderate.”

    Are you sending a religious card celebrating the birth of Christ? If so, are you sure all your neighbours are devout christians? Because if not, that would be inconsiderate.

  64. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 7:25 pm  

    What are you implying Ravi, that I’m in danger of inadvertently proselytising for Christianity through my choice of Christmas card?

  65. Ravi Naik — on 11th December, 2006 at 7:39 pm  

    “Who is defending anything?”

    I thought you were saying that christians in muslim countries have it better than those who live in the middle of a civil and ethnic war.

    “Put your own house in order first, before pointing fingers at others.”

    So, following your logic… are muslims, say from Pakistan, hypocrites of the highest order when they accuse anyone of muslim-bashing because Pakistan does not give freedom to christians? Doesn’t make sense to me, raz.

  66. William — on 11th December, 2006 at 7:40 pm  

    All this is just another example of the daft transferability of ideas in the form of myths which can be leaped on. It is interesting that the tabloids are the first to jump. It reminds me of a woman I met who had visited a certain community organisation. She was incredulous that she saw “a group of Rastafarians” playing dominoes. The dominoes were coloured white with black spots. As if the players were making some statement.

    There was a pagan guy who once went around wishing freinds and myself a “Happy Mid Winder Festival”. Hang on my mind is making the links here. Yes! it must be creeping paganism that is set to take over the world!!

  67. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 7:48 pm  

    Anyone read Gary Younge’s excellent piece in the Guardian today?

    Apparently we might actually learn something from the American attitude towards cultural difference, by understanding to differentiate between the cultural autonomy of different and varied groups, and cultural segregation. It’s a hard message to push in a country where integration is a one way process in which minority groups must conform to the practises and beliefs of White Brits (and where White Brits’ unwilingness to integrate barely registers even though it is predominant in many communities), and individualism is OK as long as you’re not too individual.

  68. Electro — on 11th December, 2006 at 7:49 pm  

    Anas, perhaps the card manufacturers are afraid. There’s been fatwas-a-plenty when it comes to giving Valentines Day greetings, just as an example.

    A belated “Happy Eid” to you!

    Raz, you,re responding to situations of Muslim oppression of non-Muslim minorities with instances of tribal conflict between clans of the same faith. Rwandans didn’t kill other Rwandans in a religeous conflict; they killed each other out of ethnic hatreds.

    Big difference.

    That’s an apples and oranges argument that only serves to fudge the core issue.

    Pakistan’s treatment of its religeous minorities is official state policy, inspired by Koran and hadith, and designed expressly to confer second-class status upon them.

    How can you evoke something as trite and superficial as “selective outrage” when Islam central, AKA Saudi Arabia, denies ALL religeous freedom to non-Muslims?

    Not only that, but S.A. is supposed to provide inspiration and guidance; the followers of Islam are enjoined to visit Mecca at least once in their lifetimes.

    Do you draw inspiration, Raz, from the intolerant religeous treatment the more than 6,000,000 non-Muslims living in Saudi Arabia endure every day?

    Your answer, of course, runs along the lines that Saudi policies are an internal affair, not islamic…….while conveniently neglecting to mention that all internal Saudi affairs are closely regulated by Islam.

    Nothing can match Saudi intolerance and the fact many Muslims enthusiastically pass through the place at least once in their lifetimes speaks volumes, as well.

    When South Africa, for instance, was under apartheid, I refused to go there on holidays because such a system was against my principles.

  69. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 7:55 pm  

    Err, Saudis are pretty intolerant to non-Wahabbi strains of Islam too, Electro.

  70. raz — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:01 pm  

    Sorry Electro, but millions of Christians are dead because of the shocking barbarity of their fellow worshippers of Christ.I couldn’t care less about the reasons for these savage acts – the fact is this: Christians are going to be judged on their actions, not what they say their religon is about. Until Christians like yourself take a stand against the ideology of fanaticism, rape and mass murder which has blighted the image of Christianity in Africa and other places, your words will ring hollow. The civilised world is waiting for Christianity to confront its own extremists. You better be up to the task.

    A shocking story from the Congo (a mostly Christian country):

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15704030/site/newsweek/

    My heart bleeds for the countless poor Christian women raped and violated in such a hideous way. I trust the likes of Electro will fight for justice for these women and to clear the name of their religon blackened by such despicable acts.

  71. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:02 pm  

    I hear bin Laden is pretty pissed off with the house of Saud too. The UK and the US are big fans, though. We love to sell them arms, and give them huge kickbacks in return.

  72. raz — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:10 pm  

    I agree Anas. Saudi is the source of so much of the evil in the Muslim world – and yet the West has its head up the Saudi Royal families arse. Shameful.

  73. Zantac — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:11 pm  

    It’s a hard message to push in a country where integration is a one way process in which minority groups must conform to the practises and beliefs of White Brits (and where White Brits’ unwilingness to integrate barely registers even though it is predominant in many communities

    One million children of mixed race in Britain suggests that plenty of white people are integrating with people of other races and backgrounds. In my own family I have black and Indian relatives through marriage.

    Time to get that chip off your shoulder, and brush the hatred for white British people into the sea Mr Anas.

  74. Zantac — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:16 pm  

    Apparently we might actually learn something from the American attitude towards cultural difference, by understanding to differentiate between the cultural autonomy of different and varied groups, and cultural segregation.

    Unlike in the UK, American Muslims don’t take to the streets demanding the deaths of authors, or the beheading of cartoonists, or, most crucially, nor do they engage in suicide bombing in their own nation. In short, they are integrated well into American society. Most Muslims are integrated well into British society, as are most Sikhs and Hindus and African Caribbeans. Unfortunately for you, there is not really a problem amongst mainstream British people for the hyphenated identities of Jewish-British, British-Indian, Black-British or whatever. Your carictaure of British society is demonstrably wrong and motivated more by malice than a desire to reconcile differences, defined by hate rather than love.

  75. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:21 pm  

    Zantac

    To quote Mike Marquesee

    Despite the statistical reality that ethnic minorities are on the receiving end of abuse and discrimination from their fellow citizens and the State, they are blamed for a failure to integrate. Facts on the ground, however, do not bear out the self-segregation thesis. According to the latest census, the indices of residential segregation for all ethnic minority groups fell between 1991 and 2001. The index of isolation — measuring how likely people are not to know people from other groups — is highest for white Christians, followed by white people with no religion. According to CRE studies, 95 per cent of white Britons do not have a Black or Asian friend and one in four would not want to live near them; in contrast, 60 per cent of Muslims have non-Muslim friends.

    The popularity of the BNP proves that white reluctance and unwillingness to integrate is still pretty widespread — and still a monumental problem in a multicultural, multiracial society such as Britain is. It’s just that negative white attitudes don’t get much airing, whereas the attitudes of some Muslims seem to get wall to wall coverage. Funny that, innit? I don’t hate white people, some of my best friends are White.

  76. Zantac — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:27 pm  

    Anas, the idea that the BNP and the attitudes of their supporters are not reviled by the mainstream of white British society is contemptible and hysterical. But all you have is hysterics; no nuance, no truth, no perspective, just contempt for white British society. The negative attitudes of Muslims gets an airing because we are in a situation in which some ‘negative’ Muslims blow up people on the Underground, so it is not funny at all.

  77. Zantac — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:29 pm  

    According to CRE studies, 95 per cent of white Britons do not have a Black or Asian friend and one in four would not want to live near them; in contrast, 60 per cent of Muslims have non-Muslim friends.

    94% of British society is white. These statistics reflect the disproportions in society as a whole.

  78. Don — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:32 pm  

    raz,

    Normally I’m always ready to have a pop at christianity (one of those aggressive atheists the bishops are currently fretting about) but I think there is a flaw in your argument.

    ‘I couldn’t care less about the reasons for these savage acts …’

    There is a difference between a person who happens to be an adherent of religion x behaving vilely, and someone who behaves vilely in the name of religion x. So, yes the Lord’s Resistance Army is acting in the name of christianity – although no-one outside their deranged band agrees – and we should hear more from the churches. To be fair, as is occassionally pointed out to me by miffed christians, the christian churches do put in a lot of time and resources to relieving immediate suffering in Africa.

    If I ran amok with a machete the headline should properly read ‘Middle aged man runs amok with machete’; if I charged into a gaggle of archdeacons screaming ‘There is no god, and Dawkins is his nemesis’ they would properly read ‘ Crazed atheist runs amok with machete’.

    I wouldn’t for a moment dispute christianity’s body count, but you can only place blame at religion’s door, and call upon co-religionists to get denouncing sharpish, if the perp is acting from a religious belief. Which is often enough the case, but can’t be assumed.

    However, I’d concede that if someone’s primary identity were their religious identity then it would be relevant to mention it even if the crime were not primarily religiously motivated.

  79. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:33 pm  

    Zantac, do you think the more times you mention suicide bombings the more likely I’m going to miss the fact that you’re inable to answer my central point, White reluctance is a bigger hindrance to integration than that of other communities? Are you John Reid? The negative attitudes of Muslims are referred to extensively when discussing the failure of multiculturalism, and in that context, obviously White separatism deserves to be acknowledged, since by any measure it’s a far wider problem. No?

  80. Don — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:41 pm  

    ’95 per cent of white Britons do not have a Black or Asian friend’

    Wouldn’t that mean that for every White Briton to have a Black or Asian friend, every Black or Asian Briton would need to have twenty five or so white friends?

    And in many areas, a couple of hundred?

  81. Zantac — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:42 pm  

    Anas I have addressed your points, as much as you keep misreading or failing to read them, I cannot do anything about it. Fundamentally, yours is a flawed and deeply erroneous position that goes beyond merely acknowledging ‘white separatism’, it involves the demonisation of ‘white brits’ themselves:

    integration is a one way process in which minority groups must conform to the practises and beliefs of White Brits

    Given the large degree of white intermarriage and adaptation with people of different races and backgrounds in Britain, this is demonstrably false. It is no wonder that you are in perpetual rage if the premise of your existence is that there are legions of ‘white brits’ out there, daggers at the ready, waiting to force you to ‘conform to the practises and beliefs of White Brits’. Muslims are free to practice their religion. Who is telling you to conform to anything you dont want to do?

    Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, African Carribeans and a significant proportion of Muslims are well integrated into British society. Unfortunately, some Muslims are not very well integrated. Hopefully your kind of caricaturing hate ridden attitude towards white British scoeity will dissipate in time and that will change.

  82. Zantac — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:49 pm  

    Yes Don the figures would work out something like that when worked out proportionately.

  83. Leon — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:52 pm  

    @ soru, you may have a point, I er should probably read the rest of the book before commenting further.;)

  84. Zantac — on 11th December, 2006 at 8:58 pm  

    integration is a one way process in which minority groups must conform to the practises and beliefs of White Brits

    This is total nonsense in other demonstrable ways. Quite apart from the large scale integration of white Britons with people of other races and religions, the presense of ONE MILLION mixed race children (a figure that is set to grow exponentially), the great efforts made by British society at a local and national level to accept diversity and freedom of religion, the legislation outlawing racial discrimination, the every day person-to-person relationships in which Black and Asian people are part of the fabric of Britain shows that in no way can integration be described as ‘one way process’. It is clear that ‘White Brits’ as Anas calls us, have made efforts to ensure that integration is a two way process. Continuing efforts to ensure equality of opportunity prove this. Just because things are not perfect doesnt mean efforts have not been made and are conscientiously being made. The truth is, the depiction of ‘White Brits’ as enforcing ‘one way integration’ is an absolute travesty of the truth. It is a caricature and an assertion made in hate not in love.

  85. Bijna — on 11th December, 2006 at 9:08 pm  

    Imagine muslims becomming nice people.
    The tabloid journalists would be out of jobs!

    My experience is that muslims are more agressive during christmas. Which is partly caused with streets being more
    empty of non-muslims, who are sitting around the christmas tree, while muslims keep roaming the street looking for trouble, as they always do.

  86. Ravi Naik — on 11th December, 2006 at 10:16 pm  

    “integration is a one way process in which minority groups must conform to the practises and beliefs of White Brits”

    Rather than just parroting the voices inside your little communal box, why don’t you give us an example of such practices that “White Brits” impose on you?

  87. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 10:35 pm  

    94% of British society is white. These statistics reflect the disproportions in society as a whole.

    It’s 92% actually. The discrepancy of 3% (from the 95% figure) may not seem much, but given your immoderate excitment over the existence of 1 MILLION mixed-race inhabitants of these isles, you should pay some attention to that figure. Secondly, if you take into consideration population density in the UK, clustered around cities where the non-white population also tends to be concentrated, the nature of social networks, so that the 95% figure suggests that the very very few white people who do have non-white friends only have one — which isn’t very integrated –you begin to see why I’m question the received wisdom. Couple this with the other two statistics I quote, the index of isolation (which is highest among Christians), and the ONE IN FOUR WHITE PEOPLE who didn’t want to live near “them” according to the poll quote by Mr Marquesse(as well the major success of white segregationist party the BNP in several areas of the country), and you have quite a bit of evidence in favour of my contention. All of this paints a different picture to that to which we’re usually subjected in the media — the scare stories about Muslims coming here, and not integrating — because I’m not saying that white people are unwilling to integrate per se, it’s just that if you’re looking to blame a group of people for the failures of multiculturalism, maybe it’s unfair to concentrate on Muslims.

    Who is telling you to conform to anything you dont want to do?

    Well, if I was a Muslim lady who wanted the freedom to choose whether to wear a veil or not, I’d be singling out quite a few politicians who’d fit that description.

  88. Anas — on 11th December, 2006 at 10:47 pm  

    Rather than just parroting the voices inside your little communal box, why don’t you give us an example of such practices that “White Brits” impose on you?

    Well, Ravi, given that the attitudes of substantial numbers of White Brits are weighted towards segregation, that’s the whole import of the current calls for greater integration from the media and government and their singling out of Muslims.

  89. soru — on 11th December, 2006 at 11:27 pm  

    According to CRE studies, 95 per cent of white Britons do not have a Black or Asian friend

    That’s pretty misleading, given the actual survey question:

    Thinking about your close friends – say, the ten or twenty people, other than relatives, to
    whom you feel closest – which of these statements applies to you?
    All my close friends are white 54%
    Almost all my close friends are white 23%
    Most of my close friends are white 17%
    Roughly half my close friends are white 5%
    Most of my close friends are from ethnic minorities 1%
    Almost all my close friends are from ethnic minorities 0%
    All my close friends are from ethnic minorities 0% 5%

    If you have 20 friends, with 6 non-white, which is double what you’d expect from picking people at random, then you count as part of the 94%, as that is not ‘most’.

  90. Anon+1 — on 12th December, 2006 at 12:16 am  

    This “Anti christmas” thing…. seems utter nonsense to me. Its just a ploy by some businessmen, if we are told christmas is going down the pan, everyone will try to “rebel” and buy even more decorations etc.
    Seriously.. who on earth could be offended by christmas?

  91. Amir — on 12th December, 2006 at 12:32 am  

    People,
    I’m feeling very emotional today, so could I just repeat post 18 to clarify my position:

    IMPORTANT

    If there were any messages sent using MY name last night, delete them.

    My prick housemate was drunk and so decided to start an online fight using MY name and MY email. I’m now in a state of total, unmitigated panic. Apparently, he’s been to several blogs, doing the same.

    This computer isn’t mine. And I’m paying the price for it.

    Please notify me on the Clairwill’s open thread if you see anything dodgy.

    Amir. :-(

    [According to my repentant housemate, the “fake Amir” went on a late-night rampage and insulted Israeli Jews, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Hindus, disabled kids (no joke) and Moslems. Worst of all, my housemate is a Sikh, and so took the liberty of poking fun at people in turbans. Some of you may find this faintly amusing, but it's no laughing matter – I feel so, so paranoid. Fuck.]

  92. Amir — on 12th December, 2006 at 12:35 am  

    People,
    I’m feeling very emotional today, so could I just repeat post 18 to clarify my position:

    IMPORTANT

    If there were any messages sent using MY name last night, delete them.

    My prick housemate was drunk and so decided to start an online fight using MY name and MY email. I’m now in a state of total, unmitigated panic. Apparently, he’s been to several blogs, doing the same.

    This computer isn’t mine. And I’m paying the price for it.

    Please notify me on the Clairwill’s open thread if you see anything dodgy.

    Amir. :-(

    [According to my repentant housemate, the “fake Amir” went on a late-night rampage and insulted Israeli Jews, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Hindus, disabled kids (no joke) and Moslems. Worst of all, my housemate is a Sikh, and so took it upon himself to poke fun at people in turbans. Some of you may find this faintly amusing, but it's no laughing matter – I feel so, so paranoid. Fuck.]

  93. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 12:44 am  

    I wish your housemate posted here instead of you, Amir, he sounds like a laugh.

  94. Clairwil — on 12th December, 2006 at 12:45 am  

    Amir,
    That sounds like a nightmare. Have you been swamped with angry e-mails?

  95. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 12:46 am  

    That’s pretty misleading, given the actual survey question

    Fair enough, next time I’ll have more of an incentive to check up my references properly.

  96. Ravi Naik — on 12th December, 2006 at 12:48 am  

    “Well, Ravi, given that the attitudes of substantial numbers of White Brits are weighted towards segregation, that’s the whole import of the current calls for greater integration from the media and government and their singling out of Muslims.”

    The reason why everyone is singling out Muslims is that they are the noisiest ethnic group, not only in Britain, but also in Spain, France, Holland, Denmark. Multiculturism is supposed to ease the cultural shock but there is an unwritten rule that you must integrate and assimilate: your culture and people are the whole of Britain, not just the people from your village back home. Multiculturism when abused has the potential of creating nations within a nation.

    There will always be racists who will say that we don’t belong in this country, but they are a minority and that is not an excuse not to integrate.

    Does acknowledging that we have a problem with radical Islam in this country constitute muslim-bashing?

  97. infidel — on 12th December, 2006 at 1:11 am  

    Hilarious alternative alternative xmas message at the begining of this radio podcast

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/hostpage.aspx?host_id=943

  98. sonia — on 12th December, 2006 at 1:31 am  

    anas – where on earth do you live?! sounds like you live on the isles of god knows where. have you ever been to London? Probably not been to a bar – going by your religious notions. If you did – you’d see plenty of ‘white’ and ‘non-white’ people all hanging out together.

    by golly. it really is starting to sound as if the problem is you don’t have any ‘white’ friends yourself. It doesn’t sound like you can do – seeing as you keep referring to ‘them’ as some kind of Other.

    but in any case that is besides the point. If you were interested in sociology and social psychology anas – you’d have worked out by now that the whole issue with groups is that they are about conformity. CHeck out your asian groups and muslim groups – do you think they demand any less conformity/homogeneity from their members? all this fuss about tradition and patriotism that groups and countries have – it’s all over the place. forget the ‘ethnic minority’ slant for a minute. yeah societies expect us to conform – some of us don’t like it. some conform more than others. forget the hijab – if i dont wear matching socks – there’s always such an outcry. if i go outside my house without bothering to check my clothes aren’t inside out – again – people come up and insist on saying ‘hey your clothes are inside out’. Who said we all had to wear our clothes the ‘right way’ and who decided it was the right way? what constitutes social’norms’ obviously have a lot to do with conformity!¬ see what i’m getting at? this ‘white brit’ thing you’re gassing on about – well whatever. don’t think that if you grew up somewhere as the ‘majority’ ethnicity you’d have managed to get away from the conformity issue. you bring up the hijab. you think conformity doesn’t play a part there? the standards may be different in different places ( i.e. yes hijab required – or no hijab please) but the social processes are pretty much the same.

    Sigh.

    and
    “Well, Ravi, given that the attitudes of substantial numbers of White Brits are weighted towards segregation”

    sorry that’s complete rubbish. again – where the hell are you getting that info from? surveys? why? do you not know any ‘white brits’ ?? frankly i haven’t met a single person who said they wanted segretaion – who are these people? are you talking about BNP supporters? you do seem to live a skewed life. And as an outsider – it’s easier for me to see these things in a less skewed way. Unless you’ve been hanging out with some KKK types i really don’t know where you’re getting all this paranoia from.

  99. sonia — on 12th December, 2006 at 1:32 am  

    societies expect their members to conform. that’s what ‘traditions’ are about – end of story.

  100. Refresh — on 12th December, 2006 at 2:10 am  

    Amir, not sure how to react to your predicament, perhaps if you told us which blogs we could make a judgement whether it represented an improvement or not.

    In any case the ‘Amir’ post on the Sunny Hundal CiF piece sounded pretty interesting. Can you or your housemate respond to my question?

  101. Kismet Hardy — on 12th December, 2006 at 11:41 am  

    My ex has gone flipmode that I’ve found love with another and is banning me from seeing my kids this christmas

    It’s because I’m muslim, I think

    It’s good to have something to blame :(

  102. Sid — on 12th December, 2006 at 12:01 pm  

    Sorry to hear that Kismet bhai. If you ever need them to be abducted from momma and bundled off to Dhaka, I’m there to help. ;-)

  103. Kismet Hardy — on 12th December, 2006 at 12:45 pm  

    I’ve just successfully stopped myself from getting deported back there. Why’d I wish it on my kids? Thanks though. It’s all character building. And the optimism my mother breastfed me is still running through my veins despite all the N-methyl-D-aspartic acid I keep feeding it :-)

  104. Electro — on 12th December, 2006 at 1:00 pm  

    I couldn’t care less about the reasons for these savage acts.

    Then what’s your argument, Raz?

    Can you not see the difference between killing someone out of religeous conviction and murdering simply to have access to someone else’s resources or farmlands?

    The killings in Central Africa are ethnic, tribal and economic in nature, whereas the atrocities happening in Iraq and elsewhere in the islamic world are tainted, characterised and motivated by religeous chauvinism.

    That is shameful and it should be stopped.

    You couldn’t care less about reasons and causes, Raz, but yet you’d be the first to chirp “root causes” when radical islamists blow up ionnocents based on a narrow and deformed interpretation of religion.

    When there are no root causes you invoke ‘em, yet when those same root causes are present you deny their existence.

    In your world “root causes” are faith-specific.

    You should work a little harder on being consistent, Raz.

  105. Kismet Hardy — on 12th December, 2006 at 1:05 pm  

    “Can you not see the difference between killing someone out of religeous conviction and murdering simply to have access to someone else’s resources or farmlands?”

    Does oil count as someone else’s resources?

    In which case America is innocent. Silly Raz

  106. raz — on 12th December, 2006 at 1:18 pm  

    ““Can you not see the difference between killing someone out of religeous conviction and murdering simply to have access to someone else’s resources or farmlands?”

    No – murder is murder is murder. And right now a lot more Christians are being murdered at the hands of their fellow brothers than are dying at the hands of other religions. Which is why we, in the civilised world, are waiting for you Christians to do something about the barbaric violence which is massacring your religion, instead of whining about the relatively minor problems Christians are facing in other countries.

    I am sick and tired of religious fanatics like Electro, who are happy to enjoy the tolerance of the UK while ignoring the plight of millions of poor, innocent Christians being slaughtered by their fellow worshippers. A sickening show of hypocrisy, and one which Jesus will look down on and condemn. Shameful.

  107. Katy — on 12th December, 2006 at 1:28 pm  
  108. Katy — on 12th December, 2006 at 1:29 pm  

    For “race” read “religion”. Or whatever.

  109. Zantac — on 12th December, 2006 at 1:37 pm  

    Anas

    It’s not immodertae excitement to point out that there are one million mixed race children in Britain, a number that is set to grow massively, in order to repudiate your pathetic and deeply egregious caricature of ‘White Brits’ as a race of people who have done, and actively do, nothing to facilitate integration in Britain. I have pointed out that your vicious and ignorant caricature of ‘White Brits’ doing nothing to set the conditions to faciliate integration between races and religions in Britain as a belligerent and mischievous travesty of the truth and a slap in the face of so many good and decent people across time.

    I have said it once and I will say it again – you represent the absolute worst, the most abject of all chip-on-the-shoulder, half witted, contempt drenched ignorance about ‘White Brits’ and white British society, and by extension to your sheer ignorance, to the millions of blacks and Asians in Britain who have integrated well and become as British as fish and chips whilst maintaining their religion and culture.

    I have just read sonia’s post number 98, and have nothing to add to the conprehensive smackdown of you.

  110. Kismet Hardy — on 12th December, 2006 at 1:50 pm  

    Amir, I read everything you said. On every forum going. How could you say those things about Bangladeshis? How could you Amir? How could you ruin my life in this way?

    Tee-hee. Only yanking your chain. But post 91/92 is exactly how I feel every morning after a heavy night before. I salute your paranoia

    But I still think it was you

    SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE

    Tee-hee

  111. Chairwoman — on 12th December, 2006 at 2:18 pm  

    Kismet – Where?

  112. Ravi Naik — on 12th December, 2006 at 2:22 pm  

    “No – murder is murder is murder. And right now a lot more Christians are being murdered at the hands of their fellow brothers than are dying at the hands of other religions.”

    You are contracting yourself, raz. If murder is murder, it doesn’t really matter what god you pray, and nor should we be quiet because people involved do not pray to our god, or have our set of beliefs. This is communal politics at its worst.

    You have as much responsability about what is going on in Africa in a muslim or christian country as I do, so stop your bullshit rethoric.

  113. Kismet Hardy — on 12th December, 2006 at 2:41 pm  

    Chairwoman – Here?

  114. Sid — on 12th December, 2006 at 2:49 pm  

    Kismet – Where here?

  115. Kismet Hardy — on 12th December, 2006 at 3:10 pm  

    Sid – There here?

    (I wish I knew what we’re talking about)

  116. Electro — on 12th December, 2006 at 3:22 pm  

    Raz, what is the carb and calorie value in a single portion of your righteousness?

    Minimum daily requirement?

    When will the laws in majority Islamic countires allow religious minorities, particularly Christian minorities, to live as though they were equal citizens?

    No matter how much you attempt to deflect from this shameful situation the question still stands.

  117. Sid — on 12th December, 2006 at 3:22 pm  

    What did Amir write about Bangladeshis and where? We’re intrigued.

  118. Katy — on 12th December, 2006 at 3:28 pm  

    The last time I checked, neither Raz nor any other Muslim in Britain was personally responsible for way in which Muslim regimes abroad treated their minorities, and the same goes for Christian commentators in relation to the misbehaviour of Christian regimes.

  119. Zantac — on 12th December, 2006 at 3:37 pm  

    I find all this rhetoric along the lines of quoting oppression of minorities and inequality in Muslim countries in comparison to Britain only relevant when engaging in a debate with a Muslim who denigrates liberal secular democracy and posits Islamic systems as a superior alternative. In a discussion with anyone who does not do that it is irrelevant. Let’s take it as a given that our society treats minorities better than Muslim countries. Throwing that in the face of a British man or woman who happens to be Muslim in an ad hoc manner is not only wrong, it is offensive.

  120. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 12th December, 2006 at 3:49 pm  

    But just fine if they are banging on about FP or the oppression of the police.

    TFI

  121. sabinaahmed — on 12th December, 2006 at 3:50 pm  

    Zantac

    Unfortunately there are many people who hold views,which are ir-rational and should be challenged. I felt really depressed after listening to this mornings phone in on the BBC`s Asian network. The subject was that should the Asian young men marry girls here or go to pakistan. The views expressed were that pakistani girls are betteras they dont “answer back”,if they are from a poor family then they can be “kept under control”, if they dont know the language then they will “stay home while the husband can date other women,as a man is not satisfied by one woman”. I have just written a long post on their message board too.
    That there are young men with such attitudes towards women in a western country and in the 21st century is amazing and depressing.
    I take such encouragment from PP that here are such positive,broad minded and articulate posters who challenge prejudices. But my heart sinks when i hear discussions such as broadcast this morning.
    As i have said elsewhere, NGN should not remain a document which preaches to the converted,but it should reach those who are still living in the dark ages and need enlightenment.

  122. Ravi Naik — on 12th December, 2006 at 4:01 pm  

    “Let’s take it as a given that our society treats minorities better than Muslim countries.”

    Let’s take it as a given that secular democracies tend to treat religious minorities better than theocratic regimes.

  123. Kismet Hardy — on 12th December, 2006 at 4:14 pm  

    Sid re: 117 I’m only going on what Amir said in 91. The rest is just putting 2 and 2 together and getting 665 (the neighbour of the beast)

  124. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 4:30 pm  

    I think the replies from Sonia/Zantac above are fundamentally misreading me.

    I’m simply not making the argument they’re taking me to make, which is that the majority (or most) of the White population of this country are fundamentally opposed to integration (Zantac I’m pretty sure doesn’t even read what I’ve written) — I certainly don’t think that. What I am questioning are some of the assumptions that inform the coverage the popular media gives to race relations, and integration in this country, as well as the agendas of the politicians who use their platforms to single out a particular community, i.e., Muslims, as to blame for the lack of integration in this country.

    If you feel that the emphasis on Muslims is fair in that context, and that it doesn’t mask a reality in which white separatism (as manifested for example by the very substantial success of the BNP, as well as the anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, poison spewed out in much of the popular press) plays a greater role in destabilising the “multicultural project” than the continued supposed intransigence of Muslims, then that’s your lookout. Keep on believing the hype.

  125. sonia — on 12th December, 2006 at 4:43 pm  

    just to note: i’m not at all interested in having a ‘personal’ go at anas ( though he may think otherwise!)- just the views he was expounding. i hear that sort of thing all the time from all sorts of people – and it strikes me that it’s the same sort of paranoia that makes some people think that if you’re muslim you’re going to be a terrorist, or that because there are terror attacks – everyone is a terrorist. all that sort of paranoid thinking just doesn’t seem to be very positive – imho.

  126. sonia — on 12th December, 2006 at 4:46 pm  

    ok anas. perhaps i am misreading you.

    in any case the ‘popular media’ is usually generally skewed towards someone or something anyway. i mean the whole ‘Left/Right thing? the Media love to polarise things – let’s not help them out by actually letting it make us think of other persons out there as ‘Other People’.

  127. sonia — on 12th December, 2006 at 4:55 pm  

    i don’t think you’re being fair anas by imagining that by what i was saying – that i imply the emphasis in the media on ‘muslims’ is fair – how do you read that into what I said? Unless you’re doing a ‘Bush’ style if you’re not ‘with me’ i.e. agreeing with you – i’m automatically taking the ‘opposite’ line. As if life is so simple there are only ‘two’ choices! frankly my opinion is the whole race relations thing is complete crap – there’s a no. of individuals who may think there are ‘problems’ – and they are to be found all over the place – and most people are doing just fine. the media have their own agenda. the clash of civ thing is a myth. Of course, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy though – that’s of course the irony of all this ‘race relations’ crap.

  128. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:05 pm  

    i don’t think you’re being fair anas by imagining that by what i was saying – that i imply the emphasis in the media on ‘muslims’ is fair – how do you read that into what I said?

    I’m personally getting quite confused by this conversation now.

  129. Bert Preast — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:11 pm  

    Anas wrote: “I’m simply not making the argument they’re taking me to make, which is that the majority (or most) of the White population of this country are fundamentally opposed to integration”

    You’re entirely mistaken. White people are opposed to having to whites having to integrate. And they have a point.

  130. Bert Preast — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:12 pm  

    Oops, just read Anas’ post properly. Ignore Bert.

  131. Bert Preast — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:15 pm  

    Anas wrote: “If you feel that the emphasis on Muslims is fair in that context, and that it doesn’t mask a reality in which white separatism (as manifested for example by the very substantial success of the BNP, as well as the anti-Muslim, anti-immigrant, poison spewed out in much of the popular press) plays a greater role in destabilising the “multicultural project” than the continued supposed intransigence of Muslims”

    Aha, got you this time. It’s bombs and threats are the number one cause of destabilising things, not white seperatists or tabloids.

  132. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:17 pm  

    Not “things” Bertie, “integration”.

  133. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:18 pm  

    What bombs or threats are you referring to, July the 7th or coallition terrorism in Iraq?

  134. ZinZin — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:28 pm  

    Its always Islamophobia with you Anas? Muslims as victims do me a favour.

  135. Bert Preast — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:28 pm  

    It doesn’t take the brains of an archbishop to guess?

  136. Bert Preast — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:30 pm  

    Anas #132 – Integration? How do white Brits have to integrate?

  137. ZinZin — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:35 pm  

    Its supposed to be a light hearted blog and the Anas starts whining and look what happens.

  138. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:44 pm  

    lol! Bert, that’s exactly the White separatist attitude I was referring to above.

    In case you haven’t noticed, Bert, there’s a large population of non-white people in the UK who have just as much right to call themselves British as anyone else. Now there are a number of people (mostly of a white ethnicity) who find it difficult to recognise this fact, who like to hark back to the halcyon days when brown faces were scarcely to be seen and who cannot accept that the notion of what it means to be British changed irrevocably with the influx of large numbers of immigrants over the last century. Integration is after all a two-way process.

  139. Kismet Hardy — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:49 pm  

    “Integration is after all a two-way process.”

    Nah, sex is a two-way process. Bit of give, lot of take, both parties share a fag afterwards. Integration is about one trying to blend in and be part of another, otherwise it’s called merging or, as I like to call it, an orgy.

  140. Ravi Naik — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:56 pm  

    Interesting though is that people like Anas use the BNP as some sort of excuse for the lack of integration and alienation, and the BNP uses radical muslims as an example of how multiculturism has failed. Isn’t it funny how the two extremes help each other?

  141. Kismet Hardy — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:57 pm  

    I mean gang bang. Dwarf gang bang.

  142. sonia — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:58 pm  

    Yah ive got xmas shopping to do and mince pies to tuck into now so that’s me toddling off!

  143. sonia — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:59 pm  

    140 – Ravi Naik – spot on! Precisely. you say things so well -:-) there was me beating about the bush and being all long-winded about things – but yah – in a nutshell..

  144. Bert Preast — on 12th December, 2006 at 6:04 pm  

    Anas – I referred to “white Britons” only because you referred to “white seperatists”.

    How is integration a two way process? Britons aren’t wanting or needing to integrate into islam, are they?

  145. ZinZin — on 12th December, 2006 at 6:23 pm  

    continued supposed intransigence of Muslims, then that’s your lookout.

    There are other examples of Muslims failing to integrate such as the Rushdie affair. Iqbal Sacranie was made a community gatekeeper and given a knighthood for his opposition to free speech and tacitly condoning fundamentalism. Britains white liberal elite are happy to bend over backwards to accomodate the likes of Sacranie.

    Anas Muslims have shown up the failings in MC more than any other racial or religious group.

  146. Bert Preast — on 12th December, 2006 at 6:37 pm  

    Exactly, we’ve done our bit for integration long since, and so has everyone else. Except one group. I’d like Anas to tell me what more we should have done, exactly?

  147. Don — on 12th December, 2006 at 6:43 pm  

    Kismet,

    Never change. Even when they stick the wires into your head, never change.

    Anas,

    I think a little reminder, for those who missed it, that Soru neatly torpedoed your initial premise in #89 is in order. Other than that, I’m puzzled by what you mean by ‘integrate’ in the context in which you are using it.

    The fact that the UK has one of, if not the, highest rates of mixed-race marriages in the world would suggest some fairly active integration.

    The fact that we have a small but intransigent core of racists and bigots indicates that integration is far from complete.

    But what of the majority middle-ground. What specifically are you asking them to integrate into, and how? When politicians ask minorities to integrate it is difficult to pin down what they mean, but I find it even more difficult to see that you mean anything at all.

    Of the 54% of the white population who count no-one from an ethnic minority among their friends, some will be racist pin-heads. What do you reckon? 10%? More? Less?

    Some will live in places where demographics make it unlikely the opportunity to form such friendships will arise in the natural course of events. About 20% of the UK population live in rural areas. How exactly would you suggest they set about integrating without annoying the hell out of the 1% or 2% of their ethnic minority neighbours?

    Practical suggestions, please, for the remaining 25%.

  148. Bert Preast — on 12th December, 2006 at 6:49 pm  

    “How exactly would you suggest they set about integrating without annoying the hell out of the 1% or 2% of their ethnic minority neighbours?”

    Maybe they could open a restaurant, and the locals could pop in for a taste of foreign cultures? I doubt that’d annoy anyone overmuch.

    stereotyping. /o\

  149. Zantac — on 12th December, 2006 at 6:58 pm  

    Anas print out Don’s post above and Ravi Naik’s post here:

    Interesting though is that people like Anas use the BNP as some sort of excuse for the lack of integration and alienation, and the BNP uses radical muslims as an example of how multiculturism has failed. Isn’t it funny how the two extremes help each other?

    Print them out and read them over and over again until you understand them.

  150. jmohammed — on 12th December, 2006 at 7:05 pm  

    Why does everyone try to defend the insanity of Islam. Religion is to blame for most wars… Islam is currently responsible for genocide in the Sudan, revisionist history in Iran, the blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites, religious intolerance in all muslim nations, countless deaths of innocents all over the globe all in the name of a suspect prophet. Where is the peaceful religion that some speak of… it does not exist.

  151. raz — on 12th December, 2006 at 7:18 pm  

    It is obvious to anyone with a brain cell that the UK treats people far better than Congo, India, Saudi Arabia or Israel. Religious nutcases should be thankful of the freedoms they possess in this country, instead of whining about the ‘persecution’ they face abroad. Until I see these Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc showing as much interest in condemning their own crimes as they do whining about other religions, I am not going to take these fools seriously. Nothing pisses me off more than people with a victim complex – and today it seems most religions are in a contest to see who is the ‘most oppressed’. Pathetic.

  152. Jesus Christ — on 12th December, 2006 at 7:19 pm  

    Oi!

    Give it a rest!

    Just enjoy yourselves. Even the Muslims. All of you just calm down. I bring peace and goodwill to all men and women.

    Chill out.

    Drink some wine.

    Enjoy my birthday.

    Shake hands with a Sikh.

    Hug a Hindu.

    Kiss your family members.

    Say ‘hosannah!’ to a Muslim if you see them.

    Pinch the bottom of a woman in a burqa, you know they probably just want a bit of saucy attention.

    But please, stop fighting, for Nebuchadnezzar’s sake!

    Oy Vez, if it’s not one thing it’s another. What am I, chopped liver?

    And if anyone has Mel Gibson’s contact details, could you pass my e-mail onto him please? I have a bone to pick with him about something.

    nazareth_gangster@yahoo.co.uk

    Thanks. And, uhhh, peace and love to you all.

    ~JC~

  153. Bert Preast — on 12th December, 2006 at 7:22 pm  

    “Kiss your family members.”

    You see it’s badly phrased stuff like this that causes centuries of suffering.

  154. Desi Italiana — on 12th December, 2006 at 8:05 pm  

    Don’t you all ever get tired of such redundant discussions? You guys swear that religion is the all defining factor in a person’s identity, politics, social relations, everything. Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, Christians. Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, Christians. Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Muslims, Muslims, Muslims, Muslims, Muslims, Muslims, Muslims……Jesus Christ!

  155. Desi Italiana — on 12th December, 2006 at 8:09 pm  

    “Until I see these Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc showing as much interest in condemning their own crimes as they do whining about other religions,”

    Why do you continue to frame people based on their religous background? Why can’t you simply say, “Until I see PEOPLE showing as much interest in condemning ALL crimes as they do whining about other CRIMES…”

    Do you really think that the average person who is remotedly “Hindu” or in any way affiliated/identifies him/herself as a Hindu only sees and cares about its own imagined community? No. The only people who do this are a minority of whacky nutcases who are unfortunately the most vociferous and get a lot of undeserved attention in the media.

  156. Desi Italiana — on 12th December, 2006 at 8:14 pm  

    “Why does everyone try to defend the insanity of Islam. Religion is to blame for most wars”

    Stupid assertion. Sorry. If you care to look a little bit at world history, you’ll see that the major defining factors of wars are economic and political. Even the Spanish Inquisition was not wholly religious, there were political and economic dynamics as well.

    It’s not suprising comments like this crop up on a forum where religion is the focal point of any discussion and religion is the single tool used in a debate.

  157. Desi Italiana — on 12th December, 2006 at 8:31 pm  

    “Why does everyone try to defend the insanity of Islam. Religion is to blame for most wars…Where is the peaceful religion that some speak of… it does not exist.”

    Really, you need a reality check. What accounts for genocide that doesn’t happen in countries where the majority is Muslim? What accounts for large scale wars that take place in countries that are not majority Muslim? And do you really think that the Middle East makes up the largest fraction of the globe and wars?

    How do you explain, say, the Indo-China war, for example. Or wars in Latin America? Are you going to blame Catholicism? What about massive genocide in North and South America, Austrailia, etc?

  158. raz — on 12th December, 2006 at 8:37 pm  

    desi, try reading what i actually wrote first. Here let me make it simple for you:

    “Religious nutcases should be thankful of the freedoms they possess in this country, instead of whining about the ‘persecution’ they face abroad. Until I see these Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, etc showing as much interest in condemning their own crimes as they do whining about other religions, I am not going to take these fools seriously.”

    Nowhere was I talking about the average person, I am specifically referring to the brand of nutcase (like Electro) who spends all his time attacking other religions.

  159. Desi Italiana — on 12th December, 2006 at 8:56 pm  

    “Don’t forget the bloody history of South America, and the widespread murder of bishops and clerical figures (eg,Archbishop Romero).”

    They didn’t get killed because they are Catholic, they got killed because a number of them (including nuns) were documenting and protesting the atrocities that governments/paramilitaries/dictators were meting out to people.

    ***********************

    Hmmm, just read more comments. Everybody’s jumping on Anas, but no one really addressed one thing he said (at least, I don’t think; may have missed it, though). He said that neighborhoods are ethnically segregated. Does anyone know whether this is true? If you tell me that the British all live in mixed neightborhoods, in contrast to the US, hell, I’m moving to the UK!

    Also, people are using London as an indication of multiuculturalism and integration. I’m not sure that using a huge metropolitan, global city necessarily means that integration exists over and out in all of the UK. Big cities in almost any country have large numbers of different groups. For instance, you see lots of races in downtown Chicago, San Francisco, and NYC. That doesn’t mean that when everyone goes home, they are all living in mixed neighborhoods, or that the entire US is well integrated.

    *****************

    “Apparently we might actually learn something from the American attitude towards cultural difference, by understanding to differentiate between the cultural autonomy of different and varied groups, and cultural segregation.”

    Er…. are we talking about the same country? :)

    Don’t worry, you’re not missing anything. We’re more or less in the same boat as you folks in the UK when it comes to this kind of stuff.

    Anyway, I’m off to buy myself a couple of chocolate chip cookies.

  160. Desi Italiana — on 12th December, 2006 at 9:02 pm  

    Raz:

    “desi, try reading what i actually wrote first. Here let me make it simple for you”

    I read what you wrote, you don’t have to “simplify” it for me. You’re missing my point and you did not address it. In your other posts on this thread, you as well as most of the commentators (sorry that I singled you out) continue to religionize people (I just made up a word).

    ” I am specifically referring to the brand of nutcase (like Electro) who spends all his time attacking other religions.”

    Electro is a nutcase, not a “Christian” nutcase. His/her comments are inconsistent and hypocritical, period.

  161. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 9:14 pm  

    RE:post #147

    Not so quick there Don, he may have damaged my argument, but he has far from torpedoed it. For conformation of this, check out the press release the CRE gave for the statistics Soru posted (and which I admittedly got wrong). The press release has an interesting title for a start,“CRE survey shows little integration among UK’s white majority community with ethnic minorities”. And at the risk of raising the ire of those who don’t like me posting huge chunks of text from sites I link to, here are a few lines from the release:

    The CRE launched the findings of a YouGov survey today showing that the UK’s white majority population is integrating less with other communities than the non-white population.

    Most white people (94%) have few or no ethnic minority friends, while nearly half (47%) of non-white people, say most or all of their close friends are white.

    Commenting on the findings, Trevor Phillips, CRE chair said:

    It surprised me the extent to which the majority community still does not really know minority communities. When it comes to race and religion this clearly shows that we are dealing with a difference of which most people in this country have no first-hand experience.

    Therefore it is not surprising that they can be misled about blacks, Gypsies and Muslims, and it’s not surprising that for no apparent reason they can become hostile and racist.

    Key findings

    The CRE commissioned YouGov to conduct a survey among white and non-white Britons to test a number of current issues concerned with ethnic and religious differences.

    YouGov questioned a total of 2,871 electors throughout Britain between 21 and 25 June, 2004. Of these, 2065 were people who had previously described themselves to YouGov as “white” and 806 who had described themselves as non-white. The data was combined (with the non-white sample downweighted to reflect its numbers within Britain as a whole) The white and non-white samples were themselves weighted to ensure that each group within each group reflected its numbers in the electorate as a whole.

    Thirty-one per cent of non-white people, but only 1% of white people, say most or all of their close friends are non-white. This is one of the few areas where there are clear differences among ethnic minority groups. Black and, especially, mixed race Britons are more likely to have a significant number of white friends that Asian Britons.

    Just over half of all white people (54%) say all their close friends are white; 46% say at least one is non-white. Older white respondents are more likely to have white-only friends: for this group the proportion is 60%, compared with 43% among under 30s.

    Most people, both white and non-white, have friends who are practicing Christians; only 23% of whites and 20% of non-whites do not.

    I’m amused that I’m considered an extremist. An extremist in what? And no I’m not talking about integration into Islam when I talk about the reluctance of the White community to integrate, I explicitly told you what I meant in post 138.

  162. Chris Stiles — on 12th December, 2006 at 9:19 pm  


    Does anyone know whether this is true? If you tell me that the British all live in mixed neightborhoods, in contrast to the US, hell, I’m moving to the UK!

    No. But ISTM that the sort of segregation that happens these days is mainly down to a minority of people with mild preferences for living in neighbourhoods where they are surrounded by the familiar [like Schelling's chessboard model], with a small number of people with very strong preferences for doing the same.

  163. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 9:23 pm  

    The definition of an “extremist” seems to be anyone who holds an unpopular point of view and is willing to argue for it.

  164. ZinZin — on 12th December, 2006 at 9:36 pm  

    Anas do you have any friends at all?

  165. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 9:47 pm  

    :( not really zinzin

  166. soru — on 12th December, 2006 at 9:59 pm  

    I’m still not sure that the survey show anything other than the fact that the UK overall is 92% ‘white’ (2001 census), whereas London is 60% ‘white british’, and that the chairman of a London-centric organisation found the first basic fact a bit surprising.

    For a Londoner, if you see a street scene with 30 white people and one black, you think the casting director screwed up, but in a lot of cities that is actually the norm.

    On the other hand, I would bet that a lot of people in the survey were fibbing about just how close their black/asian friends actually were…

  167. Don — on 12th December, 2006 at 10:25 pm  

    Anas,

    As you were good enough to direct #161 specifically to me, then I think ;

    ‘I’m amused that I’m considered an extremist. An extremist in what? And no I’m not talking about integration into Islam when I talk about the reluctance of the White community to integrate, I explicitly told you what I meant in post 138.’

    belongs elsewhere, as I never suggested either. And if #138 is explicit, then we are using the word in very different ways.

  168. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 10:30 pm  

    Sorry was responding to Ravi Naik.

  169. jmohammed — on 12th December, 2006 at 10:36 pm  

    any one named after a prophet who wants his followers to blow up children, kill all who do not believe in him and profess to be peaceful while screaming to kill a caroonist should be lined up and soaked in pigs blood till they drown.

  170. jmohammed — on 12th December, 2006 at 10:38 pm  

    London would be 100% Anglican if they followed the Muslim rule of killing anyone who does not kneel to allah. The only way there is Muslim countries is by the sand niggers killing everyone else.

  171. jmohammed — on 12th December, 2006 at 10:46 pm  

    Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi was a saint. If Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s revisionist seminar is accepted then it is easy to say that Iran was a better place when ruled by Pahlavi… there is no proof to the contrary. Just as there is no proof that Stalin ordered anyone to be killed. Just as there is no proof that there was ever a prophet Mohammed other than a sadistic hashish addict that wrote a few misguided lines in between fondeling little girls.

  172. jmohammed — on 12th December, 2006 at 10:54 pm  

    Mohammed was not a prophet and the koran is the idle chatter brought about by a delusional mind that distorts history and preys on the weak minded. We all know that the world would be better off if all the jews and arabs would be wiped off the map by a nuclear war. The book of revelation does not fortell the end of the whole world just the idiots in the middle east who have been killing each other because they look too much alike.

  173. Desi Italiana — on 12th December, 2006 at 10:57 pm  

    #169,170,171:

    Yeah, yeah, yeah….

    Doesn’t PP’s spam system work?

  174. Desi Italiana — on 12th December, 2006 at 10:58 pm  

    “We all know that the world would be better off if all the jews and arabs would be wiped off the map by a nuclear war.”

    What the fuck?

  175. Anas — on 12th December, 2006 at 10:59 pm  

    Where are the moderators?

  176. jmohammed — on 12th December, 2006 at 11:00 pm  

    imagine a middle east covered in a beautiful sheet of nuclear glass… the hopeful effect of a massive nuclear strike… and the logical result of a madman like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad being allowed to lead Iran to the brink.

  177. Don — on 12th December, 2006 at 11:01 pm  

    ‘I would bet that a lot of people in the survey were fibbing …’ Hah!

    But I noticed it excluded family. In-laws don’t count?

    anas,

    Those numbers are intriguing, aren’t they? 70% of those classifying themselves as non-white said that at least half, up to all, of their close friends were white. OK, only 6% of those classifying themselves as white mirrored that. But only 1% of white people said all their friends were non-white? Only? Bearing in mind the 96/4 ratio, specific local situations, and socio-economic factors, I don’t see how the numbers in any way support your argument.

  178. Desi Italiana — on 12th December, 2006 at 11:02 pm  

    Anyway–

    Chris Stiles,

    Thanks for responding. So what you are saying is that the majority of Brits, regardless of their ethnicity, live in mixed neighborhoods…correct? (Also,what does “ISTM” mean?)

    I’m really intrigued now, and I am going to see if I can dig up any demographic study done on housing and neighborhood composition. If anyone else has info, please do include the links.

  179. Don — on 12th December, 2006 at 11:07 pm  

    Don’t feed.

  180. Don — on 12th December, 2006 at 11:08 pm  

    #173

    Apparently.

  181. Leon — on 12th December, 2006 at 11:18 pm  

    Follow Don’s advice #179…

  182. Clairwil — on 12th December, 2006 at 11:23 pm  

    Imagine a world where one couldn’t use one’s PC when pissed.

  183. Ravi Naik — on 12th December, 2006 at 11:36 pm  

    “That doesn’t mean that when everyone goes home, they are all living in mixed neighborhoods, or that the entire US is well integrated.”

    A lot of neighborhoods in London are pretty diverse, and a few others have a disproportionate number of members of one ethnic group. However I think it is somewhat disingenuous to look at how mixed a neighborhood is to determine race relations, specially when minorities are a small fraction of the population.

    For me, this is like asking someone how many ethnic minority friends they have to determine if they are racists/bigots. For most people it is a matter of circumstance, shared interests and cultural affinity.

    The bottom line is that you cannot force people to live in place X or Y to have a perfect neighbourhood mix. The only thing that you should expect is tolerance and respect, nothing else.

  184. Desi Italiana — on 12th December, 2006 at 11:44 pm  

    “However I think it is somewhat disingenuous to look at how mixed a neighborhood is to determine race relations, specially when minorities are a small fraction of the population.”

    It is equally disingenuous to look at a big city like London and see a lot of ethnicities walking around, then deduce that therefore, race relations are ok.

    But the reason why I am interested in housing and ethnic segregation is because its’ not free of politics and economic policies, at least here in the US. It’s not like anybody of any ethnicity can go live in any neighborhood they want. There’s a thing called “red lining.” So I am asking what’s the situation in the UK (not only in London).

  185. Desi Italiana — on 12th December, 2006 at 11:55 pm  

    Also, other factors: landlords may not rent out to certain prospective tenants, especially if they do not have documents (as in Italy, particularly in big cities like Rome and Milan); housing and urban planning, the “flight to the suburbs” phenomenon, the dichotomy of “good neighborhoods” vs “bad neighborhoods” and “ghettos”, etc. There are issues of funding allocations to certain districts, and such.

    Anyway, I’m going to try and look it up.

  186. Ravi Naik — on 13th December, 2006 at 12:11 am  

    “It is equally disingenuous to look at a big city like London and see a lot of ethnicities walking around, then deduce that therefore, race relations are ok.”

    Of course. So rather than looking at how mixed the neighbourhoods are, perhaps one could look at race/hate crime numbers, or ask people how British do they feel as a measure of integration and tolerance.

    “It’s not like anybody of any ethnicity can go live in any neighborhood they want.”

    There are laws in this country against redlining when the criteria is based on ethnic origin.

  187. Ravi Naik — on 13th December, 2006 at 12:53 am  

    “The definition of an “extremist” seems to be anyone who holds an unpopular point of view and is willing to argue for it. “

    I do apologise: it is unfair to characterise you as an extremist. But I feel that you parrot a lot of radical views that do little for building good relations between different ethnic groups.

    Building those bridges is not an intractable problem, Anas. And the reason is that we have a lot more in common than our perceived cultural differences.

    However, when we define ourselves simply by religion, by our race, our ethnic origin then we are emphasing our differences more than anything else. And we risk having people with low scruples or a hidden political agenda to define that identity for us.

  188. Refresh — on 13th December, 2006 at 2:56 am  

    Desi

    “If you care to look a little bit at world history, you’ll see that the major defining factors of wars are economic and political. ”

    Its always good to see you around.

  189. Desi Italiana — on 13th December, 2006 at 6:24 am  

    OK, found a study on ethnic segregation in schools and neighborhoods. Published in 2005. Abstract:

    “We provide evidence on the extent of ethnic segregation experienced by children across secondary schools and neighbourhoods (wards). Using 2001 Schools Census and Population Census data we employ the indices of dissimilarity and isolation and compare patterns of segregation across nineethnic groups, and across Local Education Authorities in England. Looking atboth schools and neighbourhoods, we find high levels of segregation for the different groups, along with considerable variation across England. We find consistently higher segregation for South Asian pupils than for Black pupils. For most ethnic groups children are more segregated at school than in their neighbourhood. We analyse the relative degree of segregation and show that high population density is associated with high relative school segregation”

    http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:xrCaHn4-aw4J:sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/cp/CASEpaper101.pdf+ethnic+segregation+housing+UK&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

    Also available in pdf:http://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/cp/CASEpaper101.pdf

    Really like how they state “Our Discussion Paper series is available free of charge.” Not like in the US where most academic studies and papers are found only by subscription…privatization of knowledge.

  190. Desi Italiana — on 13th December, 2006 at 6:36 am  

    “While there is nothing to compare with the scale and deprivation of the North American ghetto, black and minority ethnic clusters in Britain are well defined. The clusters vary in size from single blocks of flats on social housing estates to extensive tracts of owner occupied nineteenth century terraces or back-to-backs ininner areas, typical of northern cities such as Oldham, Bradford or Leeds.Discussions of black and minority ethnic segregation all too readily conjure up images of ‘problem areas’ and ‘people as problems’. Many of the associations are negative; high levels of social deprivation, poverty and exclusion, occasional ‘no-go’ areas which are difficult to police, culturally exclusive populations who appear not to favour integration, and threats of civil disorder. Less is said of the positive attributes of minority ethnic clustering and the social capital embedded within these areas. The explicit level of concern expressed by central and local government over the persistence of minority ethnic segregation has fluctuated over the decades (Smith, 1989; Phillips and Karn, 1991; Phillips, 2006). However, following the 2001 ‘race riots’ in some northern English cities, there was a sudden media and political interest in the ‘segregated’ lives and neighbourhoods of people of South Asian origin in particular. Sensationalised media reports at the time of the riots presented images of ethnically polarised cities, using the vocabulary of ‘no-go areas’ and ‘ghettoisation’.The official reports into the riots (e.g. Community Cohesion Review Team 2001) were more measured in their assessment but painted a similar picture. Several claims in these reports have now become part of the dominant discourse about minority ethnic segregation in twenty-first century Britain and a basis for policy formulation.”

    http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:-hh6s8HLyosJ:enhr2006-ljubljana.uirs.si/publish/W10_Phillips.pdf+ethnic+segregation+housing+UK&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=11

    What do ya’ll think?

  191. bananabrain — on 13th December, 2006 at 9:37 am  

    for me, it is a bit of a problem when people define how well integrated you are by how much intermarriage there is. for anyone who knows anything about jewish life, intermarriage is actually our #1 problem, or at least joint with the matter of all those people that want to kill us. whilst murder is one way to get rid of jews, intermarriage is far more statistically successful in doing so. we cannot, demographically speaking, afford intermarriage as a vehicle for integration. so the question is how do we define integration in a way that distinguishes it from assimilation? socially and economically, through friendship and employment? politically? educationally? without blowing our own trumpet, most commentators are keen to point out the jewish community (at least in the UK) as a well-integrated, productive minority and a model for others to follow, but the fact is it has never stopped being uncomfortable and at times unpleasant to belong to even such a well-integrated group, so unfortunately i wouldn’t expect it to change for muslims any time soon.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  192. Chairwoman — on 13th December, 2006 at 9:53 am  

    bananabrain – The difference between Jews and Muslims, is that we (the Jews) are used to being uncomfortable (nice euphamism), whereas they (the Muslims)have generally come here from places where they are mainstream, and being uncomfortable is a bit of a culture shock.

    But that apart, I think you’ve hit the nail firmly on the head.

  193. Arif — on 13th December, 2006 at 10:45 am  

    On the identity and integration issues…

    I feel I don’t really know how well integrated I am – I assume different people would have very different judgments.

    I don’t know how much of my success or failure at integrating by whatever standards would be due to my being Muslim or due to any other aspect of my identity.

    I do sometimes feel that my opinions would be more acceptable to some people if I were not a Muslim – and it is this sense which makes me aware of my Muslim identity where (by Sunny, Sen’s, Sonia’s and probably my own intellectual side’s standards) I should just suppress it as irrelevant. I have to give extended proofs that I am not some imaginary demon with a hidden agenda, and I guess (like Anas) that I am fighting a losing battle against some widely held tabloid-spread demonology.

    This is a slope to victim mentality, and I am glad I experience it, because it helps me sympathise with most of my opponents who are on their own slopes to victimhood and so we might have enough in common to help each other out of ideological traps.

    But when we get out how do we combat the ideologies which create the problems in the first place? Do we fight the journalists, politicians, religious leaders, interest groups, our psychological habits, the human condition….? With what weapons?

    I would suggest humility. But is that just because I am a Muslim?

  194. Chris Stiles — on 13th December, 2006 at 11:07 am  


    Thanks for responding. So what you are saying is that the majority of Brits, regardless of their ethnicity, live in mixed neighborhoods…correct? (Also,what does “ISTM” mean?)

    No, not as such. It would be very unlikely if the *majority of Brits* lived in mixed neighbourhoods – ethnic minorities are still only around 10% of the population, and there are large sections of the country (rural areas for instance) where they are completely absent.

    It wouldn’t suprise me to know that the majority of each ethnicity was living in areas in which they were a majority (though the neighbourhoods are still likely to be mixed).

    However, I think that only a minority of people have a mild preference for living near people ‘like themselves’ and it’s easy to underestimate how this can lead to apparent ‘ghettos’. Trouble spots apart, it’s this sort of thing that dominates the formation of each neighbourhood.

    ISTM = It Seems to Me.

  195. Chris Stiles — on 13th December, 2006 at 11:10 am  
  196. Anas — on 13th December, 2006 at 11:42 am  
  197. Chairwoman — on 13th December, 2006 at 12:22 pm  

    Anas – You and the blessed Norm are a bit late with this one, it’s been around for days.

    FYI I think the Rabbi is a complete moron and needs a serious reality check. I am embarrassed to share this planet with him, let alone a religion. This is also the opinion of all the Jewish and Israeli bloggers I have read.

  198. Arif — on 13th December, 2006 at 12:47 pm  

    On the Norman Finkelstein story… The rabbi only asked for a menorah, why take down the Christmas trees? Is it that hard for a massive company like an international airport to add a menorah as a decoration?

    Probably it feared that lots of different people might then add their own demands for decorations and threaten to sue, so it makes sense for them to avoid the whole problem and take down any decorations which seem to make people feel excluded.

    But I doubt that the rabbi had that in mind, he might just have felt that if people like to celebrate and have decorations, then he would like a relevant Jewish one as well and if there is no good reason to exclude Jewish decorations, then he had some reason to believe there might have been a bad reason behind it.

    It would be interesting to ask the rabbi (as he did not want the Christmas trees removed) what he would like to be the policy for how decorations are decided upon in a way which everyone would have no reason to feel excluded and which did not create more cost and arguments than it was worth.

  199. Esther — on 13th December, 2006 at 12:48 pm  

    Why is that funny Anas? It’s a silly story about silly people, but I don’t see much humour in it, except, it’s about a foolish Jewish man, lets laugh at the Jews, hahaha, how funny.

  200. Katy — on 13th December, 2006 at 12:52 pm  

    I’m with Arif. As with all of these “minorities stealing Christmas” stories, it turns out that what the minority was actually asking for was inclusion. But having said that, I don’t see why an airport should feel compelled to put a menorah next to their christmas trees. Christmas trees are left over from the old winter festivals; there is nothing intrinsically Christian about them.

  201. Kismet Hardy — on 13th December, 2006 at 12:55 pm  

    I don’t think it’s funny laughing at Jews. I tried it once when I heard the name Shylock, which sounded funny, but then the play was so long and he just droned and droned and wasn’t very funny at all. I stopped laughing at black people in a much similar vein after I saw how he let his jealous rage get inflamed by that Iago chap and left desdemona dead. That just made me cry

  202. bananabrain — on 13th December, 2006 at 1:13 pm  

    i can see why he’d want the menorah (or, properly chanukiah) set up (because part of our religious obligation for this festival is publicising the chanukah miracle of the oil lasting 8 days) *BUT* the idea that you can sue someone for not putting one up is a) laughable and b) hateful. it is not their obligation, it is his. what an idiot.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  203. Nick — on 13th December, 2006 at 1:16 pm  

    Blimey, even the intervention of Christ (152) didn’t shut them up… Some things never change!

  204. Electro — on 13th December, 2006 at 1:18 pm  

    Raz, since when can asking for equal treatment, reciprocity as it were, for religious minorites in majority-Muslim countires “faith bashing”.

    One suspects that your Koranic supremacism precludes even entertaining such a down to earth scenario.

    Love your smear about Israel oppressing religious minorites, as well!

    Is that why Israel’s Christian community has grown by 270% since 1948 whereas Christians in the “occupied” territories have declined by more than 50%?

    Since you can’t cleanse the region of Jews, you cleanse it of Christians by default, it seems.

    For a non-Muslim to even state something as straighforward as “all human beings are equal”….Muslims included….constitutes “islamophobia” in your world.

    It’s about time Muslims accorded the same rights to their religious minorites that The West accords to its Muslim minority.

    Simple as that!

  205. Ravi Naik — on 13th December, 2006 at 1:25 pm  

    “As with all of these “minorities stealing Christmas” stories, it turns out that what the minority was actually asking for was inclusion.”

    The rabbi did nothing wrong by asking, except that he did threaten to sue and this is what prompted this haste and unnecessary decision. I would say that this reflects the litigious nature of american society more than anything else.

    And Katy is absolutely right: a christmas tree is not a christian symbol, but is rather representive of the secular holiday season, just like the Santa Claus character which was introduced by coca-cola. So, it makes little sense to put a sacred symbol such as the menorah next to it.

    When we were kids, my parents who are devout catholics would not put up a christmas tree on the grounds that it was a pagan symbol, and decided instead on the nativity scene. And no Santa Claus either.

    I still hate Christmas. :(

  206. Anas — on 13th December, 2006 at 1:33 pm  

    Woah, hold on there dear Esther, I thought it was funny for the same reason Chairwoman and B’brain seemed to have done: the rabbi was obviously a pompous, self-deluded idiot. Such characters as these serve as the basis for most comedy, and that’s irrespective of race, religion, or creed.

    and

    Chairwoman, yeah, I’m a bit late on this one. But it’s always worth checking out Norm’s site for the wry comments he adds to each story. BTW, Chairwoman, if you want to buy Katy ‘Beyond Chutzpah’ for Christmas, be warned Amazon.com have removed it from their website — though thankfully it’s still on amazon.co.uk.

  207. Ravi Naik — on 13th December, 2006 at 1:41 pm  

    “Raz, since when can asking for equal treatment, reciprocity as it were, for religious minorites in majority-Muslim countires “faith bashing”.”

    It is faith-bashing, electro, because you are asking ‘raz’ for something he has no responsability or control, and you are smearing the muslim faith by linking it to despotic governments.

    You should stop reading trashy blogs like JihadWatch.

  208. Katy — on 13th December, 2006 at 1:55 pm  

    Good news, Anas – not only is Beyond Chutzpah still available to buy on amazon.com as well as amazon.co.uk, you can get it at a mightily reduced price. A magic of Christmas miracle!

  209. Kismet Hardy — on 13th December, 2006 at 1:55 pm  

    I still find Christmas trees weird. I grew up in Bangladesh and rich people had expensive stuff inside the house while the poor sheltered under trees. To chop one down and bring it into your house still makes me think it’s a very strange thing to do

  210. Sid — on 13th December, 2006 at 2:00 pm  

    Much as I hate to validate anything by gobshites like Electro, there is truth in suggesting that Muslims are simply not as vocal about the treatment of minorities in their countries as they are of being minorities in others’. Persecution of minorities in Muslim countries tends to be secular (territorial or ethnic) disputes. Although a lot of it is also the plain old ugly religious persecution too. There are, for example, almost no Muslim voices protesting the culture of rape of Darfurian women by the Janjaweed. Is this an awareness problem on the part of Muslims? Or are they just too bogged down by their own seige mentality in the West to protest the events in Darfur?

  211. Anas — on 13th December, 2006 at 2:08 pm  

    Yay, Katy! They put it back up. All thanks to the email campaign initiated on Professor Finkelstein’s site, methinks. Thanks for that piece of good news. I’ve got a signed copy of The holocaust industry, y’know.

  212. sonia — on 13th December, 2006 at 2:25 pm  

    sid – siege mentality no doubt . only being concerned for themselves – you’ll notice (generally) the more religious they get and waffle on about the Ummah the more group-o-centric (my term : trying to broaden out the same meaning of the term ethnocentric)they get.

    though of course groups generally are group-o-centric – ‘muslims’ of course arent the only ones.

    also of course, individually speaking – i guess people feel they only have limited time and attention and so tend to focus on one thing. which is fair enough. i do think that’s different to a self-centred mindset which feels that only its own problems exist, everyone else is happy or sth. the grass is greener on the other side sort of thinking, but with extra blinkers on.

  213. Electro — on 13th December, 2006 at 3:11 pm  

    It is faith-bashing, electro, because you are asking ‘raz’ for something he has no responsability or control, and you are smearing the muslim faith by linking it to despotic governments.

    Sorry, Ravi, but Raz DOES have choices and options when it comes the horrible treatment of religiouus minoroites in Muslim countries.

    Once again invoking “despotic gov’ts” as an excuse to deflect the blame amounts to just more denial.

    Wasn’t Hamas elected? So what’s the excuse now for the second class status of Palestinian Christians.

    And Ravi, it just escapes me that you would view calls for “equality under the law” as Muslim bashing.

    Is promoting women’s equality, then, a form of “male-bashing”?

    Come on!

    Are trying to tell me that institutionalised discrimination against religious minorities in majority muslim nations is natural and normal?

    And in case you’re wondering why no Muslims have made any portested the situation in Darfur it may perhaps have something to do with Arabo/Muslim sentiments of superiority.

    Muslims have told me to my face on several occasions that “Islam needs no defense”; they feel, thus, that any injustice taking place in Darfur must necessarily be the result of “outside” interference.

    Then there’s this commment:

    And Katy is absolutely right: a christmas tree is not a christian symbol, but is rather representive of the secular holiday season, just like the Santa Claus character which was INTRODUCED BY COCA-COLA

    What can one say?

    Ravi, the name “Santa Claus” is a variant of “St Nicolas” a Christian Saint who inhabited Anatolia (presently under Turkish occupation) in the 6th century. The desecrated ruins of a church he founded can still be seen there……

    If you’re gonna toast Santa, at least take the time to find out where he comes from.

    You were taught by *progressive* teachers, right?

  214. Don — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:00 pm  

    The Coca-Cola/Santa thing is an urban legend;

    http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp

  215. Anas — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:10 pm  

    At the risk of sparking off another debate about I/P, Electro, your concern for the Palestinian Christians is either completely phoney; or else comes second place to your love of Israel. It’s absurd to blame Palestinian Muslims for causing Palestinian Christian flight and then to defend Israel, which has been trying as hard as it can to remove (i.e., ethnically cleanse) the Palestinian (Muslim and Christian) presence from the occupied territories for the last few decades, and which is undoubtedly the primary cause behind the growth in Palestinian Christian emigration.

    As for the statistics you quoted regarding the increase in Christianity in Israel, would this be an increase in the number of native Arab Christians, or does it reflect an increase in Christian emigrants from across the world? BTW, what’s happening in Darfur doesn’t involve the persecution of religious minorities as far as I’m aware.

  216. sonia — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:11 pm  

    Desi – if anas or anyone wants to compare neighbourhoods in the UK to the US – firstly – they’re going to have to get specific. the UK’s a big place -and the US is a hell of a lot bigger. there are significant regional and local differences. since you’ve mentioned you’re in LA right now – well case in point – ( i lived in LA for a year) – comparing the two cities – LA and London would be very interesting.

  217. ZinZin — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:18 pm  

    Ravi, the name “Santa Claus” is a variant of “St Nicolas” a Christian Saint who inhabited Anatolia (presently under Turkish occupation) in the 6th century.

    please expand on this electro

  218. ZinZin — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:20 pm  

    Anas

    Darfur is Muslim persecuting Muslim and is a racial war; Arabs persecuting Black Africans.

  219. Ravi Naik — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:23 pm  

    “Sorry, Ravi, but Raz DOES have choices and options when it comes the horrible treatment of religiouus minoroites in Muslim countries.
    Once again invoking “despotic gov’ts” as an excuse to deflect the blame amounts to just more denial.”

    You realise you are doing the same by bringing Hamas, don’t you?

    “Ravi, the name “Santa Claus” is a variant of “St Nicolas” a Christian Saint who inhabited Anatolia (presently under Turkish occupation) in the 6th century. The desecrated ruins of a church he founded can still be seen there……”

    The Santa Claus character, the one who lives in the North Pole and has elves to build toys and raindeers, is nor christian or saint. He is part of the secular christmas. Indeed he is based on Saint Nicolas, but it was Coca Cola with its aggressive marketing that popularised and made Santa Claus an ubiquitous christmas figure we know today.

  220. Chairwoman — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:27 pm  

    Anas – Just for once hold your tongue.

  221. Ravi Naik — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:34 pm  

    “The Coca-Cola/Santa thing is an urban legend;
    http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp

    Don, the urban legend is that it was coca-cola who created the outfit (red-and-white suit). My point is that it was coca-cola who introduced and popularised Santa Claus as a secular christmas figure, which seems to be supported by the link you provided:

    The Santa image may have been standardized before Coca-Cola adopted it for their advertisements, but Coca-Cola had a great deal to do with establishing Santa Claus as a ubiquitous Christmas figure in America at a time when the holiday was still making the transition from a religious observance to a largely secular and highly commercial celebration.

  222. Anas — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:44 pm  

    Come on Chairwoman isn’t this an appropriate time to be discussing this? Jesus was born in a manger in the Occupied territories after all.

  223. ZinZin — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:45 pm  

    I worry about you Anas if there was Peace in the Middle East your life would becoming boring, meaningless and your sex life would suffer.

    Anyways whats everyone getting for Christmas?

  224. Leon — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:45 pm  

    Jesus doesn’t exist. That aside if this thread turns nasty expect comments to be switched off.

  225. Ravi Naik — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:51 pm  

    “At the risk of sparking off another debate about I/P…”

    You really don’t know much about risk management, do you Anas? :)

  226. Anas — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:52 pm  

    In case you hadn’t noticed Leon, the thread has already turned very nasty, see jmohammed’s comments above. Oh, yeah, it was just Muslims being slandered, which is OK.

  227. Anas — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:53 pm  

    Oh and Jews as well, actually.

  228. Leon — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:56 pm  

    “When a small fire burns, it’s best not to throw more fuel on it”

  229. sonia — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:58 pm  

    194. arif – interesting points. i think we can all identify with what you’re saying. my thought on this is naturally any aspect of our identity is going to affect what we think ( and not just identity in the sense it seems to commonly mean) i think it’s not about ‘suppressing’ it so much or per se – but just trying to be aware of what or how that influences us. (perhaps its a bit like in research documents – under the methodology section where one reports on possible bias etc. particularly if its qualitative ethnographic research techniques being used..) Just some thoughts…

  230. soru — on 13th December, 2006 at 4:59 pm  

    ‘Muslims have told me to my face on several occasions that “Islam needs no defense”; they feel, thus, that any injustice taking place in Darfur must necessarily be the result of “outside” interference.’

    Presumably, that means that somewhere out there there are a bunch of muslims who use whatever you said as proof of what all anglos think.

  231. sonia — on 13th December, 2006 at 5:06 pm  

    229 – Leon – very true!!

    what are we getting for xmas? good question..

  232. Don — on 13th December, 2006 at 5:59 pm  

    Ravi,

    re; Santa. Fair enough. Coca Cola played a part in placing a specific version at the heart of an increasingly secularised christmas.

    leon,

    ‘Jesus doesn’t exist.’ True, but isn’t it a shade tactless to mention it just before his birthday? Poor lamb’s inconsolable now.

    What’s everyone getting? Well, from my brother another bloody M&S cheese selection, same as the last six years. What am I? Ben Gunn? He being a DI who regards The Sweeney as a training video, I think a donation to Release in his name will be a thoughtful gesture.

  233. Anas — on 13th December, 2006 at 6:01 pm  

    Anyways whats everyone getting for Christmas?

    Fuck all.

  234. Sunny — on 13th December, 2006 at 6:11 pm  

    Oh look, what a surprise. I’m off for a few days and Anas starts talking about Finkelstein, Israel and the holocaust again. Well there’s a surprise, whoever accused him of having nothing else to talk about?

  235. Jai — on 13th December, 2006 at 6:39 pm  

    Anas is an unwitting victim of the continuing misgovernment of the United Kingdom vis-a-vis multiculturalism and the subsequent self-segregation of ethnic communities throughout the country, and his frequent outbursts regarding I/P on wholly unrelated topic threads are symptomatic of the historical legacy of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the re-drawing of Middle Eastern maps by heinous moustache-twitching colonialist rogues, the annexation of large swathes of the Indian subcontinent by the East India Company, and the fact that for some reason Anas cannot find the URLs for online group discussion websites frequented mostly by individuals of Middle Eastern origin (either of Muslim and/or Jewish religious affiliation), and he therefore has to raise this topic on Asian blogs such as Pickled Politics instead.

  236. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 13th December, 2006 at 6:42 pm  

    Thats because he is a complete anas.

    Did I spell that right?

    Damn my dsylexia …

  237. Electro — on 13th December, 2006 at 6:43 pm  

    Ravik, there are COUNTLESS depictions of St Nicolas that predate by centuries the invention of coca-cola…….

    Some European cultures( German, French, Slavic) refer to the guy as “Father Christmas” or “Pére Noel”.

    He was very popular in Russia, both in Czarist and Soviet times ( and we KNOW just how popular Coke was under Stalin!).

    Zin Zin: St-Nicolas was a 6th century Christian saint who lived in present day Turkey. We know what we know of him because he apparently was very kind , generous and was well loved by children. I,ve seen depictions of the guy, complete with red suit and white fur, that go back to at least the 16th century. He looked similar then, but the clothing styles were….um….archaic, to say the least.

    I also think that Santa represents something far more fundamental to western culture. By encouraging children to believe in a fictional character are we not preparing the terrain, do we not prime the minds of children for a healthy spirit of skepticism as adults? We encourage kids to embrace a false character, knowing full well they’ll discover the truth and that that discovery will constitute the first grand deception of their lives.

    Is Santa, then, an innoculation against future bullshit and bullshitters? Is he the beginning of a spirit of enquiry, an attitude of “show-me-the-proof”?

    Anas: Most of the increase of Christians in Israel comes from the native population. There are some imports, of course, but most of the figure quoted represents an increase of native “Christers”.

    And I agree with your view of “jmohammed’s” comments, Anas. If one could even call them “comments”….

  238. ZinZin — on 13th December, 2006 at 6:45 pm  

    I agree with Jai.
    Tis the season to bash Anas.
    La la la la la

  239. Sunny — on 13th December, 2006 at 6:51 pm  

    And Electro, give it a rest will you. You talk even more rubbish than Anas.

Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.

Pickled Politics © Copyright 2005 - 2010. All rights reserved. Terms and conditions.
With the help of PHP and Wordpress.