Political correctness has gone too far


by Sunny
22nd November, 2006 at 5:44 pm    

This is the motion being proposed by the Cambridge Union at a debate to be held tomorrow evening. They have invited me to debate against this motion. Anne Atkins (Telegraph agony aunt) and Lynette Burrows (author, accused of homophobic comments on the BBC) will be in favour, and Lindsey German (Respect candidate for Mayor of London) will be speaking against. There will also be a student speaker on either side of the motion.

Just great, I’m on the side of a Respect party candidate. I’m happy with my stance although sometimes I do believe PC goes too far, so I’ll be trying to take the middle ground. Given my crap oratory skills (points noted Nyrone), I need more practise so this is a good opportunity. What do readers think? Any examples?


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  1. El Cid — on 22nd November, 2006 at 6:16 pm  

    Well you could point out that blackboards in schools are now whiteboards, but that is due to technological change rather than PCness (even if some PC prats in the 1980s had a problem with the term blackboard).

    That brings me to another point: the PC debate is not new. It is about 20 years old — well past the unacceptably unPC 1970s, at a time when the looney left gave the rest of us in the Labour Party a bad name. So was it worth banning manhole? What about firefighter and the unisex use of actor? Should we extend the policy to the animal kingdom: e.g. a Portuguese woman of war and insist on doing away with “lionesses” and calling them “the royalty of the jungle”
    Animals have rights too you know!

    I think the big one is Christmas. Why call it the festive season when Diwali and Eid can stay as they are? Why must the majority culture be subjugated to a misguided liberal agenda? Actulally, is it a liberal agenda or a corporate agenda (my my, liberals and big business in bed together; whatever next?)
    I’ve never heard Hindus and Moslems complain abt Christmas, until maybe recently (actually, I still haven’t).

    I could go on, but I better get back to work. I just think the PC brigade at times can make something very serious look ridiculous.

  2. Kevin — on 22nd November, 2006 at 6:42 pm  

    And don’t forget the Right, particularly the Religious Right, have their own brand of political correctness they have no problem pushing. . .

  3. Nick — on 22nd November, 2006 at 6:45 pm  

    God I REALLY hate Anne Atkins. Every time I hear her on Thought for the Day I know she’s going to come out with something utterly un-Christian. She would be much happier as a Jew – all her thinking is totally Old Testament.

    There’s a lot of talk about Muslims, Hindus on PP obviously, but as a Christian (the second time I have outed myself thus on today, apologies) she would be to me the equivalent of Abu Hamza. I can well imagine her burning heretics… like me.

    But to the point: Anne and this other homophobe person aren’t reallly against Policial Correctness – they’re against it being acceptable to express the kind of prejudices they can no longer get away with. I bet Anne would love to say gays will burn in hell, for example, catholics too for that matter. And as for Muslims…

    These are the kind of people who in the guise of “plain speaking” actually mean to express the very meanest opinions. They like to portray their opinons as “down to earth” when actually they are the ill-informed prejudices of a reactionary kind of mind-set that seeks to deny the ambiguities of life which trouble them so. Political Correctness, for all its faults, seeks to take account of these ambiguities, these casual prejudices – and in doing so reflects real life far more clearly than those bigots who seek to “tell it how it is”.

  4. Nyrone — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:01 pm  

    LOL!

    Sunny, I never mentioned the word ‘crap’
    I said you were a gifted writer well able to crystalize your thoughts and arguments brilliantly in print form, but perhaps unable to do so with equal skill and precision in the public vocal arena.

    If you could bring 20% of the clarity and focus you possess as a writer to these debates, you would be a much better speaker.

  5. ZinZin — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:22 pm  

    Political correctness is a bad thing.

    Nick do you have a point? I prefer Alf Garnett racists to the “I’m not racist but..” crowd.

    But then i am an Islamophobe i would say that.

  6. Don — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:28 pm  

    Political correctness, as it concerns language, is simply the recognition that the dominant group can use language to reinforce its dominance.

    Political correctness as it is defined by the right is nincompoops who have half-grasped this and who are in a (usually petty) position of power to flaunt their semi-understanding by issuing patently silly dictats. Or by communalists who are seeking a political advantage.

    It is unacceptable to refer to black people as niggers = political correctness.

    Hucklberry Finn should be removed from library shelves because it contains the word ‘nigger’ = nincompoop.

    It is unacceptable to refer to black people as black people as we recently changed the acceptable term, but didn’t get round to telling you, therefore you are a racist = opportunistic communalist.

    Political correctness in the current sense seems to mean focussing on language and gesture polics over substance. In this sense it can be patronising, as in some functionary deciding that such and such a phrase might offend a minority, without actually bothering to find out if it actually does. In the early days of PP I suggested the term ‘Nativity Play Syndrome’, which El Cid liked but otherwise (disappointingly) failed to catch on.

    In broader terms it means that you can respond to any idiot who uses the terms spacker, nigger, bitch or paki with ‘What the fuck did you say?’ without the looks of blank incomprehension that met you as a radicalised sixth-former in the early 70′s.

    I would, however, advise against using the expression ‘Calling a spade a spade’ during the debate.

  7. El Cid — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:31 pm  

    Yeah, Nick, man of the people!

    Actually, the one that really REALLY gets my goat at the moment is “partner” FUCK OFF!
    Where’s the romance in that?! Where’s the fire, the humanity, the sensuality?
    I sleep with this woman and have TV dinners with her and joke and stuff, not have a business relationship with her!
    She’s my wife. Or girlfriend, or lover. And if I was queer, he’d be my boyfriend. Unless I was married, in which case he would be my partner and people would assume I was gay, which is also ok, OK!
    But my woman is my woman, you get me! And I am her man. I guess that’s plain speaking too.

  8. El Cid — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:33 pm  

    But Don
    I don’t see that as political correctness. What happened when stuff like that was just unacceptably racist, huh?

  9. Joe Otten — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:34 pm  

    Save for a handful of loony lefties the concept of PC is something that only exists in the minds of its opponents. That makes the motion a loaded one, and worth opposing for that alone.

    Calling something PC means i) that you’re against it, and ii) that you haven’t got an actual argument against it.

    Some opponents of PC of course want to be offensive, and are saying that inoffensiveness has gone to far. Atkins loves being offensive. But the BBC/Today programme doesn’t dare offend her by allowing any responses to her ranting, why? Political correctness, I expect.

    Is it PC to publish the Motoons, or not to publish them? The concept is empty, it has no content. Supporters and opponents of publishing could accuse each other, plausibly of PC until the cows come home without illuminating the issues at all.

    Because there is a real debate to be had about offensiveness. What sort of offensive behaviour is justified or appropriate, what is antisocial, what, if anything, should be illegal.

    The term PC doesn’t address this debate. All it says is “you think that’s wrong, so I think it is right”.

  10. El Cid — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:34 pm  

    Actually Don, we are at one (speedreading again)

  11. Gibs — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:41 pm  

    Ah yes – one of the most overused phrases on talk shows is “This is political correctness gone MAD”.

    Perhaps there should be a sweepstake on the time taken for that phrase to be uttered on the BBC’s “Question Time” (who knows … the sweepstake may be more interesting than the show itself !!!!).

    ……Also, just wondered if it is FAT, BALD, OLD, UGLY blokes (that’s 4 politically incorrect words for those who were counting) who are statistically more prone to use the phrase “political corectness gone mad” than any other group ????

  12. soru — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:56 pm  

    The underlying principle of political correctness is a variant of Voltaire’s famous statement on free speech:

    ‘I may agree with what you say, but I will attack you if you say it’.

    It is, at it’s core, hypocrisy – it’s about half-thinking something is true, wishing you didn’t think that way, and taking that conflict out on someone who says what you are half-thinking.

    If someone seriously thought something wasn’t true, then they would never need to use the phrases associated with political correctness (‘unhelpful’ and so on), they’d just say that thing was ‘wrong’, ‘stupid’, or whatever.

    So if people can’t be non-racist without having to rely on the artificial crutch of political correctness, as opposed to simply thinking they are right, plain old correctness, then the cultural movement behind political correctness has certainly not reached its goals.

  13. ZinZin — on 22nd November, 2006 at 8:01 pm  

    Sorry but Political correctness is alive and well. It is about neutering language and an obsessive relationship with respect (meaning no criticism). It is about promoting minority cultures at the expense of oppressive dominant cultures.

    PC treats as all as children in need of protection when we can all take care of ourselves. Dictatorial and patronising especially to those it intends to save or protect.

  14. Don — on 22nd November, 2006 at 8:04 pm  

    Soru,

    That’s harsh, but contains a lot of truth.

  15. David T — on 22nd November, 2006 at 9:13 pm  

    God, what a dismal set of speakers (Sunny excluded, of course) and what a stupid debate.

    Fucking halfwit Tabs!

    To quote Henry Kissinger: too bad they can’t both lose.

    PS Soru – Voltaire never said that: the quote is from an early 20th century biography on Voltaire, and is a summary of Voltaire’s view, not a verbatim quote.

  16. David T — on 22nd November, 2006 at 9:37 pm  

    El Cid

    The solution is, of course, to get married. Then you can use the term “my wife”

    I used this line in my wedding speech, in which I also bemoaned the inappropriateness of, “partner”, “girlfriend” and “lover” as, in turn, too formal, adolescent, and graphic. “Lover” in particular smacks of the Joy of Sex, doesn’t it?

    Sadly, I had forgotten that this was the theme of a former flatmate’s own wedding speech. I’d forgotten it, and subconsciously plagiarised the theme. He was in the audience. I sounded like a plagiarist at my own wedding!

  17. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 9:49 pm  

    It’s funny that the same people who tend to get indignant at the fact that PC has made it less acceptable to use words like Coon, Wog, Nigger darkie — when they see nothing offensive with these words — become apoplectic when they hear someone utter words like cock(when describing the male member), cunt, fuck, shit,(especially on the telly) even though these are words used to describe perfectly natural processes/parts of the body and not terms used to denigrate and insult particular groups of people on the basis of their skin colour.

  18. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 9:53 pm  

    You have my permission to quote that last post in full tommorow, Sunny.

  19. Sunny — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:07 pm  

    Thanks Anas!

  20. Don — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:12 pm  

    David,

    I find ‘my main squeeze’ covers it.

    Although a friend’s jocular habit of refering to his missus as ‘My first wife’ proved to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  21. Clairwil — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:16 pm  

    ‘Given my crap oratory skills ‘

    Sunny I haven’t heard you speak so I can’t comment one way or the other. However you write well and you’re always worth a read. Speech is my second language, writing is my first, so if you struggle through nerves or lack of experience you have my sympathy. Happily there are loads of fairly cheap courses in public speaking at F.E colleges or more expensive private lessons. Based on your writing, I think your voice is worth hearing, no harm in giving it a polish.

  22. MatGB — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:21 pm  

    Read this in my feedreader, came to comment on the crappy motion, and saw Joe had said what I was going to. Once again, I agree with Joe Otten, it’s becoming a habit. PC only exists as something to rail against.

    Ergo, the motion should be defeated as it’s not possible for PC to go too far, PC doesn’t exist as a movement anyway. Except with a bunch of loons who want to be nice to everyone and offend no one. Manners, on the other hand? They’re a good thing.

    It’s basic manners to avoid using terminology that’s stupidly offensive and outdated. But PC? Police Constable, innit…

    Have fun Sunny, I await the inevitable YouTubing with anticipation.

  23. William — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:31 pm  

    Anas

    It was not PC that made terms like wog, nigger unacceptable they were just plain offensive anyway to anyone except racists.

    Also I agree with some PC, Golliwogs on jam jars were racist cos they are a caricature of black people created in the bad old days.

    Don

    Really agree with most of what you say and put simply
    except

    “I would, however, advise against using the expression ‘Calling a spade a spade’ during the debate. ”

    The above is just a term used to express good old down to earth plain speaking and to me should not be twisted to something else.

    Zin Zin

    I prefer Alf Garnett racists to the “I’m not racist but..” crowd.

    This used to dismay me. Sometimes people were just expressing this to point out some exception to a rule or grey area. OK sometimes when it was used the person may be hiding racism but other times it was just a double bind that was simply unproductive.

  24. Sunny — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:38 pm  

    Nyrone and Clairwil – thanks!

    Yeah I know… I wish I was able to speak properly in front of an audience or on TV. I’m doing much better now on radio (I think). Well, practice makes perfect as they say. Hence I keep taking them on.

  25. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:21 am  

    Let’s talk about Gollies for a moment. As someone who was a child of the Golly generation, can I assure you that, (a) We had no idea that they were supposed to be black people; (b) We thought they were exactly what they were, smiley, friendly toys; (c) They were always just called ‘Golly’, nobody ever said the w bit; (d) We loved them to bits.

    Political correctness stole our innocent love of a soft toy.

    And if this offends you, tough.

  26. Don — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:35 am  

    William,

    It was a joke. Don’t be so PC. That’s the trouble with you people …

  27. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:35 am  

    How would you feel if they brought out soft toys that portrayed what are considered, stereotypically Jewish features across the Arab world, as a means of inculcating hatred in little children towards peoples of Jewish ethnicity, CW? Rightly you’d condemn it.

    Well you only have to realise how the symbolism of the gollywog doll ties in with the whole history of slavery and colonialism in order to see it as a means of spreading a certain message about people of African descent amongst innocent young kiddiewinks.

  28. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:46 am  

    Anas
    Its a childs toy.

    Although i believe that Bukhari has a Woody Allen doll. So maybe you have a point.

  29. Siddharth — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:48 am  

    Political correctness has prevevented a word entering the English lexicon that is as racially offensive towards white people as “nigger” is to black people.

    Basically, the antithesis of this.

  30. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:58 am  

    ZZ, that’s one of the most effective ways of spreading hatred and prejudice: through kids toys, kids books, kids TV programs…i.e., get ‘em while they’re still young and their critical faculties are fairly undeveloped. It’s what makes it even more insidious, don’t you see?

  31. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:06 am  

    To quote Robert Anton Wilson:

    Ah, it’s truly amazing how quickly children learn — in whatever time or place they happen to grow up — which groups to loathe and despise, and which to treat as human. I think Oscar Hammerstein even wrote a song once about how easily little children can be taught group prejudice.

    The song (“You have to be carefully taught… it needs to be dunned in your dear little ears…”) even became popular once, back before group prejudice was discovered to be politically correct.

  32. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:13 am  

    I believe Anas that CW has dealt with your point. The gollwog did not become a racist symbol until Enid Blyton got hold of it. The Gollys first appearance was in a childrens book in which the golly was a hero this i found out watching the Great British Black invasion on Channel four a few weeks ago.

    If young children are racists they pick it up from their parents not a childs play thing. I played monopoly many a time yet it does not make me a businessman.

  33. Robert — on 23rd November, 2006 at 3:38 am  

    I do think that the misuse of Political Correctness provides ammo for those who wish to maintain the inequitable status quo. The stupid examples of Christmas being banned by certain town councils, or a woman wearing a cross being reprimanded by British Airways, are examples of fools assuming someone will be offended, and then acting to stop it before it happens!

    Nevertheless, I think that the actual concept of PC has something good and positive at its core.

    Sunny, I’ll be willing to bet that someone will use the phrase “self hating white liberal” which is a Politically Correct cliche itself. Its a phrase that should be challenged, as it is basically an irrational slur by which the speaker attempts to pooh-pooh any critique of British Culture, especially colonialism.

  34. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 9:30 am  

    Anas – I do take your point, but we really didn’t know they were supposed to be people, and nor did my parents. And far from encouraging children to hate black people, we loved our Gollies. That’s actually the point I was making.

    Today it would obviously be untenable, but in the ’40s and ’50s we weren’t sophisticated enough to know we were being programmed.

    This really isn’t the place for this discussion, but the culture was so different then. Let me give you an example, my father was in the entertainment world, and one of the things he did was promote All In Wrestling. Two of his star wrestlers were brothers of West African
    parents who wrestled under the names of ‘Black Butcher Johnson’ and ‘Black Johnny Kwango’. These names were non-perjorative. They were exceedingly popular gentlemen, and I use the term in its original sense, welcome everywhere. Nowadays such names wouldn’t be allowed even in the unlikely event that someone wanted to call themselves something of that ilk.

    Please don’t think I want to return to that culture, but let’s put things in context.

  35. miraxx — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:24 am  

    “but let’s put things in context.”

    I’m curious about the ‘context’, Chairwoman. Just a less sophisticated, more innocent time? Or a time of such deepseated and commonplace notions of racial superiority that one could afford to be casually, patronisingly kind ad hospitable to Messrs Black and Black?

  36. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:34 am  

    Spot on miraxx. It’s not so much that these dolls were promoting active hatred against black people, but that they were part of a process of dehumanising and humiliating them.

    From Wikipedia:

    The Golliwogg (later golliwog) is a rag doll-like, children’s literary character created by Florence Kate Upton in the late 19th century…The child of English parents, Upton and her family moved to England when she was fourteen. There she spent several years drawing and developing her artistic skills. In order to afford tuition to art school, she illustrated a children’s book entitled The Adventures of Two Dutch Dolls and a Golliwogg. The 1895 book included a character named the “Golliwogg”, who was first described as “a horrid sight, the blackest gnome”, but who quickly turned out to be a friendly character, and is later attributed with a “kind face”.

  37. Leon — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:34 am  

    Today it would obviously be untenable, but in the ’40s and ’50s we weren’t sophisticated enough to know we were being programmed.

    Maybe you weren’t but I’ve known more than a few from that generation who were aware they were.

  38. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:44 am  

    Anyone remember the film Dambusters? One of the airmen’s dog was called Nigger.

  39. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:49 am  

    One of the airmen’s dog was called Nigger.

    That sentence reads really awkwardly. Maybe I should have typed: One of the airmen had a dog called Nigger.

  40. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 11:10 am  

    You are all so full of crap. It’s astonishing how people who didn’t live through those times are so much better informed than those of us who did. I now understand how frustrated my parents were by arrogance and banality of youth.

    Yes there were people who were prejudiced, but there are more than a few in these enlightened times. Gollies are toys, they are dolls, they were cuddled for goodness sake. They had tea parties with Teddies and dollies.. We didn’t get dressed up in bedsheets, burn fiery crosses, and then lynch them in each others back gardens.

    The truth is that all non-whites, and that includes Jews, are only tolerated here. Yes we all have white friends and acquaintances, but the majority of people in this country have never had more than a passing acquaintance with one of us in a social context. Their usual contact is with a medical professional, accountant or lawyer, the chap behind the counter in the chip shop or other fast food outlet, the corner shop the post office or the newsagent.

    That is the reality. We are among them, but not of them. For the majority of people, things have not changed since Squadron Leader guy Gibson called his Labrador Retriever ‘Nigger’. That’s the reality.

    And there are no gollies today.

  41. soru — on 23rd November, 2006 at 11:28 am  

    I played monopoly many a time yet it does not make me a businessman. .

    Actually, Monopoly was invented explicitly as a tool to teach anti-capitalist ideas.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_board_game_Monopoly
    In 1903, a Georgist, Lizzie Magie, applied for a patent on a game called The Landlord’s Game with the object of showing how rents enrich property owners and impoverish tenants. She knew that some people could find it hard to understand why this happened and what might be done about it, and she thought that if the rent problem and the Georgist solution to it were put into the concrete form of a game, it might be easier to demonstrate.

    It’s actually an interesting question as to what extent it worked.

  42. Leon — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:23 pm  

    You are all so full of crap. It’s astonishing how people who didn’t live through those times are so much better informed than those of us who did. I now understand how frustrated my parents were by arrogance and banality of youth.

    Nice…

  43. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:26 pm  

    Glad you like it.

  44. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:34 pm  

    Even the most reasoned and conciliatory people sometimes just get angry and can’t swallow it.

    Right now I am more angry than I have been for a long time. There’s real prejudice and discrimination everywhere. It’s endemic. The soft toy is surely the ultimate straw man.

    Winning the hearts and minds of Populus Britanicas is your problem. We didn’t manage it. I do, however, know that the stick won’t work without the carrot.

  45. Jai — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:41 pm  

    =>”Winning the hearts and minds of Populus Britanicas is your problem.”

    I thought Asians in general had been doing quite well on that front prior to 9/11, what with various aspects of Indian culture (food, clothes, music, Goodness Gracious Me etc) having filtered into the mainstream society to some extent.

    It’s a shame things have apparently gone into reverse. I bet that issues such as “the veil” etc would have received a noticeably more sympathic hearing in Britain if 9/11 and 7/7 hadn’t occurred. Same with the current controversies over multiculturalism, “segregated” communities etc. Just my view, anyway.

  46. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:51 pm  

    Jai – We see what we want to see. And they adopt the bits they like and then call them their own.

    Among them, but not of them.

  47. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:52 pm  

    BTW they actually like the segregated communities. They don’t really want us to live next door to them.

  48. Sid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:57 pm  

    I never found the golliwog as racially offensive as being chased down the road by a bunch of violent vicious thugs shouting “NIGGER”! Unless you’re going to tell me that marmalade on toast made them do that…

  49. Leon — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:03 pm  

    Some of this just goes to show the demented lack of empathy/understanding/insight various ethnic groups can with each other…

  50. miraxx — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:13 pm  

    ‘BTW they actually like the segregated communities. They don’t really want us to live next door to them.’

    That’s some generalising. Some of you BMEs have mighty huge chips on your shoulders. Try this out for real victimhood. Take a ‘moderate’ multicultural country (but with institutionalised racism for just one ethno-religious group). There’s just one predominant ruling party, mono-religious of course. Imagine if the delegates of this party had – despite all the entrenched privileges of a half century- had just , over the last few days in fact, had had an annual meeting where some of its delegates called for the beheading of kaffir minorities while the youth chief was waving a kris(sort of dagger), threatened that they could always run amok to keep the uppity minorities in place and ended with ugly racist chants, with the Prime minister looking on benignly.You’d have something real to talk about as a minority then! I really don’t have much sympathy for some of you whiners, tbh.

    http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/59786

  51. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:21 pm  

    Leon, I do understand how you feel. I would feel the same, I’m just telling you how we golly owners felt.

    I’ve got a picture of myself, aged about 3, in my parents’ big bed, hugging my golly. There are other soft toys there, but it is obviously Golly that I loved best.

    I am just desperately sad that anyone should think that my cuddly companion was a figure of ridicule and prejudice. Whoever put the blame on Enid Blyton and Noddy has hit the nail on the head.

    I never heard my parents, grandparents or aunties and uncles make any kind of racially prejudiced remark in their lives. The kind of people who made those remarks are people that my parents would not have had anything to do with.

    The nearest thing I heard to prejudice was when one of my older cousin’s father-in-law said that Catholicisism was a religion of convenience. Later on my father told me that the man was a ridiculous biggot. He then told me that what a biggot was. Then he showed me adverts for rental properties which said ‘No Jews, Coloureds, Irish, Dogs’.

  52. Leon — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:24 pm  

    Leon, I do understand how you feel. I would feel the same, I’m just telling you how we golly owners felt.

    All I’m doing is disputing that. I know people of your generation and they felt and knew very differently about it.

  53. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:32 pm  

    Miraxx – There’s a difference between acknowledging how things are and whining.

    Nobody’s knocking at my door to cart me off yet, but people have advocated the killing of Jews at public meetings. This is all fairly new to me. I have often said that I have spent the majority of my life without feeling any prejudice at all. But the climate is changing, and I just feel that we should neither fool ourselves or become complacent.

    After WWII, everyone vowed that genocide would never happen again, but in reality it hasn’t stopped.

    I have a beautiful German Shepherd Dog. She is quiet and very gentle. But, for some reason she doesn’t like someone who regularly visits the house. This person has done nothing to her, they always attempt to make much of La Fluffita, but she always backs away, and watches them out of the corner of her eye. At those times I am aware that she is a big dog with big teeth.

    That is a microcosm of how the country feels to me. Potentially dangerous. We’ve all seen the newsreel of the SS Officer examining the old Jewish woman with his stick. I don’t want that to be me. I don’t want it to be anyone else either.

  54. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:33 pm  

    Leon – of course there are those that did. I’ve already said that. But there were plenty who didn’t.

  55. Leon — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:43 pm  

    Chairwoman, this is a pointless exchange, neither of us has objective data to support our views and experiences, thus neither can convince the other.

  56. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:51 pm  

    I am always delighted to agree to disagree, Leon :-)

  57. Jagdeep — on 23rd November, 2006 at 2:22 pm  

    Don’t worry Chairwoman, if it ever comes down to that, we have our baseball bats and knives and knuckledusters (and I’m sure some guns!) to protect you and anyone else if it ever came to that —- the atmosphere is getting charged and God knows what is going to happen in the aftermath of the next terrorist attack, but we’ll be ready either way. You are probably right that we’ll never be fully accepted but then that’s the way God saw fit to test us and I’ll be damned if I won’t stake a claim to this society or die trying.

    (If the jehadis or the skinheads dont kill me first!)

  58. Jai — on 23rd November, 2006 at 2:41 pm  

    =>”I never found the golliwog as racially offensive as being chased down the road by a bunch of violent vicious thugs shouting “NIGGER”!”

    What I find irritating, frustrating, and other various deeply-rumbling emotions I can’t quite put a name to, is the fact that in any adversarial confrontation with a white person who may or may not have racist inclinations, if push comes to shove the other party can just (try to) cut you down with a single response of “Paki”. No matter how much you’re “in the right”, no matter how coherent and correct your arguments, it’s like sometimes it just comes down to one single word by the other party used to completely, instantly undermine your entire position.

    It just totally dehumanises the target — whether it’s someone caught in an actual argument or a random Asian family being shouted at by a bunch of Asbo teenagers passing by on the street. Everything is reduced and condensed to just one word = “Paki”.

  59. Jagdeep — on 23rd November, 2006 at 3:40 pm  

    if push comes to shove the other party can just (try to) cut you down with a single response of “Paki”

    That is where your practise in insulting the individuals mother and father and insinuations of your opponent’s intimacy with them, amongst other slanders, and the word C-U-N-T comes into play my friend —- but only as a last resort and in reply to the redneck you are facing uttering that phrase. So get practising :-)

  60. Jagdeep — on 23rd November, 2006 at 3:42 pm  

    Which you should be adept at doing anyway coming from a Punjabi background :-)

  61. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 3:56 pm  

    Well Chairwoman, if young British Jews are feeling intimidated in Britain they can always join the Israeli army and shoot some Arab women and children to let off a bit of steam.

  62. funkg — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:01 pm  

    That is where your practise in insulting the individuals mother and father and insinuations of your opponent’s intimacy with them, amongst other slanders

    Your right Jagdeep,

    A poor drunken specimen of a Geordie once called me a black cunt. I laughed at him and said ‘look at me and look at the state of you. ive got a good job with money and prospects , beautiful girlfriend, strong culture and looks. What have you got?’
    My point is yes we can rise above these comments because we are empowered enough to do so. If this poorly educated person was to deny me a job, prospects learning or threaten my family that’s a different matter. We should not beat ourselves up on a few words or the odd unfashionable terminology such as ‘coloured people’. On the other hand rather than focus on PCness why can’t the Daily Mail et al realise that aspects of being PC can just equate to displaying good manners to others?

  63. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:02 pm  

    Now, that last comment was a real example of political incorrectness!

  64. Jagdeep — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:05 pm  

    Anas, that has got to be the crassest and dumbest of your trolling interventions. Truly pathetic. I bet Utbah’s posts give you erections too. Uggh.

  65. Jagdeep — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:07 pm  

    I’m with you funkg.

    I think that broadly speaking there are two approaches you can take — become enraged by that kind of thing and provocation, which will ultimately burn you out and leave you defeated with bitterness, or just concentrate on circumventing the worst of that prejudice by positive achievment and hard work. In some ways it takes more guts to do the latter.

    But it’s still fun to cuss them back sometimes too.

  66. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:09 pm  

    Well however obscene my “intervention” was it was nothing compared to the contents of the article I linked to.

  67. Jagdeep — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:12 pm  

    What a pathetic response Anas. Its clear you have a trolling agenda on this site and it’s not the first time you have pulled that trick on Chairwoman on a thread that has nothing to do with Israel and in which you insinuate a collective responsibility and guilt to her just because she is Jewish. Crass, vulgar, moronic — you’re nothing but a troll.

  68. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:17 pm  

    “Well Chairwoman, if young British Jews are feeling intimidated in Britain they can always join the Israeli army and shoot some Arab women and children to let off a bit of steam.”

    Well Anas, if young British Muslims are feeling intimidated in Britain they can always join the a terror group and commit suicide-murder on the tube network killing and injuring hundreds.

    Its clear that you would fail an Israel test.

  69. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:20 pm  

    It’s not because she’s Jewish, Jag, but because of her stance on Israel.

    I stand by my comment, if it seems crude or vulgar it’s only because it reflects a situation that is such.

  70. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:22 pm  

    That’s the analogy I was going for ZZ.

  71. Jagdeep — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:24 pm  

    Anas you’re pathetic and you’re gutless because you lie. You’re just a troll — if some twat kept poppng up on threads which had nothing to do with Islam or terrorism and posted links to terrorist Islamic atrocities and held you to collective responsibility and guilt and did that consistently and then when you called them for their trolling crass agenda said , oh, but what about all the innocents killed by the terrorists that’s worse than my posts —– that is the exact same thing you’re doing. And you’ve done it consistently time and time and time again.

  72. Jagdeep — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:28 pm  

    Anas you’re such a liar:

    Well Chairwoman, if young British Jews are feeling intimidated in Britain they can always join the Israeli army

    You only troll on her and bait her because she is Jewish.

  73. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:30 pm  

    It’s interesting, because this does tie into the discussion about political incorrectness. Sometimes being politically incorrect simply means that you’re willing to say things that contradict a expedient or popular view that you hold to be wrong. My views on Israel/Palestine, and Western FP in general are probably considered un-PC in many contexts, certainly at least compared to what is broadly acceptable in the mainstream media.

    So, the troll is in the eye of the beholder — or the to be more accurate the admin.

  74. miraxx — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:34 pm  

    About time anas got pulled up for this, Jagdeep. keep going!

  75. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:35 pm  

    Anas I don’t consider you a troll but as suffering from myopia. Banging on about FP being behind terrorism and blaming Israel for the problems afflicting the ME with out considering other factors.

    Come back when you have completed your Israel test.

  76. miraxx — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:38 pm  

    >>My views on Israel/Palestine, and Western FP in general are probably considered un-PC in many contexts, certainly at least compared to what is broadly acceptable in the mainstream media.

    Some slitherin and slidin. Well I suppose BNP views are extremely un-PC by this lame reckoning and you will from now on shut up forever on muslim ‘demonisation’.

  77. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:44 pm  

    You only troll on her and bait her because she is Jewish.

    You’re being really persistent with this spurious accusation of racism aren’t you? I’m sorry but it’s bullshit. CW, is admittedly not a very vocal supporter, but a supporter of Israel nonetheless, therefore irrespective of her ethnicity I feel entitled to challenge her. Just as you would no doubt at least support in the case of somebody who supported extremist and millitant Islamic groups — I’m pretty sure, given your own dislike of Islamic fundamentalists you’d probably endorse such “trolling”. OK, I admit sometimes it’s inappropriate but, again, in this case, a discussion about racism, and about “belonging” to any one country, I don’t feel it is. That’s up for discussion though; accusations of racism against me are designed to quash any debate however.

  78. miraxx — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:45 pm  

    >>but people have advocated the killing of Jews at public meetings.

    When was this Chairwoman? Surely some criminal prosecution was due and did happen, right? Your pessimism about the current state of race relations is of recent vintage isn’t it, given that you admit to encountering very little prejudice most of your life?

  79. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:49 pm  

    Well I suppose BNP views are extremely un-PC by this lame reckoning and you will from now on shut up forever on muslim ‘demonisation’.

    Not really, a lot of their disgusting views are gaining more and more credence within the mainstream media. In a sense they’re becoming more PC.

  80. miraxx — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:49 pm  

    So any support of Isreal = support for violent extremist islamist nutters

    That’s totally spurious, Anas.I am not buying it.

  81. miraxx — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:53 pm  

    Btw, I’m a supporter of Israel too. That means i stand ready to murder palestinian babes in their slumber too, hmm?

  82. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:54 pm  

    Chairwoman comes across as such a nice and decent person (although she probably thinks I’m a dickhead now if she didn’t before) that I do often hold back from posting some of my choicer comments. But I do find it a struggle not to confront pro-Israel supporters. I’m sure I would have behaved the same to nice White South African ladies who were keeping quiet about Aparthied in the 1980s, and the situation in I/P is currently much worse than that.

  83. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:55 pm  

    So this is what its boils down to any criticism of Islam/Muslims is Islamophobia?
    Does that make your criticisms of Israel anti-semitic?

  84. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:56 pm  

    That’s totally spurious, Anas.I am not buying it.

    Why differentiate between different types of terrorism? This is the disease of the “civilised” West.

    Btw, I’m a supporter of Israel too. That means i stand ready to murder palestinian babes in their slumber too, hmm?

    No, but you’re probably quite happy to keep quiet about it happening.

  85. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 4:56 pm  

    No, anti-Zionist, ZZ.

  86. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:03 pm  

    Anas
    Zionism is the political movement that aimed to establish a Jewish state in the Middle East. So if you are anti-zionist that must mean that you are against the state of Israel’s right to exist.

  87. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:03 pm  

    The advantage I have is that I resigned myself to unpopularity years ago.

  88. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:03 pm  

    Anas – I thought you were better than that. You are not only a one trick pony and a dissembler, but you try to pervert my opinions.

    You haven’t mentioned how I wrote to you privately directing you to a new blog where young people from all over the middle east were communicating with each other, all hoping for peace and a 2 state solution.

    You try very hard to make me sound like a person who supports the killing of civillians.

    I am setting out my stall here. I said I wouldn’t allow you to goad me any more, but one last time here are my beliefs.

    I believe in a two state solution. I believe that the two sides should negotiate with no pre-conditions. Regardless of your belief that Israel is the stronger, logically it can’t be. Therefore each side goes to the table equal as they each have something the other needs, even if they may not want it. And as someone who has negotiated professionally and privately for many years, I know that the only successful negotiation is one where both parties leave the table feeling dissatisfied. This may not suit you, but it’s true.

    And by the way, perhaps young Jews wouldn’t feel that they have to leave the place they were born and go and fight people they don’t know in a land as yet unfamiliar if they weren’t harrangued and abused by people who, like you, think they can make any assumptions they like because they are Jews.

    Basically Anas, you’ve just shouted ‘Paki’ at me.

    Well done.

  89. miraxx — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:04 pm  

    You are obsessed with the I/P issue to the point of sickness, if this is your idea of holding back. Given the complexities of even South africa, many a non-white S african may not have welcomed your kind of support for their cause. Big clue : they did not set about driving the evil whites into the sea in a rage of retribution but set up a truth and reconciliation commission to understand and heal themselves.

  90. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:07 pm  

    ZZ, I am against the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish majority state if that means the ethnic cleansing of non-Jews. Something many Zionists have touted, including Lieberman currently a high ranking member of the Israeli government. If that makes me an anti-Zionist, sure I’ll wear the badge.

  91. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:09 pm  

    BTW earlier this week a young white British hooligan went to prison for feeding his neighbour’s cat to his Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

    Do you think that was a Mossad plot?

  92. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:09 pm  

    No, but the assassination of Pierre Gemayel probably was.

  93. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:10 pm  

    Are you against Egypt, Iraq and Yemen as Islamic mahority states as they ethnically cleansed themselves of Jews because the state of Israel came into existance?

  94. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:12 pm  

    There it is. Of course it has to be the fault of Israel. Along no doubt with the assassination of the Kennedy brother, John Lennon and Diana, Princess of Wales.

  95. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:12 pm  

    Very, very angry now!

  96. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:14 pm  

    Like it or not, Anas, you are an anti-semite rather than an anti-Zionist, because you attribute the foulest of motives to Jews.

    You do moderate Islam no service at all.

  97. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:15 pm  

    Anas
    Mr Tamimi is an anti-zionist so choose your words with care.

  98. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:24 pm  

    Look CW, I appreciated your emails, and I agree that the blog you directed me to was a hopeful sign (to an extent). But, like it or not, what is happening in Palestine right now is brutal and inhuman and deserves outright condemnation. A whole nation of people is being treated as sub-human. As a Jewish person I appreciate, you may not have direct responsibility. But just as after 9/11 or 7/7 Muslims were expected to vocally distance themselves from the actions of the murderers, therefore, I feel it is important that people of Jewish ethnicity publically condemn the crimes being committed by Israel, because at some level these crimes are being justifed in the name of a Jewish state. I find the silence amongst the Jewish community disturbing, even more than the active support for these acts of terror.

    I posted that link about the British Jewish soldiers because I felt it obscene that someone who felt harrassed in this country could then go to another country and take part in a brutal occupation and theft of someone else’s land, as part of a program of ethnic cleansing, all done dubiously the name of “security”. If I get harrassed here in Glasgow, which I do sometimes, does that give me a signal to go and sign up to Jihadis in Iraq, or Afghanistan? No. It isn’t up to racists to determine whether I’m British or not, it isn’t up to those who think I don’t belong in this country. That’s my right as a citizen, I don’t have to account for the prejudices and hatefulness of my fellow citizens, neither should you CW.

    I’m sorry if I upset you personally, CW, like I say you seem like a decent person, but my conscience prevents me from keeping silent. Even if I’m aware people like Jagdeep will reflexively accuse me of racism.

  99. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:25 pm  

    miraxx – it was the guy with the hook, and Bhakri. Sorry only just read your earlier comment through the red haze of fury (something I don’t often allow to happen.

    I’m not always good with names.

  100. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:26 pm  

    That Gemayel line was half in jest, CW.

    And no, I’m angry at any form of ethnic cleansing. Including that of Jews or Christian from Arab and Muslim countries: as well as being immoral I think it seriously damages those countries economically and culturally.

  101. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:27 pm  

    And Bobby Kennedy was assassinated by the CIA, it was on Newsnight.

  102. Leon — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:28 pm  

    Is this discussion an example of political correctness going to far?

  103. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:31 pm  

    choose your words with care

    Which is what PC is all about!

  104. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:31 pm  

    I suggest you have a look at the Jewish Chronicle from time to time.

    You can’t condemn a whole nation for the actions of its government. If you did then the UK wouldn’t be in good standing.

    What you can’t get your head round is that Israelis feel as beleagured as the Palestinians. It only needs a shift in the balance of power in Jordan and Egypt for a three pronged attack to start.

    Because you don’t agree doesn’t mean it isn’t correct.

  105. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:31 pm  

    So I assumed you didn’t sign Sunny’s declaration then Anas.

  106. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:33 pm  

    Anas
    Anti-zionism is not about opposing Israeli expansionism it means drive the Jews into the sea.

  107. Leon — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:36 pm  

    I sense a closing of comments coming…

  108. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:44 pm  

    Anti-zionism is not about opposing Israeli expansionism it means drive the Jews into the sea.

    Well, that’s news to me!

  109. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:54 pm  

    An observation: criticism of Israel is Un-PC but not for the same reasons that the gollywog is.

  110. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 5:59 pm  

    Another observation: if you want to argue with me but don’t want to actually address the points I’m making why not attribute beliefs to me that I do not hold, and start attacking those very beliefs?

  111. Sid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:02 pm  

    Anas

    Criticism of Israel is not PC in the correct context, time and place. Bringing it up at the drop of a hat or any other lame pretext undermines the issue and makes you look like an unhinged OCS victim. Oh and Gemayel was killed by the Syrians.

  112. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:02 pm  

    Criticism of Israel is extremely PC. Having loved a smiley black soft toy in ones infancy isn’t.

    People attribute beliefs to you because you sound as though you have them. Nobody picked your name out of a hat.

  113. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:05 pm  

    Back to the subject of “nigger”
    Although it’s probably the most taboo racist word of all (unlike yiddo, which just means Spurs fans where I come from), it feels kinda stoopid to get too worked about it when hip-hop and Black American sub-culture make such a big deal of it. (We’re claiming it back man!).
    In fact, the way it is used sometimes, it’s unclear whether it is a term of endearment (like black mate) or perjorative (like black chav).

  114. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:06 pm  

    don’t close it yet Leon

  115. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:06 pm  

    And still on the PC debate, I still find it startling when I come across different standards across Europe. When Albanian fans ooo-ooed our black players, a bit of me had to laugh — I mean if the Albanians couldn’t grasp the irony, what’s the point? Then there was THAT Spain vs England game. I still bristle with embarassment, especially the level of denial about the place (I’d like to think it is improving). And then I came across this when I popped over to Austria from Germany:
    http://www.mohrenbrauerei.at/
    We used to have something similar with Robinson’s Jam. In the general scheme of things it’s not THAT bad, but would it be better not to have it? Of course. The thick lips, the knotted hair – it’s not very flattering and reminiscent of a bygone dodgy era. My German friends — lovely people, I mean really nice, ten times nicer than me — didn’t think much of it, as many of us don’t when we are faced with something that we have been used to for a long time and is part of our cultural fabric.
    But then thought mohren — that sounds moreno, which means tanned or dark in Spanish.
    “So what does mohren mean?” I asked
    “Um, how you say.. it’s a bit like nigger,” she said, without really realising.
    So niggerbrew I thought. Hmmm. I reckon it’s more like darkiebrew, but still….
    I brought a bottle home for a mate. Yes, a black mate. I thought it was funny in an ironic sort of way. And we did both laugh, shaking our heads. But I didn’t let him take the bottle to put on his shelf. As I explained, the idea of his mum and dad seeing it filled with me paternalistic dread. I mean, would they see the joke or would they be saddened by a sense of pyrrhic victory? I didn’t want to risk it.

  116. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:06 pm  

    I tend to make irrelevant comments all over the place, it’s only the I/P related ones that seem to raise any brouhaha. BTW, I don’t think it was irrelevant in this case.

  117. Katy Newton — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:17 pm  

    I tend to make irrelevant comments all over the place, it’s only the I/P related ones that seem to raise any brouhaha.

    Anas, you have very occasional moments when you talk about something that isn’t I/P and when you do no one complains because they’re glad for the break.

    But you can’t leave it alone, can you? You act as if there’s nothing going on in the world of any importance apart from Israel. It’s as if you’ve had a social behaviour bypass or something. Lots of people have strong views about I/P but the way you force your views on people in this site, regardless of context or subject, just isn’t normal. No one does it apart from you and Utbah. I look at the way you behave on this website and I wonder if you have any idea what you’re like. You just barge into threads on a completely unrelated topic and start ranting as if no one was talking about anything else. I wonder if you do that in real life? Do you just walk up to people who are talking to each other in the street, barge into their conversations and start screaming about Israel without any regard for what they were talking about? Because that’s what you do here all.the.time. It’s as if you can’t help it. The reason people call you a troll is because that’s what you are. You have no respect for the writers and commenters on this site.

    And thanks to you most people on this site are heartily sick of the whole subject. Is that what you were aiming for?

  118. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:20 pm  

    There’s another use of the term “politically correct” and which refers to the practise by politicians or media sources of using certain misleading forms of expression to describe an underlying politically inconvenient reality, terms like “collateral damage” or “friendly fire”. The coverage of conflicts like Iraq, Afghanistan, and yes I/P is absolutely rife with these kinds of PC expression. Personally I find this form of PC far more pervasive, insidious and morally offensive than the other kind.

  119. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:21 pm  

    Finally, do we really want to live in a world without comedy and tradition? Because that is the flipside to PC perfection?
    Do I give a toss if the dummy on top of the bonfire is a catholic?
    Do we want to ban festivals with staged battles between moors and christians all over Spain?
    Do we want to change shylock into a non-jewish brush salesman?
    Can I not take the piss if a black women insists on calling her son Adidas?

  120. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:23 pm  

    If anyone can hear me above the din, I’m all ears.

  121. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:24 pm  

    Anas, you have very occasional moments when you talk about something that isn’t I/P and when you do no one complains because they’re glad for the break.

    Come on, that’s unfair.

  122. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:26 pm  

    “Can I not take the piss if a black women insists on calling her son Adidas?”

    I do hope you made that up. It is a joke?

    Obviously you do not want the Moors and Christian festivals banned as that must be a huge portion of your income.

  123. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:28 pm  

    Obviously you do not want the Moors and Christian festivals banned as that must be a huge portion of your income.

    What you mean?

  124. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:40 pm  

    You just barge into threads on a completely unrelated topic and start ranting as if no one was talking about anything else.

    Hardly. Most of the “ranting” as you put it is me defending what I’ve said from the usually unfounded criticisms of others. If I was such a massive troll surely a large part of my motivation would be to provoke a certain kind of reaction from others. Therefore if people just ignored my I/P comments, which are hardly disruptive in themselves, my trollish satsifaction levels would go down to zero and I’d just toddle off to some other forum to annoy other poor unsuspecting fools.

  125. Jai — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:51 pm  

    So how’s everyone doing with the Tequila shots so far ? Is the Mariachi band playing at full volume yet ?

    Anas,

    =>”If I was such a massive troll surely a large part of my motivation would be to provoke a certain kind of reaction from others.”

    Post #61 was uncalled for and a pretty nasty tactic to use against a 60-something Jewish woman in the middle of a discussion about an entirely-unrelated topic. Either it was a misguided off-the-cuff remark or you were deliberately trying to bait her. If it’s the latter, then shame on you for stooping to such behaviour; if you genuinely believe her to be a nice person (as you’ve mentioned earlier on this thread), then at least have a little more respect for someone who is presumably old enough to be your mother.

    =>”I stand by my comment, if it seems crude or vulgar it’s only because it reflects a situation that is such.”

    Then rise above it and take the moral high ground in your own conduct and tactics, otherwise you undermine your cause as a result of your own behaviour. The same way that Utbah’s aggression and foul-mouthed abuse on this thread undermines Islam’s credibility in the eyes of others, especially if he is promoting himself as a “true” Muslim and an accurate representation of the faith’s “true” adherents.

    =>”No, but you’re probably quite happy to keep quiet about it happening.”

    Don’t resort to strawman arguments.

  126. Katy — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:54 pm  

    Well Chairwoman, if young British Jews are feeling intimidated in Britain they can always join the Israeli army and shoot some Arab women and children to let off a bit of steam

    That was you “defending” yourself, was it? Jagdeep nailed you on that one, didn’t he?

    The problem you have, Anas, is that this very thread flatly contradicts what you’ve just said. And there are hundreds of other comments threads on this site which flatly contradict what you’ve just said. You have a problem. People are sick of it. Deal with it.

  127. Jai — on 23rd November, 2006 at 6:58 pm  

    Jagdeep & Funkg,

    re: #59/60 & #61

    I guess you’re right about retaliating in kind or “success” being the sweetest revenge of all. It does, however, become an even more worrying matter when it comes to how older-generation Asian parents should deal with being on the receiving end of such abuse. The vibe has become noticeably colder post-9/11 and especially after 7/7; God knows what will happen if there’s another really major terrorist outrage. We’re presumably young, fit, and (if required) aggressive enough to be able to handle the consequences, but the average Asian uncle & auntie is often (not always) a different matter. They’re frequently soft targets for the cowards who may choose to hassle them instead.

  128. Jai — on 23rd November, 2006 at 7:04 pm  

    El Cid,

    =>”But then thought mohren — that sounds moreno, which means tanned or dark in Spanish.”

    That’s interesting. I wonder if new Bond girl Caterina Murino’s surname is connected to that (yes I know she’s Italian).

    And presumably, in Spain the term “moreno” is derived from “Moor” (or some variation of it) ? That would make sense.

    Shame there hasn’t been a weekend thread recently, by the way — speaking of superhot Caterina Murino, I saw Casino Royale recently. No doubt the 007 aficionados on PP have a few things to say about it.

  129. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 7:06 pm  

    That’s my point K, if I was such a big troll, surely the wisest thing would have been to ignore, or even delete that one comment. Most of the I/P related stuff in this thread, and on most of the other offending threads, has indeed been me defending comments and myself from accusations of racism from people like Jaggy D. If it’s volume that’s bothering you then you can’t just blame me for that.

    It’s weird I have posted in other places where I can mention I/P where it isn’t directly relevant and I don’t get about 20 posts telling me I’m a racist and obsessed — and no I’m not talking about the MPACuk forum, or some jihadi website. And again, I often post irrelevant comments on other topics here, no one even notices.

  130. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 7:08 pm  

    And utbah seems like a cool guy I don’t know what everyone has against him.

  131. Katy — on 23rd November, 2006 at 7:12 pm  

    I suppose the reason I’m not ignoring you, Anas, is that there comes a point when I just can’t listen to someone – troll or no troll – talking bullshit without pointing out that it’s bullshit.

  132. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 7:16 pm  

    Anas
    Please drop the issue. In truth your posts that are not about I/P are quite good however you are guilty of being a broken record. Post 61 was just gratuitous.

    I also have no problem with Utbah as he has quoted me on his site. He does have a sense of humour which is unusual for a jihadi. He also likes Lost.

  133. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 7:18 pm  

    Well, sometimes I just have to say it like I mean it, and if that makes me unpopular or a troll, so be it. It’s better than being…a politician.

  134. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 7:27 pm  

    Katy as an admin here you’re perfectly entitled to delete what I write or even ban me. I appreciate that’s one of the conditions of posting here.

    Like you say maybe I’m not the best judge of my supposedly obsessive nature, I accept that. So I will fully understand if you choose to exercise your privileges in future.

    From my own perspective, yes, #61 was offensive especially to Chairwoman and I did debate with myself before posting it, but in the end I thought it was justifiable. I think I have justified myself appropriately above.

  135. sabinaahmed — on 23rd November, 2006 at 8:04 pm  

    Katy
    Are you going to start a nice weekend thread? We havent had a really fun thread for couple of weeks. Some have been great entertainment for me,even if am having a sh…weekend ,reading fun postings cheers me up.Beside we need some fresh air and a bit of fun here.
    Thanks.

  136. Don — on 23rd November, 2006 at 8:11 pm  

    FFS,

    Let’s just talk about Lost for a bit. Locke, eh? That’s where the main problem is going to come from …

  137. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 8:13 pm  
  138. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 8:14 pm  

    ?

  139. Chairwoman — on 23rd November, 2006 at 8:27 pm  

    Well I’m off to watch double Law and Order.

    Anas – Followed the link. IMHO all other issues aside, none of those people are remotely amusing.

  140. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 8:31 pm  

    yeah, maybe you were right leon

  141. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 9:10 pm  

    Er…On reflection and at the risk of prolonging this — and making myself look like even more of an attention seeking c**t — I think Jai was right (post #125): although I think the content of my post was fair enough it was extremely disrespectful to target it towards Chairwoman. I know I’d be unhappy if someone spoke like that towards my mother. I mean, disrespect towards your elders, not very Islamic is it? Not very nice in anyone’s book in fact. And it’s especially not nice given that CW said she didn’t want to discuss I/P on this forum anymore. So, I do apologise on that count.

    In the future I will direct any I/P related invective at Mirax, who kindly suggested herself as a possible target, or Jagdeep.

  142. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 9:21 pm  

    Jees Anas,
    That’s some discourse.
    Methinks ol Suleiman has a lot of time on his hands.
    Don’t get me wrong, he makes some good points.
    We do have to make sure the pendulum doesn’t swing too much the other way. But it’s a bit like the Taliban banning music and kites.
    Shall we just ban comedy?

  143. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 9:35 pm  

    If I had a gun and two bullets and Bin Laden, Kim Jong Il and Jimmy Carr were standing in front of me I’d shoot Jimmy Carr twice.

  144. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 9:39 pm  

    See that was a very distasteful joke — if indeed it qualifies as such — but was it politically incorrect or not?

  145. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 9:45 pm  

    I don’t know. But was it funny?

  146. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 9:58 pm  

    Jai, yes, I guess moreno does come from moor, or moro
    They were there for 800 years or so after all.
    It’s a big part of Spain’s history and culture.

  147. soru — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:28 pm  

    I thought dark spanish beer was called negra?

  148. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:32 pm  

    I believe that black rum is called negra.

  149. Jagdeep — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:44 pm  

    making myself look like even more of an attention seeking c**t

    Ahh well done Anas, you have correctly identified the problem, there is hope for you yet.

    In the future I will direct any I/P related invective at Mirax, who kindly suggested herself as a possible target, or Jagdeep

    Here’s a thought — any time you feel your troll dysentry coming along in a thread that has nothing to do with whatever, stand in front of the mirror and repeat the words you said that I have italicised in bold at the start of this post 100 times. If it fails to calm you down, do thirty squat thrusts. Failing that, shoot away, we dont want you to explode :-)

    Alternatively, peruse one of the other billion or so websites in which you will find congenial company for your thoughts. Or don’t direct your expressions to any one person in particular, just express them to the Haggis God of Drumchapel or whoever. And you should not sulk towards me I even stood up for you when someone called you a dick yesterday.

  150. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:51 pm  

    It is Soru, correct
    Unrefined tobacco like Ducados, or Gauloise, is also called negro.
    It does what it says on the tin.
    You do realise negro/negra just means the colour black, right?
    Since cerveza is a feminine word, negra rather than negro is used.
    There is also a rum from Guadalupe called Negrita
    http://www.productsfromspain.net/Buy_Rum_from_Guadalupe/Buy_Rhum_Negrita_Bardinet_Dorado_Rum.html
    It’s not an unflaterring picture, so it passes my PC test

  151. Jagdeep — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:55 pm  

    God knows what will happen if there’s another really major terrorist outrage. We’re presumably young, fit, and (if required) aggressive enough to be able to handle the consequences, but the average Asian uncle & auntie is often (not always) a different matter. They’re frequently soft targets for the cowards who may choose to hassle them instead.

    Jai, I already think about things like that. The next time an angry man upset because of this and that decides to strike a blow for justice by blowing himself up next to sixty innocent people, everyone in my family is getting told to lay low and not let any of the elders or anyone go out alone, especially my relatives that live in mostly white areas. Keep them in lockdown at least in the immediate aftermath. I had an uncle who was abused after 7/7 up in Newcastle. Oh what great thinsg we have to look forward to in life.

  152. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 11:03 pm  

    However, these sweets from Spain don’t pass my PC test:
    http://moon.ap.teacup.com/caminito/timg/middle_1152625357.jpg

  153. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 11:10 pm  

    http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,1506576,00.html

    This definitely fails any test going nevermind a PC test.

  154. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 11:19 pm  

    Hey I don’t sulk. I’m a happy-go-lucky sort of a guy.

  155. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 11:21 pm  

    The challenge is to define the criteria by which things are deemed unaccetably un-PC or not.
    My initial stab at this is what I call the mate test.
    If you have a black or brown or white or muslim or christian or sikh, etc, friend who would be offended by a joke/observation/image/whatever… then it’s the wrong side of PC. After all, with strangers there can be misunderstandings.
    It’s not a perfect criteria, but it’s a start, no?
    Take my light-hearted Romulan/cloaking device observation the other day. I wouldn’t call felow PPicklers mates, but I got away with it because there was certain sense of familiarity that indicated that my intentions weren’t iffy.
    You could legitmately point out that not wanting to offend was hardly the basis for a progressive value system. And you’d be right. But we surely need to get away from futile semantic dong-dongs about what is PC and what is un-PC.
    If I had Suleiman’s time, maybe I could come up with something that was more intellectually robust.

  156. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 11:22 pm  

    I meant DING-dongs, of course

  157. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 11:30 pm  

    Hey. Zin Zin, I would appreciate an explanation of your moors and christians comment. I still don’t get it

  158. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 11:35 pm  

    Sore, in case there is any misunderstanding, the Austrian beer is question wasn’t a stout.

  159. El Cid — on 23rd November, 2006 at 11:36 pm  

    I mean Soru

  160. Clairwil — on 24th November, 2006 at 12:03 am  

    Miraxx – There’s a difference between acknowledging how things are and whining.

    Indeed there is Chairwoman. In the last ten years my mother has made numerous anti-Pakistani and anti-Muslim remarks and is amazed that anyone challenges her on it. Similarly her first remark when I went to work for a company that was started by Jews was ‘O your in the lap of the Jews -watch yourself’. That said I should point out that my mother is of immigrant stock herself and cried the length of Auschwitz when we visited it. There are worse places to be a minority than the UK but that doesn’t make it perfect.

    Anas,
    You make me shake my head. On the I/P question my sympathies veer towards Palestine though I do acknowledge the right of Israel to exist. However I’m baffled by all this apartheid state stuff. I’m also puzzled as to why no-one is seems to acknowledge that the Palestinians have been ill-served by their leadership. It’s very easy to treat this as poor, innocent Palestine oppressed by big bad Israel. Lord knows the Israelis make it easy. However one only has to look at Northern Ireland to see the damage done by only acknowledging the other side’s atrocities and forgetting your own. The psychic scars left by such conflicts take hundreds of years to heal, we outsiders should be very wary of stoking the flames.

  161. Sahil — on 24th November, 2006 at 12:09 am  

    Hey Anas, work this one out. I have deep sympathy for Palestinians, and yet I have deep sympathy for Israelis. Why would I have such feelings? Maybe becuase I believe in general humanity, and that I believe that war turns people into animals. Do I blame Avi or Ali, no I blame the politics. Grow up. BTW have you ever been to Palestine, let alone out of Glasgow?

  162. Katy — on 24th November, 2006 at 12:37 am  

    I think I’ve had enough of Pickled Politics for a bit.

  163. Anas — on 24th November, 2006 at 12:55 am  

    Clairwill and Sahil do you really want me to respond to your points in any depth? It’s just that I don’t think it would make me very popular in here given that this isn’t really a thread about I/P and it seems I have to be more particular with my trolling.

    If you want I’ll post something on my blog some time tommorow (sleepy time for me right now) in reply and link to it here — if that’s OK. If you don’t want, fair enough.

  164. Anas — on 24th November, 2006 at 1:02 am  

    I think I’ve had enough of Pickled Politics for a bit.

    :( I hope that wasn’t my doing.

  165. Sunny — on 24th November, 2006 at 1:31 am  

    Anas – it isn’t unfair, you go on about I/P as if the whole fucking world revolves around it. And Utbah, well he’s just a nutcase. The fool has a whole section dedicated to taunting me, as if I’m going to take the bait. Enough already, it kills conversation on other threads and makes even more reluctant to start a topic on it. Write about it on your own blog!

    As for the debate, we lost :(
    Outflanked – they made it all about freedom of speech and I didn’t pre-empt that. Doh. But my public speaking is getting better.

  166. Leon — on 24th November, 2006 at 10:32 am  

    don’t close it yet Leon

    Heh, I don’t have the power too and wouldn’t if I did on a thread I didn’t post.

  167. Jagdeep — on 24th November, 2006 at 11:01 am  

    Don’t take a break Katy, this place is a lesser place without you and Chairwoman. Don’t let yourself get intimidated by a bully.

  168. Katy — on 24th November, 2006 at 2:53 pm  

    Thanks, Jagdeep :-)

  169. Chairwoman — on 24th November, 2006 at 3:15 pm  

    Me too:-)

  170. Leon — on 24th November, 2006 at 3:26 pm  

    Aha! Will re-post here what I wrote on Katy’s:

    If you’re busy or bored with PP fair enough but if (as I suspect) you feel excluded in some form I think it would be a great shame if you left us.

    You’re one of the most committed contributors on here, always thought provoking, greatly insightful and a much needed balance to the typical political slants at work here. I know we haven’t always seen eye to eye but on a personal level I’d miss your postings.

    Seriously re-consider leaving.

    Same goes for you CW. I don’t think it’d be right if either of you felt you had to post less/leave/kill anaskoff complain about trolling as much.

  171. William — on 24th November, 2006 at 7:48 pm  

    El Cid 113

    Another little curiosity from myself.

    When you talk of the word Yiddo. I remember being called yiddo quite well in about 1970 it was a term used by skinheads to describe and taunt hippies with possbly before they chased them and beat them up (usually it was just a taunt)

    I discovered later it was term for Jews. How did skinheads get to use it. It’s a weird world sometimes!!

  172. Anas — on 26th November, 2006 at 8:14 pm  

    Clarwill and Sahil I took your silence to mean you wanted me to write a long blogpiece about why I feel that my indignation is justified. So that is what I did and here it is.

  173. Jagdeep — on 26th November, 2006 at 8:15 pm  

    Hooray!

  174. memin — on 2nd December, 2006 at 7:00 am  

    esto apesta nadie me pudo dar una buena explicacion hacerca de que es political corectness pero en fin me doy cuenta que todos son una bola de weyes que se la pasan hablando de cuando sus mamas les cambiaban los pañales bueno en fin me retiro no sin antes mencionar que viva mexico!!!!!!

  175. Anas — on 2nd December, 2006 at 4:09 pm  

    translation?

  176. Don — on 2nd December, 2006 at 4:12 pm  

    According to Babel fish;

    this stinks out nobody could give to a good explanation hacerca me that corectness is political but in aim I realize that all are a ball of weyes that go it speaking of when their breasts changed the diapers to them good in aim I retire to me before not without mentioning that!!!!!! lives mexico

  177. El Cid — on 2nd December, 2006 at 5:46 pm  

    bola de weyes — that’s a new one for me. certainly mexican spanish rather than spanish spanish. reckon it’s like ‘bunch of idiots’.
    he/she is saying that we haven’t adequetely explained what political correctness means and that he has therefore come to the conclusion that we are a bunch of idiots that like to spend our time talking shit. viva mexico!
    charming

  178. Refresh — on 2nd December, 2006 at 10:26 pm  

    She might have a point.

  179. Mathew — on 12th December, 2006 at 5:41 pm  

    Multiculturalism and Political correctness stinks… because they are

    fundamentally wrong and detrimental to any healthy society.

    find out:
    http://npcp.info

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