The initial responses


by Sunny
22nd November, 2006 at 5:10 am    

Unsurprisingly there have been two kinds of responses to the agenda published by the New Generation Network.

1) That we simply to install ourselves as alternative “community leaders” or push someone else in place. And that we don’t want minority groups to be organised. This completely misses the central points made in the manifesto. We don’t want to see anyone claiming to represent vast swathes of people without a democratic mandate. If we started saying we represent other people, or that we want someone else to be in their place – then it would be hypocritical. We have stated clearly we want to see organisations designated and treated as lobby groups not “representatives”.

In addition to the obvious point that they cannot hope to represent contradictory points of view, we have also laid out why this system serves only to help the government in politicising race and religion, and in shifting responsibility. And yet, Inayat Bunglawala and Salma Yaqoob have studiously avoided those points.

2) Gary Younge says we should not be attacking “our own” when the priority should be white racists. Again, I believe this is a fatal flaw in the present day anti-racist movement. How can you hope to demand equality and social justice and bring community cohesion when you are allying yourself with people who don’t have that agenda?

The BNP, insitutional racism and soft racism are absolutely a major issue. But the platform is anti-racism, anti-bigotry and anti-prejudice. That cannot be shared with those who do not espouse those values completely. Otherwise you lose your direction and fail miserably.

Lastly, I also intend to respond to Frank Fisher’s article later on the difference between race and religion. That is an interesting discussion in itself.


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  1. Serious Golmal » A New Agenda

    [...] Other responses are rounded up and being discussed here. [...]




  1. Nick — on 22nd November, 2006 at 8:01 am  

    I think your point about “democratic mandate” is key Sunny. This places your thinking in what could be called the “post-progressive” camp. What’s a “post” progressive? Well someone who doesn’t continue to inhabit the psychological ghetto where one’s identity as a Briton is defined by race or ethnicity, or indeed 1980s-style factional politics like Mr Younge. These self-styed progressives are increasingly sounding somewhat regressive.

    As a white, “cultural Christian” (and why shouldn’t I be, everybody seems to be something these days) it’s easy for me to be relaxed about racism, which I appreciate is still a very live issue, but we also need to start talking about what unites our multi-ethnic society rather than what divides it.

    And I don’t mean just wishy washy stuff – freedom of speech for example is an explosive issue and a “freedom” we have yet to achieve here. It’s not a “political” manifesto I know, but if it was, I would personally like to see the disestablishment of the church and state and an end to state funding of all religious schools – not because I am against religion (I’m religious!) but because its about building a new Britain not on hypocrisy but clarity, community and equality.

  2. Chairwoman — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:22 am  

    I’ve just read Bunglawala’s post on CIF, and the comments. Perhaps I’m considerably more stupid than I thought I was, but how did this become a debate solely about Muslim orgsanisations?

  3. Chairwoman — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:22 am  

    Is it the Israel/Palesine nouveau?

  4. sabinaahmed — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:57 am  

    Am glad you said that Chairwoman,I too thought that, but thought asking will reinforce my reputation for being stupid!

    There are so many articles now on CIF, everyone trumpeting their own “agenda” that it is drowning out the main message.

  5. Chairwoman — on 22nd November, 2006 at 11:24 am  

    We can be stupid together :-)

  6. Jagdeep — on 22nd November, 2006 at 11:25 am  

    Munira Mirza has written an excellent article

  7. Chairwoman — on 22nd November, 2006 at 11:42 am  

    Sabinaahmed – I’ve actually stopped reading CIF (except for specified articles) as it not only depressed me, but sometimes literally made my blood pressure soar!

  8. Utbag — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:03 pm  

    Will you be responding to Inayat’s questions? Also, I made a contribution but it looks like some people didn’t like it, to censored me, so much for freedom of speech.

    Anyway, what I was saying on CiF, is that you chose the worst people from the Muslim’s. Seriously, I read the manifesto and when I came across the same, Oh thought oh shit, sodd this. With half baked Muslims like Yasmin and Zari, who lick the boots of their masters so much that whatever they say don’t/can’t represent the views of any Muslim apart from their masters.

    Also, I see the same mentality being pushed here with the American Progressive “Muslims”, the one’s who go against the basic tenants of Islam and you expect Muslims to listen to you? And The Rand Report rings a bell.

    I also asked if this another government set up just like Sufi “Muslim” Council? Will you be getting funding from them?

  9. Utbah — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:03 pm  

    lol, Utbag? It’s bloody Utbah. Silly me :p

  10. miraxx — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:11 pm  

    >>Munira Mirza has written an excellent article

    She has a habit of doing that. Hari Kunzuru’s article is very good too. Sunny is holding up well and the reactions he refers to were beyond predictable, esp reaction #1. He has been frequently accused of turf-encroaching by religious/community reps in the past. It is not difficult to understand why the accusation recurs. Sunny works from a communal corner himself – as the ‘asian’ progressive and media voice
    and has often gone beyond speaking for himself and only himself, in fact launching PP as a ‘movement’ in the past and now the NGN. Sunder Katwala of the Fabian Society for eg does not suffer from this disadvantage.

    I have questioned Sunny on this myself and now am beginining to understand his position, or at least, am prepared to accept it at face value. The Sikh federation, muslim reps and the hindu reps – the last have been sleeping on the job!- will quite likely never see Hundal as anything other than competition.

    Bunglawala tanked with that rather sinister godfather quote btw. That man’s geeky beyond redemption.

  11. Jagdeep — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:17 pm  

    Inayat’s reference to the Godfather managed to be simultaneously hilarious, pompous, slightly sinister, ill suited to the point he wanted to make, and a grandiose example of psychological projection — the precise reason why people like him do get personal is because the ‘business’ side of things raised in this manifesto are accurate.

    The hysteria of Bunglawala, Utbag and others, who act as if this is a grandiose project to undermine Islam, really just shows the paranoia and communalist mind at its most crude and limited — references to those they disagree with (see Utbag’s post above) to certain Muslims being ‘bootlickers’ of their ‘masters’. How pathetic.

    Unable to comprehend the proposition that communalist bodies should be interrogated, and that a much more wide raging debate on identity politics across race and faith communities has to be had — to some it is no less than the apocalypse arriving! Oh Utbag! Yasmin Alibhai Brown is squatting with the ‘Masters’ to personally destroy you! Oh what are we going to do! :-)

    Anyway, the debate is lively and going well, good thing indeed. Stay in chardi kalaa Sunny.

  12. miraxx — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:17 pm  

    Utbah’s rant against Yasmin AB and Ziauddin S as half-baked muslims with no ‘cred in the community’ – already a recurring theme on CiF posts from certain communalists- shows how much work lies before the NGN. Have fun, Sunny!

  13. Utbah — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:26 pm  

    Oh Juggy: Look at the Rand Report, it was published by a Right Wing American Think Tank.

    I agree with much of the stuff and I will hold Sunny accountable (I have in the past but he has slid away).

    I have a few example’s where the Zionist Community attack Art, Academic’s, Cartoons etc etc.

    The Post can be found here with all relevant information but not on a single one Sunny has defended those people who were at the receiving end of the smear campaign (See post http://jihadandthecity.wordpress.com/2006/08/29/sunny-defender-of-freedom-of-speech/ )

    If Sunny had gone to more prominent Muslims, he would have had a leg to stand on, but unfortunately the “Sunny’s Funny Group Leader” won’t get much respect from the Muslims.

  14. miraxx — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:26 pm  

    yeahh, the expectation that anyone of the same race/religion who departs from the script of ‘unity’ is a bootlicker, self-hater or house slave type has to be challenged. Often it is not. Condi Rice, Ayaan Hirsi Ali deserve to be individuals before anthing else. PP writers lose the plot on this as much as Utbah.

  15. Jagdeep — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:27 pm  

    In many ways the responses have highlighted the accuracy of something Munira Mirza says —-

    The most pernicious effect of this new racial thinking is how it fosters tribalism between ethnic and religious groups. They end up competing for resources on the basis that they are more excluded and vulnerable than others. Some Muslim lobby groups have argued that Christian groups already have public funding for their schools and services so they should too. In response, there are now Hindu and Sikh organisations demanding their own concessions lest they feel left out.

    It is impossible to conceive that those of this mindset would see any intervention that sought to interrogate them as anything other than ‘competition’, conspiracy, black magic, if it was fronted by an Asian or non Asian. The point is, they only have one mode — from the trenches, and attack, us versus them, fight the outsider, don’t take criticism — ever.

  16. Utbah — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:29 pm  

    miraxx: Okay, go to Ummah.Com, YoungMuslims, MPACUK Discussions board and bring me 25 YOUNG Muslims who agree with him.

    That’s my challenge to you.

  17. Utbah — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:32 pm  

    yeahh, the expectation that anyone of the same race/religion who departs from the script of ‘unity’ is a bootlicker, self-hater or house slave type has to be challenged. Often it is not. Condi Rice, Ayaan Hirsi Ali deserve to be individuals before anthing else. PP writers lose the plot on this as much as Utbah. Well duh! Dumbo, Anyone who goes against the basic tenants of his faith, politics, ideology is no long within that group.

    If those individuals who go against the basic agreemnt of Sunny’s Funny Group he/she won’t be in his funny group.

  18. Jagdeep — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:33 pm  

    Utbag — all those Uncle Toms stabbing you in the back, behind the wardrobe, hiding under the sofa waiting to shake their Zionist genitals at you — the world is indeed a tough place.

    Listen, the point is, Sunny is not making a play for leadership of Muslims — he is saying that communalism is something that should be critiqued, that communal leaders should be interrogated, that sectarian agendas in society can be very divisive, that there are issues around how people are represented and that government and the media should do more to be sceptical about representational claims by all communalist organisations.

    So your basic premise has more to do with your terror of the cackling Muslim Uncle Toms sneaking into your bedroom at night and putting itching powder in your underpants in order to spite you and destroy Islam in Britain, than it is in the substantial points and issues that the manifesto raises.

  19. miraxx — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:35 pm  

    er, if you don’t mind utbah, I can’t be arsed. I don’t accept challenges on non issues from half-baked thinkers like yourself.

  20. miraxx — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:37 pm  

    >>Sunny is not making a play for leadership of Muslims

    Maybe that’s the way to neutralise the Hundal factor? Sunny for Grand Imam of the UK!

  21. Utbah — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:42 pm  

    Juggy: I do not disagree with that, but Sunny could have gone about this a much more better way rather than bringing any tom, dick and harry on his bandwagon of “Wanab Famous People”.

    You ask any Muslim if they believe the War on terror is a war on Islam and they will tell you. When they see Armies going into Muslim Lands raping it’s land, constant media attacks, on Muslim Organizations, Muslims etc, they question everything. But, I guess you have still not come across the RAND Report, so before you send me your conspiracy theories read it and then comment.

    miraxx: haha, see I told you there is no Muslim which will support these boot licking individuals within the Next Generation of Muslims

  22. Utbah — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:43 pm  

    >>Maybe that’s the way to neutralise the Hundal factor? Sunny for Grand Imam of the UK!

    hehe Molana Sunny. I guess what his first commandment will be? Ban Hizb ut Tahrir. Limited the free speech of Muslims.

  23. Jagdeep — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:50 pm  

    Utbag —- if you do not disagree with that, what the hell are you having a nervous breakdown about? Is it simply the presence of certain individuals who you believe are ‘bad Muslims’ as signatories? Grow up. It’s more about policing Muslims for you, isnt it?

  24. miraxx — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:51 pm  

    >>Limited the free speech of Muslims.

    I’m still chuckling over that one, Utbah. What would we do without the likes of you and Bikki for entertainment hereabouts?

  25. sabinaahmed — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:53 pm  

    The notion that Muslims are a homogeneous group is the most irritating thing.And who are these “prominent”muslims?And what gives them the authority to speak for all of us,who are varied in their thinking, principles and deeds and dont want to conform a set way of thinking.
    Yasmin Alibhai,if anything, has been very outspoken and critical of the government,foreign policy and just went on and on about anything which annoyed her. After 9/11 she was the one who questioned the US high commissioner on their forgein policy, for which she was highly criticised.It was a time when the world was so sympathetic with America.
    She has also upset lots of BBC viewers by being on Question Time and asking frank and difficult questions.
    What makes someone a “good”muslim, as opposed to a good citizen/human beig?And why should this be a qualification to have authority to speak for others?

  26. Jagdeep — on 22nd November, 2006 at 12:59 pm  

    To be honest, I think that Utbah has a kernel of truth in his position, it’s just that he expresses it very narrowly. Take away the stupid paranoia and desire to police Muslims and grade Muslims like Yazza as apostates or Super-Muslims, he is saying that it would be a good thing for the NGN to take their message out to a wider section of society than the Guardian pages and get the ideas out amongst the kind of people that don’t quaff red wine in Notting Hill with Salman Rushdie and Tarquin Montague-Smythe. Well it’s a caricature, but you know what I mean. And I’m sure that Hundal will make an effort to do that in the future.

  27. bananabrain — on 22nd November, 2006 at 1:07 pm  

    how do you rape land, exactly? i only ask because it gets said a lot.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  28. Chairwoman — on 22nd November, 2006 at 1:18 pm  

    banabrain – By destroying greenhouses that could produce food to feed a nation.

  29. Douglas Clark — on 22nd November, 2006 at 1:18 pm  

    bananabrain,

    I imagine you’d have to get down and dirty with it :)

    I’ll get my coat.

  30. Chairwoman — on 22nd November, 2006 at 1:20 pm  

    utbag – why don’t you pack your anti Jewish prejudices in your suitcase and slope off to your like minded friends.

  31. Utbah — on 22nd November, 2006 at 2:03 pm  

    WTF? You see there comes the fucking Pro-Zionist Brigade.

    I have not said a single word against the Jewish Community, I work, live with members of the Jewish Community.

    Also, don’t tell me Zionists are Jews. They bloody aren’t there are Christian ZIonists & Hindu Zionist (are along their way BJP & Co)

    Now, Sabina. Which Mosque do your pray at? Is the Imam not your leader? I don’t know why everyone is bashing Muslims about Leaders in our Communities.

    Well what about the JBOD? MCB & JBOD members are elected the same method, and your telling me MCB are not representative of the Muslim Community? Oh fuck off and get off your high horse.

    This “Progressive Movement” which Sunny is on about has more shit in it’s shadow’s than Sunny can admit.

  32. Utbah — on 22nd November, 2006 at 2:06 pm  

    Also to ChairWoman: All I asked from Sunny was to be FAIR & HONEST in his approach. Why is he shouting about the “bads” in the Muslim Community while turning the blind eye in the Zionist Community who do even more shit than Muslims do.

    If he (sunny) wants to be taken serious and not like a fucking joker, let him come out and condemn all Smear Campaigns against Muslims & None Muslims alike who get tarnished because they hate to see children being murdered by the Neo-ZioNazi Army.

  33. Jagdeep — on 22nd November, 2006 at 2:20 pm  

    Utbag, control yourself, Yazza has written on CiF.

  34. soru — on 22nd November, 2006 at 2:21 pm  

    ‘They bloody aren’t there are Christian ZIonists & Hindu Zionist (are along their way BJP & Co)’

    By that defintion, there are also plenty of secular and christian Islamists, in both the UK Foreign Office and far left groups like Respect.

    Can you see the advantage of seperating a political position (‘Isreal should exist’/'a Caliphate should exist’, ‘a war on Terror is a war on Islam’/'a war on Israel is a War on Jews’) from a religion?

  35. Chris — on 22nd November, 2006 at 2:31 pm  

    Neo-ZioNzai : you should copyright that.
    It’s the best yet.

  36. Chris — on 22nd November, 2006 at 2:31 pm  

    Neo-ZioNazi : you should copyright that.
    It’s the best yet.

  37. miraxx — on 22nd November, 2006 at 2:34 pm  

    I am hugely enjoying the NGN spate of articles on CiF; guns drawn and blazin away at the Guardian’s assorted crew of Islamists. The commentators seem to be in agreement too and there is practically none of the hostility – from non-muslims -that is usually directed at Bodi, Bunglawala, Ghannoushi et al.

  38. Chris — on 22nd November, 2006 at 2:36 pm  

    The only missing link is Faisal Bodi – where has he gone? (Not that many are complaining…)

  39. miraxx — on 22nd November, 2006 at 2:39 pm  

    >>Neo-ZioNazi : you should copyright that.

    And your banner image of the zionazi’s live immolation of an innocent palestinian babe. Refreshing change from the tedious kids’ blood in matzoballs’ genre, Utbah. Keep up the good work.

  40. Electro — on 22nd November, 2006 at 3:07 pm  

    If he (sunny) wants to be taken serious and not like a fucking joker, let him come out and condemn all Smear Campaigns against Muslims & None Muslims alike who get tarnished because they hate to see children being murdered by the Neo-ZioNazi Army.

    Do you ever breathe through the nose Utbah? That kind of hare-trigger indignation destroys your credibility and portrays you as someone incapable of reasoned compromise and discussion.

    Neo-ZioNazi Army!!?? Gimmie a break darlin’

  41. Sunny — on 22nd November, 2006 at 4:00 pm  

    Hello, a few responses:

    but how did this become a debate solely about Muslim orgsanisations?

    Unfortunately Radio 4 set the agenda with this. I told them in advance that our gripe was more against the Labour party system which has developed this, but they still wanted a slagging match.

    I’ve had angry emails from Hindu and Sikh groups, just to let everyone know, so its not just directed at the MCB despite what they want to claim.

    Mirax: Sunny works from a communal corner himself – as the ‘asian’ progressive and media voice

    I don’t know how I work from the communal corner just because I sometimes raise issues about racism or Asian people in the media. That doesn’t mean I want one group to be elevated above another – I have always wanted equality. That is reflected in this manifesto. Just because I write about “brown issues” doesn’t make me communal, those are simply my interests.

    Utbah:
    Will you be responding to Inayat’s questions?
    Already did. The man is confused and does not read what I wrote.

    I see the same mentality being pushed here with the American Progressive “Muslims”, the one’s who go against the basic tenants of Islam and you expect Muslims to listen to you?

    Which is the sort of slur that people such as yourself always push out. Maybe you want to read Desperately Seeking Paradise to see how involved Zia Sardar has been in Muslim politics in this country. He was also involved in drawing up the MCB’s charter when it was launched. So much for “half-baked”.

    won’t get much respect from the Muslims.

    If my aim was to get acceptance from your mates at MPAC then I wouldn’t have done this. But there are plenty of Muslim signatories (from the beginning, and new) who clearly see our call for equality and rejecting prejudice from our minority communities.

    Another point: MPAC is based on challenging the Labour-Mosque leader hierarchy. This is the system that the MCB rides on (who else are its affiliates?) but MPAC stays silent on. We’re just expanding on this – saying the problem isn’t just the Labour-mosque partnership, but the Labour partnership with dodgy Hindu and Sikh groups too. I thought that point would be obvious.

    We are closer to MPAC’s position on some issues that Asghar Bukhari will admit because he loves the MCB too much.

    nd your telling me MCB are not representative of the Muslim Community? Oh fuck off and get off your high horse.

    If you’re going to be an idiot Utbah then I will ban you. Frankly you either learn to control your mouth or you won’t be able to join in at all. It’s that simple.

    There was a recent poll where over 60% of Muslim respondents said they were not represented by the MCB. What more do you want? I know the world you inhabit sees the MCB is protectors of all that is good, but maybe one day you’ll grow out of this myopia. And incidentally, we think the JBOD is as bad as the MCB.

  42. Sahil — on 22nd November, 2006 at 4:15 pm  

    Utbah, who the fuck are you and the MCB to decide who is a ‘true’ muslim. I am not a muslim, but many of my relatives are. However they are not like you and they don’t feel the need to define their Islamic hertiage through shoddy, illiterate non-democratic organisations. If you actually thought about how vast and enriching Islam actually is, you’d realise the diversity and controversy inherent in it. Islam was designed to be ultimately democratic i.e. the quran was supposed to enable anyone to discuss their lives with god, not needing a conduit, like the fucking MCB, or some dickhead mullah who’ll take money to design “Islam” to be whatever HE wants. You really need perspective.

  43. Vikrant Singh — on 22nd November, 2006 at 4:24 pm  

    Sunny dude you’ve become a big star! My aunt mentioned that she heard you on the radio the otherday! N

    Neeways I did read your manifesto (@others: I read it a whole two days b4 u guys boohoo)… I broadly agree with you. Was just going thru Gary Yongue’s piece. I have top say that this BNP centricity of our MSM is counterproductive. In my Asian corner of Leicester BNP hardly existed. It was HSS and Pizza HuT all the waay. Though HSS is as big as HuT, i’ve attended too many of their Shakhas to see that they are as delusional and as virulent as Hutters.

    Good luck to NGN….

    P.S I’ve still not recovered completely, hopefully will be able to resume blogging next week.

  44. El Cid — on 22nd November, 2006 at 4:55 pm  

    I must say as the son of white immigrant I’m a little disappointed by Gary Younge’s simplistic analysis.
    Every attitudinal survey still suggests that the biggest obstacle to intergration remains white racism – I have yet to hear of large numbers of Muslims or black people moving out of an area because white people have moved in.
    Thing is, there’s “white” and then there’s native. There’s also the question of money. And if black and brown (even white) immigrants tend to converge around the same areas, then why shouldn’t natives? I mean what’s techically different?
    Ethnocentric districts exist in almost every conurbation in the world that reflect, at some point in time, tensions caused between an influx of people from outside and the natives — just look at Baghdad and Karachi. Often it’s between people with the same skin colour who just happen to have different customs.
    I KNOW the Spanish can be racist, I KNOW the English can be racist, but I also KNOW that British West Indians and Asians can be racist.
    I’ve fought in pitch battles against NF skinheads in Tottenham and felt a rightious multicultural camaraderie in victory. But I’ve also seen West Indian youths moments later terrorise an Asian shop keeper for his tinned lager and overheard a black mugger refer to a potential victim with the words “No, not her, she’s a sister.”
    Racism works in many ways. The way I see it there are in this world two classes of people: pricks and everyone else.
    I generally like Younge’s writing.
    Hmmm … I hope I’m wrong but I sense some self-hate in his views. He’s clearly a smart cookie but so is Diane Abbott and, when it came to it, look how fast she made sure her kid didn’t mix with fellow blacks.
    I salute you Sunny. What you’re talking about is definitely new.

  45. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 6:19 pm  

    Sunny, I don’t think Gary Yonge is arguing that we shouldn’t be attacking “our own”, rather he’s emphasising that we should get our priorities in order, and that the influence and effect of the BNP and white racism poses far more of a challenge to further integration than HuT, or the government’s exploiting self-appointed representative organisations like the MCB in order to be seen as responsive to ethnic communities.

    Over the past few weeks and months, as the whole multicultural thing has been gaining momentum, the focus has been almost exclusively on “them”, on “their” attitudes towards integration, “their” supposedly anti-social behaviours and customs; and the “they” usually refers to Muslims. Never on “us”; it’s almost as if racism against non-Whites has finally been overcome to the extent that it’s now almost on a par with racism against Whites by non-Whites, that the isolationist attitudes of the majority are no longer problematic enough to elicit any comment in the debates that are being carried on across various media.

    Granted, you’re attempting to challenge some of the policies, and thinking that helps to further instil this sense of “us” and “them” and creates and promotes artificial divisions in society, but I can’t help thinking that as society we haven’t made enough progress with previous fights to the extent that it’s now possible to take a completely new direction. That this new initiative may be used as an excuse for heaping more criticism upon ethnic minority communities: unless enough attention is given to the broader context.

    I was also interested in something you wrote in response to Gary’s blog piece:

    Your point also suggests that the only people we can make a coalition with are the divisive “community leaders” and there is no one else. Very wrong. There is a huge wealth of secular, intelligent and liberal ethnic minority talent out there that we want to ally ourselves with. It’s just maybe they’ve either lost faith in the people claiming to represent them or they don’t have the time.

    I think for your campaign to have any real effect it needs to be effective at a grassroots level and not just amongst the well-educated secular Asian intelligensia. What I’m interested in is how your proposing to carry your message through into more deprived, less salubrious constituencies.

  46. Rav — on 22nd November, 2006 at 6:29 pm  

    Right Anas, so none of the bad attitudes and backward and iniquitousness of religious communal organisations is to be challenged? The massive flaw in your reasoning is that it presumes it is not possible to be both critical of white racism AND communalist politics. Although if you believe that the right way to go is to bring the ‘intifada’ and jihad to the streets of Britain, as some communalist Muslims want to do then you may be in favour of that. Which shows where the stress falls in your real concern for ‘criticism’ against bodies like the MCB.

    The same applies to Sikhs and Hindus who want to filter British life and responsibilities to their own agenda.

    Without criticism all societies and organisations and attitudes become rotten. Calling for a shutting down of debate allows attitudes and people to fester and that is partially why we are in the position we are in right now.

  47. Jai — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:13 pm  

    Utbah sure swears a lot (and generally hurls unnecessary abuse at people) for someone who appears to be claiming to be a “true” Muslim…..

  48. Don — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:47 pm  

    Anas,

    I’d agree that Sunny’s initiative seems to be primarily aimed at realising the relatively untapped power of ‘secular, intelligent and liberal ethnic minority talent’. But that strikes me as an excellent base to build on. Why demand that the group cover all the bases on day one? The signatories don’t strike me as the types who disregard ‘more deprived, less salubrious constituencies’. It’s a statement of principle and a damn good one.

    Rav,

    ‘Although if you believe that the right way to go is to bring the ‘intifada’ and jihad to the streets of Britain, as some communalist Muslims want to do then you may be in favour of that. Which shows where the stress falls in your real concern for ‘criticism’ against bodies like the MCB.’

    Is Anas posting secret comments that I don’t get to see? Because he seems to get accused of a lot of stuff I don’t recognise.

  49. El Cid — on 22nd November, 2006 at 7:52 pm  

    The initiative also cuts across cummunal lines by reaching out to like-minded WME and WWC — or whiteys, if you prefer.

  50. Chairwoman — on 22nd November, 2006 at 8:05 pm  

    I might have this wrong, but I thought that Sunny’s constituency is basically the unrepresentated and disenfranchised British ethnic minorities.

    I didn’t think that it mattered what group or religion one belonged to.

  51. El Cid — on 22nd November, 2006 at 8:20 pm  

    is that addressed to me?

    if it is, then what im trying to say is that it is a very incluisive agenda

  52. Chairwoman — on 22nd November, 2006 at 8:25 pm  

    No, it was pretty general. So many people seem to have a different take on Sunny’s intentions, that I thought I’d join in.

    Yes Rodrigo (if you don’t mind me using your proper name)it is inclusive, and that of course includes you :-)

  53. El Cid — on 22nd November, 2006 at 8:57 pm  

    Rodrigo! LOL

  54. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 9:30 pm  

    Although if you believe that the right way to go is to bring the ‘intifada’ and jihad to the streets of Britain, as some communalist Muslims want to do then you may be in favour of that. Which shows where the stress falls in your real concern for ‘criticism’ against bodies like the MCB.

    WTF?

  55. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 9:35 pm  

    Yes, more intifada and jihad on the streets of Britain, that’ll do the trick. The MCB are nowhere near militant enough. The sooner we get the British Caliphate up and running and enforce shariah law upon these Godless Kafir, the better.

  56. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 9:37 pm  

    I have to admit Richard Littlejohn does that kind of stuff much much better than I ever could.

  57. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 9:41 pm  

    I see Sunny’s been too busy to gloat publically over the whole Ashgar Bukhari/David Irving thing. I bet some of the regulars here were pissing their pants in joy though.

  58. Don — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:01 pm  

    It raised a smile. Particularly the bit where he said he didn’t know who Irving was at the time.

  59. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:05 pm  

    And before anyone asks, no I have never sent David Irving any money myself.

  60. ZinZin — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:06 pm  

    Anas go to serious golmal’s blog. Also Bunglawala has defended Bukhari which makes him a racism denier according to Harry’s place rather ironic to call Bunglawala such a thing when he is part of an organisation that shouts “Islamophobia all” the time.

  61. ZinZin — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:07 pm  

    Anas go to serious golmal’s blog. Also Bunglawala has defended Bukhari which makes him a racism denier according to Harry’s place rather ironic to call Bunglawala such a thing when he is part of an organisation that shouts “Islamophobia” constantly.

  62. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:09 pm  

    should I do it twice?

  63. Sunny — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:10 pm  

    I’ve been too busy to properly write of it, but it only confirms what I said before. And you’re surprised by the revelations where you Anas? I may write about it later, but have bigger fish to fry right now.

  64. ZinZin — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:16 pm  

    As many times as you like

  65. Sunny — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:30 pm  

    rather he’s emphasising that we should get our priorities in order, and that the influence and effect of the BNP and white racism poses far more of a challenge to further integration than HuT, or the government’s exploiting self-appointed representative organisations like the MCB in order to be seen as responsive to ethnic communities.

    There are several points here. Firstly that any anti-prejudice struggle will be hampered if your “opposition” can paint themselves as the victims and point fingers at racists within your own crew. This was probably the primary reason that the NUS had a no-platform-with-racists policy back in the day… and I don’t see why this shouldn’t apply to brown racists.

    Secondly, any anti-prejudice struggle will also falter if the people in your “crew” don’t want solidarity. Are you happy to team up with the RSS/VHP crew Anas? do you think the Sikh Federation like the Hindu Forum? No, they hate them. Do you think either like the MCB? No. so unless we have solidarity on a consistent platform (which means not allying ourselves with anti-Muslim and anti-Hindu/Sikh organisations), we fail.

    Lastly: Gary’s analysis completely misses the havoc in community relations that Hindu/Sikh/Muslim fanatics cause. Vikrant gave the example above. Would you ally yourself with them?

    The point abou reaching to the grass-roots is important, and I have thought about it. Wait for my article on Friday.

  66. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:38 pm  

    Re:Bukhari.

    Come on, it was a youthful indiscretion. We’ve all done things when we were younger that we’re not particularly proud of now — well I haven’t but most of you probably have.

  67. Sid — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:48 pm  

    Like El Cid, I was a bit disappointed with Gary Younge’s response. I have a lot of time for GY, and it would be good to have his impressive ass on our side.

  68. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:52 pm  

    Vikrant is going on his experiences. OK from my own personal experience, living here in Glasgow for 25 years, I’ve had next to zero opportunity to see for myself the disasterous effects that groups like the MCB, or the Hindu Forum, or the Sikh federation have supposedly had on community cohesion.

    I have had plenty of first hand experience of the BNP’s attempts at undermining integration and acceptance of different groups though. That’s the thing: I’m completely new to all these claims people are making about various community groups and self-appointed community leaders. It’s not so much of a thing in Glasgow.

  69. Sid — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:53 pm  
  70. Sunny — on 22nd November, 2006 at 10:58 pm  

    Anas – well read my comment in that article in reply to Gary. I’ve got a million and one examples.

  71. Don — on 22nd November, 2006 at 11:02 pm  

    A scorcher, Sid. I do enjoy a spot of considered venom.

  72. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 11:04 pm  

    See, Sid, even the title of your piece, “MPAC funded Irving” is incorrect, since the incident took place a couple of years before MPAC was founded.

  73. Anas — on 22nd November, 2006 at 11:21 pm  

    I have to say I am swayed in my whole view of this affair by the fact that quite a few of the people engaged in this latest round of MPAC/Bukhari baiting seem to have other quite odious agendas and don’t really seem to be motivated by compassion and sympathy for the victims of the holocaust.

  74. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:02 am  

    I am rather confused Anas by your last post. A lot of people have criticised Bukhari over this as he was supporting Irvings attempt to silence one of his critics who he sued for libel. His own words condemn him.

    Youthful indiscretion? Incorrect title as MPAC did not exist then this is pathetic.

    Damn it Anas your an intelligent man yet you come out with some amazing excuses for him. Read my comments on Golmals blog anti-semitism runs through Bukhari’s like lettering in a stick of rock.

    Do you have an odious agenda?

  75. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:13 am  

    I’m criticising him too: it was a completely moronic thing to do, I don’t believe his excuses that he didn’t know about Irving’s reputation as a holocaust denier for a second, it’s damage limitation. But it was six years ago, and he has since then made his views on anti-semitism clear.

    Like I say I’m sceptical of the intentions of some of those who are trying to play the whole thing up and making it more than it was.

  76. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:23 am  

    Come off it Bukhari wouldn’t pass an Israel test. Although you ask his critics to show compassion for holocaust victims? See the contradiction.

    “Like I say I’m sceptical of the intentions of some of those who are trying to play the whole thing up and making it more than it was.”

    Why not call them Islamophobes and leave it at that.

  77. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:29 am  

    What’s an Israel test?

  78. Don — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:31 am  

    ‘…some of those who are trying to play the whole thing up…’

    Remind me, who raised the topic?

  79. Siddharth — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:33 am  

    Anas

    you’re right. I renamed the post from ‘MPAC fond of Irving’ to ‘MPAC funded Irving’. Sensationalist, possibly. But given that MPAC is a web-based front for Bukhari, and has been used to springboard a lot of his ideas, I think its not unfair to say Bukhari is MPAC.

  80. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:33 am  

    Its an MCB thing an alternative to Islamophobia as a smear. Bunglawala when pushed into a corner by CIF bloggers always smears them as Israel worshippers. It’s quite amusing.

  81. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 12:48 am  

    Lol, Don, fair enough, shot meself in the foot there. But I was expecting it to come up sooner or later on PP, given the proclivities of most of the commenters: it was a pre-emptive strike.

    The Israel test thing sounds quite funny. I was very amused when Sunny claimed that Inayat Bunglawala was in the habit of accusing MCB critics of being Mossad agents. I don’t know how much he goes in for that, but Sunny’s claim had me in hysterics for some reason, I think it was probably the conjunction with Inayat’s photograph at the top of the page.

  82. Utbah — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:16 am  

    Who said MPAC was created by Asghar? Please don’t tell me your source of information is Wikipedia?

    MPACUK was created by a Palestinian. Asghar himself stated this on islam Channel. talk about spreading shit around.

    On the issue of Asghar Bukhari’s Donation (Note, MPACUK was not even created, so I’m not even sure why the hell you tarnish MPAC for it), has learnt from his mistake.

    Those who hate MPAC/Asghar for what it/he stands for, don’t give two shits if he made an honest mistake. At least he admits it and has learnt from the mistake. It’s far better than massacring children in their cots and then blaming it on a “technical fault”. I still have not seen anyone comment on that.

    Only bad Muslim issue’s come on board on this site. Are Pickler’s just here to stir shit up? Isn’t there anything else to report?

  83. ZinZin — on 23rd November, 2006 at 1:22 am  

    Utbah or the primary cause of Islamophobia as he is called up in Leeds.

  84. Douglas Clark — on 23rd November, 2006 at 2:04 am  

    Utbah,

    Surprisingly, I agree with you, to the extent that £60 six years ago, is not the killer point that Harrys Place and some others make it out to be. But you conflate that with a lot of other stuff I can’t subscribe to at all. It is not all tied together in some sort of conspiracy. There is a legitimate question over the role that the government has given, (or maybe the past tense would be more accurate), the MCB.

    Consultation, I would suggest, should be on the broadest basis possible. Not limited to people who may, or may not, represent you. A voice given up to a choir, is an individual voice lost. Don’t lose yours to collectivism.

  85. Anas — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:23 am  

    Brian: Look, you’ve got it all wrong! You don’t NEED to follow ME, you don’t NEED to follow ANYBODY! You’ve got to think for yourselves! You’re ALL individuals!
    The Crowd (in unison): Yes! We’re all individuals!
    Brian: You’re all different!
    The Crowd (in unison): Yes, we ARE all different!
    Man in Crowd: I’m not…
    The Crowd: Shhh!

  86. Douglas Clark — on 23rd November, 2006 at 10:49 am  

    Anas,

    Good one.

    I really must get round to watching The Life of Brian.

  87. Utbah — on 23rd November, 2006 at 9:30 pm  

    “It is not all tied together in some sort of conspiracy.”

    I wouldn’t call it a “conspiracy”, but an attack on a major Muslim Organisation which the Zionist body sees as a threat.

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