But will Muslim leaders condemn….?


by Sunny
16th June, 2010 at 11:07 am    

Weren’t conservatives against this policy of multiculturalism and segregating Muslims into blocks led by community leaders? Oh right, except when Muslims are required to condemn other Muslims for something.
Nile Gardiner at the Telegraph: British Muslim leaders must condemn Islamist anti-troop protests. Will white community leaders also condemn the BNP and EDL? No? Yes! Confused? That’s because most Telegraph writers are un-thinking ideologues.

Gardiner goes on to say:

There is a fundamental difference between legitimate, peaceful protest, and this kind of mob behaviour, that clearly threatens public safety.

To offer a bit of context, it looks like Al-Muhajiroun aka Al-Ghuraaba aka Islam4UK – have now morphed into ‘Muslims Against the Crusade’. The Daily Mail reports that they had a predictable rally against British troops. The rally wasn’t violent really, but as I’ve said before – the right to protest must be protected. Anyway, I like how Gardiner tries to turn it into “mob behaviour” and call for it to be banned. Typical.


              Post to del.icio.us


Filed in: Civil liberties,Muslim,Organisations






48 Comments below   |  

Reactions: Twitter, blogs
  1. Matt

    Completely agree RT @sunny_hundal: Blog post:: But will Muslim leaders condemn….? http://bit.ly/c3JYEC


  2. Arfy

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blog post:: But will Muslim leaders condemn….? http://bit.ly/c3JYEC


  3. Eilidh

    RT @sunny_hundal Pickled Politics » But will Muslim leaders condemn….? http://bit.ly/celh1X


  4. sunny hundal

    Blog post:: But will Muslim leaders condemn….? http://bit.ly/c3JYEC


  5. julaybib

    But will Muslim leaders condemn….? – Pickled Politics: http://ow.ly/1ZBJx




  1. Sarah AB — on 16th June, 2010 at 11:20 am  

    To be fair – isn’t it the case that ‘white community leaders’ often do condemn the BNP etc?

  2. Claire Khaw — on 16th June, 2010 at 11:31 am  

    Someone tell this idiot (and others like him) that it is like expecting every man to condemn violence against women every time they hear a report of a wife-beating. Insulting to Muslims, totalitarian and ultimately futile.

  3. martyn — on 16th June, 2010 at 11:50 am  

    I agree they have the right to protest, though I don’t agree with their viewpoint. I would prefer it if people who still believe in giant sky fairies, that’s all of them christian muslin etc., did it in their own time in their own homes, and not drag it out onto the street bothering more rational people with their deluded fantasies. That’s directed at ALL religious people.

  4. thabet — on 16th June, 2010 at 12:09 pm  

    “isn’t it the case that ‘white community leaders’ often do condemn the BNP etc?”

    Did John Reid drive into a “white area” and lecture them on being good citizens?

  5. Sunny — on 16th June, 2010 at 12:43 pm  

    Who are the white community leaders?

  6. Mangles — on 16th June, 2010 at 12:45 pm  

    Thabet – actually there has been a lot of brow beating, debate and campaigning – including many church leaders and church groups involved against the BNP types and their supporters in the past several years. There is a moral highground that the white/Christian community can and does take on this issue.

    Even then I don’t agree with Nile Gardiner’s piece in the telegraph – as it is predictably patronising. However more white people have campaigned against the BNP and EDL than non-white and many more white people in ‘white areas’ have listened to them.

    Similarly if the sort of fascists that associate with Al-Muhajiroun aka Al-Ghuraaba aka Islam4UK aka ‘Muslims Against the Crusade’ – always under the strapline of Islam – are not publicly sidelined and their views publicly challenged by the mainstream Muslim community then they will continue to hog the same sort of headlines in mainstream media that they so target in an unashamedly vulgar way.

    Sunny I agree that this sort of protest should not be denied but challenged. Clearly the Telegraph wants to demonise these idiots by calling them a ‘Mob’ – the media likes to link violence to any protest, rightly or fictitiously, if it feels the protestors do not conform to their values – even if it means that they would rather see a denial of their right to protest.

    Rab rakha!

  7. Jai — on 16th June, 2010 at 12:51 pm  

    Mangles,

    Similarly if the sort of fascists that associate with Al-Muhajiroun aka Al-Ghuraaba aka Islam4UK aka ‘Muslims Against the Crusade’ – always under the strapline of Islam – are not publicly sidelined and their views publicly challenged by the mainstream Muslim community

    Agreed, although they already are publicly challenged (in some cases on an international scale) — it just doesn’t receive anywhere near the same level of media coverage in Britain as the actions of the Al-Muhajiroun types do:

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/8838

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/7999

  8. Sarah AB — on 16th June, 2010 at 12:51 pm  

    Sunny – politicians, journalists, religious leaders? I don’t really like the idea/term ‘community leader’ but in so far as they exist it’s not surprising that we don’t think in terms of white community leaders as they are the majority group. But I don’t otherwise disagree with your original post.

  9. The Cackling Chestnut Roaster — on 16th June, 2010 at 1:05 pm  

    Who are the white community leaders?

    Jimmy Saville

  10. earwicga — on 16th June, 2010 at 2:35 pm  

    Who are the white community leaders?

    The Daily Mail.

  11. Sarah AB — on 16th June, 2010 at 3:06 pm  
  12. Mangles — on 16th June, 2010 at 5:01 pm  

    Thanks (#7) Jai -sure those are good examples of challenging these idiots’ views. How do we get these more highlighted and vigrously included in analysis and debate?

    How can the nuts from HuT etc be sidelined so that they dont get any airspace or print-inches At the moment they seem to be setting the agenda for the Muslim community through their antics in the media?

    Rab rakha!

  13. Mangles — on 16th June, 2010 at 5:07 pm  

    Sarah Ab thanks for link – more nutters – dressed like extremist urban terrorists. Just their appearance should get them arrested under the stop and serach powers used to intimidate Asian and Black communities.

    I’m glad I’m flying the flag of St George on me car (for the world cup lol) oh it does p—’em off when they see who gets out of the car.

    Rab rakha!

  14. boyo — on 16th June, 2010 at 6:51 pm  

    it is fair to say that ‘white community leaders’, ie politians of all stripes, the press inc the mail, the c of e regularly condemn the bnp….

    It is perhaps because of this there is a failure to comprehend the seeming lack of response from the muslim community which both at once appears to insist it is no ‘different’ from the rest of uk society and at the same time insist on its difference

    i dont believe a lack of condemnation = approval, but it does illustrate a kind of willful refusal to adjust to the expectation of the host community

    back to pr as per other thread

  15. BenSix — on 16th June, 2010 at 7:56 pm  

    Nile Gardiner knows all about unpopular protests

    For the past few years, there has been a week of homosexual programs and propaganda called BGLAD Week organized on campus. In 1994, it fell right at the time of True Mother’s speech. This included pornographic chalk drawings on the sidewalks to “heighten awareness.” One of the Unificationist graduate students in history at Yale, Nile Gardiner, and a Christian friend, took mops and buckets and proceeded to clean it all off. This of course started allegations concerning free speech, and many articles in the Yale newspapers covered this. They became quiet famous in the Yale conservative circles as “The Moppers.” Literally cleaning up Yale!

  16. Sarah AB — on 16th June, 2010 at 8:26 pm  

    boyo – I suppose it’s easier for the majority white community to condemn a minority and extreme group within it than it is for a minority group to condemn its own extreme elements when it feels some from the majority are breathing down its neck for it to condemn the extremists whereas others are assuming *all* Muslims are extremists. To get some sense of why perhaps moderate Muslims might be less willing to condemn extremists I compare my own experience of having England criticised by foreigners – in conversation with other British people I might articulate the same views but tend to feel defensive when outsiders make these critical points.

  17. Sunny — on 16th June, 2010 at 8:49 pm  

    It is perhaps because of this there is a failure to comprehend the seeming lack of response from the muslim community

    I thought you were against this sort of multi-culti bollocks that put all Muslims in one identity box?

    I’ll note this thread for the future when I write about multiculturalism. It should make for amusing contrasts. Just goes to show how confused people are.

  18. Javid — on 16th June, 2010 at 9:12 pm  

    What do you expect ?It was The Telegraph that printed Will Cummin’s article “Muslims are a threat to our way of life” (including the line” All Muslims, like all dogs, share certain characteristics”) the nearest thing to Nazism that has appeared in a “respectable” British newspaper in recent times.

  19. Arif — on 16th June, 2010 at 9:28 pm  

    In the sense that vast numbers imams, political leaders, religious scholars regularly and forcefully condemn violence in the name of Islam, I don’t feel they need to do more.

    But I accept that non-Muslims in particular do not think this is enough, or are not aware of this or think it is not the right kind of condemnation as they recognise it.

    And I guess Muslims and other minorities threatened by the BNP may have a similar lack of awareness/cynicism about protestations from people they might (unspecifically) dub white community leaders.

    But since the mass media is (often) necessarily more aligned to dominant/majority identities and perceptions, the lack of wider public awareness of Muslims not identifying with tiny sub-groups is sometimes projected as a problem for the Muslims to solve for the majority.

    That is a tad unfair, and is not something I want to pander too. However, I do think a degree of pandering would be the politic thing to do for groups who aim to represent Muslim interests, and I’d expect them to do so – as long as they express this as “strong disagreement” and “opposition” rather than “condemnation” (which would appear to me to deny the rights of other groups to political expression) – unless their opponents’ political expression was threatening in some manner. So even then I guess they would fail the hurdles set by some in the mass media.

    Often enough some of the mass media fails to clear hurdles set by Muslim groups too – in those cases the majority of non-Muslims probably tend to see those hurdles as illegitimate and unreasonable demands and aren’t bothered.

    My solution is to accept that perceptions differ among well-meaning people and try to get along, rather than turn it into a cause for wider hostility. I’ll never agree with Nile Gardiner, but I won’t expect him to denounce the actions of British troops and pay tribute to conscientious objectors before I can respect him.

    My central difference with him is that he denies the possibility of middle ground, or the legitimacy of not taking sides between his position and that of “Muslims against the Crusades”. That leads to the spiral of irreconcilable differences between us of what I should do and how I should be represented. Muslim condemnations which do not reflect his perspective are unlikely to ever fully satisfy him, and we both have to learn to live with that!

  20. Kulvinder — on 16th June, 2010 at 11:46 pm  

    but it does illustrate a kind of willful refusal to adjust to the expectation of the host community

    As per sunny above, i thought ‘communal thinking’ was , like, not on. I was unaware the ‘community leaders’ of the ‘host community’ had outlined what was and wasn’t acceptable.

  21. Kulvinder — on 16th June, 2010 at 11:54 pm  

    nb id also be interested in the connotations of ‘host community’ and ‘adjustment to expectations’ with regards to Northern Ireland, after all its about time the decendants of immigrant protestants accept that they should adjust to their catholic nationalist hosts and reunite all the counties of Ireland.

  22. All We Need Is Time — on 17th June, 2010 at 12:15 am  

    nb id also be interested in the connotations of ‘host community’ and ‘adjustment to expectations’ with regards to Northern Ireland, after all its about time the decendants of immigrant protestants accept that they should adjust to their catholic nationalist hosts and reunite all the counties of Ireland.

    Partition, when it was being implemented by the British, at the time was unfavourable to most Irish Protestants at the time. (The first Irish nationalists were Protestants)

    Sorry if that appears to be maliciously pedantic; t’was not my intention, and I agree with your general line of thought. I was just clarifying the history, as it were.

  23. boyo — on 17th June, 2010 at 6:00 am  

    Kulvinder, i agree. Im all for one ireland. Indeed, its an unfortunate example because it does go to show how intractable religious and cultural differences can be, and how the state can exploit them to its advantage. If we want to see why schools should not be segregated by religion for eg, we need look no further.

    Yup, maybe i am a bit confused. I dont believe in the dogma of multi culturalism, but i would be foolish to believe people dont self-identify as different. My approach would be to emphasise commonality over separateness. My model would be France or possibly America, although realistically i dont think we could duplicate that model (the fundamental mistake of mc – the US is by definition a nation of immigrants, the uk, whatever the quibbles, is not). So France then. With a queen.

  24. Yakoub — on 17th June, 2010 at 6:26 am  

    I’m white. Oh, and I’m Muslim. So who do I listen to? Jimmy Saville? Tariq Ramadan? This is too confusing – for white ars’oles. Whaddya want me to do – buy some black boot polish? Or should I distribute bleach face wash at mosque? “White community leaders?” As if!

  25. Rumbold — on 17th June, 2010 at 9:34 am  

    On behalf of the white community I would like to apologise for Polly Toynbee and Richard Littlejohn. These extremists and their views do not represent the Pale Khalsa, or the Bleached Ummah.

  26. Jai — on 17th June, 2010 at 11:22 am  

    Mangles,

    Thanks (#7) Jai -sure those are good examples of challenging these idiots’ views. How do we get these more highlighted and vigrously included in analysis and debate?

    There would need to be much greater coverage of these examples than present in the major British newspapers, news channels, current affairs programmes etc.

    Possibly easier said than done, as those media outlets would need to be willing to highlight those individuals and the superb work they’re involved in to the same extent that the media currently covers fringe extremists like the Al-Muhajiroun/HuT types.

  27. Sarah AB — on 17th June, 2010 at 12:33 pm  

    Is the different structure of Islam wrt clerics a factor here? Within Christianity there are clear leaders – eg the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Pope – whereas Islam doesn’t, I think, have this kind of hierarchy. If some random vicar articulates strange views – that’s a very different matter from the A of C doing so – whereas it’s difficult for people, particularly non-Muslims, to distinguish between the significance of pronouncements by Islamic clerics in this way.

  28. Arif — on 17th June, 2010 at 1:06 pm  

    SarahAB – I don’t know how much it is a factor.

    If there were a Muslim Pope, I doubt there would be that much of an expectation that they would issue condemnations of small groups like Muslims against the Crusades. If they would issue a statement it would probably be perfuntorily clarifying duties of Muslims in non-Muslim countries rather than an ongoing campaign. Otherwise it would be like the Pope getting involved in lecturing supporters of Celtic football club or something, about what constitutes appropriate behaviour. And Muslims against the Crusades would anyway probably respond with a condemnation of the supposed Muslim Pope. That would be that.

    Muslim Pope or none, I think the main problem facing would-be representatives of Muslims is the relative lack of legitimised discursive spaces for a nuanced position that holds warriors and advocates for different causes to similar ethical standards (particularly in relation to foreign policies and responses to them as in this case).

    Such spaces do exist, but not, I think, for Muslims interacting with the UK-based mass media. The cynicism greeting such attempts make them largely counter-productive.

  29. bananabrain — on 17th June, 2010 at 2:13 pm  

    I thought you were against this sort of multi-culti bollocks that put all Muslims in one identity box?

    is that the identity box that says their opposite numbers are “white community leaders”, implying that muslims are by definition non-white?

    i shouldn’t have to remind you that this isn’t about skin colour.

    b’shalom

    bananabrain

  30. douglas clark — on 17th June, 2010 at 2:25 pm  

    Rumbold @ 25,

    I don’t know what you are saying here. (I’ll get around to that in a moment.)

    The white community, which is split into smithereens on it’s own internal identity, should apologise for assuming stuff. What difference is there between say, Catholics and Protestants, except they are wrong? Am I right in saying Lancastrians and Yorkshiremen fought each other over that? It is this assumption that just because your:

    White

    English

    Black

    Brown

    Or

    Muslim

    Sikh

    Hindu

    Christian

    Jew

    Or

    Palestian

    Israeli

    Tibetan

    Chinese….

    I could go on.

    You see the point.

    It is all about feeling comfortable in a group and then extending that group identity to hassle other groups. It was Sonia, perhaps that made me see otherwise.

    Oh!

    On behalf of the white community I would like to apologise for Polly Toynbee and Richard Littlejohn. These extremists and their views do not represent the Pale Khalsa, or the Bleached Ummah.

    There is no white community, and I have no idea why you would think there is.

    (Just for your information I am supporting Argentina in the World Cup. I expect all sorts of folk will be supporting England.

    Well, I’m not one of them.)

    Just saying, even us whitey complectioned punks have our own ideas – and England isn’t, necessarily, it.

    Whew!

  31. Sarah AB — on 17th June, 2010 at 2:28 pm  

    Arif – fair enough – some of these fringe groups get treated too seriously by the media.

  32. douglas clark — on 17th June, 2010 at 2:42 pm  

    Point,

    On behalf of the entire human race I’d like to apologise for almost every comment columnist.

    ————————–

    Because they all make money out of being controversialists. That is who they are and that is the collective angst that they play on. It is not nice and it is, argueably, not human….

    But I have no home in Arcadia -meaning money – but these folk do….

    You too can earn enormous sums of money by playing to stupid proprieters, or readers…..

  33. Jai — on 17th June, 2010 at 2:51 pm  

    Douglas,

    I don’t know what you are saying here. (I’ll get around to that in a moment.)

    There is no white community, and I have no idea why you would think there is.

    Rumbold was being satirical. A little light humour from our resident historian-libertarian.

  34. douglas clark — on 17th June, 2010 at 3:26 pm  

    Jai @ 33,

    I am very fond of Rumbold. And you.

    There is still nothing to be said for journalists :-)

  35. Mangles — on 17th June, 2010 at 4:37 pm  

    Pale Khalsa, and the Bleached Ummah. LLLLOOOOLLLL!!!

    Rab rakha!

  36. Rumbold — on 17th June, 2010 at 5:12 pm  

    Thank you Messers Jai, Douglas and Mangles.

    Douglas:

    As someone who finds the present England team to be full of thugs, I shall be supporting Algeria and Slovenia.

  37. boyo — on 17th June, 2010 at 5:42 pm  

    Sunny started it.

    I will be supporting England, because im English, Italy because i live there. Fortunately i have not yet been required to take the cricket test.

  38. Sarah AB — on 17th June, 2010 at 5:48 pm  

    And I’m supporting England. My husband usually supports the other team for the same reason as Rumbold. It’s very annoying.

  39. Sunny — on 17th June, 2010 at 6:35 pm  

    I dont believe in the dogma of multi culturalism, but i would be foolish to believe people dont self-identify as different.

    So you do love identity politics! Welcome to the club boyo :)

  40. Boyo — on 17th June, 2010 at 11:09 pm  

    Yes, I guess that’s why i’ve been coming here so long… ;-)

  41. Ravi Naik — on 17th June, 2010 at 11:22 pm  

    Yes, I guess that’s why i’ve been coming here so long…

    Do you speak Italian, Boyo?

  42. boyo — on 18th June, 2010 at 10:07 am  

    Yes, although I’m not fluent. My work is all in English, all day, with no recourse to Italian so I don’t have much of a chance. But I would pass Sgr Berlusconi’s Italian language test, if that’s what you’re getting at ;-)

  43. dave bones — on 19th June, 2010 at 9:05 am  

    I think that is Simon Keeler in the third picture down on the daily mail article

Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.

Pickled Politics © Copyright 2005 - 2010. All rights reserved. Terms and conditions.
With the help of PHP and Wordpress.