BNP & EDL Update


by Jai
12th June, 2010 at 10:35 am    

A selection of ongoing developments involving Britain’s extreme far-Right, further to the recent PP article focusing on the BNP here.

BNP:

1. Nick Griffin is finally admitting that the BNP’s disastrous defeat in the recent General Election was due to them being comprehensively outclassed by the other political parties, particularly (in Griffin’s view) the Labour party. The URL link includes Griffin’s bizarre, rambling email to BNP members in full, detailing his plans to revamp the party prior to his alleged stepping down from the Chairmanship in 2014 so that he can lead a block of “nationalist opponents” in the European Parliament. Apparently a BNP “Campaign Executive” group has been formed, as a way to integrate the various groups involved in the BNP’s overall strategy. Griffin also wishes to create an “Operations Command Centre” (described by him as a “BNP academy of political excellence”), which will include a “National Training Department” for their key officials. The BNP also plan to create a distance learning website, described by Griffin as “a sort of Nationalist Open University” (one would assume that white supremacist websites such as Stormfront already perform that function). Amusingly, Griffin is still insisting that the BNP are the “Real British People”, despite the fact that more than 98% of Britain’s entire electorate did not vote for them in the General Election.

2. The BNP’s annual “Red, White and Blue” gathering has been cancelled this year, to the considerable relief of the local residents.

3. Graham Partner, one of the BNP’s few remaining councillors, has joined the calls for Griffin to be replaced as the party’s chairman; he has stated that the BNP is not being managed in an “open and honest way” and that there is “something to hide”. Partner has also called the BNP’s constitution “antidemocratic” and a “farce”, where BNP members are “merely a source of income” for the party’s senior leaders such as Griffin.

4. Griffin has openly stolen the EDL’s slogan “England is for life, not just for summer”, rephrasing it for the BNP’s summer campaign as “England is for life, not just for football”. This is of course despite their ongoing claims that there are no links between the BNP and the EDL; Griffin himself, in his usual antisemitic way, has even claimed that the EDL is a “Zionist false flag operation” with the aim of “provoking a civil war on the streets of Britain” and ultimately intended to trigger nuclear attacks against Arab countries in the Middle East. However, it is worth noting that the EDL’s main website creator has been confirmed as a BNP activist, and the administrator of the Luton EDL Facebook page is also a BNP member.

5. A joint investigation (also here) by Birmingham University and the interdenominational organisation ‘Faith Matters’ has confirmed that the BNP are deliberately playing the “divide and rule” game of trying to inflame & exploit tensions between Sikhs and Muslims.

6. The BNP’s “Sikh” supporter Rajinder Singh is now being formally investigated by the central Sikh authorities at the Akal Takht (part of the Golden Temple complex) in Amritsar, India, for his vociferous & very public promotion of bigotry and hatred towards Muslims (especially compared to the actual pluralistic, non-sectarian, humanitarian message of Sikhism and the lives of its historical founding Gurus, as detailed on PP here, here and here). Potentially Rajinder Singh could be formally excommunicated because of his actions, resulting in him being officially declared a global pariah from the world’s entire Sikh population.

7. BNP activist Tom Holmes, who stood as a candidate for Rotherham in the General Election and works for TalkTalk as a field representative, has been exposed as being desperate to prevent his employers and colleagues from finding out about his racist views and his membership of the BNP. Holmes, who has boasted online about being a Gold Member of the BNP and apparently models himself on his idol Nick Griffin, has been using his Facebook page to discuss his “black book” of people to be “put up against the wall” along with his eagerness for what he believes to be an impending “race war”.

EDL:

1. A few weeks ago, BBC Three had a documentary about the EDL, called “Young, British and Angry”. It’s no longer available via the BBC’s iPlayer service, but you can still see highlights from the documentary via Youtube here. The EDL’s “Sikh” poodle-cum-sepoy Guramit Singh (sometimes known as “Amit” Singh) is continuing to be heavily involved in the EDL’s activities as their public spokesman; he has also been forcefully condemned by Dr Jasdev Rai of the British Sikh Consultative Forum (BSCF), whose chairman is “Bhai Sahib” Mohinder Singh, one of the most respected figures within Britain’s Sikh population and who has been actively involved in opposing bigotry towards ordinary Muslims. (Bhai Sahib was recently discussed in detail on PP here). The BBC documentary included numerous examples of the EDL’s frequent lack of self-awareness, such as one of their balaclava-wearing activists complaining “Why do people call us Nazis ? We’re nothing like Nazis”…..whilst speaking in a dingy basement and surrounded by similarly-attired thugs.

2. An excellent article discussing the results of a recent investigation into the EDL by the Guardian (includes undercover video footage), exposing the EDL’s aims to target a number of locations with Muslim populations this summer in order to deliberately provoke disorder. Like the BNP – whose current chairman Nick Griffin has been caught on video admitting that he’s deliberately scapegoating & persecuting Muslims as a vehicle to achieve political power – the EDL is persistently exposed as being an extremely racist organisation, despite their public claims to the contrary and despite their claims to only be opposed to “militant Islam” rather than ordinary Muslims en masse.

3. An associated article by The Guardian here, providing further detailed analysis of the EDL. It is clear that the EDL not only has striking parallels with Al-Muhajiroun along with the KKK, the National Front, and certain European fascist groups from the first half of the 20th century, but as a self-appointed paramilitary organisation geared towards terrorising & intimidating ordinary members of the civilian population (especially people from minority groups), the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban (particularly the version currently wreaking havoc in Pakistan) and fringe extremist Hindutva groups in India such as the RSS, Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal and Sri Ram Sena.

4. A Muslim author discusses the necessity for British Muslims to refuse to “take the bait” in response to the EDL’s deliberately-provocative actions. On a related note, it goes without saying that – again, like the BNP – the EDL are justifying their stance by promoting a highly-distorted caricature of huge numbers of ordinary Muslims, and are disingenuously ignoring (or being grossly ignorant of) numerous influential contemporary and historical Muslims whose lives and actions completely contradict the EDL’s assertions, including the Muslims discussed on PP here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.

5. An article by (believe it or not) the Daily Mail openly labelling the EDL as “fascists”, focusing on a recent EDL march through Newcastle and including a number of photographs of the event.

6. Further evidence of the EDL’s plans to deliberate incite violence in Bradford this August. The EDL activist Jeff Marsh (who recently released a widely-ridiculed and now-deleted Youtube video under the alias “Arrylad”) has responded to the recent Guardian expose with violent threats against the main journalist responsible, specifically referring to the gangland tactic of weighing people down and drowning them.

7. Two members of the EDL have appeared in court accused of soliciting the hate killings of Jews; they specifically face a total of 7 counts of “soliciting to commit murder”, and “using threatening or abusive language likely to stir up racial hatred”. These included posting comments on the extremist website ‘The Aryan Strike Force’ such as “Jews are parasites feeding off others”, “Jews will always be scum” Kill the Jew, Kill the Jew! Burn down the synagogue. Burn the scum”, “Jews will always be scum and must be destroyed”, and “I would encourage any religion or race which wants to destroy the Jews, I hate them with a passion”.

8. Paradoxically, the EDL are attempting to set up a “Jewish division” in order to recruit Jewish members to support their campaign against Muslims.

9. The EDL are also in the process of creating a children’s division. “Hitler Youth”, anyone ?

10. The EDL are violating British copyright laws by producing World Cup clothing bearing the Three Lions logo, which actually belongs to the FA. The FA’s legal department has contacted the EDL and demanded that they stop, but the EDL have refused to do this, and are still selling the illegal clothes via their clothing website.

11. A summary of an ongoing drama involving the recent Guardian investigation, one of the EDL’s media representatives, the British armed forces, Facebook, and the anti-BNP/EDL blog 1 Million United (“1MU”). Includes details of the fake threats the EDL representative is making against 1MU along with her wild claims of being supported by the “military chain of command”. The EDL’s media representative has subsequently been reprimanded by her husband’s commanding officer in the British Army for their involvement in the EDL and the claims they have been making.


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Filed in: EDL,The BNP






71 Comments below   |  

Reactions: Twitter, blogs
  1. Ali King

    RT @sunny_hundal: Blog post:: BNP & EDL Update http://bit.ly/c9nfTl


  2. sunny hundal

    Blog post:: BNP & EDL Update http://bit.ly/c9nfTl


  3. ibnkafka

    RT @Umm_Issa Great blog post by @sunny_hundal on racist nature of EDL which tries to claim it isn't racist http://bit.ly/c9nfTl


  4. Shunning the English Defence League « Engage – the anti-racist campaign against antisemitism

    [...] the EDL closely. At his blog or via it see: an early June post of his, Malatesta from LibCom, Jai’s BNP & EDL update. Posted in The Right, anti-racism, national identity. Tags: islamophobia. Leave a Comment [...]




  1. cjcjc — on 12th June, 2010 at 11:19 am  

    I stopped reading at “the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban” !

    (they are scummy but you can over-egg the pudding you know…)

  2. Toque — on 12th June, 2010 at 11:29 am  

    I stopped at “Hitler Youth”.

    I wish Sunny would look at the causes rather than the symptoms a bit more often (is a lack of legitimate, democratic, English voice providing a vacuum for the likes of the EDL? – see If an English Team, why not an English…?)

  3. MatGB — on 12th June, 2010 at 12:36 pm  

    I am not sure the BNP have been resoundingly seen off electorally. Yes, they didn’t get the breakthrough they were (stupidly) expecting, but they didn’t actually do as badly as some people seem to think. They’ll be back for the Euros, and might keep their seats if we keep bloody D’Hondt.

    Rationale: People vote differently in different electoral systems. D’Hondt favours smaller parties. Most UKIP voters in the Euros vote differently in a GE, they know FPTP marginalises smaller parties.

    In 2009, UKIP got 2.5million votes, in 2010 919K, less than 2/5ths.

    In 2009, BNP got 943K votes, in 2010 564K, well over 1/2, close to 2/3rds.

    I’m hoping that we’ll have a better voting system for the next Euros, ideally STV, that’ll hurt the extremists substantially and be more accurate, but if we don’t, I expect Brons and Griffin to know exactly what to do to to retain their seats. A much higher turnout from Labour inclined voters is likely, naturally, and that’ll help, but they’re not dead yet.

  4. KB Player — on 12th June, 2010 at 12:54 pm  

    Interesting post, Jai. Though there’s overlap between the EDL & BNP, does the EDL embrace all that race theory crap of the BNP about DNA, movements of Celtic tribes 1500 years ago and hereditary illnesses eg sickle cell anaemia being prevalent in particular racial groups. Or is that too intellectual for them?

  5. cav — on 12th June, 2010 at 1:09 pm  

    Typically counter-productive mix of hysteria, gross exaggerations, half-truths and outright lies.

    Posts like this do immense damage to the credibility of the left. There is enough dirt already without all of the ludicrous and lurid hype.

    Its rather like a children’s bogey man tale with these groups being the pantomime evil rather then the mundane collection that they are.

  6. Wyrdtimes — on 12th June, 2010 at 2:44 pm  

    “England is for life, not just for summer” or more commonly “England is for life, not just football” has been used in English nationalist circles for years before the British nationalist group the “EDL” came on the scene.

  7. Kelly B — on 12th June, 2010 at 3:12 pm  

    Well, KB Player, I fully support the premise that racial theories of any political kind are clap trap but are you seriously suggesting that genetic science such as DNA are ‘crap’ and that there are no ethnic prevalent diseases such as Sickle Cell or Tay-Sachs?

    FYI the “Celtic” inhabitation took place around 14000 years ago and not 1500 years ago as you claim a time of the inception of the Kingdom of Essex and the rise of Francia amongst other events.

    Both the historical and genetic history of the British peoples over this time is a well documented fact (around 80% of Britons can trace their ancestry back that far) and it is pointless, insulting and just plain wrong to try and poo poo this.

    Or is that too intellectual for you?

  8. Don — on 12th June, 2010 at 3:30 pm  

    FYI the “Celtic” inhabitation took place around 14000 years ago

    What? The Celts were early Iron Age, at best. Certainly in the British Isles no earlier than 500BCE.

    Where did you get 14,000 years from?

  9. Don — on 12th June, 2010 at 3:34 pm  

    hysteria, gross exaggerations, half-truths and outright lies.

    Would you care to be more specific? Which were ‘outright lies’?

  10. Sarah AB — on 12th June, 2010 at 7:01 pm  

    That was very interesting – thanks – the Lake link reminded me of a near future thriller called The Execution Channel by Ken MacLeod.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Execution_Channel

  11. Kelly B — on 12th June, 2010 at 7:32 pm  

    You will notice Don that I put “Celtic” in speech marks because KB Player used the term, which refers to a cultural rather then ethnic group anyway, and I couldn’t be bothered to go into it and didn’t think KB Player would understand the distinctions.

    The British isles have been populated with the current stock of peoples (around 80% lineage) for around 14000, since the last Ice Age (Neolithic) the “Celts” came around 6000 years ago. Either ways, the British are remarkably homogonous, contrary to the politically inspired ‘mongrel race’ rubbish.

    As to your question “which were ‘outright lies” try the observation in the first comment “I stopped reading at “the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban” and then reread the whole sorry mess again, then tell me which part you consider isn’t either ‘hysteria, gross exaggerations, half-truths and outright lies.’

    Totally childish, counter-productive nonsense.

    Anyway, good luck England!!

  12. Cav — on 12th June, 2010 at 8:11 pm  

    That was my point precisely Kelly B.

    And things like “more than 98% of Britain’s entire electorate did not vote for them in the General Election” when the turnout was 65.1%.

  13. Trofim — on 12th June, 2010 at 9:21 pm  

    @ 4:

    I expect the high prevalence of thalassaemia in peoples of the mediterranean region and its very low prevalence in northern europeans, has, no doubt, in KB Player’s eyes been manufactured by racist scientists.

  14. Sunny — on 13th June, 2010 at 2:28 am  

    Toque – I didn’t write this, but yes I understand that sentiment.

    Jai – excellent update, thanks

  15. Yakoub — on 13th June, 2010 at 6:27 am  

    Jeff Marsh’s Arrylad has an alter-ego, Timmylad.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c0wB10atG8

  16. halima — on 13th June, 2010 at 6:50 am  

    Jai, excellent post. As usual on this topic you’re ahead of many others on what’s making the EDL and others on the far right tick, and will not be easily be side-tracked or distracted from exposing them.

  17. ??????? — on 13th June, 2010 at 1:44 pm  

    Cav

    Agreed.

    Fully cringe worthy student politic style stuff with complete disregard for the truth.

    As counter-productive as it gets.

    With so much hot air to choose from, my pick would be this one “The BNP’s annual “Red, White and Blue” gathering has been cancelled this year, to the considerable relief of the local residents” when the reality is that in 2008 there were 36 arrests and all of them were UAF members.

    The actual truth is that the “considerable relief of the local residents” is not that the BNP will not be coming this year but that the UAF will not be coming!!!

    “PEOPLE living near the site of a controversial BNP festival in Derbyshire have spoken of their fears that the event could bring violence to their village.

    Red, White and Blue is being held on fields off Codnor-Denby Lane, Denby, for the third consecutive year today, tomorrow and Sunday…

    But, away from the march, 36 anti-BNP protesters were arrested near the festival site after clashes with police.

    This year, more than 1,000 protesters are expected to take part in a peaceful march from Codnor Market Place to Crosshill Church, Codnor-Denby Lane.

    But people living near the site said they fear a repeat of last year’s violence and are also worried about noise.”

    http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/Codnor-residents-speak-Red-White-Blue-fear/article-1253279-detail/article.html

    And 19 arrests, all UAF in 2009:

    “… Police did come under brief attack from a small number of protesters who threw missiles, including plastic bottles and bags of flour, as demonstrators attempted to force their way through a police cordon and past mounted officers…

    A police spokesman said: “Unfortunately, some people have ignored police advice and failed to abide by the agreements reached during the planning of the protest.
    “These people blocked or tried to block roads near the site of the Red, White and Blue festival.

    “Officers had to take action to open the roads and deal with the protesters.”

    The spokesman conceded that there had been disruption to local people and road users, who he thanked for their patience and understanding.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6035343/Protesters-arrested-at-BNP-rally.html

  18. EDLdocTue15JuneBBC211.20pm — on 13th June, 2010 at 4:06 pm  

    The documentary about the EDL
    “Young British and Angry” is on this Tuesday 15th June on BBC2 at 11.20pm

  19. KB Player — on 13th June, 2010 at 5:20 pm  

    Well, Kelly B., I can’t be arsed with the nuts and bolts of the Celts are a cultural and not an ethnic group stuff, or what tribe was moving about where, which may be interesting to archaeologists, nor the DNA stuff. I’m quite indifferent whether my DNA is 99% this that or the next thing. However those who appear on threads like this are interested in this stuff because it bolsters up their ideas of the wrongness of miscegenation, the need for ethnic cleansing, the purity of the races, ie Nazi ideology with a modern scientific spin. They are usually members of the BNP, with some intellectual pretensions, who get their ideology from Stormfront.

    So as I would guess that’s where you come, are you BNP, EDL or both?

    (By the way “poo poo” is a hilariously apt malapropism for “pooh-pooh” because “poo poo” is what makes up the brains of people who draw political conclusions from what are quite specialised fields like anthropology, archaeology and genomics.)

  20. Kelly B — on 13th June, 2010 at 5:55 pm  

    Wild accusations to cover up extreme ignorance?! Who would have thunk it?

    You make me laugh. You should have paid more attention at school, but seeing as you didn’t, either get educated now or refrain from commenting on subjects you know nothing of, lest you look like a fool.

    You are the worst of the left; an embarrassment.

  21. Jai — on 14th June, 2010 at 11:45 am  

    Sunny, Halima, thanks for your kind words. KB Player, I agree with your continuing observations.

    Halima, I also agree completely with your points about “sidetracking”. As you can see, the diversionary tactics are already underway, but this was entirely predictable and all too transparent. Especially the claims about “distortions”, considering that everything in the article is fully referenced and, where applicable, includes extensive video footage and authenticated emails & internet postings directly from the far-Right figures mentioned.

    It’s similar to the way Nick Griffin initially completely denied having shared a platform with ex-KKK leader David Duke when he was challenged about it on Question Time, then he claimed he’d been misquoted when he was presented with the photographic and video evidence of the event, and when the full transcript of his remarks was read back to him, he actually tried to be an apologist for the KKK by claiming they were “almost completely non-violent, by the way”.

    Here’s another example:

    around 14000, since the last Ice Age (Neolithic)

    The last Ice Age actually ended 12-13,000 years ago, not 14,000 years ago and certainly not 17-18,000 years ago as Griffin has repeatedly been claiming (right up to the recent election itself). In fact, numerous assertions by the BNP about prehistoric British history have been directly challenged and comprehensively discredited by authorities as diverse as Professor Stephen Oppenheimer, Professor Bryan Sykes, and Professor Chris Stringer (from the Natural History Museum and the director of the Ancient Human Occupation of Britain project). I guess that’s what happens when someone bases their alleged knowledge of global history on the dubious contents of white supremacist websites like Stormfront, Majority Rights, VNN and American Rennaissance.

    But…..the predictable sidetracking attempts are entertaining enough, and the allegations of “hysteria, gross exaggerations, half-truths and outright lies” are pure psychological projection. Again, an established pattern of behaviour when it comes to the far-Right, and an example of the “Big Lie” propaganda technique in action.

  22. Cav — on 14th June, 2010 at 2:36 pm  

    Jai, I followed your link to your last effort and found that you are entirely incapable of taking criticism or defending your position without resorting to the same type of aggressive accusations that KB Player employs.

    You cannot provide evidence when challenged about some of your gross exaggerations (to be generous) or explanations as to some of your frankly comical conclusions.

    In fact throughout the last portion of that thread your only repeated retort to a Libertarians quite reasonable questions and observations was that he was a mentally ill Nazi. You then sealed the thread after days of inactivity with more new lurid but unsupported claims in an attempt to discredit everything he had to say. Childish.

    I know you think you are really doing well, doing your bit with this type of bombastic rhetoric but believe me the only the people that will swallow such pantomime swill as this are people who already think like yourself.

    Others will read such ridiculous assertions as “the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban” and discount the rest as childish fluff and that leftist blogs cannot be trusted. People with family serving in Afghan, especially those with losses will find it deeply offensive.

    I cannot work out if you just completely dishonest or so fanatical that you cannot recognise the truth when it emerges.

    Another example would be your take on what happened on Question Time re: David Duke:

    Contrary to your claim that Griffin ““initially completely denied having shared a platform with ex-KKK leader David Duke” what Griffin was actually wrongly told by Dimbleby was that he was “with the head of the Ku Klux Klan” at that event and Griffin rightly said “no”
    because Duke had ceased being a member of a KKK, let alone a head, some 16 years before that meeting; Griffin then correctly went on to say that he had indeed shared a platform with David Duke “who was once the head of a Ku Klux Klan”

    The truth is completely different to your account. People can see it for themselves @ 3:06 here:

    Video

  23. Cav — on 14th June, 2010 at 2:37 pm  

    As well as the bits already highlighted, this new piece of untruth is just another nail in the coffin for your credibility and another knock in the credibility of the left in dealing with these issues in a frank and honest way.

    Even the bit about the KKK is completely wrong as there has never been “a KKK” but hundreds of different groups with “KKK” in the name. Griffin wasn’t apologising for the ‘whole KKK’ he was referring to the particular branch that Duke himself founded in 1974 and the fact that Duke was renowned for modernising that branch and for promoting non-violence; he even allowed women and Catholics to join.

    Article

    And of course your closing gambit “The last Ice Age actually ended 12-13,000 years ago, not 14,000 years ago” invoking Professor Oppenheimer is just as false as the rest as he actually claims “”The date of 17,000 years ago is certainly wrong. There’s disagreement on the date from which Britain has been continuously inhabited — I would say 15,000 years ago” and as we all know, Britain was only continuously inhabited after the last ice age.

    The Times

    He also goes on to confirm that his research reveals a remarkable homogeneity of the British people and places his figure at around 75% but admits that his research is nowhere as extensive as Professor Sykes who places his figure at around 80%.

    But then Professor Oppenheimer is actually specialised and qualified as a clinical paediatrician whereas Professor Sykes is solely specialised and qualified in human genetics.

    To be honest even Professor Oppenheimer’s comments after that QT episode reveal the same conundrum I find about you as he remarked that “all British people are immigrants” which is remarkable ignorance as ‘immigration’ is a political process and the migration occurred long before any nation state and also that he based it upon the assertion that “Britain has never had an indigenous population, in the sense of people who evolved here” when the same is true for New Zealand but no one disputes the indigenous status of the M?ori’s, and even though they have only been in situ for around 800 years compared to the 14000-15000 of the British.

    The rest of Professor Oppenheimer’s comments have been overtaken with recent discoveries and rendered obsolete (in as far as they were based upon evidence and not merely opinion)

    Scientific article

    No doubt Jai, you will take all of this actual presentation of facts as an outrageous challenge that warrants yet more school playground responses and unsupported accusations rather then what it is: An appeal for you (and leftist blogs) to stick to the facts and the truth and away from entirely counter-productive lurid pantomime pieces such as these.

  24. Jai — on 14th June, 2010 at 3:40 pm  

    More diversionary tactics underway, once again as predicted. You can tell how desperate the far-Right actually are when they start wheeling out arguments about the Ice Age, of all things. Even more so when they attempt to misappropriate Professor Oppenheimer and cherrypick his writings, as someone who has loudly condemned their actions. And as for the following:

    Griffin wasn’t apologising for the ‘whole KKK’ he was referring to the particular branch that Duke himself founded in 1974 and the fact that Duke was renowned for modernising that branch and for promoting non-violence; he even allowed women and Catholics to join.

    Please provide further details about the BNP’s admiration and support for David Duke’s branch of the KKK.

    In any case, if the BNP feels that strongly about the matter, perhaps they should take steps to clarify perceived public misconceptions about the KKK. Statements to the media, interviews with journalists, and Griffin’s own regular mailshots to BNP supporters would all provide the perfect opportunity to do so.

    you are entirely incapable of taking criticism or defending your position without resorting to the same type of aggressive accusations that KB Player employs.

    You cannot provide evidence when challenged about some of your gross exaggerations (to be generous) or explanations as to some of your frankly comical conclusions.

    I know you think you are really doing well, doing your bit with this type of bombastic rhetoric but believe me the only the people that will swallow such pantomime swill as this are people who already think like yourself.

    you will take all of this actual presentation of facts as an outrageous challenge that warrants yet more school playground responses and unsupported accusations rather then what it is: An appeal for you (and leftist blogs) to stick to the facts and the truth and away from entirely counter-productive lurid pantomime pieces such as these.

    Yet more psychological projection.

    Others will read such ridiculous assertions as “the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban”

    I also said that the self-appointed paramilitary organisation EDL is exactly like the self-appointed paramilitary organisations Shiv Sena and the RSS, and in relation to all of the above I explicitly referred to attitudes & behaviour towards religious minorities.

    People with family serving in Afghan, especially those with losses will find it deeply offensive.

    On the contrary, people with family serving in Afghanistan will completely understand the parallels. And given the horrific treatment of Sikhs, Hindus, and Sufis in Afghanistan at the hands of the Taliban there, Sikhs at the hands of the Pakistani Taliban in the Swat Valley, and Sufis and Ahmadis at the hands of the Pakistani Taliban in Pakistan proper, the parallels with the EDL and its aspirations continue to mount.

    Not least because the EDL’s main bankroller has now detailed his endgame for both British Muslims and white British “race traitors”, in writing and in his own words. The cat is out of the bag.

  25. Cav — on 14th June, 2010 at 4:16 pm  

    Jai, I think I have the answer to my question about whether you are just dishonest or fanatical now.

    And it is in fact you that you is using distractions and projections. FYI I am nowhere near “far right”, that is just another childish device you use when brought to account as revealed in the last thread you link to. That is how you deal with people that disagree with you and point out that much of what you post is untrue and damaging to the left.

    That and accusations of mental illness, all stuff straight out of the playground.

    I have quite clearly highlighted how you have lied on two separate occasions in just your last comment, that in fact the whole comment was just made up rubbish from start to finish. (And at least two other serious ‘mistakes’ in your post have been highlighted in this comment thread so far.)

    Your account of what was said on Question Time was not true. None of it. So instead of accepting that and dealing with it you present more distractions, which is really as childish as it gets, and as damaging as it gets.

    People can see and hear for themselves that your account was entirely false so why not at least try and ‘be a man’ about it and explain why?

    And also try explaining why you decided to bring up the Ice Age (I didn’t) and then lie about it, whilst claiming I brought it up in the first place and that I had “misappropriated” Professor Oppenheimer’s comments when clearly I had proved that it was you who had done so!

    I can assure you that no serving soldiers, nor their families, would at all understand your absolutely stupid comment that “the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban” and would find it most insulting. I do, very much so, and I have a brother and a cousin serving. It is stupid and wrong beyond belief.

    You now claim ‘parallels’ as your meaning when you used “exactly” in another distraction from the truth.

    Jai, it is people like you that do much damage to the left and its credibility.

    With all the real things that the BNP and EDL get up to, why do you have to make up such transparent, pantomime and easily exposed lies? Why? For what reason?

  26. Jai — on 14th June, 2010 at 5:01 pm  

    You haven’t answered my question.

    Please provide further details of exactly why you believe Nick Griffin was right to defend David Duke’s branch of the KKK. Please feel free to supplement it with any personal thoughts you have about the positive aspects of David Duke’s branch, including its ideology and aspirations.

    As for the EDL, once again, their endgame has now been confirmed directly by their primary financier. But your continuing defence of them is, of course, very much your prerogative.

  27. Cav — on 14th June, 2010 at 5:22 pm  

    Jai, you are blatantly playing the same distracting games you cried about earlier now you have been caught out lying.

    You are the one who needs to provide explanations for your lies here, not me for pointing out your lies. Why did you lie? Why are you lying? What is the need for this?

    I provided a credible source for why what Griffin said (“a non-violent one”) was correct so if you don’t believe that then the onus is on you to prove why, especially with reports of violence and convictions for violence carried out that branch, not now pretend to be some sort of school teacher demanding an essay to explain why the teacher was caught out lying.

    You lied, you have been caught out lying, so now either put your hands up and explain why or leave the fact remain that you lie, then try to distract away from the lies when you are caught out whilst accusing others of playing distracting games and ‘projection.’

    Its very simple Jai: You have lied. Why? Why did you feel the need to lie when there is so much dirt already?

    And you end with another lie. I haven’t defended the EDL in anyway whatsoever. I have merely pointed out that your comment was offensive crap.

    You are a ‘right one’. Very damaging. Best rethink what you are doing.

  28. Jai — on 14th June, 2010 at 7:34 pm  

    Let’s revisit your exact words:

    Griffin wasn’t apologising for the ‘whole KKK’ he was referring to the particular branch that Duke himself founded in 1974 and the fact that Duke was renowned for modernising that branch and for promoting non-violence; he even allowed women and Catholics to join.

    Your spirited defence of Griffin and your desire to rush to the defence of Duke’s branch of the KKK is certainly interesting.

    And I’ve clearly touched a nerve with the Taliban analogy. Let’s look at my actual original remarks again — the whole paragraph, not just the single phrase which has offended you so much:

    It is clear that the EDL not only has striking parallels with Al-Muhajiroun along with the KKK, the National Front, and certain European fascist groups from the first half of the 20th century, but as a self-appointed paramilitary organisation geared towards terrorising & intimidating ordinary members of the civilian population (especially people from minority groups), the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban (particularly the version currently wreaking havoc in Pakistan) and fringe extremist Hindutva groups in India such as the RSS, Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal and Sri Ram Sena.

    Apart from the fact that the paragraph in its entirety makes it clear what context my statements were made in, it’s also fascinating that you’ve repeatedly singled out the reference to the Taliban and have not responded with such outrage to the simultaneous remark about the EDL’s similarity to, for example, the RSS and the Shiv Sena. In fact, the conspicuous silence is deafening.

    No prizes for guessing why.

    when there is so much dirt already?

    With all the real things that the BNP and EDL get up to

    If you’re aware of any further information that constitutes “so much dirt already” about the BNP and/or EDL, describing “all the real things that the BNP and EDL get up to”, then by all means please feel free to provide further details. We’re all ears.

  29. Kelly B — on 14th June, 2010 at 7:42 pm  

    Cav:

    I think you have more then made your point about this guys lies and I also think this guy is cuckoo bananas too and will never, ever admit that he has been caught out lying. The only thing to happen now is for him to make ever wilder accusations against you and make ever more offensive insults.

    Look at the way he starts off too “KB Player, I agree with your continuing observations” when as I pointed out, this character couldn’t be more wrong!!

    I say leave him to it Cav. You can see no one with any sense here agrees with this pish.

    Its already embarrassing home goal for all of us on the left who care about our credibility, no need to keep pressing now.

  30. Cav — on 14th June, 2010 at 8:01 pm  

    I see, Jai, you are so desperate to distract away from the fact that you have been caught out consistently lying that you are going even further into desperation and distraction mode.

    It really is sad, childish and pathetic. Grow a spine and admit that you were lying and then try and explain why.

    You even lied about your quote. You say: “almost completely non-violent, by the way”

    But the truth is:

    “always a totally non-violent one incidentally”

    Its just one lie after another with you, isn’t it?

    There is no need to revisit my words at all. They are all true.

    What we do need to do is revisit your words. They have all been lies.

    And of course pointing out the truth to someone of your mentality is ‘very wrong’ and equates to a “spirited defence of Griffin”
    and a “desire to rush to the defence of Duke’s branch of the KKK.”!!!

    When all I have actually done is make a ‘spirited defence’ of the truth over your lies!!

    Are you really, really so far gone that you cannot recognise that the truth is the truth? That speaking the truth is no defence of anything other then the truth?!

    What needs answering is not why I insist upon the truth, but why you insist upon lies.

    And as for this nonsense:“…not responded with such outrage to the simultaneous remark about the EDL’s similarity to, for example, the RSS and the Shiv Sena. In fact, the conspicuous silence is deafening…No prizes for guessing why.”

    Well its all quite simple and pretty bloody obvious really Jai: I am British and I live in Britain. I have never heard of these Indian groups and quite frankly I couldn’t give a shit about them. They have done nothing to me and they are not trying to kill my brother or my cousin. The Taliban are.

    You really should have enough decency to apologise for your stupid and deeply offensive remarks. You really should. But you don’t.

    I will say it again: People like you and crap like this seriously damages the creditability of the left. Cease and rethink.

    Emma B, I do see your point, but when this bloke keeps telling one lie after another and especially about me, I don’t fell inclined to stop. Would you?

  31. Jai — on 14th June, 2010 at 8:08 pm  

    I’m going to repeat the following question to you:

    when there is so much dirt already?

    With all the real things that the BNP and EDL get up to

    If you really are concerned about assisting “the left” and you’re aware of any further information that constitutes “so much dirt already” about the BNP and/or EDL, describing “all the real things that the BNP and EDL get up to”, then by all means please feel free to provide further details.

    Go ahead. We’re all ears.

  32. Cav — on 14th June, 2010 at 8:29 pm  

    Instead of repeatedly asking questions to distract from the fact that you keep getting caught out lying, why not at least try to play the decency game ever such a little and account for your own behaviour? Answer for some of your lies?

    If you really don’t know the ‘dirt’ that already exists on people like Griffin without having to make all of this stuff up then you really have no business posting on a popular blog at all. And clearly you don’t.

    But then this isn’t about that at all is it Jai? This is about distracting attention away from the lies you have told and twisting and turning desperately so that it might be forgotten or that I might stop asking you why you lie so easily and so frequently.

    The main thing that pissed me off was that stupid, idiotic offensive crap about “the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban” in light of my family (and some friends) circumstances.

    You are treating their very real risks as if it were all just some big game, some joke to be bantered around lightly because it doesn’t really matter and that makes me angry.

    How many of your family are serving Jai?

  33. persephone — on 14th June, 2010 at 11:31 pm  

    It seems that you cannot debate about BNP/EDL incidents unless you have a family member in the army …. Very Griffinesque tactics as employed by him on QT.

    You don’t have to purchase the bnp booklet on messaging to see it in very obvious demonstration.

  34. Cav — on 15th June, 2010 at 3:51 am  

    Persephone, that is just as dishonest and nonsensical as Jai’s drivel.

    The issue here is the truth and if you have read any of the above you will see that is not present here and if you haven’t you should have before you commented.

    If you are another with an issue with the truth then just come out and say it, let’s let not play these stupid cryptic games with empty vague statements left as some sort of deep meaning but only intended to cover up lies and attack those who point them out.

    And yeah, if you’re going to make stupid offensive comments about an enemy that is killing British soldiers and putting British people at risk then you are going to get some blowback. You don’t like that I don’t care.

    Stick to the truth.

  35. Jai — on 15th June, 2010 at 9:57 am  

    So, “Cav”, you make cryptic remarks about there being “so much dirt already” on the BNP & EDL along with “all the real things that the BNP and EDL get up to”, but you completely refuse to provide any examples when given the opportunity to do so. Very interesting.

    By the way, have you ever commented on this blog using a different username ?

  36. Cav — on 15th June, 2010 at 1:11 pm  

    Oh here we go Jai, I wondered how long it was going to take for your bog standard ‘you are someone else’ accusations. It seems to be your first and last resort, same way you ‘handled’ the last thread you link to when asked awkward questions and the same way you now intend handle this thread when you have been exposed as a liar.

    Of course, your latest lie will be just as unsupported as the rest.

    How pathetic.

    I don’t ‘refuse’ to do anything as you have no authority over me and I am not the one in the wrong here. You are.

    Like I said, if you don’t know the real history of people like Griffin without having to make pantomime stuff up then you really shouldn’t be posting on a popular blog. And you shouldn’t.

    You on the other hand refuse to explain why you have consistently lied throughout this thread and refuse to apologise for grossly offensive and completely wrong idiotic comments.

    You have refused to explain why you are playing the very distraction and projection games you cried about in your first fantasy comment.

    I have not posted on this blog as any one else (as if that would change the fact that you area a liar in any event) and as a result I know you cannot prove that I have, and you know it too.

    It is just another desperate distraction away from your pathological lies and patent dishonesty.

    What a piece of work you are. This creditability of this blog is greatly damaged by you and your easily exposed lies.

  37. Ravi Naik — on 15th June, 2010 at 1:27 pm  

    The main thing that pissed me off was that stupid, idiotic offensive crap about “the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban” in light of my family (and some friends) circumstances.

    Oh, you poor delicate flower. Does it offend you that hooligans like EDL are being called scum of the Earth?

    if you don’t know the real history of people like Griffin

    Oh, we can play this game. One fact you didn’t know about Nick Griffin:

    He was educated at Woodbridge School in Suffolk and won a sixth–form scholarship to the independent Saint Felix School in Southwold, becoming one of only two boys in the all girls school.

    Of course, he went on to punish his parents by bankrupting them.

  38. halima — on 15th June, 2010 at 1:44 pm  

    The EDL are thugs. They’re the scum of the earth.

    I’ll be looking forward to seeing how long it takes before its full identity is exposed and it tries to reinvent itself again.

    “It’s similar to the way Nick Griffin initially completely denied having shared a platform with ex-KKK leader David Duke when he was challenged about it on Question Time…”

    I couldn’t agree more, Jai. Only a matter of time.

  39. Cav — on 15th June, 2010 at 2:22 pm  

    I see Ravi Naik is another one who appears to comment without having read what is actually going on. At a minimum. Honesty really does seem to be a burning issue here and a tragic victim.

    If you had you would know that you now claim is not true either but that the only issue raised in that regard was this piece of wholly inaccurate and offensive rubbish by Jai:

    “the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban”

    But then if you had family serving in the British Armed Forces you would understand why. How much family do you have serving Ravi?

    And Halima none of your comments have any actual substance to them or bear any resemblance to reality, it is really hard to see what you seek to achieve other then thinking you are supporting a man who has been caught out consistently lying throughout this thread by empty affirmation.

    What on earth is “’I’ll be looking forward to seeing how long it takes before its full identity” supposed to mean when we all pretty much already know who and what they are already?

    What they are not though is the Taliban and nor have they killed anyone, planted any bombs, sniped anyone nor blown themselves up. They have most certainly not killed nor attempted to kill British soldiers either.

    So in reality the EDL are nothing like the Taliban, let alone “the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban” ]

    I take you also consider the Taliban to be the scum of the earth too Halima? And given their body count and tactics perhaps reserved for even more of your venom?

  40. Jai — on 15th June, 2010 at 2:30 pm  

    if you don’t know the real history of people like Griffin

    Cav, please feel free to share any incriminating information you are aware of in relation to “the real history of Griffin”, as per your previous remarks about “dirt” on the BNP and “the real things that the BNP get up to”.

    I’m sure that this website’s readership would be extremely interested in the examples you can presumably provide. Let’s hear it.

  41. halima — on 15th June, 2010 at 3:53 pm  

    What are you trying to achieve with your comments Cav?

    I make no apologies for calling the EDL the scum of the earth. The reality I am concerned about is to do with the fear they create in public spaces, the place that I call my home – that place is called England. I don’t need to be intellectual about it. There’s no intellectual argument to be made with racist thugs. EDL are racist thugs. That’s my beef.

    What’s yours? If the EDL is what is it – the scum of the earth, as racist thugs are known to be – there’s not much else to uncover about them then- so what’s your problem? It appears that we agree? Or, did you not think the EDL was the scum of the earth?

  42. c@v — on 15th June, 2010 at 4:01 pm  

    Well Halima, there is absolutely no need to ask me why I am commenting or what my issue is as I have repeated time and time again.

    But I would ask you what your relationship with the truth is when you again say:

    ““It’s similar to the way Nick Griffin initially completely denied having shared a platform with ex-KKK leader David Duke when he was challenged about it on Question Time…”

    I couldn’t agree more, Jai. Only a matter of time.

    After it has already been proven that the truth is that that is not what happened at all and having the posted the video to prove it.

    Why do you believe things that are not true?

    Why will you not condemn the Taliban as scum of the earth?

  43. c@v — on 15th June, 2010 at 4:09 pm  

    I’ll tell you what is very interesting Jai and that is this that you will say and do pretty much anything, especially to distract away from your lies and you will not accept or acknowledge that you are wrong in any shape form or fashion. A very weak and vain man.

    I am sure that most would be much more interested in you explaining why you as an author for this site are unable “share any incriminating information” about Griffin and the rest without resorting to easily exposed lies, gross exaggerations and offensive claptrap.

    After all, isn’t that what you are supposed to be doing here? Not me. I am not the one authoring pantomime drivel such as this and presenting it as a serious expose rather then a credibility damaging travesty.

    People like you who cannot tell the truth even when there are inordinate damaging truths to be told are nothing but a serious hindrance and a danger to those who can.

  44. c@v — on 15th June, 2010 at 4:15 pm  

    But Jai, if you really do need help doing your job have a read through just the Wiki entries on Griffin for a start.

    But more importantly seriously study this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalism_ethics_and_standards

    The central tenet will be alien to you I know and will need special study:

    “Every news organization has only its credibility and reputation to rely on.”

    (Oh and Griffin has been invited to a Palace garden party on July 22nd if that helps you do your job any…)

  45. halima — on 15th June, 2010 at 4:15 pm  

    “Well Halima, there is absolutely no need to ask me why I am commenting or what my issue is as I have repeated time and time again”

    Humour me. What’s your beef?

    Truth? That’s too philosophical for me. Try asking me what my relationship is with the EDL. I have spelled it out clearly. What’s your relationship with the EDL? What do you think of the EDL? That’s what this thread is about – the EDL and the BNP.

  46. Javid — on 15th June, 2010 at 4:20 pm  

    Now Nick the Prick has been invited to the Palace

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/politics/10318287.stm

  47. Jai — on 15th June, 2010 at 5:29 pm  

    People like you who cannot tell the truth even when there are inordinate damaging truths to be told are nothing but a serious hindrance and a danger to those who can.

    Cav, if you are one of “those who can tell inordinate damaging truths” about the BNP and/or EDL, please feel free to use this comments thread as an opportunity to provide full details about these “inordinate damaging truths”. Presumably you can supply specific examples, rather than simply advising people to check Wikipedia.

    Which truths about the BNP and/or EDL do you personally feel are particularly damaging to these organisations ?

  48. Don — on 15th June, 2010 at 6:16 pm  

    invited to the Palace

    Automatic, goes with being an MEP. When invited to the Palace most people would consider it disrespectful towards HM to decline. Last time at least Griffin grasped that it would be disrespectful to attend.

    Or am I giving him too much credit?

  49. c@v — on 15th June, 2010 at 7:49 pm  

    Jai,just more desperate distractions from you.

    You can’t even hit a large target such as Griffin without making up stories, playing infantile games and pretending you need answers to such an obvious question (which actually forms the core of your job) rather then making amends for your various deceits and omissions.

    Halima , thanks for clarifying your relationship with truth: Clearly it’s as tenuous as Jai’s and clearly you have no issue and “couldn’t agree more” with things that are not true and demonstrably proven not to be true. So there we go. Not much point really is there?

    My ‘beef’ once again is consistent throughout my comments so what are you really doing again? What are you seeking to achieve?

    Don ,yes it does come with being democratically elected, I was just playing Jai’s distraction game and feeding him something true.

    But on the theme of truth, I do think you are mistaken in conclusion as this is a non-political event that was politicised by opponents of the BNP (including Mayor BJ) when it emerged that Griffin may have attended as GLA member Barnbrook’s guest.

    Griffin said he decided not go in order not to ‘embarrass’ the Queen in the light of the political row over a non-political event but says he has now decided to go this time on his own invite, which of course, irregardless of what anyone thinks about him or his party is his right in a democracy.

    Something organisations that use similar tactics to Jai such as Searchlight really fail to grasp claiming “it was “bizarre” that Mr Griffin had received an invitation when his party had been soundly rejected by voters at the general election” when the truth and reality is that he was duly elected in the European elections the year before and the only real bizarre element here is their comments.

    What is so hard about sticking to the truth and making comments that bear some resemblance to reality?

  50. KB Player — on 15th June, 2010 at 9:37 pm  

    Wild accusations to cover up extreme ignorance?! Who would have thunk it?

    Well, Kelly B, are you a member of either the BNP or EDL? I have a theory that getting exercised about migration movements 13,000, 14,000, or 15,000 years ago is more a BNP thing than an EDL thing, and you could offer me a little evidence to support/refute this theory by agreeing/disagreeing with the following statements:-

    a) I am a member of the BNP
    b) I am a member of the EDL
    c) I am not a member of either the BNP or EDL

    You make me laugh. You should have paid more attention at school, but seeing as you didn’t, either get educated now or refrain from commenting on subjects you know nothing of, lest you look like a fool.

    Do British schools cover migration movements? I’ve heard that the history curriculum is concentrated on World War II, the American Civil Rights movement and the Tudors.

    At my school we did things like Parliamentary reform acts and education acts, extending the franchise and the Suffragettes – all rather more relevant to today’s Britain than migrant movements X thousands of years ago.

    You are the worst of the left; an embarrassment.

    I hope you’ve got “poo poo” and “pooh-pooh” sorted out. Now, that could be really embarrassing.

  51. Daniel Hoffmann-Gill — on 15th June, 2010 at 9:45 pm  

    What’s that I hear you say?

    Yet another BNP thread at Pickled Politics being used as a forum for racist nonsense?

    Smashing.

  52. c@v — on 15th June, 2010 at 10:56 pm  

    Daniel Hoffmann-Gill, what ‘racist nonsense’ would that be exactly?

    Certainly I haven’t seen any. Care to elaborate and qualify, rather then hit and run? Not likely I know, but the decent and constructive thing to do nonetheless.

    And it’s interesting that you aren’t at all bothered by all the lies the author has told, both in his post and most especially in this comments box.

  53. persephone — on 16th June, 2010 at 12:20 am  

    @34

    When using the Big Lie tactic you make a big lie and elaborate on it to exploit it to great extent. Its not about calling a whole heap of people liars as has been done on this thread. You really must re-read Mein Kampf or get the bnp messaging wagon to lurch over and do some re-training.

    You are coming across like an automated Dalek swirling around at all indiscriminately to spout the same re-iteration of ‘you are a liar’

  54. c@v — on 16th June, 2010 at 1:49 am  

    persephone,well thanks for that load of all rubbish, at least you’re consistent.

    The liars I have cited here, I have proven here.

    I have never read ‘Mein Kampf’ but clearly you have, and so have a few others here, it would seem by your reckoning.

    You have proven yourself to be just as dishonest as several others here so it is only natural you continue your ‘‘Mein Kampf Big Lie’ tactics on to try and accuse people that point out the lies as being something other then they are.

    Look over there, don’t look at me.

  55. Ravi Naik — on 16th June, 2010 at 11:09 am  

    “the EDL is also exactly like the Taliban”
    But then if you had family serving in the British Armed Forces you would understand why.

    Actually, I would think it is offensive for your family serving in the British Armed Forces to have someone like you carrying water for Chairman Griffin. Someone who a few months ago had Mark Collett on his right side who glorified Hitler and the nazi regime, and shared a platform with two notorious white power nationalists David Duke and Don Black – the latter being the founder of the largest neo-nazi forum on the internet.

    Something organisations that use similar tactics to Jai such as Searchlight really fail to grasp claiming “it was “bizarre” that Mr Griffin had received an invitation when his party had been soundly rejected by voters at the general election”

    You claim to speak the truth. How do you see the fact the BNP lost all 12 of its councillors in Barking and Dagenham, and relegated to 3rd place – even with Nick Griffin as the candidate?

    This seems to indicate that once people get to know the BNP and their representatives – the laziness, the ignorance and the mediocrity – they boot them out. Not one or two – all of them in one go! How humiliating.

    This is what I see, cavy. What do you see? (check the memo from your Chairman if you have trouble responding…)

  56. Jai — on 16th June, 2010 at 11:32 am  

    A few areas to clarify:

    Regarding the date for the end of the last Ice Age:

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Britain

    Extract:

    After the end of the last Ice Age (around 9500 BC),

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age

    Extract:

    the end of the last ice age, nearly 12,000 years ago,

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period

    Extract:

    The end of the last glacial period was about 12,500 years ago,

    Therefore, the last Ice Age did not end “14,000 years ago” as Kelly B claimed in #7, and Cav’s attempted contradiction of my original statements (see #23) was also false, as his quote by Professor Stephen Oppenheimer actually referred to Oppenheimer’s own estimate of the beginning of modern human settlement in Britain, not the timeline for the end of the last Ice Age.

  57. Jai — on 16th June, 2010 at 11:34 am  

    (continued)

    Regarding the beginning of modern human settlement in the British Isles, including Professor Stephen Oppenheimer’s own statements and his stance on the assertions of other experts:

    Source: http://timesonline.typepad.com/science/2009/10/nick-griffins-bad-science.html#more

    Extract:

    Professor Oppenheimer said:

    “I assumed he [Nick Griffin on Question Time] was misinterpreting me. After the programme I went back to look at what I’d written. I wrote quite a bit about issues of racism. I feared some people like Griffin would probably hijack this — I assumed that fascists would cherry-pick different bits from my book to support their views.”

    One aspect of Mr Griffin’s claims is very easily debunked. The date he quotes is flat-out wrong. Scientists agree Britain was unpopulated 17,000 years ago. Continuous habitation was established only about 15,000 years ago, according to Professor Oppenheimer, and other researchers think it was more recent still. Professor Chris Stringer, of the Natural History Museum, director of the Ancient Human Occupation of Britain (AHOB) project and author of Homo Britannicus, puts it at 11,500 years ago.

    Professor Oppenheimer said:

    “The date of 17,000 years ago is certainly wrong. There’s disagreement on the date from which Britain has been continuously inhabited — I would say 15,000 years ago, Chris Stringer would say 11,500 years. But it isn’t 17,000.”

    He said his work suggests that 75 per cent of ancestors, had arrived by about 6,200 years ago, and that plenty of migration continued after that, contributing to the British gene pool.

    …..Professor Oppenheimer’s also added a significant caveat to his research, which Mr Griffin has conveniently overlooked. It was designed to test the ancestry of populations before the industrial revolution.

    “It was based on a sample that was very carefully selected to include small market towns, of less than 5,000 people, which appeared in the Domesday Book. The goal was to get stable populations, not much affected by the population expansions of the 19th century and 20th century.”

    Some remarks by Professor Bryan Sykes:

    Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article2753556.ece

    Extract:

    PROFESSOR Bryan Sykes, chairman of Oxford Ancestors, a pioneer of DNA-based genealogy, believes his research proves that notions of race and ethnicity are merely constructs. Sykes spent five years analysing the DNA samples from 10,000 volunteers to produce a map of our genetic roots.

    …..“We are not a race at all. We’ve been mongrels for 10,000 years and it has done us a lot of good,” he said. “You find exactly the same DNA fingerprint in what you otherwise consider to be different ethnic groups. It shows those ethnic groups are relatively recent ethnic constructs. The history of our species is one of movement, mixing and flux. There is no such thing as a genetically pure race.”

    Details of the Ancient Human Occupation of Britain (AHOB) project and its continuing findings can be read here: http://www.ahobproject.org/ . It contains numerous press articles, PDF files etc.

  58. Jai — on 16th June, 2010 at 11:36 am  

    (continued)

    Regarding Nick Griffin’s reaction on Question Time to being confronted with the evidence of his appearance with ex-KKK leader David Duke:

    Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6886636.ece

    Extract:

    “Nick”, as everyone called him, did quite well during part of the show, but only when he was silent. The other parties squabbling about whose fault immigration was, favoured his cause. The point was that he was there to talk, and when he did it was usually catastrophic as a wider Britsh public became acquainted with Griffinism.

    Griffinism is a state of permanent denial, followed by self-incrimination and wild eccentricity. He was reminded by his host of the recorded speech he had made in 2000 to the American Friends of the BNP alongside the US Ku Klux Klan leader, David Duke. No, he corrected everyone, Duke was an ex-leader of “a” Ku Klux Klan, one which was “almost entirely non-violent, by the way”. That’s OK then.

    Here is an extract from the speech Griffin made to David Duke in the US, which Question Time host David Dimbleby then read back to him:

    Source: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/4800

    ”There’s a difference between selling out your ideas and selling your ideas. And the BNP isn’t about selling out its ideas, but we are determined to sell them. Basically that means to use saleable words such as freedom, security, identity, democracy. Nobody can criticise them. Nobody can come at you and attack you on those ideas – they are saleable. Perhaps one day, by being rather more subtle, once we’re in a position where we control the British broadcasting media, then perhaps one day the British people might change their mind and say ‘yes, every last one must go’. Perhaps they will one day. But if you hold that out as your sole aim to start with, you’re not going to get anywhere. So instead of talking about racial purity, we talk about identity.”

    Griffin’s subsequent lame ‘explanation’ of his remarks when challenged about them by Mr Dimbleby can of course be viewed in the numerous video clips available online.

  59. Jai — on 16th June, 2010 at 11:50 am  

    (continued)

    Cav’s remarks in #25:

    FYI I am nowhere near “far right”

    Cav’s remarks in #36:

    I have not posted on this blog as any one else (as if that would change the fact that you area a liar in any event) and as a result I know you cannot prove that I have, and you know it too.

    It is just another desperate distraction away from your pathological lies and patent dishonesty.

    The whole of #36 in particular is a prime example of someone “protesting a little too much”. A simple “No” would have been far more credible.

    “Cav’s” desperate attempts to avoid actually presenting specific examples of anything negative about the BNP or EDL despite being repeatedly given the opportunity to do so and despite his vague claims about “dirt”, “the real things that the BNP and EDL get up to”, and “inordinate damaging truths” are certainly entertaining, but entirely predictable.

    Readers are invited to browse through the previous BNP Update thread here http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/8727 and (especially) the BNP/Killer Question thread here http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/8222 in order to identify who “Cav” actually is. He’s not hiding his electronic tracks anywhere near as well as he thinks he is, and (as a number of you who have got in touch offline have observed) his identity is also very easily identifiable due to his prolific and very lengthy posts on numerous previous occasions.

  60. Jai — on 16th June, 2010 at 12:10 pm  

    A final comment, in light of Daniel Hoffman-Gill’s remarks in #51 (which I agree with).

    Some information about the BNP’s propaganda strategy, from the National Union of Journalists :

    Source: http://www.reportingthebnp.org/index.php/public-image/

    Source: http://www.reportingthebnp.org/index.php/publications/

    The BNP’s online activists have also been instructed to refrain from admitting their membership of the party when engaged in furthering the BNP’s agenda via the internet.

    As many regular readers have realised, “Cav” is actually a BNP activist who originally used the alias “I Am English”/ “IAE” on the BNP/Killer Question thread. More recently he also used the alias “Ant” on the previous BNP Update thread, although he’s used other aliases in the interim, most notably “Jonathan”.

    Cav/IAE/Ant/Jonathan admitted to being a member of the BNP on the Killer Question thread, and (as mentioned in #140 and #142 of that thread) also wrote on Lee John Barnes’ website in order to claim responsibility for the series of cyberattacks on the blog Harry’s Place earlier this year which resulted in the website’s owners having to spend a considerable amount of money to replace HP’s server in order to repair the extensive damage. I’ll re-publish the extract from #142 in full, as follows:

    Hi lee,

    I am delighted to see I brought that blatantly fascist and freedom of speech suppressing site down and have cost them a considerable sum of money too, Lee.

    Here is the real story behind it:

    I had been posting reasoned and polite comments there a little while ago but the comments were just too intelligent and evidenced for them to handle so the usual tricks were resorted to, you know, deletions, malicious amendments, insults and the favoured one being accusing me of being you Lee, as if that somehow would negate the content anyway!
    I ran rings around the brain dead fanatics on there and started exposing them as bare faced liars one by one.

    From some muppet called Adrian Morgan who thought all of his previous extremely positive online musings about the “right” and the BNP had gone away (things are never really gone on the internet) and couldn’t bare being presented with the facts that pretty much all of what he claimed to believe in and support on Harry’s Place flies in the face of everything he had said and written over the years. He went into hysterical overdrive faking abusive comments and then bizarrely threatening “police action” and Harry’s Place censorship.

    Of course by this time I had thoroughly exposed the resident troll “graham” and his multiple sock puppets for the lying ignorant bitter fool he is (my favourite was his abysmal grasp of technology and the lie that even his own couldn’t defend!) as well as many as other such as the faux serviceman “sackcloth and ashes”, “josh”, “ana” and “old sailor” as well as the hater-in-chief Edmund Standing amongst many others of the usual HP cronies. I would provide links but they have buried the evidence! They know who they are and what happened though!

    So of course, after all of the underhanded games and posturing they “banned” me (so they thought) and I actually warned them then what I intended to do in regards to having the site taken down if they continued to lie and censor. After all, registering fake details is in breach of the regulations so they only have themselves to blame and why would any honest decent person need to do so anyway? It is what criminals and terrorist do, not ordinary law-abiding citizens.

    As per usual they thought they were above it all, a law unto themselves and they scoffed at it. It wasn’t overnight, as bureaucratic processes never are, but around 2 months later my efforts came to fruition and my promise was realised.

    They weren’t laughing then.

    Expensive business all in all, this cheating, lying, corruption, censorship and underhanded game playing.

    Best stick to honesty and fairness really.

    Especially as the details they have used for their new hosting site are still fake and ICANN is international and cares not for content nor “US 1st amendment rights” but the policing of domains and the registration of the correct details and so in has gone another complaint already in retaliation for the continued cheating, lying, corruption, censorship and underhanded game playing of this insidious vile site and down it will come again (sorry “Ana”, yet again you are the blind being led the ignorant and blind, the HP caveat doesn’t stand up in reality.)

    In fact the US authorities (ICANN aside) are even less tolerant then most about fake registration details and are extremely sensitive that such dishonesty is usually associated with crooks and terror groups.

    They can’t say they weren’t given fair chance, Lee, they can’t say they weren’t warned and they can’t say they didn’t bring it entirely upon themselves.

    Anyhow we have an election to get on with, and it’s just possible I might bring down this smear and lie site down once again before it, who knows? Either ways, it is going to cost them lots more money in the not too distant future.

    Happy days.

    Rumbold permanently banned this individual from PP several weeks before the General Election. Therefore, further comments by him on this thread will be summarily deleted, and any supporting comments by his fellow BNP activists will share the same fate.

  61. Daniel Hoffmann-Gill — on 16th June, 2010 at 5:31 pm  

    Jai, you have seriously warmed the cockles of my heart, you really have, to be rid of scum like this from a blog such as this is a real breakthrough and joy.

    Fascinating insight into the deluded behaviour of the individual in question.

    Excellent stuff!

  62. persephone — on 16th June, 2010 at 11:52 pm  

    C@v
    “ accuse people that point out the lies as being something other then they are.”

    And you would be the one to know about being something other than what you make out. Is this your 4/5th different handle on this site? You get more rabid the more you are exposed out of your BNP lair. Why not be proud of your membership? Is there something so rancid about being a member that you have to hide behind a facade of names.

    “at least you’re consistent.”

    Its part of having integrity and order. You should try it sometime.

    And order is a good olde English virtue. Thank you for ratifying my Englishness.

    In fact from your behaviour on this thread I have evinced more Englishness than you. Maybe my DNA is more English than yours methinks?

  63. persephone — on 17th June, 2010 at 12:14 am  

    Cav @ 34: “ if you’re going to make stupid offensive comments about an enemy that is killing British soldiers and putting British people at risk then you are going to get some blowback. You don’t like that I don’t care.”

    If you feel so strongly about protecting the reputation of the British military what do you (as a self quoted relative of army personnel) and your family members in the Army, think of Nick Griffins comparison of distinguished Army chiefs to Nazi war criminals? On the BNP website Griffin (who also tells us that his father was in the Army) reminded people that the Nazi generals complicit in Hitler’s illegal wars were brought to justice and hanged.

  64. Jai — on 17th June, 2010 at 10:45 am  

    Jai, you have seriously warmed the cockles of my heart, you really have, to be rid of scum like this from a blog such as this is a real breakthrough and joy.

    Fascinating insight into the deluded behaviour of the individual in question.

    Excellent stuff!

    Thanks Daniel. I hope you found the main article informative too.

  65. Jai — on 17th June, 2010 at 11:11 am  

    Persephone,

    Cav/Ant/IAE/Jonathan was banned from PP by Rumbold several months ago, as mentioned in #60, so his comments overnight have been deleted. However, your own points are excellent as always.

    Incidentally, Nick Griffin’s father was in the RAF, not the Army. However, he was actually a radio technician, and was not directly involved in any combat.

    Furthermore, there are some serious question marks about whether Griffin has been lying about his father’s military record, especially his alleged involvement in WW2. The matter was noticed by many people after Griffin’s playground-style “my dad versus your dad” remarks to Jack Straw on Question Time, and you can read a detailed analysis of it here: http://liberalconspiracy.org/2009/10/23/did-griffin-lie-about-his-fathers-war-record/

    Either way, Nick Griffin’s hypocrisy continues to mount, considering that in the late 1990s, he organised a demonstration outside Coventry Cathedral where he accused RAF veterans of “mass murder” for their involvement in the war effort against Nazi Germany: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1187368/Family-Winston-Churchill-slams-BNP-far-right-partys-attempt-hijack-wartime-leaders-legacy.html

  66. persephone — on 17th June, 2010 at 8:51 pm  

    Thanks Jai

    Interesting reading about Nick Griffins father taking tea with Indian ladies … I always thought that Nick may come close to not passing his own test of not looking English enough, he has a slight swarthy tint to his complexion …. wait in that case you never know some of us could be related to Nick …!

  67. persephone — on 17th June, 2010 at 11:09 pm  

    its amazing how griffins spot on QT is all misrepresented as a lie. I suppose because the truth is too damning and shameful.

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