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  • The blurry line of racism


    by Sunny
    11th November, 2006 at 9:19 am    

    In the comments section of Clairwil’s earlier article on Kriss Donald’s murder, Tottenham Lad has written an interesting comment articulating how he moved from the anti-racist left (through many marches) to being a bit fearful of immigrants and anyone non-white. To put it politely. It’s worth reading, at least for his honesty and the insight it offers.

    There are three obvious points to make:

    1) He is fixated on the small number of non-white on white murders as evidence that all non-white people are to be feared. This is absurd in itself, made worse by some statistics The Economist recently cited: “A large survey carried out by the Home Office in 2003 found that white men were more likely to admit to having broken the law in the past year than were blacks, Asians or people of mixed race.” Clairwil makes a similar point in response.

    2) Becoming prejudiced in response to attacks or abuse suffered from those of the other races (or religions) is not exactly uncommon. In fact Asians do this all the time and have done for centuries, and it really annoys me. Sure, people are a product of experiences but do you not have a brain to tell you that making generalisations based on a very few isolated experiences is a dumb idea?

    3) Sure, many parts of Britain have become more crime-ridden in past decades but it is absurd and baseless to blame this entirely on immigrants. It completely negates the impact of crime by white people. But this is exactly what TL is doing and New Labour is now in the habit of doing - blaming wider social ills on minority groups as an object of their frustrations.

    Anyway, on Thursday morning I was invited to Asian Network’s morning debate on Kriss’ murder. The presenter simply invited people on air to ask inane questions such as whether Asians were more or less racist than others, or whether they were racist at all. Is the Pope Catholic? Are we a special race? If anything, we have even more issues with religious bigotry and casteism. You can listen here, it was a silly but amusing debate.

    A bizarre thing happened. All throughout, this gentleman, Derek Campbell, of some equality commission, kept saying he had examples of racism from minority groups and all this prejudice needed challenging. Of course I agreed. We absolutely need a strong anti-racist movement within the British Asian community.

    Near the end the presenter finally decides to explore people’s limits of tolerance. Would you be happy with your daughter/son marrying someone of a different race? Mr Campbell, of Afro-Caribbean origin, says his daughter was dating an Asian man but he was absolutely opposed to her marrying out of race because it would dilute her Afro-Caribbean heritage. Wtf? Another guest, some Asian musician by the name of Notorious Jatt (don’t ask), said the same. Both were apparently committed anti-racists and both said this wasn’t a racist position to take.

    This is downright stupidity. I realise the lines of what is construed as racism is blurred but if anyone feels their racial genes are so pure they need to be preserved through marriage, and want to prevent their children marrying someone of a different race, then they are a racist. There aren’t any exceptions. They should just admit it. And it would help if they didn’t pretend to be some anti-racist goody two-shoes and then take that position. It’s crap.


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    1. ZinZin — on 11th November, 2006 at 9:51 am  

      TL is under the impression that asian men who own takeaways use them to dispose of bodies and feed them to their customers.

      Mixed Marriages i think i will side step that one. In the past a mixed marriage was a union between a catholic and protestant.

    2. Nick — on 11th November, 2006 at 10:11 am  

      A (hindu) girlfriend of mine (I’m white) once told me her parents said it was fine to date white guys but they would never forgive her if she dated a black or a muslim. I’ve gone out with black girls who get hassle from black guys for dating me and I swear the parents of a French girlfriend were horrified with the thought she was going out with an Englishman!

      Racism, xenophobia etc are endemic throughout all cultures and age groups - its a human condition. The white working class (my own tribe) are as racist and ignorant as every other tribe. Implying that one group is actually less ignorant than any other is pretty racist itself, though I have to say I had to stop my dad when he was recently in hospital trying to set me up with one of the asian doctors cos she was “just your type”.

      My current girlfriend, incidentally, is Italian. So maybe I’m racist against white English women?!

    3. Vikrant — on 11th November, 2006 at 11:05 am  

      A (hindu) girlfriend of mine (I’m white) once told me her parents said it was fine to date white guys but they would never forgive her if she dated a black or a muslim.

      Well generally Hindus are notoriously endogamous. I’m surprised her parent even allowed her to date white guys!
      Well most Hindu communities have edicts against marrying Muslims. I think even a Sikh Guru had forbidden Sikhs from marrying Muslims. Maratha Hindus in particular are known for their very Sicilian codes of honour when it comes to marrying Muslims!

    4. Jai — on 11th November, 2006 at 12:01 pm  

      =>”I think even a Sikh Guru had forbidden Sikhs from marrying Muslims.”

      It was Guru Gobind Singh, and the reason was because one normally (especially in those days) has to convert to Islam in order to marry a Muslim woman.

    5. Anon+1 — on 11th November, 2006 at 12:10 pm  

      How on earth can you call someone a racist for wanting their heritage preserved, thats a pathetic comment to make. Just because your bloodline isnt worth preserving doesnt mean other peoples arnt.
      I wouldnt want any future children of mine diluting the race by marrying anyone non-white and I will make this very clear to them when the times comes.

    6. Soozy — on 11th November, 2006 at 12:30 pm  

      Tottenham Lad is a good man whose feelings have been hurt. I experienced racism from white people when I was growing up and for some years, I was afraid and angry of white people, however I do not feel that way now at all. So Totteneham Lad, I was very moved and touched by your post, but I have to ask you, please don’t hate all black and Asian people because of your experience.

    7. raz — on 11th November, 2006 at 12:37 pm  

      “Notorious Jatt”

      LOL! Soon there will be a Notorious Hundal

      Forget Asians marrying between Muslim/Hindu/Sikh. Even marrying people from different castes/sects causes problems. And as for marrying blacks - don’t even go there! Asian stupidity and ignorance knows no bounds.

      “I wouldnt want any future children of mine diluting the race by marrying anyone non-white and I will make this very clear to them when the times comes”

      Poor children. I pity them.

    8. ZinZin — on 11th November, 2006 at 12:40 pm  

      “I wouldnt want any future children of mine diluting the race by marrying anyone non-white and I will make this very clear to them when the times comes”

      Note future children.

    9. Nick — on 11th November, 2006 at 12:41 pm  

      Anon+1 perfectly illustrates why racism (and active racists like it) are so stupid. Who’s to say there’s not a little Mongol or African or Chinaman lurking in all of us, though in Anon’s case it’s probably a rather thick one…

    10. raz — on 11th November, 2006 at 12:43 pm  

      What’s Tottenham Lad’s opinion on Harold Shipman, Fred West, Ian Brady, Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Huntley, Thomas Hamilton, Michael Ryan, etc? Almost all the worst murderers in recent British history are white, so his narrow-minded focus on ethnic murderers is hysterical to say the least. A scumbag is a scumbag - full stop.

    11. ZinZin — on 11th November, 2006 at 12:43 pm  

      Good point Nick.
      I have an Irish surname. This just one example.

    12. Jai — on 11th November, 2006 at 12:44 pm  

      =>”I wouldnt want any future children of mine diluting the race by marrying anyone non-white”

      Quite ironic considering how many English people aren’t actually genetically “pure white” anyway. Even Carol Thatcher turned out to be 25% Middle-Eastern. And remember that young guy I mentioned will be profiled on the programme on Channel 4 on Monday who turned out to be 20% Asian. All of these people had regarded themselves as being “100% Anglo-Saxon”.

      Perhaps it would be worthwhile for anyone regarding himself/herself as being “pure white” to invest the approximately £200 in the relevant DNA test so that they can find out the truth.

    13. Soozy — on 11th November, 2006 at 1:04 pm  

      Marrying outside of a minority community is always going to have implications for some people from that community that it will not have for people from the mainstream. Take for example the Jewish community. If they had simply assimilated and married out completely into British life 300 years ago there would probably be hardly any Jews left in England now. It’s not always as simple an issue as some people make out. Are Jews who want their children to marry Jewish people bigots or racists? You might not like their thinking, but it’s harsh to describe them ALL like that. I think the same thinking is present amongst Asians. You can castigate them as racist, but I don’t think it helps to understand the subtleties of the issue for some people, or why they think that way.

    14. Douglas Clark — on 11th November, 2006 at 1:07 pm  

      Jai,

      Well said. For anyone interested we probably all had the same mum and dad about 60,000 years ago.

      https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html

      This nonsense of ‘racial purity’ ties quite nicely into your other thread, does it not?

    15. Jai — on 11th November, 2006 at 1:26 pm  

      Douglas Clark,

      =>”This nonsense of ‘racial purity’ ties quite nicely into your other thread, does it not?”

      Exactly ;)

    16. Rakhee — on 11th November, 2006 at 1:35 pm  

      There does need to be a big anti-racism movement in the Asian community. There’s an awful saying some indian communities where parents say to their kids, No BMWs (Blacks, Muslims or Whites allowed. Things like this don’t help!!

      If we want things to change, we need to start judging people on their behaviours and not what race they are. This means a process of education for the generations to come but isn’t help by the relentless media sensationalism which we saw for example last week.

      E.g. in an interview with a friend of the boy who was killed, he kept referring to the gang as Asians, as opposed to boys or lads. ‘The Asians took him, The Asians have got their just punishment’ etc etc.

      Turn this around for a minute, if a group of white lads had killed an asian kid, would the media air interviews showing an asian friend saying ‘The Whites took him?”

      It seems that every time something like this happens, it’s an Asian or Black or Muslim thing. How on earth can we progress if this carries on?

    17. Anon+1 — on 11th November, 2006 at 1:40 pm  

      Im stupid because I dont want a black grandson? Id rather him/her be the same colour as me just like my Mother, and her mother etc etc.
      If you are ashamed of the white race then go ahead with ure racism claims to anyone who shows some pride. Its you morons who are ripping this country apart with ure nonsense.
      Besides Asians are the most fanitical about keeping it in the family, all that inbreeding explains why your women have facial hair.

      Oh and wow zin zin, you really are on the case! You spotted the word “Future” which implied i dont actually have any children yet, that really tore my arguement to pieces.

    18. raz — on 11th November, 2006 at 1:49 pm  

      “Besides Asians are the most fanitical about keeping it in the family, all that inbreeding explains why your women have facial hair”

      Troll confirmed.

      BTW our women are fucking hot.

    19. Anas — on 11th November, 2006 at 1:51 pm  

      Basically, TL is using the allegedly all-pervasive racism in ethnic minority communities to justify his own racism. Can’t anyone see anything paradoxical in that? Can’t anyone see anything strange about TL being so bothered about racist attacks against whites when a massively disproportionate(relative to population) number of racist attacks are against ethnic minorities, when most racist discrimination is against ethnic minorities? Surely if he was upset by racism per se that would factor in to his concerns.

      In the end isn’t it obvious that TL and other (potential) members of the BNP are so angry at racism against whites, precisely because it’s racism against white people, and therefore automatically less acceptable than racism against others? It’s obvious in order to maintain any consistency in this, you must make a stand against all forms of racism; and that includes forms that you may be at risk of pedalling yourself. Yes, a large number of asian and black people may be guilty of racism themselves, and maybe this isn’t recognised by the media as much as it should be. But this in no way justifies then holding racist views against them.

    20. Jai — on 11th November, 2006 at 1:59 pm  

      =>”Besides Asians are the most fanitical about keeping it in the family”

      That’s like saying “Europeans are the most fanatical about drinking beer”. It doesn’t make sense — which Europeans ? All of them ? To an equal degree ?

      Same principle applies to the “Asian” argument.

      =>”explains why your women have facial hair”

      Yes, there is a specific gene regarding female facial hair which is lacking in all other ethnic groups in the world. Only Asian women possess this gene, which is why facial hair bleaching/removal cosmetic products are not available anywhere outside the Indian subcontinent. Go to your local pharmacy or supermarket, and you won’t be able to find such products anywhere.

      Sure…..

    21. Soozy — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:00 pm  

      Anas, I used to be scared of white people because of the racist abuse I suffered as a child. However as I grew older I grew out of that. If Tottenham Lad has expereinced something similar, we should try to persuade him not to view all black people as violent criminals in the same way that I dont view all white people as vicious racists. You cannot hold to ideas of collective guilt. That is what causes the problems in the first place.

    22. ollie — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:01 pm  

      Three cheers for Nick Griffin,Mark Collet and free speech.Hear MP Crudas is moaning about rising popularity of the BNP in Labour heartlands. Two MPs for the BNP in Dagenham and Barking don’t you think?

    23. Anas — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:02 pm  

      In response to all the racists, I’d like to quote Bob Marley:

      Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery…

    24. Nick — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:03 pm  

      Soozy - with respect to the Jews, I don’t think the same applies to Asians. 200 years ago there was no Jewish homeland. Indeed, after expulsion from Israel some 2000 years or so ago, the Jews kept their idea of the Jewish “nation” alive by seeking to “keep it in the family” so to speak, along the mother’s line at least… however the same does not apply to Asians. No danger of the Indian or Pakistani nation disappearing because of the mating habits of British Asians!

      Anyway, race and culture are separate issues - I think the Jews are one of the first examples of how a non-Christian culture can successfully integrate with and enrich British culture while retaining its own identity.

      Anon+1 - isn’t racist abuse routinely deleted on this blog?

    25. Soozy — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:11 pm  

      Nick

      With respect, I think that there is a large comparison, after all, if it was a question of there being a homeland, there would be no assimilation anxiety amongst people in the Jewish diaspora since the existence of Israel.

      You dont really understand the dynamics of how it works. Most British Asians are not anxious about the dissapearence of India due to the assimilation of British Asians, they are affected by the anxieties of dissapearence within the mainstream society here, as British Indians, in the same way that some British Jews are concerned about it. If you dont understand this, you dont understand those concerns. But as a member of the majority community, it is possible that you simply are not sensitive to these experiences and sensibilities.

      By the way, I am not judging this — I am simply explaining the dynamics and the reason for their existence.

    26. Anas — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:21 pm  

      Racism is never justified because it is based on an aspect of someone’s identity that they very clearly could not have chosen or have no responsibilty over. Other forms of prejudice, i.e., against an ideology or religion, have at least the excuse that(if you’re an adult)you make a choice whether to follow a religion or a particular set of political beliefs.

    27. Nick — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:28 pm  

      Soozy - I think you are quite right. I’m probably not being sensitive. On the other hand, being a bit of a mix myself, I’m not convinced about the benefits of this attitude if it exists. After all, if my forebears had all kept to their own nationalities and religions then I wouldn’t exist as the apparent embodiment of Englishness I am… ;)

      If I moved to Italy with my girlfriend and we had kids, I wouldn’t insist they kept to pale-skinned English protestants when it came to who they dated.

    28. PedanticLurker — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:28 pm  

      Quite ironic considering how many English people aren’t actually genetically “pure white” anyway. Even Carol Thatcher turned out to be 25% Middle-Eastern. And remember that young guy I mentioned will be profiled on the programme on Channel 4 on Monday who turned out to be 20% Asian. All of these people had regarded themselves as being “100% Anglo-Saxon”.

      This isn’t the killer argument you think it is, because, although there are of course exceptions, white Britons really are a pretty homogenous lot genetically, as modern DNA research shows, despite the wishful thinking of ‘Mongrel Nation’ theorists.

      (Personal note: I’m an American of German descent, so all of this has nothing to do with me.)

      A number of books on just this subject have been published recently, and today’s FT has a round-up of them.

      Excerpt:

      Sykes and Oppenheimer come to a similar overall conclusion: that there has been far more continuity in the British population than anyone previously suspected.

      Most people in the UK and Ireland today are descended directly from hunter-gatherers who settled more than 6,000 years ago in what Sykes calls “the Isles”. The invaders from Scandinavia and continental Europe - from the Roman withdrawal in about 400AD to the Norman conquest in 1066 - made surprisingly little impact on the gene pool.

      As Sykes puts it, “we are an ancient people, and though the Isles have been the target of invasion and opposed settlement from abroad ever since Julius Caesar first stepped on to the shingle shores of Kent, these have barely scratched the topsoil of our deep-rooted ancestry.” There is little truth to the popular view that the Angles and Saxons massacred and displaced England’s indigenous Celtic population - an invasion classified in some modern texts as genocide. St Gildas, the 6th-century Celtic monk whose bloodcurdling tract on The Ruin of Britain was the original source of this view, turns out to have been an effective anti-Anglo-Saxon propagandist - but a very misleading historian.

    29. Vikrant — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:40 pm  

      Perhaps it would be worthwhile for anyone regarding himself/herself as being “pure white” to invest the approximately £200 in the relevant DNA test so that they can find out the truth.

      Yep, i’m gonna send my DNA to Oxford Ancestors, once i arrange £499. I for one will turn up with varied ancestry, given my Maratha-Rajput ancestry. My Marathi side of family probably does have Bene-Israeli ancestry. I guess i’ll turn up an Indo-Aryan with Scythian, Hunnic and Dravidian ancestry and a dash of Arab, Mongol and Persian (all the women they raped!)…

    30. PedanticLurker — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:42 pm  

      Apologies. I appear to have left the tag open.

    31. PedanticLurker — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:42 pm  

      Tag closing.

    32. Soozy — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:48 pm  

      Nick, moral judgment does not really explain why people fear the loss of self that assimilation anxiety provokes. If you don’t get that, you won’t really understand the dynamics that underlies this concern, and why even people like me, the product of a mixed marriage between a Sikh father and Hindu mother, can empathise, even a small degree, with that feeling. And I know people who have married outside their group, are often the ones most eager to make sure their children have some affinity with their traditions, more than those who take it for granted because they have not married out.

    33. Katy — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:53 pm  

      Im stupid because I dont want a black grandson? Id rather him/her be the same colour as me just like my Mother, and her mother etc etc.

      What if your grandchildren don’t have the same hair colour as you? Will you leave them by a reservoir in a shopping trolley?

    34. S — on 11th November, 2006 at 2:55 pm  

      I think you’ve slightly abused the message of the Economist article. I quote:

      “One reason poor British whites have escaped scrutiny is that they are less associated with serious criminality than other ethnic groups, particularly Afro-Caribbeans. British blacks are disproportionately young and tend to live in big cities, which are heavily policed. They may be more likely to commit the sort of extravagantly violent crimes that attract stiff sentences. It is this reason, rather than any racial bias in the criminal-justice system, that explains why they are over-represented in prison compared with whites.

      But whites actually commit more crime. ”

      I read recently that young white crime is predominantly breaking and entering whilst black crime is street robbery. I’m not saying though that TL is right- as black on black violence seems to me to be the main problem. Here in Brixton I feel that the hoodies just don’t see a sad white nerd like me as any sort of threat, opportunity, or challenge (good).

    35. Caliban — on 11th November, 2006 at 3:12 pm  

      This interesting — check out what Griffin and Collet really believe in. Collett in particular seems like an especially charming man.

      What the jury did not hear

      Below are opinions voiced by the two men in the past, either publicly or privately

      NICK GRIFFIN

      NICK GRIFFIN, 47, married, four children. Cambridge law graduate. Attended his first National Front meeting aged 15. Became NF vice-chairman. Joined BNP in 1995

      Received nine-month suspended prison sentence at Harrow Crown Court in May 1998 for inciting racial hatred in his magazine, The Rune. Elected leader of BNP in 1999

      ON RACE “Without the White race, nothing matters. [Other right-wing parties] believe that the answer to the race question is integration and a futile attempt to create “Black Britons”, while we affirm that non-Whites have no place here at all and will not rest until every last one has left our land”

      ON THE HOLOCAUST “The ‘extermination’ tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie and latter witch-hysteria”

      ON POWER “When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate. We have to have a body of trained young men capable of defending our organisation. If people come to crack our heads we will break theirs”

      MARK COLLETT

      AGED 26, single, educated at Loughborough Grammar School and Leeds University, graduate in business and economics, self-employed graphic designer. Former chairman of the Young BNP, now the party’s director of publicity.

      ON WINSTON CHURCHILL “Churchill was a f****** c*** who led us into a pointless war with other whites standing up for their race.”

      ON THE PRINCE OF WALES “He’s a f****** traitor. Did you hear him say we needed more mosques in this country? All Muslims are anti-British terrorists.”

      ON WHETHER BRITISH-BORN BLACKS ARE BRITISH “Just because a dog is brought up in a stable doesn’t make him a horse.”

      ON THE ROYAL FAMILY “The Royals have betrayed their people. When we’re in power they’ll be wiped out and we’ll get some Germans to rule properly.”

      ON AIDS A “friendly disease because blacks, drug users and gays have it.”

      ON JEWS “There’s not a European country the Jews haven’t been thrown out of. When it happens that many times, it’s not just persecution. There’s no smoke without fire.”

      ON ADOLF HITLER “Hitler will live forever; and maybe I will.”

    36. Sunny — on 11th November, 2006 at 3:29 pm  

      Nice one Caliban. I wonder how many supporters of Griffin who use the “we only want to preserve our heritage” line still agree with all of what they said.

      My view is simple - anyone who thinks that their heritage or bloodline or race is superior than others, and therefore wants to prevent their offspring from marrying out of that tribe, is being racist.

      You may not like being labelled as a racist, but you are being one. In it’s basic form, racism is discrimination on the basis that one tribe is more superior than the other.

      How do you pass on the cultural heritage or religion? You teach your kids about the religion and the heritage on both sides and let them make up their own minds, or help them live with multiple-identities.

      That isn’t so difficult. I’m British Asian with multiple identities relating to different religions and cultures. It doesn’t confuse me it enriches me.

    37. Douglas Clark — on 11th November, 2006 at 3:46 pm  

      Pedantic Lurker,

      Interesting. Another quote from the same piece:

      “Three-quarters of British ancestors arrived long before the first farmers,” says Oppenheimer. “This applies to 88 per cent of Irish, 81 per cent of Welsh, 79 per cent of Cornish, 70 per cent of the people of Scotland and 68 per cent of the English.” Or, as Sykes puts it, “overall the genetic structure of the Isles is stubbornly Celtic, if by that we mean people who were here before the Romans and who spoke a Celtic language.”

      68% is certainly a majority, but it is hardly a killer punch to Jai’s thesis, is it? If Carol Thatcher was 25% Middle Eastern, then those that are 32% ‘other’ might be even more surprised, pleasantly or otherwise. Given that I suspect this change is actually a recent event, within a few generations say, you’d want to do a cohort analysis of these figures, comparing people of different age groups to see whether the trend was up, down or static. I suspect it’s up, but that’s just a guess based on people of obviously different races holding hands in public ;) .

    38. Anon+1 — on 11th November, 2006 at 4:00 pm  

      Katy theres a bit of a difference between hair colour and race. I really dont understand whats wrong with wanting ure kids to stick to the same colour.

      As for insults, i believe i was insulted first.

    39. Anas — on 11th November, 2006 at 4:25 pm  

      Nice article Caliban. I’m quoting that the next time anyone tries to justify voting for the BNP.

    40. PedanticLurker — on 11th November, 2006 at 4:44 pm  

      Douglas,

      No, that 68% is for pre-Roman heritage, not for total ‘white’/European/’Caucasoid’ (choose by taste) heritage. If 68% of white English ancestry is pre-Roman Celtic, it’s reasonable to assume that the bulk of the rest of their ancestry comes from other white sources (Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman, etc etc etc), although I would have to purchase one of the books in question to see if they break the answer down more than that.

      Having said that, I doubt the non-European component, on average, is all that much, as studies of the white American population (which has been living in proximity to large non-European communities for considerably longer than is the case in Britain) have shown low average amounts of non-European ancestry.

      Are all white Britons of unmixed European ancestry extending back tens of millennia? No, obviously not. Do white Britons have a high proportion of non-European ancestors in the last couple thousand years? Not really. Carol Thatcher is an outlier, and arguments that use exceptions to disprove rules always strike me as silly. There are lots of tall women in the WNBA, but that doesn’t mean the average woman is as tall as the average man.

      Given that I suspect this change is actually a recent event, within a few generations say, you’d want to do a cohort analysis of these figures, comparing people of different age groups to see whether the trend was up, down or static. I suspect it’s up, but that’s just a guess based on people of obviously different races holding hands in public

      It’s clearly up and is going to be increasing.

    41. ollie — on 11th November, 2006 at 4:48 pm  

      Justification for voting BNP look no further than Islam. The BNP do Not kill people eg 9/11 and 7/7.The BNP exposed Muslim paedophiles, no argument there. If the paedophile claim was incorrect Nick Griffin would now be in prison. The BNP do not threaten to behead innocent people who have given them a home. No the BNP are as children compared to evil Islam and this Englishman WILL be voting for thm along with a many many more!

    42. Anas — on 11th November, 2006 at 4:52 pm  

      So you endorse the views of Messrs Griffin and Collett as quoted in post #35, Ollie?

    43. Not Saussure — on 11th November, 2006 at 5:11 pm  

      Ollie, are we to take it that you object to ‘Muslim paedophiles’ primarily on the grounds of their religion?

      Surely not, I’d have thought.

      That being the case, why are you so concerned about the activities of child-abusers from one particular background? Presumably if Hizb-ut Tahir ‘exposed Christian pedophiles’, this wouldn’t cause you to develop a sudden enthusiasm for radical Islam.

    44. ollie — on 11th November, 2006 at 5:29 pm  

      Yes Anas, like millions of others agree with every word Nick Griffin has said.

    45. Jai — on 11th November, 2006 at 5:38 pm  

      =>”The BNP do Not kill people ”

      Not yet.

      **************

      Caliban,

      I have to echo the plaudits for your post #35. I’ve said previously on PP that given the BNP’s fascist leanings and obvious racist ideology — which has more in common with Nazism than anything else — they are the biggest traitors of all, and violate everything the Allied powers fought against in World War 2.

      The very name “British National Party” is a joke and an oxymoron. There’s nothing “British” about it, and for them to claim that they stand for the defence of “British values” is gross hypocrisy. Perhaps “British Nazi Party” might be more appropriate.

    46. Jai — on 11th November, 2006 at 5:41 pm  

      =>”Yes Anas, like millions of others agree with every word Nick Griffin has said.”

      Which means that Muslim jihadists are not the only group of traitors the rest of the British population should be worried about.

    47. Douglas Clark — on 11th November, 2006 at 5:41 pm  

      PedanticLurker,

      I actually understood that the 68% figure was for pre Roman. Thanks for reminding me for what I thought.

      You say:

      If 68% of white English ancestry is pre-Roman Celtic, it’s reasonable to assume that the bulk of the rest of their ancestry comes from other white sources (Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Norman, etc etc etc), although I would have to purchase one of the books in question to see if they break the answer down more than that.

      I say: what racist book would you buy? What perverted nonsense would you believe, and deny evidence to the contrary?, Just because it was a book? Published by racists, paid for by racists?

      Happy days.

      You have not answered my point.

      You are a wrong un.

    48. ollie — on 11th November, 2006 at 5:43 pm  

      Well Jai, no ALL of you.Who was/is the most evil Hitler/Stalin or Islam?

    49. Jai — on 11th November, 2006 at 6:02 pm  

      =>”Who was/is the most evil Hitler/Stalin or Islam?”

      Hitler and Stalin.

      With regards to Islam, it depends on which interpretation of the faith one is referring to and the specific individual.

      For example:

      The late qawaali singer Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan: Good.
      Emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar, who had a significant Sufi-inspired view of his faith: Good.
      The Sufi saint Baba Bulleh Shah: Good.
      The Sufi saint Baba Farid: Good.
      The Sufi saint Mian Mir: Good.
      Emperor Aurangzeb’s son Dara Shikoh: Good.
      Arif, frequent commenter on PP: Good.
      The large numbers of Muslims who sided with Guru Gobind Singh during his struggles against the (fanatically orthodox Muslim) Mughal authorities: Good.
      The Muslim nobleman who protested against Guru Gobind Singh’s pre-pubescent sons being killed for refusing to convert to Islam: Good.

      Emperor Aurangzeb: Corrupt (except for the very end of his life).
      Osama bin Laden: Corrupt.
      Al-Qaeda in general: Corrupt.
      Anjem Choudary and his fellow members of Al-Muhajiroun/Al-Gharabaa: Corrupt.
      etcetera, etcetera.

      Many major religions — including Christianity — have interpretations and scriptural verses which are questionable. The Old Testament itself contains numerous writings which contradict the explicit humanitarianism and compassion of Jesus’ teachings in the later New Testament, and there are quite a few historical precedents for Christians obviously acting violently based on the former despite the teachings of the latter. But one would not say that Christianity itself is inherently evil.

      The same applies to Islam. It depends on which version of Islam one is talking about.

      And bear in mind that I am not a Muslim myself either.

    50. Don — on 11th November, 2006 at 6:03 pm  

      Douglas,

      Wasn’t that a shade harsh? Maybe I missed something, but Lurker’s post didn’t seem that contentious.

      Ollie,

      ALL of whom? How would you define a traitor? I’d definitely agree that a terrorist supporting jihadist comes under that category, but you are going to have to be a little more precise. Is skin colour treason per se?

      Is it really only militant islam you have a problem with? Or do you just not like darkies?

      If the former, you could find following some threads here educational. If the latter, education is probably not your thing.

    51. Vikrant — on 11th November, 2006 at 6:07 pm  

      BNP Scapegoat Picker:

      http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Image:Bnp_wheel.gif

      bloody hilarious

    52. Vikrant — on 11th November, 2006 at 6:09 pm  

      Emperor Aurangzeb: Corrupt (except for the very end of his life).

      Jai,

      Aurangzeb wasnt just corrupt… devil-incarnate more like.

    53. Jai — on 11th November, 2006 at 6:13 pm  

      Don,

      That’s my basic point. Anyone — such as people in the BNP and their supporters — who has sympathies with Hitler and his Nazi ideology is as much a traitor as actual-or-armchair jihadis with sympathies towards Al-Qaeda.

      The latter is an avowed enemy of Britain just like Nazi Germany was. The latter is engaged in armed warfare against Britain just like Nazi Germany was.

      So now there are two groups of traitors within the borders of the United Kingdom, as I said before: One group who idolises a historical enemy and believes in his ideas, and another group who idolises a modern-day enemy and believes in his ideas.

    54. William — on 11th November, 2006 at 6:23 pm  

      I can give a bit of creedence when someone say Hindu Sikh would prefer there kids not to marry someone as it could dilute their culture etc. Culture is important to ones identity. However it still should be down to the choice of their sons and daughters. To me there is a difference between cultural preference. The term racist originally meant biologically inferior. A couple of things bug me a bit though. One is of course if a white person showed preference some people might regard that as racist. Also when someone uses the cultural preference as a cover for something else. I have a white freind with a female Sikh partner. Some of the family (men mostly)have obected to the relationship on grounds that really just seemed prejudiced against this Gora man.

    55. PedanticLurker — on 11th November, 2006 at 6:30 pm  

      Douglas Clark,

      I say: what racist book would you buy? What perverted nonsense would you believe, and deny evidence to the contrary?, Just because it was a book? Published by racists, paid for by racists?

      Eh? Where did this hysteria come from?

      I was talking about the three books reviewed in the FT piece I linked to in post no. 28, and possibly buying one of the three in question.

      You have not answered my point.

      Jai’s original comment was this:

      Quite ironic considering how many English people aren’t actually genetically “pure white” anyway. Even Carol Thatcher turned out to be 25% Middle-Eastern. And remember that young guy I mentioned will be profiled on the programme on Channel 4 on Monday who turned out to be 20% Asian. All of these people had regarded themselves as being “100% Anglo-Saxon”.

      Now, I apologize to Jai if I misinterpreted his meaning, but I see this statement (in response to Anon+1′s first comment) as saying that Carol Thatcher and the young guy in question have typical backgrounds in terms of having a high proportion of recent non-European ancestry. Since this isn’t true, and since I am a self-admitted pedant, I figured I’d point this out in my first comment (comment no. 28).

      In the context of Anon+1′s first comment, I read Jai’s comment, and again I apologize if I misinterpreted him, as saying “well, you could be 25% Middle-Eastern, like Carol Thatcher!” Well, he could be, but he probably isn’t, for reasons that I have explained.

      As for not answering your point, here’s what you said in post no. 37:

      68% is certainly a majority, but it is hardly a killer punch to Jai’s thesis, is it? If Carol Thatcher was 25% Middle Eastern, then those that are 32% ‘other’ might be even more surprised, pleasantly or otherwise.

      Well, reasonable people can disagree but personally, for reasons that I have laid out in my two posts, I don’t agree with Jai’s point (or yours, for that matter).

      I’m not sure how I was supposed to ‘answer your point’ in any other way than the way I did, which was to point out that the white population of Britain is pretty homogeneous genetically, and that on average members of said group have a low proportion of recent non-European ancestry, but that this is changing and will change further.

      You are a wrong un.

      Chill out.

    56. Clairwil — on 11th November, 2006 at 6:41 pm  

      I wonder if part of the problem is the belief that some though by no means all in the anti racist movement hold that minorities are victims who need protection. I don’t know TL ever thought that way but it would be easy to see how someone that did could become very disillusioned when confronted with violent crime committed by various ethnic groups.

    57. Don — on 11th November, 2006 at 6:45 pm  

      Jai,

      Quite. Nobody ever voted BNP because they felt their fiscal policy was the right one for Britain in the 21st century, or because their transport policy combined efficiency and envirionmental responsibility. They voted for Hitler worshippers and paki-bashers. That school of thought had their cards marked in Cable Street.

      William,

      ‘Culture is important to ones identity. However it still should be down to the choice of their sons and daughters. ‘ I agree.

    58. El Cid — on 11th November, 2006 at 6:47 pm  

      Hmmm. TL’s evolution is a sad indictment of the current state we’re in. Remember to fight your corner without jokes about black kids with axes in their heads, and people might reason with you more.
      Wood Green? You mean William Forster or St Thomas More?

      Anyway, I would like to reserve my invective for Anon+1:

      How on earth can you call someone a racist for wanting their heritage preserved, thats a pathetic comment to make. Just because your bloodline isnt worth preserving doesnt mean other peoples arnt.
      I wouldnt want any future children of mine diluting the race by marrying anyone non-white and I will make this very clear to them when the times comes.

      What a bigoted idiot you are. Preserving your blood line? Fucking racist fool. On the one hand, if you are from the West Indies your DNA is very very likely already part-European. And if you are African African, then genetics show that there are more biological differences between black Africans than there are between black Africans and whites. Preserving your blood line? Who do you think you are, the black Himmler or something?

      Tell me — hypothetically but not exactly beyond thye realms of reality — would you rather a black babyfather for your daughter, who failed to stay around to help a boy become a man and read to him and stuff, or a white man who would? If your answer is the former, you deserve everything that is coming your way.

    59. El Cid — on 11th November, 2006 at 6:55 pm  

      One another thing Anon:
      When it comes to the World Cup, don’t claim Brazil as your own. The Brazilian are far too mixed and impure for you.

    60. Katy — on 11th November, 2006 at 7:06 pm  

      I have been assuming that Anon was white, not that it makes a difference.

    61. Not Saussure — on 11th November, 2006 at 7:12 pm  

      it could dilute their culture etc. Culture is important to ones identity

      I have problems with this, because I don’t quite understand how the term ‘culture’ is being used here. How can a culture be diluted, unless, perhaps, it’s the culture of a very small, traditional community that isolates itself (e.g. the American Amish or that ultra-orthodox Jewish group up at Stanford Hill)?

      But if by ‘culture’ you mean the culture which formed you (which is what ‘Culture is important to one’s identity’ suggests), then how does that get diluted? It’s internal to you; you’d still be you, even if you emigrated to China.

      Furthermore, if by culture you mean the way in which people lead their lives, there have been massively more important and far-reaching changes over the last 30 or 40 years than any caused by immigration. The wide availability of contraception and abortion, the changes in work and leisure caused by the the widespread use of computers and the internet, the increase in car ownership …. have any of these ‘diluted’ our culture? They’ve certainly changed it no end.

    62. El Cid — on 11th November, 2006 at 7:21 pm  

      Ha, so she is (*blush*)
      Frigging trigger-happy speedreading again.
      Well in that case, everything I’ve said still applies — only in reverse. I mean, what does she mean by white? That ghostly ginger celtic look, or maybe a nordic blonde and blue eyed? How far south will she cast her net? Spanish for example? I mean recent studies show the celts are descended from them? But then the Spanish are part Arab, and you know how brown and hairy they can get — I mean in some cases they are positively black?

      And hypothetocally — but not beyound the realms of reality — would she rather than some ali g-wannabe sink estate fake burberry-wearing white chavster marrying her daughter and beating her up every couple of saturdays after a few stellas or an African NHS consultant? QED

    63. El Cid — on 11th November, 2006 at 7:22 pm  

      i’ll get me coat

    64. Clairwil — on 11th November, 2006 at 7:31 pm  

      Not Saussure

      I’ve always been puzzled by the idea that immigrants can destroy ones culture. A couple of years back I was the only Scottish person living in my close. I can’t say the presence of immigrants had any influence on how I thought of myself or behaved at all. Similarly when I’ve gone out with people from different ethnic backgrounds to me, I’ve remained Scottish. I don’t think I come from a particularly strong culture but I don’t have any real worries about it suddenly being overwhelmed.

    65. Don — on 11th November, 2006 at 7:47 pm  

      El Cid,

      Is he a she?

    66. raz — on 11th November, 2006 at 8:09 pm  

      jai,

      Is raz not “good” :(

    67. Yakoub/Julaybib — on 11th November, 2006 at 8:34 pm  

      I am white, aged 43. I lived in South London in the mid- 1980s, and most folks where I lived were Afro-Carribean and South Asian. The local A-C pub was strictly A-C only - a couple of trippers from Amsterdam had blithely broken the taboo shortly before I moved there and one was stabbed before he could order a pint.

      Street crime rates were as high as employment opportunities for local A-C people were low. White folks seem to hang with white folks. I never heard any racism but everyone I met had been mugged by someone A-C, many more than once.

      Then I moved to a Northern town with a small A-C population. For a couple of years, I was nervous if I found myself on a quiet street and a young male A-C appeared. It slowly wore off, and died completely after I converted to Islam and found myself at Mosque with A-C converts. It was always MY problem, though. My fear. It was irrational and, to be honest, an embarrassment.

      Wasalaam

      TMA

    68. Anon+1 — on 11th November, 2006 at 9:59 pm  

      Tbh im not the greatest fan of football, the money involved in it is too high to be justified. If i was recieving that amount of money per week most of it would be given away to those who actually need it, rather than buy myself yet ANOTHER sports car etc.
      Also the amount of trash that was produced in the last world cup was pathetic, England bottle openers, Flags, blah blah What a waste of resources, resources that could of been put to better use to benifit the species, rather than add to the worrying amount of garbage we have to find ways of dealing with every year.

    69. Douglas Clark — on 11th November, 2006 at 11:43 pm  

      Pendantic Lurker,

      I answered you before I saw your last post. I’d like to see an equivalent study of the people who live here right now. Y’know, young folk. I doubt very very much that your statistics are in any way right, if you apply it to the here and now. Contrary to your belief, I think that sex, or lurve if you will, outweighs any other idea. Thank f**k.

    70. ZinZin — on 12th November, 2006 at 1:10 am  

      I listened to the radio debate and the opinion was expresed(i forget by who) that the race relations act was considered by ethnic minorities to be for their benefit only.

      On the guardian cif pages this is what Laura Smith wrote in an article on the verdicts in the Rahman and Griffin/Collet trials on charges of inciting racial hatred.

      “The irony of two such diametrically opposed verdicts in the same week was not lost on anti-racism campaigners who have long argued that laws brought in to protect ethnic minorities are disproportionately used against them.”

      It appears that some hold this view which is bizarre as in the eyes of the law we are all equal. Smith is demanding that some should be more equal than others. The race relations act was drafted for the benefit of all and is not a stick to beat whites.

      Frankly i am amazed that anyone holds such views. Does anyone believe in equality anymore?

      Sunny ever been a victim of racially aggravated car theft?

    71. Jai — on 12th November, 2006 at 11:23 am  

      Pedantic Lurker,

      =>”In the context of Anon+1’s first comment, I read Jai’s comment, and again I apologize if I misinterpreted him, as saying “well, you could be 25% Middle-Eastern, like Carol Thatcher!””

      I’m afraid that’s exactly what I meant ;)

      The only way to find the definitive answer would be to perform the relevant genetic analysis test on most/all of the “white” British population (or at least a sizeable sample of “indigenous” Brits). That should give the proper answer once and for all, based on hard science and inalienable facts.

      Otherwise we’re all just making assumptions here and basing our views mostly on speculation.

    72. Jai — on 12th November, 2006 at 11:26 am  

      Raz,

      =>”Is raz not “good” ”

      I was just giving examples of people who were/are “strict” Muslims and very devout in their faith. It was to refute the assertion that a pious believer in Islam is automatically “evil” in terms of their subsequent behaviour and basic human nature.

    73. Jai — on 12th November, 2006 at 11:30 am  

      Regarding the comments on this thread about “culture being diluted” and so on:

      As Asians on PP or non-Asians here who have had a significant amount of interaction with Asians will know, the whole matter of “preserving culture” is quite a massive issue within the Asian community, particularly amongst the older generation (it’s a significant reason behind the various intergenerational “culture clash” problems which occur with the UK-born 2nd-Generation).

      I think the best response at this point would be to quote an American blogger named Manish Vij, who some of you may be familiar with from his stint on Sepia Mutiny:

      “Do you exist to serve your culture, or does your culture exist to serve you ?”

      Think about it. It doesn’t just apply to Asians.

    74. raz — on 12th November, 2006 at 2:08 pm  

      jai,

      i was just messing :)

    75. funkg — on 12th November, 2006 at 2:36 pm  

      I have read tottenhams lads post with a great deal of sadness, as I have an understanding where he is coming from in his retrogressive epiphany into right wing politics. Growing up in the 1970s it was common to be casually racially abused on the street, but did I grow up hating all whites, hell no! I was once called a nig nog, coon chocolate drop by not only a child my age, but his dad, granddad and the rest of the family on a CB radio march in Limehouse, but do I hate whites, no I don’t. you see 1979-2006 is a very long period of time, and I have evolved, I have traveled met lots of very nice people and have married. Yes there are some criminal afro-carribeans, but then there are asian and of course whites. I work in the criminal justice system, so I know that crime has no colour boundaries, so lets all grow up. Im sad that tottenhams lads family experienced this level of crime, what could I have done? Am I responsible, of course not but that does not mean I cannot try to at least put something back into society to help

    76. funkg — on 12th November, 2006 at 3:45 pm  

      I was watching the remembrance day commemoration this morning, and I cried I genuinely cried. Remembrance day is a solemn occasion it its hard to imagine that young men of 17/18/19 veterans from the first world war, most of whom were virtually malnourished made the ultimate sacrifice in war. I look at my nephew who is 16 and I think to myself, you are probably twice the size of these teenage solders who went to war. The tears started flowing when representative ambassadors from the commonwealth lined up to lay their wreaths at the cenotaph. Nations such as India, Ghana and my parents country of st lucia laid their wreaths for what was then the mother country Great Britain. My own grandfather, and other members of my family fought in the first and second world war, I had a cousin who was based in split during the war in Bosnia, my niece is currently serving in the British army and a friend from school died in northern Ireland shot by the IRA. What do all these people have in common? They all hailed from the Caribbean, British, Patriotic and not ashamed of their heritage. Time and again whilst growing up in Britain, black people and asian will be trated as the ‘other’ because we are a visible minority. My father came to Britain in 1952, that’s a few years after the war, yet im still looked at as a foreigner by some. I can understand why some blacks and asian think fuck it, I will just revert to my roots and forget about Englishness. My school was catholic with kids whose great-grandparents hailed from Poland, lituania and Ukraine as they worked on the docks, yet these kids saw theirselves as white English that will never happen with blacks and Asians.

      Britain ruled over almost ¼ of the planet at one time, yet many of the working class our parents and grandparents lived amongst were less educated and thought that we all lived in the jungle. My father was once a door to door salesman, working alongside Sikh men in the 1960s, he told me that the majority of the white working class householders were illiterate and had to sign the forms with a thumbprint. all of the Sikhs and Africans/Caribbean’s were highly literate and knew more about the English parliamentary systems, English history and English literature than the working class whites. Now I am not having a pop at the working classes, as many had to endure the old secondary modern system of education, which made them fit for working in factories. My point is that there has always been a wealth of differences between the white working classes, the middle and of course the uppers. To be fair to the WWC they have had to bear the ‘brunt’ of poor schooling, crime and yes waves of immigration that the middle and upper have avoided. I hate it how white middle class opinion makers disregard what the WWC have to say, and reject their criticism as ‘racist’ especially around housing.

      In response to tottenhams lads comments, how can I as a middleclass black man be responsible for crime amongst black criminals? What do I have in common with a snotty nosed kid, who eats crap chick burger and chips all day, drinks ribena listens to ‘grime’ smokes skunk, then decides to rob someone? But this kid could be a white lad from Newcastle, black form tottenham or Bengali lad from manor park.
      When I see white pensioners in east London now, I feel sorry for them, I think why can’t their kids support them to move out of this environment? Most of their kids live in essex and the rest of the countryside, why not move them in? why? Because the kids are often selfish and would much rather stick their elderly in an old peoples home.

    77. Jagdeep — on 12th November, 2006 at 3:54 pm  

      funkg

      You need to write these stories down, at least record them somewhere, about your father’s struggles back in the 1950′s and 1970′s, what it was like, so your children and their children will know. In our family, we are doing video interviews with my grandparents and parents, uncles and aunts, getting them to talk about their lives when they came to England in the 1960′s, where they worked, what it was like, all those memories, so at least our kids and their kids will have a sense of where they came from — not India but England, where their new community came from and started.

    78. Jagdeep — on 12th November, 2006 at 3:55 pm  

      1950′s and 1960′s I meant….

    79. funkg — on 12th November, 2006 at 4:15 pm  

      Words of wisdom again Jagdeep,

      I will certainly think about doing a video diary, I am collecting archives about my father and grandfather both of were academics. In this time of ‘conflict’ we have to make alliances with those who share common values, good schools for our kids tackling crime, sorting out this perceived terrorism threat etc. I value my carribean heritage, and I know it sounds unfashionable but I value my British heritage and im patriotic towards Great Britain too but that does not make me a sell out. I have worked since the age of 15 and im now 37 that’s 22 years of working full time and part time paying taxes, but not just paying taxes but genuinely playing a part in my community and trying to make a difference in my own small way. Fuck people like tottenham lad, why should we apologies? Can all muslims be responsible for 9/11, no. can all Germans be responsible for the holocaust no? can all black residents in tottenham be responsible for muggings, no!

      Finally for now all this stuff about diluting the ‘race’ rubbish! What happened to the garrison of African soldiers who were stationed in Scotland during Roman times? Or the black people who lived in London during Victorian times? There were assimilated and went into the gene pool. There is only one race and that’s human, what right does anyone have to make statements that I cant be we anyone from my own ethnic group? Is it any of my business who falls in love with whom? People who think this way probably spend more time in their rooms masturbating, rather than spend time finding a loving partner. It just boils down to simple jealously nothing more.

      Im just about to have my Sunday dinner now, and its an ENGLISH Sunday roast, its ENGLISH with a twist because its spiced up in the carribean way, just like I heard of Asians spicing up their turkey at Christmas with a tandoori paste. Why? Because we adapt to things this way.

    80. Jagdeep — on 12th November, 2006 at 4:31 pm  

      Well said funkg. Collective guilt is the most annoying and dangerous thing. That is the most dangerous form because if you blame people collectively you can punish them collectively too.

      Athough personally I can’t stand it when people put masala on the roast dinner. Blegh.

    81. Don — on 12th November, 2006 at 4:48 pm  

      ‘What happened to the garrison of African soldiers who were stationed in Scotland during Roman times?’

      The garrison on Hadrian’s Wall was 9,000 strong and made up of non-citizens, largely from N. Africa and the Middle East. They are generally assumed to have married into the local population. Given their status, I’d guess they were considered damn good catches and, in the relatively sparse population of the time, must have made quite an impact on the border gene pool. I was suprised that the books mentioned earlier suggested that romanisation had relatively little effect on genetic make up. Looking forward to the ’100% British?’ programme.

    82. William — on 12th November, 2006 at 6:09 pm  

      It is true that many things have been changing over time in regard to race hopefully for the better. However I have had my eyes opened over the last few years. In the early eighties I was taught that it was only white people who are racist. In the last few years I have encountered a number of situations.

      On a recent MA course about a third of the students were Chinese. Many of them had never been out of places like Bejing. They had never seen a mixed place like Wolverhampton. I heard talk such as all Indians, look the same so do all white people and black people look like their respective races. Also some of them were scared to live in student housing in areas where there are black people. Fear of crime muggings etc.

      A Korean freind explained that many Koreans would not approve of their sons marrying a white, Indian, black person in that order.

      While researching Indian cinema I came accross websites such as Sulheka. Here there was chat were. Muslims were called Pakis. Arabs were called sand Niggers. South Indians were called niggers. This was mostly from Hindus. Only a few I might add and they were quickly pulled up by the other members.

      There is a sizable African student population in Mumbai University (or is it Delhi). There has been a history of complaints of racism towards African students from indigenous students. At the time of reading about this it seemed that non of the complaints had been investigated.

      One of the strange ironies I have experienced and discovered through working in in my home town is complaints from ethnic minorites about asylum seekers immigrants etc. Such stuff as ‘I am waiting for housing and was born here but they will get housed before I do as they can jump the queue’

      In some ways things are more open. In my home town there are many inter racial relationships of all kinds and not many people seem to take much notice. This is not just young people either.

      Regarding some of the crude and vulgar racial stereotypes some of them are just recycled. For example the notion that certain male members of races having big penises was once applied to the Scots by the English. This was to explain why they were wild etc!!

      I was born in Scotland and sectarianism can still be a problem there. One of my Uncles was sent to approved school for wrecking the house of a Catholic school teacher. He boasted that they even shit on his bed. That was a few decades ago and I am sure he is not like that now.

    83. William — on 12th November, 2006 at 6:50 pm  

      Ona a lighter note. I have a freind who’s Indian (Sikh). He once said he is not so keen on Indians in the UK. In fact he says he can’t be done with them, they are inward looking etc. They remind him of the English in Spain. He likes Indians in India however. He has recently moved there. He was born in the UK.

    84. PedanticLurker — on 12th November, 2006 at 7:03 pm  

      Jai,

      The only way to find the definitive answer would be to perform the relevant genetic analysis test on most/all of the “white” British population (or at least a sizeable sample of “indigenous” Brits). That should give the proper answer once and for all, based on hard science and inalienable facts.

      I was under the impression that that is precisely what has been done for the books reviewed in the piece I linked to in my first comment.

    85. Moving Target — on 12th November, 2006 at 7:33 pm  

      A response to Funkg

      First off, as a white Englishman, and certainly from your post in relation to Rememberance Sunday, it is a pleasure sharing this island with you.

      Please don’t take offence mate, but I think you’re a bit guilty of self mythologising and what comes over to me a small amount of prejudice. It may well be my touchy nature however - as your posts reveal a man with a fine heart.

      The thought that the majority of white working class households were illiterate in the 60′s is not correct. This was my parents generation, and I can safely say thay they, nor indeed anyone I know of this age is illiterate. The people whom your father met may not have had the benefit of the post war educational reform, but the compulsory elementary school system would have taught them how to read and write.

      The latter half of 20th Century saw many working class heroes, those whom started with little and reached the top. These weren’t all footballers and boxers, but playwrites, musicians, scientists, politicians and businessmen. As is often said, they used to be the salt of the earth.

      The battles on the street you talk about, interest me. The remaining white people in neighbourhoods with large communities from overseas are constant targets of racism. I can tell you from personal experience that this usually takes the form of lads shouting abuse out of cars at you, to confrontations with youths who’ll barge into you on the pavement. A polite request - “sorry lads, you couldn’t turn it down?” to a group of youths playing music on their mobile phones met with racial abuse.

      I’m sure that this is the same small minded crap that some of your parents and grandparents were faced with. When it did happen you had to fight back, sometimes literally so. That is why it is completely wrong to simply tell Tottenham Lad to f*ck off. I know quite a few men like him. He is not generalising as to say “all blacks are the same.” He tells it like he has experienced it, in places like Tottenham, Whitechapel, etc. the victims of racism are more often than not white people. Young vulnerable girls are targetted in Yorkshire by abusers as a result of their colour. What would people of other communities do? Well, I know, going to school in multi-cultural West London it was always an issue with Sikh and Hindu schoolmates in that they said Muslim kids were after their sisters and friends, promising them the earth, eternal love and inevitable conversion to Islam.

      People whom are white, black, brown, yellow are pre-determined toward being tribal and some disposed to acting on their prejudices. There is probably truth in what you say in that there is often difficulty in seeing past the colour of a person’s skin. This sort of division is hardly special to the UK and exists where-ever ‘different’ people co-exist.

      People of my parents generation DO remember when they knew all your neighbours, and most likely their kids went to school together. Saw each other down the pub - ladies in the Saloon Bar, gents in the Public Bar. People by and large had the same customs and traditions. There were countless little ways of life that tied them together. Society wasn’t perfect, but life was better than it is now. Who’s to say they’re wrong? This was the post war consensus period, things were different.

      It’s a strange experience to visit your neighbourhood, which is now almost entirely populated by people from other ethnic communites. It is a sad experience, not because the newer arrivals aren’t as good. But that a life that you thought would go on forever and formed you has stopped and the change happened so fast that it was almost as if it never existed.

    86. William — on 12th November, 2006 at 8:07 pm  

      As is often said, they used to be the salt of the earth.

      I was/am white working class and went to a secondary modern. While I agree that it wasn’t true that most of the white working class were not illiterate I am not so sure about applying the above statement accross the board. The culture I came from was often a rough world to live in and I was glad to get away from it. This is not to say that all working class are bad etc but there was ignorance, violence etc.

    87. El Cid — on 12th November, 2006 at 8:42 pm  

      Funkg,
      I must say that I found the ref to thumbprint stamps a bit iffy. I’m not saying your dad didn’t encounter some illiteracy or that many immigrants in the 1950s may have had more educated backgrounds than the natives they met, but I do think you’re exaggerating. It detracts from your otherwise spot-on reasoning. If global adult illiteracy has fallen from 44% in the 1950s to around 15% now, it’s because of the spread of schooling in countries other than the UK, many of them major sources of migrants to the UK.

      That aside, the rest — 99 % — of what you said resonated deeply. If you were standing for election, I would certainly vote for you.

      Moreover, the UK seems to be slipping when it comes to literacy going by this story 6 years ago:
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/811832.stm

    88. El Cid — on 12th November, 2006 at 8:44 pm  

      P.S.
      Funny enough, I’ve just had roast chicken, roast potatoes, carrots, peas, gravy, sage and onion stuffing, english mustard — but with roasted red peppers and a glass of vino on the side. Long live fusion!

    89. Douglas Clark — on 12th November, 2006 at 8:57 pm  

      Pedantic Lurker,

      Post 55.

      Apologies. I was trying to get rid of a cold by drinking copious amounts of alcohol. I should not have posted that. ’cause it clearly doesn’t meet any standard of debate, whatsoever.

      You are quite right, I should chill.

    90. Chairwoman — on 12th November, 2006 at 9:02 pm  

      Funkg - I like so much of what you say, and like William, I am proud to share this island with you. But I was at school in the sixties, and nobody was illiterate, and I have never met anybody of my age who was educated here that was illiterate, and certainly not of my mother’s generation. She, by the way, went to school in Cable Street and left not only able to read and write, but also could do algebra and speak fluent German. I think the educational standard was better than your father believed. Maybe they thought they were being clever by not signing.

    91. Clairwil — on 12th November, 2006 at 10:43 pm  

      I think the levels of illiteracy quoted amongst the WWC are somewhat high. However it’s possible that rate were pretty high in the particular area funkg’s dad covered. It may also be the case that funkg senior noticed more illiterate whites than other ethnic groups as a result of his own expectations.

      Chairwoman
      ‘But I was at school in the sixties, and nobody was illiterate, and I have never met anybody of my age who was educated here that was illiterate, and certainly not of my mother’s generation’

      The frightening thing is I can think of five illiterate people (all white) roughly my age (31) and younger. We must be failing our young people somewhere. More so when one takes into account awareness of dyslexia, AHD etc.

    92. Sajn — on 12th November, 2006 at 10:59 pm  

      I’m afraid that I have encountered too many (mostly white) young people who have left school barely able to read or write. Seems like illiteracy is increasing rather than decreasing.

    93. Katy — on 12th November, 2006 at 11:27 pm  

      In my work I encounter a lot of people who can’t read or write (as opposed to not understanding English but being literate in their own tongue). It has to be said that they have overwhelmingly tended to be white, but they are not what I would call WWC. They are usually from itinerant/travelling communities where there is little or no formal schooling. Most of the people I am talking about can just about sign their first names, but some of them were unable to do even that.

      Generally speaking people who are schooled are literate to some degree - sometimes a pretty limited degree - even if they are not particularly academic or have learning difficulties. That applies across class and race lines, I think.

      And I really don’t think we are talking about the WWC here; the working class of the last generation and before were all literate and numerate to an extent which frankly would leave most GCSE students of today standing; today’s WWC are, like everyone who goes to school, as literate as today’s pisspoor educational standards permit. What we are talking about is what Marx would have called the lumpen proletariat (which has uncomfortable Third Reich undertones, if you ask me).

    94. Moving Target — on 13th November, 2006 at 12:00 am  

      Katy @ #93

      Good point. The ‘Lumpen Proletariat’ definition is none too bad - it being the ‘refuse’ of ALL classes. You could probably revamp it - dodgy career criminals, drug dealers etc.

      Agree also in relation to Travellers.

    95. Not Saussure — on 13th November, 2006 at 12:19 am  

      I’d be surprised if anything like the majority of white working-class householders that Funkgc Senior encountered in the 1960s couldn’t sign their name, though I wouldn’t — depending on how old they were — be surprised if a lot of them had difficulty doing much more than that.

      Apparently one of the many reasons for the 1944 Education Act was that the authorities were shocked by how many conscripts had great difficulty doing much more than signing their names and reading a few simple words. I’ll see if I can find the figures — I know someone who should know where they were reported.

    96. bikhair aka taqiyyah — on 13th November, 2006 at 12:48 am  

      Nick,

      Brothas have some nerve hatin on your dating a black girl when so many of them be running up white girls. I am black women and east Asian men, atleast in America are the least interracially dated people. So when you see these black and white half caste running around its a white mother and black father. Dont get me started.

    97. Nick — on 13th November, 2006 at 8:10 am  

      Funkg - My father was once a door to door salesman, working alongside Sikh men in the 1960s, he told me that the majority of the white working class householders were illiterate and had to sign the forms with a thumbprint.

      Didn’t I mention earlier in this thread how racism was endemic among all sectors of the community? Coming from a WWC family myself - from Tottenham no less - I’ve got to say that’s utter racist bollocks. Just imagine I had said the same about my dad’s experience in the 60s…

      The implies of course that the WWC have only got themselves to blame for any perceived disadvantages - or they are genetically retarded. Take your pick. And for fun, switch ethnicity.

    98. funkg — on 13th November, 2006 at 9:39 am  

      Good morning all,

      I thought I would just pick up on my postings I submitted, to say that I apologise for saying that the majority of WWC people were illiterate, they were not but a lot were.
      In a lot of postings good manners are often overlooked, and offence taken where none was meant. Political ‘correctism’ is often mocked, but I think PCness can be often translated as displaying good manners and courtesy to your neighbours without giving to much offence.

      No I certainly don’t think the WWC have theirselves to blame, the WWC have always been shat on by the ruling classes, whether they were sent off to fight the wars, enduring the secondary modern system of education or to work in the factories in times past. If was the British educational system which failed generations of young people, and still does. Like I mentioned in this ‘new’ economy we can’t have WWC or any other ethnic groups frightened to use computers, not develop good communication skills or not willing to transfer their existing skills into other careers.

      The point I was trying to make earlier was that many immigrants to the UK back in the 50s and 60s had a halcyon view of the Mother country, and were shocked at the level of illiteracy and poor education as many were schooled in a post British imperialist and Victorian level of education. I am glad I started a debate on this subject, and that people have come to the defence of the WWC. I am certainly NOT a racist, I don’t wish to brag, but how many people on this site can honestly say they have done enough to help those marginalised WWC in their communities? Not many like I have said I ACTIVLEY work with this ‘group’ 5 days a week trying to build their self esteem, encouraging them to gain drivers licences, construction training and eventual careers in the emerging Thames Gateway. Illiteracy is no laughing matter for me, and there is no reason for me to mock the WWC nor for my father.
      Many WWC people I meet are quite open with their prejudices, but somehow they feel comfortable with me because of my cockney accent, and ‘real’ local roots. With these people I meet, I say to them you have to adapt to the changing circumstance and empower yourselves and your families to move on.

      Finally can I just say and this is different matter no one I know from ethnic communities wishes to change the English culture. All this rubbish that’s been mentioned in the press about not celebrating bonfire night in Tower hamlets in favour of a Bengali festival, I have not heard one Bengali person in favour of this. Lets be proud to celebrate our histories, lets not be scared to call Christmas, Christmas, not seasons greeting or ‘winterval’. Let Hindus celebrate Diwali, or Muslims celebrate Eid lets not forget that we still live in a nominally Christian country. Just because our state religion is Christian, and that of Pakistan is Muslim, that does not mean we have to trample on other faiths.

    99. Chairwoman — on 13th November, 2006 at 9:46 am  

      Clairwil - My ward has ADD, Asperger’s Syndrome, and frequently has the reactions of a 12 year old (he’s in his mid 20s), but he reads and writes, and is an authority on Nike trainers and Stone Island jackets :-)

    100. funkg — on 13th November, 2006 at 9:59 am  

      So when you see these black and white half caste running around its a white mother and black father. Dont get me started.

      To bikhair aka taqiyyah that really does sound utterly offensive, vile and spiteful.

      Its about peoples CHOICES if you really do believe in God, God gave us a choice to marry and date whoever we like whether you Muslim, Christian or any other faith. The most important thing for us is doing what id right in Gods eyes. I don’t think that the creator really cares that much if we decide to marry out of our colour boundaries, as long as those families share the same values to build communities and to advance civilisation and at the same time worshipping him.
      When professed Muslims or Christians profess a faith, and talk about dating ones own, I really feel that they are often superseding their own inadequacies in finding relationships above Gods will. When you talk of ‘half caste’ who is to say that Bob Marley, Malcom X, Barack Obama, Tiger Woods or the myriad of other mixed race people normally seen as black are anything less? Im sorry to say that people who make statements such as your own, are actually hindering their chances of relationships, mot aiding it. How many men actually wants to be with someone with opinions like that? We want our women to be open minded, cheerful cosmopolitan and open to new ideas, not prejudice, come on! But I will apologise now to you if I have caused offence, because im that type of person.

      I was in Morocco this year and many of the people there are of mixed ‘blood’ so are lots and others from the Islamic worlds, and in Christian Spain and Italy. Do you think those black men who cuss out black women who date white men, the ones who have mixed race kids? Of course not that’s utter crap to think that.

    101. Kismet Hardy — on 13th November, 2006 at 10:40 am  

      bikhair, on the assumption that you’d feel better about yourself if you rid yourself of a prejudice, the term ‘half caste’ is really rather offensive. Mixed race, please.

    102. Jagdeep — on 13th November, 2006 at 11:51 am  

      Was Bob Marley mixed race!?

    103. funkg — on 13th November, 2006 at 12:01 pm  

      Yes Bob Marleys father was a white Jamaican named Norval Sinclair Marley, he was a Marine Officer whose family hailed from Sussex and married the then 18 year old Cedella Booker. Check it out on Wikipedia and other sites. Many ‘blacks’ we celebrate as such are really mixed race, but the list is too numerous to mention.

    104. Jagdeep — on 13th November, 2006 at 12:07 pm  

      Amazing. My brother has a book at home of photography by Dennis Morris of Bob Marley when he first came to England, before he was famous, buying a football in a sports shop in Leeds, hanging out in Birmingham, that kind of thing. Beautiful photos. Dennis Morris also published a book of the photographs he took in Southall in the 1970′s, primarily of the Sikhs there. Also beautiful if you want to know the roots of Punjabis in this country. Man, they wore some funky denim flares in Southall in the 1970s.

    105. Kismet Hardy — on 13th November, 2006 at 12:07 pm  

      There are many mixed race American artists (such as beyonce, mariah carey blah blah) who get blasted unless they refer to themselves as black. Black Americans are every bit as racist as their whiter counterparts

    106. funkg — on 13th November, 2006 at 12:17 pm  

      Its not that African Americans are racist towards Mixed race people, its just because historically mixed race people were more favoured in employment, dating and advertising. Lots of black men may have at one time desired lighter skin women, but this not just some black men, this happens of course in south east asia, middle east, far east the world over. Some African Americans see this selectivly, and think the world revolves around them.

    107. Chairwoman — on 13th November, 2006 at 1:48 pm  

      Come on chaps, get a grip. People find attractive what they find attractive. Some people like people who are a similar physical type because they are familiar, and therefore ‘safe’. Others like different physical types because they are different and therefore ‘exciting’.

      I married a man from a different ethnic group, though not a different ‘colour’, from a different city. The biggest difference was the north/south divide. I had much more in common with black Londoners, than with Scouse Jews, and certainly than with a Scouse Catholic. But, guess what? We became used to each others strangeness, and formed a little community of our own.

      We called it a family.

      BTW funkg, you are so right. I have done absolutely nothing concrete to help the WWC.

      Shame on me. All credit to you.

    108. The Informer — on 13th November, 2006 at 2:08 pm  

      “Yes Bob Marleys father was a white Jamaican named Norval Sinclair Marley, he was a Marine Officer whose family hailed from Sussex and married the then 18 year old Cedella Booker.”

      Ha ha ha.

      You thought us white dudes had no soul didn’t you?

      Trust me, you haven’t seen me on the dance floor after a few pints.

    109. funkg — on 13th November, 2006 at 3:06 pm  

      Nah your alright chairwoman,
      i know i shouldn’t really blow my own trumpet like that.
      I can’t stand it when people don’t take real POSITIVE action to do something about perceived inequalities with WWC then moan about it or blame others. Like I said Im a little old fashioned and still believe in being civic minded.

    110. Chairwoman — on 13th November, 2006 at 3:25 pm  

      Blow your own trumpet, experience tells me that no other bugger ever does :-)

    111. Clairwil — on 13th November, 2006 at 9:07 pm  

      ‘I can’t stand it when people don’t take real POSITIVE action to do something about perceived inequalities with WWC then moan about it or blame others’

      Agreed and for anyone that has the time there are loads of great voluntary projects out there. Or if nothing suits, start your own. You’d be amazed at how useful skills you take for granted can be and how much people can be empowered with only a tiny amount of help. From a purely selfish standpoint voluntary work is the best thing I’ve ever done.

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