Sunny Hundal website



  • Family

    • Liberal Conspiracy
    • Sunny Hundal
  • Comrades

    • Andy Worthington
    • Angela Saini
    • Bartholomew’s notes
    • Bleeding Heart Show
    • Bloggerheads
    • Blood & Treasure
    • Campaign against Honour Killings
    • Cath Elliott
    • Chicken Yoghurt
    • Daily Mail Watch
    • Dave Hill
    • Dr. Mitu Khurana
    • Europhobia
    • Faith in Society
    • Feminism for non-lefties
    • Feministing
    • Gender Bytes
    • Harry’s Place
    • IKWRO
    • MediaWatchWatch
    • Ministry of Truth
    • Natalie Bennett
    • New Statesman blogs
    • Operation Black Vote
    • Our Kingdom
    • Robert Sharp
    • Rupa Huq
    • Shiraz Socialist
    • Shuggy’s Blog
    • Stumbling and Mumbling
    • Ta-Nehisi Coates
    • The F Word
    • Though Cowards Flinch
    • Tory Troll
    • UK Polling Report
  • In-laws

    • Aaron Heath
    • Douglas Clark's saloon
    • Earwicga
    • Get There Steppin’
    • Incurable Hippie
    • Neha Viswanathan
    • Power of Choice
    • Rita Banerji
    • Sarah
    • Sepia Mutiny
    • Sonia Faleiro
    • Southall Black Sisters
    • The Langar Hall
    • Turban Head

  • ‘As nothing more than their recruitment flier’


    by Clairwil
    9th November, 2006 at 12:17 am    

    I have lived all my life in Glasgow, most of it in Pollokshields. I am white, I am also a sentient human being as such I was horrified beyond words by the murder of Kriss Donald.

    I am overjoyed that the murderers have been caught, found guilty and sentenced for what was a disgusting, evil and savage attack on an innocent boy. Quite frankly it would have been abhorrent even if committed on the local thug. Make no mistake the people who committed this torture and murder were thugs, psychos and scum of the worst sort. Let them rot.

    Glasgow in common with most big cities has a gang culture. For most of the 20th and all of 21st century we in Glasgow have had a problem of one sort or another with gangs. Let me give you a brief rundown of my experiences.
    1. Running from the Pollok Bushwhackers/Govanhill/ Battlefield/ Shaw’s Boot Boys and others who’s names escape me.
    2. Watching the fights between the boys at my school and the nearest Catholic school.
    3. Attending Shawlands Academy during the very first ‘race riot’ or ‘neds fighting’ as we used to call it. Other than the third race was not an issue.

    My point being that aggressive young men will always find something to fight over. During the course of some research I was doing I looked at the news archive of a Glasgow newspaper from the 1930′s their were riots and fights over ‘territory’ , religion and football. It’s not hard to give a poor man a cause.

    Pollokshields is part of Glasgow and young lads swagger about acting hard. I grew up there and was attacked twice. Once by a white woman and once by an Asian man. My brother was hospitalised after being attacked by a group of white boys.

    Some gangs in Pollokshields have split along racial lines others haven’t. Take a walk through Pollokshields as much of the Scottish media did today and ask the Asian community what they think and you will find that they are appalled by the brutal murder of a fellow human being and glad that the (Asian) murderers have been locked up.

    Pollokshields is a good community and a beautiful part of Glasgow , there is no race relations crisis beyond my mum moaning about Asians concreting over their gardens and young boys fighting. The murder of Kriss Donald was a freak occurrence, a disgusting act by unusually disturbed young men.

    Since this was first reported I have been impressed by the stoic dignity shown by Kriss’ mother and sister. I thought their outbursts in court today were remarkably restrained given the horrifying evidence they’ve had to sit through. I also admired Mrs Donald’s pleas that this shouldn’t become a racial conflict.

    Maybe it’s just me but I suspect that the mother of a racially murdered boy has seen enough grief not to wish it on other mothers. What a pity racists couldn’t respect this. Instead we’ve been subjected to the BNP treating Kriss as nothing more than their recruitment flier. Every death is sad, the tragedy of Kriss’ is that he was only fifteen, not old enough to drive, smoke, drink, marry, join the army or vote.

    Couldn’t we not at least agree that he’s too young to be a racist mascot and let him rest? After all his trial has it’s place in history as the first racist murder prosecuted in Scottish legal history.

    ——————————-
    This is a guest article. Clairwil blogs here.

    Sunny adds: I’ll be a guest on BBC Asian Network at 9am discussing the Kriss Donald murder.


                  Post to del.icio.us


    Filed in: Race politics






    81 Comments below   |  

    Reactions: Twitter, blogs
    1. Tim Worstall

      Britblog Roundup #91…

      Once again we gather to celebrate those blog pieces which you think we should all have already read. If you’d like to make suggestions for next week then plesae do so by emailing the URL to britblog AT gmail DOT…




    1. TottenhamLad — on 9th November, 2006 at 1:06 am  

      “…After all his trial has it’s place in history as the first racist murder prosecuted in Scottish legal history….”

      Or alternatively:

      The UK’s worst racist murder ever.

      Perhaps there should be a ‘Kriss Donald’ inquiry to investigate the disproportionate ammount of violent racist crime commited by ethnic-immigrants in the UK.

    2. TottenhamLad — on 9th November, 2006 at 1:11 am  

      “…My point being that aggressive young men will always find something to fight over…”

      Oh well that explains why Stephen Lawrence and Anthony Walker are no longer with us…

    3. Nyrone — on 9th November, 2006 at 1:17 am  

      I am actually ashamed to admit that there have been times in my life (years ago) when I have looked at stories of young Asian men (that look like me) going to prison for some offence, and I would have thought to myself:

      “Gawd! They are probably being sooo like-victimised, they probably had fucked-up families like me too. after all, they are Asian males, they can’t be THAT bad”

      Bloody teenage victim-mentality days.
      Thank god I no longer think like that.
      My blood was actually kind of boiling at this story…I hope those 3 losers spend their entire lives in metal boxes for what they have arrogantly and viciously done to this boy.

      One of things I find interesting about this story is what has been said about police officers in Glasgow apparently being fearful of approaching young asian men for checks, in fear that they may be branded ‘rascist’ for ‘picking’ on asians during these ‘sensitive’ times.
      Could there be any harder job in the public arena these days?

      and I just had to check how the BNP were going to present this…and it’s not a great suprise. The first line from their ‘news’ team is:

      Three Muslim men have been found guilty of the horrific racially motivated murder of 15 year old Glasgow schoolboy Kriss Donald

      If these guys are Muslim, I’m a 3-legged unicorn.

    4. TottenhamLad — on 9th November, 2006 at 1:20 am  

      “…The murder of Kriss Donald was a freak occurrence…”

      The murder of Stephen Lawrence was a freak occurrence.

      Strange then that so much money was wasted on the Inquiry named after him.

    5. TottenhamLad — on 9th November, 2006 at 1:28 am  

      Wonder what excuses will be dragged out when the trail of the man accused of murdering Charlene Downes takes place.

    6. Sunny — on 9th November, 2006 at 2:04 am  

      The murder of Stephen Lawrence was a freak occurrence.

      Sure it was TL. Except the blatant miscarriages of justice that followed his murder weren’t. As I expected you’re still trying to use this murder for your own racist agenda.

      For a long time you’ve been coming on here telling us how the media hushed up Kriss’ murder. But the truth was the media could not write anything because the trial hadn’t happened.

      Now that it has, you’ve already moved on to other incidents to carry on justifying your racism. Your sincerity is utterly unconvincing and as transparent as water.

    7. Isaa — on 9th November, 2006 at 8:27 am  

      There’s an interesting article over at the BBC by Bob Wylie detailing how much help was provided by the Pakistani community here and abroad in catching these thugs. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6125660.stm

      I’ve also visited Pollokshileds and it can be a depressing place. The problem of Pakistani youth and gang culture is a UK wide problem and unfortunately not just restricted to Pollokshileds. It’s a serious issue and needs to be addressed.

    8. funkg — on 9th November, 2006 at 9:10 am  

      i once made a mild comment which may of been misconstrued as racist, and was deleted. why has ‘tottenham lads’ true racist postings been left on?

    9. Yakoub/Julaybib — on 9th November, 2006 at 9:15 am  

      “Most of the offenders (57%) in the racially motivated crimes identified in the British Crime Survey are not white. White victims said 82% of offenders were not white.” BBC site

      This is actually a misrepresentative statistic because 90% of Brits are white. It also represents people’s perceptions - race crime is highly subjective. Furthermore, white on black crime gets more coverage because it is less likely to lead to a proper investigation and conviction and is therefore - as in the case of Stephen Lawrence - controversial. Indeed, there are several outstanding cases in Scotland of white on black crime that have not led to any arrests.

      Sun columnists and the BNP may bleat on about this, and they have a point that racist crimes against white people are under-reported in the mainstream media. But to claim black on white crimes are more common than the reverse is a perversion of the truth, and at the end of the day, white people who are victims of race crime are more likely to see justice done.

      After the publicity surrounding this, you can be sure black on white crimes will be reported, and all the better. One less propoganda tool for Nazis.

      Wasalaam

      TMA

    10. Leon — on 9th November, 2006 at 10:11 am  

      Something I thought was good in the BBC report I heard was the family rejected the ‘offers’ of the BNP. They didn’t want his death being used as a political football.

      Such dignity is humbling…

    11. Anon+1 — on 9th November, 2006 at 10:14 am  

      I wouldnt say it was one less propoganda tool as if all black on white crime was reported, they would have a much stronger case to form arguements and win more support.
      Oh and to call people nazis is just retarded, why should you brand people like that for loving their country and not wanting to see it changed?

    12. Chairwoman — on 9th November, 2006 at 10:30 am  

      Clairwil - I have always been of the opinion that young men, no matter who, what, or where they are, have to fight each other.

      Anon+1 - Things that don’t change have a tendency to die.

    13. cazy horse — on 9th November, 2006 at 10:38 am  

      Saddam Hussein was a nazi. He didn’t want his country “changed”, same as Milosevic and your other mates… a nazi is a nazi - a racist little biggot with a small mind, whether white, black, blue or whatever colour, usually religious and strongly ‘nationalistic’. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to change your country.

    14. Kismet Hardy — on 9th November, 2006 at 10:47 am  

      Nyrone, I know where you’re coming from (or rather, were coming from). There was a time not so long ago (but long ago enough for it to be over) where Asians felt like victims, not because of an insecure mental state, but because they were getting spat at and beaten on a regular basis. So when our cousins everywhere from Southall and Luton to Birmingham and Bradford resorted to violence, the cowardly part of us did think: phew. Maybe now they’ll be afraid of us like they’re afraid of black people.

      Whether it was this action of Asians ‘standing up for themselves’ or just the result of the rest of us integrating successfully, the streets are rid of NF types messing our shit up.

      That was then. Now, the majority of Asian people do not want to see our cousins in gangs or getting violent. What was once seen as an act of protection is now regarded as the testosterone-fuelled antics of a dick. They no longer have our support, understanding or sympathy.

      Racist, violent dickheads will exist on both sides. The important thing to remember, is that the majority of white people condemn the murders of black & asian people every bit as much as the majority of black & Asian people hate the same happening to a white person.

      It’s important for Totty Lad to remember this when the BNP tell him all Asians are laughing and whooping over this horrific act made by three twats none of us want anything to do with

    15. Kismet Hardy — on 9th November, 2006 at 10:49 am  

      “The murder of Stephen Lawrence was a freak occurrence.

      Strange then that so much money was wasted on the Inquiry named after him.”

      All that money was ‘wasted’ because no one in their right minds could believe those 5 pricks were getting away with it. Even the Daily Mail put their picture on their front page calling them murderers for chrissakes!

    16. Anon+1 — on 9th November, 2006 at 10:55 am  

      If you are talking in terms of evolution and product lifecycle then i agree, but we are not. How would not changing British traditions enable us to die? id love you to answer that one fully.

      “When in Rome, do as the Romans do”

      And to the above event and so many others, blame it on a combination of frustration and gangster rap.

    17. Leon — on 9th November, 2006 at 11:13 am  

      Britain is nothing but change, look back over it’s history and you wont see a 100 year period were it was stuck in time. The change thing is a red herring, it’s just a cover for ‘we don’t want darkies here’. Big news flash; we’re here, and we aint going anywhere! This is our home and will continue to be so. Whether a small number of even smaller minded people like it or not.

    18. Anas — on 9th November, 2006 at 11:26 am  

      The murder of Kriss Donald was committed by a bunch of sub-human vermin, it doesn’t matter what their particular ethnicity, they are vile murderers. What is important, however, is that these vermin belonged to another group within humanity, this time ideologically defined: racist scum; and without a doubt their membership of that group counts more than their being Asians, or Pakistani. Except, of course, that is to other racist scum with their racist agendas; scum who want to exploit the brutal murder of a young man solely on the basis of his race to agitate for violence and retaliation against other innocent people on the basis of their race or ethnicity. This was a sickening and horrific crime, and I hope the perpetrators rot in jail.

    19. Douglas Clark — on 9th November, 2006 at 11:28 am  

      Clairwil,

      We have to thank our local MP, Muhammed Sarwar and the Pakistan Government for bringing this to the courts. These thugs obviously felt they were immune to, or could escape, prosecution. Thanks to concerted efforts this has not been the case.

      Every community has it’s criminals, and some of them are very violent indeed. Dealing with psychotic nutters should be completely independent of their race, nationality or religion. Which is why I have such difficulty understanding Tottenham Lads post. Cookie cutting society, to meet what seems to me to be a BNP agenda, is really no way forward.

      I know it is not really relevant, but the recent rape and murder of a Polish woman in Anderston came to mind when I read this. She was very young too, murdered by a white Scot. His crime was also horrendous.

      One way of looking at this is that there are good folk and bad folk, and skin colour, race and religion has nothing to do with it.

    20. Anas — on 9th November, 2006 at 11:32 am  

      That came to my mind too, Douglas. Imagine the furor if her murderer had turned out to be an Asian.

    21. Kismet Hardy — on 9th November, 2006 at 11:37 am  

      “When in Rome, do as the Romans do”

      For starters, the word Italy comes from the Greek. From the days of Augustus, Italia was a multi-ethnic territory consisting of tribes that gathered there from all across the globe. And that’s even before the Lombard invasions. The terramare people, who spoke in an Indo-European tongue, pretty much shaped the farming industry in the Bronze Age. I could go on, but I can’t be arsed. Suffice to say, if Romans hadn’t allowed integration, they wouldn’t have gone on to be quite so great and definitely wouldn’t sport olive skin and greasy black hair…

    22. Kismet Hardy — on 9th November, 2006 at 11:46 am  

      A grudging nod to The Scum: At least they resisted shouting Muslim in their article condemning these vile racist…

    23. Katy Newton — on 9th November, 2006 at 11:53 am  

      One way of looking at this is that there are good folk and bad folk, and skin colour, race and religion has nothing to do with it.

      At the risk of sound naive, isn’t that really the only way to look at everything?

    24. Jagdeep — on 9th November, 2006 at 11:55 am  

      I can’t believe the sadism that was involved in this murder. They had been in and out of jail and were proper psychos, beating up women in road rage incidents, cutting fingers off people. Good riddance to bad rubbish — I pray for Kriss’s soul and his family.

    25. Sunny — on 9th November, 2006 at 11:58 am  

      i once made a mild comment which may of been misconstrued as racist, and was deleted. why has ‘tottenham lads’ true racist postings been left on?

      funkg - you were? I don’t remember disagreeing with you in the past. TL’s comments are racist as such, though he may be one.

    26. Douglas Clark — on 9th November, 2006 at 12:00 pm  

      Katy,

      You are right, of course.

    27. Anas — on 9th November, 2006 at 12:21 pm  

      At the risk of sound naive, isn’t that really the only way to look at everything?

      Not if you have anything to do with politics.

    28. Anon+1 — on 9th November, 2006 at 12:26 pm  

      Immigrants pushing down the minimum wage, rich getting richer because of globalisation, Britain becoming ever more reliant on imported goods, crime and shootings on the rise, the law system a joke thanks to PC morons who believe everyone should keep their human rights no matter how worthless or dangerous to society they are, a nation of debt owning £1,258bn, list continues…

      I love change, lets welcome it with open arms

    29. Kismet Hardy — on 9th November, 2006 at 12:27 pm  

      No political party other than a fascist one would dare disagree with katy

    30. Kismet Hardy — on 9th November, 2006 at 12:28 pm  

      “I love change, lets welcome it with open arms”

      Good thing too. Nice to be out of those caves isn’t it?

    31. Roger — on 9th November, 2006 at 12:45 pm  

      ‘“…The murder of Kriss Donald was a freak occurrence…”

      The murder of Stephen Lawrence was a freak occurrence.

      Strange then that so much money was wasted on the Inquiry named after him. ‘
      The inquiry was not into the murder but into the insompetent and possibly corrupt police investigation- which was not a freak occurrence- and why it was incompetent. The police investigation into Kriss donald’s murder was examplry and efficient. no need for an inquiry.

    32. Anas — on 9th November, 2006 at 12:49 pm  

      The most courageous person through all this has been Kriss Donald’s mother:

      “It doesn’t matter to my family what colour these men are. Kriss is gone because of gangs, not just in Pollokshields but every area of our communities.”

    33. PedanticLurker — on 9th November, 2006 at 12:57 pm  

      Anon+1 - Things that don’t change have a tendency to die.

      Pheh. I’ll bet there’s a whole lot of ways in which you wish Britain doesn’t change - does that mean this sceptred isle is doomed to death? Or is it only the resistance of your political opponents to what you advocate that carries the tendency of death?

    34. Cartside — on 9th November, 2006 at 2:27 pm  

      I couldn’t agree more with Clairwil.

      Just a thought to add here, relating to a BBC Scotland coverage of the trial outcome this morning.

      The police was criticised by Pollokshields community reps for not acting on gang violence (which is ripe in Pollokshields, and ongoing, with physical and vandalising attacks). This was retorted by Police saying the community has to take responsibility as well. Actually, they do, but at the end of the day what can you do if you are physically attacked by a gang of 10 youths? Even recent positive and photo id of gang leaders has not led to any police action - are they scared of being interpreted as “racist” if they address youth gang violence, just because the gang leader happens to be Asian? How much community spirit do you need for the police to act and actually do their duty? I’m bewildered that even after such a gruesome murder police are reluctant to act upon gang violence in the very same place.

    35. Electro — on 9th November, 2006 at 3:22 pm  

      Cairwil’s posting is an attempt to whitewash this incident and subsume it under the la-di-dah “boys-will-be-boys” category.

      What no one has mentioned is the fact the the the “South Asian” fellow who tesitified against the three accused was SACKED by his muslim employer for having dared denounce the culprits.

      He broke ranks and accused his co-religionists and then was sacked for the “indiscretion”.

      That’s quite the committment to British values, wouldn’t you say?

      It’ll be a pleasure to watch the likes of “clairwill” twist and turn in agony as more and more incidents of this type surface. The explanations will become more tortured, lame and fantasy-based as the guilt-ridden do-gooders stubbornly refuse the acknowledge the elephant in the room.

    36. Kismet Hardy — on 9th November, 2006 at 3:34 pm  

      35 posts before someone turned this into a Muslim agenda. Not bad

    37. Jagdeep — on 9th November, 2006 at 3:57 pm  

      Electro, you are wrong in so many respects. However, I found this line most interesting in your post:

      It’ll be a pleasure to watch the likes of “clairwill” twist and turn in agony as more and more incidents of this type surface.

      Really? So you derive pleasure from incidents like this, rubbing your hands with glee — what a pleasent chap you are.

      methinks you are the big smelly farting and stinky elephant in the room, stewing in your own turd.

    38. Kismet Hardy — on 9th November, 2006 at 4:07 pm  

      sublime

    39. Douglas Clark — on 9th November, 2006 at 4:23 pm  

      Electro,

      Which bit of this, from Clairwills original post did you not understand?

      “I am overjoyed that the murderers have been caught, found guilty and sentenced for what was a disgusting, evil and savage attack on an innocent boy. Quite frankly it would have been abhorrent even if committed on the local thug. Make no mistake the people who committed this torture and murder were thugs, psychos and scum of the worst sort. Let them rot.”

      If you think that is whitewash you are an idiot.

    40. Douglas Clark — on 9th November, 2006 at 4:44 pm  

      Cartside,

      I agree with you. Sometimes I don’t really understand Strathclyde Police.

      Incidentally, I thought this blog would be free of other Glaswegians: now I’ve got two of you living within three miles of my front door. I always felt I was the voice of sanity talking to the Metropolitan elite, the Jai’s and the Hundals, the Katys and the rest. I didn’t know PP had a Northern Branch! Talking more sense than me, too. We demand independence! Err, maybe not.

    41. ZinZin — on 9th November, 2006 at 5:21 pm  

      Jagdeep
      Do you have a phd in insults?

    42. ZinZin — on 9th November, 2006 at 5:24 pm  

      Evil fucks. Not much more i can say.

    43. Kulvinder — on 9th November, 2006 at 5:43 pm  

      What no one has mentioned is the fact the the the “South Asian” fellow who tesitified against the three accused was SACKED by his muslim employer for having dared denounce the culprits.

      He broke ranks and accused his co-religionists and then was sacked for the “indiscretion”.

      That’s quite the committment to British values, wouldn’t you say?

      Id appreciate any link to the story you’re commenting on, the only thing i’ve heard about involved a man called ‘Derek Lesley’ whose name doesn’t sound particularly ‘ethnic’ another worker at the firm ‘Bruce Jeffery’ denied he was sacked for going to the police.

    44. raz — on 9th November, 2006 at 6:28 pm  

      Fucking scumbags. I like the fact that they agreed to be extradited to the UK, despite the lack of a treaty. Pakistani jails are defintely hard time!

    45. El Cid — on 9th November, 2006 at 6:48 pm  

      Sunny,
      I agree with you in leaving TL’s comments up.
      They weren’t racist per se, even if he is.
      If it weren’t for the fact he has a relentless unerring agenda, he might have a point… vaguely.
      PP has never shied away from the issue of black on white racism, which is sometimes disguised as crime.
      But as you and others have rightly pointed out there were clear reasons to do with the rubbish investigation with why the Stephen Lawrence caught so much media attention, and legal reasons why the Kriss Donald case did not.
      Nuff said.

    46. Don — on 9th November, 2006 at 7:02 pm  

      From the media reports it seems the Scottish police were swift and effective, the Pakistan police did a first rate job of getting these twats, the local MP was hugely energetic in pursuing this, and the local community was united in their anger and loathing.

      But maybe Electro has an inside track denied the rest of us. In which case he should have spoken up earlier.

      Or he may just be a gobshite.

    47. Clairwil — on 9th November, 2006 at 8:56 pm  

      Totennham Lad

      The UK’s worst racist murder ever

      I’m afraid my knowledge of the history of racist murder in the UK is limited so I’m not in a position to agree or disagree. I’m not really keen on placing atrocities into a ‘league’.

      ‘Perhaps there should be a ‘Kriss Donald’ inquiry to investigate the disproportionate amount of violent racist crime committed by ethnic-immigrants in the UK.’

      Why stop there? Could we have an enquiry into the disproportionate amount of men of all colours that commit sex offences and violent crime generally?

      Nyrone

      ‘Gawd! They are probably being sooo like-victimised, they probably had fucked-up families like me too. after all, they are Asian males, they can’t be THAT bad’

      I am ashamed to say I used to think along similar lines when I was young. All through primary the Asian kids were bullied and never stood up to it. The first time I ever saw an Asian behave like a prick I had to stop myself saying ‘but you don’t do that’. Perhaps we could form a self help group for recovering racial stereotypers.

      ‘If these guys are Muslim, I’m a 3-legged unicorn.’

      Yes I think their habit of hanging round nightclubs, drinking and attacking people throws some doubt on their Muslim credentials.

      Douglas Clark

      ‘We have to thank our local MP, Muhammed Sarwar and the Pakistan Government for bringing this to the courts’

      Yes, I never been a fan of Mr Sarwar however his intervention in this case is to be commended. I think he’s a Pakistani isn’t he? Yes I think he’s quite open about it. What is the racist position on his intervention I wonder?

      Anon 1+

      ‘Immigrants pushing down the minimum wage, rich getting richer because of globalisation, Britain becoming ever more reliant on imported goods, crime and shootings on the rise, the law system a joke thanks to PC morons who believe everyone should keep their human rights no matter how worthless or dangerous to society they are, a nation of debt owning £1,258bn, list continues.’

      Good God! That sounds awful but what on earth does it have to do with Kriss Donald. Much as it pains me to admit it his killers were Scottish.

      Electro

      ‘Clairwil’s posting is an attempt to whitewash this incident and subsume it under the la-di-dah “boys-will-be-boys” category.’

      I’m at a loss as how you come to that conclusion. The gang thing generally is boys will be boys. The murder of Kriss was the act of sadistic trash who should rot in jail.

      ‘It’ll be a pleasure to watch the likes of “clairwill” twist and turn in agony as more and more incidents of this type surface. The explanations will become more tortured, lame and fantasy-based as the guilt-ridden do-gooders stubbornly refuse the acknowledge the elephant in the room.’

      You’ve lost me here. I don’t think I have made any excuses for the murder of Kriss Donald, chiefly because there aren’t any. I haven’t attempted to explain why the murder happened. Which elephant is this anyway? Some Scottish- Asians are violent murderers?
      What next? The crimes of Rose West suggest that overweight women can be a bit sadistic? As for watching me twist and turn in agony I’ll be happy to send you my price list if that’s your kink.

      Cartside,
      Hiya and congratulations on your pregnancy.

      Everyone else,
      Some excellent points. Thanks for your comments.

    48. Douglas Clark — on 9th November, 2006 at 9:42 pm  

      Clairwill,

      Re Muhammed Sarwar,

      I thought he was a bit of a twit too. Apparently not. AFAIK he is of Pakistani origin. Or maybe Govan :) . It all gets too complicated these days. Anyway, on my theory for today he has moved from being a little bit crap to quite a bit good. I might even vote for him next time around.

    49. Clairwil — on 9th November, 2006 at 10:11 pm  

      Douglas,
      I’ve never voted Labour in my life and as I’ve said I’ve never been a great fan of Sarwar. That said I’m giving serious thought to voting for him next time. He has intervened in a very productive way in the Kriss Donald case and the Mizbah/Molly case. I believe he is up for some sort of Scottish politics award and I sincerely hope he wins it. His work over the last few years has been second to none.

    50. Nick — on 9th November, 2006 at 11:10 pm  

      I agree it’s very lazy to label TL’s comments racist. I posted a comment on his site asking him if he was - he hasn’t got back to me yet - but apart from a link to a bona fide BNP site, I’m not convinced he is a white supremacist, as such.

      Aside from his preoccupations, the links on his site include PP and other sites that don’t reflect the views of the right or a fascist mind-set. As for his views, well they are anti-immigration certainly and full of anger from the perspective of the alienated white working class, but their general tone is no more extreme than that routinely displayed and expressed by minority communities. And the WWC increasingly perceives itself as a minority community.

      Three cheers to Sunny for including his voice - much better to get these things out in the open and have a proper dialogue rather than brushing them under the carpet. By doing so you stoke further communal tension.

    51. Clairwil — on 9th November, 2006 at 11:25 pm  

      ‘And the WWC increasingly perceives itself as a minority community.

      Three cheers to Sunny for including his voice - much better to get these things out in the open and have a proper dialogue rather than brushing them under the carpet. By doing so you stoke further communal tension.’

      All very true. However the fact remains the the UK has a white majority. Nevertheless I’m fast coming round to the view that the WWC should get a bit of the ‘special provision’ set aside for various ethic groups. That might mean accepting things like Orange marches and so on. I don’t care White working class UK culture is valid and deserves to be treated as such.

    52. Katy — on 10th November, 2006 at 12:42 am  

      I thought this was a really good article, Clairwill.

    53. Neil — on 10th November, 2006 at 3:01 pm  

      It wasn’t Asians it was Pakistanis, just like it wasn’t ‘Asians’ that rioted in Oldham/Burnley or bombed the tube.

    54. raz — on 10th November, 2006 at 3:06 pm  

      Sadly for you Neil, this guy was an Asian:

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6120560.stm

    55. funkg — on 10th November, 2006 at 4:14 pm  

      I agree with some of the points made that it is a lazy supposition to assume that Tottenham’s lads viewpoints are racist. Of course I don’t know him and reckon I could share a pint with him, but inflammatory words don’t help ferment community cohesion if community cohesion is what we want.
      Yes I agree there are white working class communities who feel marginalised, and need educational and employment support towards empowerment, but griping and harping on about ‘ethnics’ and their ‘special treatment’ wont get the WWC anywhere in this new economy.
      I work in the field of employment and training, I have ACTIVLEY supported white working class/NEET adult men find employment, on average about 30 a year, alongside the work I do with other communities.
      I have seen the damage that has been done to WWC men in the east end, who feel marginalised and have turned to drink and drugs. Many men above the ages of 40 went to bog standard schools, and left to work in declining industries. At the time I thought they were the lucky ones as they had guaranteed jobs after school, the ethnics did not. Our only other options were to study then go onto Uni, but at the time we were looked on as ‘mugs’

      Im a 37 black man who grew up in the east end when it was ‘run’ by the NF, I went to school with them, and I have a great understanding of their mentality. The very same issue these white working class men face, black and asian Britons can fall into this too. black and asian brits who came in the 50s and 60s were pioneers who made things easier for the coming communities and generations, in terms of fighting battles on the streets, in schools and in legislation changes.
      I often travel on the docklands light railway and on buses, often im the only ‘cockney’ sounding person on the bus. Even young black and asian brits don’t talk in that distinctive way anymore, instead adopting that ridiculous hybrid yardie accent. My point is that I don’t expect everyone on PP to be politically correct and conform to a left wing bias, but right wing reactionary comments will be picked up on and challenged.

    56. Jagdeep — on 10th November, 2006 at 4:38 pm  

      Great post funkg. I buy you a cyber pint of beer too for that.

    57. funkg — on 10th November, 2006 at 5:23 pm  

      Cheers jagdeep, ill remember that!

      I just wanted to counter accusations that Asians and blacks will give ‘special treatment’ in front line services such as job centres etc where many marginalised community members may end up going. Many young front line workers often black and asian are graduates, who for a variety of reasons don’t get the blue chip company jobs and end up working in community centred jobs. If you go to front line services, in London how many middle class whites do you see? Not many because they will take on the top city jobs, media etc. why move into areas such as ‘trendy’ parts of east london with its myriad poverty and not put anything back in? in the old days the middle classes used to do a lot of work in the east end towards tackling poverty, all that seems to happen now is that they close themselves off in gated communities and hang out in monocultural pubs and clubs.
      ethnic minority front line workers are often tougher on their ‘own’ and have no time for their constant whinges about racism etc. some WWC men through various reasons don’t often the new ‘soft skills’ needed such as communication, interpersonal skills and IT.
      some of my old (white) school friends ask how me how I got into my work, and I can often sense them ‘screwing’ it was not rocket science, I studied, worked hard and open my eyes and life to a range of experiences.

    58. Neil — on 10th November, 2006 at 5:26 pm  

      He was indeed Asian but whos name was he acting in ?

      As for the 3 in Glasgow,Rioters up north etc…there is no doubt.

    59. Chairwoman — on 10th November, 2006 at 5:52 pm  

      funkg - I’m with Jagdeep on this. I found your post really interesting. I’m a middle aged Jewish Londoner, and my best friend is a similarly aged lady from Barbados by way of Harlem, NYC (when we were young, we called ourselves a salt and pepper team).

      You are so right about ethnic minorities being tougher on their ‘own’. My girl has no time for whingers playing the race card. She has struggled, perservered, and succeeded, and has no patience with people who won’t try.

      I am going to recommend your post to her, as it will warm the cockles of her heart.

    60. Chairwoman — on 10th November, 2006 at 6:01 pm  

      I see Nick Griffen got off.

    61. Don — on 10th November, 2006 at 6:06 pm  

      The case should never have been brought to trial.

    62. Chairwoman — on 10th November, 2006 at 6:33 pm  

      I agree. There was no case to answer, but didn’t it give him a lovely platform?

    63. El Cid — on 10th November, 2006 at 9:04 pm  

      Hey funkg, eighties funk, cockneyish accent, DLR…. sounds like we have a few things in common (and only 3 years between us). I bet you thought Hagler beat Sugar Ray too. I feel like I know you, although clearly I don’t.

      From what i’ve read from TL before, though, I’m not sure you really would have a pint with him (or he with you). I don’t think I would.

      Funny enough, I hope Tottenham Lad reads this. I went to school in N17 — The Somerset School (even if I am N4 born and bred). Where did you go TL?

    64. El Cid — on 10th November, 2006 at 9:06 pm  

      funkg.. apart from the creationist stuff mind. not so sure we agree on that!

    65. TottenhamLad — on 11th November, 2006 at 12:54 am  

      El Cid,

      I wanted to go to Tottenham County with my friends from Devonshire Hill primary but was sent to Wood Green instead.

      My mum and dad were leftwing so my early political memories are of going on anti-Vietnam war marches.

      While I was still at school I joined the ANL and the SWP, even though only a few years before my grandmother had to move out of Tottenham when my grandfather (an ex 8th Army WWII vetran) died because of all the muggings of old (English) people by, to be blunt, blacks.

      I was beaten unconscious by the police on an anti-NF march in Lewisham in the late seventies.

      I went on all the biggest demos of the late 70′s and 80 supporting Troops Out, CND, ANL, Freedom in South Africa, Freedom in Zimbabwe, and support for the PLO. I even went on a march to free Winston Silcott.

      I called myself a socialist and anti-racist, met and shook hands with Bernie Grant twice, and voted Labour through thick and thin.

      Doubts crept in during the Stephen Lawrence inquiry when, believing people are innocent until found guilty, I thought it unfair the way the five lads ‘accused’ of his murder had been treated.

      I asked around and found out that my parents, who are the most harmless, kindest, and unassuming people you could meet had both been racially abused more than once while walking the streets of Tottenham (my mother was a dinner lady at Sommerset school and it happened to her there as well). I found out that my brother who moved to Cornwall to get away from London did so because of racial abuse he and his wife and children suffered in Wood Green.

      I have had many black and asian friends, including some girlfriends. This includes a very close female african friend over the last ten years who knows how I feel. She has said to me many times she can not understand why the English are so tolerant and are not more angry about the ways things are going in this country, I have told her it is because they hold it in, but one day it will show itself.

      I have my family tree so I know all my relatives who fought and died in WWII and WWI. I have a uncle who was wounded on the beaches of Normandy. I even have an ancestor who fought and died during the Napoleonic wars.

      I’m lucky to be old enough to remember Tottenham when it was a normal crime free English working class part of the country where people really could leave their doors unlocked and open, but am still young enough to be bringing up a family so I can tell my children what it used to be like.

      I got married late and now have a beautiful little daughter of twenty months with my hair and eyes. I always keep a photograph of her while I blog because I want to remind myself that I do not want her to grow up in a country where Charlene Downes, Mary-Ann Lengehan, Kriss Donald, Ross Parker and many others, met such horrific fates.

      I hate no one. I love my family and country.

      As it (nearly) said on the football flag that was banned:
      Born in England, Live in England, Fight for England, Die for England

      Well that’s my story, I could say more but it might get boring…

    66. Clairwil — on 11th November, 2006 at 1:16 am  

      TL,

      ‘Doubts crept in during the Stephen Lawrence inquiry when, believing people are innocent until found guilty, I thought it unfair the way the five lads ‘accused’ of his murder had been treated’

      I was a bit alarmed that people who would sneer at a group of working class women bawling abuse a a sentenced paedophile being taken out of court were prepared to spit at and abuse a group of men who hadn’t actually been convicted of anything. I do wonder if they’d have been as tolerant of a white croed doing the same to five black suspects in similar circumstances.

      ‘I always keep a photograph of her while I blog because I want to remind myself that I do not want her to grow up in a country where Charlene Downes, Mary-Ann Lengehan, Kriss Donald, Ross Parker and many others, met such horrific fates.’

      I can understand your revulsion at these crimes and the people who committed them but why are you so fixated on the racial element. Are you happy to bring up your daughter in the same country where Holly and Jessica, Lesly-Ann, John Kilbride, Pauline Read, Keith Bennett, Caroline Hogg met such horrific fates?
      There is no excuse for such sadism, I have little interest in the’reasons’ of the perpetrators of such crimes.

      I have been racially abused a few times. I don’t see why I should respond by becoming a racist. Anti-social trash is available in all colours, as are decent people, witty people, kind people and so on.

      You strike me as a decent fellow who’s had his beliefs shattered, but I really don’t think you’re hardline response is in any way helpful.

    67. Anas — on 11th November, 2006 at 1:56 pm  

      I have been racially abused a few times. I don’t see why I should respond by becoming a racist.

      Exactly Clarwill. This is the crux of the matter.

    68. Zak — on 12th November, 2006 at 5:04 pm  

      Your post was quite touching TL, however while I am not from a politically activist leftist anti racist background.

      I have had experiences that would surprise you, I’ve experienced racism and prejudice in 3 different countries, in Britain i have seen the paki bashing culture up close although except for one incident I have not suffered directly from it.I have also experienced racism for being an ethnic minority in Pakistan and seen it up close in the middle east . I’m not a racist, and I will not allow racism to turn me into one..ultimately i feel there is a flaw in the anti racism mind set,…just because one suffers abuse in any form does not mean they being a victim are inherently good. ..in the end the character of a person is shown when they exercise power, whether by virtue of being a majority or by virtue of exercising power.

    69. Clairwil — on 12th November, 2006 at 10:53 pm  

      Some excellent article on the murder of Kriss.

      http://www.sundayherald.com/59039

      http://www.sundayherald.com/59040

      http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/tm_headline=no-shame%26method=full%26objectid=18082345%26siteid=64736-name_page.html

      ‘I am haunted by his words… “I’m only 15″.’

      http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/opinion/columnists/elainecsmith/tm_method=full%26objectid=18082398%26siteid=64736-name_page.html

    70. Shuggy — on 12th November, 2006 at 10:57 pm  

      “Watching the fights between the boys at my school and the nearest Catholic school.”

      I think I’m teaching at this place. No names but this being the largest school in Western Europe? Has a fleeto who go by the charming name of the ‘Toryglen Nazis’? My point being while I agree this murder is part and parcel of Glasgow’s gang culture, I don’t think it’s tenable to say it’s gang-related in inverse proportion to its racist nature.

      P.S. As someone mentioned above - Mohammed Sarwar? Hats off to him. Like many of those products of the Glasgow Labour establishment, I’ve never had a particularly high regard for him but on this? Righteous piece of work, no mistake. He’s got my vote. Except I don’t live on the South Side. Thank goodness. Temple Scurvy, ya bass ;-)

    71. Clairwil — on 12th November, 2006 at 11:32 pm  

      ‘Watching the fights between the boys at my school and the nearest Catholic school’

      That took place in the later years of primary school. I don’t dispute Kriss Donald’s murder was racist, I just dispute that gangs in Pollokshields are always split along race lines.

      http://www.sundayherald.com/59039

      The scum responsible for Kriss’ murder were quite happy to attack fellow Asians and I suspect anyone they perceived as weaker.

    72. Shuggy — on 13th November, 2006 at 12:17 am  

      I just dispute that gangs in Pollokshields are always split along race lines.

      I’d dispute that too. But no-one’s saying that. But they do seem to be suggesting that the relationship between gangs and racism is somehow a zero-sum game. This is not so.

    73. Clairwil — on 13th November, 2006 at 12:33 am  

      I think gangs are pretty much as they’ve always been. They can fight over football, race, religion, sexuality, territory.

      For the most part the ‘reasons’ given for attacking someone are just excuses by ‘hardmen’ to do what they do best. As I’ve mentioned previously I’m white, I’ve spent roughly twenty years of my life in Pollokshields and visit my parents there regularly. I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I’ve been racially abused or felt I was being intimated because of my race.

      On the other hand I have been raped twice, flashed eleven times and the victim of sexist verbal abuse more times than I can count. My experiences are not uncommon amongst women.

      I don’t deny racial violence is a two way street. I just wonder at the emphasis placed on it when abuse of women remains more common.

    74. Moving Target — on 13th November, 2006 at 12:40 am  

      Clairwil

      I don’t want to pry - and if I am, in Glasgow parlance feel free to tell me to Get Tae F*ck - but the sexual abuse you have suffered is sickening and has genuinely shocked me. Was this as result of modern life in Glasgow - or were you in situations where you might have been more at risk?

    75. Clairwil — on 13th November, 2006 at 12:49 am  

      Well,
      First the first rape was partly down to my own naivety. The flashings happened over a period of three years walking home from school or visiting friends locally. On all but two occasions I was with friends. As for the verbal abuse I do my best to avoid roadworkers and building sites but it’s not always possible.

      As I’ve said before I don’t think my experiences are unique. Not all men hate women but some men hate wowen all the time.

    76. Moving Target — on 13th November, 2006 at 1:00 am  

      Clairwil - my heart goes out to you, and to be honest it is f*cking unacceptable that this sort of thing has come your way (and believe me, I’m no Germaine Greer).

      When it comes to the builders and the like, never having experienced gangs of women cat calling me (hard to believe I know)I don’t know what this would be like. Was it “alright darling” that sort of thing? Would the blokes doing it say that it was a compliment (unwanted I know)?

    77. Graeme — on 13th November, 2006 at 1:40 pm  

      “I don’t deny racial violence is a two way street. I just wonder at the emphasis placed on it when abuse of women remains more common.”

      For instance: the rape and murder of Farah Noor Adams along the Kelvin cyclepath a little over a year ago. It was another heinous crime, and yet recieved very little coverage in comparison to this.

    78. Ian Thorpe — on 13th November, 2006 at 6:20 pm  

      The only point left to add is that we must not overlook the effects of free market capitalism (aka a culture of ruthless self interest) in this.
      In ancient Rome the gangs were rich kids, brought up to believe in their slave culture the rich could do just what they liked, terrorising people who had a struggle just to survive.

      In the post Industrial Revolution ghettos of Europe and America problems were mostly confined to poor areas as education and material diversions kept the rich not exactly out of trouble but in different kinds of trouble, now education seems to be failing to instil in the majority of its victims the basic values needed for civilised living. The “do as you will but harm none” of ancient pagan culture that was passed on, modified, through Christianity, Judaeism & Islam seems to have given way to “so long as you and your mates are having a laugh, fuck anybody else’s feelings.”

    79. polskax — on 3rd December, 2006 at 5:59 pm  

      The fact is, roughly half of all race murder victims are white. The British Crime Survey also finds half of all racially motivated incidents are committed against white people. As white people make up 88% of the populace, and other groups make up 12%, this means that a non-white person is almost 7 times more likely to attack someone in a racist incident, and the same goes for racist murder.

      I’m not a member of the far right, I just think that the fact that whenever the press really publicises a racist attack or murder, it’s almost exclusively a white on black crime.
      This distorts reality and actively plays into the hands of the far right - they have at least one argument it is impossible to defeat them on. The media shows horrendous bias.

    80. polskax — on 3rd December, 2006 at 6:03 pm  

      I am also incredulous that groups, usually leftist and/or liberal, actively engage in anti-racism rhetoric, their bias is even worse than the media. I would go as far as saying major groups like the ARA, to my knowledge, have never even mentioned an act of anti-white racism or murder, let alone condemn it.

      The irony being that these are groups are, then, by definition, racist. If racism involves discriminating on the grounds of race, surely any group or individual ignoring all white victims of racial violence and murder is, fundamentally and undeniably, a racist?

    Sorry, the comment form is closed at this time.

    Pickled Politics © Copyright 2005 - 2010. All rights reserved. Terms and conditions.
    With the help of PHP and Wordpress.