good one clairwil. what a smug attitude on his part – i think we should get hold of whichever poor muggins he has got hold of to clean for him and alert them to what he’s been saying on internet threads. that’ll teach him she’ll throw the sock at him for his cold-blooded manipulative approach.

As to your question; I’ll leave the answer up to your powers of seduction. In any case, would you really want to marry a glorified ‘merry-maid’?

Have I ever been in a young man’s apartment?

I used to be a young man with an apartment, a VERY messy apartment, Chairwomen, so I DO get your point.

That said, I never neglected my personal hygiene.

Most young men don’t, as a matter of fact. Something about “getting” the girl, and all.

That way SHE can clean the apartment!

Even the sexiest and smartest of women can be cajoled, humoured by young men into becomming “mummy”, if only for the time it takes to straighten things up.

One more thing; I may not be clairvoyant, but I’m sure your husband loved you very, very much.

There ya go!

Cleanliness is something parents are supposed to teach children. We teach them to wash their privates in much the same way we teach them to wash between their toes.

Are you suggesting, Chairwomen, that we practise circumcision as a way of circumventing parental responsabilities as pertains to teaching our offsring good personal hygiene?

So your lover is cicumcised, it’s just that his feet smell like two pots of blue cheese and he’s got potatos and other tubers thriving in the wax that fills his ears!

Once again, it is irresponsable, misleading and downright dangerous to spread the myth that circumcision can help guard against ANY form of V.D.

Yep, my attitude to religion is similar; don’t indoctrinate them, let them decide when they feel ready too.

As for the rest of your post, moral tones aside, very interesting stuff. Can you provide links to your points (just in case any of us happen to be working on a piece about sex education in schools koff koff)?

Were males left intact until adulthood, I doubt that many of them…whether Jewish or Muslim… would voluntarily opt for the “procedure”.

Afterall, one can still hear without ones outer ears, but who’d want to have ‘em chopped off. Having no outer ears is unattractive, and with no earlobes you can’t wear jewelry and you lose two secondary, but still important, erogenous zones.

Actually i’d quite fancy it after you mentioned the extreme sex acts, i’ve semi-toyed with the idea of a prince albert, penile piercings and body modifications aren’t only done on religious grounds.

Are you a parent? If so have you made choices for your children? If you’re not, and you haven’t, then you’re not in a position to pontificate to those of us who have and do. If you are, then some of the choices you have made would not have been made by your children if they had had the opportunity to choose.

BTW before my husband died, we’d been together for 30 years, we had been monogamous, thank you, I don’t need your morality lecture, and our only child is female, so no issue there.

Your high-handed pomposity just gets right up my nose.

Nope. Religion makes no difference. How many cases of aids among the Amish (always uncut) has anyone ever heard about? The Amish aren’t into multiple partners, so they’ve extremely low rates of infection.

It’s an individual’s behavior that makes the difference.

Polish and German gays are both uncircumcised, but the latter have much higher rates of infection. Poland is still kinda 1950s and so gay “liberation”, and the behavior that tends to entail, has yet to make the inroads there that it has in West European countries.

Electro – I actually saw Bill Clinton in Africa, on the television promoting circumcision. You obviously have issues with circumcision. That’s your problem

Have a hero cookie, darlin’. Clinton’s hypocrisy shows once again; the fella is intact, but he feels that others shouldn’t enjoy the same status.

Sonia – I think it’s a matter of personal choice

Yes newborns and young boys are always making choices for themselves!

Were males left intact until adulthood, I doubt that many of them…whether Jewish or Muslim… would voluntarily opt for the “procedure”.

Afterall, one can still hear without ones outer ears, but who’d want to have ‘em chopped off. Having no outer ears is unattractive, and with no earlobes you can’t wear jewelry and you lose two secondary, but still important, erogenous zones.

so electro – as you seem to be a bit more knowledgeable – what about the other so-called health benefits of being circumsised – true or more rumour?

Cervical cancer is another false start. Over the past 10 to 15 years cancer researchers have discovered that there’s a large genetic component to the maladie.

Girls born into families that have higher rates of breast cancer tend to be more susceptable to the disease than those girls from family backgrounds with less breast cancer.

To claim otherwise is tantamount to saying an uncircumcised guy masturbating, rubbing himself between his wife’s cleavage means she’s more likely to develope breast cancer.

It’s plainly stupid!

And as for contracting HIV, the identical stats for HIV infections in British gay men ( mostly intact) and American gays ( mostly cut) demonstrates, without any doubt whatsoever, that circumcision makes no difference.

Once again, personal responsability, lifestyle choices and minimal promiscuity are by far your best chances for avoiding the disease. Stick to one partner.

Listen up!

That position, however, is extremely unpopular because it undermines the billions made from the sex-trade, not to mention the obscene profits generated from all the products sold by associating them with “getting the girl” or “getting the guy”.

Few people realise……apart from maybe the Pope….. just to what extent celibacy and monogamy give turbo-capitalism a kick in the teeth.

“Safe sex” (promiscuity with a condom) is really just a corporate logo.

If girls would stick to one guy and guys to one girl, they’d both save shitloads of money be eschewing the fancy duds, the perfumes, the big cars, etc, etc, etc.

To boot, they’d be healthy!

As someone in their lates 40s, this is something I’ve learned……but only in retrospect…..

Kulvinder, would you also condone cannibalising comatose patients for “spare parts”, if they were unlikely to wake up and had given no explicit instructions before the accident stating their objections to this (and bear in mind that they hadn’t given their consent either) ?

Condone it! i think thats a very good idea! Though cannibalising is just being emotive.

So you don’t think that infanticide (the killing of newborn babies) should be classified as murder and outlawed accordingly ?

If not, why not ?

Because i’d have a very hard time justifying the ‘do as you wish’ attitude i have towards abortion. I can’t see why its bad to kill the same entity outside the womb but condone it whilst its inside.

Rightly or wrongly, I tend to see many of your arguments more as thought experiments or ways to probe an interlocutor’s argument rather than as held convictions.

I’m quite sincere

Alright lets try another way, Jai would accept abortion if there was severe physical deformity and i think the general thoughts against mutilation are that it would ‘reduce’ the babies ‘ability’ in the future. Would any of you allow
what we consider a disability or handicap to be engineered in? This has happened with a deaf couple ‘choosing’ to have a deaf baby. If we say no, that we should not allow diabled children to be produced, and we terminate them before birth, what exactly is the difference between that act and saying its not ok once they are born?

Meanwhile, I think I’ll cut and run.

Agreed, if there was ever a need for sensitivity for men (rarely I admit) it’s now.