Tonight at 9pm…
I’ll be making a guest appearance on the new internet-TV station 18 Doughty Street tonight at 9pm (programme is called Vox Politics), along with Newsnight editor Peter Barron and writer / journalist Dave Hill. It will be presented by Iain Dale. We will be discussing the nature of BBC debates, internet regulation and other news. More here.
Watch by clicking here
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Damn I need to get net access at home (the crappy windows media player they use doesn’t work at work)…
Sunny, will you be countering their “anti establishment” concerns about the BBC?
Sunny,
Well done on the show. And thanks for your help, btw.
I bloody wish they’d sort another media player for their archive…
Sunny – watched the whole show.
I think your point about balance and impartiality is at the crux of the future for the BBC.
As you point out, two extreme views on a single show might be “impartial” and make good entertainment or sport, but is it little wonder that when these are show, viewers subconsciously see it a as sport and so cheer on their own champion – and supporters can’t understand why the BBC has the other “team” even in the studio!! and complain of bias. There is not informed “balance”.
As you say – less entertainment and more informed, educated and balanced programmes that are not trying to be a boxing match. We will be able to see the world through a less distorted lens and make our own minds up.
I think David Hill’s opposite tack of more polemic reporting , but clearly marked as such, will just be a more exaggerated version of what we have at present and we will have “reporter as personality” – John Pilger is OK in small doses but if there were twenty of him from all points of the political compass- arghhh..
No, its perhaps not “progressive”, but perhaps a return to a past were the debate was longer with more info and less entertainment, but I suspect, less ratings. But then what the hell is the licence fee for if not to have to chase ratings!!
Justforfun
Leon – If you are using Real Media Player , it does not work, but dust down your Win Media player on the start menu and open it – then in web window – ‘Copy’ the link by RMB and then open your Win Media player and then paste in the link .
Fiddly but it worked for me
Justforfun
Exactly my point, WMP doesn’t work for me…besides if they had any sense they’d put each show on YouTube so us bloggers can embed and post about…
18 Doughty Street should know that the video stream doesn’t work with Firefox. Lamers!
Other than that it was pretty good. Half an hour into the discussion it was good see Sunny turn the heat up on the BBC bloke with the imbalance of Muslim extremist exposure vs BNP exposure. The BBC guy (forget his name) said “Well its Muslims who blow people out the sky”, to which Sunny rejoindered with “What about the recent BNP stash that was uncovered?”.
Good stuff mate.
right! doesn’t work with Firefox – complete losers in that case – catering to an IE audience! shame on them. that will need to be sorted out then won’t it!
Hundal, you need to do some Pickled Politics broadcasts. Just do some interview or get yourself or one of your associates to talk about something, upload to youtube then post it here. PPTV. See how it goes. It will break the monotony at least and be something different.
Nooooo! Then we’d all know what each other looks like and the mystery will be gone.
Take a look at Hundals appearence on this TV show Chairwoman. He has the shaved head Mexican gangster goatee Punjabi boy look that is quite popular these days amongst Southall youth. You may be impressed.
Jagdeep – how dare you compare me with all the Punjabi rudeboys. I’m clearly different. My beard is shaved less immaculately than theirs.
Pickled Politics TV eh? Don’t worry it’s coming
I’m excited already!
I cant watch it either as it says the my ISp doesnt support the media player of that site. Please can one of you web and computer literate people advise how else can i watch it? my isp is Aol.thanks
sunny, are you serious about PPTV?
That along with Podcasts is something the writers discussed in the summer…it’s not inconcievable but would take some serious commitment…
Sabina, AOL is evil RUN!!!
Thanks sid,i might run later ,but i still want to watch this discussion.aol has too efficient a firewall,nothing gets past it and it drives you mad1
I’m trying to find a way of downloading this file so that it can then be uploaded to YouTube. Any ideas on how to download the WMV file?
A quick search threw this up (there’s a free trial version): http://emoney.al.ru/capture-streaming-video-and-audio/record-streaming-video-windows-media-and-real-video.htm
When Iain Dale mentioned the issue of a BBC bias during the Lebanon conflict, I was nodding along. Yeah, completely. But then to my utter astonishment he spoke about BBC being pro-Hezbollah!?!?! Does anyone apart from Israel-firsters actually think this, especially a couple of weeks after it broadcast a program that was clearly pro-Israel propaganda(http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0286.htm#Top).
People in here have accused me of being obsessed with Israel/Palestine, but the problem is the complete misinformation about the conflict that is a feature of British TV coverage, and the fact that people like Melanie Philips can get away with spreading the most vicious lies.
yeah why not PP tv! after all 18 doughty st. is just streaming video through an interface which makes it look like tv innit. only thing really that needs consideration is enough space to store the videos.. =
IP Tv’s all the rage these days. the green tv folks (http://green.tv) set themselves up as the ‘first broadband tv channel on the net dedicated to the environment’. some media panel thing i went to were discussing how internet tv was going to be all very much niche=focused. so i guess 18 D. st. has snapped up the politics niche.
Leon, what would you like to achieve with the channel, video clips, short films, interviews, docs?
Where would you screen them, do you have a budget?
It’s not gonna be a load of wanky chat shows is it?
You should think of ways to expand beyond the textual format, will it include satire?
I’ve made 3 shorts and a 40-min piece.
I’d be happy to help out…
Does anyone have a PD 150 or a Sony HD cam?
Do I detect the sound of the pot addressing the kettle?
PP tv could have Kismet Hardy sex shows every weekend!
Can someone explain to me why Ian Dale said on 18DST he felt the BNP were leftist last night? Was that real or was I hearing things? or did I make it up altogether?
Neeways it sucks being on a dialup.
Vikrant!
That’s another fine idea destroyed by porn!
Oh God Anas goes off on one….another thread bites the dust…
Anyway……..this PPTV sounds exciting. But you’d have to do something different. As it happens I think that simple stuff could work. But you’d need an angle — maybe do satirical skits on the news, or just have a discussion programme or a weekly monologue – why not?? Its about using media in different ways and stuff.
no more discussion programmes!
Let’s have pro-active authored works that present new ideas and encourage participation from others.
I’m seriously thinking of doing a doc about introducing myself to my road.
I dont know any of them! They don’t even say ‘hello’ to me in the morning…
wouldn’t it be great to use PPTV as a medium for improving relations between communities too?
Ok! I’m gonna start writing treatments…
Leon email me at nyrone@gmail.com
let’s start working on a broad strategy for online distribution of content and all legal clearance for sound and stock archive footage!
Yes I am thinking about how PPtv would play out. right now it’s still an idea and some vague footage (Sonia
).
Nyrone – his point is that the BNP is very socialist. which is true. Technically it’s politics are Nationalist Socialist. So, technically (on economics) it is more on the left than the right. It is not free market or free movement. It is very much about govt intervention.
Anas – stop behaving like Asghar Bukhari. People have different opinions on conflicts. Learn to live with it.
PPTV could have a “Daily Show with Jon Stewart” type programme, with Sunny or Rohin (or Kismet, God help us) anchoring it. You’d have satirical items about the latest Asian-angle news stories.
It could be quite funny if you handle it right. Maybe you could rope Sanjeev Bhaskar into presenting it too, he seems to be quite good at that sort of thing.
Sanjeev Bhaskar
Jai have you ever watched the Kumars at no 42?
nyrone, I like your enthusiasm! As I said in emails with the other writers during the summer, I think it’s possible it but takes commitment and resources. Getting the cameras and being able to video it etc (hell at first we could just use something like youtube and embed here) wont be a major problem; I’m sure amongst us we must know a few people prepared to help out.
Time is the big factor in my opinion. In terms of time and organisation it’s stacked like this blog/podcast/videocast. It’s easy to write and link, it’s a bit harder but not much to record a conversation , edit and get it on iTunes. Doing video is quite a bit along that road.
In my view without backing money could be a serious issue too. You can go another way and keep it cheap and cheerful but that still takes time and planning. I wouldn’t want to do one episose or whatever then fuck around for two months trying to get another done. We’d have to set out a timeframe (ie once a day, once a week, twice a month or once a month) and stick to it for it to have impact. And an audience.
That said I don’t know what Sunny (and Sonia?) have in mind/the works?
…
nyrone, I am interested though…
=>”Jai have you ever watched the Kumars at no 42?”
Yes. I’ve also seen more serious programmes where he’s been the host. He has a good speaking voice and assuming he was tidied up a bit, maybe he could be a “CNN anchor on the outside but subversive on the inside”.
*shrug* I don’t know. Who else do you think could be a suitable alternative ?
Art Malik ? I wonder if Sunny & Co could afford the guy’s fees, ha !
People in here have accused me of being obsessed with Israel/Palestine
I can’t begin to understand why, Anas. It is a mystery.
Oh. My. God.
Jai you said it.
GIVE KISMET HARDY HIS OWN TV SHOW!!
That would beat anything.
Kismet TV would be fucking funny. Nothing stopping the dude either, all he needs is a web cam and a YouTube account…
The way Kismet writes, he’d be hilarious with his own show. Remember a short-lived US programme on E4 last year (or was it the year before ?) with this bunny puppet who was a really foul-mouthed, randy New Yorker ? They had lots of celebrity guests.
Well, it could be like that. Except Kismet would be the bunny. On acid.
Katy could be on it too, as his long-suffering female sidekick. Like Roz was on Frazier. Except in this case, Frazier would be trying to constantly boink Roz.
You could call it the Kismet & Katy Show.
Kismet interviewing serious politicians would be great. I’d pay to watch that.
Ali G would be an amateur compared to the hell that Kismet would subject them to…..
I’m laughing my head off thinking about it. The whole thing could be totally brilliant. Jon Stewart with the gloves taken off.
I don’t know if I could stand Kismet chasing all the female crew members inbetween takes.
If this does get off the ground then Rohin could be the ace in the hole. He seems to be stowed under at the moment, but not so stowed he can’t put the whammy on obnoxious beer-monsters;
http://dailyrhino.blogspot.com/
Hello Leon, Hi Captain!
Thanks for the message.
The first obvious thing to do is brainstorm possible ideas and reasons for setting out to do this in the first place. There are already a community of brainy and creative people on PP, I can’t imagine it would be hard to get people that are interested to sit round a table and bounce ideas off each other, or even present ideas for short segments that they could easily and cheaply make in the local area or nearby.
It’s important to establish a direction and purpose for creating something like PPTV, because it will obviously be a time-consuming investment into doing something different and potentially challenging.
How would it differ from everything else? How would it be communicated online? Are we talking user-content, social-provocumentary type-fare, short personal news-story segments of local going’s on’s, short films from a personal viewpoint or simply discussions, talk shows and online video-Blogs? We would need to outline a time to meet, discuss methods, technicalities and timetables.
I personally have a lot of ideas for various segments that could be produced with nothing more than a mini DV/HD camera, a Tripod, a Boom Mic and an Apple Mac with final cut pro to edit.
I’m guessing that there are probably people who could contribute one or more of pieces of equipment in order to get the ball rolling… I have a Mac with Final Cut and am slowly saving up for a Sony HVR Z1 HD Cam, why not assess what other people are willing to offer and contribute towards this effort?
In my experience, film-making is not rocket science but needs a lot of pre-production in initial stages and committed individuals to commit to the creation of segments not out of cash, but sheer passion for the project they are involved in.
If its people to help out that are needed, I assure you there are people willing to help on projects free. Just take a quick look or post on Shooting people or Mandy.com
As mentioned, I would like to get involved at some point, and would be willing to put in time if I felt we could realistically all make something truly fresh and unique…
Maybe create a thread about this in a few days to assess interest?
Then, a meet-up in London to discuss realistic avenues of progression…
Nyrone
nyrone@gmail.com
PPTV? Excellent idea. It might not be question of the quality of production but the quality of content.
A mix of both perhaps …
Funding? Tough one, for it to be sustainable it has generate traffic and Sunny can indicate if that is feasible on the figures he’s seeing now (adjusted for growth of course).
Of course a debate on impartiality would be helped enormously by having two bloggers with similar political views who both write for CIF, and both are from London.
Re: post #39
=>”Remember a short-lived US programme on E4 last year (or was it the year before ?) with this bunny puppet who was a really foul-mouthed, randy New Yorker ? They had lots of celebrity guests.”
I finally remembered the name of the programme: “The Bronx Bunny Show” !!!
It was like an “adult” version of Sesame Street. They even had segments where “today’s number” was demonstrated by pole-dancers contorting themselves into the figures. Quite outrageous.
This would be like Teletubbies compared to the debauchery of the proposed “Kismet & Katy Show”, of course.
I guess I do come across as a bit monomaniacal, to borrow Jagdeep’s term, with my emphasis on the Israel/Palestine conflict, though I don’t think I properly articulate myself in here.
Let me explain:for me writing something is an iterative process, so I usually go through about 20 versions before I have something that is halfway coherent — my brain is a messy gunk of thoughts and half-thoughts at any one time. Therefore my impulsive posting on here perhaps reveals more about me than intended and is far from ideal from a personal perspective.
However I think my reasons for mentioning the conflict in this thread were valid. Iain Dale did say in his broadcast that a lot of the readers of his forum thought the BBC’s coverage had been pro-Hizbollah. A throwaway comment maybe but one that I find staggering. It kinda reveals (as I accept my own rantings reveal my own biases) a deeply biased uncritically pro-Israeli viewpoint (there have been several pro-Israel commentators like Gerald Kaufmann who’ve been willing to criticise Israel’s excesses), but one which it has become broadly acceptable to hold.
I’m writing something for my blog on this specifically commenting on a piece of writing by Melanie Philips but which will also perhaps touch on the double standards regarding terrorism within the broader culture. Hopefully that’ll present a more nuanced point of view than I do in here. But to give a brief rationale for my behaviour.I’m criticised for concentrating on Israel-Palestine, even when it’s not relevant or appropriate, and not similarly criticizing Islamic countries or Pakistan. Although I am Muslim, I don’t really consider myself Pakistani — though it’s in my ethnic background, I don’t have dual nationality out of personal choice and don’t particularly associate myself with or have much personal connection with that country or agree with the policies of its current leader — I am British and so feel obliged to comment on aspects of British and Western culture, as well as on the peculiarities of other British Muslims — which are already given a lot of airing in the media anyway.
And I feel, as do many other commentators — not all Muslim –, that the biggest source of Western double standards is its funding and support of the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, and indeed its treatment in the media and in the culture in general. How many people would get away with praising the Saudi regime and its disgraceful treatment of Christians, or the treatment of minorities in Muslim countries, and it is acceptable with Israel because it is regarded as civilised and democratic (which it is).
It’s not hard to identify the continuation of 19th century Western Imperialism attitudes in this, as the Brichmont article to which I linked in another thread suggested. That is what makes the conflict so important symbolically. Iain Dale’s comment even though it was brief did strike me as worthy of flagging up. Any comparison between BBC coverage and the findings of human rights watch and amnesty international will reveal how preposterous his words were. That he could say such an absurd thing without apparently fearing opprobrium was something I found extremely disturbing.
Phew! I hope I’ve explained myself somewhat.
hang on ..why’s Katy become Kismet’s ‘sidekick’ instead of an important person in her own right!!? there you go katy, that’s marriage for ya! nice innit.
i like the sound of the ‘Katy and Kismet’ show. rather than the other way round..
anas, some interesting points you’ve made.
Sonia, it’s because Kismet’s supposedly the main anchor of the show. Katy is the foxy lady behind the glass screen constantly making sardonic comments and acting as the “straight man” to Kismet’s badmaashi.
ah well. on a more serious note:
“Make some noise now and call for the closure of the Guantánamo Bay.“
Anas
Which Brichmont article you linked to in another thread? Please link here again, thanks.
Anas
I’ve always appreciated your comments, including on the Israel/palestine issue. I’ve thought often it is too easy to drop the issue for the sake of peace and quiet. There is also another matter which has been preying on my mind. There will soon be issues which are rendered undebateable if they are raised by particular people. The accusations of living in denial was a popular one; and I am sure there are plenty of others.
I was going to invite Jagdeep to actually address the issues you raised as opposed to being persuaded to fall into silence.
The vast majority of people are interested and are in despair on where the Israel/Palestine thing is going. Today I received an email which highlights a new experimental weapon being used in Gaza which is killing people and leaving scarring and charring on the inside. These sort of things cannot be ignored.
In a way you having to explain yourself is unnecessary but on PP there is mutual suspicions of motivations which can drive a discussion and often derail it. Rather than following universal rights to derive a response, there is a knee-jerk reaction.
Finally, if you and others did not make their views known on the issues that bother you – then the site will have failed and it will become a bit of a clique.
Do not accept the ‘monomaniacal’ tag. Not from anyone.
Finally, if you and others did not make their views known on the issues that bother you – then the site will have failed and it will become a bit of a clique
Agree, though it doesn’t help if someone raises I/P when it may have nothing to do with the issue being discussed.
The link is http://www.counterpunch.org/bricmont10142006.html
It’s actually the English translation of part of the preface to the French translation of Norman Finkelstein’s Image and Reality.
Thx, Refresh. I just feel that sometimes my comments might lack a bit of subtlety — which it is important to have otherwise you’re liable to fall prey to accusations of anti-semitism or racism when discussing these things.
And sunny, I’m pretty sure that most of the time when I’m discussed I/P in a thread in which it wasn’t directly relevant it’s been in response to a statement or statements about that conflict which I’ve thought were misleading.
when I’ve discussed
Monomaniacal is the correct tag indeed when the issue is raised with monomaniacal regularity especially in contexts that have nothing to do with the issue!
And it shall be repeated as seen fit – after all, if and when someone relates the blockheaded fundamentalism and rise of fascist politics amongst a section of Muslims in Britain and the denial of this phenomenon by people with equal regularity (a very real and substantial issue, this denial!) on subjects unrelated I would say the same thing. Monomania is monomania.
I should also state for the record that, apart from those with an interest in international politics, the whole “grievance” about Israel and Palestine, and the associated issues against “zionism” and Jewish people in general, are of absolutely no interest to the rest of the Asian population who are Sikhs and Hindus.
The constant obsession with “Israel, Jews, Palestine, Israel, Jews, Palestine” is something which the rest of us find mind-boggling, especially when it becomes a preoccupation amongst 2nd-Gen Asian Muslims whose origins basically lie in the same part of the world as us and, again like the rest of us, are born & brought up here in Britain.
I honestly think that the rise in Arab preachers here in the UK and Arab leaders of various British Muslim organisations has wreacked havoc amongst the Asian community here, by playing a part in wrenching Asian Muslims away from the rest of the non-Muslim British Asian community and dragging them into the unholy mess that is Middle-Eastern politics. So you have British-born people whose ancestry lies in the subcontinent now blowing themselves up in Tel Aviv, and a whole bunch of other people jumping on the anti-Jewish/anti-Israel/anti-West bandwagon.
Monomania ? Absolutely. Sometimes it’s justified, sometimes not, but I thought it would be worthwhile mentioning how all this appears to the rest of us. Even more so, now that we are all subject to “guilt-by-association” and are having to pay the price for this frikking obsession with that region of the world.
Annas,
I appreciate how you feel, but take it from me you have not lacked subtlety. Unless I’ve missed something.
You’ve not been provocative, but may have elicited defensive responses.
There is also an underlying problem where comments are judged more by the ‘ethnicity’ or ‘affiliation’ of the contributor, than the content. [See latest developments on Hindu Forum thread].
Tragic I know – but that is probably more damaging to the site than the sincerely held views expressed.
Except of course offensive, racist, anti-semitic comments, but sometimes even these should be seen and then challenged. I believe everyone is open to persuasion to some degree, and the value of the site (and its uniqueness) is that there are such a wide-range of views.
As for the anti-semitic tag, its simple. I as a rule (subject to having time and energy) would challenge anti-racist, anti-semitic, Islamaphobic etc. views.
I do this for myself, and also not to let these views take hold. Its a long road and vigilance is what is needed.
So I look forward to your stuff – and long may it continue.
And I feel, as do many other commentators — not all Muslim –, that the biggest source of Western double standards is its funding and support of the illegal Israeli occupation of Palestine, and indeed its treatment in the media and in the culture in general.
Anas – this para above is the issue. If you’re so worried about Muslims being oppressed – why not take to task the Pakistani govt for the way it treats it people? Why not challenge the Middle Eastern dictatorships?
Your stance on the issue is quite predictable and dry to be honest which is why most non-Muslims see through it.
You’re not obsessed with Pakistan even if your parents come from there. Fine. But then you want to tackle Muslim oppression but, like everyone other arm-chair fundamentalist, you’ve almost been brainwashed into concentrating only on I/P while ignoring atrocities committed by Muslims or on Muslims by other Muslims.
Guess who is currently killing more Muslims every day than anyone else? Suicide bombers and “freedom fighters” in Iraq blowing themselves up. Are you talking about that? I suspect you blame everything there on American presence rather than on inter-religious rivalry.
the whole “grievance†about Israel and Palestine, and the associated issues against “zionism†and Jewish people in general, are of absolutely no interest to the rest of the Asian population who are Sikhs and Hindus.
Speaking for all non Muslim Asians are we?
Excellent post Jai!
It’s a reasonable assertion Leon.
Sunny
In principle I agree. However there are several issues all of which need to be dealt with separately.
The alternative is to say you are not to comment on a specific issue unless you prove yourself on the others.
Actually I agree it is a little overstated. It’s not of no interest. It’s just not of monomaniacal interest.
Jai
Monomania ? Absolutely. Sometimes it’s justified, sometimes not, but I thought it would be worthwhile mentioning how all this appears to the rest of us. Even more so, now that we are all subject to “guilt-by-association†and are having to pay the price for this frikking obsession with that region of the world.
Most Muslims have a view on the Israel/Palestine issue whether they are Arabs or not. It also predates the specifiic events of radicalisation of Southasian Muslims in the UK in 80s/90s. To regard this as monomanical is dismissive on your part. As would be anyone who would be stupid enough to suggest the interest Sikhs have with Sikh politics monomaniacal.
By your definition, Non-Muslims shouldn’t be interested in this issue either. But they are. And in large numbers. So are they also “monomanical”. Some of the best analysis of the Israel/Palestine issue I’ve heard are from people who cannot claim to have any religious/ethnic ties to the region. So your attempt to suggest that people have ties to this geo-political area based on relgious/ethnic ties is wrong. If you’re bored of the issue, you can switch off. But please don’t reduce the issue’s legitimacy on grounds of racial/religious allegiances or attempt to second guess the motivations of Muslims who have an opinion on the matter.
On the vague notion that this posting is on Asians & Tv;
Why when we finally get a Asian/Desi etc (Indira Varma) into a top rating scifi show ( Dr Who sexed up spin off Torchwood) she still has to be stereotyped by putting her in technical support (no doubt in call centre while the the rest of the team are out kicking/showing ass).
Varma’s characters doesn’t even use her real name “Suzie Costello” yer we’ve all used that to get to the first interview. Ms Sukie Kohli !
Sid, it certainly comes across as monomania on these boards when it is raised time and time again on threads which have nothing to do with the topic.
It’s a reasonable assertion Leon.
It’s an unfounded assersation based on an complete lack of evidence.
By the way, what the hell does “monomanical” mean??
Uncleji — hmmm….so Indira Varma is in a new show eh? I shall have to pretend to be a Dr Who spin-off fan so I can enjoy Ms Varma without suspicion from my wife as to my real motivation for watching!
So are lots of other poltical issues Jagdeep. Are we collection of Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis with our individual set of monomania? Or do we have legitimate views of these issues?
Leon, its a very reasonable assertion to say that the average non Muslim Asian doesnt care about Israel Palestine issue with the same degree of fervor that your average Muslim Asian does – this is a very reasonable assumption grounded in qualitative experience. In fact it would be fair to say that most don’t give a shit about it – although of course there are many who do, given how it has become the political g-spot of so many people.
Sid,
Jagdeep accurately summarised my basic premise in post #65. Sunny further in his post #60.
I’m not interested in getting into any kind of long drawn-out argument about this — people’s interests and (if excessive) obsessions are their business — but I thought it’s about time someone finally came out and said this.
Sid – you don’t raise it like a timebomb on unrelated matters. Dont take it personally and get a sense of grievance over it.
Anas, Jai, Refresh, Leon, Sunny, Jagdeep – There are many problems in the UK for us all to deal with, rather than something happening in the Middle East on which we can have very little, if any influence. Apart from anything else, we don’t have a vote in either country.
Frankly, though I will always support the existence of the State of Israel, Anas has managed to make me sigh everytime I see the I/P title appear. There are two reasons. Firstly Anas’s refusal to understand what negotiation means. So for the last time, you can never expect that one side is going to give the other exactly what they want. Both sides must come away elated yet disappointed. Don’t forget what the Treaty of Versailles precpitated. Secondly, the majority of the articles you direct us to are opinions, not empirical evidence. I am not an admirer of Norman Finklestein and I consider Noam Chomsky to be the greatest fraud since the Piltdown Man. That is not empirical evidence, it is my opinion. Do you see the difference.
Finally, Anas, you are young, obviously intelligent and committed to your Muslim identity. You are wasting your talent. I am not expecting you to forget your brothers and sisters in faith in Palestine, but I am recommending you to go out and help your community in Glasgow. I am not saying this as a Jew, but as a Jewish mother and honorary AuntieJi It’s the advice I’d give Katy if she spent all her time obsessed with this dispute, but on the Israeli side. Come on, the sun’s shining, and there’s stuff to do.
Jai
As far as I can see, Sunny’s point #60 and Jagdeep’s remark #65 refer to their conversation with Anas – who may or may not be obsessed with the issue.
But I’m referring to your comment #58, where you broadbrush the entire 2nd-Gen Asian Muslim population in Britain, and not just Anas.
The constant obsession with “Israel, Jews, Palestine, Israel, Jews, Palestine†is something which the rest of us find mind-boggling, especially when it becomes a preoccupation amongst 2nd-Gen Asian Muslims whose origins basically lie in the same part of the world as us and, again like the rest of us, are born & brought up here in Britain.
Chairwoman
I share that last sentiment entirely.
People need to understand the importance of contributing locally.
Anas, it’s an Islamic principle.
Refresh: The alternative is to say you are not to comment on a specific issue unless you prove yourself on the others.
Well if someone spent all their time criticising fanatical Muslims and crazy Muslim organisations, you’re telling me that someone as defensive as you is not going to think they have a bigoted agenda?
Anas doesn’t have to “prove himself”. But it’s quite obvious that right now if you want to focus on who is oppressing Muslims – it is other Muslims. But given people too afraid to criticise their own, his stance is not surprising.
My advice is, take chairwoman’s advice,.
“political g-spot”
I say I don’t agree with all of your argument but it was worth it just for that phrase.
Since Auntieji & I had an arranged marriage I’ve have to google just to find out what a g-spot it.
Apparantly the Israel Palestian issue is just like the g-spot because to quote the beeb website.
“it’s a highly sensitive, highly erotic area that provides hours of pleasure. For others it’s a knobbly bit that, when touched too much, creates an overwhelming sensation of needing a wee. Some women can’t feel any sensation at all while others don’t seem to have one at all.”
I’ve given up looking for mine.
Sid,
That post referred specifically to Anas and others from the same background who may have the same preoccupation to the same degree or even more so. I did not say “all Asian Muslims”. The caveat is implicit — you’re inadvertantly extrapolating it too much.
Just semantics and crossed-wires, mate. I should have been clearer too.
Uncleji – LOL – But true. The Beeb? Goodness.
Leon, its a very reasonable assertion to say that the average non Muslim Asian doesnt care about Israel Palestine issue with the same degree of fervor that your average Muslim Asian does – this is a very reasonable assumption grounded in qualitative experience.
You’re moving the goal posts. He never said average etc he said none as in all…
Ok can you all get back to patronising each other. I am bored. And I’ve got things to do.
Refresh
you’re monomaniacal about these things you have to do since I don’t have to do them. Stick around here and chew some non-controversial, tepid and unfunny issues with us.
There are many problems in the UK for us all to deal with, rather than something happening in the Middle East on which we can have very little, if any influence.
That depends on the person. A young bloke who lived ten minutes from mine was shot and killed by the IDF. He went out there to help palestinions and paid for it with his life. Also we live in a globalised and interdependent world now, what happens here affects elsewhere and in reverse.
The point here isn’t that I/P shouldn’t be discussed it’s that it shouldn’t dominate and derail every thread when it’s not relevant.
its not called Auntie for nothing
errr Leon….I don’t speak for Jai but I’m sure the point he was making was that most dont — and they don’t —- of course as the perennial g-spot issue for so many there will be some who also have their g-spot hit by it — but most couldnt give a shit.
The point here isn’t that I/P shouldn’t be discussed it’s that it shouldn’t dominate and derail every thread when it’s not relevant.
Exactly.
Refresh has a political g-spot
but it making he/she/it go for a piss
the rest of u are locked in the fevered throes of passion.
Yeah but to shout down those that do is just dumbingd-down dumbfuckery. Unless it derails the thread or is OT as Leon says.
Jagdeep, thanks for post #87. You’re correct, that’s exactly the point I was making.
Leon,
=>”He never said average etc he said none as in all…”
Please don’t misquote me. What I said was the following:
=>”apart from those with an interest in international politics,”
Read the first paragraph of #58 again. It’s all stated clearly.
Yeah I agree – because to derail threads like that all the time is dumbfuckery in the first place.
Personally I think that Sunny should open a thread once every ten days of whatever on the issue to relive the tension for those who can’t hold it in. Regular Israel-Palestine thread like the weekend open one.
“The point here isn’t that I/P shouldn’t be discussed it’s that it shouldn’t dominate and derail every thread when it’s not relevant.”
I’ll second that
Jai and Jagdeep
Please don’t kick my country ass, but I seriously think you guys have a monomaniacal obsession with the political issues of 2nd Generation British Muslims.
Well I can only speak for myself, but only on threads where the topic is discussed Sid! And when those ‘political issues’ involve the chance of me being blown up on my train to work, or my daughters or wife or friends and family getting their heads kicked in because of racists backlashes to those ‘political issues’ — then I chat about them because they affect me.
I like my legs, head, arms, and life too much, you see
Jai, still doesn’t track, I know (Asian) people who don’t have an “interest” (that’s a vague term here, what’s an “interest”, reading the news, being an activist, starting a pressure group?) in international politics but still have an awareness in it’s effects.
Yes, I can see how shutting up posters on PP can protect your valuable limbs jagdeep.
Leon, regarding the definition of “interest”, use your common sense
With regards to the rest of your post, I’ve already clarified everything pretty explicitly anyway — and Jagdeep’s parallel comments have been right on the money — so I think there isn’t anything else to say here.
Now now, Sid, I think you’re above the use of strawman arguments.
And yes I’m referring to both #94 and #97.
Sid, discussing 2nd generation Muslim political issues effects me, because an aspect of those politics involves blowing people up on trains and buses. It also means as a Sikh I and my family are at risk from the ripple effects of those politics in terms of a racist backlash. Otherwise, I couldnt give really care less. But its you that brought the issue up. And characterising it as a monomania is demonstrably false.
That is secondary though, and is only a part of the discussion widened from one in which we are both in agreement with – that derailing threads time and again on the issue of Israel Palestine is….unfortunate. Equating that with shutting people up is bogus. Because you hold the same view yourself.
Jai
Strawman? How can I misrepresent your position when I’ve simply commented on what you and Jagdeep have said.
“apart from those with an interest in international politics,â€
The thing is that the during the Israeli-Hellzaboh competition to flatten Lebanon the ratings for the news WENT UP. In that War the Palestians didn’t even have a walk on part, it was Israel, Hellazboh, America, Iran, Syria lovefest. People who didn’t even know where Lebanon was began to take a interest.
Sid, remind me when I deliberately derail non related threads to issues of 2nd generation Muslim politics consistently and egregiously – until then your comparison is bogus. I speak for myself, not Jai. And just talking about the issue when it arises is not enough – I couldnt care less about the issues raised by 2nd Generation Muslim Political issues if they didnt have implications for my being blown apart on a commuter train and the health of my children and all that it means to their future.
Sid,
Yes, strawman.
see post # 100.
Uncleji,
Well, common sense, paaji. If — for example — Iran gets invaded or (hypothetically) threatens to launch missiles at Israel tomorrow, of course viewing figures will go up everywhere !
Same regarding the current events in North Korea.
But there’s a difference in a healthy awareness of global events which potentially impact us all, and actually being excessively fixated on something.
Again, like I said, people from all backgrounds have their own respective foibles and preoccupations, and as far as I’m concerned they’re welcome to them.
Everything has already been amply clarified on this thread so let’s not flog a dead horse. Otherwise we risk being monomaniacal about monomania
Alright I have made a decision — I am not going to comment on the issue again to spare bad blood — I dont want to get into a ruck with Sid whom I respect for his opinions personally, and I will try my best not to mention derailings again in order to spare future persecution complexes.
Peace and Love everyone!
Jai
I think its you and Jagdeep who adopt Straw man.
By suggesting that 2nd G Muslims obsession with the Palestine/Issue is an obsession is statement A.
You then suggest that this issue is of no interest to anyone other than Muslims and therefore redundant to British Asian discourse as on PP is statement B.
The strawman is suggesting B is caused by A.
Leon, regarding the definition of “interestâ€, use your common sense
I am, and my common experience. That said I’m not even sure anyone on this thread knows what they’re argueing for anymore…
Oh great, here comes the teeth grinding and migrane…
Leon – You never lose an opportunity to disagree with me. Well, my turn. You’re wrong. The guy died. He didn’t make a difference to what’s happening out there. The only difference he made is to his family. You may find that an unpleasant truth to face up to, but that’s what how it is.
At no time did I say that it shouldn’t be discussed, but frankly I am suffering from I/P fatigue because it’s brought into everything, and I gather that I am not the only one. Also I am of the opinion that if the whole situation was removed from the spotlight, and people stopped arming both sides, an agreement would be reached. What isn’t needed are supporters cheering from the stands. You will notice that I am pretty much standing back from this. I have nothing further to add. I have said it all.
Don’t worry, I’m just fucking with y’all.
Peace and Happy Weekend!
Peace and Love Sid! That’s not what I said, but Peace and Love to you!
peace and love Juggy D!
but seriously, do you really think opening up a thread on I/P every 10 days is healthy? what does that say about folks here, if they feel they ‘must’ get I/P stuff off their chests each 10 days, as if it is an itch that they need to scratch or something…I don’t like that idea one bit.
Peace and Love to Anas too — your post rebutting Amir the other day was excellent.
nyrone – I’m with you on this
nyrone
Personally, I go to certain other message boards to discuss hot topics if I want to vent when they arent available for discussion elsewhere or I’m just in a pissed off mood about something (mostly on Sikh websites and Movie message boards! Like I can’t believe that there are people who think that LA Confidential was a better example of neo film-noir than Chinatown!! Or that A Fistful of Dynamite is better than The Good The Bad and The Ugly!! These people make me want to kill them!!)
Actually, I’m glad I’m considered monomanaical on this one issue, because I am. I think it is an extremely important issue not only because it directly bears on the regional stability of the Middle East, but because it is something that affects the ongoing stability of the world. It’s not just me who thinks like this, Tony Blair and others have acknowledged, the issue of a fair settlement in Israel/Palestine is fundamental in the ongoing war on (some) terror, especially in the crucial battle for Muslim hearts and minds.
Not only that but the suffering of the Palestinians is immense, and the injustice perpetrated against the Palestinians for nigh on 60 years, including their dispossession, the theft and occupation of their land, their ethnic cleansing, murder, persecution (all contrary to international law) is grievous. I acknowledge that their suffering isn’t unique, and that their persecution and dispossession has echoes in other self-determination movements across the world, and in some cases where it is Muslims who are the brutal perpetrators.
But the crucial issue is the military, ideological and diplomatic support and funding that the occupation receives from the West as well as the skewed cultural perceptions of the conflict in the West and in Western media, which have to be properly addressed because in large part they are unique to that conflict (for example were not bombarded with the words of Chinese apologists for the brutal occupation of Tibet) and because as citizens of Britain and America we bear some measure of democratic complicity in the suffering of the Palestinians — as we do in Iraq and Afghanistan. And of course the issue is of huge symbolic importance to British Muslims and plays a role in radicalising Muslims, which I would have thought would have been of some interest to a site dedicated to British Asians and which is of course itself guilty of being monomanaical on the issue of extremism amongst British Muslims.
What bothers me is why I’m considered monomanaical either because I have some kind of racist grudge against Jews or because I’m for the destruction of the state of Israel — both of which are utterly comprehensively false — or even because I’m only obsessed with injustices against Muslims (BTW, there are Christians in Palestine too) and indifferent to persecutions against Hindus or Christians by Muslims — which again is completely false.
I hope that explains why I feel that comments like Sunny’s are absurd:
If you’re so worried about Muslims being oppressed – why not take to task the Pakistani govt for the way it treats it people? Why not challenge the Middle Eastern dictatorships?
Because I’m not a citizen of Pakistan, I’m not a citizen of the Middle East, I am British, I am part of British society. I do not speak for a military dictatorship in Pakistan, I do not speak for the dictatorships in the Middle East but I have some culpability when it comes to the UK and its actions in the world. And of course I have in interest in how certain things are viewed in the cultural climate I’m in.
You’re not obsessed with Pakistan even if your parents come from there.
What’s the got to do with anything ? I’m not Pakistani except by ethnicity. I barely speak Urdu or Pothari, I don’t have much interest in Asian culture, i.e., bollywood and garish costumes and all that, I’ve only been to Pakistan twice in my life — wasn’t particularly impressed. Why should I be obsessed with it over what’s happening in my country?
But then you want to tackle Muslim oppression but, like everyone other arm-chair fundamentalist, you’ve almost been brainwashed into concentrating only on I/P while ignoring atrocities committed by Muslims or on Muslims by other Muslims.
I’m a fundamentalist now? I don’t ignore atrocities committed by Muslims! Jebus. I have criticised Saudi Arabia and Pakistan on this very forum, I made a comment in another thread about how poor people’s lives are considered worthless in Pakistan, about the proportion of Pakistani government spending on the military compared to its spending on health. Since by and large the defenders of Muslim regimes and terror organisations and their persecutions of other Muslims and of non-Muslims are few and far between on PP, or in the Western Media in general, I don’t get much call to stand up for those oppressed. Basically, I don’t often read people defending suicide bombings in Iraq, or the murder of Shia Muslims in Pakistan in here, so I don’t correct for a non-existent bias. I do try and correct statements about I/P that I feel are wrong though, because I think the conflict is important and there sometimes can be a bias.
I suspect you blame everything there on American presence rather than on inter-religious rivalry.
Emm, well there wouldn’t be this degree and intensity of “inter-religious rivalry” if Iraq hadn’t been invaded, or even if the invasion had been managed properly. Countless anti-war demonstrators pointed this out. And obviously the US/UK presence exacerbates things. On the other hand, read my blog entry on FP and see that I do explicitly criticise Muslim extremists.
RE: Chairwoman’s comments
Finally, Anas, you are young, obviously intelligent and committed to your Muslim identity. You are wasting your talent. I am not expecting you to forget your brothers and sisters in faith in Palestine, but I am recommending you to go out and help your community in Glasgow.
Firstly the two things aren’t incompatible I can both help the Muslim (and overall Asian, and white) community in Glasgow and work towards helping not only Muslims but all inhabitants of Palestine through raising awareness. Secondly, the danger is that a lot of young vulnerable Muslims are incensed by what is happening in Palestine, and if their anger isn’t addressed by mainstream Muslims (who aren’t anti-semitic and want a two state solution) they turn to extremist propaganda and they end up wishing for the destruction of Israel, or are tempted to target jews in Britain. Surely it’s important that instead they read writers like Finkelstein and Chomsky who come from Jewish backgrounds themselves, who argue that there isn’t some evil zionist conspiracy, who argue for a two state solution, and against terrorism on both counts, and who most importantly directly address their perceptions on Israel, than poisonous anti-semitic extremist propaganda.
nyrone:
People need to understand the importance of contributing locally.
Anas, it’s an Islamic principle.
Yes and its incumbent on Muslims to help other Muslims across the world. The two aren’t incompatible
OK, I hope that’s enough self-justification for now!
Leon – You never lose an opportunity to disagree with me. Well, my turn. You’re wrong. The guy died. He didn’t make a difference to what’s happening out there. The only difference he made is to his family. You may find that an unpleasant truth to face up to, but that’s what how it is.
“There was no Palestinian fire and Tom was wearing a bright day-glo jacket as he was rescuing the children.”http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3360149.stm
Perhaps IDF shot and killed those children he was helping after but claiming he didn’t make a difference is disingenuous.
Another example of someone wasting their life:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2856433.stm
“Rachel Corrie, the American killed by an Israeli army bulldozer, was a committed peace activist even before her arrival in the Gaza Strip in 2002.
She was a student at Evergreen State College in her local town of Olympia in Washington State, which is known for its liberal sensibilities.
The 23-year-old arranged peace events there before joining, through local group Olympians for Peace and Solidarity, a Palestinian-led organisation that uses non-violent means to challenge Israeli army tactics in the West Bank and Gaza.”
Anyway the point was your original one that we can’t do much about what happens over there. Those people showed that not everyone is as despairing. All change takes time, years, sometimes hundreds of years.
Onto other matters
Chairwoman
How did become a honary auntieji ?
Would you like to a promotition to “real” auntieji (twirls fulsome moustache in an alluring manner)
Hooray!
Damn you Sid ! There I was typing out a mind-bending counter-example taking your alleged strawman argument in #111 and making a bonfire out of it. Thank God for the “refresh” function.
Whatever the Bengali word for “badmaash” is, go find a mirror and say it to yourself ten times !
Anas, you take a lot of time to write your detailed posts and the I/P issue is obviously something dear to your heart. Nobody here, including myself, is trying to “shout you down”. All everyone is saying is that there’s a proper time and place for all debates. That’s all. Keep up the good work.
Peace, love, and a big bad non-gay hug to everyone.
PS. Hardeep Singh Kohli was excellent on Question Time last night. O kiddaaaan…….
See you folks — have a good weekend, I hope you all find and hit your respective political, religious, artistic, and physical g-spots!
“physical g-spots”
Well your Auntjee never complains
Anas: Because I’m not a citizen of Pakistan, I’m not a citizen of the Middle East, I am British, I am part of British society. I do not speak for a military dictatorship in Pakistan, I do not speak for the dictatorships in the Middle East but I have some culpability when it comes to the UK and its actions in the world.
There are a few contradictions here. Firstly you say you’re interested in issues that affect other Muslims. That’s fine with me because British Jews are concerned about Israel, British Siks about Punjab etc.
I/P is only an issue that destabilises the entire Middle East because there are so many armchair revolutionaries (I won’t use the word fundamentalist) who are obsessed with it. And most of the time they ignore the fact that more Muslims have been killed by other groups or by other Muslims than by Israel in the last two intafadas. What about being more obsessed with Darfur for example?
So you’re excusing that inconsistent stance by saying you’re obsessed by it because the UK govt is involved. But without the UK govt’s involvement one could also say that terrorist organisations such as Hamas, Hizballah or Iran would be closer to destroying Israel completely.
You may not want the destruction of Israel but there are plenty on the British hard-left and in the Arab world who do. Unless they are dealt with, don’t you think Israel will keep feeling paranoid?
This is not to say I’m not concerned with the issue either. I have been a constant critic of Israeli action in Palestine.
But you come across as paranoid because most of the time you only criticise Israel; and because you’re using the UK govt’s involvement selectively. What about countries such as Iran and Syria that fund anti-semitic groups? Are those ok too? Don’t you think they also lead to more instability in the region? Or you’re only going to criticise the UK’s actions and leave everyone else out because you don’t live there?
Jai
Are you homophobic?
“Peace, love, and a big bad non-gay hug to everyone”
Sunny
For goodness sake – drop it will you. Can’t you see there is peace breaking out on this thread?
Or are you monomaniacal too?
Refresh, I caught that too, what’s a gay hug? *confused*
Leon – They were misguided. I could have a long debate about this but this is neither the time nor the place. I might email you about this next week, but I am succumbing to Katy’s bubonic plague, and am spending at least the next 24 hours coughing and sneezing
Jai/
Hardeep Singh Kohli was talking such sense on QT last night…i couldn’t help but wonder, why on earth did he waste his time in that piece of crap ‘magoons’ show on C4?
Salma from Respect and the Lim Deb Rep were also excellent..all in all a GREAT episode of Quesion time…I’m watch it again online right now!
well…after work:(
Juggy!!
You’re a film man too? mail me, I’ll debate movies with you till you jump off a bridge in frustration.
Nyrone – I agree excellent coverage.
I have a lot of time for both Hardeep and Salma.
By the way – please please please debate films with Juggy. It’ll keep his mind of vicarious liability in the war on you know what.
I didn’t think much of last nights show to be honest. Hardeep seems like he wants to have an opinion but isn’t very well briefed, Salma was fairly good (she’s better in real life I’ve found, you really lose the power of her voice/tone on TV) and the others…er…oh yeah that Labour woman was a right bloody tool.
This Week afterwards was more interesting in it’s discussion about multiculturalism. Very nice point made about use mixed race folk in relation to it.
they turn to extremist propaganda and they end up wishing for the destruction of Israel, or are tempted to target jews in Britain. Surely it’s important that instead they read writers like Finkelstein and Chomsky who come from Jewish backgrounds themselves
This is very interesting comment from anas.
Who tempts them to target Jews?
Have you heard people being tempted?
Where does the temptation come from?
Basically anas is saying that Jews can expect to be targetted by Muslims, unless Chomsky/Finklstein are made part of the national curriculum in schools where Muslim children study.
Either he concurs with this, or he is admitting that the situation with Muslims is so dire in the UK, that Jews are at risk of being collectively punished in terrorist attack by them. In both instances, a great darkness prevails. So, those who wonder why Muslims are under scrutiny should understand why: it is because even their ‘moderate’ members accept that it is a fait accompli that they are tempted to kill Jews and engage in terrorism if they don’t get what they want. Presumably the same applies to the whole of society. Fascinating unguarded slip there.
Re: my non-gay hug joke
God almighty, it’s like talking to some of our pedantic, overanalysing, hypersensitive cousins over on SM (some of the commenters, not the bloggers themselves). You guys are on the wrong side of the Atlantic !
A non-gay hug means you keep your hands to yourselves, belt-buckles are at least a foot apart, and ideally you don’t hug at all but just shake hands, reluctantly slap the other guy’s shoulder (firmly but no extended contact), and then gruffly say goodbye while chewing your cheroot and spitting manfully while jumping on your stallion and riding off into the sunset, while a small boy repeatedly shouts your name and a beautiful, tragic widow weeps quietly into her shawl.
Nyrone & Jagdeep:
Films ? Cool. I mentioned I saw The Departed on last weekend’s thread, please check out my post there (and see the movie too if you haven’t done so already).
*Jai finally jumps on his horse and rides off as Sunny plays a mournful tune on his harmonica*
Yes fascinating isn’t it.
Nice try young man.
Brokeback Mountain anyone?
Jai, I think I am beginning to get the picture – something’s latent. Not quite sure what.
Anas,
Leave it. The man’s a fool (or worse).
Chairwoman & Katy – get well soon.
Thank you xx
Leon/ tone? haha, we are obviously looking for different thing here, i couldn’t care less about that side of the presentation. I thought she strung her thoughts together well and spoke at the right points.
As for the Labour woman…trainwreck, I almost felt bad for her, almost….
Jai/ I liked the departed, but NO WAY was it close to the original infernal affairs…and the music in the departed was so cheesy, and there was less tension….and as for Jack Nicholson with his black dildo….what the hell was that about???
I thought the acting from all (bar that clown Alec Baldwin) was excellent. Leo Decaprio looked particulary agitated through the film, which fit the role like a glove.
Yes nyrone lets chat movies sometime….I was hoping to watch the Departed this weekend but I doubt I will get the time….although I’m not sure I want to now that you mention Jack Nicholson and his black dildo??
Awwww Refresh don’t be so grumpy *pats refresh on head*
I can chat movies with Nyrone and still tell the truth about everything else. I am very good at multi-tasking — see, as I type these words my son is showing me his headstand and I’m downloading family photographs — it’s simple!
That’s nice. Say Hi to your son from me.
Refresh, getting a bit defensive now that Sunny and Samuel have asked some troubling questions? You cannot egg Anas on and offer your support on one side, and then plead the conversation gets closed down when difficult questions are posed.
Al-Hack
But Samuel didn’t really, did he? The sweeping generalisations are close to some I hope you would reject. Perhaps I should have just labelled him a troll.
As for Sunny, I thought we were finally getting back to closing down the side-conversation – hopefully then back on-thread. In any case Anas made his own response
Nevertheless – what would you like me to address?
In general – these threads get painfully tedious, after about post #73. Some get there sooner.
I think probably I’ve been a bit too defensive. I mean this is primarily a site centered around discussions of Asians and how Asians view and are viewed in the media. Therefore given that the majority of Asians in this country are Muslims, and a large percentage of them are pretty monomaniacal about the I/P conflict and its representation in the media, it will never be entirely irrelevant to a lot of discussions on the site. The current situation especially in Gaza merits a great deal of attention, not least because of the repercussions it could have on how British Muslims view Britain and America — that is if you’re not convinced by the argument that it is a humanitarian disaster and a war crime with which Britain and America are colluding. Perhaps it is not to the credit of this site that it hasn’t merited its own discussion
It’s incredibly short sighted to focus on Islamic radicalisation and its potential dangers without examining some of its causes. It’s my belief that the I/P conflict has played a chief role in radicalising young Muslims especially in the West. Why? Because Britain and America are perceived as having played a supporting role in the injustices that have occurred in that part of the world.
There are a few contradictions here. Firstly you say you’re interested in issues that affect other Muslims. That’s fine with me because British Jews are concerned about Israel, British Siks about Punjab etc.
Not really, you asked why I wasn’t obsessed with Pakistan – I’m not obsessed with it but of course I am concerned with it: especially with the fact that much of the repression of for example the Baluchis in Pak is being armed by the US. I told you that it was because as a citizen of Britain which is a democratic state I have more of a stake in its actions across the world than the actions of Pakistan.
I/P is only an issue that destabilises the entire Middle East because there are so many armchair revolutionaries (I won’t use the word fundamentalist) who are obsessed with it. And most of the time they ignore the fact that more Muslims have been killed by other groups or by other Muslims than by Israel in the last two intafadas. What about being more obsessed with Darfur for example?
But none of these other groups have had the overwhelming extent of support, military, financial, or diplomatic (the holy trinity) that Israel has had from Britain and America in order to continue its illegal settlement building, its imprisonment and starvation of Gaza’s population. It’s the hypocrisy that galls. It’s not inconsistent to prioritise the wrongs of your home country over that of others.
But without the UK govt’s involvement one could also say that terrorist organisations such as Hamas, Hizballah or Iran would be closer to destroying Israel completely.
With the UK govt’s involvement one could also say that Israel is closer to destroying the prospects of there ever being a viable Palestinian state completely. A country’s involvement in a conflict can either grossly favour one side out of some notion of what its best interests are, or it can take a balanced approach. Guess which ours is.
You may not want the destruction of Israel but there are plenty on the British hard-left and in the Arab world who do. Unless they are dealt with, don’t you think Israel will keep feeling paranoid?
Most of the Arab world does not want the destruction of Israel, most are willing to negotiate for a two state settlement, most Arab states have shown their willingness to do so for decades. Even Iran’s supreme leader, the Ayatollah has said he agrees with the Arab consensus on normalisation with Israel. It’s just that doesn’t get reported.
Or you’re only going to criticise the UK’s actions and leave everyone else out because you don’t live there?
Well I’ve answered this above.
I’m going to discuss this and similar issues on my blog in the near future, so I’ll try to limit any extended discussion in here.
Either he concurs with this, or he is admitting that the situation with Muslims is so dire in the UK, that Jews are at risk of being collectively punished in terrorist attack by them. In both instances, a great darkness prevails.So, those who wonder why Muslims are under scrutiny should understand why: it is because even their ‘moderate’ members accept that it is a fait accompli that they are tempted to kill Jews and engage in terrorism if they don’t get what they want. Presumably the same applies to the whole of society. Fascinating unguarded slip there.
It’s quite not the argument I’m making but even if it was, similar arguments have been made re:Muslims being at risk from the general population after terrorist attacks by Islamic terrorists. The fact is that a number of young Muslims are being radicalised and they are motivated by what they see as the West’s collusion in Israeli terrorism. Just as ‘moderate’ non-Muslims accept as a fait accompli that Muslims will be targeted after events such as 7/7, or Straw’s veil comments, indeed some may be “tempted to kill Jews and engage in terrorism”, a real risk as we saw with the BNP chemical’s case. Nice bit of double standards there.
Let me fix up that last post a bit:
It’s quite not the argument I’m making but even if it was, similar arguments have been made re:Muslims being at risk from the general population after terrorist attacks by Islamic terrorists.
Plenty of ‘moderate’ non-Muslims accept as a fait accompli that Muslims will be targeted after events such as 7/7, or Straw’s veil comments, indeed some may be “tempted to kill Muslims and engage in terrorismâ€, a real risk as we saw with the BNP chemical’s case. Over the past few days we’ve had mosques firebombed, Imam’s assaulted while actually in mosques, Muslim women assaulted in the streets for wearing veils.
Do the actions of a small minority of non-Muslims and the danger they pose to the Muslim community mean that the situation with non-Muslim is extremely dire, that a great darkness has prevailed?
The fact is that a small number of young Muslims are being radicalised and they are motivated by what they see as the West’s collusion in Israeli terrorism. No one disputes that fact, not ‘moderate’ Muslims, not ‘moderate’non-Muslims.
The problem with then placing the whole Muslim community under scrutiny — unfairly since the vast majority are peaceful, condemn terrorism and want to integrate — including those you label as ‘moderate’ (an insinuation that there is no such thing I suppose), is that it risks being counterproductive, it risks alienating the majority of Muslims without whom the task of locating and isolating extremists and fanatics becomes hopeless.
BTW, the idea that Finkelstein and Chomsky should be placed on Muslim school curriculums is a great one, but I think that Chomsky especially should be on ALL school curriculums.
I think that Chomsky especially should be on ALL school curriculums.
Agreed.
It’s great that this thread is on the recently popular, especially as most of it is devoted to a digression.
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