But I still have difficulty actually understanding what you’re accusing me of.

Now would you like it if people then took that to mean all Muslims and say they’re in a bid to take over and convert all British society? That they are a fifth column to be feared? It’s absurd.

You seem to have a blind-spot over this. Pointing out conspiracy theories about others while wilfully ignoring how it may apply to Muslims too. Finkelstein aside – at least he is criticising his “own side”. You’re not. You’re just using his writings for your own objectives while ignoring how it applies in general and how you’re contributing towards a climate of fear and hatred.

Quote:
“In the category of inherently anti-Semitic pronouncements the report includes “drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis” (only comparisons of contemporary Arab policy to that of the Nazis are permissible) and “theories about Jewish or Zionist influence on American foreign policy” (even if Jewish and Zionist organizations boast about this influence).”

“The pro-Israeli lobby has got its grips on the western world, its financial grips. I think they have probably got a certain grip on our party”

Had someone said this in the 1930s you’d almost automatically assume that they were on the extreme right or indoctrinated racialists, yet in the post WW2 period overt manifestations of anti-Jewish racism were frowned upon in “polite society” (normally comprising many liberals) so we’ve managed to get to the 21st century with the persistence of these nasty and strange views. Which is either rather telling of humanity or of the enduring phenomena known as antisemitism, depending on how you look at it

Tonge is a politician, words are her tool and her craft, so for her to invoke anti-Semitic imagery, which would have been at home in 1930s Germany, is either:

chronically stupid,
politically inept
or revealing of some subconscious thought process

I’m not sure which, but it is striking that the Parliamentary report on anti-Semitism remarked how such vile language and imagery was coming into the mainstream political discourse, almost anticipating her comments?

I wonder if Baroness Tonge read the report?

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=10881

I think it’s time supporters of Israel in the UK and US started to realise that policies like these as well as being completely immoral and illegal, will very likely prove destructive to Israel in the long run.

http://www.counterpunch.org/bricmont10142006.html

I doubt that

=>”And no: I don’t care if I’m being rude to you, because you’re always rude to me – ALWAYS.”

With all due respect, these things are a two-way street; being a jerk towards someone who you perceive as behaving like a jerk towards you doesn’t elevate the situation. It risks undermining your own moral credibility and triggering an on-going spiral of insult vs counter-insult.

Look at it this way. Participating in these forums is like having a debate with a bunch of people in someone else’s living room. As the host (and the owner of this “house”), it’s Sunny’s job to create an amicable, constructive environment where everyone concerned can discuss matters “safely”, and it’s also his role to be fair-minded, to ensure that nobody harasses anyone else and that the discussion is kept reasonably on-track. During the past few months especially, I think Sunny’s done an outstanding job (certainly compared with some other Asian blogs/internet discussion forums I could mention), and he’s been very restrained indeed towards you, along with various inflammatory types who have occasionally seen fit to grace us with their presence.

It’s a learning experience for everyone concerned. Sunny continously learns how to be a good “master of ceremonies”, and the rest of us polish our skills in engaging in constructive, hopefully informative discussions without matters degenerating into personal insults, timewasting & irritating mind-games, online “social politics” (something Asians in particular excel at, unfortunately), threadjacking and the propagation of nefarious personal agendas.

While Sunny does his best to ensure that he’s a good host, it’s also our job to be good houseguests. Along with the usual pleasantries and courtesies, this also means that we do not take advantage of our host’s good nature, particularly if he deems it fit to allow us to continue participating in the “chat” in his home, rather than rapidly throwing us out of the front door if anyone disagrees with him. Hurling verbal abuse at the host is very counterproductive indeed, unless one is deliberately trying to get oneself kicked out. I’ve disagreed with Sunny too on occasion, as most regulars on PP will know — but there are ways of getting one’s point across firmly, authoritatively and politely, without resorting to personal attacks and strawman arguments.

So both parties concerned need to do their best to “play fair”. Perhaps both you and Sunny should metaphorically “shake hands”, both apologise to each other for any rudeness or direct attacks which you may have deliberately or inadvertantly engaged in, and make a firm joint decision to henceforth endeavour to keep your mutual dialogue civilised in future.

Chickens come home to roost. You reap what you sow.

‘Amir, more conspiracy theories. Broken record etc, cannot be asked to engage’

You’re a real jellyfish. No principles, no morals, no background knowledge in anything that you discuss. And, furthermore, considering that you’re 29-yrs-old, you’re poorly read and completely ignorant of the working-class community, their history, their culture; the way that they feel about certain issues. You haven’t a clue, have you?

To be honest, it amazes me that you’re a full-time journalist. I know lots and lots and lots of Asian people – graduates in History, Politics, and English Literature – who’re infinitely more talented than yourself; and yet, like me, they have had to do backbreaking jobs with little pay and zero prospect of promotion. Funny that, eh? I guess it’s ‘who you know’.

Amir

Katy – sorry I meant why the personal vendetta. I just his language very odd.

(I) “So a man who believes the Mexicans are coming over the USA and then waiting for the day they can reclaim Texas and other parts of South America for Mexico is backed up by demographers and professional statisticians! Wow. impressive.”

Let me quote a brief passage in Pat Buchanan’s State of Emergency: “In 1960, there were perhaps 5 million Asians and Hispanics in the United States. Today, there are 57 million…this is not immigration…this is an invasion.” The re-colonisation of Texas can be achieved through demographic growth and steady conversion of the local politics to suit that of Mexico’s. Many Mexican immigrants have a revanchist view on territories lost to the United States in the Mexican-American War and that their high birthrates threaten the social cohesion of certain parts of the country. Indeed, one of the recurring themes in Pat Buchanan’s work is that various types of nativism, cultural loyalties, and blood ties shape world events more strongly than any of us suspect.

Here’s another thing you said:

(II) “It sounds almost like Melanie Phillips seeing everything as the death of western civilisation or the Islamicisation of Britain.”

Why is it a conspiracy? Is everything a conspiracy to you Sunny? Criticism of Islam, jokes about Islam, are rapidly becoming taboo, even legally restricted (Michelle Malkin has even been banned off YouTube). Yet Moslems have total freedom to say what they like about the rest of us. Quietly, the Civil Service, the police and the education system (and many big banks and businesses) have already begun to adapt themselves to the idea of an Islamised Britain. The demand for Sharia Law will be made with increasing force as the Moslem population grows and the Moslem vote – already decisive in many constituencies – grows with it, because all the major parties are contemptuous towards our Christian heritage. The number of Moslem women wearing headscarves, or total veils, has risen sharply in the past few years. Large new mosques have appeared on many skylines. Many more are being built. This is happening now, here. Our Government is helping it. You can dismiss it as a ‘conspiracy theory’ if you like, but for those of us who live in the real world, it is worth maintaining a cautious scepticism.

I have great sympathy for much of what Islam says, and I display an unusual fondness for Moslems in general (one of my blogging ambitions is to have a theological debate with the irrepressible Ali Eteraz). But the thing is: I don’t want to live in an Islamic Britain. No way. Does that make me an ‘Islamophobe’? I doubt it. As far as I’m concerned, it makes me a British patriot and a conscientious Christian. There are things about Islamic societies that I don’t like, just as there are things about Socialism, Communism, or Liberalism I don’t like. It’s a personal and moral preference, and it is shared by billions of devout Christians.

Ignore it at your peril.

Amir

Sure. but I don’t see why, given Ming Campbell has rebuked her strongly, this PPC has to run his own secret campaign.

Jewish, West-Indian and Asian immigration have changed the cultural complexion of this country for the better. Fact.

On the issue of anti-Semitism, it is interesting to note that the increase in anti-Semitic abuse and attacks has occurred in those areas which have seen the highest influx of rural, Kashmiri immigrants. Coincidence? Nope. I don’t think so.

More credulous bollocks, especially when you take this into consideration:

The Board of Deputies of British Jews submitted evidence to the inquiry that anti-Semitism in Britain was at its worst level.

The attackers, when visible, are from across society, he said. “When it’s verbal abuse, it’s just ordinary people in the street, from middle-class women to working-class men. All colours and backgrounds. We hardly ever see incidents involving the classic neo-Nazi skinhead. Muslims are over-represented.”

In other words, antisemitic attacks are now carried out by people of all races and class, but its still largely inflicted by white people. Especially those who have absorbed a literal interpretation of the kind of oily bigotry espoused by the likes Pat Buchanan and his particular brand of respectable/aseptic antisemitism.

Yes, in the sense that you wouldn’t be able to force him to change his mind, because our democracy works on the basis that once you’ve elected someone you’re pretty much at the mercy of their loyalty to their mandate. But no one would say that you wouldn’t be entitled to pursue any legal and proper channel available to you to persuade him to change his mind, which is what pretty much everyone is trying to do here

Amir – thank you, I am liking my bigshot lawyer status