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  • Technorati: graph / links

    Defend Jenny Tonge?


    by Sunny on 16th October, 2006 at 4:54 am    

    The Lib Dem peer Jenny Tonge has been quite rightly rebuked on Friday over comments she had earlier made that clearly went into the traditional ‘Jews control the world’ conspiracy theory territory, traditionally used by anti-semites.

    It turns out there is a campaign to remove her from the Lib Dem bench in the House of Lords. In response a Save Jenny campaign has been started. I believe Susanne is quite right to defend Tonge’s right to be a conspiracy theory nut.

    Over at Liberal Review Peter makes some good points too, not in her support. Jenny Tonge should apologise and her comments are unacceptable. Conspiracy nuts really annoy me though so I’m still somewhat undecided on this issue (re-thinking after the comment I made on LR). Should public servants be allowed such idiocy?



      |     |   Add to del.icio.us   |   Share on Facebook   |   Filed in: Party politics, Race politics




    110 Comments below   |  

    1. TimOsman — on 16th October, 2006 at 7:53 am  

      Anyone who reads this will soon understand how and what is behind all the Muslim hate.

      http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/jewishp/gbmedia/update.htm > no doubt you’ll call this anti semetic when really it’s only pointing out some facts.

    2. Sahil — on 16th October, 2006 at 9:36 am  

      Twat.

    3. TimOsman — on 16th October, 2006 at 9:52 am  

      Nice of you to engage with the facts, turd.

    4. Ravi Naik — on 16th October, 2006 at 9:58 am  

      “Anyone who reads this will soon understand how and what is behind all the Muslim hate.”

      Yes, I agree with you: radio islam and other islamist sites promote hate.

      “you’ll call this anti semetic when really it’s only pointing out some facts.”

      It is not just anti-semitic, it is the sort of material you could find unedited in any neo-nazi site. Here is what the link you provided says:

      “With this media, they are uniformly, deliberately, systematically, constantly and intensely promoting both the transformation and permanent destruction of Britain into a multiracial, “multicultural” state”

      Enough said!

    5. nyrone — on 16th October, 2006 at 10:04 am  

      anyone gonna do a story on this?

      http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,,1923325,00.html

      un-fucking believable….

    6. Refresh — on 16th October, 2006 at 10:08 am  

      TimOsman

      The whole venture is anti-semitic filth and has nothing to do with Islam.

    7. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 10:11 am  

      TimOsman - I have read your racist link. Frankly, as a Jewess as your link offensively puts it, I am fed up with having to take the slanders handed out by people of your ilk with a smile on my face. Even though there are some Jewish people high in the television heirarchy, there is hardly a Jewish agenda. There are no Jewish characters in soap operas, and very few Jewish presenters and reporters.

      I am a middle aged woman, and my fellow Picklers know that I am extremely reluctant to resort to using certain words in the current venicular, but in your case, I am going to make an extremely rare exception.

      Why don’t you just FUCK OFF!

    8. Al-Hack — on 16th October, 2006 at 10:12 am  

      Tim - You’ll notice how Sunny says he hates conspiracy nuts. That includes you. fuck off.

    9. Al-Hack — on 16th October, 2006 at 10:14 am  

      Back on topic, I sympathise with Susanne’s views. I reckon.

    10. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 10:18 am  

      Back on topic, it’s not her sympathy with Palestinians that’s a problem here, but her conspiracy theories, which are only stated more politely than those of TimOsman’s link. It’s her lack of good sense in voicing them openly that makes her a poor candidate for front bench politics.

    11. Leon — on 16th October, 2006 at 10:19 am  

      Should public servants be allowed such idiocy?

      Depends where you want to draw the line. What she said was offensive [to minority group] but is it worse than any of the actions those in power have taken?

      I think a little perspective is needed these days; things are getting a little lunatic (and yeah I’ve about had enough of the veil thing now too…).

    12. Don — on 16th October, 2006 at 10:23 am  

      ‘the suspected Jew ‘

      How could anyone take that as anti-semitic?

      As for the always embarrassing Tonge, I don’t think it is too authoritarian to insist that, if she persists in making public statements which are “contrary to the principles of the party”, she should find a party with which she is in tune, or sit as an independant.

      ‘Jews control the media’ doesn’t really count as expressing her views on the situation in the Middle East.

    13. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 10:27 am  

      Indeed, a little perspective is needed these days, and if you allow Lady Tonge to express her views without adequate censure, then a little way down the line you get a public figure expressing them in a similar way to Mr Osman’s disgusting link.

      And after the Jews it will be open season on everyone else. That’s the perspective.

    14. Refresh — on 16th October, 2006 at 10:42 am  

      Chairwoman,

      I think people are missing the point:

      “And after the Jews it will be open season on everyone else. That’s the perspective.”

      Watching the hilarious ‘Mock The Week’, one really funny panelist called muslims ‘mozzies’, and not in a derogatory way.

      And my thought jumped to ‘yids’. I fear that is where we are headed.

    15. Leon — on 16th October, 2006 at 11:01 am  

      And after the Jews it will be open season on everyone else. That’s the perspective.

      I don’t agree you have it the right way round but can’t see the value into getting into the “my minority is more oppressed than your minority” nonsense…

    16. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 11:12 am  

      Refresh - It really is a case of how it’s said, isn’t it? We call ourselves ‘Yidden’ (or at least Ashkenazis do bananabrain). It’s what we are :-)

      Leon - I really wasn’t going down the ‘my minority is more oppressed than yours’ road. You can substitute whichever minority you choose and the result would be the same.

    17. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 11:31 am  

      She has the right to be a conspiracy theory nut, and the Lib Dems have the right not to have her in their party. This isnt a free speech issue. She is free to say what she likes, but if it contradicts and is done under the name of the Lib Dems, they have the right to kick her out. This has nothing to do with free speech. Same as if one of my mates gets lairy at my house, I will ask him to leave. Tonge says idiotic things drenched in classical anti semitic conspiracy theorising and it is a credit to the Lib Dems that they are taking the step of kicking her out of their party. She will still be free to say what she wants.

    18. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 11:36 am  

      Nyrone — it is important that universities get a grip on extremist groups because they do make life unpleasent for non Muslim students and there are people causing trouble - that is a fact. However, if their manner of doing that is to take note when ‘Asian looking people’ are spending time on the computer, then they are f*%@ed to begin with!

    19. Don — on 16th October, 2006 at 12:11 pm  

      Jagdeep,

      Completely agree with your last two comments.

    20. DickTurpin — on 16th October, 2006 at 1:42 pm  

      In Britain, less than 0.5% of the population are Jewish, yet they dominate political lobbying. Yet if you discuss this your immediately labelled anti semetic yet if I ranted on about Muslim women wearing black bags on their head I’d get offered a job at the Times.

    21. VT Dasgupta — on 16th October, 2006 at 1:47 pm  

      Gavin Stollar of the Lib Dem Friends of Israel said;

      “In the coming days and weeks we will work closely with colleagues inside the Party to ensure every avenue is explored towards removing Baroness Tonge from the Liberal Democrat benches in the House of Lords.”

      Confirming suspicions of not only the existence of a sinister group, but Gavins confidence could only have come from knowing that such a powerful lobby have wielded results before.

      Chairwoman – “Even though there are some Jewish people high in the television heirarchy, there is hardly a Jewish agenda.”

      CW – tell gavin that ! so you accept that jews have a disproportionatly high influence over media – expect gavin to be quoted “in the coming days and weeks”. You must also accept that being part of any group, means that your worldview is shaped by your identity i.e. being jewess. I doubt jews secretly meetup, but their viewpoint is slated towards a certain agenda.

      “Palestinians that’s a problem here, but her conspiracy theories”
      Conspiracy theories about jews come from their success rate in achieving their objectives. I’ll bet you my mortage Tonge’s days are numbered.It is the unexplainable aspect of things going a certain way.

      CW –“Lady Tonge to express her views without adequate censure”
      I bet you “certain” people would have thought this was a freedom of speech issue if it was the muslims. There HAS been “adequate censure” , Ming Campbell said “I have written to Baroness Tonge dissociating myself and the party from her deeply offensive remarks and what I believe to be their clear antisemitic connotations.” – Clear stating his and the party’s viewpoint. But Gavin and his folks at LibDem friends of Israel want BLOOD.

      Ming also said: “I have asked for a review of the disciplinary powers available to the Liberal Democrat leaders in both the House of Lords and Commons” -Now who’s taking bets.

    22. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 1:49 pm  

      Mr Turpin or as I suspect Mr Osman, it’s the same old rubbish isn’t it?

      May I suggest you take a course in grammar and spelling and then put your head firmly up your fundament.

    23. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 1:55 pm  

      I think the rantings and oral defecations of VT Dasgupta (Dasgupta?? A Hindu Anti Semite?? WTF??? unless….) should be preseved as an example of the risible spectacle of the pathology of his racist species.

      P.A.T.H.E.T.I.C

    24. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 2:00 pm  

      Jagdeep - I’m astonished.

    25. bananabrain — on 16th October, 2006 at 2:04 pm  

      terrible isn’t it, those sinister groups, the “lib dem friends of israel”, the “conservative friends of israel” and, of course, the most sinister of all, the “labour friends of israel.” so sinister they have their own websites!!!

      http://www.cfoi.co.uk/
      http://www.lfi.org.uk/

      well, the libdems don’t, but you can certainly find out who is involved:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democrat_Friends_of_Israel

      i note that the LDFOI include in their aims such heinous and underhand objectives as “the establishment of a viable Palestinian state”. tch tch, terrible isn’t it, these secret jewish conspiracies that go on behind the scenes?

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    26. Leon — on 16th October, 2006 at 2:11 pm  

      There is a pro Israel lobby at work in this country just as there is a pro GM food lobby, a pro Muslim lobby and a pro oil lobby. It’s part of our current “democratic” set up that various interest groups (whether they be corporate, political or ethnic/religious) will organise to influence what happens and is permissable in our country.

      Do a test, make some very outspoken critical comment about either:

      Israel
      Muslims
      Oil
      Black people

      And watch the responses. It’ll be proportionate to your standing and influence, and the resources and level of organisation of the respective lobby/interest group…

    27. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 2:15 pm  

      In what way proportionate? Does more people agreeing with the critical remark denote greater standing and influence, or vice versa. I’m not being facetious, I’d like to try it, but need more information.

    28. Leon — on 16th October, 2006 at 2:23 pm  

      Proportionate to “to your standing and influence, and the resources and level of organisation of the respective lobby/interest group…”.

      For example, if I make a public statement (on here, my blog or in some local newspaper) criticising/insulting a particular group, the response will be different that if someone famous or a MP did.

      The higher the news value/effect on public opinion the higher the response to counter the influence of the original critisism/insult with the caveat above; it depends on the resources and how well organised a lobby/group is.

    29. VT Dasgupta — on 16th October, 2006 at 2:26 pm  

      Dear Bananabrain

      Does having a website make them less sinister ? bnp have a website, does that make them more cuddly?

      The friends of Israel websites don’t state which MP is a member. They only have list of “officers”. >“include in their aims such heinous and underhand objectives as “the establishment of a viable Palestinian state” -That is what in politics you call – covering your backs. Do any of these organisations have a history of defending the Palestinians – NO, but yes, they don’t call for transfer to achieve “greater Israel” .
      But can you please tell me all the mp’s that are members. cfoi claims 80% of tory mp’s are members. Sheeesh – more on cfoi here . Can you please also tell me who funds these organisations – where the money comes from and where it goes?

      The finer details are never revealed. Much like the bnp activist. Of course they have a nice websites.

    30. Don — on 16th October, 2006 at 2:38 pm  

      VT,

      Clearly supporting Israel is something you disagree with, but why is it ’sinister’?

    31. bananabrain — on 16th October, 2006 at 2:40 pm  

      this, i suppose takes us back to the bnp being big supporters of israel, discussed in another thread last week.

      “got a nice website?”
      “erm….yes…?”
      “AHA!!! you well-funded, bnp-zionist bastard!!!!”

      of course one cannot be a “friend of israel” without being constitutionally unable to “defend the palestinians”, whatever that means *rolls eyes*

      and, no, vt dasgupta, i can’t tell you how they’re funded, any more than you can tell me how the “stop the war coalition” is funded.

      this is because i’m not their accountant. i’m not anyone’s accountant. i have absolutely no idea how political parties and NGOs are funded - which, obviously, means they are all sinister, or perhaps just the pro-israel ones are.

      in fact, i can’t even tell you how virgin are funded because they’re not a public company. obviously that makes them sinister too. no trains to manchester for you, chummy.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    32. bananabrain — on 16th October, 2006 at 2:45 pm  

      in fact, if i was going to be facetious, i would quote donald rumsfeld’s maxim that “absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence”.

      or alternatively you could just watch that episode of “south park” which addresses conspiracy theorists so effectively…

      http://www.thepoliticalpitbull.com/2006/10/video_south_park_slams_911_tru_1.php

      (incidentally, i’m not necessarily endorsing anything i link to…)

      either way, what jagdeep said on #s 17-18 is correct -she can say what she wants, just like david icke, but she is not necessarily entitled to do so and remain a lib dem at the same time. that is a matter for them. personally, i’m more interested in whether she is retained as a board member of christian aid.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    33. Sid A — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:15 pm  

      I’d rather live in Israel than gheto hell.

    34. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:22 pm  

      I think he means ‘Ghetto Boy’ — but he spelt ghetto wrong. You know, ghetto boy, dangerous gangsta from da ghetto and all that…

      Wonder if he knows the origin of the word ‘ghetto’?? Hmmm…..

    35. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:23 pm  

      See, people can stink up threads so easily. Havent really been any good discussions to beat time today. Sigh…

    36. Leon — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:24 pm  

      “And his momma cried, and another little baby boy was born in the ghetto…”

    37. Jai — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:26 pm  

      “Ghetto Heaven”.

      Now there was a nice song. Ahh, memories. Early 90s and all that.

      Anyway, back to Gheto Boy’s superbly articulated arguments. Carry on.

    38. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:27 pm  

      Ah Jagdeep, I thought that might be the case. Not then a resident of the beautiful area called Ghetto in Venice which became the Jewish Quarter and whose name became synonymous with areas that Jews lived in everywhere?

    39. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:28 pm  

      Dammit Leon, I was going to quote from that one!

    40. VT Dasgupta — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:29 pm  

      Don,
      Read more carefully. In relation to Gavin Stollar’s, who intends to “work closely with colleagues inside the Party to ensure every avenue is explored towards removing Baroness Tonge” - suggesting there is a secret group with sinister intentions (to get someone sacked), that such a group’s viewpoint will prevail over other members of the party.

      In relations to bananabrain, he suggested by having a website, they are not hiding anything and I pointed out that actually a lot of information is missing especially about membership and funding. They remain a secretive organisations.

      Lobby groups in UK are not scrutanised, read about the Conservative party’s funding from lobby group called “Midlands Industrial Council”.

      I’m not anti-Semitic and I don’t consider jews to be sinister. Jews are successful.

      90% of jews supported Israel in recent Lebanon war. This brings me back to my earlier point, someone’s identity gives them a predetermined viewpoint in politics, and it is not anti-semitic to suggest someone might be predisposed to view Israel favourably.

      Bananabrain,
      I never said anything about bnp supporting Zionists. Did you know Leader of Epping Forest Council is Jewish? Ho ho

      Political parties and NGO’s accounts are published and details can be obtained at the Electoral Commission/ Charity Commission. No, friends of Israel groups don’t publish accounts. Party funding details are online – Lord Levi and chums made significant contributions to labour : keeping mouth shut about Lebanon war - worth every penny. I want greater clarity about lobby groups overall.

      CW “I trust the State of Israel, because there I wouldn’t have to live with sick extremists like you”
      - Israel breads hate ! if you want Israel, then live it. it’s a shame you feel that way. Maybe If we all left out baggage at the checkin desk we would have less problem. Why cling on to inherited shackles . free your self and your mind. your a slave to the state of your mind.

    41. VT Dasgupta — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:33 pm  

      sorry, meant to say bnp’s leader on the epping forest council is jewish.

    42. Leon — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:33 pm  

      Dammit Leon, I was going to quote from that one!

      :D

    43. Anas — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:42 pm  

      90% of jews supported Israel in recent Lebanon war

      Wow, 90% of a British faith/ethnic community supported a gratuitous act of large-scale terrorism — and it wasn’t the Muslims?!?!?

    44. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:47 pm  

      VT Dasgupta - I was waiting for someone to tell me to go to Israel. I didn’t pass the check in desk on my way here, like my parents, some of my grandparents, some of my great, great-great, and great-great-great grandparents. So what baggage do you want me to leave behind? Israel breads hate? With or without butter?

    45. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:48 pm  

      Anas - I do keep saying we have more in common than we don’t.

    46. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 3:58 pm  

      Yeah! Go back to where you come from, you dirty Jews!!

      TWAT…

    47. Anas — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:07 pm  

      Yeah! Go back to where you come from, you dirty Jews!!

      TWAT…

      Duh!? Were you referring to what I said?

    48. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:09 pm  

      Uhh…no dude. Read above.

    49. Don — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:12 pm  

      VT,

      Don’t tell me to read more carefully. My reading skills are excellent, I even managed to maneuver my way through your fractured prose.

      ‘I’m not anti-Semitic’
      ‘Did you know Leader of Epping Forest Council is Jewish? Ho ho’

      Listen to yourself, you twerp.

    50. Anas — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:13 pm  

      Phew

    51. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:17 pm  

      I’ve so had enough of all this crap, you have no idea. I’m fed up with defending myself, my right to exists, the state of Israel, it’s right to exist. I just can’t make the effort to try to persuade and negotiate any more.

      On Saturday I caught the end of a programme on Channel 4 called ‘Hitler’s Holocaust’. Obviously I’ve been brought up with it ever since my father took me to the cinema when I was a child to see recently released newsreel of inmates at Belsen, and when he explained, and I cried, he basically said ‘Toughen up’.

      What I saw in this program really brought it home to me, more than seeing the names of grandparents’ brothers and sisters as killed at Treblinka on the Yad Vashem website. They showed a contempory film from Nazi archives of the rounding up of Jews from a village in the Ukraine. First they separated the men from the women and children. Then the women from the children. One toddler kept running to his mother and having to be dragged away by a German soldier. Then they marched the men off, over a bridge. Now here’s the bit that got to me. As the Jewish men were marched over the bridge, their dogs ran after them, and walked off with them. And they looked keen and perky like dogs going for a walk with their owners do. And I looked at my dog, who would do the same and I cried. I cried a lot.
      And I decided that I wouldn’t take any more of this antisemitic crap from anyone. Nor am I going to allow Israel to be equated with Nazi Germany any more. I’m not going to pretend for one minute that being a Palestinian on the West Bank is good, but it’s a whole lot better than being a Jew under German occupation ever was. If anybody here believes that Israelis are exterminating Palestinians by the oven load purely on the grounds of their ethnicity, show me the proof.

      By the way, did you know that the Nazis banned Jews from keeping Aryan goldfish and budgies? No, nor did I. What would they have done about my German Shepherd Dog.

    52. Don — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:17 pm  

      Even with the correction, still a twerp.

    53. nyrone — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:22 pm  

      while we ‘talk’ about whether some comments made by an MP were outrageous…and while we get ‘offended’ by words…23 Palestinians have been killed in the last 5 days including a 10-year boy and a pregnant mother.

      Perhaps it’s easier to discuss the nature of personal offence, than discuss the real-life genocidal activities of that open-air prison..Palestine.

      I sometimes think that people find it easier to get offended by verbal attacks than undescribeable acts of state terror. Maybe we feel we have some power to change verbal attacks, but none to change the reality of conflict.

    54. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:25 pm  

      Aryan goldfish and budgies? Weird.

      Well said Chairwoman indeed well said the rest of your post.

    55. Amir — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:26 pm  

      Nyrone,

      ‘23 Palestinians have been killed in the last 5 days including a 10-year boy and a pregnant mother.’

      How many of the 23 were noncombatants; do you know? Hamas is still firing rockets into Israel - fact.

    56. Don — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:27 pm  

      Nyrone,

      One issue doesn’t preclude discussion of another.

      And genocide is a word to be used with care.

    57. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:28 pm  

      yeah — genocidal prison — yeah

      Anyway…..anyone who thinks words dont matter and getting worked up about words shouldnt get too upset about verbal assaults on Muslims and….whoops

    58. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:28 pm  

      Nyrone - Genocide means that one group systematically destroys another based solely on their ethnicity. That is not happening in the occupied territories. I agree that the death of 23 people is appalling. I’m not making excuses. I don’t know the facts. But it is not genocide.

      Jagdeep - Thank you.

    59. Vikrant — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:41 pm  

      “VT Dasgupta”, why hide behind a Hindu name?

    60. Katy Newton — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:46 pm  

      Sunny, if one of the PP writers asked you if they could publish a post about how the Jews control the media and secretly run the world, you’d say no. Not because they weren’t entitled to say it, but because you don’t want Pickled Politics to be associated with conspiracy theories and antisemitism.

      That’s what the people who want Jenny Tonge removed from the Lib Dem benches are doing. They aren’t saying she can’t have a platform. They’re saying that she can’t use thatplatform. As Jagdeep says, if I throw someone out of my house because I don’t want to listen to what they’re saying, that’s my right and in no way an infringement of their freedom of speech. But if I walk up to someone at Speakers’ Corner and drag them away and put a gag over their mouth, that would be an infringement of their freedom of speech.

    61. Amir — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:49 pm  

      VT Dasgupta…

      (I) ‘Israel breads hate ! if you want Israel, then live it. it’s a shame you feel that way.’

      And Anas…[two birds with one stone]

      (II) ‘Wow, 90% of a British faith/ethnic community supported a gratuitous act of large-scale terrorism’

      Israel and its territories would fit comfortably within the borders of England with plenty of room to spare; any general asked to defend such a country would groan with despair. It is worth mentioning that it is also within missile range of Iran and Syria, not far over the eastern horizon, and that Iran and Syria agree on only one thing – their contempt for Jews and Judaism. Within living memory Israel has three times been the target of invasions from its neighbours, in 1948, 1967, and 1973. During the Gulf War it was bombarded with Iraqi Scud missiles. You might pardon its inhabitants for being a little nervous about their security.

      In 1967 the IDF conquered the ‘Occupied Territories’ after its victory in the Six-Day War. You might think Israel had seized them illegally from their rightful owner. In fact this is not true. They were grabbed by armed force along with the eastern and most holy part of Jerusalem (then known as ‘Transjordan’) in 1948 – not 1967. Transjordan ethnically cleansed all Jews from this land and from its sector of Jerusalem, and promptly renamed itself Jordan. During the 19 years of Jordanian rule, the area was never described as ‘Occupied Territory’. And during that time there were also no demands for independence from the Palestinian people. The Gaza strip was gobbled up by Egypt in the same year, to a chorus of silence from the oh-so-noble ‘Ummah’ and their hypocritical Leftists allies.

      The astounding thing is that so many Israelis, despite this prevalent hypocrisy, have sought peace treaties with their belligerent neighbours. Almost the entire Israeli media, the country’s largest political party, most of its authors, academics and artists, campaign constantly for their own state to make risky concessions to its enemies and to further negotiations for a two-state solution.

      To be sure: Israel has many scars on its collective past and is not a perfect society. Some of its founders were shameful terrorists and many others too were war criminals, such as, for instance, General Ariel Sharon (aka the Butcher of Beirut). During the 1948 war there is little doubt that the Israelis drove some Arabs from their homes, though the Arab radio stations were also urging them to flee to give the Arab invading armies a clear run in their invasion.

      But it is not some kind of crude apartheid oppressor. You would not know from the BBC coverage that Israel has a million Arab citizens with full civil and voting rights, except that they do not have to serve in the army.

      Amir

    62. Leon — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:54 pm  

      And I decided that I wouldn’t take any more of this antisemitic crap from anyone.

      That’s unfair. You defending the state of Israel isn’t always from “anti-semitac crap”. It’s a hugely powerful state, funded with billions of dollars, equipped with advanced military hardware, and a few hundred nuclear weapons. Any state like that deserved it’s actions to be scrutinised.

      The ethnicity of it’s people and it’s history is irrelevant in the face of such power.

    63. VT Dasgupta — on 16th October, 2006 at 4:58 pm  

      Jagdeep – don’t be more jewish than chairwoman.

      CW - I didn’t say go to Israel. Please also don’t reinterpret my statement to suit your own viewpoint and DON’T emotionally blackmail people.

      If only jews would help the palestinians instead of making excuses.

    64. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:01 pm  

      And that has what to do with what preceeded that phrase, or Baroness Tonge’s implication of some kind of secret Jewish control over the Lib Dems?

    65. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:05 pm  

      How come it’s emotional blackmail when I say something, and not when Nyrone does?

      I’m not making excuses. Their democratically elected representatives don’t want to recognise Israel. Therefore, I don’t want to help them. OK?

    66. Katy Newton — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:13 pm  

      Don’t be more Jewish than the Chairwoman.

      Antisemitic enough for you yet, Leon?

    67. Katy Newton — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:20 pm  

      Leon, you said this to the Chairwoman:

      The ethnicity of it’s people and it’s history is irrelevant in the face of such power

      That really would be better directed to VT Dasgupta, don’t you think?

    68. VT Dasgupta — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:22 pm  

      CW-In the league of emotional blackmail, you top it. Your argument can be reduced to saying – jews are a greater victim due to the Holocaust, whereas the Palestinians, well.. their’s isn’t even a genocide.

      Katy –is saying “don’t be more catholic than the pope”- racism ? NO.

    69. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:31 pm  

      Dasgupta - fuck off you obnoxious racist cunt.

    70. Jai — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:33 pm  

      VT Dasgupta - Don’t be more Muslim than the Palestinians.

    71. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:35 pm  

      Dasgupta don’t be more anti-semitic than the Nazis.

      Twat.

    72. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:35 pm  

      Genocide is a act. The holocaust is not the only example. There was Biafra in the sixties. People were killed because they were a different tribe. No other reason than ethnicity.

      That is not happening to the Palestinians. Their leaders have stated many times that they won’t recognise Israel and are not bound by agreements made by previous administrations. It’s a war. The fact Israel is better equipped doesn’t stop it being a war. They are beuing killed because they are at war, not because of their ethnicity.

      IT’S NOGT GENOCIDE!

    73. Jagdeep — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:37 pm  

      Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to petition some Jews for permission to go home, seeing as they control everything. Goodnight one and all, Sat-Sri-Akaal, Salaam, Shalom, Namaste, Zeig Heil (for Dasgupta) and Irie for the Jamaicans. Toodle Pip for the English people.

    74. Chairwoman — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:37 pm  

      Typos typos typos!

    75. Don — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:42 pm  

      VT,

      Your sole point seems to be that the media and all three major political parties (plus possibly the BNP) are controlled by a secret and sinister cabal of jews.

      There are sites where this might be considered a valid position, in fact you linked to some of them. As you may have gathered by now, this isn’t one of them.

      So…, oh what the hell, see comment #74.

    76. Katy Newton — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:49 pm  

      :D at Don!

    77. Katy Newton — on 16th October, 2006 at 5:50 pm  

      But still, another thread ruined by an idiot troll. Talk about the death of debate.

    78. Clairwil — on 16th October, 2006 at 6:12 pm  

      Where are all these trolls and their absurd prejudices coming from? Who are they and what do they want?

      I suspect a multi-ethnic conspiracy of loons.

    79. Amir — on 16th October, 2006 at 6:51 pm  

      VT Dasgupta,

      ‘Your argument can be reduced to saying – jews are a greater victim due to the Holocaust, whereas the Palestinians, well.. their’s isn’t even a genocide.’

      According to most estimates, there have been approx 1,100 dead Israelis and 4,000 dead Palestinians since 2000. You’d have to be exceptionally stupid or ill-informed to believe that that constitutes ‘a genocide’. It is true that, when the State of Israel was first created, Israelis unquestionably perpetrated unforgivable massacres and drove people from their homes. When Britain, bankrupt and demoralized, scuttled from the region in 1948, Israel grabbed as much as it could of this chaotic legacy. Arab armies in turn seized as much as they could, committing massacres of their own in the process.

      In any case, there is no comparison between, say, the is 711,000 Palestinian refugees expelled in 1948 and the 12 million Germans expelled from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Russia, Hungary and Romania after World War Two. All have long since been absorbed into Germany and few seriously dream of returning to their lost homes. Or compare them with the 14 million caught in the wrong place in the bloody India-Pakistan partition of 1947. Nearly 8 million Hindus fled from Pakistan and 6 million Moslems streamed out of India. None of them is still in a refugee camp, nor are the 900,000 Jews driven often with great brutality and persecution from Arab countries after the Holocaust.

      This, I believe, is the nub of the problem. Most of the Arab states refuse to grant any of the Palestinians citizenship or to pay towards their maintenance. Why? Because they have a political interest in preventing the festering wound from ever healing, since the refugees plight is excellent anti-Israel propaganda. They still promote the idea that they may one day return to their lost homes. For if they did so, Israel would cease to exist, its Jews a minority in an Arab state.

      Amir

    80. Vikrant — on 16th October, 2006 at 6:52 pm  

      Been to Israel just once, got distant family in Ashdod. Then lived in Al Jubail,KSA for two whole years. If any nation qualifies for an apartheid state, it is KSA.

    81. Vikrant — on 16th October, 2006 at 7:00 pm  

      Or compare them with the 14 million caught in the wrong place in the bloody India-Pakistan partition of 1947.

      Actually it will only be 8 million in wrong place. India was meant to be and largely is a secular country. Over 44million Muslims did choose India over Pakistan.

    82. Amir — on 16th October, 2006 at 9:30 pm  

      Okay – having defended Israel and rebuked Her critics – let me comment on this little douzy:

      (I) ‘Conspiracy nuts [referring to Pat Buchanan] really annoy me though so I’m still somewhat undecided on this issue.’

      There’s something eerily similar to this on Harry’s Place:

      (II) ‘…her latest remarks as anything other than standard antisemitic tripe that wouldn’t be out of place in a David Icke or Pat Buchanan rant.’

      These, of course, are aimed at me, or, to put it less egotistically, they are aimed at principled conservatives who believe that a nation’s culture and its demographic stability are essential prerequisites for peace and privacy to flourish. Conservatives believe in the organic metaphor for a just society and that too sudden a shift to its cultural composition is bound to lead to unintended consequences, not of which will be desirable (read anything by Burke, Popper, or Russell Kirk).

      I disagree with Pat on several issues (i.e. his ugly tirades against homosexuality), but I admire his tough stance on immigration – and his brilliant analysis of population trends. As I have said on numerous occasions, in a Fourth Generation world, open borders and mass immigration are a lot more dangerous than invasion by a foreign army. At some point, the foreign army will go home. But immigrants stay, and if they do not respect their adopted homeland, they permanently change its cultural complexion. Fact. On the issue of anti-Semitism, it is interesting to note that the increase in anti-Semitic abuse and attacks has occurred in those areas which have seen the highest influx of rural, Kashmiri immigrants. Coincidence? Nope. I don’t think so.

      Now, to forestall any misunderstanding – I am not suggesting that this is true of all immigrants. I would never, ever let myself descend into such ugly, slipshod stereotyping, especially when one considers the ugly prejudices of our native population. But it is equally absurd, and in equal measure, to think that the current level of immigration is not having any affect on our culture – for better or for worse. To suggest that ‘all diversity is good diversity’ is both dishonest and dangerous.

      When people call Pat Buchanan a ‘conspiracy theorist,’ they extend that courtesy to professional statisticians, paid demographers, and UN officials, all of whom are cited in Pat’s research. To suggest that there is some sort of dismal moral equivalence between me (for example) and an anti-Semitic conspiracy-theorist is so stupid that it borders on the surreal. There’s no conspiracy at all.

      Luckily for us, there are a growing number of libertarians who see my side of the story.

      Amir.

    83. ZinZin — on 16th October, 2006 at 10:57 pm  

      Should public servants be allowed such idiocy?

      Yes they should. If they gain any positions of power in government then we should worry. Although they do keep us amused when bringing death and destruction on a vast scale. God bless Dubya you couldn’t make him up.

      A bigger fool than Reagan some achievement.

    84. El Cid — on 16th October, 2006 at 11:10 pm  

      On the issue of anti-Semitism, it is interesting to note that the increase in anti-Semitic abuse and attacks has occurred in those areas which have seen the highest influx of rural, Kashmiri immigrants. Coincidence? Nope. I don’t think so.

      And your source for this generalisation?

    85. Amir — on 16th October, 2006 at 11:25 pm  

      El Cid,

      ‘And your source for this generalisation?’

      This.

    86. Rowshan — on 16th October, 2006 at 11:55 pm  

      anti-semitism is on the rise but also pales in comparison to anti-Muslim hate which is raging on at the moment.

      what I don’t understand is why we can’t keep our focus on anti-racism/religious hatred against both Muslims and Jewish folk - divide and rule always worked in the past, and it seems to be working wonders under the shadow of 9/11.

    87. Sunny — on 16th October, 2006 at 11:55 pm  

      Lordamercy! Where did these nuts come from?? Please - bugger off! I’d like a sane debate here and not this conspiracy theory tripe. It sounds almost like Melanie Phillips seeing everything as the death of western civilisation or the Islamicisation of Britain.

      Katy - Hmm.. you made a good point. I suspect you’re right.. it makes sense. Though surely then it’s Ming Campbell’s decision to make and if he didn’t strip her of all duties then others should just put up with it.

      Anyway, I’ve deleted some of the idiotic comments above, I’m not tolerating any more trolls on this thread.

    88. Katy Newton — on 17th October, 2006 at 12:18 am  

      I always make good points :)

      And I am about to make another one. When you say:

      Though surely then it’s Ming Campbell’s decision to make and if he didn’t strip her of all duties then others should just put up with it

      would you also apply that principle to other situations in which elected leaders make decisions that other people don’t agree with? Say, when Tony Blair decided to go to war against Iraq?

      When you think about it, it comes down to this: she is entitled to say what she likes. Other people are entitled to say that they don’t like it. And the Lib Dems are entitled to decide who they do and don’t want representing them on the front bench and on what basis. If they do decide that they want her on the front bench, then some people won’t vote for them. If they decide that they don’t want her on the front bench, other people won’t vote for them.

      There isn’t any abuse of anyone’s rights going on here, only a lot of different people exercising them at the same time.

    89. Amir — on 17th October, 2006 at 12:25 am  

      Katy,

      ‘There isn’t any abuse of anyone’s rights going on here, only a lot of different people exercising them at the same time.’

      That line is infinitely quotable! You should get it copyrighted [**feeling humble in the presence of a big-shot lawyer with even bigger boobs**]. :-)

    90. Sunny — on 17th October, 2006 at 12:27 am  

      When people call Pat Buchanan a ‘conspiracy theorist

      So a man who believes the MExicans are coming over the USA and then waiting for the day they can reclaim Texas and other parts of South America for Mexico is backed up by demographers and professional statisticians! Wow. impressive.

      On IP checks, I can only ascertain that Tim Osman and Dick Turpin were the same. VT Dasgupta was some one else. Folks, please try and get less sidetracked by trolls.

      Katy:
      would you also apply that principle to other situations in which elected leaders make decisions that other people don’t agree with? Say, when Tony Blair decided to go to war against Iraq?

      Well there is a slight difference between dropping bombs on people and being a conspiracy nut-job. MPAC are conspiracy nut idiots but they’re not killing anyone.
      But if Blair hadn’t killed anyone then of course I’d have to live with a dicision that I may not like but he did as a leader.

      I take your point however that LibDems are not required to have nutters represent them. Makes sense.

    91. Katy Newton — on 17th October, 2006 at 12:32 am  

      But if Blair hadn’t killed anyone then of course I’d have to live with a dicision that I may not like but he did as a leader.

      Yes, in the sense that you wouldn’t be able to force him to change his mind, because our democracy works on the basis that once you’ve elected someone you’re pretty much at the mercy of their loyalty to their mandate. But no one would say that you wouldn’t be entitled to pursue any legal and proper channel available to you to persuade him to change his mind, which is what pretty much everyone is trying to do here :)

      Amir - thank you, I am liking my bigshot lawyer status :)

    92. Sid — on 17th October, 2006 at 1:16 am  

      At some point, the foreign army will go home. But immigrants stay, and if they do not respect their adopted homeland, they permanently change its cultural complexion.

      Jewish, West-Indian and Asian immigration have changed the cultural complexion of this country for the better. Fact.

      On the issue of anti-Semitism, it is interesting to note that the increase in anti-Semitic abuse and attacks has occurred in those areas which have seen the highest influx of rural, Kashmiri immigrants. Coincidence? Nope. I don’t think so.

      More credulous bollocks, especially when you take this into consideration:

      The Board of Deputies of British Jews submitted evidence to the inquiry that anti-Semitism in Britain was at its worst level.

      The July incidents “were more dispersed than usual”, Mr Gardner said. “It is usually a small number responsible for a large number of attacks, but these were very widespread across the country and included graffiti attacks on synagogues in Edinburgh and Glasgow.”

      The attackers, when visible, are from across society, he said. “When it’s verbal abuse, it’s just ordinary people in the street, from middle-class women to working-class men. All colours and backgrounds. We hardly ever see incidents involving the classic neo-Nazi skinhead. Muslims are over-represented.”

      In other words, antisemitic attacks are now carried out by people of all races and class, but its still largely inflicted by white people. Especially those who have absorbed a literal interpretation of the kind of oily bigotry espoused by the likes Pat Buchanan and his particular brand of respectable/aseptic antisemitism.

    93. Sunny — on 17th October, 2006 at 2:21 am  

      But no one would say that you wouldn’t be entitled to pursue any legal and proper channel available to you to persuade him to change his mind, which is what pretty much everyone is trying to do here

      Sure. but I don’t see why, given Ming Campbell has rebuked her strongly, this PPC has to run his own secret campaign.

    94. Katy Newton — on 17th October, 2006 at 2:28 am  

      What’s secret about it? He’s said he’s doing it. Don’t tell me you’re a conspiracy theorist too?

    95. Amir — on 17th October, 2006 at 2:37 am  

      Sunny,

      (I) “So a man who believes the Mexicans are coming over the USA and then waiting for the day they can reclaim Texas and other parts of South America for Mexico is backed up by demographers and professional statisticians! Wow. impressive.”

      Let me quote a brief passage in Pat Buchanan’s State of Emergency: “In 1960, there were perhaps 5 million Asians and Hispanics in the United States. Today, there are 57 million…this is not immigration…this is an invasion.” The re-colonisation of Texas can be achieved through demographic growth and steady conversion of the local politics to suit that of Mexico’s. Many Mexican immigrants have a revanchist view on territories lost to the United States in the Mexican-American War and that their high birthrates threaten the social cohesion of certain parts of the country. Indeed, one of the recurring themes in Pat Buchanan’s work is that various types of nativism, cultural loyalties, and blood ties shape world events more strongly than any of us suspect.

      Here’s another thing you said:

      (II) “It sounds almost like Melanie Phillips seeing everything as the death of western civilisation or the Islamicisation of Britain.”

      Why is it a conspiracy? Is everything a conspiracy to you Sunny? Criticism of Islam, jokes about Islam, are rapidly becoming taboo, even legally restricted (Michelle Malkin has even been banned off YouTube). Yet Moslems have total freedom to say what they like about the rest of us. Quietly, the Civil Service, the police and the education system (and many big banks and businesses) have already begun to adapt themselves to the idea of an Islamised Britain. The demand for Sharia Law will be made with increasing force as the Moslem population grows and the Moslem vote – already decisive in many constituencies – grows with it, because all the major parties are contemptuous towards our Christian heritage. The number of Moslem women wearing headscarves, or total veils, has risen sharply in the past few years. Large new mosques have appeared on many skylines. Many more are being built. This is happening now, here. Our Government is helping it. You can dismiss it as a ‘conspiracy theory’ if you like, but for those of us who live in the real world, it is worth maintaining a cautious scepticism.

      I have great sympathy for much of what Islam says, and I display an unusual fondness for Moslems in general (one of my blogging ambitions is to have a theological debate with the irrepressible Ali Eteraz). But the thing is: I don’t want to live in an Islamic Britain. No way. Does that make me an ‘Islamophobe’? I doubt it. As far as I’m concerned, it makes me a British patriot and a conscientious Christian. There are things about Islamic societies that I don’t like, just as there are things about Socialism, Communism, or Liberalism I don’t like. It’s a personal and moral preference, and it is shared by billions of devout Christians.

      Ignore it at your peril.

      Amir

    96. Sunny — on 17th October, 2006 at 3:02 am  

      Amir, more conspiracy theories. Broken record etc, cannot be asked to engage.

      Katy - sorry I meant why the personal vendetta. I just his language very odd.

    97. Amir — on 17th October, 2006 at 3:40 am  

      Sunny,

      ‘Amir, more conspiracy theories. Broken record etc, cannot be asked to engage’

      You’re a real jellyfish. No principles, no morals, no background knowledge in anything that you discuss. And, furthermore, considering that you’re 29-yrs-old, you’re poorly read and completely ignorant of the working-class community, their history, their culture; the way that they feel about certain issues. You haven’t a clue, have you?

      To be honest, it amazes me that you’re a full-time journalist. I know lots and lots and lots of Asian people – graduates in History, Politics, and English Literature – who’re infinitely more talented than yourself; and yet, like me, they have had to do backbreaking jobs with little pay and zero prospect of promotion. Funny that, eh? I guess it’s ‘who you know’.

      Amir

    98. Amir — on 17th October, 2006 at 3:57 am  

      And no: I don’t care if I’m being rude to you, because you’re always rude to me - ALWAYS.

      Chickens come home to roost. You reap what you sow.

    99. Sunny — on 17th October, 2006 at 4:14 am  

      Heh, these silly jibes are like water off a duck’s back given your hilarious conspiracy theories above. Does it bother me what you say? No.
      Keep defending Melanie Phillips and Pat Buchanan, it’s amusing. You can be PP’s pet conspiracy theorist. We’ll feed you bananas in return.

    100. Jai — on 17th October, 2006 at 2:26 pm  

      Amir,

      =>”And no: I don’t care if I’m being rude to you, because you’re always rude to me - ALWAYS.”

      With all due respect, these things are a two-way street; being a jerk towards someone who you perceive as behaving like a jerk towards you doesn’t elevate the situation. It risks undermining your own moral credibility and triggering an on-going spiral of insult vs counter-insult.

      Look at it this way. Participating in these forums is like having a debate with a bunch of people in someone else’s living room. As the host (and the owner of this “house”), it’s Sunny’s job to create an amicable, constructive environment where everyone concerned can discuss matters “safely”, and it’s also his role to be fair-minded, to ensure that nobody harasses anyone else and that the discussion is kept reasonably on-track. During the past few months especially, I think Sunny’s done an outstanding job (certainly compared with some other Asian blogs/internet discussion forums I could mention), and he’s been very restrained indeed towards you, along with various inflammatory types who have occasionally seen fit to grace us with their presence.

      It’s a learning experience for everyone concerned. Sunny continously learns how to be a good “master of ceremonies”, and the rest of us polish our skills in engaging in constructive, hopefully informative discussions without matters degenerating into personal insults, timewasting & irritating mind-games, online “social politics” (something Asians in particular excel at, unfortunately), threadjacking and the propagation of nefarious personal agendas.

      While Sunny does his best to ensure that he’s a good host, it’s also our job to be good houseguests. Along with the usual pleasantries and courtesies, this also means that we do not take advantage of our host’s good nature, particularly if he deems it fit to allow us to continue participating in the “chat” in his home, rather than rapidly throwing us out of the front door if anyone disagrees with him. Hurling verbal abuse at the host is very counterproductive indeed, unless one is deliberately trying to get oneself kicked out. I’ve disagreed with Sunny too on occasion, as most regulars on PP will know — but there are ways of getting one’s point across firmly, authoritatively and politely, without resorting to personal attacks and strawman arguments.

      So both parties concerned need to do their best to “play fair”. Perhaps both you and Sunny should metaphorically “shake hands”, both apologise to each other for any rudeness or direct attacks which you may have deliberately or inadvertantly engaged in, and make a firm joint decision to henceforth endeavour to keep your mutual dialogue civilised in future.

    101. Anas — on 17th October, 2006 at 3:01 pm  

      I know lots and lots and lots of Asian people…

      I doubt that

    102. Anas — on 17th October, 2006 at 3:07 pm  

      Check this out, it says what I want to say about Israel/Palestine but far more eloquently than I ever could:

      http://www.counterpunch.org/bricmont10142006.html

    103. Anas — on 17th October, 2006 at 3:11 pm  

      From Uri Avnery:
      http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1160914974/

      I think it’s time supporters of Israel in the UK and US started to realise that policies like these as well as being completely immoral and illegal, will very likely prove destructive to Israel in the long run.

    104. Anas — on 17th October, 2006 at 3:18 pm  

      OK, last one (for now). But since it was mentioned above and is therefore relevant to the thread, the case for genocide in Gaza:

      http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=10881

    105. Chairwoman — on 17th October, 2006 at 3:21 pm  

      Anas - This thread really isn’t about Israel and Palestine, it’s about Jenny Tonge’s conspiracy theory that Jews run the Lib Dems, with which I am sure you do not agree.

    106. Anas — on 17th October, 2006 at 3:28 pm  

      Chairwoman, I was just responding to points that had been made above in as brief a fashion as possible. Specifically the comedy rantings of Amir whose potted history of the situation is even dismissed by most mainstream Israeli historians. But these stories are important in their own right and so maybe I should have submitted them as links instead.

    107. http://modernityblog.blogspot.com/ — on 17th October, 2006 at 6:36 pm  

      Chairwomen is correct, the thread is about Tonge’s comments:

      “The pro-Israeli lobby has got its grips on the western world, its financial grips. I think they have probably got a certain grip on our party”

      Had someone said this in the 1930s you’d almost automatically assume that they were on the extreme right or indoctrinated racialists, yet in the post WW2 period overt manifestations of anti-Jewish racism were frowned upon in “polite society” (normally comprising many liberals) so we’ve managed to get to the 21st century with the persistence of these nasty and strange views. Which is either rather telling of humanity or of the enduring phenomena known as antisemitism, depending on how you look at it

      Tonge is a politician, words are her tool and her craft, so for her to invoke anti-Semitic imagery, which would have been at home in 1930s Germany, is either:

      chronically stupid,
      politically inept
      or revealing of some subconscious thought process

      I’m not sure which, but it is striking that the Parliamentary report on anti-Semitism remarked how such vile language and imagery was coming into the mainstream political discourse, almost anticipating her comments?

      I wonder if Baroness Tonge read the report?

    108. Anas — on 18th October, 2006 at 3:26 pm  

      Check out Norman Finkelstein’s comments on that Parliamentary Report:
      http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/docs/BritishAntisemitismReport.doc

      Quote:
      “In the category of inherently anti-Semitic pronouncements the report includes “drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis” (only comparisons of contemporary Arab policy to that of the Nazis are permissible) and “theories about Jewish or Zionist influence on American foreign policy” (even if Jewish and Zionist organizations boast about this influence).”

    109. Sunny — on 18th October, 2006 at 4:44 pm  

      Anas - I think you’re being deliberately disingenuous. There are plenty of examples of Muslim groups hoping to spread their tentacles all over Britain. Al-Muj and HuT were notorious for putting up posters saying Britain would become part of the Khalifah.

      Now would you like it if people then took that to mean all Muslims and say they’re in a bid to take over and convert all British society? That they are a fifth column to be feared? It’s absurd.

      You seem to have a blind-spot over this. Pointing out conspiracy theories about others while wilfully ignoring how it may apply to Muslims too. Finkelstein aside - at least he is criticising his “own side”. You’re not. You’re just using his writings for your own objectives while ignoring how it applies in general and how you’re contributing towards a climate of fear and hatred.

    110. Anas — on 20th October, 2006 at 2:42 pm  

      Sunny, since I haven’t said I agreed with Tonge’s comment, I don’t understand the point you’re making. I don’t understand the criticism that I’m ignoring my own side, I’ve talked about the failings of Muslim countries plenty of times, about radical groups, etc. Check out my blog, in my FP essay I condemn radical Muslim groups.

      But I still have difficulty actually understanding what you’re accusing me of.

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