A plan to save BBC Asian Network, pt 1


by Sunny
15th April, 2010 at 9:08 am    

After that letter in the Guardian last month, it’s time to step up the campaign to save BBC Asian Network a gear or two.

The first part of the plan involves getting lots of paper petitions signed. Many of you have complained via the BBC Trust website but we also want to deliver petitions with names on them ourselves. Besides, not everyone has access to the internet.

You can download the petition as a PDF file from this page. Print off as many copies as you can fill up. We’ll need them back from you around mid-May.

You can also help us gather more signatures! Over the next few weeks several outdoor events will take place across the UK. We are organising teams of people to attend those events and get as many petitions signed as possible!

25 April – Vasakhi Mela – Birmingham
25 April – Vasakhi Mela – London, Hounslow
2 May – Vasakhi Mela - Trafalgar Sq, London

Please print off copies of the petitions and try and get people at those events to sign them. You may also bump into people there doing the same! Hold on to those petitions once you have them we’ll need them from you.


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  1. Sunil Thear

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  1. Old Holborn — on 15th April, 2010 at 9:11 am  

    Here’s a radical plan.

    Asian people who want a radio station set up a radio station. Using THEIR money.

    Scottish people who want a radio station set up a radio station. Using THEIR money.

    English people who want a radio station set up a radio station. Using THEIR money.

  2. persephone IAE — on 15th April, 2010 at 9:22 am  

    Old Holborn

    I am english but also asian – what should I do?

    Being english/scottish/welsh is not mutually exclusive to being asian

  3. persephone — on 15th April, 2010 at 9:30 am  

    am i getting caught in the spam filter?

  4. Edsa — on 15th April, 2010 at 10:13 am  

    I think Sunny said at the end of Feb, that
    “The Asian Network has come under intense pressure recently to improve its audience ratings and improve value for money. An internal survey last year found the station was the most expensive among all BBC radio stations.”
    So a good case must be made for saving it. Answers to two points are required:
    1) how Asian is the network? It seems to cater mostly to the lager groups (Punjabi, Bengali, Hindi/Urduwalss). Are South Asians given any space at all?

    2) the focus has been on rather lightweight stuff like music, film, food or fashion. There is little interaction with mainstream voices, little debate on topical issues.

    I think a revived Network should include a more serious side – current affairs (Asian perspective), discussion and exchange of views (Home Office policies, critique of the political parties, record of Asian MPs, the criminal justice system, etc.

    In short,the new Network should
    - be more representative of all South Asians
    - cut out too much of the usual sing-song & religious humbug and make room for a more rational/intellectual component.

    Apart from the corner shops, Asians in Britain are associated with non-intellectual activity (Bolly, curry and cricket). Time Asians got into the news for innovation and invention.

  5. Alfred Ahmed — on 15th April, 2010 at 11:03 am  

    I’m still confused on your stance regarding the Asian Network. We both know it is intellectually vacuous. Yet the majority of British Asians are ignobly choosing to focus on the superficial side of the issue. That being the music, and the vital platform it provides for Asian artists.

    I agree with the comment above. Not only should the Asian Network be representative of all South Asians. It needs to be representative of all South British Asians. I have always said that the network does not represent a pluralistic British Asian society. One in which the British Asian identity is rapidly evolving due to miscegenation and intermarriage. The network does not seem to acknowledge this. Choosing to represent a very bastardized form of British Asian culture they have created themselves, and bastardized it is.

    In my opinion because of this, it completely undermines diversity. Encouraging people like myself to see themselves in the exclusive narrow category which is the British Asian. We should be embracing cultural hybridity which is all about newness, reinvention, crossing and changing cultural identities.

    I agree with above, if it is to be revived, it certainly does need to include a more serious side. But how many people are really going to tune into discussion about Asian politicians? I can imagine the numbers would be lower than they already are.The network has gotten themselves into this mess by choosing to represent this certain form of Asian culture with it’s fusion music (which I don’t have anything against). But multiculturalism should not be the superficial exchange of food, music, film. It should be the exchange of ideas and intellectual discussion. So please don’t focus on the platform for Asian artists it provides. I even have a serious issue with that which I haven’t gone into.

  6. Kismet Hardy — on 15th April, 2010 at 11:38 am  

    Old Holborn, It’s British Asian music, innit? Just like Radio 6 is British Indie and Smooth FM is British lounge music and Q is, well, American British rock. In this context ‘Asian’ is a genre in music and if British Asian license payers have to pay for Chris Moyles’ pie supply, then British pie eaters should pay Bobby Friction for his crack. Not that radical really fella

  7. Dalbir — on 15th April, 2010 at 2:21 pm  

    then British pie eaters should pay Bobby Friction for his crack

    Bobby’s on crack!

    hmmmm…….

    Chris Moyles single handedly manages to keep Fray Bentos profitable.

    We finally have a conclusive answer to the age old question of ‘who ate all the pies?’

  8. Sunny — on 15th April, 2010 at 2:31 pm  

    Edsa and Alfred – I agree with that in fact. I’ve always criticised AN for being intellectually vacuous and I hope this changes. But its about the only space with the potential to offer that content. Breaking it up, or having only Sunrise radio won’t.

  9. Kismet Hardy — on 15th April, 2010 at 2:41 pm  

    What’s wrong with being intellectually vacuous? I know the correct answer to that, but since when did entertainment and deep thought go hand in hand? The X Fuctor and Strictly Come Wanking and everything shat out by the Pant and Dick bring in the ratings for the precise reason that they are mindnumbingly watchable.

    Ratings aren’t the same as critical opinion. Ratings are made by the number of viewers and listeners, and when they don’t add up, the axe falls.

    Instead of trying to be clever and alienating its core audiences, who may be idiots to some of you for digging the H Dhami vibe innit, Asian Network should hire more dumb fucks and become even more vapid, and maybe they’ll stand a chance of survival.

    I am available.

  10. Alfred Ahmed — on 15th April, 2010 at 4:06 pm  

    Again, I have to reiterate my point that we shouldn’t be concentrating on this ‘space’ or the vital platform. We need to take the much larger issues into account.

    Another point we should take into account is whether the network is simply a platform for Asian fusion music or is it creating a space for ‘Asian’ music to emerge. In other words, if I or you were to start making music and started mc-ing (god forbid), we have this platform already which is creating an unfair advantage due to the petty fact that we have Asian ancestry. But if a white British person for example was making exactly the same music, they wouldn’t have a ready made platform. You can argue there’s Radio 1,2,6, Xfm and there’s an endless list, but these stations are not defined by ethnicity. Whereas the Asian Network is.This is inherently unfair for non Asian people.

    Kismet – It is counterproductive to describe every radio station which is non-Asian as British. You described the music played on 6music ‘British Indie’ which is ridiculous and reinforces the point I’m trying to make about trying not to clumsily define music on ethnic terms.

    I also believe entertainment and deep thought sometimes should go hand in hand. Other radio stations such as Radio 4 display this, why can’t the Asian Network? DJ Nihal tries to raise ‘interesting’ issues, but they range from marriage to education to relationships, to marriage again. We need to stop this bastardised form of Asian entertainment which reinforces cultural stereotypes, which makes the rest of us look like old-fashioned unprogressive peoples.

  11. Kismet Hardy — on 15th April, 2010 at 4:21 pm  

    Hang on a tick tock Alfie. There is a genre in Britain broadly termed as British Asian music which covers your bollywood breakbeats, UK bhangra, asian underground, Hindi dubstep, godawful r&b and a plethora of British Asian-made music that are all in one way or another classed as fusion music. You can call it a ‘bastardised form of Asian entertainment’ all you like, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are plenty of British Asians who enjoy that genre of music, and plenty of British Asians trying to make their living providing that as entertainment.

    If someone wants pure bhangra or pure Hindi, they can tune into the likes of Sunrise Radio. If the BBC has a British Asian channel (and I’m not saying that they absolutely must) then it should concentrate, as it does, on the diverse fusion that these British Asian musicians are making.

    It’s not an ‘unfair advantage’, and the point that it forces you to adopt the british asian tag that you’re clearly uncomfortable with is neither here nor there, fact is, there’s a niche, BBC Asian Network tried to fill it – the fact that not enough people gave a shit is the reason why it’s facing the chop, but that’s not to say the thousands who did and do give a shit don’t know what they’re talking about or, more importantly, listening to.

    (And curse your eyes, my description of British Indie was a swipe at Old Holborn’s comment which got deleted so I’ll fully accept it’s hanging there like a wet fart screaming ‘twat’ in my direction. But beyond that, I’m right, you’re wrong, and that’s the way the world is)

  12. IAE — on 15th April, 2010 at 4:39 pm  

    Persephone @ # 1

    “Being english/scottish/welsh is not mutually exclusive to being asian”

    Well actually it is in reality; completely so.

    Being English/ Scottish/ Welsh is not a nationality but an ethnicity:

    The indigenous English population are descended from several genetically similar peoples – the earlier Britons (or Brythons), the Germanic tribes that settled in the area, including Angles, Saxons, Jutes, who founded what was to become England (from the Old English Engla-lond), and the later Norse Vikings and Normans.

    The Scots are an indigenous ethnic group from an amalgamation of the Celtic peoples: The Picts, the Gaels, and the Brythons.

    The Welsh are an indigenous group from an amalgamation of the earlier Britons (or Brythons) Celts and later Norse and Vikings.

    Whereas quite clearly Asian people are none of the above nor can they trace their lineage in their areas back to the Stone Age as 85% of the indigenous inhabitants of these regions can.

    Not a slight, but a fact.

  13. Alfred Ahmed — on 15th April, 2010 at 4:49 pm  

    I’m not intending to demean any form of British Asian fusion music, but it needs to be spread across the channels, and not be relegated to a channel which is defined by ethnicity alone. I’m not even denying there is a niche. But there are hundreds of thousands of niches out there, does the fact that the Asian community who make up a large immigrant minority warrant their niche to be filled?

    I think it is an unfair advantage because I can adopt the British Asian tag and essentially use it to my advantage with the help of the Asian Network.

    The bastardized form of entertainment refers to Asian culture as a whole in this country which far from resembles anything from the subcontinent. I think it’s fair to say the Asian Network focuses on the ‘light’ issues someone mentioned above regarding bollywood music, fashion, film etc.

    I say it’s bastardized as it’s trying to representent British Asian culture, whereas I’d rather read a Salman Rushdie or Kureishi novel to get a better idea of Asian culture. My point, if one doesn’t know about the wider issues at stake, people who claim this is a genuine outlet for Asian culture then they are wrong. If the mediums are there to promote this form of culture, British Asians are inevitably going to subscribe to it. Does that make sense?

    And don’t call me Alfie.

  14. Kismet Hardy — on 15th April, 2010 at 5:29 pm  

    “does the fact that the Asian community who make up a large immigrant minority warrant their niche to be filled?”

    Yes.

    “I can adopt the British Asian tag and essentially use it to my advantage with the help of the Asian Network”

    Because Asians have it really easy in every other sector, right?

    ” think it’s fair to say the Asian Network focuses on the ‘light’ issues someone mentioned above regarding bollywood music, fashion, film etc.”

    Hence the term ‘light’ entertainment.

    “’I’d rather read a Salman Rushdie or Kureishi novel to get a better idea of Asian culture”

    Good for you. Lots of young Asians would rather get their ideas from Rishi Rich and Riz Khan.

    “people who claim this is a genuine outlet for Asian culture then they are wrong.”

    Lots of Asian people seem to think so. Or are they not ‘proper’ Asians because they prefer Ruby Hammer’s make-up stick to Vikram Seth’s doorstoppers?

    “If the mediums are there to promote this form of culture, British Asians are inevitably going to subscribe to it”

    How very patrnonising.

    “And don’t call me Alfie”

    Don’t be so concerned with what strangers think of you or how they might judge you, whether that may be because they see you as an alfie or a british asian.

  15. Alfred Ahmed — on 15th April, 2010 at 6:12 pm  

    Erm, I’m not sure how that’s patronising anyone. People have subscribed to the notion that the Asian network does in fact represent British Asians. That’s why people are trying to save it correct? I’m just making a point that it doesn’t represent a plural British Asian society which is quite clearly evolving. I think it’s fair to say people who are vehemently defending it genuinely believe it is representative, but I’m saying it is not as it is bastardized.

    Even Sunny admits it’s intellectually vacuous, so where are the British Asian intellectuals to demonstrate a more representative society? Sunny is essentially defending something which isn’t even there yet so I’m confused.

    Ok, so there are more Asians in this country than any other ethic group. We are more integrated in the Britsh way of way, we contribute to the economy. Yeah, that warrants the need for public spent radio station. Apologies but gives off a sense of cultural superiority. Give me a break, being British Asian isn’t being part of an exclusive collection, and we’re living in the 80′s, I’m sure you get by alright in contemporary British life.

    My name isn’t Alfie. So it’s a request not to call me that? Why you think I’m concerned about what strangers think of me regarding my name is delusional. Grow up.

  16. Alfred Ahmed — on 15th April, 2010 at 6:18 pm  

    *We’re NOT living in the 80′s.

  17. Dan Dare — on 15th April, 2010 at 6:22 pm  

    What you characters fail to recognise is how badly these overt displays of special pleading and ethnic rent-seeking go down with the Great British Public. It’s as if you like nothing better than to get up their collective nose.

  18. Kismet Hardy — on 15th April, 2010 at 6:22 pm  

    Sorry dude, I gave up on growing up a long time ago.

    And yup, I do think you’re concerned what strangers think. I think you don’t like to be tarnished with the same brush as Asians who like being Asian lest you seem as crude, backward and un(british)cultured as the way you perceive them

    Peace out bro. Innit?

    (Oh and Dan Dare. It’s sweet that you think the great british public elected you as spokesmen. Touching. In a touching my knob kinda way)

  19. Ravi Naik — on 15th April, 2010 at 6:50 pm  

    Whereas quite clearly Asian people are none of the above nor can they trace their lineage in their areas back to the Stone Age as 85% of the indigenous inhabitants of these regions can.

    In that case, until you present proof that the majority of your genes stem from these Isles since the Stone Age, and that you do not descend from Poles or Italians that immigrated to this country 300 years ago… don’t call yourself English.

  20. Jai — on 15th April, 2010 at 7:45 pm  

    The indigenous English population are descended from several genetically similar peoples – the earlier Britons (or Brythons), the Germanic tribes that settled in the area, including Angles, Saxons, Jutes, who founded what was to become England (from the Old English Engla-lond), and the later Norse Vikings and Normans.

    The Welsh are an indigenous group from an amalgamation of the earlier Britons (or Brythons) Celts and later Norse and Vikings

    The Germanic tribes, including Angles, Saxons and Jutes, were not indigenous to the British Isles. Norse Vikings and Normans were not indigenous to the British Isles either.

    Therefore, an person cannot be accurately described as “indigenous” if they are actually an amalgamation of both indigenous and non-indigenous ancestry.

    If a cut-off point for a person being “indigenous” is going to be set in the Neolithic period or even earlier, the only truly “indigenous” people currently living on the British Isles are those who are purely descended from Celts (a historical group which includes ‘Brythons’). Absolutely nobody else whose ancestry includes Angles, Saxons, Jutes and/or Norse Vikings and/or Normans, either partially or exclusively, could claim to be “ethnically indigenous to the British Isles”, because that is not what the term “indigenous” actually means. Especially if one is going to define the matter with references to the Stone Age, considering that all of the latter groups involved migrations to the British Isles far, far later, during the latter half of the first millennium AD and the early period of the second millennium AD respectively.

    A fact, not a slight.

    But then, given Nick Griffin’s repeated references to the last Ice Age allegedly having ended “17,000 years ago” during his appearance on the BBC’s Question Time panel last October, a scientifically-illiterate claim inaccurate by a ‘mere’ 4000-5000 years, historical accuracy clearly isn’t a particularly strong point amongst the BNP.

    But that’s not particularly surprising, considering that they’re effectively living in a 19th century psychological bubble, an era during which such falsified pseudo-scientific racial ideologies and historical fabrication were frequently par for the course and which is directly responsible for the modern-day far-Right. I wonder if they’re going to advocate phrenology next, or even the notion of bloodletting as an acceptable default medical treatment for most illnesses and medical disorders.

    I wouldn’t be surprised at that either, given the striking parallels with Al-Muhajiroun when it comes to their severely distorted and entirely obsolete global & historical worldview and unilateral claims to be spokesmen for what they term “their people”. Perhaps “Al-BNP” might be a far better name for them. Nick Griffin already has an identical voice and speaking style to Anjem Choudary.

  21. Alfred Ahmed — on 15th April, 2010 at 8:27 pm  

    I don’t perceive Asian’s like that, and thats ignoble for you to suggest I think like that. Putting words into my mouth I think.

    I suppose you are right to an extent. If strangers do perceive that all British Asian’s are the same than yes, I’m definitely concerned. My concern is the Asian Network being the self-elected spokesman for the British Asian community. Something I have repeatedly emphasized is that it does not represent a plural British Asian society.

    If you’ve bothered to read the strategy review, the BBC emphasizes this point themselves.

    “The increasing plurality and diversity of British Asian audiences are stretching the coherence and relevance of the service; its audience reach is in decline and its cost per listener is very high.”

    “the corporation remained committed to serving an Asian radio audience, but said the idea of a single station aimed at all Asian people in the UK reflected a “rather British” view that if you “come from the sub-continent … you must somehow be the same”

    are the exact quotes you’re looking for.

    I’m not a British Asian who concerns themselves with light Bollywood entertainment or DJ Nihal’s traditional discussions which are passed off as topical and relevant. Thats not the progression, and innovation we should be striving towards, not in the superficial sense of music, food or film.

  22. persephone — on 15th April, 2010 at 11:17 pm  

    Well Old Holborn has disappeared.

    IAE@11

    Yawn. We had this debate before on the other thread.
    You are an immigrant – its just a question of timing. We are all African. Get over it.

  23. Dan Dare — on 16th April, 2010 at 2:13 am  

    Ravi, Jai et al:

    I’m wondering why it is that you feel compelled to invest so much psychic effort in wanting to deny that indigenous Britons exist as a distinct ethnie. Is it because in acknowledging that to be the case it would in some way cast doubt upon your own legitimacy?

    Would you expend the same effort in attempting to show that indigenous Han, or Yoruba or Guarani do not exist? And what about India, which I take to be your own ancestral homeland. Would you take a similarly a similarly purist line and maintain that only Negritos can make a claim to indigenousness, and every one else from the Dravidians onward are merely immigrants and have no more right to settle there than anyone else who simply decides to turn up?

  24. Sunny — on 16th April, 2010 at 2:35 am  

    Holborn is usually banned for his bigoted comments, but in this case I brought it back.

    Back on Twitter he tells me he has mixed ethnic blood too. Which is nice, though he’s always going on about ‘bloody immigrants’ though. Typical of most immigrant bashers.

  25. Ravi Naik — on 16th April, 2010 at 11:06 am  

    I’m wondering why it is that you feel compelled to invest so much psychic effort in wanting to deny that indigenous Britons exist as a distinct ethnie.

    I think you will find that nobody is denying that there is a distinct English culture and ethnicity. Mainstream doesn’t, and I don’t.

    But let’s talk about the term “indigenous”. This is a term that the BNP is obsessed with, in order to enforce repatriation and an apartheid system for those that remain here. So this means that the term “indigenous” requires further scrutiny.

    When asked what “indigenous” meant, scholar Nick Griffin said “you just look and know”. He, also said that the English have a connection to this land since the Ice Age.

    Well, if you want to play the “indigenous” game to declare yourself English then you must go all the way. You need to prove that you do not have genes that are found outside the British Isles.

    So Dan and IAE: if you really believe that only the pure and those whose genes can trace back to these Isles since the Ice Age can be English, then you need to prove through genetic tests that you are indeed indigenous. Otherwise, you should consider yourselves as allegedly English.

  26. IAE — on 16th April, 2010 at 1:16 pm  

    Naik @ # 19

    Well I don’t actually have to prove anything to you my friend nor ask your permission to use my ethnic moniker of my birthright in my own country thank-you-very-much but I already commented on in the last thread I participated in on the fact that I had had a DNA test as a gift and the result was that I was of indigenous stock, even reproducing the results.

    You pitched to issue your usual baseless smears of “obvious lying about having done genetic tests” without of course explaining how you arrive at your arbitrary position or provide any proof.

    But then it was no surprise really as after being so vocal in demanding proof that the majority of rapes in Scandinavia and its capitals were committed by a non-western population of just 5% of the total populace and that as well as that massive explosion in the rape of woman over 18, the rape of children had risen 6 times in 20 years since mass non-western began in Sweden, after being provided lots of evidence you fell silent once more.

    Only reemerging to totally ignore it and call me a liar on another issue, without even a hint of proof.

  27. IAE — on 16th April, 2010 at 1:40 pm  

    Jai @ # 20

    Actually it is you who is displaying a profound ignorance of the realities and history of this issue, as well as a shocking failure to comprehend simple concepts and semantics.

    Not a slight, just a fact.

    Considering England did not exist until the country was formed and become a unified entity in AD 957 and so consequently the people now referred to as English did not either the reality is that my quote is perfectly correct:

    “The indigenous English population are descended from several genetically similar peoples – the earlier Britons (or Brythons), the Germanic tribes that settled in the area, including Angles, Saxons, Jutes, who founded what was to become England (from the Old English Engla-lond), and the later Norse Vikings and Normans.”

    The scientifically proven fact is that even with the formation of England and the absorption of genetically near identical groups as described above, the impact on these groups was still relatively small and the majority (around 85%) of the indigenous people from all of the British Isles are homogenous with a lineage traceable back to the Stone Age.

    You clearly don’t like that that is true, for reasons best know to yourself, but true it is nonetheless.
    Again, I provide a summary of the scientific proof below.

    But just to clarify the concept of ‘indigenous’ a little further for you, the status of the Māori as the indigenous people of NZ is undisputed and recognized in state and international law. The Māori have only been in NZ for around 700 years and are now a branch of the Polynesian ethnicity, having originally been largely Han Chinese and developed over time into the homogenous and indigenous people they now are.

    Compare their relatively short history in NZ and indisputable status to the history of the indigenous Britons and their status: We have a much better basis.

    Even the EHRC concedes that the British people are indigenous and recently used it as an argument that the proposed BNP constitution amendments indirectly discriminated against non-indigenous civic Britons.

    Professor of Human Genetics at the University of Oxford (and a Fellow of Wolfson College) Bryan Sykes, a world eminent scientist and expert proved through a systematic, ten-year DNA survey of more than 10,000 volunteers:

    * The genetic makeup of Britain and Ireland is overwhelmingly what it has been since the Neolithic period, and to a very considerable extent since the Mesolithic period, especially in the female line.

    * The contribution of the Celts of continental Europe to the genetic makeup of Britain and Ireland was minimal.

    * The Picts were not a separate people: the genetic makeup of the formerly Pictish areas of Scotland shows no significant differences from the general profile of the rest of Britain.

    * The Anglo-Saxons made a substantial contribution to the genetic makeup of England, but in Sykes’s opinion it was under 20 percent of the total, even in southern England.

    * The Vikings (Danes and Norwegians) also made a substantial contribution, which is concentrated in central, northern, and eastern England – the territories of the ancient Danelaw. There is a very heavy Viking contribution in the Orkney and Shetland Islands, in the vicinity of 40 percent. Women as well as men contributed substantially in all these areas, showing that the Vikings engaged in large-scale settlement.

    * The Norman contribution was extremely small, on the order of 2 percent.

    * There are only sparse traces of the Roman occupation, almost all in southern England.

    * In spite of all these later contributions, the genetic makeup of the British Isles remains overwhelmingly what it was in the Neolithic…

    http://books.google.com/books?id=KDPEteL4L5wC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s#v=onepage&q=&f=false

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Sykes

  28. IAE — on 16th April, 2010 at 1:50 pm  

    Persephone @ # 22

    “Yawn. We had this debate before on the other thread…You are an immigrant – its just a question of timing. We are all African. Get over it.”

    We did indeed and I proved to you then that we are not all “Africans” at all; the OOA theory is just, well, a theory and its central premise has already been discredited.

    You either overlooked it, ignored it, or couldn’t understand it so a summary for you is below.

    Additionally your woefully ignorant comprehension of what actually constitutes an “immigrant” is shocking and amusing in equal parts as you quite aggressively opine on such matters clearly without even a rudimentary grasp of the concepts.

    We are not “all Africans” at all; that is just another unproven theory taken by many as fact because it pushed by the establishment and it relies solely upon the bones they have being the definitive oldest, which given the size of this planet is most unlikely. Evidence to counter the theory emerges all the time, this was just the latest.

    “The conventional view of human evolution and how early man colonised the world has been thrown into doubt by a series of stunning palaeontological discoveries suggesting that Africa was not the sole cradle of humankind. Scientists have found a handful of ancient human skulls at an archaeological site two hours from the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, that suggest a Eurasian chapter in the long evolutionary story of man…”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/a-skull-that-rewrites-the-history-of-man-1783861.html

    No one knows where Homo Sapiens actually evolved; people just theorise. The main theory to rival OOA is the MR theory which has much evidence to support it; an extremely important piece you have seen already above

    Here is some more:

    “The discovery of an early human fossil in southern China may challenge the commonly held idea that modern humans originated out of Africa…”

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18093-chinese-challenge-to-out-of-africa-theory.html

    The whole of the OOA theory itself rests on just on one Skelton named Lucy! And in that that the theory has already been proven wrong when its premise is that Homo erectus marched out of Africa around a million years ago and that Georgian skull is 1.8 million years old!

  29. IAE — on 16th April, 2010 at 1:53 pm  

    Many extreme leftists and those others with vested interests also claim that out of Africa theory is ‘easily the best explanation for the lack of diversity within the modern human genome’ but the reality is that the human genome is in fact extremely diverse:

    “12 % of the DNA Differs Amongst Human Races and Populations: Till now, humans of different races were thought almost identical

    The Human Genome Project found all humans to have a 99.9 % similar genetic content and identity, but this is challenged by a new more detailed research suggesting a higher genetic diversity, with further medical and evolutionary implications…”

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/12-of-the-DNA-Differs-Amongst-Human-Races-and-Populations-40872.shtml

    “The genetic makeup of the human race is much more varied than previously believed, new research shows.

    Scientists say that surprisingly many large chunks of human DNA differ among individuals and ethnic groups…”

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061122-human-genetics.html

    “Geneticists are uncovering another level of human ethnic diversity: It may not be which genes we have so much as the way they behave that accounts for our differences. Using the International HapMap Project, which catalogs human gene variants across populations, University of Pennsylvania researchers Vivian Cheung and Richard Spielman first collected the gene sequences of a particular white blood cell from 82 Asians and 60 people of European descent. Then, using microarray chips, they measured expression levels of those genes.

    What they found was surprising: Although which genes were present didn’t differ dramatically between the Asians and the Europeans, their expression did. And that expression was governed by single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs)—one-letter changes in DNA¬—in nearby regulator regions that determine how much of a gene’s product is made.

    Overall, 25 percent of the genes seem to show different levels of expression in Asians versus Europeans, and SNPs in regulatory regions probably account for much of the difference.

    In the case of one gene, researchers found that Caucasians expressed it at 22 times the strength that Asians did.”

    http://discovermagazine.com/2007/may/is-there-a-genetic-basis-to-race-after-all

  30. Ravi — on 16th April, 2010 at 1:57 pm  

    Well I don’t actually have to prove anything to you my friend nor ask your permission to use my ethnic moniker of my birthright in my own country… had had a DNA test as a gift and the result was that I was of indigenous stock, even reproducing the results.

    Yes, I am afraid you do need to show up proof. You are the one coming here and talking about entitlement based on genetics. So, anyone who claims he is indigenous or English on the basis of having ancestors that lived here in these Isles for thousands of years, need to provide proof that they are not descendants from Poles (Nick Griffin hates them), Italians, Belgians and other non-indigenous types.

    So, until you provide convincing scientific proof… based on your definition of English, you will be known as IAAE, where the “A” stands for allegedly.

    But then it was no surprise really as after being so vocal in demanding proof… the rape of children had risen 6 times in 20 years since mass non-western began in Sweden, after being provided lots of evidence you fell silent once more.

    Actually, I did respond. I assumed you didn’t reply, because you were too busy whining about Dalbir’s rants.

    You have not provided proof that immigrants are responsible for the increase of paedophilia in Sweeden. And even if you believe that to be so, does this happen in the UK as well? If not, then why not? We do have a lot of immigrants in this country as well.

  31. Jai — on 16th April, 2010 at 4:08 pm  

    Although which genes were present didn’t differ dramatically between the Asians and the Europeans, their expression did. And that expression was governed by single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs)—one-letter changes in DNA—in nearby regulator regions that determine how much of a gene’s product is made.

    Overall, 25 percent of the genes seem to show different levels of expression in Asians versus Europeans, and SNPs in regulatory regions probably account for much of the difference.
    In the case of one gene, researchers found that Caucasians expressed it at 22 times the strength that Asians did.”

    The article is referring to “Asian” in the American sense of the term, ie. Chinese people etc, not “Asian” in the British sense of the term, ie. in relation to the Indian subcontinent.

    “12 % of the DNA Differs Amongst Human Races and Populations: Till now, humans of different races were thought almost identical

    The same article also explicitly states the following:

    The new data also shows that our species is so recent that the vast majority of CNVs, around 89 %, was found to be shared among the 269 people belonging to Mongoloid Race (Japanese and Chinese), African Negroid (Yoruba Nigerians) and Caucasoid (of Northern and Western European ancestry). But there are also widespread specific differences in CNVs according to the race and even inside the same race according to population (geographical origin).

    Meaning:

    1. Human beings from different geographical backgrounds have far, far more in common than areas of difference.

    2. There are simultaneously considerable differences between people from the same “race” too.

    Ultimately it depends on whether you want to unite human beings or keep subdividing them further and further. You may as well keep splitting populations into ever-smaller hermetically-sealed, mutually-exclusive, increasingly parochial identity-based subgroups if you’re going to take that line of logic.

    In fact, the same website also contains the following article, detailing how Southern Europeans can themselves be regarded as a genetically different group to Northern Europeans :

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Nothern-Europeans-Differ-From-Southern-Europeans-35702.shtml

    Again, it depends on whether the priority is to unite or to divide. I’ll let you decide which is the better perspective to have in life and the more constructive course of action to take in the grand scheme of things.

  32. Jai — on 16th April, 2010 at 4:20 pm  

    I’m wondering why it is that you feel compelled to invest so much psychic effort in wanting to deny that indigenous Britons exist as a distinct ethnie.

    Again, if one is going to use the Neolithic period as a historical cut-off point, the only genuinely indigenous Britons are those exclusively descended from Celts. Absolutely everyone else who either partially or exclusively has any other ancestry, even if it is from mainland Europe, cannot logically claim to be “indigenous” to the British Isles as per the actual definition of the term.

    You’re incorrectly using the term “psychic” too, incidentally. The word doesn’t actually mean what you appear to think it does, based on the context of your remark.

    Is it because in acknowledging that to be the case it would in some way cast doubt upon your own legitimacy?

    We certainly don’t have a problem with acknowledging it. But it only applies to people exclusively descended from Celts.

    Clearly, you feel compelled to invest so much psychological effort in wanting to deny the above because it casts doubt on your own legitimacy.

    And what about India, which I take to be your own ancestral homeland. Would you take a similarly a similarly purist line and maintain that only Negritos can make a claim to indigenousness,

    Technically, yes.

    and every one else from the Dravidians onward are merely immigrants

    Not “merely”, but yes everyone else from the Dravidians onward are descended from immigrants. (Note the use of the word “descended”. If someone is born in a particular part of the world, they are not actually an immigrant to that region. Again, “immigrant” doesn’t actually mean what you appear to think it does either).

    and have no more right to settle there than anyone else who simply decides to turn up?

    On the contrary. People are welcome to settle in India irrespective of their “ethnicity” or ancestry. In fact, due to the numerous arrivals in the subcontinent over the millennia, the majority of Indians are an amalgamation of different ancestral groups to varying degrees, and this is similarly reflected in the country’s cultural diversity along with the core political & pluralistic cultural ethos of India post-1947 as officially reflected in its political constitution (essentially based on the same principle as the United States, ie. “Out of Many, One”). As far as mainstream Indian culture is concerned, even the notion of “being Indian” isn’t predicated on some claim of one’s ancestry in the region allegedly being traceable to the Neolithic period, or even ancestry in the subcontinent being traceable to a few centuries in the past (let alone millennia).

    The only groups in India who really object to all this and take the same line of thinking that you do, of course, are the Shiv Sena and their leader Bal Thackeray along with other fringe groups such as the RSS and the Bajrang Dal. Dubious bedfellows indeed for the BNP, but the parallels continue to mount.

    The subcontinent’s ability to successfully absorb and embrace both peoples and influences from other parts of the world has been one of its strengths for thousands of years; something most English people formally or informally associated with the East India Company who had dealings with India for centuries since the reigns of Akbar and Jahangir were fully aware of and admired greatly, reinforced by the eagerness of most of them to embrace Indian culture, customs and attire, and also frequently marry Indian women. Not to mention the similarly respectful attitudes towards the subcontinent and South Asians in general (including “all things Indian”) which had traditionally been the norm in mainstream society here in Britain at all levels, not only since the re-initiation of European contact with India for the first time since the fall of the Western Roman Empire approximately a thousand years earlier but at the very least since Britain’s incorporation into the Roman Empire during the classical era (Rome and classical Greece both had extensive contact with India themselves and highly positive attitudes towards its various peoples, of course).

    Until the rise of fundamentalist Evangelical Christian fanaticism followed by entirely fabricated racial theories based on the perversion of scientific concepts and designed to classify human beings according to notions of division and hierarchy (something Charles Darwin himself forcefully opposed) along with large-scale social re-engineering in Britain from the end of the 18th century onwards; a process of escalating propaganda, historical revisionism and full-scale radicalisation which was observed over the decades with mounting horror by huge numbers of British people involved with India, and recorded extensively by them with the same level of dismay and revulsion exhibited by more enlightened Iranians and Afghans who witnessed the rise of Ayatollah Khomenei’s regime and the Taliban respectively.

    Don’t believe me ? It’s backed up by a truly colossal level of fully-authenticated historical records from British military, administrative/government, commercial, civilian and religious sources stretching back for centuries, and unequivocally confirmed by acclaimed modern-day historians as diverse as Niall Ferguson and William Dalrymple.

    Unfortunately, it would currently be difficult for your cognitive faculties to grasp that, because you’re a product of the same type of propaganda-driven radicalisation and brainwashing which is also afflicting members & supporters of Al-Muhajiroun and Al-Qaeda.

    But I digress. I’d like to pick up on a couple of complimentary remarks you made about Hitler on the now-closed thread:

    Please provide full details on further policies and actions authorised by Adolf Hitler which you admire and which the BNP should directly emulate. Since you have publicly made these remarks on a globally-accessible website, presumably it should also not be an issue for the BNP leadership to formally & publicly declare direct inspiration from various aspects of Hitler’s ideology and activities, including the usage of Hitler on campaign posters as per the recent attempts to use Jesus in a similar manner, eg. “What would Hitler do ? Vote BNP”.

  33. IAE — on 16th April, 2010 at 4:47 pm  

    Naik @ # 30

    “Yes, I am afraid you do need to show up proof…”

    You can demand all you want my friend, I couldn’t care less.

    You really don’t get it at all do you? The English people do not have to prove anything to non-English people in England; nor do they have to justify their existence or pander to anyone coming here in any way.

    And you really just don’t get how incredibly offensive that is to us and how much animosity it attracts.

    I can just imagine the reaction I would get if I went to India etc and demanded similar justifications
    In any case, I have already proven that I am indigenous with the DNA results posted and you still haven’t managed to explain how you can so boldly clam that I am “lying” without any basis in reality or any proof whatsoever, which pretty much makes you the actual liar here.

    Actually, I did respond. I assumed you didn’t reply, because you were too busy whining about Dalbir’s rants.

    Oh yes, I see it now and I do find it interesting that my objection to anti-English racism is deemed as “whining.”

    Well on the first part of your ‘demands’ for the evidence that the 5% immigrant populace were responsible for the majority of rape in Scandinavia and its cities I produced evidence comprehensively, with, for example, an incredible 68% of all rapes in Denmark being committed by immigrants, Muslims in fact (as well as being over-represented in all crime by an average of 46% and in Copenhagen 47.5% of prisoners on remand for serious crimes) and 2 out of 3 charged with rape in Oslo being a non-western immigrant and even more shockingly EVERY case of aggravated sexual assault ending in rape over the past three years was committed by non-western immigrants along with the fact that in Sweden it was found that a rapist was four times more likely to have been born abroad – with Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia dominating the group of rape suspects and that non-western immigrants were responsible for 25% of all crime in Sweden.

    A compelling argument for a pattern there: All three countries all around 5% of their populace made up from non-western immigrants; all three countries rape rates explode exponontionaly in 20 years; all three countries see non-western immigrants responsible for the majority of rapes in the state (or Capital in Norway’s case)…

    And the rape of children also increase six fold in 20 years since this mass immigration of non-westerners into Sweden began and then another two fold increase within the decade again.

    But it has nothing to do with non-western immigrants at all; purely coincidence the timing that it should increase beyond comprehension along with the national rape rate just as they arrive!

    “And even if you believe that to be so, does this happen in the UK as well?”

    Yes, very much so; particularly amongst the Asian community but the police are afraid to deal with it and the media are constrained.

    A very revealing documentary by C4 on the endemic Asian grooming of white female children called “Edge of the City” was initially pulled on the demand of the police.

    This report conveys the nature of this problem in the UK:

    “A hidden world in which Asian men “groom” young white girls for sex has been exposed with the jailing yesterday of two men for child-abuse offences…

    The trial came amid growing concern at the attitudes of some Asian men towards white girls which campaigners for women claim few people wish to address.

    Parents have complained that in parts of the country with large Asian communities white girls as young as 12 are being targeted for sex by older Asian men yet the authorities are unwilling to act because of fears of being labelled racist.

    Ann Cryer, a Labour member of the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee, has been at the forefront of attempting to tackle the problem after receiving complaints from mothers in her constituency about young Asian men targeting their under-age daughters.

    Although campaigners claim that hundreds of young girls are already being passed around men within the Asian community for sex, she said that attempts to raise the problem with community leaders had met with little success, with most of them being in a state of denial about it….

    Parents claim that criminal networks are able to prey on young girls because the authorities are reluctant to tackle the issue for fear of upsetting race relations in areas of the North West with large ethnic minority communities.

    However, Ms Cryer added: “I think there is a problem with the view Asian men generally have about white women. Their view about white women is generally fairly low. They do not seem to understand that there are white girls as moral and as good as Asian girls.”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2237940.ece

  34. IAE — on 16th April, 2010 at 5:20 pm  

    Jai @ # 31

    “The article is referring to “Asian” in the American sense of the term, ie. Chinese people etc, not “Asian” in the British sense of the term, ie. in relation to the Indian subcontinent”

    Nowhere in the article I linked to does it mention that they mean Asian in the “US” sense it actually says they “collected the gene sequences of a particular white blood cell from 82 Asians and 60 people of European descent.”

    Your conflation of the facts is erroneous, in any case, as already explained for instance, although the tribes who formed the country of England are racially akin to the others in Northern Europe (The Norse pertain to “Germanic” stock; the Normans are the Norseman, the Angles, Jutes and Saxons were the same race spread in different tribes etc) there are subtle differences to our kin elsewhere as the article explained due to “natural selection favored subtle variants allowing different humans populations to adapt to their different environments, with specific climate, pathogens, and food resources.”

    The differences between the races are immense at just 12% but as science advances, it is discovering more and more that the gulf is much wider and encompasses many factors, and remember that it was only little over a decade ago that the completely false Human Genome project declared that the races shared 99.9% similarity.

    We now know that genes influence many abilities. We also know that some of these genes vary considerably in prevalence between ethnic groups. One example is the RR variant of ACTN3, a gene that affects fast generation of muscular force and correlates with excellence at speed and power sports.

    The opposite variant of the gene is called XX. Tests indicate that the ratio of people with RR to people with XX is 1 to 1 among Asians, 2 to 1 among European whites, and more than 4 to 1 among African-Americans.

    You get the same pattern for testosterone, Chinese have lower levels than Europeans, who in turn have lower average levels than Africans.

    These differences are statistically significant.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741

    And to show it is not about ‘superiority’ but about science and truth, another other group pattern is that Chinese average above whites on IQ.

    Recent studies provides examples of localized evolution of cognitive function. For instance, the protein encoded by DAB1 plays a developmental role in the layering of neurons in the cerebral cortex and cerebellum [37], and exhibits strong evidence for a selective sweep in the Asian sample.

    http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030090

    Another discovery is the low activity variant of MAO-A. This, an enzyme has been found to be associated with a broad range of antisocial phenotypes, including physical violence.

    “This variant (or genotype) of monoamine oxidase-A was over-represented in a small sample of current Māori.This supported earlier studies that there are different proportions of variants in different ethnic groups. This is the case for many genetic variants, with 33% White/Non-Hispanic, 61% Asian/Pacific Islanders having the shorter promoter variant of the MAO-A gene”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_A

    “Ultimately it depends on whether you want to unite human beings or keep subdividing them further and further”

    Well, as you can see has nothing to do with that my friend, and neither does reality and truth.
    It is scientific fact and science is not concerned with political goals.

    In fact, if anything, pointing out our huge racial difference is a real celebration of diversity and you should be celebrating it and supporting it with me, not trying your (ineffectual) best to destroy diversity.

  35. IAE — on 16th April, 2010 at 5:28 pm  

    Jai @ # 32

    And far be it from me to answer on behalf of the vastly more knowledgeable Dan, but your erroneous concept of what ‘indigenous’ actually means has been pulled apart in # 27 as has your bizarre instance that..

    “the only genuinely indigenous Britons are those exclusively descended from Celts”

    … and by the worlds most eminent scientist in the field no less.

    By the way, didn’t I read somewhere that the Indians building a wall to keep people they don’t like or want out?

  36. Lightan — on 16th April, 2010 at 5:55 pm  

    The Asian Network is not even under threat.

    Mark Thompson’s proposal is to keep it running in the 5 areas of the UK that hold 80% of the Asian population, so what is there to save?

    Petitions won’t do anything. What the Asian Network needed was new ideas to attract listeners over the last 5 years. Instead they blew £60 million and had nothing to show for it at the end.

    If all it took to #saveasiannetwork was a bit of rabble rousing at melas they would have saved it by now, given the money they spent on sponsoring every 2-bit mela in the country!

  37. Dan Dare — on 16th April, 2010 at 6:52 pm  

    @Jai – I’m wondering it might be worthwhile splitting out the posts about indigenousness into a separate thread.

  38. Ravi — on 16th April, 2010 at 6:56 pm  

    You can demand all you want my friend, I couldn’t care less… And you really just don’t get how incredibly offensive that is to us and how much animosity it attracts… In any case, I have already proven that I am indigenous with the DNA results posted

    I did notice that you get offended very easily, IAAE. But you brought this on yourself. And if you can’t care less about living up to your indigenous crap, don’t expect us either. And you never posted your DNA results nor did you tell us which organisation you performed your tests.

    And the rape of children also increase six fold in 20 years since this mass immigration of non-westerners into Sweden began and then another two fold increase within the decade again.

    But it has nothing to do with non-western immigrants at all; purely coincidence the timing that it should increase beyond comprehension along with the national rape rate just as they arrive!

    So you just take two events and form a causality link between them without any proof. So it is plain old racist smear. I also hear that the number of racist nationalists have grown in Sweden – does it have to do with the increase of pedophilia?

    This is not Stormfront, IAAE where your crap is accepted at face value.

  39. persephone — on 16th April, 2010 at 11:13 pm  

    IAAE
    AS to proof, no you have not provided it ands you did not answer the following:

    “Surely you had an ancestry test? One dna agency states: “ the ancient world also had its own share of migrations—modern humans originated in East Africa roughly 200,000 years ago, and moved through the Fertile Crescent in the Middle East to populate Europe, Asia, and the rest of the world. You are the product of both ancient and recent migrations—and you can discover these influences through our DNA test. How much of 4 founding populations can be found in your DNA today: European, East Asian, Sub-Saharan African, and Native
    American. “

    I asked for how you test it since the time frames as to when ‘indigenous’ is judged seems to differ. You say stone age, nick griffin says ice age and another bnp ‘stalwart’ claimed that the populace of GB should be the mix prior to the 1950’s. Confusion reigns amongst those who talk about being indigenous.”

  40. Dan Dare — on 17th April, 2010 at 6:55 am  

    testing

  41. Dan Dare — on 17th April, 2010 at 7:07 am  

    I attempted to post this piece several hours ago, but when it never appeared I assumed that Sunny had wielded his banning stick again. It seems I was mistaken in which case an apology is due. Sorry Sunny.

    ****

    Well I think one thing needs to be cleared up straight away. Nick Griffin’s pronouncements on QT regarding indigenousness should not be taken literally. The truth of the matter is that he was poorly briefed and ended up floundering around, making injudicious claims. It incorrect to claim to claim that the re-population of the British Isles commenced 17 kya and it is also incorrect to state to claim that most Britons can claim descent from the autochthonous hunter-gatherers who emerged from the Ice Age refugia and spread over much of western Europe in the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. Now that Griffin’s claims have been dismissed, let’s look at the actual situation as revealed by contemporary population genetics and forensic archaeology.

    The first evidence for the post-LGM (re-)inhabitation of Britain is now generally held to be the so-called Cresswellian culture, named after Cresswell Crags in Derbyshire, and dated to around 12.5 kya. It is most probable these hunter-gatherer settlers were descended from people who left the Franco-Cantabrian refugium after the ice age. Although not yet proven scientifically, the preponderance of the evidence indicates that they were also the descendants of the Cro-magnon people who populated much of Europe prior to the last ice age. So if we choose to interpret indigenous as meaning ‘first on the scene’, then the UP Creswellians and their descendants are probably the real indigenous Britons, just as negritos are the real indigenous Indians.

    So the question then arises, who are the descendants of the Cresswellians amongst the present native British population? The short answer is that we don’t really know, but it is close to a racing certainty that the Cro-Magnons and the post-glacial western and northern European hunter-gatherers as well as the people who constructed the Mesolithic and early Neolithic megaliths found throughout the region, were all members of the same partilineal lineage, represented by Y-hg I and, in particular sub-group I1a. The rationale for this claim is that I is the only haplogroup still present in western Europe which is known to pre-date the LGM, and is also probably the only Y-haplogroup that originates in Europe itself. About 14% of British males are members of I1, and a further 2-3% are members of the closely related I2b group. Thus, on the basis of first in = indigenous, some 16-17% of British males could make that claim.

    The next wave, or really successive waves, of incomers from the continent took place in the early-to-mid Neolithic, continuing into the bronze and iron ages, and it is this influx which has left the greatest genetic imprint on the British population. Around 70-85% of the male population (depending on the country; less in England, more in Ireland) have the patrilineal ancestry defined by the Y-hg R1b. This influx, which we call today the ‘Celts’ continued on and off for over two thousand years, although Celt is something of a misnomer since many of the so-called ‘Anglo-Saxons’ who migrated from NW Europe between 500BC and 500AD were also R1b. A better term to describe this group as a whole might be Celto-Germanic, since that emphasises their common genetic origin in the Pontic steppe area but delineates their evolved cultures and linguistic differentiation within the greater Indo-European category.

    Along with the R1b Anglo-Saxons also came a significant influx of ‘pre-celto-germanics’, members of Y-hg I2b. These people, like the I1a population of Britain were descendants of the hunter-gatherers who emerged from the Franco-Cantabrian refugium in the late UP. About 4-5% of British males are members of Y-hg I2b

    The next (and last) sizeable (ie measurable) wave of migration occurred in the 8th and 9th century, namely the Viking incursions from Scandinavia principally from what is now Denmark and southern Norway. They brought the northern European patrilineal Y-Hg R1a which, like its central European counterpart R1b, originated in what is now southern Ukraine.

    At this point we can draw a line, since by the time of the creation of England as a unitary nation-state in the early 10th century its genetic profile was established, and would remain essentially unaltered for over a thousand years until the Afro-Asian influx of the last two generations. But what about the Normans, I hear you say. Well, in the first instance, they were very few of them, and they were an admixture of R1a and R1b. Flemish weavers? R1b. Huguenots? R1b. Dutch fen-drainers? R1b.

    So there we have it. Some 95% of British males have a patrilineage which dates back over a thousand years. On the matrilineal side the picture is also one of long term stability following the LGM. Mt-haplogroups present in Britain are also of great antiquity, and some 85% of the population share one of three main haplo-metagroups: HV, UK and TJ. Some of these (H and V) probably derive from the post-LGM re-population by UP hunter-gathers, others such as U5a are of Mesolithic origin, while U3-4/K and JT are of Indo-European origin and appear first during the Neolithic. But whatever the original source, each of these has been present in British Isles for many miillenia.

    Based on the foregoing it is then reasonable to for anyone who is member of Y-Hg I1a, I2b, R1a or Rib and/or Mt-Hg HV, U3-5/K or JT to claim indigenous status. A simple and inexpensive DNA test will easily answer the question either way.

    If all this is too coldly scientific than it should be possible to enlist the good old standbys, the Mk I eyeball and lughole which would I should have thought deliver the correct answer with a 95% confidence level. If something in-between is felt to be more appropriate then the ‘1948 test’ could be applied or, slightly more rigorous, resort could be made to the national registers of birth, marriages and deaths which go back to 1837.

    More than one way to skin a cat, obviously.

    And to return full-circle to the starting point, it’s instructive to note that in its new constitution the BNP has jettisoned all the ice age nonsense and now defines Indigenous Briton as follows:

    “Indigenous British” means together that group of nations and or communities historically indigenous to our British Homeland, being the first and aboriginal peoples of our British Homeland, and which group consists of the English, the Irish, the Ulster Scots, the Scots, and the Welsh racial groups and any sub sects of the same; and which racial groups it is believed by many are referred to as the British and Irish ethnic groups in the ethnic group categories used for the purposes of the 2001 Census for England and Wales;
    …
    For the purpose of our Constitution the phrase “historically indigenous” means those racial groups whose collective, common or shared ancestors are continuously traceable or are bona fide believed by members of such racial groups to be continuously traceable back in the case of:-

    3.1 the Indigenous British, in our British Homeland before the commencement of the time of legal memory;

  42. Dan Dare — on 17th April, 2010 at 7:09 am  

    Well I think one thing needs to be cleared up straight away. Nick Griffin’s pronouncements on QT regarding indigenousness should not be taken literally. The truth of the matter is that he was poorly briefed and ended up floundering around, making injudicious claims. It incorrect to claim to claim that the re-population of the British Isles commenced 17 kya and it is also incorrect to state to claim that most Britons can claim descent from the autochthonous hunter-gatherers who emerged from the Ice Age refugia and spread over much of western Europe in the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. Now that Griffin’s claims have been dismissed, let’s look at the actual situation as revealed by contemporary population genetics and forensic archaeology.

    The first evidence for the post-LGM (re-)inhabitation of Britain is now generally held to be the so-called Cresswellian culture, named after Cresswell Crags in Derbyshire, and dated to around 12.5 kya. It is most probable these hunter-gatherer settlers were descended from people who left the Franco-Cantabrian refugium after the ice age. Although not yet proven scientifically, the preponderance of the evidence indicates that they were also the descendants of the Cro-magnon people who populated much of Europe prior to the last ice age. So if we choose to interpret indigenous as meaning ‘first on the scene’, then the UP Creswellians and their descendants are probably the real indigenous Britons, just as negritos are the real indigenous Indians.

    So the question then arises, who are the descendants of the Cresswellians amongst the present native British population? The short answer is that we don’t really know, but it is close to a racing certainty that the Cro-Magnons and the post-glacial western and northern European hunter-gatherers as well as the people who constructed the Mesolithic and early Neolithic megaliths found throughout the region, were all members of the same partilineal lineage, represented by Y-hg I and, in particular sub-group I1a. The rationale for this claim is that I is the only haplogroup still present in western Europe which is known to pre-date the LGM, and is also probably the only Y-haplogroup that originates in Europe itself. About 14% of British males are members of I1, and a further 2-3% are members of the closely related I2b group. Thus, on the basis of first in = indigenous, some 16-17% of British males could make that claim.

    The next wave, or really successive waves, of incomers from the continent took place in the early-to-mid Neolithic, continuing into the bronze and iron ages, and it is this influx which has left the greatest genetic imprint on the British population. Around 70-85% of the male population (depending on the country; less in England, more in Ireland) have the patrilineal ancestry defined by the Y-hg R1b. This influx, which we call today the ‘Celts’ continued on and off for over two thousand years, although Celt is something of a misnomer since many of the so-called ‘Anglo-Saxons’ who migrated from NW Europe between 500BC and 500AD were also R1b. A better term to describe this group as a whole might be Celto-Germanic, since that emphasises their common genetic origin in the Pontic steppe area but delineates their evolved cultures and linguistic differentiation within the greater Indo-European category.

    Along with the R1b Anglo-Saxons also came a significant influx of ‘pre-celto-germanics’, members of Y-hg I2b. These people, like the I1a population of Britain were descendants of the hunter-gatherers who emerged from the Franco-Cantabrian refugium in the late UP. About 4-5% of British males are members of Y-hg I2b

    The next (and last) sizeable (ie measurable) wave of migration occurred in the 8th and 9th century, namely the Viking incursions from Scandinavia principally from what is now Denmark and southern Norway. They brought the northern European patrilineal Y-Hg R1a which, like its central European counterpart R1b, originated in what is now southern Ukraine.

    Continued in Part II

  43. IAE — on 17th April, 2010 at 4:44 pm  

    Naik @ # 38

    But you brought this on yourself.

    I see the dishonesty just flows from you my friend; that and complete arrogance.

    Like I said, I couldn’t care less what demands you think you have the authority and right to demand from the people who’s country and ancestral homeland you are residing in and like I said you have no idea whatsoever just how much people like you and your arrogant and offensive demands push up support for the BNP; at least people like Dalbir are up front about their anti-English racism, you try and hide it behind demands to justify our existence.

    And you never posted your DNA results

    Just more smoke to obscure your obvious dishonesty in accusing me of lying without providing reason or proof.
    Contrary to your latest lie, I did indeed post the results of the DNA test on that thread @ # 469.

    I did it from memory and with a little help because the test was a gift some time back and the documents are not in my current location but I have asked the presenter to confirm and also the company used was Oxford Ancestors Ltd (owned and administered by the world eminent Professor Sykes of above.)

    So where do you go next now on your path of deceit and distraction?

    “So you just take two events and form a causality link between them without any proof.”

    I provided plenty of proof that non-western immigrants are responsible for the majority of rapes of woman over 15 in Scandinavia states and cities and that the rape has risen massively and exponontionaly over the past 20 years since the mass arrival of non-western immigrants.

    The sheer impact of non-western immigrants on the rape rate of Scandinavia was posted with all the links in that thread @ # 406:

    In Denmark non-westerners committed 68% of all rapes, and it was revealed that non-westerners were over-represented in all crime by an average of 46% and in Copenhagen 47.5% of prisoners on remand for serious crimes were non-western. In Norway it was found that two out of three charged with rape in Oslo were non-western and that every case of aggravated sexual assault ending in rape over the past three years was committed by non-western immigrants, whilst in Sweden it was found that a rapist was four times more likely to have been born abroad – with Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia. dominating the group of rape suspects and that non-whites were responsible for 25% of all crime in Sweden.

    So we can clearly see that non-western immigrants dominate the rape rate now. We also know that mass non-western immigration into Scandinavia only began in the last 20 years.

    So all given the facts above, all we have to do is establish a firm pattern (already done in who commits the majority of rape) as to the rise of the rape rate since this non-western influx to find that it runs in tandem with the flow of non-western immigration leading to their dominance of the rape rate and a much higher incidence.

    Despite the Swedish government being unwilling to tell its people the truth about the real effects of their social experiment, various MSM reports verify the facts:

    “rape and attempted rape has trebled in the last twenty years. These figures are where the victims were 15 years or older. Among children under 15 – has rape has increaded six-fold…”

    http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article326023.ab

    “In December, publishes Crime Prevention Council, good, for the first time in ten years a study on immigrants’ overrepresentation in crime statistics. Half are immigrants.”

    http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article327666.ab

    “Sexual crime and rape curves upwards throughout most of the last decade, new statistics show far from the National Crime Prevention Council…

    Never since the rescheduling of good statistics in the early 90′s has so many outdoor rape – rape, assault – been reported as last year.”

    http://www.sydsvenskan.se/malmo/article89626.ece

  44. IAE — on 17th April, 2010 at 4:49 pm  

    Cont’d

    “That shows the lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm, who on a mission by the Crime Prevention Council has investigated violent crimes in Svea high court … the convicted rapists that are included in her study about half of the cases lived under socially normal cases. 85 per cent was born in foreign soil or by parents from foreign soil”

    http://www.dn.se/ledare/signerat/en-riktig-valdtaktsman-1.407102

    “Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe – twice as many as “runner up” the UK, a new study shows.”

    http://www.thelocal.se/19102/

    So Naik, plenty of proof once again that since the mass immigration of non-western immigrants into Sweden, the rape rate of over 15’s has at least quadrupled and non-western immigrants are responsible for half and then the majority at varying intervals and so it naturally follows in that pattern that they are also responsible for the increase in the rape of children, that is under 15, unless you seriously want to contend that it one massive coincidence, given the facts.

    In fact let’s look at Norway and the explosion of its rape rate and who is responsible too just to further establish the pattern:

    “Two out of three charged with rape in Norway’s capital are immigrants with a non-western…The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.

    Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year. Police Inspector Gunnar Larsen of Oslo’s Vice, Robbery and Violent crime division says the statistics are surprising – the rising number of rape cases and the link to ethnic background are both clear trends.”

    http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

    “Nearly 300 women have sought help so far this year from Oslo’s emergency clinic handling rape victims. That’s a higher per capita rate than New York City’s, and the clinic is having trouble meeting demand.

    The clinic (voldtektsmottak) at the emergency hospital known as Legevakt has never had so many rape victims to treat. Its ability to care for them all is being severely tested…

    The growth in the number of rapes is dramatic,” said Sylvi Listhaug, the politician in charge of health issues on the Oslo City Council. “It makes me angry, and worried about the young women of our city.”

    http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1567514.ece

  45. IAE — on 17th April, 2010 at 4:53 pm  

    Cont’d

    And in Denmark, with 68% of the rape rate being non-western immigrants:

    “NULL Alarmed at last week’s police statistics, which revealed that in 68% of all rapes committed this year the perpetrator was from an ethnic minority, leading Muslim organisations have now formed an alliance to fight the ever-growing problem of young second and third-generation immigrants involved in rape cases against young Danish girls.”

    http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/27877.html

    We also find out the attitudes of the Muslim hierarchy on these rapes, and of how they think the Danish people should submit to Islam and alien ways too:

    “An Islamic mufti in Copenhagen has sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are “asking for rape.”

    http://jimball.com.au/features/Political%20%20uproar%20over%20mufti%27s%20rmearks%20-The%20Copenhagen%20Post.htm

    “I also hear that the number of racist nationalists have grown in Sweden”

    Are you really surprised?

    Given that the chance of their daughters being raped has quadrupled since mass non-western immigration into Sweden began 20 years ago and there is a strong chance that they could be gang raped too (a crime virtually unheard of 20 years ago) as well at least a quarter of all crimes being commited by non-western immigrants with that rate massively rising as well is it really any wonder?

    Especially when just like in the rest of Europe, no one asked them if they wanted mass non-western immigration in the first place or even if they want it to continue now.

    Plenty are running away from the problem too. Fleeing thier own country.Though it is hard to imagine now where they could go that would be any better.

    “Immigration to Sweden in 2006 reached its highest level since records began. At the same time emigration also soared to a level not seen in over 100 years, according to official figures published by Statistics Sweden.”

    http://www.thelocal.se/article.php?ID=6412

    “This is not Stormfront”

    Wouldn’t know, never been on it my friend, although you seem to know a lot about it.

    “where your crap is accepted at face value”

    No, it’s your crap and the other self-affirmers crap is accepted at face value here and factual evidence results in insults and charges of “Nazism.”

    Incidentally, what say you now about the endemic Asian pedophile problem in my country? You seem to have gone silent on this now…

  46. Ravi Naik — on 17th April, 2010 at 6:09 pm  

    Like I said, I couldn’t care less what demands you think you have the authority and right to demand from the people who’s country and ancestral homeland

    IAAE: You (and the BNP) have given the definition of English and indigenous: to be a proper English, your genes need to match the the people who resided in these Isles back in the Ice Age. Now the only way to find out for sure if you are indigenous – and that you do not have Polish, Italian and Belgium genes – is through genetic tests from a reputable lab. And I would expect nothing less from you, Dan “Ãœbermensch” Dare, Nick Griffin and everyone who thinks they have the authority to repatriate others over genetics.

    If you want people to take you seriously, let’s take your rhetoric all the way. No more, no less. And if that offends you, you need to develop a thicker skin or a more coherent rhetoric. It’s up to you. You’ll know where to find me.

    So Naik, plenty of proof once again that since the mass immigration of non-western immigrants into Sweden…so it naturally follows in that pattern that they are also responsible for the increase in the rape of children, that is under 15, unless you seriously want to contend that it one massive coincidence, given the facts.

    No IAAE, it does not naturally follow that immigrants increased the rape of infants. You said you had proof, but you haven’t provided one single link. Funny how you have so much proof of one event, but none of another… but you feel that one naturally follows the other.

    It’s a racist smear. But you know that.

    Incidentally, what say you now about the endemic Asian pedophile problem in my country? You seem to have gone silent on this now…

    Let’s first agree on two things. The first is that pedophilia is a heinous crime and second that there are pedophiles of all ethnic minorities in this country.

    Now, can you please elaborate on why you qualify pedophilia perpetrated by Asians as “endemic”? Are you saying that Asians disproportionately commit more pedophilia crimes than others? Or are you saying that they are more predisposed to commit that sort of thing?
    I would like some numbers that back up the “endemic” qualifier. I would hate to think that you are throwing another racist smear.

  47. Ros — on 17th April, 2010 at 6:13 pm  

    Asian pedophile prpblem?
    Which country?

    Please tell us more.

    By the way, the original subject (Saving the BBC Asian Network) has been drowned out. Not missed anyway.

  48. Dalbir — on 17th April, 2010 at 6:14 pm  

    Wasn’t worth the bother to comment…..

  49. IAE — on 17th April, 2010 at 6:47 pm  

    Ros @ # 46

    Why are you asking questions when you obviously haven’t bothered to read the comments already passed in this debate that would have allowed you to answer you own query autonomously? Clearly, you really can’t be that interested in this debate or an answer.

    And this debate, like all others transmutes organically as people respond to comments left by others, although Dan did suggest that a devoted thread to the emerging theme of this process, but it hasn’t transpired.

    Dalbir @ # 47

    “Wasn’t worth the bother to comment…..”

    And yet you did bother to comment anyway on the fact that you felt it wasn’t worth commenting?! What did you feel you achieved with this?

    And after your last racist anti-English outburst and subsequent exposed deceit it is probably as well that you exercise caution in further expressing your beliefs and opining on such matters.

  50. Ros — on 17th April, 2010 at 7:06 pm  

    IAE #48:
    I will say that your comments are very reasonable. It is ture I haven’t kept track of the stream of comments – it’s a bother to go back 30 or 40 comments back.
    I am kindly requesting you to indulge tardy people like myself and summarise the tone amd tenor of the debate so far. What has been agreed and what contested?
    (I think that in a long series of comments, it would help later arrivals if someone were to deliver a precis of the discussion so far. Would you, IAE?)

  51. Dalbir — on 17th April, 2010 at 7:24 pm  

    And after your last racist anti-English outburst and subsequent exposed deceit it is probably as well that you exercise caution in further expressing your beliefs and opining on such matters.

    Look whose talking. The person that is falling over himself to prove what a unique bunch the English are. Who are you to talk of racism when you yourself quiver petrified at the thought of changes to the ‘pure English DNA’, like a true fucking nazi. What’s your next suggestion? The systematic destruction of those that fail to meet your criteria to preserve this precious pure blood?

    You talk as if your people are about to vanish off the face of the earth due to migration. Calm yourself down FFS.

    Incidentally, what say you now about the endemic Asian pedophile problem in my country? You seem to have gone silent on this now…

    That statement is just so dumb considering the known paedo/sex tourism problem from Europe to the third world. What have you got to say about that?

    Anyway, rock on BBC Asian Network! lol

  52. IAE — on 17th April, 2010 at 8:15 pm  

    Dalbir @ # 50

    Well, no real surprise Dalbir that you launch into yet another expletive ridden hysterical abusive rant without any foundation whatsoever.

    The person that is falling over himself to prove what a unique bunch the English are…

    The English are “a unique bunch” just as the Masai, the Māori, the Han Chinese, the Dravidians etc etc are.

    I am defending diversity.

    “Who are you to talk of racism when you yourself quiver petrified at the thought of changes to the ‘pure English DNA’, like a true fucking nazi.”

    Who am I to talk of racism? Certainly not someone like you who has openly espoused virulent racist superiority and entitlement belief.

    None of what I have said is racism at all, it is scientific fact and verifiable truth.

    As has been carefully explained to you several times now, it is at root existential; it is about our survival as a people, as a people in our own homeland and as a rich part of diversity.

    You are amazingly ignorant on matters that you so aggressively comment on, which is why we see the usual low intellect screams of “Nazis” without proof as your only natural recourse to matters above your comprehension.

    “You talk as if your people are about to vanish off the face of the earth due to migration.”

    Amazing.

    Studies and figures show that the current rate of ingress and the current birth rates, the indigenous British will be a minority in their own homeland in 30 to 40 years.

    Even the Guardian accepted that by 2100 the indigenous Britons would be a minority in their own homeland but their figures and predictions were in 2000, well before it become known that Labour had illegally pursued an “open doors” policy for this country without telling anyone. That era is much, much closer now.

    (And the usual Soviet style fear of extreme consequences / persecution for telling unwanted truths can be seen with the end statement: The demographer who made the calculation wished to remain anonymous for fear of accusations of racism.”)

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/sep/03/race.world1

    Already in Britain’s ‘second city’ white children are a minority in schools:

    http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-stories/2010/01/26/asian-pupils-outnumber-white-children-in-birmingham-primary-schools-for-the-first-time-97319-25683727/

    And we see the same in many London schools as well as over 300 languages are currently spoken in London schools. Some of the most established of these are Bengali, Gujarati, Punjabi, Cantonese, Mandarin and Hokkien.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/european_languages/definitions.shtml

    Another indicator of one non-indigenous population spurt is shown figures released by the ONS in January 2009 revealed that the Muslim population in Britain has grown by more than 500,000 to 2.4 million in just four years. Their population multiplied 10 times faster than the rest of society.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5621482.ece

    I could go on. But I think I have more then made my point.

    “That statement is just so dumb considering the known paedo/sex tourism problem from Europe to the third world”

    Actually your statement is “just so dumb” as I asked about my country , not the Third World, so stop playing your distracting games and tell me what you think about that?

    “Anyway, rock on BBC Asian Network! Lol”

    Where is the BBC British indigenous ‘network’? If you have a ‘network’ based upon ethnicity that we all have to pay for, why shouldn’t we in our own land?

    Come to think of it, where are any indigenous British organizations / societies / caucuses?

    And would you think it were racist if they existed?

  53. Dalbir — on 17th April, 2010 at 8:37 pm  

    I am defending diversity.

    Whatever your personal preference for a ‘pure blood’ theory, it seems a portion of all communities in the UK have chosen to vote with their… err…. privates….and have no problem with miscegenation. Deal with it. What do you suggest? Banning interracial relationships. A bit fascist no?

    Certainly not someone like you who has openly espoused virulent racist superiority and entitlement belief.

    You can keep going on about that like a weirdo.

    Amazing.

    Studies and figures show that the current rate of ingress and the current birth rates, the indigenous British will be a minority in their own homeland in 30 to 40 years.

    No they wont. A simple adjustment as to what constitutes indigenous will take place. Plus you have plenty of satellite Anglo communities in the US, Spain, Canada, Aus etc. So don’t panic.

    As for languages in schools, believe me, any community generally struggles to keep a language alive by the 3rd generation. So what you highlight is only temporary.

    Actually your statement is “just so dumb” as I asked about my country , not the Third World, so stop playing your distracting games and tell me what you think about that?

    My point was that paedos are a phenomena that seems to inflict all communities. Your point was that immigrants have caused an upsurge in paedophilia here, well, Europeans have cause an upsurge in paedophilia in the third world. So to make out like one side is guilty and the other innocent is bullshit.

    Where is the BBC British indigenous ‘network’? If you have a ‘network’ based upon ethnicity that we all have to pay for, why shouldn’t we in our own land?

    Wake up! You do have these in the shape of mainstream TV, media and radio in the UK. Duuhh!

  54. IAE — on 17th April, 2010 at 9:52 pm  

    Dalbir @ # 52

    “Whatever your personal preference for a ‘pure blood’ theory…Banning interracial relationships. A bit fascist no?”

    Once again, that is your own invention; not something I have espoused.

    “it seems a portion of all communities in the UK have chosen to vote with their… err…. privates….and have no problem with miscegenation. Deal with it.”

    It’s still at a rate of less then 1% actually despite our wonderfully diverse society and the TV shows alluding that every other couple is mixed race, so it would seem that most do have ‘a problem with it.; indeed it is mostly Asian (and Jewish) communities and attitudes that have a tangible and vocal issue with it in any case.

    “You can keep going on about that like a weirdo.”

    Again with the insults in lieu of substance.

    You made you racist belief known and then lied about when the full implications of it dawned upon you. Which, unless telling lies is your view of normal behavior, very much makes you the weirdo.

    “No they wont.”

    Yes they will you clown, quite clearly as the studies show.

    “A simple adjustment as to what constitutes indigenous will take place.”

    Priceless.

    In other words we will be replaced by others, exactly as I said.

    And there can be no “adjustment” in what “constitutes” the indigenous Britons as they will have been replaced.

    Your insane ignorance equates to saying that once all of the lions have gone there will be a simple adjustment to what now constitutes a lion.

    You could say that cheetahs are the new lions if you really wanted to, problem is it wouldn’t impact on the reality that cheetahs are not lions and the lions are no longer around.

    “Plus you have plenty of satellite Anglo communities in the US, Spain, Canada, Aus etc”

    Again, amazing ignorance.

    Spain is not an example for a start; but two of the others have already been flooded with non-western immigration and the Australian government is busy doing the same to their people right now, again without asking them and it is casuing massive problems already. Massive.

    Especially with Sudanese and Somalian’s, on top of an already serious crime and social cohesion issue they have with the Lebanese and Vietnamese.; again I have plenty of proof for that, all you have to do is ask…

    As for the US:

    “White people of European descent will no longer make up a majority of the US population by the year 2042 – eight years sooner than previous estimates.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7559996.stm

    “As for languages in schools, believe me, any community generally struggles to keep a language alive by the 3rd generation. So what you highlight is only temporary.”

    Well aside from the fact that I don’t believe you on pretty much anything you say from past experience, it is not the point; the point is the sheer volume of aliens and what it means for the indigenous people.

    “My point was that paedos are a phenomena that seems to inflict all communities.”

    In this country the predominate ethnic group involved in the organized grooming, trafficking and pimping of white children are Asians, especially in the North and Afro-Caribbean’s in the Midlands.

    The link below is for the 3rd part of a BBC Panorama documentary on the problem that revealed that fact along with an Asian community spokesman’s acknowledgment and response, but I recommend you watch it all along with C4 dispatches documentary ‘edge of the city.’

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qborZxl3pZk&feature=related

    “Your point was that immigrants have caused an upsurge in paedophilia here, well”

    It was actually about Sweden and its child rape rate increase six fold originally, but yes, the Asian grooming of white children is a massive problem in this country.

    “Europeans have cause an upsurge in paedophilia in the third world. So to make out like one side is guilty and the other innocent is bullshit”

    Two things on that: The first is that you haven’t presented an proof, even anecdotal, of the size and number of the European problem in these places. The second is it is beyond the scope and control of this country, whereas problems that take place here most certainly aren’t.

    “Wake up! You do have these in the shape of mainstream TV, media and radio in the UK. Duuhh!”

    Mainstream is, as the very name applies, for everyone.

    Whereas Asian, as the very name implies is aimed at Asians exclusively.

    Good God.

    Shall we try again?

    Where is the BBC British indigenous ‘network’? If you have a ‘network’ based upon ethnicity that we all have to pay for, why shouldn’t we in our own land?

    Come to think of it, where are any indigenous British organizations / societies / caucuses?

    And would you think it were racist if they existed?

  55. Dalbir — on 18th April, 2010 at 7:35 am  

    Once again, that is your own invention; not something I have espoused.

    What are you “espousing” then?

    It’s still at a rate of less then 1% actually despite our wonderfully diverse society and the TV shows alluding that every other couple is mixed race

    Well, you have to admit, when it comes to inter-racial relationships, the English have less taboos about them than most other people. Plus why am I hearing the fasting growing ‘ethnic’ group is mixed race? Maybe that is just London?

    You could say that cheetahs are the new lions if you really wanted to, problem is it wouldn’t impact on the reality that cheetahs are not lions and the lions are no longer around.

    That is a false analogy, firstly we are talking about one species here, like Bengal Tigers and Siberian ones. Now if a portion of both ‘shag’ each other it doesn’t mean either original forms disappear. Your perception of what may be, is like an exaggerated worst case scenario for DNA ‘purists’. Why do you discountt the possibility that a large amount of English will only choose an English partner? Plus they will have Canada, Aus, Spain (with a large English colony) to pick from as well.

    “White people of European descent will no longer make up a majority of the US population by the year 2042 – eight years sooner than previous estimates.”

    What is wrong with that? Do you want to be a majority so you can dominate the others? How long can anyone keep that up for?

    the point is the sheer volume of aliens and what it means for the indigenous people.

    What do you think it means for them then?

    Come to think of it, where are any indigenous British organizations / societies / caucuses?

    Mainstream stations/media cater to the masses, believe it or not they are still generally white here. Despite the odd visible token, they are catering to the average English/British taste. I mean I don’t hear them playing bhangra often…..

    Plus don’t we already have BBC Wales and BBC Scotland?

    What would a BBC England be like anyway? All Engliish folk music and Morris dancing? Would white supremacism creep in somewhere I wonder?

    The first is that you haven’t presented an proof, even anecdotal, of the size and number of the European problem in these places.

    If you don’t know about the Euro child sex tourist problems in parts of Africa, Thailand etc. I’ll leave you to your ignorance. You can do a search yourself. I’m not going to do it for you incase I get flagged as a nonce case.

  56. IAE — on 18th April, 2010 at 2:44 pm  

    Dalbir @ # 54

    “What are you “espousing” then?”

    What? You really are a waste of time.

    You have had at least a couple of hundred comments worth of information to glean that from and you have made dozens of baseless accusations against me including “Nazi” and “Fascist” purportedly on the basis of what I have said yet you now admit that you haven’t got the first clue as to what my actual position is or why you decided to smear me with these arbitrary labels.

    Amazing.

    “Well, you have to admit, when it comes to inter-racial relationships, the English have less taboos about them than most other people”

    Certainly a lot less the very racially conscious Asian and Jewish communities.

    “Plus why am I hearing the fasting growing ‘ethnic’ group is mixed race?”

    As proven above the fastest growing alien group in the UK are Muslims (10 times faster then every other group) and according to the 2001 census Asians comprised 73.7% of all Muslims in the UK so once again there is the real answer based on fact and evidence, away from your amateurish assertions based upon nothing.

    “Maybe that is just London?”

    Just 3.15% actually.

    “That is a false analogy, firstly we are talking about one species here”

    OK, a more pertinent analogy then would be Lions and Tigers who are both of the same species but very different beasts.

    Your insane ignorance equates to saying that once all of the Lions have gone there will be a simple adjustment to what now constitutes a Lion.

    You could say that Tiger are the new Lions if you really wanted to, problem is it wouldn’t impact on the reality that Tigers are not lions and the lions are no longer around and any that have been mixed are now ‘Ligers’, neither Lions nor Tigers.

    Better for you?

    “Your perception of what may be, is like an exaggerated worst case scenario for DNA ‘purists’”

    Again you make up your own story despite the actual narrative; didn’t I already point to the fact that mixed race in the UK is only at 1.4%?

    “Why do you discountt the possibility that a large amount of English will only choose an English partner?

    You don’t even grasp the fundamentals at all do you?

    You really have no comprehension of the issue at all.

    Whilst indigenous British women have presently a total fertility rate of around 1.3 offspring, Bangladeshi women have a rate of 3.9 and Pakistani women 5.

    “Britain’s ethnic minorities are growing at 15 times the rate of the white population, newly-published research shows.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1556901.stm

    “What is wrong with that? Do you want to be a majority so you can dominate the others? How long can anyone keep that up for?”

    How absurd. US aside, it is going to happen here too and so you ask what is wrong with the English becoming a minority in their own country?

    Well to start off ask the average Englishman if that is what he wants or if that is what is he every asked for any government to do and I think we both know the reaction.

    Again it all comes straight back to the central point that you really cant seem to grasp that immigration at the rates we have and with the birth rates we have will replace us in our own homelands. Something you first deny and now embrace.

    And if having a white majority in western countries equates to ‘domination’ in your mind then why would it be any different by the group(s) that replace them?

    Do you not think the English should be in control of their own country and the majority group?

    Well, no, of course you don’t. You have already expressed your view that the English have less rights then your ethnic group. Less right to be here nonetheless, and you are still a minority as yet. You see where this goes…

    Wanting to be a majority in your own land is quite obviously perfectly natural (especially for the indigenous Britons where these isles are our ancestral homeland as well as our country) and for sound reasons:

    The first is touched upon above; a second is to prevent Balkans style ethnic war.

    A third one is that of crime, when even 5% of the population become non-western the crime and rape rate escalates dramatically as we have seen in detail above and only gets worse with each increment; hence the ‘gated’ communities in many majority non-western countries and areas around the world, etc etc

    “Mainstream stations/media cater to the masses, believe it or not they are still generally white here. Despite the odd visible token, they are catering to the average English/British taste”

    As I said, they cater for everyone but quite clearly you do not feel yourself to be of the “average English/British tastes” so it begs the question why are you here? If you want to be immersed in the culture of your ancestral homeland why not go back to your ancestral homeland?

    “Plus don’t we already have BBC Wales and BBC Scotland?”

    Plus don’t we already have masses non-western immigrant in Wales and Scotland? That is for them too.

    “What would a BBC England be like anyway? All Engliish folk music and Morris dancing?”

    Again your contempt of England and the English is tangible; but are you saying that just these two forms are illegitimate or somehow inferior to your ‘bhangra beat’?

    That news and programs exclusively about the English and their global kin would not be of any interest to the English? It is only Asians that are whole and active as a group?

    “Would white supremacism creep in somewhere I wonder?”

    And there, finally we come to it. You would consider it racist.

    It is perfectly fine and healthy for every other ethnic group in this country to organize along ethnic lines in just about every area such as law, music, media, politics, health, police associations etc around 12000 of them at last estimate, but if the indigenous people were to do it in their own land, it would be racist and supremacist.

    According to your belief ‘White’ people are intrinsically evil and must be stopped from any organized association attempt, lest their racist nature seep out, but other ethnicity is free from such poison and can organize away.

    Again, a very racist attitude.

    “If you don’t know about the Euro child sex tourist problems in parts of Africa, Thailand etc. I’ll leave you to your ignorance”

    I know there is some issue, I am asking you to prove the size and scope of it as you brought it up. That is how it works, you raise, you prove it, or it doesn’t stand.

    Either ways, as I said, it is beyond the scope and control of this country, whereas problems that take place here most certainly aren’t.

    Now what say you about the fact that the Asians (and Afro-Caribbean’s) are the predominate group in the grooming and pimping, that is the white slave trading, of white children in this country?

  57. Dalbir — on 18th April, 2010 at 4:50 pm  

    IAE, IAE, IAE…..

    I’ve come to realise that you truly believe that English people are actually under a genuine threat of extinction. I thought you wre taking the piss originally but I now know this is something of real concern to you.

    I don’t share your opinion at all. I think races (as you define them) are more robust than that, especially more aggressive ones.

    We could argue ad naseum over this but I don’t think English people (your definition) are under any threat. I think a large chunk of those rapidly growing immigrant communities you fear so much will be Anglicised and absorbed by the majority within a few generations. In time the only way you’ll ever know this is through a DNA test. To all intents and purposes they will be culturally and even physically identical to the English in due time. Look at Jamie Oliver as an example, he has Sudanese blood on his mother’s side apparently.

    Do you not think the English should be in control of their own country and the majority group?

    If we follow this logic, should the Aboriginals not be in charge of Aus? The Red Indians of America? The Inuit of Canada? See where this is going.

    I feel a tad bit sorry for your doom and gloom perspective. I also now know why you are unable to accept my statement that “Panjabis have more rights etc…..” was a cheeky provocative one. because you genuinely believe that people like that exist and probably constitute the majority of immigrants and their descendents.

    I just hope you meet some nonwhites you warm to and that can help you overcome this cognitive block soon.

    PS – Not many Asians and West Indians are involved in a conspiracy to pimp out white girls. And the weather is too good to be indoors. Cheer up misery guts.

    I’m off.

  58. IAE — on 18th April, 2010 at 7:01 pm  

    Dalbir @ # 56

    Well I am glad that you finally accept my real concerns and that they are (and I) am genuine, even if you still fail to understand that the evidence presented proves that it will happen, and it is just a question of when and not if, and with 30 years being the latest forecast.

    Also you are still confusing the mixing aspect as to the issue which I have already proven is a very minor part of it over the actual issue of being replaced.

    (But on mixing, again the Lion / Tiger analogy still holds; I think places like south of the Seine France, Spain, Portugal, Italy etc clearly demonstrates that in that eventuality people are not even remotely the same; Oliver claims some sixth generation Sudanese link but doesn’t know any details, but I am happy to accept that he has a proportion of non-indigenous material given his appearance.)

    Similarly the cultural aspect will never be identical to the English and how could it be when every group is desperate to retain their own separate identity (as we see with this Asian network business) and most especially with the fastest growing group in the UK of Muslims (with the ethnic makeup as above.)

    The very word Islam means ‘submit’ and its main concern is universal; already with just a minority in Europe there have been radical changes such as Sharia courts and suicide bombings and ever more radical demands. These will only increase along with the numbers. A majority would inevitably lead to the UK being an Islamic republic.

    Again, you fail to grasp that these ‘definitions of race / English ethnicity’ are not mine but those of science and scholars, history and reality.
    But I do agree that yes, the Aboriginals, Inuit etc in Australia, Canada etc should have been in charge of their dominions but the difference is that places were not sovereign states (terras nullius) at the time of the birth of these countries (although they do have semi-autonomous reservations now) and the biggest factor was that they were rapidly replaced and as a result completely disenfranchised, which is what will happen here too.

    Enough Asians and Afro-Caribbean’s are involved in the white child slavery / white child grooming in the UK to identify them as the predominate group behind it (just as there is evidence that similar immigrants are behind the six fold surge of child rape in Sweden) and so that in itself is just another massively negative impact of non-western immigration in a range of many.

    Having been brought up in some of London’s toughest council estates and all that comes with it, I am fully immersed in ‘multi-cultural’ society (and as a well traveled man) and know a great many people from all backgrounds, so your claims are patently false in that regard just as they are that I consider your opinions on the legitimacy of the English people in their own country to be the opinion of every immigrant and their descendants; but I do know that that opinion is held fairly widely enough for me have encountered it many times in my life.

    Finally, give me an example where this enforced mixing of peoples, ethnicities, cultures and aspirations has ever led to anything good, and not ended in tragedy, either through termination or ongoing tragedy let when it has been so massive, sudden, unwarranted and unmandated?

    Enjoy the weather.

  59. IAE — on 18th April, 2010 at 7:05 pm  

    Naik @ # 38

    I notice that you have performed the same disappearing trick you did in the last thread we debated on after you ‘demanded’ evidence and then got it in spades.

    You reappeared after a while then to totally ignore it and issue some baseless accusation on another matter entirely.

    Do you have anything to say on the point now proven, or do you concede that you were wrong on this too?

  60. Jai — on 19th April, 2010 at 12:27 pm  

    Well, I see that our visitors from al-BNP have been busy promoting their delusional 19th century worldview on this website during the weekend, complete with an unhealthy Victorian obsession with “racial purity”, “lineages” and “classifications”. Not to mention the ongoing eugenics-driven efforts to contribute to the balkanisation of mankind by exploiting & distorting science in order to find excuses to splinter it into ever-smaller groups.

    It’s fascinating to observe the death throes of a 200-year-old cult of “monoracialism” which is itself a gross aberration in Britain’s millennia-old history and which was deliberately & duplicitously based on entirely falsified self-serving premises in the first place.

    The matter is compounded by the complete distortion of history, not just focusing on India but even Britain, a direct legacy of 19th century propaganda and historical falsification. Again, it’s not surprising at all where al-BNP is concerned, considering (for example) Nick Griffin’s completely false assertion that the last Ice Age ended “17,000 years ago”. He publicly made this claim on Question Time not once but repeatedly. Whether his claim was based on colossal ignorance (about a scientifically-established fact which is so widely known that it’s the equivalent of being unaware that Saturn possesses rings) or a deliberate lie is a matter of opinion – did he think that nobody would notice, or does he actually think that the millions watching were that stupid ? – but regardless of subsequent attempts to backtrack about the matter, if Nick Griffin and the BNP leadership as a whole can’t be trusted to speak the truth about a simple established fact like that, why should other BNP members or indeed the general public of the United Kingdom as a whole believe anything else they say ?

  61. Jai — on 19th April, 2010 at 12:29 pm  

    “Dan Dare”,

    The simple fact of the matter is that the only truly indigenous people of the British Isles, particularly in a “we were here first” sense, are those exclusively descended from the historical group regarded as “Celts” in mainstream British discourse.

    Nobody else who is partially or exclusively descended from Anglo-Saxons, Jutes, Norse Vikings or Normans can accurately make the claim to be “indigenous to the British Isles”, in the same way that absolutely nobody else in India from the Dravidians onwards can make such claims about being “indigenous to India” either.

    Again, regardless of the efforts of your near-exact counterparts in India : the Shiv Sena, the RSS and the Bajrang Dal.

    @Jai – I’m wondering it might be worthwhile splitting out the posts about indigenousness into a separate thread.

    I have a better idea. Perhaps you should comprehensively answer the following question posed to you in #32 :

    I’d like to pick up on a couple of complimentary remarks you made about Hitler on the now-closed thread:

    Please provide full details on further policies and actions authorised by Adolf Hitler which you admire and which the BNP should directly emulate. Since you have publicly made these remarks on a globally-accessible website, presumably it should also not be an issue for the BNP leadership to formally & publicly declare direct inspiration from various aspects of Hitler’s ideology and activities, including the usage of Hitler on campaign posters as per the recent attempts to use Jesus in a similar manner, eg. “What would Hitler do ? Vote BNP”.

    Please feel free to use the relevant German terms from the period too.

  62. Jai — on 19th April, 2010 at 12:31 pm  

    (continued)

    “Dan Dare”,

    And to return full-circle to the starting point, it’s instructive to note that in its new constitution the BNP has jettisoned all the ice age nonsense and now defines Indigenous Briton as follows:

    “Indigenous British” means together that group of nations and or communities historically indigenous to our British Homeland, being the first and aboriginal peoples of our British Homeland, and which group consists of the English, the Irish, the Ulster Scots, the Scots, and the Welsh racial groups and any sub sects of the same; and which racial groups it is believed by many are referred to as the British and Irish ethnic groups in the ethnic group categories used for the purposes of the 2001 Census for England and Wales;
    …
    For the purpose of our Constitution the phrase “historically indigenous” means those racial groups whose collective, common or shared ancestors are continuously traceable or are bona fide believed by members of such racial groups to be continuously traceable back in the case of:-

    3.1 the Indigenous British, in our British Homeland before the commencement of the time of legal memory;

    As you’ve stated yourself on the now-closed thread, assertions about the BNP and its policies from BNP members are worthless unless they “have the Chairman’s thumbprint” on them. This obviously also applies to your own ongoing comments about such matters here on Pickled Politics, unless you are prepared to send a formal written declaration in an email from an authenticated BNP email account to this website’s editorial team via both of the contacts forms here http://www.pickledpolitics.com/contact , as follows :

    “I, [insert full name], formally confirm in writing and on the record that I am officially a member of the BNP, that my statements and assertions on the comments threads of the blog ‘Pickled Politics’ are an accurate representation of the BNP’s political ideology, goals and intentions, and that I have been fully authorised to speak for and represent the BNP on ‘Pickled Politics’ regarding these matters directly by the Chairman of the BNP, Mr Nick Griffin.”

    Unless you do the above, any statements you make here regarding the BNP are worthless; furthermore, failure to do so would also raise questions about the validity of your claims to allegedly be a member of the BNP. For all anyone knows, you could just be someone pretending to be a BNP member and commenting on this blog in an attempt to promote some nefarious agenda geared towards the detriment of the BNP.

  63. Ravi.Nk — on 19th April, 2010 at 12:35 pm  

    Do you have anything to say on the point now proven, or do you concede that you were wrong on this too?

    IAAE – I am sorry, but I find ethno-whiners like yourself and Dalbir a complete turn-off and quite frankly boring. You do not provide me any intellectual motivation to keep talking to you.

    I will give you one more chance, though. So where were we?

    Like I said, I couldn’t care less what demands you think you have the authority and right to demand from the people who’s country and ancestral homeland you are residing in and like I said you have no idea whatsoever just how much people like you and your arrogant and offensive demands push up support for the BNP

    IAAE: I would suggest that if you feel offended by your own indigenous rhetoric that you actually try to find another rhetoric – preferably one that doesn’t bite on your allegedly English arse. You and the BNP have defined indigenous on a genetic level: that only true British have genes that match the ancestors that lived in the Ice Age. If that’s so, let’s go all the way: the only way to figure out if your genes match the people that lived here back in these Isles from pre-historic times is by genetic testing: no genes from Poles, Italians, Belgium and other non-indigenous genes should apply.

    And there should be no exceptions: not to you, Dan Dare or Nick “you just know” Griffin. So to me that’s the end of it.

    Onwards to the next topic, IAAE.

    So Naik, plenty of proof once again that since the mass immigration of non-western immigrants into Sweden, the rape rate of over 15’s has at least quadrupled and non-western immigrants are responsible for half and then the majority at varying intervals and so it naturally follows in that pattern that they are also responsible for the increase in the rape of children, that is under 15, unless you seriously want to contend that it one massive coincidence, given the facts.

    No, it doesn’t naturally follow that immigrants are responsible for the increase of infant rape in Sweden, unless you are a bloody racist. Sweden is a country with problems of domestic abuse, and paedophilia is known to be committed by people of trust, not strangers. Furthermore, another subtlety that completely went over your head is that the numbers you mention are reported cases, not actual cases. Sweden has been mounting a campaign since the 1990s against abuse, which have increased the number of reported cases – which is a good thing.

    However, let me make this clear. What you just said is a racist smear: you have provided no numbers about paedophilia criminals linking to immigrants, and yet you say you have proof about immigrants increasing paedophilia levels in that country.

    There is no debate about this, IAAE. You lied. Moving on.

    Incidentally, what say you now about the endemic Asian pedophile problem in my country? You seem to have gone silent on this now…

    I think the majority of people would agree on two things. First, paedophilia is a gruesome crime, and second paedophilia is not limited to one ethnic group.

    And yet, you want to score some cheap points on it. Let’s go all the way then. What makes paedophilia committed by Asians endemic? Do you have numbers vis-a-vis other groups including the people you identify with? And do you have to respond when people you identify with commit crimes?

  64. Ravi.Nk — on 19th April, 2010 at 12:43 pm  

    Sorry about the red block quotes. Let me correct them here:

    Onwards to the next topic, IAAE.

    So Naik, plenty of proof once again that since the mass immigration of non-western immigrants into Sweden, the rape rate of over 15’s has at least quadrupled and non-western immigrants are responsible for half and then the majority at varying intervals and so it naturally follows in that pattern that they are also responsible for the increase in the rape of children, that is under 15, unless you seriously want to contend that it one massive coincidence, given the facts.

    No, it doesn’t naturally follow that immigrants are responsible for the increase of infant rape in Sweden, unless you are a bloody racist. Sweden is a country with problems of domestic abuse, and paedophilia is known to be committed by people of trust, not strangers. Furthermore, another subtlety that completely went over your head is that the numbers you mention are reported cases, not actual cases. Sweden has been mounting a campaign since the 1990s against abuse, which have increased the number of reported cases – which is a good thing.

    However, let me make this clear. What you just said is a racist smear: you have provided no numbers about paedophilia criminals linking to immigrants, and yet you say you have proof about immigrants increasing paedophilia levels in that country.

    There is no debate about this, IAAE. You lied. Moving on.

    Incidentally, what say you now about the endemic Asian pedophile problem in my country? You seem to have gone silent on this now…

    I think the majority of people would agree on two things. First, paedophilia is a gruesome crime, and second paedophilia is not limited to one ethnic group.

    And yet, you want to score some cheap points on it. Let’s go all the way then. What makes paedophilia committed by Asians endemic? Do you have numbers vis-a-vis other groups including the people you identify with? And do you have to respond when people you identify with commit crimes?

    Let’s just hope this is not your second racist smear.

  65. Dalbir — on 19th April, 2010 at 1:21 pm  

    but I find ethno-whiners like yourself and Dalbir a complete turn-off

    You’re the one constantly whining about not being accepted as British/English or whatever bozo.

  66. Jai — on 19th April, 2010 at 2:21 pm  

    Well, I see that our visitors from al-BNP have been busy promoting their delusional 19th century worldview on this website during the weekend, complete with an unhealthy Victorian obsession with “racial purity”, “lineages” and “classifications”. Not to mention the ongoing eugenics-driven efforts to contribute to the balkanisation of mankind by exploiting & distorting science in order to find excuses to splinter it into ever-smaller groups.

    It’s fascinating to observe the death throes of a 200-year-old cult of “monoracialism” which is itself a gross aberration in Britain’s millennia-old history and which was deliberately & duplicitously based on entirely falsified self-serving premises in the first place.

    The matter is compounded by the complete distortion of history, not just focusing on India but even Britain, a direct legacy of 19th century propaganda and historical falsification.

    Again, it’s not surprising at all where al-BNP is concerned, considering (for example) Nick Griffin’s completely false assertion that the last Ice Age ended “17,000 years ago”. He publicly made this claim on Question Time not once but repeatedly. Whether his claim was based on colossal ignorance (about a scientifically-established fact which is so widely known that it’s the equivalent of being unaware that Saturn possesses rings) or a deliberate lie is a matter of opinion – did he think that nobody would notice, or does he actually think that the millions watching were that stupid ? – but regardless of subsequent attempts to backtrack about the matter, if Nick Griffin and the BNP leadership as a whole can’t be trusted to speak the truth about a simple established fact like that, why should other BNP members or indeed the general public of the United Kingdom believe anything else they say ?

  67. IAE — on 19th April, 2010 at 3:02 pm  

    Naik @ # 61

    “but I find ethno-whiners like yourself”

    i.e someone who is concerned about his own country and the fact that the indigenous British will a minority in their own land within 90 years according to the research carried out by the Guardian, or within 30 – 40 years according to the research of others.

    I have every right to be concerned and opine on it.

    “…a complete turn-off and quite frankly boring. You do not provide me any intellectual
    motivation to keep talking to you…”

    Standard cop out from an intellectual midget with integrity to match.

    “IAAE: I would suggest that if you feel offended by your own indigenous rhetoric that you actually try to find another rhetoric”

    Dishonest straw man nonsense; most English and I find it offensive that aliens consistently try to undermine or deny our identity, existence and legitimacy and demand that we justify ourselves in our own land.

    People like you.

    “You and the BNP have defined indigenous on a genetic level: that only true British have genes that match the ancestors that lived in the Ice Age.”

    No, science and reality has done that and 85% of Britons can trace their lineage here back to the stone age.

    “no genes from Poles, Italians, Belgium and other non-indigenous genes should apply.”

    Again, amazing ignorance as the Belgians, for instance, may well share R1b material.

    “No, it doesn’t naturally follow that immigrants are responsible for the increase of infant rape in Sweden, unless you are a bloody racist.”

    Yes it does unless you are a dishonest idiot.

    You really and truly expect people to believe that at the same time 20 years ago that mass non-western immigration started in Sweden and the rape rate of over 15’s quadrupled with non-western immigrants behind half to a majority of this massive new surge, that it is of pure coincidence that the rape rate of under 15’s also rose six times?

    What a load of extreme-left wing fantasy world hand wringing bullcrap.

    “However, let me make this clear. What you just said is a racist smear”

    No, you have made the racist smears here. I have provided plenty of proof the emergence of the six fold increase of the rape rate of under 15’s in Sweden occurring exactly the same time as the quadruple increase of the rape rate of over 15’s of which offender wise, half to the majority are non-western immigrants.

    “There is no debate about this, IAAE. You lied. Moving on.”

    No, you have lied. Lied about my not providing DNA results. Lied about the evidence presented. Lied about your underlying Anti-English racism.

    I on the other hand have been totally upfront and provide plenty of reason with every post.

    You are just another dishonest extreme-left vested interest smear monger.

    The six fold increase of the rape of Swedish children occurred at exactly the same time as the mass influx of non-western immigrants who caused the rape rate of over 15’s to quadruple.

    You might think anyone other then your back scratching fantasy world self-affirming fools is mug enough to believe that it isn’t intimately linked, that one massive and coincidental seismic shift of generations of Swedish societal behavior occurred instead, but people living in the real world are not.

    “I think the majority of people would agree on two things. First, paedophilia is a gruesome crime, and second paedophilia is not limited to one ethnic group.”

    Well if they actually did then they would be wrong on the second in regards of organized grooming and sex slavery of white children because the predominate group involved in the North are Asians, in the Midlands Afro-Caribbean’s and in the South Turks, Kurds, Albanian’s and Asians as you will see and hear if you watch the documentary linked to and the other one.

    “What makes paedophilia committed by Asians endemic? Do you have numbers vis-a-vis other groups including the people you identify with?”

    See that documentary for the full conviction list and the Police officer in charge of the task forces conclusions as a result. See Ann Cryers comments above.

    “let’s just hope this is not your second racist smear.”

    As I said, you are the one propagating racist smears here my friend, denying that the English people even exist in their own land, I on the other hand have produced comprehensive evidence of the realties of my contentions, which is about as far removed from the actual meaning of the word ‘smear’ as it gets.

    You are just another angry interloper outraged that the indigenous populace would like some recognition that this is their ancestral homeland and this is the country they built and that they are key stake holders in it and have every right to be concerned about alien immigration and the fact that they will be replaced within a generation or two in thier own land, and so have to recourse to the now completely worn out and utterly predictable screams of ‘racis.’

    Once more for you, here is the evidence that the six fold rape rate of Swedish children, that is under 15’s occurred at exactly the same time as the onset of the quadruple rape rate of over 15’s and that that occurred at the start of mass non-western immigration and that that non-western immigrant are attributed to half to a majority of these rapes and also that this is an unprecedented and massive increase in the rape rate and the link to non-western immigrants is not just an isolated incident in one country:

  68. IAE — on 19th April, 2010 at 3:05 pm  

    The sheer impact of non-western immigrants on the rape rate of Scandinavia was posted with all the links in that thread @ # 406:

    In Denmark non-westerners committed 68% of all rapes, and it was revealed that non-westerners were over-represented in all crime by an average of 46% and in Copenhagen 47.5% of prisoners on remand for serious crimes were non-western. In Norway it was found that two out of three charged with rape in Oslo were non-western and that every case of aggravated sexual assault ending in rape over the past three years was committed by non-western immigrants, whilst in Sweden it was found that a rapist was four times more likely to have been born abroad – with Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia. dominating the group of rape suspects and that non-whites were responsible for 25% of all crime in Sweden.

    So we can clearly see that non-western immigrants dominate the rape rate now. We also know that mass non-western immigration into Scandinavia only began in the last 20 years.

    So all given the facts above, all we have to do is establish a firm pattern (already done in who commits the majority of rape) as to the rise of the rape rate since this non-western influx to find that it runs in tandem with the flow of non-western immigration leading to their dominance of the rape rate and a much higher incidence.

    Despite the Swedish government being unwilling to tell its people the truth about the real effects of their social experiment, various MSM reports verify the facts:

    “rape and attempted rape has trebled in the last twenty years. These figures are where the victims were 15 years or older. Among children under 15 – has rape has increaded six-fold…”

    http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article326023.ab

    “In December, publishes Crime Prevention Council, good, for the first time in ten years a study on immigrants’ overrepresentation in crime statistics. Half are immigrants.”

    http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article327666.ab

    “Sexual crime and rape curves upwards throughout most of the last decade, new statistics show far from the National Crime Prevention Council…

    Never since the rescheduling of good statistics in the early 90’s has so many outdoor rape – rape, assault – been reported as last year.”

    http://www.sydsvenskan.se/malmo/article89626.ece

  69. Refresh — on 19th April, 2010 at 3:08 pm  

    I was thinking of supporting the Asian Network, until someone suggested ‘flashmobs’ and bhangra.

  70. IAE — on 19th April, 2010 at 3:09 pm  

    Cont’d

    “That shows the lawyer Ann Christine Hjelm, who on a mission by the Crime Prevention Council has investigated violent crimes in Svea high court … the convicted rapists that are included in her study about half of the cases lived under socially normal cases. 85 per cent was born in foreign soil or by parents from foreign soil”

    http://www.dn.se/ledare/signerat/en-riktig-valdtaktsman-1.407102

    “Sweden has the highest incidence of reported rapes in Europe – twice as many as “runner up” the UK, a new study shows.”

    http://www.thelocal.se/19102/

    So Naik, plenty of proof once again that since the mass immigration of non-western immigrants into Sweden, the rape rate of over 15’s has at least quadrupled and non-western immigrants are responsible for half and then the majority at varying intervals and so it naturally follows in that pattern that they are also responsible for the increase in the rape of children, that is under 15, unless you seriously want to contend that it one massive coincidence, given the facts.

    In fact let’s look at Norway and the explosion of its rape rate and who is responsible too just to further establish the pattern:

    “Two out of three charged with rape in Norway’s capital are immigrants with a non-western background…The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.

    Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year. Police Inspector Gunnar Larsen of Oslo’s Vice, Robbery and Violent crime division says the statistics are surprising – the rising number of rape cases and the link to ethnic background are both clear trends.”

    http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece

    “Nearly 300 women have sought help so far this year from Oslo’s emergency clinic handling rape victims.

    That’s a higher per capita rate than New York City’s, and the clinic is having trouble meeting demand.
    The clinic (voldtektsmottak) at the emergency hospital known as Legevakt has never had so many rape victims to treat. Its ability to care for them all is being severely tested…

    The growth in the number of rapes is dramatic,” said Sylvi Listhaug, the politician in charge of health issues on the Oslo City Council. “It makes me angry, and worried about the young women of our city.”

    http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1567514.ece

  71. IAE — on 19th April, 2010 at 3:11 pm  

    Cont’d

    And in Denmark, with 68% of the rape rate being non-western immigrants:

    “NULL Alarmed at last week’s police statistics, which revealed that in 68% of all rapes committed this year the perpetrator was from an ethnic minority, leading Muslim organisations have now formed an alliance to fight the ever-growing problem of young second and third-generation immigrants involved in rape cases against young Danish girls.”

    http://www.cphpost.dk/news/1-latest-news/27877.html

    We also find out the attitudes of the Muslim hierarchy on these rapes, and of how they think the Danish people should submit to Islam and alien ways too:

    “An Islamic mufti in Copenhagen has sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are “asking for rape.”

    http://jimball.com.au/features/Political%20%20uproar%20over%20mufti%27s%20rmearks%20-The%20Copenhagen%20Post.htm

  72. Ravi.Nk — on 19th April, 2010 at 3:13 pm  

    You’re the one constantly whining about not being accepted as British/English or whatever bozo.

    I have never complained about being accepted, or made any comments to that nature. It is you who accuse non-whites who feel that England is their homeland as suffering from low self-esteem issues. What a despicable thing to say.

  73. IAE — on 19th April, 2010 at 3:20 pm  

    Cont’d

    And so Naik, there is overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence there that non-western immigrants are linked to a massively disproportionate rate and even majority of rapes committed in Scandinavia and are also behind a massive and unprecedented rise the rape rate too.

    That is a fact. Inescapable. True as day.

    Also a fact is that in common with all Europeans, Scandinavians have never had a say in whether they ever wanted this massive and sudden influx of alien immigration and even after the immense negative experience of it and the fact that Scandinavia doesn’t need any immigrant labour as demonstrated by the much higher immigrant unemployment rate to the indigenous and that in fact this folly is costing them billions of Krona’s and carried out as so-called humanitarian aid (humanitarian to whom? Not the Scandinavians that’s for sure) what possible benefit can this be to anyone and why on earth should it continue.

    Perhaps you could direct some of you faux ‘righteous’ anger and rhetoric at the realities in front of you, rather the straw men you build in lieu.

  74. Ravi.Nk — on 19th April, 2010 at 3:33 pm  

    I find it offensive that aliens consistently try to undermine or deny our identity

    There you go – an ethno-whiner. Let me make it clear: you can claim to be a Klingon or a descendant of Xenu. Do you think anyone gives a damn about you or for that matter me?

    Again, amazing ignorance as the Belgians, for instance, may well share R1b material.

    Oh, so any Belgian can be English, then?

    You really and truly expect people to believe

    This is not a matter of belief. You either have the numbers that show that immigrants have increased pedophilia crimes, or you don’t. You said you had, and you didn’t. So you lied to promote a racist smear.

    See that documentary for the full conviction list and the Police officer in charge of the task forces conclusions as a result. See Ann Cryers comments above.

    I see you are unable to debate, and you just keep repeating your copy&pastes without actually trying to respond to my questions. I have read your material, it doesn’t backup your assertion. Let me ask you one last time: you said that Asian pedophilia is endemic in the UK. I want to know the numbers: pedophilia crimes by ethnic groups.

  75. Ravi.Nk — on 19th April, 2010 at 4:08 pm  

    And so Naik, there is overwhelming and incontrovertible evidence there that non-western immigrants are linked to a massively disproportionate rate and even majority of rapes committed in Scandinavia and are also behind a massive and unprecedented rise the rape rate too. That is a fact. Inescapable. True as day

    There is also the inescapable conclusion that the majority if not all rapes are perpetrated by men.

    The catch here is that while 100% of rapist are men, it doesn’t mean than 100% of men are rapist.

    Are you clever enough to see the difference?

    Similarly, take Norway. In one of the links you provided, it mentions 72 cases of rapes by non-westerners in Oslo. There are 40000 non-westerners living in Oslo. Now, you seem to suggest that all those non-westerners are rapists because of 72 rotten individuals.

  76. sofia — on 19th April, 2010 at 4:08 pm  

    IAE post 63 – you should tell all your white mates to start breeding then innit…

  77. sofia — on 19th April, 2010 at 4:11 pm  

    “Also a fact is that in common with all Europeans, Scandinavians have never had a say in whether they ever wanted this massive and sudden influx of alien immigration”

    Blimey I’m having a bit of deja vu..surely the indigenous populations of Africa and the Indian Sub continent as well as the Caribbean and South America and Australia never had a say in whether they ever wanted this massive and sudden influx of alien immigration…and for the most part, hundreds of years later they’re still bloody there!

  78. IAE — on 19th April, 2010 at 4:30 pm  

    Naik @ # 70

    “There you go – an ethno-whiner.”

    Like I said, i.e someone who is concerned about his own country and the fact that the indigenous British will a minority in their own land within 90 years according to the research carried out by the Guardian, or within 30 – 40 years according to the research of others.

    I have every right to be concerned and opine on it.

    “Oh, so any Belgian can be English, then?”

    You really are just completely dishonest, and completely ignorant of the subject you spout off on so loudly and just ever so dense aren’t you; the profile of the indigenous Britons is largely R1b and many North European tribes share that as we are intimately linked.

    But you are claiming that genes are somehow national, that there is a Polish gene etc and that is not a claim supported in reality or one that I have made; the indigenous Britons are a homogenous amalgamation of the tribes listed above and as such much R1b is present in Northern Europe either by way of kin linkage, or by way of indigenous Britons settling in those regions.

    I don’t expect you to know the detailed history of my people, but you should at least know that ongoing military adventure, conquest and settlement in Europe was a consistent theme.

    “This is not a matter of belief.”

    After compelling evidence like that the conclusions are are a matter of inference as it is with most data and pattern analysis. So of course it is; 100%.

    You are demanding people believe that contrary to the evidence that clearly shows that Sweden’s rape rate of over 15’s quadrupled with the influx 20 years ago of non-western immigrants and that half to a majority of non-western immigrants are behind it, that the six fold rape rate increase of Swedish children, that is under 15’s that occurred at exactly the same time is not at all linked and is somehow a massive coincidence caused by an unprecedented and unrelated seismic shift in generations of Swedish societal behavior.

    Ludicrous. You are an out of reality fool.

    Is this what you really believe? If so explain with the same level of evidence I have provided…

    “You either have the numbers that show that immigrants have increased pedophilia crimes, or you don’t. You said you had, and you didn’t.”

    I didn’t say that at all; another blatant lie by yourself. I actually said …

    “just as there is evidence that similar immigrants are behind the six fold surge of child rape in Sweden”

    … and as comprehensively proven there is copious and compelling evidence as the six fold increase of the rape of Swedish children occurred at exactly the same time as the mass influx of non-western immigrants who caused the rape rate of over 15’s to quadruple.

    “So you lied to promote a racist smear.”

    No, as proven, once again, you are the liar here(we can all use bold) and you are the smear monger.

    “I see you are unable to debate, and you just keep repeating your copy&pastes without actually trying to respond to my questions”

    Oh what a farce coming from you. you couldn’t even answer two simple straight questions in the last thread and now try desperatly to brush over the fact that non-western immigrants have massively increased rape in Scandinavia and are behind the majority of the new surge in sexual violence (and massively disproportionate in overall crime too.)

    When people like you play the evading tactics you do, it is easy to just keep beating you with the same truth stick.

    “I have read your material, it doesn’t backup your assertion.”

    How did you read filmed documentary’s exactly?

    Precisely.

    You don’t and you haven’t reviewed the material at all. It is another lie on your behalf (there is that bold again.) One of many. And the material does back up my assertion 100%.

    “Let me ask you one last time: you said that Asian pedophilia is endemic in the UK. I want to know the numbers: pedophilia crimes by ethnic groups.”

    I have told you before; I don’t care about your demands. You can only have what the government allow you to.

    Instead of lying about reviewing the evidence, and you actually did it, you would know that the predominate groups in the organized grooming and sexual slavery of children in the UK are all non-western with Asians predominate in the North and Afro-Carribeans predominate in the Midlands and a mix of Asians and Balkan groups in the south.

    You would also hear the figures and conviction rates for yourself. And if you had any idea of what the word endemic means you would see that the contention is fully proven.

    And you would also have seen Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Ramadhan Foundation acknowledging the problem, as well as commenting that:

    “”I think the police are overcautious on dealing with this issue openly because they fear being branded racist and I think that is wrong.”

    So stop lying and start reviewing and then maybe comment from a postion of knowldge and honesty for a change.

  79. IAE — on 19th April, 2010 at 4:41 pm  

    Naik @ # 71

    “There is also the inescapable conclusion that the majority if not all rapes are perpetrated by men”

    Oh dear, that age old lefty line.

    But OK, yes, and in those figures the majority are carried out by non-western men. Are you clever enough to see the difference?

    It is a pattern that can be stopped at any time and stopped from increasing in the future.

    “..it mentions 72 cases of rapes by non-westerners in Oslo. There are 40000 non-westerners living in Oslo..”

    It also says “rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year” and we now know the reason why and the group behind it and we also know that every case of aggravated sexual assault ending in rape over the past three years was committed by non-western immigrants.

    Given this and the fact that the Norwegian people never asked for this mass alien immigration and massive resultant increase in their rape rate that will only get worse as non-western numbers get higher and the fact that not only is there no economic benefit to this immigration but conversely a high cost and it is carried out for purportedly ‘humanitarian’ reasons when clearly it is anything but humanitarian for the indigenous Norwegians why on earth should this be allowed to continue.

    What benefit is it the indigenous Norwegian people?

  80. sofia — on 19th April, 2010 at 4:44 pm  

    IAE – I see you’ve ignored the mass immigration in the Americas and Australia…how did it benefit their indigenous populations?

  81. IAE — on 19th April, 2010 at 4:54 pm  

    Sofia @ # 72 @ 73

    “you should tell all your white mates to start breeding then innit…”

    Right.

    Or we could just halt all alien immigration and deport all the illegal immigrants already here as well pretty much every so-called asylum seeker as the vast majority have broken the 1952 United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees by not seeking asylum in the first safe country, effectively meaning the only genuine legal asylum seekers that should be admitted to the UK would come from the surrounding countries of Ireland, France, Netherlands, Belgium and Scandinavia.

    Innit.

    ” Blimey I’m having a bit of deja vu..surely the indigenous populations of Africa and the Indian Sub continent as well as the Caribbean and South America and Australia…”

    So it was wrong then but right now? Is that your argument?

    And this is our ‘comeuppance’ is it? A karmic revenge?

    “…Australia never had a say in whether they ever wanted this massive and sudden influx of alien immigration…”

    And that erroneous grasp of history and semantics has already been dealt with several times, last I recall @ # 57 with the gist being that Australia, Canada etc were not sovereign states (terras nullius) at the time of the birth of these countries and so consequently that process was not immigration and completely different from the situation we now face.

    The only similarity is that the indigenous populations were rapidly replaced and as a result completely disenfranchised, which is what will happen here too.

  82. Dan Dare — on 19th April, 2010 at 6:22 pm  

    @Jai 59

    The simple fact of the matter is that the only truly indigenous people of the British Isles, particularly in a “we were here first” sense, are those exclusively descended from the historical group regarded as “Celts” in mainstream British discourse.

    I’m uncertain what ‘mainstream British discourse’ is but if it maintains that ‘Celts’ were the original inhabitants of the British Isles after the last LGM then it would be talking out of its arse. Review post 41 above for the proper answer.

    Nobody else who is partially or exclusively descended from Anglo-Saxons, Jutes, Norse Vikings or Normans can accurately make the claim to be “indigenous to the British Isles”, in the same way that absolutely nobody else in India from the Dravidians onwards can make such claims about being “indigenous to India” either.

    Well it really depends on the definition of indigenous. You have chosen to settle on ‘who was here first’ as the one and only true definition, since it suits your political objective. You would like to be able to claim for recent Afro-Asian entrants the same entitlement as people whose genetic ancestry in these islands stretches back millenia.

    But, unfortunately for your cause, that is not the definition that holds in ‘mainstream British discourse’, by which I mean from the perspective of the great majority of the native population, who would tend to have a more pragmatic interpretation. I suspect that ‘mainstream Indian discourse’ would have a similar perspective on what constitutes an indigenous Indian. The Indian government would certainly seem to concur, since it will issue ‘Persons of Indian Origin’ certificates and ‘Overseas Citizenship of India’ status to anyone who meets the necessary criteria of ‘Indian-ness’, based principally on ancestry.

    I’d like to pick up on a couple of complimentary remarks you made about Hitler on the now-closed thread:

    Please provide full details on further policies and actions authorised by Adolf Hitler which you admire and which the BNP should directly emulate. Since you have publicly made these remarks on a globally-accessible website, presumably it should also not be an issue for the BNP leadership to formally & publicly declare direct inspiration from various aspects of Hitler’s ideology and activities, including the usage of Hitler on campaign posters as per the recent attempts to use Jesus in a similar manner, eg. “What would Hitler do ? Vote BNP”.

    Please feel free to use the relevant German terms from the period too.

    I believe if you look back at the earlier thread, and read a little more attentively, you might discern that what you are characterising as ‘complimentary remarks’ about Hitler were in fact citations from the historical record. I don’t propose to discuss the Third Reich with you since debating such such matters with a historical illiterate is like wrestling an armless man. It’s unsporting and un-British, and I won’t do it on principle.

    But, if it’s complimentary remarks about Herr Hitler that you are after, then I will leave you with the words of Winston Churchill.

    … Those who have met Hitler face to face in public, business, or on social terms, have found a highly competent, cool, well-informed functionary with an agreeable manner, a discerning smile, and few have been unaffected by a subtle personal magnetism. Nor is this impression merely the dazzle of power. He exerted it on his companions at every stage in his struggle, even when his fortunes were in the lowest depths …. One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations. [WSC writing in September 1937]

  83. persephone — on 20th April, 2010 at 8:58 am  

    “Nick Griffin’s pronouncements on QT regarding indigenousness should not be taken literally. The truth of the matter is that he was poorly briefed and ended up floundering around, making injudicious claims. It incorrect to claim to claim that the re-population of the British Isles commenced 17 kya and it is also incorrect to state to claim that most Britons can claim descent from the autochthonous hunter-gatherers who emerged from the Ice Age refugia and spread over much of western Europe in the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. Now that Griffin’s claims have been dismissed ”

    So Nick Griffin is poorly briefed, incorrect, flounders, makes injudicious claims which ought to be dismissed.

    It begs the question, that if Griffin , as the leader and supporter of what is ‘indigenous’ – a fundamental and integral part of bnp political strategy – is wrong on what is the lynchpin of their strategy, what other aspects is he so similarly wrong about. Especially since as the leader he signs off and develops the strategy and is ultimately responsible for it and the party including recruiting people who cannot adequately brief him for a national programme such as QT.

    Or it could simply be that the indigenous strategy lacks foundation upon scrutiny.

  84. persephone — on 20th April, 2010 at 9:59 am  

    “Nick Griffin’s pronouncements on QT regarding indigenousness should not be taken literally. The truth of the matter is that he was poorly briefed and ended up floundering around, making injudicious claims. It incorrect to claim to claim that the re-population of the British Isles commenced 17 kya and it is also incorrect to state to claim that most Britons can claim descent from the autochthonous hunter-gatherers who emerged from the Ice Age refugia and spread over much of western Europe in the Late Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic. Now that Griffin’s claims have been dismissed ”

    So Nick Griffin is poorly briefed, incorrect, flounders, makes injudicious claims which ought to be dismissed..

    It begs the question, that if Griffin , as the leader and supporter of what is ‘indigenous’ – a fundamental and integral part of bnp political strategy – is wrong on what is the lynchpin of their strategy, what other aspects is he so similarly wrong about. Especially as the leader he signs off and develops the strategy and is ultimately responsible for it and the party including recruiting people who cannot adequately brief him for a national programme such as QT. It could simply be that the indigenous strategy lacks foundation upon scrutiny.

  85. Jai — on 20th April, 2010 at 10:12 am  

    “Dan Dare”,

    Well it really depends on the definition of indigenous. You have chosen to settle on ‘who was here first’ as the one and only true definition, since it suits your political objective.

    Actually that is simply a logical extrapolation of the BNP’s own definition. It is on the basis of “being here first” that you would like to able to claim for people descended from Angles, Saxons, Normans and Norse Vikings greater entitlement than, for example, non-white British citizens, since it suits your own political objective.

    Yet Celts were in Britain long, long before Angles, Saxons, Normans and Norse Vikings, and therefore it stands to reason that the BNP should correspondingly acknowledge that – again, as a logical extrapolation of the BNP’s own reasoning – people exclusively descended from Celts have a far, far greater claim to “indigenousness” and the corresponding entitlement than anyone who is descended from the latter groups.

    You would like to be able to claim for recent Afro-Asian entrants the same entitlement as people whose genetic ancestry in these islands stretches back millenia.

    The only people whose genetic ancestry in these islands genuinely stretches back millennia are those exclusively descended from Celts.

    But, unfortunately for your cause, that is not the definition that holds in ‘mainstream British discourse’, by which I mean from the perspective of the great majority of the native population, who would tend to have a more pragmatic interpretation.

    You are no more of a position to unilaterally make assertions about “the perspective of the great majority of the native population” of Britain than Bal Thackeray of the Shiv Sena and his fellow Hindutva ideologues in the RSS and the Bajrang Dal are in any position to unilaterally make accurate assertions about “the perspective of the great majority of the population of India”.

    In fact, you and your alleged colleagues at the BNP are no more of a position to unilaterally act as self-appointed spokesmen for so-called “indigenous British” people than Anjem Choudary is in a position to unilaterally act as a self-appointed spokesman for Britain’s Muslim population. And yet you unwittingly continue to reinforce the BNP’s intrinsic similarity to Al-Muhajiroun with every single thing you say and do on this blog.

    I suspect that ‘mainstream Indian discourse’ would have a similar perspective on what constitutes an indigenous Indian.

    The only genuinely indigenous Indians are those descended from what you termed “Negritos”.

    And the only people in India who think otherwise, irrespective of your plucked-out-of-thin-air “suspicion”, are predominantly-ostracised fringe organisations such as the Shiv Sena, the RSS and the Bajrang Dal. Once again, they are of course your near-exact counterparts in India, and are reviled, rejected and ridiculed by the vast majority of India’s 1 billion+ population.

    You seem to have a habit of making reckless assertions and then being unable to support them when challenged.

    The Indian government would certainly seem to concur, since it will issue ‘Persons of Indian Origin’ certificates and ‘Overseas Citizenship of India’ status to anyone who meets the necessary criteria of ‘Indian-ness’, based principally on ancestry.

    More accurately, it refers to anyone who was born in India after 1947 or who has at least one Indian parent. In fact, spouses of PIOs are also entitled to be issued with PIO certificates, irrespective of their own ethnicity.

    All of which is a very far cry indeed from the BNP’s own fixation with “genetic ancestry stretching back millennia.”

    I believe if you look back at the earlier thread, and read a little more attentively, you might discern that what you are characterising as ‘complimentary remarks’ about Hitler were in fact citations from the historical record. I don’t propose to discuss the Third Reich with you

    I doubt most of your target audience would be interested in ploughing through a thread consisting of nearly 500 comments in order to extract the relevant information. For the benefit of this website’s wider readership, please expand on the specific policies originating in Hitler and the Third Reich which the BNP should adopt and publicly declare inspiration from, again using the requisite historical German terms as and when required.

    a historical illiterate

    “Psychological projection” at its finest.

    But, if it’s complimentary remarks about Herr Hitler that you are after, then I will leave you with the words of Winston Churchill.

    … Those who have met Hitler face to face in public, business, or on social terms, have found a highly competent, cool, well-informed functionary with an agreeable manner, a discerning smile, and few have been unaffected by a subtle personal magnetism. Nor is this impression merely the dazzle of power. He exerted it on his companions at every stage in his struggle, even when his fortunes were in the lowest depths …. One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations. [WSC writing in September 1937]

    If the BNP leadership feels that Hitler has been unfairly misrepresented in British society, the forthcoming public release of the BNP’s new General Election manifesto (presumably in the presence of the media) would be the perfect opportunity to set the record straight once and for all. In fact, that’s exactly what Nick Griffin should do, and he should also make sure that he quotes the complimentary remarks about Hitler above by Churchill verbatim and in full, including an emphatic reference to both the source and the year in which they were written.

    Don’t you agree ?

  86. Jai — on 20th April, 2010 at 10:14 am  

    (continued)

    “Dan Dare”,

    And to return full-circle to the starting point, it’s instructive to note that in its new constitution the BNP has jettisoned all the ice age nonsense and now defines Indigenous Briton as follows:

    “Indigenous British” means together that group of nations and or communities historically indigenous to our British Homeland, being the first and aboriginal peoples of our British Homeland, and which group consists of the English, the Irish, the Ulster Scots, the Scots, and the Welsh racial groups and any sub sects of the same; and which racial groups it is believed by many are referred to as the British and Irish ethnic groups in the ethnic group categories used for the purposes of the 2001 Census for England and Wales;
    …
    For the purpose of our Constitution the phrase “historically indigenous” means those racial groups whose collective, common or shared ancestors are continuously traceable or are bona fide believed by members of such racial groups to be continuously traceable back in the case of:-

    3.1 the Indigenous British, in our British Homeland before the commencement of the time of legal memory;

    As you’ve stated yourself on the now-closed thread, assertions about BNP policies from BNP members are worthless unless they “have the Chairman’s thumbprint” on them. This obviously also applies to your own ongoing comments about such matters here on Pickled Politics, unless you are prepared to send a formal written declaration in an email from an authenticated BNP email account to this website’s editorial team via both of the contacts forms here http://www.pickledpolitics.com/contact , as follows :

    “I, [insert full name], formally confirm in writing and on the record that I am officially a member of the BNP, that my statements and assertions on the comments threads of the blog ‘Pickled Politics’ are an accurate representation of the BNP’s political ideology, goals and intentions, and that I have been fully authorised to speak for and represent the BNP on ‘Pickled Politics’ regarding these matters directly by the Chairman of the BNP, Mr Nick Griffin.”

    Unless you do the above, any statements you make here regarding the BNP are worthless; furthermore, failure to do so would also raise questions about the validity of your claims to allegedly be a member of the BNP. For all anyone knows, you could just be someone pretending to be a BNP member and commenting on this blog in an attempt to promote some nefarious agenda geared towards the detriment of the BNP.

  87. Jai — on 20th April, 2010 at 10:14 am  

    As a general observation, I see that our visitors from al-BNP have been busy promoting their delusional 19th century worldview on this website during the weekend and are continuing to do so, complete with an unhealthy Victorian obsession with “racial purity”, “lineages” and “classifications”. Not to mention the ongoing eugenics-driven efforts to contribute to the balkanisation of mankind by exploiting & distorting science in order to find excuses to splinter it into ever-smaller groups.

    It’s fascinating to observe the death throes of a 200-year-old cult of “monoracialism” which is itself a gross aberration in Britain’s millennia-old history and which was deliberately & duplicitously based on entirely falsified self-serving premises in the first place.

    The matter is compounded by the complete distortion of history, not just focusing on India but even Britain, a direct legacy of 19th century propaganda and historical falsification. Again, it’s not surprising at all where al-BNP is concerned, considering (for example) Nick Griffin’s completely false assertion that the last Ice Age ended “17,000 years ago”. He publicly made this claim on Question Time not once but repeatedly. Whether his claim was based on colossal ignorance (about a scientifically-established fact which is so widely known that it’s the equivalent of being unaware that Saturn possesses rings) or a deliberate lie is a matter of opinion – did he think that nobody would notice, or does he actually think that the millions watching were that stupid ? – but regardless of subsequent attempts to backtrack about the matter, if Nick Griffin and the BNP leadership as a whole can’t be trusted to speak the truth about a simple established fact like that, why should other BNP members or indeed the general public of the United Kingdom as a whole believe anything else they say ?

  88. Jai — on 20th April, 2010 at 10:42 pm  

    “Dan Dare”,

    Well it really depends on the definition of indigenous. You have chosen to settle on ‘who was here first’ as the one and only true definition, since it suits your political objective.

    Actually that is simply a logical extrapolation of the BNP’s own definition. It is on the basis of “being here first” that you would like to able to claim for people descended from Angles, Saxons, Normans and Norse Vikings greater entitlement than, for example, non-white British citizens, since it suits your own political objective.

    Yet Celts were in Britain long, long before Angles, Saxons, Normans and Norse Vikings, and therefore it stands to reason that the BNP should correspondingly acknowledge that –- again, as a logical extrapolation of the BNP’s own reasoning –- people exclusively descended from Celts have a far, far greater claim to “indigenousness” and the corresponding entitlement than anyone who is descended from the latter groups.

    You would like to be able to claim for recent Afro-Asian entrants the same entitlement as people whose genetic ancestry in these islands stretches back millenia.

    The only people whose genetic ancestry in these islands genuinely stretches back millennia are those exclusively descended from Celts.

    But, unfortunately for your cause, that is not the definition that holds in ‘mainstream British discourse’, by which I mean from the perspective of the great majority of the native population, who would tend to have a more pragmatic interpretation.

    You are no more of a position to unilaterally make assertions about “the perspective of the great majority of the native population” of Britain than Bal Thackeray of the Shiv Sena and his fellow Hindutva ideologues in the RSS and the Bajrang Dal are in any position to unilaterally make accurate assertions about “the perspective of the great majority of the population of India”.

    In fact, you and your alleged colleagues at the BNP are no more of a position to unilaterally act as self-appointed spokesmen for “indigenous British” people than Anjem Choudary is in a position to unilaterally act as a self-appointed spokesman for Britain’s Muslim population. And yet you unwittingly continue to reinforce the BNP’s intrinsic similarity to Al-Muhajiroun with every single thing you say and do on this blog.

    I suspect that ‘mainstream Indian discourse’ would have a similar perspective on what constitutes an indigenous Indian.

    The only genuinely indigenous Indians are those descended from what you termed “Negritos”.

    And the only people in India who think otherwise, irrespective of your plucked-out-of-thin-air “suspicion”, are predominantly-ostracised fringe organisations such as the Shiv Sena, the RSS and the Bajrang Dal. Once again, they are of course your near-exact counterparts in India, and are reviled, rejected and ridiculed by the vast majority of India’s 1 billion+ population.

    You seem to have a habit of making reckless assertions and then being unable to support them when challenged.

    The Indian government would certainly seem to concur, since it will issue ‘Persons of Indian Origin’ certificates and ‘Overseas Citizenship of India’ status to anyone who meets the necessary criteria of ‘Indian-ness’, based principally on ancestry.

    More accurately, it refers to anyone who was born in a territory that became part of India after 1947 or who has at least one Indian parent. In fact, spouses of PIOs are also entitled to be issued with PIO certificates, irrespective of their own ethnicity.

    All of which is a very far cry indeed from the BNP’s own fixation with “genetic ancestry stretching back millennia.”

    I believe if you look back at the earlier thread, and read a little more attentively, you might discern that what you are characterising as ‘complimentary remarks’ about Hitler were in fact citations from the historical record. I don’t propose to discuss the Third Reich with you

    I doubt most of your target audience would be interested in ploughing through a thread consisting of nearly 500 comments in order to extract the relevant information. For the benefit of this website’s wider readership, please expand on the specific policies originating in Hitler and the Third Reich which the BNP should adopt and publicly declare inspiration from, again using the requisite historical German terms as and when required.

    I don’t propose to discuss the Third Reich with you since debating such such matters with a historical illiterate

    “Psychological projection” at its finest.

    But, if it’s complimentary remarks about Herr Hitler that you are after, then I will leave you with the words of Winston Churchill.

    … Those who have met Hitler face to face in public, business, or on social terms, have found a highly competent, cool, well-informed functionary with an agreeable manner, a discerning smile, and few have been unaffected by a subtle personal magnetism. Nor is this impression merely the dazzle of power. He exerted it on his companions at every stage in his struggle, even when his fortunes were in the lowest depths …. One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations. [WSC writing in September 1937]

    If the BNP leadership feels that Hitler has been unfairly misrepresented, the forthcoming public release of the BNP’s new General Election manifesto (presumably in the presence of the media) would be the perfect opportunity to set the record straight once and for all. In fact, that’s exactly what Nick Griffin should do, and he should also make sure that he quotes the complimentary remarks about Hitler above by Churchill verbatim and in full, including an emphatic reference to both the source and the year in which they were written.

    Don’t you agree ?

  89. XXX — on 28th April, 2010 at 10:49 pm  

    What about the BBC Asian Network, fat Bobby Friction and that Sri Lankan who plays Bhangra – should we keep them fed and watered?

    Or is everyone having some (can’t be bothered to read it all) argument over DNA?

  90. Kismet Hardy — on 13th May, 2010 at 9:32 am  
  91. Mofo — on 14th May, 2010 at 1:21 am  

    Da numbers don’t lie, innit Mr Hardy. Let’s face it, nobody cares about BBC Asian Network except the presenters, the minions who work there and the (let’s face the music – pun intended) sub-standard Asian artists who would not get a look in if license payers money was not propping up their Royalty cheques. FACT.

    If I was trying to save it’s ass. I would cancel the Bhangra flashmob. It will be badly attended and expose that fact that ppl don’t care much for it.
    Let’s move it on. Da party’s over an no one gives a samosa.

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