More on the BNP chemicals case
There seems to be more than meets the eye to the story of two men arrested last week for possessing chemicals, rocket launchers and more.
Why did the story not make national headlines as it should have? Various reasons seem to be attributed to this. Earlier today I spoke to one BBC exec who found it “utterly bizarre” they missed the story. He first saw it on Pickled Politics and flagged it up to others, who were caught unaware.
The BBC national news team relies on various channels to feed them information. Among them are their own reporters, feeds from news wire services such as PA and stories flagged up by local radio teams. In this case, for whatever reason, it seems neither of these channels fed the story back to “the system”, I was told.
This came from a source who would have loved to do the story. But PA did not pick it up, BBC Radio Lancashire did not flag it up and the police did not inform the national press. You may ask why they didn’t? Wasn’t it a big story?
Well, it seems, not according to the police. Another reporter I spoke to today said the police played down their statements after initial comments. Robert Cottage is still remanded in custody, as the Burnley Citizen reported, and will appear at Burnley Crown Court on the 23rd.
But contrary to reports in the Pendle Today and NW Evening Mail, David Bolus Jackson has been released, as I understand it, and will not appear in court. I have been told the police have also backed down on their statements insinuating there was a “masterplan”.
So there are a few added complications. It may have been that because the police subsequently played down the arrests the story was not picked up.
Once the national media did get wind of the story through blogs it was old news. Firstly, I was told, they have to be contemporaneous with stories. Secondly, digging into the story once the men had been remanded in custody for a few days may jeapordise a fair trial and be in contempt of court.
Admittedly, for a large organisation such as the BBC, this is a very poor excuse. But given that I spoke to people genuinely interested in running the story, it seems like the most plausible one.
This also makes it difficult to ask too many questions now about the arrests or the impending trial in case it looks like an editorial could influence the trial. Only basic facts, as the Asian Image reported, can be allowed.
But it is perfectly legitimate to ask why many of these restrictions do not seem to apply when British Muslim suspects are picked up or a police raid is conducted, as was the case in Forest Gate.
Either way it looks as if there are a few red faces around the BBC and some parts of Fleet Street. It is likely the media will be out in full force on the 23rd.
P.S. Ministry of Truth questions whether Jackson was indeed ‘ex-BNP’.
Good article sunny.
Unlike Muslim groups, the BNP is not a violent or terrorist organisation, and unlike those same Muslims, are not and have never been plotting rerrorism.
Played down because Police thought it may result in Mosques being blown up all over the country.
I have read the article in the Burnley report and it says quite categorically that ONLY one of the men had had any previous dealings with the BNP. He had resigned from the BNP (ex-BNP ??), so why are you heading this story so misleadingly (as if we didn’t know?)
The BNP are not the fascists and racists that you and the BBC/Home Office would like to portray us as.
We are simply a group of people who are intent on not having our culture in this country diluted by multiculterism. We have never been asked whether we want it. What are we suposed to do - allow the whole of the Indian sub-continent into these already over-crowded isles ? Without a complaint ? Of course not.
Excellent piece Sunny. Interesting to see that bloggers really are ahead of the game at times that an organisation as big and well funded as the BBC…
Unlike Muslim groups, the BNP is not a violent or terrorist organisation, and unlike those same Muslims, are not and have never been plotting rerrorism.
Never heard of the Brixton bomber?
“We are simply a group of people who are intent on not having our culture in this country diluted by multiculterism.” vigorniensis, you case would be strenghtened slightly if you could spell “Multiculturalism”
Vigorniensis, why don’t you start by kicking out the Saxons? Or the Normans? How about Queen Elizabeth II and her Greek boyfriend?
=>”We are simply a group of people who are intent on not having our culture in this country diluted by multiculterism.”
Given the American influence on British culture via the media for several decades now (at least), I think it’s accurate to say that “British culture” in its “unadulterated” form has been diluted for a very long time now.
Same applies to, for example, the black influence on British popular music.
Perhaps what is being suggested is rolling the clock back to the 1950s, pre-Elvis. Interesting thought…..
Would that kind of British culture be “pure” enough for the BNP, I wonder ?
Would that kind of British culture be “pure” enough for the BNP, I wonder ?
Paganism?
nothing is ever pure enough to satisfy people who think like that. i mean e.g. when so many asian families say about not having their culture diluted by ‘corrupt western values’ - all similar sort of thinking - anything they don’t like they’ll say ah there’s the corrupt western influence!
in any case there’s never any such thing as ‘unadulterated culture’. all a figment of people’s imagination - wishful thinking i call it. just like all the silly rubbish about ‘pure blood’.
his third world friends
Who the hell are you calling third world? I was born here you dolt!
LOL @jane.
The BNP are a civilsed party? Have you seen Redwatch?
=>”Some of the comments from Sunny and his third world friends seems all to be expected.”
Most people here are highly-educated professionals; many, myself included, went to private schools, have top-tier university educations (both undergraduate and postgraduate degrees), and work in the “professions” such as medicine or, alternatively, in blue-chip companies in the consulting or financial services sectors.
“Third world” is about as far off the mark as you can get.
And the majority were born here too.
ROFLOL!
One sentence he says this:
The BNP have turned out to be a very civilised party.
Next sentence this:
Sunny and his third world friends seems all to be expected.
Hmmmm…..very civilised indeed, the dark brown third world ethnics…
Anyway, where did the BNP savants arise from? They must have been visiting from Harry’s Place I suppose.
Third World friends?
Yeah, here I am. Waves at third class BNP tossers.
I miss the days of rucking in the street with racists
***joins sid in waving**
next time there’s talk of privilege remind me to bring up the Third World.
Jai - Of course it wasn’t pure enough for them then, ‘we’ were here.
[Unlike Muslim groups, the BNP is not a violent or terrorist organisation, and unlike those same Muslims, are not and have never been plotting rerrorism]
reminds me of the time i saw 5 bnp skinheads jump on a poor asian lady and actually carry her home. twas amazing. we should all be more like the bnp.
Let’s see what happens to media coverage when it comes to trial. Then we can truly discern the red faces from racist ones.
Sorry, but who are redwatch? What are their aims?
Sorry you are offended, but fact is you ARE from third world countries no matter what school or university you attended your educatation paid for from OUR pockets.
You’re talking bullshit. I’m not from a third world country I was born here. And who is ‘our’? Of the BNP supporters and members what proportion of tax actually went anywhere near funding a BME persons education? C’mon, let’s have some figures Ms Lomas.
Sorry you are offended, but fact is you ARE from third world countries no matter what school or university you attended your educatation paid for from OUR pockets
No you racist scumbag - our education was paid for by the taxes of the society to which our grandparents and parents and families contribute, and to which we contribute now.
Folks, cn we please avoid getting riled up by trolls? I will be deleting the blatantly racist messages anyway.
Most of your families Jagdeep were on benefits..maybe they still are.This is why OUR council taxes are so high.Moreover don’t you think you should return to your mother country to help your own third world poor?
Sunny,
I think its worth hearing Jane’s arguments. Only then can they be challenged.
If she intends only to offend, then delete away.
jane jane jane jane jane…
If you’re going to raise the ugly subject of money, let it be known that its foreign tuition fees paid by 3rd world students that keeps our universities afloat.
Furthermore, I probably pay more in taxes than you EARN in a year, to pay for social services to keep you and your misbegotten knuckle-dragging sprogs on chips and chinese takeaways. I don’t mind, as long as you stay on those shitty god-forsaken estates and out of my way.
Now fuck off and stop soiling this thread with your foul presence.
Yeah you’re right Sunny - the teeth must be grinding of this racist diaorrheal dribble. Best ignore the smell.
Jane,
What’s Redwatch? I gather you are BNP, try asking Tony Wentworth or Mark Collett.
Most of your families Jagdeep were on benefits..maybe they still are.This is why OUR council taxes are so high.Moreover don’t you think you should return to your mother country to help your own third world poor?
Remarkable skill, you’ve just gone from offensive and ignorant to comedic and irrelevant in the blink of the eye!
Sid,
For goodness sake. Lets put up a reasoned argument.
For example, if we follow Jane’s suggestion and apply it universally, Jane would need to accomodate most of the US and Australian population here in our green and pleasant land. Estimated population of UK, 200 million?
Also there was a time when the British Isles (along with the rest of Europe) the third world of its day.
Refresh
come on, all I’m trying to do is precipitate a full on flame war with these c*nts. Could be well relaxing.
Refresh - Now it’s my turn to be intemperate. There are some people with whom it is not possible to put up a reasoned argument. Telling her how educated one is will only further infuriate her, and she would probably welcome the thought of 200 million ‘white’ people returning.
No not BNP yet,but maybe soon.Yes,indigenous english.Yes,my forbears built the infrastructure of this lovely country.Yes, strongly object to third worlders such as your ungreatful selves for over populating OUR small country..think you will find my view tallies with the views of the majority of the indigenous population.No,cannot understand why you are SO anti against the good christian people who gave you a home.Yes,really do think you should be deported back to your OWN countries for your ouright traitorous views against this MY country.
sid - BTW I hope you don’t mean me. Katy and I are guilty of having had a Chinese takeaway last night
Chairwoman, Sid,
The question, if I might remind ourselves, is why would ex-BNP want to be involved with building chemical bombs?
Jane, what is your view?
And I too have some issues with the idea that being well-off and well-educated gives anyone an argument against the BNP.
hey jane, love your spelling (ungreateful) …bwaahhahahaha! Seriously guys, ppl like Jane need to feel warm and cosy in their racist hole. She needs us to validate her views of foreigners. I will tell you that nothing will get them more riled than this:-
I AM NOT WHITE AND PROUD TO BE BRITISH!!! I AM NOT CHRISTIAN BUT HAPPY TO BE HERE!!!
Thank you.
Refresh #40, you’re right of course. Totally.
Ms Lomas - As English is your mother tongue, as it is mine, not to mention your birthright and heritage, could you please explain why your grammar and spelling are so dreadful?
Yes,really do think you should be deported back to your OWN countries for your ouright traitorous views against this MY country.
HAHAHAHAHA! This is MY country I was born here!:P
I can’t help but smile at these ‘indiginous English’ Christian types who maybe don’t know that Britain was a Celtic, pagan country before the Anglo-Saxons came with Fire and the Sword. And wasn’t the infrastructure built largely by Irish navvies? And loads of other immigrants too? How about learning some of the history of this beautiful country?
Sunny,
I have got to demolish our BNP supporter’s statements. Please feel free to delete everything as per your discretion, but in the meantime I have to respond.
Jane,
=>”no matter what school or university you attended your educatation paid for from OUR pockets.”
Rubbish. Going to a private school means one’s parents pay for the fees. And by the way, my father is a doctor. Shall we do some calculations to see how many “indigenous British” lives my father has saved during the past 35 years ?
Yes ? No ?
And I paid for my postgraduate degree myself, thank you.
Let’s take it further. Assuming you actually have a job and work in the private sector, exactly how much revenue do you earn for your employer ? Are you in the 40% tax bracket ? How much profit do you personally assist in generating ? To what extent have you facilitated global business transformation programmes ?
Shall we do some further calculations and see exactly which of us contributes more this country’s economy and to its worldwide business competitiveness ? If you want to make this about money — which is something I don’t agree with, but both me and Sid are obviously more than capable of taking you on — let’s see which of us is actually a more “valuable” citizen to the United Kingdom.
=>”No,cannot understand why you are SO anti against the good christian people who gave you a home.”
Neither Jagdeep, nor myself, nor Sunny or anyone else who is a regular on this website is “anti” Christian or “anti” anyone else from Britain. Wrong website, wrong audience.
In any case, there is nothing “Christian” about your own attitudes or the basis of the BNP. You’re a hypocrite — even worse, a religious hypocrite. Which places you in the same league as Anjem Choudary, Abu Izadeen, and the rest of the treasonous wannabe jihadis. Congratulations.
Furthermore, your own views directly contradict everything the British, the Allied powers, and the millions of Commonwealth soldiers fought against the Nazis for during the Second World War. You yourself are therefore a traitor — there is nothing British about your racist attitudes, and you violate the very principles and ideals this country is based on.
In that sense, there is nothing “British” about the British National Party. The name itself is an oxymoron.
And, most ironically of all, your own ideology is closer to the most regressive far-right groups in the so-called “third world” countries you despise. The most backward, “Third World” person on this website right now is you. The same applies to the BNP as a whole.
You’re obsolete, outclassed, and outsmarted. If you can find nothing else to occupy your time and make yourself falsely feel “important”, go right ahead. The rest of us have real lives to live.
Lomas is a Saxon name originating in Cheshire.
Guys don’t bother with this troll.
Damn good show, Jai.
Love how almost everyone else, who’re usually partial to expounding the need for dialogue with extremists, just flies directly into abuse mode when an extremist hoves into view.
the Anglo- Saxons didn’t come with the Sword either..they were pagans at first.
“And I too have some issues with the idea that being well-off and well-educated gives anyone an argument against the BNP”
yeah me too. everyone benefits from other people’s taxes - so what?
definitely it’s still international students who subsidize the cost of home student fees!
anyhow.
Galloise Blonde,
(I) ‘I can’t help but smile at these ‘indiginous English’ Christian types who maybe don’t know that Britain was a Celtic, pagan country before the Anglo-Saxons came with Fire and the Sword.’
Dwi’n gwybod. Be wyt ti’n trio ddweud?
(II) ‘And wasn’t the infrastructure built largely by Irish navvies? And loads of other immigrants too? How about learning some of the history of this beautiful country?’
Fashionable claims that we are a ‘nation of immigrants’ are very, very misleading. Yes: I am aware that Celts, Romans, Vikings, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Normans and Irish all came to or lived on these islands in the previous two thousand years or thereabouts. But from 1066 until very recently, there were very few immigrants of any kind to this island, and Britain developed its own distinct national character – to which those immigrants adapted. Past migrations, of Jutes and Jews or Normans and Huguenots, have never been on anything like the current scale. Fact.
I hate the BNP – not because it is pro-British or that it opposes mass immigration or the intelligentsia’s suicidal embrace of multiculturalism – but because it is a racist party. It’s as simple as that. Case closed. Stop pandering to hateful trolls.
Amir
Trying to deprogram an extremist is a job for a professional.
It can be fun to either take the piss out of them, or just give a rousing statement of your own beliefs (nice one, Jai), though.
Jai,
In any case, there is nothing “Christian” about your own attitudes or the basis of the BNP. You’re a hypocrite — even worse, a religious hypocrite. Which places you in the same league as Anjem Choudary, Abu Izadeen, and the rest of the treasonous wannabe jihadis. Congratulations.
Spot on!!
Would the NHS, and many other public services, even have been viable without immigrant labour?
also, I don’t know about all this rubbish about the third world. Many parts of Glasgow are now at about third world standards in terms of deprivation, standards of living, health, etc. Does that make me, a Glaswegian, part of the third world?
yeah and many parts of the so-called Third World are richer/well off etc. everyone knows such designations are facile.
Amir, come on, I was just teasing the idea that being ‘indiginous’ gives you some kind of authority to pass judgement on who gets in.
No, I don’t mean who gets in, I mean who gets deported. Sorry.
Sonia,
‘yeah and many parts of the so-called Third World are richer/well off etc. everyone knows such designations are facile.’
Okay. If there’s no such thing as a Third World Nation then why don’t you swap your nice gaff in London for a dusty hovel in Angola, Senegal, Timor-Leste, Rwanda, Benin, Tanzania, Malawi, Chad, Congo, Sierra Leone, Burnudi or Zambia,?
No…? I didn’t think so.
Amir
Amir - I’m interested in something. How do your policies or ideas differentiate from the BNP? They say they’re not racist. They say they don’t hate people of other colours, just don’t want them destroying British “heritage” or whatever. They talk of the indigenous whites or whatever.
So, ignore the labels for a second. I want to know how you see yourself different from the BNP. It is a genuine question.
Amir I don’t think that was the point Sonia was making. There are in fact places in the poorest parts of the world which are richer than the poorest parts of our country.
Britain was described by the UN a few years back of having a third world train system. Katrina revealed just how close to the third world some parts of the US are.
Leon,
‘Britain was described by the UN a few years back of having a third world train system. Katrina revealed just how close to the third world some parts of the US are.’
STILL, the distinctions between a First, Second, and Third World country is a valid one and can measured across four axioms: Gross National Income (GNI), Human Development, Poverty, and Freedom.
Amir
Okay Sunny,…
Wait a sec
Just seen your question…
[wait a few minutes]
Jai # 46
That person got a good whipping there! I believe the youngsters on the street today, call that getting ‘owned’!
This is a sight to behold. Sunny and Amir finally talking.
Can’t wait for the reply.
the distinctions between a First, Second, and Third World country is a valid one and can measured across four axioms
I don’t disagree with that but that wasn’t the point.
Haha! She’s back, this is the best comedy ever! I aint Muslim so your pathetic jibes are water off a ducks back.
“STILL, the distinctions between a First, Second, and Third World country is a valid one and can measured across four axioms: Gross National Income (GNI), Human Development, Poverty, and Freedom.”
I don’t really agree. What is Human development? Is this the HDI by the UN??
Poverty is also a bit of an issue: that’s the crux of what Sonnia said, some parts of LDCs are very affluent, but the majority badly off. So I would rather look at both absolute and relative poverty in the states. Unfortunately, when 40 millions americans have no health plan, when they get sick, they are in poverty.
Lastly, what is freedom? I really don’t want another freedom of speech issue, but many countries ban drugs, incitement to hatred, etc. SO are talking about civil rights, or more generally the freedom of civil and social mobility. And I’m not really aware of any index ranking such a broad definition of freedom.
Ok Sunny - you were right. Please go ahead and delete her.
You were right and I was wrong - no talking to some people.
You’re both right and wrong; the bnp doesn’t advocate violence towards anyone and i think its a disservice to start claiming they do. There is no policy as far as im aware for organised attacks on anyone. They cannot be blamed for the actions of David Copeland anymore than a particular mosque/gurdwara/synagogue/church/mandir can be blamed for the actions of one of its congregation. The bnp doesn’t even allude to having an armed military wing; its just a political party, and as much as i may disagree with their views i don’t support demonising them into something they are not.
On the otherhand its nonsensical to compare ‘muslim groups’ vaguely and as a whole to one white nationalist political party. There are violent white supremacist organisations, and using them as an example of ‘white groups’ would be absurd.
Sorry to disappoint you, not Muslim, not even Asian.
Well said Kulvinder..Like them or loathe them the BNP are a non marching,non violent,political party.If they come to power they will politely ask the anti-british/democracy types to leave.That would almost certainly include a few bloggers on this anti-British web site.
Sex with children has never been a problem in british society and it isn’t a problem today, despite what the tabloids say. The age of consent is completely distinct to the idea of ’sex with children’ and as a result every culture around the world has developed its own ‘age of consent’ As a libertarian i obviously think any state ordained ‘age of consent’ is ridiculous statism and would use concepts similar to the fraser competence to decide any such matters (or things even things like driving licenses). As it is there is no other answer to why people in different cultures have sex at different ages other than, well, they’re different cultures. Trying to universally justify your particular opinion is little more than cultural imperialism.
Personally i don’t see why its conceptually better to admire churchill over muhammad. Incidently they don’t worship him and its a sign of ignorance to say they do.
Chairwoman,your not a Liberal are you!
If they come to power they will politely ask the anti-british/democracy types to leave.
Of course and the history of fascism shows that when in power they act nicely and politely request people they don’t like leave the country.
Well said Kulvinder..Like them or loathe them the BNP are a non marching,non violent,political party.If they come to power they will politely ask the anti-british/democracy types to leave.That would almost certainly include a few bloggers on this anti-British web site.
I will gladly vote BNP if you put yourself on the banana boat Jane.
n.b. to clarify before someone asks, the age of consent is 16; the age at which you’re no longer considered a minor is 18. Ignore the tabloid hysterics.
Why would that be so different to the way illegal immigrants are treated now? The BNP would simply change the law to make all immigrants illegal; then use the same methods used at the moment for deportation. They may well ignore the potential abuse in the country they’re deporting to, but we do that now. The only real difference between the end result endorsed by the BNP and the main political parties at the moment is the definition of ‘illegal’.
I don’t understand the marching bit.
Jagdeep, Bert Preast, Amir, Soru,
Thanks for your response to my previous post. I think I would’ve felt better about it if our BNP-supporting friend wasn’t obviously a 14-year-old schoolgirl, or someone with the mentality and maturity of one. As it stands, this felt like shooting fish in a barrel.
Perhaps if a “real” member of the BNP came to this thread and made their opinions known, we could systematically deconstruct their arguments. However, I’m not sure if they would necessarily “show their hand” so obviously, as it would undermine the superficially respectable public image they’ve recently been trying to cultivate. Not that it’s fooling any of us, of course.
In the meantime, at least any lurkers from the BNP currently reading PP now know that they are opposed by people who are a little tougher and smarter than they may have assumed.
Jane, you are a troll, aren’t you? Not even the BNP can hold a candle to your inherent stupidity.
Sunny,
“How do your policies or ideas differentiate from the BNP? They say they’re not racist. They say they don’t hate people of other colours, just don’t want them destroying British “heritage” or whatever. They talk of the indigenous whites or whatever.”
Well, for starters, I’d like to point out that I do not have “any policies”. I am a working-class lad with not so much as an iota of political or intellectual influence. I probably earn less income in a week than most of you guys and gals do in an hour. When you mention my name in the same breath as Rod Liddle or Melanie Philips, I feel flattered, of course, but it is an unfortunate truism to point out that I do not influence anyone of note. If, however, you mean “policies” as a synonym for “beliefs”, then the question you pose is a valid one.
Secondly, I’d like to stress that this is an exercise in logic – not ‘guilt by association.’ If people on this forum insist on making spurious comparisons with the BNP, then let me remind you of your fellow-travellers in the anti-war camp. Yes: they include Nick Griffin, Jorg Haider, David Duke and Jean-Marie Le Pen (among others). The question you pose, therefore, is automatically reversible.
I (unlike a large proportion of the Tory Party) am an old-fashioned conservative, or what they refer to in the United States as a ‘paleoconservative.’ I am for marriage and married life, privacy and positive liberty, local communities and the Welsh language, direct democracy, grammar schooling, God, the countryside, free speech, low taxes, retributive justice and self-discipline. I am against abortion, multiculturalism, mass immigration, Europe, ID Cards, devolution, talking to terrorists, nuclear disarmament and self-indulgent foreign policies (among others).
Liberals, who dominate the MSM in this principality and most of Europe, are supposed to be gentle and herbivorous, but in actual fact are arrogant, aggressive, poorly-read, and steeped in wealth and in comfort. Post-Thatcher Britain has been a disaster. It has schools that cannot teach, a health service that doesn’t function properly and public transport that is a disgrace, epidemic family breakdown and alcohol abuse. All of us are affected by a decline in manners, school discipline, the loss of an agreed moral code, the spread of architectural ugliness. I’m proud to be a reactionary. I’m proud to be a conservative.
Yes, there are similarities between my own views and those of the Far-Right – in much the same way that you and your own comrades pander to elements of the Far-Left. (I’d like to remind everyone, in conjunction with this claim, of Pickled Politics’ open flirtation with that bigoted homophobe Jamal from ‘Opinionated Voice’ and that pro-Hezbollah cretin from ‘Lenin’s Tomb’.).
But it is fair to say, also, that within these similarities are significant differences of opinion and emphasis. For instance: I oppose the current levels of immigration because it is having a destabilising effect on our inner-city areas and is destroying social cohesion - which, as any knowledgeable historian or sociologist will tell you, poses a very serious threat to intercommunal fraternity and consensual policing (which, in itself, is a vital prerequisite for freedom to flourish). There are other reasons too, i.e., the threat of illiberal cultural practices entering into our borders, such as, for instance, forced marriages, jihadism, female genital mutilation, Sharia Law, voodoo curses, and forced prostitution a la Bosnia or Albania. Added to this, I disapprove of multiculturalism because it is insensitive to the norms and customs and architecture of native peoples, or to put it another way: our mammalian species get very defensive when they feel that their cultural space is in jeopardy. Emboldening minorities and discouraging integration is bound to be seen by a vast number of Britons as an aggressive act of cultural imperialism. Which it is.
The BNP, on the other hand, detest immigrants and their offspring because of an aesthetic prejudice – that is to say, they’d prefer to live with Mr Jones and not Mr. Singh. It’s a type of subliminal snobbishness directed at a person’s skin colour and/or physical features. You cannot compare it to my own concerns – which are 100% cultural. I have no problem whatsoever with a Black or Brown Britain. It doesn’t worry me in the slightest. What concerns me is the age-old battle for hearts and minds. That’s why I detest Maddy Bunting just as much as I detest Abu Izzadeen. Period.
Curiously, you also take a pop at my political lexicon (i.e. “indigenous” and “heritage”). There is nothing at all remotely sinister or unreasonable about these words. They are both meaningful and relevant. Liberals (like yourself) and libertarians (like Sonia) tacitly assume that people live their lives in a vacuum, losing sight of the fact that vast areas of our lives are dictated by unchosen rules and habits. More often than not we act in ways specified by our social background when we walk, dress, play games, speak, and so on without having formulated any goals or made any choices. Once we have acknowledged this huge chunk of socio-psychological truth, it should become clearer why too rapid a change in the cultural and physical or linguistic landscape of our towns and cities is inexorably linked to mass alienation (that, I believe, is a Marxist term).
Amir
As a libertarian i obviously think any state ordained ‘age of consent’ is ridiculous statism and would use concepts similar to the fraser competence to decide any such matters (or things even things like driving licenses).
Kulvinder, you’re lost, totally lost.
Having sex with pre-pubescent girls is considered taboo in just about all cultures, except one.
Scotland traditionaly had no age of consent, hence the phrase of ‘going to gretna’
Who said all history was bunk ?
some facts and things,
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
Well, we have gone off on several tangents, haven’t we?
Back on message, it seems we won’t know until it comes to trial. But then it good be a case of poor journalism in the first place. I suspect it is. Chemicals? Rocket Launchers? BNP? Biggest haul-ever? I really don’t believe the national press would ignore this story willfully. I reckon it’s probably bollocks. On the other hand, I once believed the UK government surely wouldn’t take us into war for anything than compelling reasons. Who knows anymore?
One thing I do know though is that the idea that something has to be contemporaneous is no bar for doing a belated pickup. No way.
P.S. The Celtics were descended from Spanish fisherman. I claim this country for own. Fuck off the lot of you.
P.S. The Celtics were descended from Spanish fishermEn. I claim this country for MY own. Fuck off the lot of you.
(That’s better)
Having sex with pre-pubescent girls is considered taboo in just about all cultures, except one.
JP you tit. Hirsi-Ali’s Paedophile comment on the prophet Muhammed was not an attack on him but on Muslims who rigidly follow his example ie dressing like him.
Vikrant - Is there anything you don’t know?
it should become clearer why too rapid a change in the cultural and physical or linguistic landscape of our towns and cities is inexorably linked to mass alienation
Cant help but agree… not every place on earth should be turned into a multi-culti wasteland. Call it tribal mentality or whatever but an ethnic group native to a certain land will always resent mass migration… be it UK or India…
Keep up the fight against the harbingers of political correctness!
Nay, i’ll have to keep ma’ head down… They had a vote on whether to de-sysop me… got saved by measly 7 votes… ChiComs, Indian lefties and Iranians have been ganging up on me… i’m temporarily on a WikiBreak!
As long as im not totally totally lost.
What does that even mean? I couldn’t care less what a particular taboo was im much more interested in the intellectual argument behind a particular practise or event. Nothing has ever been taboo across all cultures and humanity, the very fact it can be shown that intercourse still takes place beyond the desired age limits of a particular country is testament to that. If we’re going to judge solely on passages in millennia old text its only fair we throw in genesis:19 where god decides to save lot and destroy s&g. If it wasn’t enough that lot offers his own virgin daughters to a ravenous crowd, after they flee to a cave he has sex with them both and thus their children preserved the line of abraham (on their side).
I stand by what i said; i don’t see why its conceptually better to admire churchill (an imperialist who used chemical warfare) over muhammad.
I think that generally speaking it has been considered taboo to have sex with pre-pubescent girls.
Well in my books Muhammed was a perfectly reasonable made by the standards of 7th century Arabia, but i do have a problem with nutters idealising his actions…
I think that generally speaking it has been considered taboo to have sex with pre-pubescent girls.
Today…yes.. but it was fairly common in pre-20th century India to marry off girls as young as 10. Gandhi married his wife when she was 9 and he was 13! I myself am a descendent of a woman who was married off at 11 in 18th century Rajputana….
I want to keep this conversation on track please, about the BNP, so have deleted some stuff.
Amir, so you admit that a lot of your concerns mirror those of the BNP. You say:
The BNP, on the other hand, detest immigrants and their offspring because of an aesthetic prejudice – that is to say, they’d prefer to live with Mr Jones and not Mr. Singh. It’s a type of subliminal snobbishness directed at a person’s skin colour and/or physical features. You cannot compare it to my own concerns – which are 100% cultural. I have no problem whatsoever with a Black or Brown Britain. It doesn’t worry me in the slightest.
The BNP’s concerns are also largely cultural. They are essentially a bunch of fascists. But behind fascism lies a feeling of cultural or racial superiority, feelings of victimisation and intense hatred of “the other”. Enough hatred to justify killing them.
Now I’m not saying you’re a fascist. But the point here is that your usage of language, your concerns and your points aren’t that dissimilar to the BNP. That in itself is not much different to the language of UKIP or even elements of the traditional Conservative Party.
But cultural exclusivism is not that different to racial exclusivism. Or at least the ideas that lie behind them. The BNP has even encouraged Sikhs and Hindus to join up (and some did) as some Jewish people have done, to focus on the Muslims. When enemies change, then friends change. At its heart though the BNP is about retaining its utopian version of society. Theirs is racially defined, yours is culturally defined. Everyone has to be the same otherwise they can quickly become demonished and pushed into jails or outside the country.
But you say you don’t mind a black or Asian Britain. As long as the culture mirrors yours. But many of those black and Asian Britons have developed sub-cultures within Britain due to a variety of reasons: taking from their heritage, their treatment as an ethnic minority, their experiences growing up in particular areas.
Urban London for example has a very different culture to rural Britain. That Urban culture includes black, Asian and white people. But it’s grown up and developed in this country. But is it still a threat? To you and the BNP it would be - to you because it’s an alien culture, and to them because it’s multi-racial.
My point is that neither of you want “the other” too close to you. Their other is defined by race, your’s by culture (and the two are very linked). Both of you feel victimised, feel under attack, want to re-assert your dominance, feel that it’s about the survival of yout tribe etc. Actually it’s not very different to Hizb ut-Tahrir except their mode of exclusivity and fear of the other is about religion. They want their own utopian world in the Middle East, free from other impure religions and feel victimised by the mixing of people, cultures and races.
Think about it.
I stand by what i said; i don’t see why its conceptually better to admire churchill (an imperialist who used chemical warfare) over muhammad.
I am sure Muhammed would have used Gas as a weapon of war if it was available. He did use trench warfare long before it was fashionable.
‘more interested in the intellectual argument’
Meaningful consent?
Abuse of power?
You’re talking crap. I neither know nor care who Mo actually screwed, or whether Lot existed, or what anybody’s scriptural references are. Or the age of consent in Tennessee or Tashkent.
Condemning adults who have sex with children is ‘cultural imperialism’? You just climbed up your own arse.
Nothing has ever been universaly taboo therefore nothing can be wrong? Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law? Juvenile sophistry.
I hate to go off topic, but according to the Burnley Citizen :
Supt Smith added: “We are making inquiries in relation to what we have found at his address and to establish what offences he may have committed.
“He’s not a terrorist and it’s not a bomb factory but we are interested in what we have seized from his house. It will take expert advice to establish exactly what he has got.
“He was arrested under the Explosives Act on suspicion of possessing chemical substances that aren’t in themselves an offence to possess but if combined may be capable of making an explosion.”
http://www.burnleycitizen.co.uk/news/newsheadlines/display.var.947927.0.exbnp_man_held_in_bomb_swoop.php
digging into the story once the men had been remanded in custody for a few days may jeapordise a fair trial and be in contempt of court.
But it is perfectly legitimate to ask why many of these restrictions do not seem to apply when British Muslim suspects are picked up or a police raid is conducted, as was the case in Forest Gate.
Back on thread as you requested. Sunny the media may have an unhealthy interest in islam and islamic terror but the 21/7 attempted suicide bombers case has disappeared from view. They have not gone to town on Omar Kayam fertiliser for his allotment plot. They appear to have learnt a few lessons from the ricin plot.
Toys back in pram please. What is meaningful consent to you? In what way are you attaching it to an individual? If you’re going based only only age based determination ill point out the thinking behind the fraser competance. It is obvious consent is desired, determining who can or cannot give that consent requires an intellectual consideration beyond hysteria.
Sweety having sex with children, putting your penis up a child’s arse (if you so desired it) is legal. The age of consent is 16, the age at which you’re no longer considered a minor is 18. I am unsure what you think having intercourse with someone between the ages of 16 and 18 is ‘about’ but you most certainly are not making love to an adult. The debate about the age of consent is entirely independant of the morality of adults having sex with children.
No. I think you need a lie down (though your reaction is very very amusing). Nothing has ever been universally taboo therefore nothing is neither right nor wrong, simply an adjustment of the will of a particular society.
Acceptance of reality.
But cultural exclusivism is not that different to racial exclusivism. Or at least the ideas that lie behind them….
But many of those black and Asian Britons have developed sub-cultures within Britain due to a variety of reasons: taking from their heritage, their treatment as an ethnic minority, their experiences growing up in particular areas.
Sunny,
Cultural exclusiveness is the very premise of nation states. Even withing ‘native’ culture we have these sub-cultures like the Cockney… It is not racism to expect a degree of cultural conformity from immigrants. Sub cultures should not be emphasized over national cultures. BNP for one doesnt give a fig about the culture. They’ll take Yvonne Ridley anyday rather than a non-white Christian.
Lastly i dont think calling Amir a racist will help. The feelings he expresses are natural…
And churchill his empire into a faith? Fair enough.
Cultural exclusiveness is the very premise of nation states. Even withing ‘native’ culture we have these sub-cultures like the Cockney…
err… i accidently deleted half my post #100.. darn..
Incidently, and perhaps this is making my defence in advance of any deletion. I don’t see any harm in dealing with this issue head on; calling muhammad and/or muslims paedophiles is a relatively common occurance. Might as well discuss it.
The moment the media begin to speak of an islamist connection with this, Sunny’s righteous indignation will evaporate.
Only in certain circumstances, geographic exclusiveness is far more common. Cultural exclusiveness only means something if you break the law by not participating; im not sure how the US is culturally exclusive.
Cultural exclusiveness is the very premise of nation states.
Rubbish. You clearly haven’t travelled India much. And given you’re behaving like a typical Mumbaiker who feels overwhelmed with non-Marathis I’m not surprised you’re agreeing with him. That doesn’t make your premise idiotic. America too is full of lots of different sub-culture. The Amish alone are a good example.
And I’m not calling Amir racist. I’m asking him how he thinks his ideas differ from the BNP. My feeling is that most racist people are insecure people who feel victmised by those they cannot relate to, and in turn develop a feeling of hatred towards them.
It may be a common feeling but that doesn’t mean I will pander to it.
I have been forwarded this response by the BBC.
————
Debby Moyse
Assistant Editor to the Head of TV News
Thank you for your email about the court appearance at Penine Magistrates of two men accused of possessing chemical explosives. It is indeed interesting. Unfortunately BBC TV news didn’t know about the police find.
I would like to assure you the BBC takes very seriously its responsibility to report all issues fairly, accurately and impartially. This is as true of issues involving potential terror plots by former BNP activists or radical Islamists. The BBC has a long history of exposing the BNP and any past wrongdoing.
I have investigated how the story was missed. It appears a reporter from BBC Radio Lancashire investigated initial reports but the police “played it down”. Clearly when an arrest has been made the police are the primary source of information and what they say about the significance of a case legitimately plays a part in determining its news-worthiness. Our regional televison centre in in Manchester found out about the strength story only after it was reported in the Colne Times. By this time it was several days old. On investigation they discovered that reporting restrictions were in place which severely curtailed what could be said by the media.
Two arrested men are due to appear at Blackburn Crown Court on October 23rd, BBC TV News will attend the hearing.
Thank you for alerting us to this story.
——————
thanks amir.
i grew up in zambia actually, ive lived in plenty of places - how about you - ever been out of manchester? 
people always go on about America - the land of the rich. so when i lived in LA - i lived in SouthCentral. and took the Bus! no doubt if you’ve never stepped outside of the UK you won’t understand the significance of that. i was at grad school at USC - close to where i lived, about a 5 min drive by car - and an hour on the bus. talk about the difference in worlds. and i come from bangladesh - and yeah im lucky enough to be one of the privileged lot. or embarassed -you can choose to see it that way. a lot of luxury can be had in bangladesh, and a lot of poverty in the USA. so i daresay if you were a bit more cosmopolitan, you’d know that.
i have enjoyed making all these assumptions about you. p.s. i’m not ’settled’ here
i find amir’s assumptions re: other people’s incomes hilarious. honey don’t worry - we’re all working class round ‘ere. so none of this im special because i work hard for a pittance business -ever tried the non-profit sector. Ha ha/ and with London rents and transport to pay! you don’t half have it easy up north.
Just one piece in the puzzle, albeit a big piece. Sky, ITN, The Guardian, Independent et al — they ALL missed it. (It’s too local for Reuters and Bloomberg) I know the media outlets often rely on each other as secondary sources, but this is ridiculous, unless it really isn’t much of a story. They can’t blame it on the failings of just one BBC Lancashire reporter. Maybe he/she was BNP. Maybe they were trying to compensate for that non-story about the woman with the veil in Liverpool or the endless and stale take on news about moslems angry about this or that or something else. I jest, in part. Net net it was poor.
Sunny,
(I) ‘Now I’m not saying you’re a fascist.’
Why thank you.
(II) ‘But the point here is that your usage of language, your concerns and your points aren’t that dissimilar to the BNP.’
For someone who admires Gary Younge – an ethnic nationalist, like Le Pen or Farrakhan – and for someone who proclaims their comradeship with Jamal’s rancid blog ‘Opinionated Voice’ and the pro-Hezbollah, pro- Sadr bilge of Lenin’s Tomb, you have a lot of chutzpah in trying to pin me down as an ethnic nationalist. To restate what I said in my previous entry: This is an exercise in logic, not guilt by association.
(III) ‘But cultural exclusivism is not that different to racial exclusivism. Or at least the ideas that lie behind them.’
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Racialists assume that race determines culture for ever, and that people are doomed by genetics to an unalterable fate. But if racial theories are wrong, then the only alternative explanation for the undeniable differences between peoples is that culture is the decisive element. In some ways, it is obvious it is like this, otherwise all our relationships would be the same, and we would all have the same amount of power.
(IV) ‘My point is that neither of you want “the other” too close to you. Their other is defined by race, your’s by culture (and the two are very linked).’
I’ve heard this bull (and its various manifestations) on so many occasions that it’s now beginning to make my brain bleed. ‘Othering’ and ‘Otherness’ is intrinsic to human nature. You can’t escape it. As social and evolutionary psychologists have discovered, human beings display an innate tendency to perceive in-groups and out-groups, however ephemeral. It is in our nature that we feel more comfortable around those whom we have shared histories and similar values. Without ‘The Other’, we would not know a criminal from a victim, or a tax-payer from a tax-dodger, or an English footballer from a Croatian footballer. And so on and so forth.
(V) ‘But you say you don’t mind a black or Asian Britain. As long as the culture mirrors yours.’
Well, yes, of course. To a point (though the word ‘mirror’ is highly misleading). Everyone’s different. But we do need to share some things in common. Without some measure of community, even if no civil war ensues, members of one tribe will be unwilling to make sacrifices on behalf of another. Just look at the multicultural mess in Malaysia, in which the overarching solidarity is too weak to sustain even a civil society. Is this what you want as our future? I hope not.
(VI) ‘That Urban culture includes black, Asian and white people. But it’s grown up and developed in this country. But is it still a threat?’
That depends. If such-and-such a sub-culture is erected on guns, gangster rap, drugs, violence and intimidation, gangbanging and pimping then the answer is Yes. It is a threat. If it is based on religious fundamentalism and the holy struggle against the unholy infidel, then the answer is Yes again. If it is based on a foreign language or rules and norms that have no place in British society (i.e. forced marriage, honour killing, self-segregation, wife beating, effigy burning, anti-blasphemy, etc.) then the answer is Yes. As a primer, I recommend this book by Susan Moller Okin.
(VII) ‘Both of you feel victimised, feel under attack, want to re-assert your dominance, feel that it’s about the survival of your tribe etc.’
Victimised? Under attack? Urghhh… no. I’d appreciate it if you’d stop trying to ventriloquize my emotions. Patriotism, to be distinguished from aggressive nationalism, is an unselfish emotion – it has nothing to do with jingoism.
(VIII) ‘Actually it’s not very different to Hizb ut-Tahrir except their mode of exclusivity and fear of the other is about religion.’
OKAY, I’m both a BNP sympathiser and a Christianized version of Hizb ut-Tahrir. MMMM [Ace Ventura voice] Oh-righty-then! You probably like to think of yourself as a ‘progressive reformer’ but in actual fact you are among the most intolerant of authoritarians, contemptuous of public opinion and petulantly dismissive of those who object to immigration.
To be honest, I’m getting sick and tired of your anti-intellectual rants and Rortyian language games. At first, I thought it was cute – but now it’s really, really pissing me off. Maybe I should take Katy’s advice and stop contributing to this blog so as to concentrate on my own journalistic aspirations? I dunno.
Another thing: I sincerely hope that you are not representative of the majority of British Asians – I’d rather live in a country inhabited by millions and millions of Jai’s and Jagdeeps and Katy’s, as opposed to those arrogant multiculturalists from AIM.
I recommend the following article: Exclusion Zones by George Alagiah
Read it. Think about it.
Amir
What the hell is this Churchill thing? Who is claiming him as the perfect man throughout the ages?
You know quite well that this is not about some old lech pulling a seventeen year old and bragging it’s legal. Your contention is no legal age
(I’m not even going to look up the Fraser Competance if you can’t be arsed to define it) and
‘What is meaningful consent to you? In what way are you attaching it to an individual?’
Meaningful consent is consent to an act without coercion, fear or force and with a reasonable understanding of the nature of the act and its consequences. To whom would you attach that if not an individual?
Abuse of power is not a toy I’m throwing from a pram. It’s wrong.The fact that there exist and have existed societies where that has been ‘not wrong’ is not evidence that abuse of power is ‘not wrong’. It’s evidence that there are some fucked up societies around.
‘Rubbish. You clearly haven’t travelled India much.’
India isn’t really a nation-state.
A nation-state is a specific form of state, which exists to provide a sovereign territory for a particular nation, and which derives its legitimacy from that function. The state is a political and geopolitical entity; the nation is a cultural and/or ethnic entity. The term “nation-state” implies that they geographically coincide, and this distinguishes the nation-state from the other types of state, which historically preceded it. If successfully implemented, this implies that the citizens share a common language, culture, and values
Depending on who you ask, India is either a territorial state (i.e. an empire, defined by its current borders) or a state-nation (a nation established by conscious effort and propaganda by a state apparatus).
Of course, neither is Britain, which is something between a welfare-state and a market-state.
See Bobbit, Shield of Achilles. One of those books that really explains a lot of things you only realise you always knew when you see them written down.
Sonia,
‘honey don’t worry - we’re all working class round ‘ere.’
I like the way you use ‘ere’ instead of ‘here’!
Which, as far as I’m concerned, is proof enough of your working-class credentials. 
I’ll be moving down to London in a short while anyway…
Southern pansies.
Heh heh!
Oh that wasn’t for you, it was for jane; i assumed as a british nationalist churchill would be well regarded (top britain etc)
Name calling aside it very much is about that.
In essence no - all cases on their own consideration. Im not advocating the abolition of rape laws, far far from it; rather abolishing the ridiculous concept that all people of a certain age are the same and they are all equally incapable of giving consent (because its beyond their comprehension)
I didn’t define it; but basically it deals with this type of situation in medical situations. Regardless of the wishes of a parent a child can be deemed ‘fraser competent’ and therefore be able to fully comprehend and give consent to a treatment. A doctor decides if a child is mature and intelligent enough to have understood the entire situation (bad and good) and as such have the ability to consent to something; even if their parents disagree with the treatment, or even without informing their parents of the treatment. Before it came about a child was deemed incapable of consent and all decisions were taken by the parent. Substitute sex with treatment and parent with state and you’ll near enough get my views.
Well quite; do you think the state is able to uniformally determine that across the entire nation for an arbitary demographic of people?
Ah but my point is the state is abusing its power.
Incidently the reason i think this way isn’t sudden need to subvert normality and bring about the collapse of british society (although the omg shock does amuse me). I take seriously the rights of all individuals; children included. From all i’ve heard and know the majority of sexual relationships that occur with regards to under 16s is with other under 16s. The hysteria generated by the tabloids (and certain mps) has led to a situation where the police and cps must act regardless of circumstance. I don’t want my future 13 year old son (or even younger) to be prosecuted and classed as a sex offender just because he had sex with a 12year old. I may not approve of them having sex, i may actively discourage it. But i accept it could occur. A law that had a ’suitable age range’ would be better than what we’ve got, but i can’t ignore the fact a suitable age range is nothing more than more statist doctorine.
btw i also think things like driving exams should be uniformally objective. You set whatever standard you want and you accept any individual if they meet that standard. So id accept 8 year olds in cars if they passed said test.
I didn’t see the deleted comments so parts of this thread are a mystery to me. I stick to my original point the BNP have links to Combat 18 and Redwatch both organisations with either a history of direct violence or incitement to violence.
On a slightly different note. Could Amir (if he wants) be allowed to do a post on his views on multiculturalism? I think it would get a good debate going (if it’s not all about Islam) and whilst he says much that I disagree with I think he is worth listening to.
You may all throw rocks at my head now.
Amir.
you have a lot of chutzpah in trying to pin me down as an ethnic nationalist
Hold on a second. You’re the one arguing that people stick to their own and there are justified in fearing change and fearing “the other” and I’m an ethnic nationalist? Pull the other one.
It is in our nature that we feel more comfortable around those whom we have shared histories and similar values.
There is a difference between feeling comfortable and demonising other people and hating them. And it is different to trying to force them to follow your way of life.
But we do need to share some things in common.
Like what?
Victimised? Under attack? Urghhh… no. I’d appreciate it if you’d stop trying to ventriloquize my emotions.
Rubbish, you do feel under attack from the change that is taking place. your points in the conspiracy thread clearly showed that.
OKAY, I’m both a BNP sympathiser and a Christianized version of Hizb ut-Tahrir.
But you’re evading my question aren’t you? I didn’t say you were a BNP sympathiser or a Christian version of HuT. I said that all three of you have different markers of exclusivity and ideals you’d like to preserve and perpetuate - race (BNP), culture (you), religion (HuT). Is that right or wrong? Just answer the question.
Maybe I should take Katy’s advice and stop contributing to this blog so as to concentrate on my own journalistic aspirations? I dunno.
Whatever, I’m not fussed. Just stick to answering the questions.
but in actual fact you are among the most intolerant of authoritarians, contemptuous of public opinion and petulantly dismissive of those who object to immigration.
Agreed to all three. Public opinion is irrelevant because sometimes your views may coincide with public opinion (I love animals like most of the nation) or not (I’m vegetarian unlike most of this nation). I’m not dismissive of people who object to immigration - I just know they haven’t thought their arguments through properly. I’m fairly ambivalent about immigration - far more pro-asylum seekers. I’m just not willing to demonise immigrants. And yes I’m contemptuous of authoritarianism.
Clairwil, I agree, this thread is mangled and disjointed because of comments that have been lanced.
And I agree, Amir should write a piece on multiculturalism so we can all, well, take it or leave it, but more importantly, get a better idea of how he would dispence with the bodies of Muslim homos if he were to impliment his worldview.
Soru - Have you read the Argumentative Indian? I haven’t gone through it fully but I think India is a rare kind of state. A bit like China only.
It is indeed a political entity, but it has also been “united” in the past. Under Chandra Gupta Maurya and his son Ashoka Maurya around 300BC, and later much of it under Akbar and then the British. There has also been a lot of cultural exchange across the country over centuries even though it has largely been divided into kingdoms over most of its history.
But the point is that Indians, probably because of the immense diversity of what you could refer to as Hinduism, has never been obssessed with cultural homogeneity. Indians like preserving their culture but they would never think about imposing it on others or demanding people live alike. That would be completely alien.
This has allowed minor parallel communities to exist and flourish for centuries, including vibrant Zoroastrian, Christian, Jewish, Iranian etc without any tension. People live side by side and do not worry about how the next person is living. You could say Hinduism is the cultural glue across the country but then Hinduism is also too diverse to enforce any homogeneity.
But we do need to share some things in common.
Like what?
The ability to live together in a city without serious tribal conflict.
A thing commonly known as ‘civilisation’.
well done pickled politics, you really are on the ball. wow that nasty bnp at it again.
gosh, its a good job we have sites like yours to keep us safe from influence.
jolly, i will sleep safer tonight with investigators like you around.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz oops dropped off allready.
The ability to live together in a city without serious tribal conflict.
There seems to be the assumption that difference alone is a reason enough to cause conflict. That is absurd. Not only that, how far do you want to take tribalism? Between different football clubs? People will use eny excuse to fight. The point here to figure out why they’re fighting and deal with that rather than saying difference alone will cause fighting. A few centuries ago the presence of Catholics in this counrtry was dangerous; now it’s not. What has changed? Their religion is still the same? Attitudes have changed.
So I’d challenge attitudes that say difference is the cause of conflict. It is far more true that conflict comes from specific social conditions (economic deprivation, unequal resources etc) and manipulation by leaders.
In India most of the communal violence has been manipulated, provoked and orchestrated by specific political leaders, parties or individuals. It is not an automatic response.
Wow— where does everyone get the time to write so many posts? It’s so exhausting to write comments on PP- long, passionate analyses on various issues
After skimming some comments, I noticed there’s a debate on “cultural exclusivity” and immigration. Couple of thoughts:
1. this works assuming that the culture in question is in fact undiluted, unadulterated and “pure.” But I’m willing to bet my savings account that this is never the case. Even things that are quintessentially “British,” “Indian,” “Italian,” and “American” are actually an accumulation of practices that have been lifted and coopted from other peoples and have seeped into mainstream culture. Snarky comment: tea drinking in Britain; but hello, where the heck did you guys get tea from?! And what of the English language, and words that are of subcontinental origin? Christianity came from where, London? Or pasta in Italy; that pasta actually came from either China or the Bedouins (ongoing question in Italy right now). And then “Indian”….long list, won’t get into it.
2. this also works under the assumption that immigrants are coming en-masse out of their own free-will that is not contigent to any realities. But there is a reason why a nation’s immigrants largely come from specific countries. The UK has immigrants from Asia, Africa; all ex colonial possessions. Or, another reason are historical ties, such as a large number of Mexicans in California and Texas. There are various reasons why immigrants come, and they are often dependent on tied dynamics– most often than not, migration occurs due to some channel that has opened up, such as multinational corporations, and/or eocnomic, political, historical ties.
I am reminded of what Salman Rushdie said of a protest he attended. He saw a placard that read: “We are here because you were there.”
Soru:
I really liked your comment #113:
“Depending on who you ask, India is either a territorial state (i.e. an empire, defined by its current borders) or a state-nation (a nation established by conscious effort and propaganda by a state apparatus).”
Or, it is a nation that cannot be contained by a state. And right now we see the phenomenon of certain segments of the nation advocating for a particular type of nation via the state apparatus, ie using the state to construct a nation.
Or maybe nations (plural) exist within the borders of the state.
Sunny:
“But the point is that Indians, probably because of the immense diversity of what you could