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  • Media stupidity


    by Sunny
    7th October, 2006 at 8:38 pm    

    I share Asim Siddiqui’s pessimism - it has been a depressing week. We have had so many non-stories: the policeman who wished to be excused from guarding the Israel embassy because of potential retaliation if someone pictured him doing so; the so called “race riots” when it was a case of gang violence and arson on a Muslim-owned dairy; Jack Straw’s comments (right debate, wrong time) etc. But not a peep from Associated Newspapers if BNP members are found with huge amounts of chemical material.

    This tendency to blow any story out of all proportion when a Muslim is involved is nothing less than demonisation. That is how I see it. I would rather they write about the real religious extremists. All this week almost everyone (incl non-Muslims) I’ve had a political conversation with concurred with me. It makes our job, as citizens who want to deal with religious extremists, all the more harder because ordinary people are getting castigated.

    Anyway, I’ve had enough of it. I’m henceforth planning to personally avoid following the media agenda and stick to other debates for the time being. It’s all got too silly for me.


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    1. Talking About Going Over The Top « Jihad And The City

      [...] Sunny makes a good point on this weeks attack of Muslims I believe the way this has been handled by the Media will make it more difficult for those who are trying their best inside the community to stop the radicalisation of the young Muslim youth, MCB, MAB, MPACUK, BMI and local groups here in Leeds. [...]


    2. Clive Davis

      WINDSOR JIHADIS?…

      Yet more doubts about those news reports of a simmering clash of civilisations in Windsor, not far from where I live. Last Saturday the Sun said a house that four Household Cavalry officers planned to rent in the nearby village…


    3. Wordblog » Blog Archive » Asian editor castigates MSM over ‘demonisation of Muslims’

      [...] Sunny Hundal, editor of Asians in Media, has decided not to comment on stories such as those about women wearing the veil. He explained his decision in the Pickled Politics blog, saying: This tendency to blow any story out of all proportion when a Muslim is involved is nothing less than demonisation. That is how I see it. I would rather they write about the real religious extremists. All this week almost everyone (incl non-Muslims) I’ve had a political conversation with concurred with me. It makes our job, as citizens who want to deal with religious extremists, all the more harder because ordinary people are getting castigated. [...]




    1. raz — on 7th October, 2006 at 8:59 pm  

      I’m glad you have made this post Sunny. We on Pickled Politics have been some of the biggest critics of Islamic (and other religous) extremists, but even we have had enough of this absurd one-track agenda.

    2. ZinZin — on 7th October, 2006 at 9:23 pm  

      Fair point Islam, terrorism and other related issues do dominate the news agenda. The reason for this is that the media loves the fundis especially the semi-criminal fringes such as Anjem Choudary (how he hasn’t been arrested for incitement to violence is beyond me) and Muslim groups such as the MCB do have a degree of political influence that other religious bodies do not have.

      I will make one suggestion and that is the rise of political Islam is considered the most pertinent example of the failures of multiculturalism.

      The plane hijacking that took place this week when first reported was supposed to be done by an Islamist radical as there was little info to go on. The truth was that the hijacker wanted political asylum. If in doubt go for Islam angle seems to be the mantra.

      Another thing a retired dentist as a terrorist? How many copies is that going to shift? BNP terrorist are a rare occurance unlike homegrown muslim terrorists.

    3. Al-Hack — on 7th October, 2006 at 9:42 pm  

      I can just imagine the news agenda meeting at Evening Standard.

      Look, we’ve used Anjem Choudhary and our friend Trevor a lot recently. Can we find other ways of picking on ordinary Muslims so it helps boost the extremists?

      Smart woman, Veronica Wadley.

    4. Katy Newton — on 7th October, 2006 at 10:18 pm  

      I salute your decision, Sunny. Towards the end of the last week, I actually felt that if anyone mentioned Islam, Islamophobia or Islamic extremism to me one more time I would just open my mouth and scream repeatedly until they stopped or went away.

    5. razib — on 7th October, 2006 at 10:32 pm  

      the media doesn’t shut up about islam because of the context of the radicalism. islamic extremism is a seriously social problem throughout europe, has relevance to foreign policy, and is a worldwide phenomenon. the BNP angle is more narrow-focused so you can’t get as much juice out of such stories. a contrast would be reports of ‘church burnings’ targeting blacks here in the states, they got a lot of attention for a while because there was a history of the KKK and other groups doing such things, though later it was found that most of these were the result of convential arson and the statistical trend was blown out of proportion.

    6. Rakhee — on 8th October, 2006 at 12:20 am  

      => stick to other debates for the time being

      yay! finally. am sick of it too.

      does that mean we can make suggestions as to what we can debate? huh? Sunny? huh? does it?

      *eyes light up with mischief*

    7. Nyrone — on 8th October, 2006 at 12:21 am  

      That really was a wonderful article by Siddiqui.
      It’s really just commonsense, but it’s nice to see it re-iterated during a time when their appears to be an obsessive centralisation of this issue by the mass media. I wrote quite a long reply to it on CIF, but it’s pretty clear now that the veil issue has served as a catalyst for yet another re-examination of ‘the multicultural Britain project’ that is currently doing the rounds. Isn’t it clear that the ‘visible seperation’ the war-mongering white-haired scarecrow man talks about utterly extends to the ‘mental ghettos’ that communities are locked into due to poverty, rascism, asylum rules, access to opportunities et cetra?

      I swear these non-issues are blown out of all proportion because it fits the news agenda…they have a choice to put out different new stories, but often hold back to ‘eduacte’ the public on the ‘hot’ intergration topic of the day, by framing it however the politicians spin it. However… once the commentators get their hands on the issue and play football with it, we are left with a strange grey area in which we simply wait for the next ‘issue’ to pop up, because we are ‘bored’ with the arguments being amplified.

      I dunno, dont we all have to take some blame for not discussing constructive practical solutions? If segregration between communities is the topic of the moment, shouldn’t people do more than stand back and say “oh dear”?

      Like organize a social network for different cultures, that could expand and bring people together to explore each other’s cultures? I just think in this busy world, there is often such little time to meet other people, we are all busy and simply grow accustomed to the people we can relate to and are immediately familiar with.

      Labour must be laughing their heads off.
      They must now be certain, that when they are being pressed about their illegal adventures and continual erosion of civil liberties, they can simply get a minister to comment on Islam and re-divert all the attention to one small community.
      One friend said to me yesterday she feels it’s now become normal…she said “it’s officially open season on Muslims, we are going to be made scapegoats for this crumbling country”

    8. Rakhee — on 8th October, 2006 at 12:31 am  

      Hey Nyrone, I think you’re on to something there. It would be interesting to see whether there’s a pattern as to when there’s been a seperate political crisis brewing and Muslims have been used as a diversion topic in the news, like a freakogenda.

    9. sonia — on 8th October, 2006 at 12:47 am  

      yeah i know what you mean sunny about media agendas in general - it can be pretty exhausting! the muslim/islam thing is the one of the latest fads, but there’s always something.

    10. Nyrone — on 8th October, 2006 at 1:24 am  

      Nobody wants to admit, but it’s probably a rather normal crisis-aversion tactic employed by goverments from the last 100 years Rakhee.

      I remember reading something in Robin Cook’s diaries that implied it was pretty standard fare..

    11. holly finch — on 8th October, 2006 at 2:26 am  

      glad i succeeded in amusing you!

    12. Douglas Clark — on 8th October, 2006 at 6:54 am  

      Sunny,

      In a week of non stories, we seem to have a genuine story, in particular the nut job with the fertiliser, oh, and the rpg’s and the radiation suit. This person seems dangerous to me.

      The fact that mainstream media seemed reluctant to broadcast this criminality, says more for their weakness, and probably their agenda, than you or I would want to know. I am furious that the BNP can be let off the journalistic hook, when their evil intent is evident. It is largely time that these evil arseholes were challenged.

    13. Kesara / StrangelyPsychedelic — on 8th October, 2006 at 8:48 am  

      The ‘No-Borders’ ‘Give Asylum Seekers Equal Rights’ brigade marched through south london yesterday…Im seeing eff all in the media but hey wassnew homiez.

    14. Owen Blacker — on 8th October, 2006 at 11:40 am  

      Well put, Sunny.

      I was quite literally shouting at the television yesterday, watching News 24 (which frustrated me more — I expect that kind of shit from Murdoch’s Sky). And, to top off the non-stories they were reporting, the only Muslims they could seem to find came across as extremists. Interviewing a bloke-on-the-street who says little more than “we don’t want to integrate because our way of life is superior” is hardly helping Middle England’s fears.

      Where were all the moderate Muslims just trying to get on with their lives? Surely *the BBC* aren’t trying to polarise this excuse for a media debate even further?!

    15. Yakoub/Julaybib — on 8th October, 2006 at 11:52 am  

      I will be following the media agenda, personally. I want to look it right in the eye and laugh at it. It is utterly daft. But some folks out there are saying a few sensible things. See Kirsty Milne writing in The Scotsman:

      http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=1488372006

      Wasalaam

      TMA

    16. Jagdeep — on 8th October, 2006 at 3:50 pm  

      Sunny just devote a few days of posting to other things. Post about books or something like that for a week. Set your own agenda. No mentioning religion/extremism for seven days, barring a nuclear dirty bomb going off in Paris or something like that.

    17. Sahil — on 8th October, 2006 at 4:05 pm  

      Agree with the sentiments of many here, am quite jaded about this week, i’ve been called: anti-freedom of expression and anti-choice, a capitalist scum, and a commie, Islamist, anti-Islam. The level of debate has been pretty weak, wonder if that’s symptomatic of the shitty media stories covered this week, plus no analysis, rather trenchant viewpoints.

    18. Jai — on 8th October, 2006 at 4:23 pm  

      Everyone,

      Re: post #5

      I’d like to introduce my friend Razib to the PP forum. He’s an ex-Muslim Bangladeshi dude from the US who I know from Sepia Mutiny.

      Very good guy; extremely smart, source of a wealth of information on a huge range of topics, and very fair-minded.

      Please be nice to him !

    19. ZinZin — on 8th October, 2006 at 4:41 pm  

      Sahil,
      ’ve been called: anti-freedom of expression and anti-choice, a capitalist scum, and a commie, Islamist, anti-Islam.

      Anal Abcess beat that.

    20. Sahil — on 8th October, 2006 at 4:48 pm  

      And the penny drops. Wow Zin Zin you’re a real bright spark. Any thing further to add? Fucking trash.

    21. ZinZin — on 8th October, 2006 at 4:51 pm  

      Sahil
      I do not support what you say, But i will defend to the death your right to gratutiously insult me.

    22. Jagdeep — on 8th October, 2006 at 4:53 pm  

      Naaah Sahil…..you misunderstand. I called ZinZin an anal abcess on another thread after he said Muslim women wear the veil because they’re ugly, which was a joke apparently. So he’s saying that being called an anal abcess beats all the insults thrown at you all week, and I have to agree, because I am qite proud of my alliterative insult.

      Now, I want to apologise to ZinZin for calling him that and begetting bad blood on this brilliant blog. Peace and love to everyone, even anal abcesses and everyone else, lets cease the violence, and be civil.

      ZinZin, my sincere apologies, and I’m sorry for sullying the atmosphere temporarily Sunny with my intemperate words.

    23. Bert Preast — on 8th October, 2006 at 4:55 pm  

      A hearty welcome to Jai’s mate Razib.

      Try to ignore Sahil and ZinZin savaging each other on the floor over there. :D

    24. Sahil — on 8th October, 2006 at 4:56 pm  

      Fine, Jagdeep, there’s been so much name-calling this week, it’s hard to know what’s going on. Hope you’re having a fab weekend, I plan to turn my brain into gruel by playing XBox :)

    25. ZinZin — on 8th October, 2006 at 5:01 pm  

      Ah don’t sweat it. Jagdeep if i am not insulted or abused on a blog i do start to worry.

      I do accept the apology which has been graciously offered. Jagdeep you are a gentleman.

    26. Sunny — on 8th October, 2006 at 5:19 pm  

      Ahhh.. it’s love and hugs and hugs all around. I like that. Apart for poor Katy, who seems to have found that Kismet has typicall done a runner after being married. He gives Asian guys a bad name. Let’s lynch him for controversy’s sake.

    27. Sahil — on 8th October, 2006 at 5:36 pm  

      Damn don’t mean to detrail the thread, but Anna Politkovskaya has been found dead near her apartment in Moscow. Her reporting on Chechnya was excellent:

      http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1890481,00.html

      This is a really bad day for Russian media. Putin’s been strangling most of the print (forget TV) and now one of his biggest critics is gone.

    28. sonia — on 8th October, 2006 at 6:11 pm  

      i saw that lot going past my window! lovely banners as well and great drums they had…

    29. Don — on 8th October, 2006 at 6:15 pm  

      Razib,

      Any mate of Jai’s …

      And on the topic of peace love and hugs;

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0TBDti9BDU&eurl=

    30. sonia — on 8th October, 2006 at 6:26 pm  

      ah yes Razib the Atheist..i recognize the nickname

      hiya

    31. Refresh — on 8th October, 2006 at 6:29 pm  

      Jai, its peculiar to have to introduce anyone onto a blog. But no doubt welcome.

      Any reason why you introduce him in the manner you do?

      Nothing loaded in the question, it may well be that you have a poor view of some of the commenters who may feel the need to bite before the bark.

    32. razib — on 8th October, 2006 at 7:20 pm  

      thanks for the intro jai!

      He’s an ex-Muslim Bangladeshi dude from the US who I know from Sepia Mutiny.

      just to be clear here, i have never really believed in god and have been an self-conscious atheist since i was 8 or so. my parents raised me as if i was a muslim, and so i know the general brown muslim culture…but saying ‘ex-muslim’ might give the wrong impression of how religious i ever was (in other words, i never was religious :) i use the handle ‘razib_the_atheist’ on SM precisely because people repeatedly assumed i was muslim simply by my handle, and it got tiresome reminding people that i don’t identify as muslim in any way. there is also a tendency on SM to ‘ethnicize’ islam (i.e., you are what you are born, as is normative among many hindus and jews), and i don’t accept that for myself (seeing as how i don’t, and haven’t, ever socialized with muslims outside of my family and don’t partake of the subculture).

      anyway, i think jai might have introduced me because he has encouraged me to check out this blog (i have dropped in now and then). my main exposure to brown culture is via weblogs as i live in a rural and 95% white area in the states, so i am curious as to the differences between SM & PP (already noted some). ikram saed, a canadian brown guy, has labelled me a combination of an ‘alien anthropologist’ who is also a ‘member of the family.’ and i think that’s about right. normally i blog about science (genetics), but i have a big interest in history and religion as well as ethnology too.

      best
      razib (“the atheist”)

    33. Jagdeep — on 8th October, 2006 at 7:22 pm  

      Hi Razib, you sound like you have an interesting background!

    34. razib — on 8th October, 2006 at 7:24 pm  

      p.s. i have relatives who live in the UK. my uncle is a petrol engineer who spends a lot of time in the north sea, so i’m interesting in getting some insights into the lives my cousins lead (i can tell you immediately that the fact that they are not sylheti [we are from comilla] has been an issue in the past).

    35. Vikrant — on 8th October, 2006 at 7:38 pm  

      Razib,

      Main difference between SM & PP is that we dont make such a big fuss about being brown and race ‘n stuff… like SM guys tend to do.

    36. razib — on 8th October, 2006 at 7:43 pm  

      Main difference between SM & PP is that we dont make such a big fuss about being brown and race ‘n stuff… like SM guys tend to do.

      yes, that’s the impression i get. though, to be fair, one might say that part of that fixation is that brownz in the USofA don’t have the social tensions with the mainstream that say, pakistani brownz, do on your side of the pond, so they have to find something to kvetch about. also, in terms of being culturally brown, the USA brown community is really diverse, so i think that there is less of a culture to easily slot into for many (unless you part of a numerous community, like gujarati patels), so they have to create a synthetic identity and they are working them out on blog. my impression is that in the UK there are more clearly defined and natural ‘blocks.’ e.g., here in the states 88% of brownz are ‘indian,’ with the other 12% being bangladeshi, pakistani, sri lankan, etc. of that 88% you have many different groups with different experiences.

    37. razib — on 8th October, 2006 at 7:46 pm  

      also, here in the states, the vast majority of us were raised in the suburbs amongst whites. we were one of a few brown people (if any) in our high schools (secondary schools, don’t know what you guys call them :) . there are now large concentrates of brown people in places like new jersey or queens, but when most of us (around 30 in terms of age) were growing up we had to develop on our own. consider that US census data shows that american brown kids who are born in the states, 1.5 (came when very young) have rates of outmarriage on the order of 30-50% (depending on what numbers you believe). this rate might drop as the younger, more numerous, kids grow up and are more culturally brown, but, it is very different than in the UK where the numbers i’ve seen are less than 10% outmarriage (despite your community being less F.O.B. than ours), with as low as 1-2% for bangladeshis.

    38. Jagdeep — on 8th October, 2006 at 7:54 pm  

      Interesting stuff Razib.

    39. Vikrant — on 8th October, 2006 at 8:01 pm  

      @razib: me thinks Asians are more integrated and their contributions are more visible in UK rather than US. Your average native Briton knows a lot more about Indian culture than your average American.

    40. razib — on 8th October, 2006 at 8:03 pm  

      me thinks Asians are more integrated and their contributions are more visible in UK rather than US.

      of course.

      1) south asians are around 1% of america’s population
      2) they are 4% of britain’s population
      3) my impression also is that they are somewhat more scattered in the USA than UK (e.g., we have no southall)

      but, ‘integration’ is a word sensitive to metics. for example, if you counted “white friends per capita” which group would you think comes out on top?

    41. raz — on 8th October, 2006 at 9:02 pm  

      The despicable Septic Mutations is an affront and insult to the dignity of all Asians worldwide. Hopefully razib will find a better future on PP.

    42. razib — on 8th October, 2006 at 9:03 pm  

      hey now, some of the founders are friends of mine in real life! :-)

    43. Vikrant — on 8th October, 2006 at 9:07 pm  

      raz is just angry coz they got no pakistanis at SM!

    44. raz — on 8th October, 2006 at 9:08 pm  

      SEPTIC MUTATIONS WILL BE DESTROYED!

      MARK MY WORDS!

    45. El Cid — on 8th October, 2006 at 9:23 pm  

      May I offer up another non-story: ITN blowing up an isolated incident in Liverpool where a moslem women had a veil snatched off her face in order to stretch out the Jack Straw rumpus. Agreed?
      On integration, I also have a question: why is North London — which statistically has the greatest amount of ethnic diversity — seemingly much better integrated socially than East London? I say only seemingly, because it’s just the vibe I get travelling around Bethnal Green, Mile End, and Stepney.

    46. El Cid — on 8th October, 2006 at 9:29 pm  

      As for the BNP/chemicals story — well you’ve got to ask, why hasn’t it been covered by the BBC, Reuters, et al either? Correct me if I’m wrong — and |I’[m sure you will — but I haven’t seen any refs to it anywhere national, so don’t blame it on Associated Newspapers, coz that’s just lazy rhetoric.
      Shouldn’t we know all the facts before passing comment? It’s a little bit fishy don’t you think?

    47. Refresh — on 8th October, 2006 at 9:34 pm  

      El Cid,

      “Agreed?”

      Can’t agree. Its assault, aggravated by racist abuse.

      As a story it is linked in that it is one of the first of the consequences easily anticipated.

      Mr Straw should consider what he may have unleashed.
      For someone seeking less divisions in society he has proven to be incredibly incompetent.

      Bear in mind there are probably no more than 2,000 (0.5% I read) muslim women opting for the veil. Was it really a problem. Or is something else going on?

      But I guess this really should be on that other thread.

    48. El Cid — on 8th October, 2006 at 9:41 pm  

      It was a story meriting a paragraph in a local rag.

    49. Douglas Clark — on 8th October, 2006 at 10:12 pm  

      Sunny,

      What I admire about you is the fact that you are off agenda. It is your commentary from the probably humungous Asian community that does not buy into the religiosity that seems to be the norm. I do not buy that bullshit. It is apparent that Asian women in particular, don’t either. It is your freedom of thought that is admirable. Quite unique really. If you ever thought of standing for Parliament, you’d get my vote. You are, quite frankly, the bees knees.

      You have a big voice. Keep it coming!

    50. Jagdeep — on 8th October, 2006 at 11:23 pm  

      It is your commentary from the probably humungous Asian community that does not buy into the religiosity that seems to be the norm.

      Eh?

      humungous Asian community?

      I do not buy that bullshit. It is apparent that Asian women in particular, don’t either.

      Actually, Asian women from various religions are quite attached to their religious identity. The majority of them wouldnt describe it as bullshit.

    51. bikhair aka taqiyyah — on 9th October, 2006 at 1:24 am  

      Douglas Clark,

      Oh Puhlease. All this talk about Sunny. When you hear his head go pop you’ll be responsible for the mess.

      Ekk!!

    52. Sunny — on 9th October, 2006 at 1:33 am  

      Heh, thanks for that Bikhair.

      Thanks Douglas, though you may be responsible for boosting my ego, and as others have mentioned this may not be a good thing. Buddha himself actually warns against this.

      Jagdeep - I think DC means humungously diverse Asian community. As for religiousity - I think he may mean in the way the debate on religion is conducted (men beating their chest and all that). And I agree on that too.

      Anyway, I hope readers don’t mind that I have committed to an article for comment is free on the subject of the last week, so that’ll probably be up tomorrow. But it won’t be here… we will stick to other and more important issues.

    53. Jai — on 9th October, 2006 at 11:02 am  

      Refresh,

      =>”Any reason why you introduce him in the manner you do?”

      Razib explained it himself — I was the person who pointed him towards PP. I believe there’s even a Donny Brasco-type Mafia term for it (which I can’t remember); something about how the guy vouching for the new dude is responsible for the latter’s good conduct. Of course, this means that if my friend turns out to be a disruptive influence here, you all have to execute both of us…..

      Okay, I’m just kidding. My rationale was basically like bringing a friend along to a bar, pub or Starbucks where you already know a bunch of the “regulars”, and introducing him to everyone there. That’s all.

      *********************

      El Cid,

      North London: Very large Gujarati community.
      Bethnal Green, Mile End, and Stepney: Predominantly Bangladeshi.

      So the different backgrounds of the two Asian populations may have something to do with it.

    54. Refresh — on 9th October, 2006 at 11:23 am  

      Jai, fair enough. Just unusual.

      Disruptive? I like disruptive. That’s why I like Amir - even though he’s yet to convince me that he has a settled view on life.

    55. Refresh — on 9th October, 2006 at 11:27 am  

      Perhaps I should have said: Becuase he doesn’t have a settled view.

    56. Chairwoman — on 9th October, 2006 at 11:30 am  

      Refresh - Please don’t get a settled view on life :-)

    57. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 12:30 pm  

      Headline on evening standard seller’s stall today:

      Muslim cabbie refuses guide dog

      For fuck’s sake. Cabbie doesn’t let on a blind man because he had a guide dog = he’s a bit of a twat

      What the buggering bollocks has it got to do with the fact that he’s a muslim? What next?

      Muslim plumber fails to sort out Christian man’s boiler?

      Islamist takeaway gives Jewish man food poisoning?

      Al-Qaeda shopkeeper shortchanges a Mormon over a tin of beans?

    58. Chairwoman — on 9th October, 2006 at 12:35 pm  

      Kismet (or should I say son-in-law) - It’s only relevent because that’s the reason the cabbie gave for refusing the fare. The dog was unclean. Unfortunately for him, the blind person was a legal officer at the RNIB, and knew that a black-cab driver has to carry a guide dog.

    59. Refresh — on 9th October, 2006 at 12:36 pm  

      Chairwoman - never except on some key fundamentals.

      [Returns smile]

      Amir’s working on his fundamentals.

    60. Refresh — on 9th October, 2006 at 12:41 pm  

      Chairwoman,

      I guess the point is that its not for the first time. Its supposed to have happened before, but for the muslims, the microscopes are out. Its the knives I worry about.

      For muslims there is the question of knowledge about Islam. Its the dog’s saliva that is the issue - but the cabbies are not to know that it seems.

      There is most likely a medical health issue behind the stricture.

      My thoughts on the subject

    61. Refresh — on 9th October, 2006 at 12:43 pm  

      oops…

      My thoughts on the subject are that there is most likely a logical medical/health reasoning behind the stricture.

    62. Refresh — on 9th October, 2006 at 12:44 pm  

      Its been a bad morning ….

    63. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 12:48 pm  

      So let me get this straight. Seeing as I happen to find dogs a breed of filthy undignified sappy little shits and I happen to go on an insane rampage gunning down every last one of them in battersea dogs home, the headline the next day wouldn’t read:

      ‘Psychotic dog hater slaughters innocent puppies’

      but

      ‘Muslim slaughters innocent Muslims’

      I resent that.

    64. Refresh — on 9th October, 2006 at 12:49 pm  

      Source of inspiration for the media?

      Daniel Pipes, one of G W Bush advisors, who does want a war against Islam.

      http://sunny.pickledpolitics.com/?p=12

    65. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 12:49 pm  

      Shit!

      ‘Muslim slaughters innocent puppies’ that’s meant to say

      Freud!

    66. Chairwoman — on 9th October, 2006 at 12:53 pm  

      Kismet - It would probably say

      ‘muslim psychotic dog hater slaughers innocent puppies’.

      Btw why do you dislike dogs?

    67. Refresh — on 9th October, 2006 at 12:57 pm  

      Rabies is passed on through the saliva.

      Control of rabies on the continent and most parts of the world is difficult at best.

    68. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 1:00 pm  

      I want the right to be a psycho without being called a muslim psycho, especially if my psychosis has nothing whatsoever to do with allah

      I don’t really hate dogs. Just find them to be a bunch od irritating attention-seekers with no self-respect

      If you want to seek attention (like cats) you’ve got to love yourself otherwise all you’ll get is pity and judgement

    69. Chairwoman — on 9th October, 2006 at 1:08 pm  

      For me, the headline would probably be:

      ‘widowed north london psychotic……’

    70. Jagdeep — on 9th October, 2006 at 1:12 pm  

      How can you not like dogs? Those self preening sly bastards called cats are well evil. They use you and abuse you. Dogs are wonderful, friendly, gorgeous, generous, open hearted beasts (except for the rottweilers and other dangerous ones who are terrorist dogs)

      Anyway, the man shouldnt have refused the blind man as it was an example of discrimination and equivalent to a taxi driver refusing to accept a muslim/black/asian fare as by law nobody can refuse access to a blind person with guide dog. Although the story has been blown out of proportion the best thing was to educate him about his prejudice.

    71. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 1:14 pm  

      You’re right as ever Chairy. I should hold myself back just to spare Katy the funeral costs (all those dogs’ll need coffins)

      I suppose I don’t need to hate dogs anymore now that I’m married.

      I’ve kinda been holding a grudge against them ever since I got turned down by one.

      I had engraved rings with poodle and noodle (a nick name I have because my willy looks like one), but she threw it back in my face and I’ve been bitter about it ever since

      All I asked is: I give you a ring, now lick mine

      I’m over it now

    72. Jagdeep — on 9th October, 2006 at 1:16 pm  

      Just pick up a stray one you see loitering around Tottenham Court Rd desolately and shivering, one of those stray mongrels, or go to Battersea, Kismet. They’ll do anything for a chocolate biscuit and a bowl of pedigree chum.

    73. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 1:19 pm  

      Not anything Jagdeep, let me assure you my friend, some of these mutts just pretend to be your pedigree chum but just as you hoist your tool into their rectum they run a mile. I read that somewhere, that’s how I know

    74. Chairwoman — on 9th October, 2006 at 1:39 pm  

      No, I doubt that La Fluffita would welcome such advances.

    75. justforfun — on 9th October, 2006 at 3:00 pm  

      Kismet - of course they’d run a mile - they only want boyfriends who can keep up, not couch patatoes. Best get down to the gym.

      Justforfun.

      PS - Another angle on why some Muslims treat dogs so badly - its a throw back to the islamification of Iran. Zoroastrians adored and stilladore dogs and think dogs are a friend of mankind in the fight against evil , because all the traits Jagdeep has mentioned - loyalty & bravery. Most Parsi families will keep a dog as a family member and some even feed it the same food as the family - however I digress. After the Arab conquest of Iran , new muslim converts in Iran showed their change of religion by kicking out their dogs and generally treating them as badly as possible whenever they got the chance. Anyone seen treating a dog well was eyed with suspicion as maybe not a true convert. This habit has just gone on and on and overtime the reason has been lost, but cultural practice has continued.

    76. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 3:06 pm  

      Do Muslims believe in Dog?

      http://www.islamicconcern.com/dogs.asp

    77. Chairwoman — on 9th October, 2006 at 3:16 pm  

      Thank you for that really interesting link, Kismet. The obligations on keeping animals are very similar to Jewish ones.

    78. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 3:31 pm  

      I know my animals, I’ll give me that

    79. Chairwoman — on 9th October, 2006 at 3:41 pm  

      I’m reluctant to ask, but do you mean biblically?

    80. justforfun — on 9th October, 2006 at 3:54 pm  

      Sean Connery obviously thought it’s OK - here he is in “The Man Who Would Be King” . His quote has been mis-attributed to Ruhollah Khomenei by the way.

      http://en.thinkexist.com/quotations/bestiality/

      You have to laugh.

      Justforfun

    81. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 3:57 pm  

      Biblically, koranically, sean connerically, I basically like to have sex with animals but they don’t let me

    82. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 3:58 pm  

      Re: 81 superb!

    83. Refresh — on 9th October, 2006 at 3:58 pm  

      Justforfun

      What planet are your sources on?

    84. justforfun — on 9th October, 2006 at 4:22 pm  

      Refresh - a serious question deserves a serious reply. I have access to all the same sources of secret information as our dear leader Tony Blair - I google everything.

      Seriously - Iran and the treatment of dogs is not happy reading. The Parsi side and their love of dogs I know from relatives, and the Iranian side is from meeting a few Iranians who treated dogs abysmally, right in front of me when I visited them - I was actually in shock. When I read books by Mary Boyce and her eyewitness accounts from Iran, her analysis made sense, especially when put together with the fact that I believe the Koran itself does not voice a definative opinion on dogs. There has to be a cultural explanation, and the one I give could be as good as any, but then perhaps not.

      Bugger - Sean’s lawyers work fast. They have already removed his picture from the link I posted.

      Justforfun

    85. Refresh — on 9th October, 2006 at 4:37 pm  

      But not Khomenei’s attribution. Its his lawyers that should get to work!

    86. justforfun — on 9th October, 2006 at 4:54 pm  

      Oh well - better set the record straight, but first before a sin is commited.

      KISMET - stop now! You don’t have Sean’s blessing yet - you will have to download the complete works in Arabic and check foryourself.

      Blame Refresh for spoiling your fun!

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahrirolvasyleh

      I fear the missing forth volume has to be found before you can abuse that sheep your mum gave you. In the meanwhile keep her well fed and watered.

      Justforfun

    87. razib — on 9th October, 2006 at 7:11 pm  

      ew muslim converts in Iran showed their change of religion by kicking out their dogs and generally treating them as badly as possible whenever they got the chance

      my uncle is an imam in the hanafi tradition. he told me, “dogs are good, but keep them far. cats are good, but keep them close.” some of my family members have owned dogs, though this is considered unusual.

    88. raz — on 9th October, 2006 at 7:18 pm  

      KOREANS LIKE DOGS :)

      BTW, I find the distaste some Muslims in this country have for dogs funny. In Pakistan, loads of people have dogs.

    89. razib — on 9th October, 2006 at 7:29 pm  

      “KOREANS LIKE DOGS”

      is this sort of comment acceptable on this blog? i’m not asking in a judgemental or sarcastic manner…just feeling out what i can get away with :)

    90. Desi Italiana — on 9th October, 2006 at 7:32 pm  

      “BTW, I find the distaste some Muslims in this country have for dogs funny. In Pakistan, loads of people have dogs. ”

      Dogs are considered to be dirty, whereas cats are considered to be clean since they spend the majority of their time licking themselves clean.

      In Morocco and Turkey, I saw NO dogs anywhere, not even stray ones on the street. Only cats (and in Morocco’s case, the cats were painfully skinny, indicative of the poverty that Morocco faces).

    91. raz — on 9th October, 2006 at 7:49 pm  

      “is this sort of comment acceptable on this blog? i’m not asking in a judgemental or sarcastic manner…just feeling out what i can get away with”

      Wait until the next Indo-Pakistan flamewar breaks out - then you will see how dirty things can get :)

    92. Desi Italiana — on 9th October, 2006 at 7:52 pm  

      “Wait until the next Indo-Pakistan flamewar breaks out - then you will see how dirty things can get”

      Maybe for YOU they will get dirty; as far as I’m concerned, there will be no Indo-Paki flamewar for me (where’s the love, yaar?) :)

    93. Desi Italiana — on 9th October, 2006 at 7:54 pm  

      “Indo-Paki flamewar”-

      OH SHIT. Should have been either “India-Pakistan” or “Indo-Pak.” I am not trying to racially slur anybody.

      Apologies, apologies!

    94. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 7:58 pm  

      What about bangladeshis? Why is no one ever scared of us? Is it because despite all them floods we’re still crap swimmers that need India to throw us an oar everytime we’re sinking? I just lost my own argument once again

    95. raz — on 9th October, 2006 at 8:01 pm  

      “Indo-Paki flamewar”

      LOL Desi, Freudian slip?

      Hey, if all Indians were as sweet as you, there would be no need for any flamewars ;)

    96. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 8:02 pm  

      Ahem, Indo-Pak-Bangali flamewar, thank you

    97. justforfun — on 9th October, 2006 at 8:05 pm  

      Koreans like dogs

      Well I thought it was funny.

      Razib - of course its acceptable - well to me anyway.

      Steer clear of too much free thought though, the thought police don’t like it. He’s on now , watching.

      You’ll find though that its a lonely place here for an aetheist. Mirax has gone, been assimilated into the religious collective - they must have tracked here down. ‘They’ are obsessed by religion on this site. Razib - Britain is changing. Before, we politely talked about the weather and kept our religion to ourselves. Now we are forced to have an theological opinion. We have to talk about our religions all the time - and talking about the weather is banned!!

      Back to dogs - Desi Italiana - who thinks dogs are dirty? All muslims or just people in general? We all can get ticks. We all scratch. But I have yet to cough up a hair ball!!

      Turkey eh?- what about the Anatolian Sheppard dog? Plenty around the place. Now that is a fine beast. Butch in ” Cats & Dogs” is an Anatolian Sheppard.

      Justforfun

    98. Desi Italiana — on 9th October, 2006 at 8:35 pm  

      Just for Fun:

      “Back to dogs - Desi Italiana - who thinks dogs are dirty? All muslims or just people in general?”

      I was told this by my friends who are from the Arab world. So no, not all Muslims, but Muslims from Arab countries.

      “Turkey eh?- what about the Anatolian Sheppard dog? Plenty around the place. Now that is a fine beast. Butch in ” Cats & Dogs” is an Anatolian Sheppard.”

      Didn’t see any when I was there! Only cats- poor things freezing in the cold and victims of the ravaging Siberian winds, much like how I was when I was there in the winter.

      Kismet:

      “What about bangladeshis? Why is no one ever scared of us?”

      “Ahem, Indo-Pak-Bangali flamewar, thank you”

      I stand corrected. Well, not really. I’m not about to have a flamewar with neither Pakistanis nor Bangladeshis. I’m not the one who started talking about an Indo-Pak flamewar. It was Raz.

      Raz:

      “LOL Desi, Freudian slip?”

      No….it’s because in my mind, I was thinking “India-Pakistan” but I was writing “Indo-Pak” because you did, and apparently, I got all mixed up and wrote “Indo Paki”.

      Er….what was this blog about, initially?

    99. Kismet Hardy — on 9th October, 2006 at 8:38 pm  

      It was about horny animals

    100. razib — on 9th October, 2006 at 8:42 pm  

      Well I thought it was funny.

      sure, but it is kind of a mean stereotype which isn’t even true and used to mock east asians. dog eating is a dying practice and there is a very aggressive movement to ban it by korean animal rights activists.

      i don’t mind mean stereotypical jokes, but i assume that it is then acceptable to indulge in the same with brown groups?

    101. razib — on 9th October, 2006 at 8:45 pm  

      justforfun, thanks for telling me that the god delusion reigns here. jai didn’t warn of that particular primitive streak :)

    102. justforfun — on 9th October, 2006 at 8:49 pm  

      Razib - Argh - the Horns of Cannae - you got me there. Let me rush in and then encircled me with my own racism!!

      So to remain constant - yes assume it acceptable to indulge in the same stereotypical jokes for brown groups. Have you got any new ones?

      Justforfun

    103. razib — on 9th October, 2006 at 8:54 pm  

      justforfun, just wait. i need to feel out the boundaries of discourse here.

    104. raz — on 9th October, 2006 at 9:28 pm  

      “but i assume that it is then acceptable to indulge in the same with brown groups?”

      Absolutely. Especially Indians :)

      “i need to feel out the boundaries of discourse here”

      Just stick to flaming the retards over at Septic Mutations and everything will be fine :)

      Desi,

      don’t worry. it’s all in good fun. we all love each other really here, we just have a funny way of showing it ;)

    105. Desi Italiana — on 9th October, 2006 at 10:11 pm  

      Raz:

      “Absolutely. Especially Indians”

      “Hey, if all Indians were as sweet as you, there would be no need for any flamewars”

      And if all Pakistanis weren’t always instigating…. ;)

    106. Refresh — on 9th October, 2006 at 10:17 pm  

      “justforfun, just wait. i need to feel out the boundaries of discourse here.”

      Just spit it out man! That’s the only way you’ll find the boundaries.

    107. raz — on 9th October, 2006 at 10:25 pm  

      “And if all Pakistanis weren’t always instigating ;)

      :( but i can’t help it…

    108. Sunny — on 9th October, 2006 at 10:28 pm  

      but i assume that it is then acceptable to indulge in the same with brown groups?

      Razib, welcome. I’d say we fully welcome poking fun at brown people.

    109. razib — on 9th October, 2006 at 10:30 pm  

      raz, i resent you for stealing my first syllable :)

    110. raz — on 9th October, 2006 at 10:34 pm  

      i was here first

      *sticks out tounge*

      :)

    111. Katy Newton — on 9th October, 2006 at 10:36 pm  

      Perhaps we should call Razib… Ib.

      That way Raz’ dignity would be preserved, AND we would have an affectionate name for The Ib Formerly Known As Razib.

    112. Desi Italiana — on 9th October, 2006 at 10:48 pm  

      Raz:

      :( but i can’t help it… ”

      Then there shall be a need for flamewars…. [see # 96]

    113. razib — on 9th October, 2006 at 11:41 pm  

      …brown.

    114. Jai — on 10th October, 2006 at 10:52 am  

      ^^^For people who aren’t familiar with Sepia Mutiny, I should mention that the above is a running joke between me and Razib. For various reasons I don’t agree with the idea of using the term “brown” as a slang term for Asian self-identification (using skin-colour is a bad idea in my view), and as you all know we use geographical origin along with religious affiliation instead here in Britain.

      However, it appears that such terms may be more appropriate in the US given their own culture. I’ve jokingly accused Razib of being obsessed with using the word “brown” at every conceivable opportunity, which is why he keeps saying it at random intervals.

      Get ready for an explosion of brownness on Pickled Politics !

    115. Kismet Hardy — on 10th October, 2006 at 11:03 am  

      Where I come from, brown means smack

      If there is to be such an explosion, why don’t you all chip in together and I’ll cut you a good deal

      But I warn you though. If every pickler was smacked out the debates here would become random but frighteningly succint, at times confusing but crystal clear if you stop to think about it, sometimes mellow but often frenzied…

      Hey! You lot are on that tip anyway. Who’ve you buying your drugs from?

    116. Leon — on 10th October, 2006 at 11:31 am  

      It seems the number of topics we can cover is shrinking fast. All is lunacy at the moment…

    117. Desi Italiana — on 10th October, 2006 at 7:19 pm  

      “For various reasons I don’t agree with the idea of using the term “brown” as a slang term for Asian self-identification (using skin-colour is a bad idea in my view)”

      And alas, I wrote a post on th usage of “brown” in the US:
      http://www.passtheroti.com/?p=185

    118. bikhair aka taqiyyah — on 10th October, 2006 at 11:59 pm  

      The issue with dogs.

      Yes dogs are considered unclean and the angles dont visit the homes of those who keep them in the house. Their saliva and hair are considered unclean and you cant pray in clothes that have been contaminated by them. However they can be used for hunting wabbit, or rabbit. They can be used for hunting.

    119. Sunny — on 11th October, 2006 at 12:21 am  

      Can they be used to hunting Wahhabis Bikhair? ;) (j/k)

      Btw, I have no problems with using the word brown. It doesn’t have negative connotations like using the word “paki” and hence the word can mean whatever you want it to mean. British Asian is similarly vague when trying to figure out what it means and who it refers to. All identities are.

    120. Desi Italiana — on 11th October, 2006 at 12:25 am  

      Sunny:

      “Btw, I have no problems with using the word brown.”

      I kind of do. When you are trying to build cross border solidarities. For example, Eastern European women being caught in human trafficking is just as important as South Asian women being trafficked. And Eastern European women are not brown, but are in a similarly exploitative situation.

    121. Jai — on 11th October, 2006 at 11:13 am  

      Desi Italiana & Sunny,

      I have various complicated reasons for my reservations about the term “brown”, as you both probably know if you’ve already read my thoughts about the topic on SM. It’s probably more appropriate to the US than Britain, as there are some different cultural dynamics in the two countries to some extent. However, I don’t want to detract from Razib’s ongoing jokes on the subject, so I won’t belabor the point here on PP.

      Desi Italiana,

      Thank you for the Jagjit Singh link on the now-closed thread. He is my favourite singer — his live concerts in particular are superb. Personally I like his album “Marasim” the most — beautifully romantic, poignant stuff — although “Different Strokes” is also excellent for traditional Indian classical music fans. I’d recommend the latter in particular if you’ve never heard him singing non-ghazal songs. It’s absolutely outstanding.

    122. Desi Italiana for Jai — on 11th October, 2006 at 8:34 pm  

      Jai:

      “He is my favourite singer — his live concerts in particular are superb.”

      Don’t even get me started- he is THE singer for me. I LOVE him. I grew up listening to his ghazals, from films like Arth and others.

      Did you see the audience in that link I gave? I couldn’t believe they were so calm! I’ve heard another version of this song where Jagjit BELTS it- a vibrant and lively song full of pomp and emotion. Instead, in this performance, he watered down the song. Perhaps to tailor the audience.

      But check out the audience in this video of his Punjabi medley:
      http://youtube.com/watch?v=B7IH57BuUjA

      THIS is the way an audience should be. That’s what I’m talking about!

      But help me out- what the heck is the name of the ghazal of the first link I put out on the other thread? I’ve been dying to get a CD with that song, but I don’t know the name of the song!

      Do you know the name?

      OMG, I hope Sunny doesn’t close this now-by-dead thread before you give me an answer….

    123. Kismet Hardy — on 12th October, 2006 at 10:47 am  

      Headline in today’s Daily Express:

      OH NO NOT AGAIN

      (featuring a picture of a plane hitting a building)

      You’re right. It hasn’t happenned again. An all-american chap lost control and caused an accident that killed four people. If you don’t give a damn about journalism, at least have the decency to not make a mockery of the pain suffered by the friends and families involved

      Wankers

    124. Jai (message for Desi Italiana) — on 12th October, 2006 at 11:38 am  

      Desi Italiana,

      =>”I’ve been dying to get a CD with that song, but I don’t know the name of the song!”

      If you’re talking about “Ghazal 01″ — the first in the list on the right-hand-side — it’s called “Tum Ko Dekha To Yeh Khayal Aaya”, and is from the album “Saath Saath”, which was actually an early 80s Hindi film of the same name. So you may have to hunt around the “Bollywood” section of your local desi music store along with the usual ghazal section.

      I’ve often found the “unplugged”, ie. live concert versions of his songs to be even better than the original album versions. I have a 2-CD set called “Live with Jagjit Singh” which I also strongly recommend to you (towards the end, it also includes a shorter version of that ghazal from Saath Saath as part of a medley).

      And yes you’re right about the audience in the link you’ve posted in your message above — I guess it must have been a particularly rowdy crowd that night !

    125. sonia — on 12th October, 2006 at 11:42 am  

      121. Desi = i hear you. there are loads of people in such situations and an ethnocentric focus isn’t going to much good when links need to be built up.

    126. Desi Italiana — on 12th October, 2006 at 8:00 pm  

      Jai:

      “If you’re talking about “Ghazal 01″ — the first in the list on the right-hand-side — it’s called “Tum Ko Dekha To Yeh Khayal Aaya”, and is from the album “Saath Saath”, which was actually an early 80s Hindi film of the same name. So you may have to hunt around the “Bollywood” section of your local desi music store along with the usual ghazal section.”

      Arre yaar, you think I don’t know my Jagjit Singh?! Of course I know this song! I grew up listening to songs from Saath Saath and Arth.

      I mean the song that I linked to. About the bachelor. What is the name of that song? No one knows. :(

      “And yes you’re right about the audience in the link you’ve posted in your message above — I guess it must have been a particularly rowdy crowd that night ! ”

      That’s the way it should be! :)

      BTW, I am not too much of a fan of some of Jagjit’s more recent ghazals. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like ghazals set to western musical instruments. It doesn’t sound right to me.

      Sonia:

      “121. Desi = i hear you. there are loads of people in such situations and an ethnocentric focus isn’t going to much good when links need to be built up.”

      It’s not so much the ethnocentric focus that the term “brown” carries. I don’t mind reveling in say, the term South Asian, or “desi”. It’s the racial/skin color focus. Why does it have to be skin color?

      Personally, I am for recognizing similar poltiical/social/economic locations of people across borders; a sorts of international solidarity. :)

    127. Desi Italiana — on 12th October, 2006 at 8:04 pm  

      Kismet:

      “If you don’t give a damn about journalism, at least have the decency to not make a mockery of the pain suffered by the friends and families involved”

      I too have an aversion towards just how much 9/11 is manipulated and even exploited by the media and politicians for opportunistic reasons.

    128. Jai — on 13th October, 2006 at 10:42 am  

      Desi Italiana,

      =>”I mean the song that I linked to. About the bachelor. What is the name of that song? No one knows.”

      The one in Punjabi ? I have no idea ! Google around with the lyrics, you may stumble across it. That’s how I normally identify songs I can’t place.

      =>”I am not too much of a fan of some of Jagjit’s more recent ghazals. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like ghazals set to western musical instruments.”

      I agree. I like the more traditional, “classic” style more — call it “nawabi”, “Mughal era” or whatever. It just sounds more authentic to my ears, and of a higher quality too. (Fortunately the “live concert” versions use exclusively Indian instruments).

      Look at it this way: The last Jagjit Singh album I bought was “Soz”, although “Saher” a year or two before that was very good.

      However, I hear that he’s going to do another collaboration with Gulzar. Considering the masterpiece that was “Marasim”, I am really looking forward to this.

      =>”It’s the racial/skin color focus. Why does it have to be skin color?”

      I have exactly the same concerns, as I’ve detailed extensively on previous posts on SM if you’ve read all that.

    129. Desi Italiana — on 13th October, 2006 at 9:51 pm  

      Jai:

      Since you are a lover of music as much as I am, I would love to continue this conversation with you, but without jacking the thread (thread has been effectively highjacked by now, though :) ) I’m going to put up a post on my blog re: music, so check back periodically :)

    130. Desi Italiana crooning for Jai — on 20th October, 2006 at 12:18 am  

      Jai:

      Here it is!

      http://www.passtheroti.com/?p=269

    131. Jai saying "Aadaab Arz" to Desi Italiana — on 20th October, 2006 at 12:30 pm  

      Desi Italiana, thanks for the message. I’ve submitted a post on your blog.

      Excellent article ! Hopefully it’ll turn into an interesting discussion :)

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