The biggest issue for our generation
Over a year ago I asked - who killed Navjeet Sidhu? A year after she committed suicide by throwing herself and her two kids underneath a train in Southall, a court is holding an inquest to find the same [via SM].
Navjeet’s death was so traumatic that six months later her mother committed suicide at the same spot.
Notes from the inquest make depresssing but unsurprising reading:
She suffered from depression, which began when she gave birth to a daughter rather than a son. Her condition became worse after her husband, Manjit, who left her to return to his native India, said that he would come back home only if he did not have to do any household chores. The court was told how Mr Sidhu, who arrived six minutes after the incident at Southall station, walked past the bodies of his wife and five-year-old daughter, Simran, to pick up the body of his 23-month-old son, Aman Raj, and take him to hospital.
British Asian women are three more times than average to commit suicide. It is clear what is needed here - a grassroots campaign to challenge this all-pervasive and sickening sexism that claims the lives of women every year. But there seems to be paralysis on ground level and with politicians; how exactly is change brought about? Or is a matter of waiting for the older generation village-mentality people to die out? The politicians can’t even bring themselves to bring about tougher legislation against forced marriages.
Taking a campaign to places of religious worship could help but the management, while stating that the religious texts call for sex equality, want to avoid the issue. They would rather talk about injustices in far-off lands than women dying under their noses.
I’ve come to the conclusion that educating the men is a worthless idea. You cannot teach old dogs new tricks. The only way forward would be to find ways to empower women to find help and support when they are faced with such family hostility. Thoughts? Opinions?
=>I’ve come to the conclusion that educating the men is a worthless idea. You cannot teach old dogs new tricks
What a cop out. So what, you’re suggesting that men should just carry on and we should just set up a few helplines and shelters for the women who have to suffer this?
If you’re going to run a grassroots campaign, you have to get to the roots of the problem. The roots here are:
- men thinking women are inferior
- women not having the power or courage to fight back
- suffocating cultural restrictions
- women simply feeling like they have no choice / no way out
Men/family have a huge role to play in this. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that asian men have a hell of a lot of blood on their hands which is why the suicide rate amongst asian women is so high.
Sunny,
This is also what Martin Amis alluded to in his ‘Horridism’ piece in the Observer. Although, as usual, he was better on the polemic than the solution. I’d be interested to know how the suicide rate relates to age and class, as educationally, Muslim young women are probably one of Britains major success stories. Many of those I have met seem, at least, semi-detached from their religion. Kind of like Catholics really, picking and choosing. Whilst I have no doubt that their are some with an almost Protestant belief in Apocolypse, I seriously doubt that they are more than the imfamous ‘tiny minority’.
im not sure ’something needs to be done’; 3 times more likely, but what is that exactly? suppose the average rate is 0.04%, and its 0.12% for british-asian-women, that wouldnt mean its a serious enough problem to worry about.
but really, it better be a large enough number to justify the headline “The biggest issue for our generation” - otherwise sunny you are guilty of editorialising something out of nothing
At the ‘Honour’ Crime conference I attended last week, Anna from Jasvinder Sanghera’s KarmaNirvana said that there was now an offence relating to driving someone to suicide by illtreatment, and that she hoped to see more prosecutions under this. I do too. Waiting for the attitudes of the older generation to die is lazy and cowardly: without a grassroots campaign, how do we make sure the young dogs aern’t learning their tricks from the old ones?
here we go, i can see this is going to be another ‘discussion’ where the friends-of-humanity look down on others and bask in their superior morality and pretend to ’solve’ problems that dont even exist, save a few weirdos who do dodgy things.
If you’re going to run a grassroots campaign, you have to get to the roots of the problem. The roots here are:
- men thinking women are inferior
- women not having the power or courage to fight back
- suffocating cultural restrictions
- women simply feeling like they have no choice / no way out (Rakhee)
I love it when lefties talk about getting to the ‘root of the problem’, which means nothing more than departing from obvious facts about reality, in search for imaginary, not well understood, but nevertheless certain to be significant ’causes’ or roots, that must be the real problem. The root of the problem, sweet-heart, are the dodgy fuckers who do these things. Nothing more nothing less.
- women are inferior to men (thats just reality)
- women cannot fight back without getting fucked up (men are just stronger)
- suffocating cultural restrictions (and yet the vast majority of people under these restrictions or behind them do not suffer similar fates)
- women feeling like they have no choice/no way out (this is often the case for humans in general)
=> The root of the problem, sweet-heart, are the dodgy fuckers who do these things. Nothing more nothing less.
The root mistake of your argument, honey, is that people are not born as ‘dodgy fuckers’ - something causes this and a lot of it is driven by upbringing, culture and ridiculous social boundaries.
As for women being inferior to men? Come, don’t be scared now, take my hand, I’ll lead you in to the 21st century.
Excuse me butting in on something I am totally unqualifid to comment on, but did realitist actually say that women are inferior?
I’m with Rakhee on this…that was a real bone-headed reply realist. Saying that the problem is simply “dodgy folk” is about as simplistic as Bush saying at the UN “Syria needs to stop doin that shit” to solve the assult in Lebanon.
Problems are usually left alone and never solved precisely because the issues are deeply-rooted and require an introspection on many levels to comprehend carefully and adequately.
Your particular example about “humans often feel like they have no way out” smacks of severe apathy and is really just a completely cynical view of a problem that can be realistically tackled in this country with a series of policies that educate men and safeguard and empower women. Surely you are aware of the various struggles through history that have been won through attrition and effort?
I also reject the idea that we can simply ‘give up’ on educating men about these problems. That’s just seems like a totally counter-productive measure, because this is a 2-way process and as socially constructed beings men have the same ability to emphasise as women do, they have mothers and sisters too right?. If anything, isn’t it more important to seek changes within men? precisely because they are so stubborn on this issue? I experiencied a lot of this mentality when I was in India, and guys I knew who I thought were totally great would suddenly usher me to sit down as they commanded the ‘woman of the house’ to bring us our food and tea..*snap snap* I thought it was wrong and much to their horror, told them that.
The culture is allowed to breed and fester there practically from birth, but I think like most things, it can be changed with enough attention paid to it.
chairwoman/
yes…but watch how he twists it in his next post to say ‘that’s not what I meant! You guys interpreted it wrong! what I meant to say was…..”
Good god. I’m shocked. I remember reading about this, but had no idea it wasn’t an isolated case.
Being a born chauvinist I have to admit I also consider women inferior to men. Men are stronger, faster, and most have some sort of grip on the laws of physics. However, we’re also a lazy bunch of bastards and that more than puts the ladies on an equal footing. Without my wife around to kick me up the arse once in a while my house and everything in it would long since have fallen apart, just a PC desk in a pile of overflowing ashtrays and rubble.
I’m very grateful to her for this, which may be a root of the problem. My English mother beat, starved or fined me until I tidied my room, mowed the lawn, hoovered the house, stripped the wallpaper or whatever else. My wife’s Spanish mother did everything for her kids, and the son while not the eldest was given preferential treatment. He’s now a fine man, but it doesn’t always turn out thus and Spain has a large problem with domestic abuse, most noticable in the areas where divorce is still not so socially acceptable. Many wives have to do literally everything around the house except maybe change plugs and lightbulbs.
I’m not saying for a moment it’s the mothers’ fault here. If you treat someone decently and they bite the hand that feeds that makes them the bastard, not the feeder. Just as I am grateful for how my wife cares for me, a mother must make sure her son is grateful for the care lavished on him. Perhaps another root cause is that in England it’s usual for a young man to live the bachelor life for a few years before marrying, whereas in Spain the norm is to live with one’s mother right up to when you marry and live with one’s wife?
Sunny is right in that the women need support, they may feel trapped but there is an open culture out there that can and will help them to gain independence. They have to know it’s there and how to contact it. Also, I suspect women feel looking for help outside their family means their society will view them as a failure as a wife, that idea needs to be stamped on. They need support from everyone around them.
For the men, harsher penalties. A man who would beat his wife would beat a child, a dog, in fact almost anything except another man who might beat him back. He’s a bully, not a nice type. I’d say show leniency the first time, but the second he needs to go to jail and for enough time to be on the wrong end of a few beatings himself. Jail is not good for much, but it is good at teaching bullies a bit of humility. It doesn’t matter how hard you think you are, in there there will be someone much, much harder.
The root mistake of your argument, honey, is that people are not born as ‘dodgy fuckers’ - something causes this and a lot of it is driven by upbringing, culture and ridiculous social boundaries.
Yes mosters are created not made, blah blah. Sometimes this is true enough, i dont deny it. but i refuse your explanation that culture and ’social boundaries’ are the ‘root cause’, because this is no good an explanation either. in a war torn country, those horrible conditions may have lead a man to become a monster, but the fact that he did, and others did not, shows that the monster is the problem not the conditions.
many asians live comfortable within this boundaries, and culture, and socio-economic-whatever-the-fuck-liberal-favorite-excuse, but when they do dodgy shit, they’re the root cause, not anything else.
why look for causes that are present all over the world, to all kinds of people, that do not spurn them to commit horrible acts, and yet when a person does, we do not say automatically that the ‘root cause’ will definitely bring this result about if a person is exposed to it.
you play the same game looking for hidden causes of terrorists when this is counter-productive and pointless
“Excuse me butting in on something I am totally unqualifid to comment on, but did realitist actually say that women are inferior? “
women are at least physically and intellectually inferior to men.
the ultimate root cause of islamic terrorists is islam. and the ultimate root cause of all evil men is humanity. so the solution is obvious, wipe out muslims to solve the problem of terrorism, and wipe out humanity to solve the problem of humanity. easily done.
or accept that the root cause of terrorism is terrorist, and the root cause of beating-the-fuck-out-of-women is dodgy-men.
It’s important to note that Navjeet Sidhu didn’t commit suicide because ‘typical Asian man’ beat her. She was suffering from depression.
While domestic abuse in the Asian household has started to be tackled (although, according to my friends at Asian Women’s Aid, it takes an average of 35 beatings before battered women call the police and around 50 to file for divorce) with the police and community showing increased support for the welfare of abused women, depression remains a hugely ignored taboo in our community.
We’ve all heard it: ‘She’sd making it up’, ‘She’s attention seeking’
While the battered woman has physical brusises to cry for help, depressed women have only mental scars.
Few people in the first generation know the difference between manic depression and mad as a fruitbat.
Sorry to be serious and all, but some things need to be taken seriously
intellectually inferior? You really are a moran aren’t you?
Bert Preast - Being stronger, faster and with a understanding of physics doesn’t make you superior, just different. Women have a better instinctive grasp of language and interpersonal skills.
So off you go, find something heavy to shift, then move rapidly to the lab, and knock up a nifty weapon of mass destruction before lunch. Then I will persuade you not to use it, and then negotiate on your behalf with the men you are at odds with before preparing dinner.
=> why look for causes that are present all over the world etc etc
If you have a problem, you cannot solve it properly unless you find out what caused it in the first place. Think of it like this. If you have a headache, you take a painkiller to numb the pain. 4 hours later, the pain comes back because you haven’t got to the bottom of what’s caused it. In the same way, having this ‘just stick a plaster on it and it will go away’ mentality will not (and has not) got us anywhere.
=> Many asians live comfortable within this boundaries, and culture, and socio-economic-whatever-the-fuck-liberal-favorite-excuse, but when they do dodgy shit, they’re the root cause, not anything else.
Experiences and incidences have different psychological impacts on people. The people who do ‘dodgy shit’ are the ones outwardly expressing the problems for sure, but what causes them to do this is surely a combination of who they are, what they’ve been exposed to, how they’ve been taught right or wrong, their religious and cultural beliefs and on top of that, what they believe themselves. You can’t just say ‘they’re monsters and thats that’. It isn’t as clear cut.
=> you play the same game looking for hidden causes of terrorists when this is counter-productive and pointless
What would you suggest? Terrorists are dreadful people, but they weren’t born with bombs in their hands Realitist. Something triggers this all off - something causes them to act and think in the way they do.
chairwoman, dont you know, friends-of-humanity dont care about particular cases - what are you doing talking about navjeet sidhu? Anyway, asian men are exposed to all of that shit too (social boundaries, pressures etc), if anything is to be concluded from this, its that women are poorer are to coping with life than men, and thats why they commit suicide
i suggest we all rally behind mr bush as he unleashes his powerful resources on terrorists. but that would be too much to ask, for lefties prefer to talk about meaningless shit like ‘oh he lied about wmds’ instead of sorting out problems.
i know what spurns mr terrorist to blow shit up, its just a desire to fuck up someone else. yeh there might be other reasons too, but the more you find out about them, the dodgier the terrorist seems
realitist - Gosh you are so right! We intellectually inferior women just don’t know our place.
Bad Sonia, Bad Katy, Bad Bad me. Thinking we could play with the boys.
Come on girls, back to the toy box. Where are those Barbies.
dont take it personally hun. im sure you’re clever girls, even tho you probably carry too many deluded idealisms in your minds. its unreasonable to think men and women are perfectly equal. that they are unequal, and that men are inferior is a fact of nature, even if your imagination tells you otherwise
=> i suggest we all rally behind mr bush as he unleashes his powerful resources on terrorists
*penny drops*
Now I understand why you’re saying the things you are. It all makes sense now.
Go ahead hon, follow the leader now, oh, and don’t forget to attach the puppet strings to your back.
superior even
realitist - Actually the largest suicide group is young men between 16 and 30. How else did Morrissey become so popular?
And I am not talking about Navjeet Sidhu, because as I said earlier, her experiences are totally out of my remit. I’m talking about you and your opinions.
Chairwoman - Can’t I just slob around on the sofa revelling in how big and strong I am?
Realist, I’m trying to work out how you’re linking abused women with global terrorism, but I’ve found it:
The greatest trick men ever pulled was to convince women they needed the protection of men to survive. Like women would be afraid to walk the streets if there weren’t any men around…
The greatest trick America pulled was to convince the world they needed the protection of the US to survive. Like they’d be afraid to walk the streets if America hadn’t armed everybody else…
Just want to suggest to realitist that just because he does not have the energy to look for complex causation, does not mean that causes are not complex. Also, whatever the cause is, there are likelty to be other ways to deal with it than wiping people out.
So why is such and such a man dodgy? You can say he just is, and forget it.
When a plane crashes we can just say it was dodgy too, and not look for further causes.
But maybe the effort to understand can help avoid some suffering.
If, for example, someone did not see anything wrong with their behaviour it might be because they are psychopathic (in which case perhaps experts in personality disorders need to make more effort to finding out how such people can be rendered harmless without causing harm themselves).
It might be because of their upbringing (in which case we can consider what it is to at least make a better effort with our own children).
It might be because of dynamics in his culture or subculture, in which case we can work out how to intervene in the best ways, or offer the best escape for people in danger.
It does not mean we destroy the individual or the culture. But it does mean we might have to be patient, think a lot, do some heart-searching and all sorts of things that might irritate you about inferior liberal types.
Chairwoman: naughty corner. Morrissey is not suicidal, nor are his fans. It’s a common misconception. The Mozza is, and has been, always extremely positive in his habit of wallowing in the gutter. He puts a smile on the face of the depressed by showing empathy and giving hope. For slit your throat music, you want to look more closely at Joy Division, Leonard Cohen and James Blunt
kismet, what mate, women if they wrent protected by men they’d get owned by evil men (rapists, pimps etc). are you serious?
a stable middle east, stable oil producing nations means stable world economies. unstable oil prices lead to unstable world economies. bush is trying to make things stable, its an admirable goal of his, and sane men ought to support him
Bert - Oh, go on then. Revel away.
Realist, the rapists and pimps you speak of are men, no?
Men ain’t nothin’ but trouble and you know it
It’s all to do with our deep-rooted envy towards women because they can create life and we spend the entirety of ours trying to find a point to it
Mate Arif, if friends-of-humanity wish to look for ‘root causes’, then its up to them to demonstrate how these spurned ordinary men to such horrible things. but everyone else is content to take superficial, yet obvious explanations and move on with things. looking for deeper and deeper causes is a vice of liberals, but it is not even a useful undertaking. for as i said, the root cause of islamic terorrism is islam, and the root cause of female abuse is men; but how is this at all helpful? it simply is not.
kismet, yep, they are. look dodgy men do dodgy things. why look any further than this if it takes the attention of dodgy ppl?
Maybe if Bush could consider complex causation, he would be better able to help create a stable Middle East.
Instead I see a clash of civilisation being engineered. More terrorism, more wars. But at least it means we don’t have to worry about the causes of our behaviour, just feel the self-righteusness and kill kill kill.
“the root cause of islamic terorrism is islam, and the root cause of female abuse is men; but how is this at all helpful?”
actually, the root cause of terrorism is to do with how Muslims felt wronged
the root cause of female abuse is to do with how these men were raised
If you want to follow the root all the way down, you have to identify the seed that made them this way in the first place
Only then can you hope to unroot it
Realitist, please explain your theories of how the cause of terrorism is Islam and the cause and the cause of violence to women is men.
Are you suggesting all Muslims are terrorists and all men abuse women?
Or only some?
In which case what makes the difference between those who do and do not?
arif, take it easy. when one has his self interests at heart he is more likely to find the best understanding of phenomenon. bush has his self interests at heart, and those of his country, and those of his friends. he understand the complexity better than his detractors, who are the ones who fail to understand these complex issues, and in failing, they resort to conspiracy theories about clashes of civilization, and so on.
Totally off subject (proves my intellectual inferiority, no doubt), Richard Hammond has left hospital.
Maybe the cause of terrorism is the desire to simplify the reason why people do bad things by saying they are just dodgy and then decide to wipe them out.
Should we wipe such people out realitist, mate?
The root of Richard Hammond’s ailment in racing cars. Abolish them
“actually, the root cause of terrorism is to do with how Muslims felt wronged”
muslims felt wronged? human history has seen enough wrong commited by muslims. its just karma. but i think you are right about this in a different way. muslims feel their pride attacked when they think there are non-muslims in control of their land and shit.
Arif simple explanations are more likely to be right, simply because they claim less than complex ones. have you heard of occams razor? its been adopted by the scientists who are pretty good at this reasoning/logic thing.
simple sounding explanations can be very correct, and complex elaborate explanations (which approach conspiracy theory), can be very wrong.
“Totally off subject (proves my intellectual inferiority, no doubt), Richard Hammond has left hospital”
As he’s actually just been moved to another hospital, you are right and you are wrong.
1 - 0
Arif my point is that a search for root causes if taken honestly leads us to answers that are obviously unhelpful. So why commit one to such a search? For if you take it too seriously it tells you absolutely nothing.
Some of my friends were telling me that there still exists some guys who revel in their sexist attitudes. I thought it couldn’t be possible, which guy would be stupid enough to be so blatantly sexist: guys who can only get woman be shag them by arranged marriages. By an chance realist, are you all for arranged marriages?
Good point realitist (#44), but looking for root causes is also a form of simplification of complexity into those causes which are necessary and sufficient.
Sahil - some of us are just so devilishly handsome we can get away with it.
Bert - They didn’t mention that on the news bulletin I’ve just listened to. News not as good as I’d hoped.
LOL
sahil, believe it or not, but i used to be a feminist. but luckily i snapped out of it and realised what a waste of time it all is. I got sick of listening to women complain about being held back, instead of just doing whatever it is that their being held back from. now i no longer carry those idealistic delusions. women and men are obviously unequal, and to deny this is to lose ones grasp on reality.
Yes you are a realist now, right?
Thing is realitist: you’re really boring. You may think your simplistic opinions are some how ‘radical’ and that by trolling them here at PP you’re somehow rocking the leftist boat. But all that’s happened is the tongue-in-cheek replies from the other commenters expose your own, immature thinking.
As it happens, this subject is controversial and the reasons for a higher rate of suicide in these communities are by no means obvious. Not being Asian or a woman myself, I’m perhaps not in the best position to offer an opinion, so I was hoping to read an interesting debate here. Instead I got you and your distractions.
yes sahil.
“What were the real reasons behind the popes comment?”
another example of the futile task of looking for “root causes” when there is no need
robert, im really sorry about denying you your interesting debate. the thing is, you are unlikely to get it here. what you have is liberals who are so convinced asian culture is so evil (against women, gays whatever), that they lose site of the immediate problem, and instead smuggle in their agendas. any problem amongst asians is means for them to push their reforms. but you wont get to the reality of the matter, because as i saw, these people simply do not understand asians. they dont even understand the concept of ‘honour’, they mock it, and dismiss it, so how are they going to come any real understanding of a real problem? they dont even understand it!
Wahey, I’ve found the link: Feminists give women a bad name, terrorists give muslims a bad name
Look, as much as you may think this place is full of liberals who don’t understand ‘reality’ or ’self-interest’ or ‘logic’ in general, that’s not the case. Yours truly studied economics (yes there is a lot there about self-interest and reality), and think your analysis is stupid and simplistic. As for the concept of ‘honour’, that term varies radically across cultures and even within cultures. Do you believe it is honourable to kill your own sister or daughter because she was dating some guy you didn’t approve of. Look at the bloody Mullahs issuing Fatwas, that prohibit muslim girls from interacting with Hindu boys for 5000 rupees, because some guy didn’t want his daughter ’soiling’ his honour.
There’s a serious problem clearly. Sunny’s definitely right there. chauvinistic patriarchalism.
I agree with Rakhee right up at the top.
‘educating the men is a worthless idea’ -?
{it’s difficult - how is it ‘worthless’? educating women is also pretty difficult. generations of women have internalized the fall-out from such patriarchalism, trained their daughters to do the same, trained each other to do the same. Changing anyone’s social attitudes is pretty difficult.}
There lies one of the most significant aspects of the problem!
Sunny i’m sorry but by saying that effectively you are sending a message out to men that’s its fine - perfectly fine - to carry on - if they’re behaving chauvinistically. and that they don’t have to take any responsibility. and how on earth are the women going to be empowered if they’re lumped with neanderthal men?!!Or have them around to crticize them? It will certainly be a big hindrance - as it is already. Effectively it implies that what are the women to do when they are empowered? not marry british asian men because they won’t change? so they have to avoid their community or something? I think we all know community dynamics have a big part to play - i fail to see how ‘educating’ women is going to be much good if they’re going to end up being socially ostracized. it’s not as if women aren’t educated is it - so many women who’ve been to unversity etc. and who one would assume are ‘empowered’ are not able to turn their backs on their families ( guilt - conscience etc.) and end up in certain situations. Basically the way i’ve seen it for a lot of women - the way their life will turn out will depend on the type of man they’ve married. How can we ignore that? Oh yes we can say the woman ought to be independent - sure, and how is she going to cope with a traditional communities demands and social pressure?
as a man saying this it looks particularly dodgy: it looks as if it’s a case of men shifting the blame on to someone else - like the government. you’re leaving yourself open to serious criticism. any serious social worker/theorist will be able to see straight away that changing legislation and not encouraging different attitudes is problematic. Apart from some men in jail - and possibly more censure heaped on the women - what will change? Unless attitudes change? People will ask why you wouldn’t go for a two-pronged approach.
Changing social attitudes takes a long time - it’s a long term solution and i can see why people may not be keen on it. A struggle like this takes a loong time and people had better be prepared to get stuck in. it appears to be particularly complicated by the wish to hang to what are viewed as cultural traditions and not lose this, so normal change is stunted to some extent, or is viewed with more suspicion and labelled as ‘oh you’re losing your indian-ness and becoming ‘white’ or something like that. i’ve heard this said by lots of people! and i think this is a particular problem given the diasporic context -across the Indian subcontinent people don’t have to worry about ‘not being Indian’ because obviously they are. In any case, it adds to the complexity of the situation and needs taking into consideration.
And this business about the ‘older generation dying out’ is frankly bollocks because there are plenty of people who are about 5 years older than me who seem to have retained similar attitudes - and that’s hardly a suprise is it. People learn from their environments! if you saw your dad treat your mom a certain way then you might feel justified in treating your wife that way.
and finally - you cannot teach an old dog new tricks - How Defeatist. Yes we can, and if we can’t we still damn well ought to try.
“..they’re behaving chauvinistically. and that they don’t have to take any responsibility.”
-sonia
we real men have plenty of responsibilities too. even though we dont believe we should make our women our equals.
i’ll outline these responsibilities. keeping our women safe, happy, giving them opportunities like studying and careers, making sure they respect family values, shit like that.
Oh so now you’ve put us women in our place, you want to keep us warm and safe? Purlease.
Keeping, Giving, Making, Shit.
Indeed
hey, are you complaining because im not living up to your stereotype? should i beeat you or something?
Good point Galloise Blonde - old dogs are teaching the younger dogs their tricks! Absolutely. Getting legislation in - well i have nothing againstthat - but it’s not the end of the campaign is it? it’s one part of it. clearly a wide-ranging problem isn’t going to be tackled by one approach.
realitist is doing a fantastic job of highlighting the problem in person. well done you! now we have some male chauvinism documented. Same goes for Bert Preast.
they’re doing us a big favour..
nice one rakhee
i dont even know what that word chauvinism means?
A few brief points, because I am short of time, but I will return later:
(a) A demographic, ethnic, geographical and religious breakdown of suicides should be possible to do for the basis of collating data for effective targeting of services.
(b) Sunny, one thing about religious institutions – there is a tension here between what people expect a local institution can physically achieve, even in the best of circumstances, and also the role they actually do play in community life which is, in varying degrees, and dependent on the religion and circumstance, vastly overplayed. I will post more on this point later when I get the chance, but even if they were wonderfully sensitive to the issues, it is wrongheaded to even consider them primary players in these solutions.
( c) This is about extended family, the pressures and expectations of extended families. How will it change? It already is changing. I will find reports on employment levels amongst different groups of Asian women indicative of the loosening of constricting family ties. Employment will set women free. See point (a).
(d) Rakhee, your final piece of rhetoric in post number 1 was wrong. My husband, brothers, father, grandfather and male Asian friends do not have blood on their hands, nor does Sunny, or other people who hang out here like Jai, Sid, Kulwinder, nor do most Asian men, who are good, kind, sensitive people, who already suffer prejudice and issues, without further ascription of collective guilt on their shoulders. The sooner we can be clinical about these matters the better – because in my opinion there is a serious lack of clear sighted vision on this, and a great amount of derailing agendas and issues at play from many different angles. Everybody here knows I am a militant on these issues, but I was offended by your comment, and you totally misinterpreted what Sunny is saying. The most he can be faulted for is rashness of expression. But he is a good man, like the majority of men are, often victims and complicit in systems themselves, and willing to help too given guidance and opinion.
More later when I have the time.
yeah if realitists mother/wife/partner stops feeding him - oh the poor thing - such a dependent!
anyway why focus on the suicides or the higher rate of suicides? While that’s crap, it may imply that the women who are ‘alive’ are fine and we don’t need to worry about them - as long as they aren’t displaying signs of depression or suicide. there are loads of strong women who’ve dealt with this for their whole life - we need to focus on that.
Sunny:
“I’ve come to the conclusion that educating the men is a worthless idea. You cannot teach old dogs new tricks. The only way forward would be to find ways to empower women to find help and support when they are faced with such family hostility. Thoughts? Opinions?”
We need to educate men Sunny, there’s no two ways about it. If institutional sexism is to be tackled you need to address those with power i.e. men. What’s also interesting is that a child’s mother’s education is highly correlated with the child’s own education level. So we have a bit of a chicken and egg situation.
’suppose the average rate is 0.04%, and its 0.12% for british-asian-women, that wouldnt mean its a serious enough problem to worry about. ‘
Presumably, for every one who actually killed themself, there are dozens who have a life that sucks just slightly less.
If the plight of strangers is not enough to concern you, remember it could be your wife, sister, mother or cousin that is suferring that way, and if you understand the problem, perhaps there is something you personally can do for them.
Personally, I’d like to understand the issue more. For a starter, is the difference in observed suicide rates caused by:
1. BAFs are more likely to have sucky lives.
2. BAFs are more likely to get clinically depressed given an equally sucky life.
3. BAFs are more likely to commit suicide given an equal level of depression.
4. something else.
queenbee good post.
sonia because the problem, presumably, is the women who’re depressed and suicidal?
lol. you are such a typical liberal. not content to solve the problem itself, you must have a wider, more drastic change of the whole society. i cant take you seriously, and i dont want your solutions.
soru my sister and mum are fine, but they’ve not always had a rosy life. their strong women who i admire and love greatly
Sorry Queen Bee - rhetoric isn’t ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. Employment will ’set’ women free? A lot of women are employed and that doesn’t change the fact that they want to emotionally please their family. they may not be dependent on them financially but there’s an emotional component that’s significant. Your reasoning seems a little bit deterministic if you don’t mind my saying so. It’s hardly as if people ‘depend’ on families just for money is it now?
I can see that Sunny is very keen on legislation - fine - but it doesn’t take much to add on how it is also important for men and the wider familial context to change. Unless of course Sunny just wanted to rile all the ‘feminists’ out there - Well he’s done a good job there and frankly i can’t see how that’s going to help the matter at all. And if it is the biggest issue for our generation it seems a rather unwise approach. Of course we can alwasy assume that Sunny being a man is suffering from the ‘well it hasn’t got anything to do with us men’ business. Which won’t do this ‘campaign’ much good at all!
but i also want to understand the situation better before offering a ’solution’, which might miss the mark. soru, also, ordinary, typical asian society has means for solving these problems. i know that if this navjot dude had done what he done in my community, ppl would look down on him, and he’d be considered a murderer. its not like we condone shit like that, none of us do. and yet are we not going to take sonias reforms and just change our social and cultural fabric so drastically. be reasonable.
See how this focus on suicides has railed the issue at hand. EVEN IF NO ONE COMMITTED SUICIDE this problem still remains and is a big problem!
Goodness.
‘i dont even know what that word chauvinism means?’
it’s a bit like chavinism, but instead of hating men in shiny gold trackies you hate men that think women are somehow lesser
*wheels on the truck go round and round
round and round
round and round*
“Her condition became worse after her husband, Manjit, who left her to return to his native India, said that he would come back home only if he did not have to do any household chores.”
I know men are prone to sulking but this is ridiculous…
Queen Bee, apologies, I should have contextualised this comment.
I didn’t mean Asian men across the board - it would mean I was insulting my own father, brothers and many male asian friends (inc Sunny) who are as you say, are kind and sincere. What I meant was when it comes to asian women who are depressed and exist in a strict cultural or religious environment, men can play a very significant role in further driving women to submission and feeling as though they are worth nothing. This is in extreme cases but then again, there’s nothing more extreme than suicide.
I didn’t mean to cause anyone here offence with this comment and apologise if I did.
I stand by my original first point though - just accepting that (some) men won’t change is not, in my opinion, a progressive way of thinking at all.
“I know men are prone to sulking but this is ridiculous…”
LOL, exactly, stroppy boy!! And women are supposed to be emotional!
yeh, he doesnt sound like a very good man to me. what kind of ‘chauvinist male’ washes the dishes anyway? thats what women are for innit
Sonia
Get women out of their reliance on oppressive extended families so they have options is not being deterministic. It gives women OPTIONS. It is practical. It means you don’t have to depend on other networks in order to provide for yourself, you can access and create your own networks. It is this that more than anything else will change the practical conditions of Asian womens lives. Combined with legislation, activism, and a programme of targetting of services through nuanced demographic profiling and research — these are the things that will make a difference.
Realtist - thanks for the compliment, but unfortunately I cannot return it for your own posts.
“men can play a very significant role in further driving women to submission and feeling as though they are worth nothing. This is in extreme cases but then again, there’s nothing more extreme than suicide”
true, ive seen this happen quite a bit. women like that need friendship and ppl to listen so they can bear things out until they get better.
realitist, you know the best way to a woman’s heart
buy her a dishwasher
(I feel dirty now)
Sonia #65 - I’m always glad to give the little ladies a helping hand.
what? buy another woman? i thought they hated competition. we gotta exchange notes kisma
Men tend to commit suicide because a woman left him or is in the process of doing so
Women commit suicide because the man left her no choice
Navjeet Sidhu’s case is particularly tragic because she took her children with her. It’s usually men who do that (to get at the woman) while women die quietly and alone
An Asian woman killed herself with her 2 babies, the mother followed shortly and here we are exchanging jokes about a bloody dishwasher.
rakhee what should we feel outraged about here? please help me out because i dont want to be outraged about the wrong thing. its the right of the woman to abort her baby right? her choice?
realitist aren[’t you nice and chicken and not leaving your own blog details - why don’t you have one?
Realitist, you’re foaming at the mouth, stay away from children and water.
Realitist, you couldn’t possibly feel outraged -it would mean you had some level of emotional sensitivity.
Nice try to drag me in to an abortion debate so that you could air your pompous opinions again, but sorry honey, I’m not going to bite.
Pert Breast -
how sweet of you to bother! but you needn’t worry my old friend, there’s enough chauvinism out there in the world without ‘us’ needing you. Ha ha.
options - i agree Queen Bee - I already said that didn’t I? But it doesn’t change the attitude of the wider family - that’s the problem.
which attitude?
Good for you Rakhee - this realitist person -man or woman is clearly just out to bait people. i suppose if it is a he he’s probably hen-pecked at home and feels the need to come to an internet forum to express his so-called superiority to women. Ha ha.
78 - i agree Rakhee.
Rats, I never manage to pull.
oh you know the attitude Realitist - why you spelled it out yourself - scroll up and see. i sum the attitude up n one word: CONTROL
an attempt to:
- control what the child will study in the future
- control who the child sees
- control what the child wears
- control who the child when they grow up marries
- control the child’s religious attitudes and beliefs
so by the time they grow up…
by empowering women you will cause a backlash.
sons will always do as fathers. its a difficult situation.
sonia ok fair enough. i agree with some of those things, and only to a certain extent, but im sure thats universal, and even you will do it, to some extent.
realitist of course it’s universal - who says it wasn’t? the victorian family condition was much the same. that’s why everyone had double lives….
Maybe i will..maybe i won’t.
Yeah Pert Breast, you might want to change your attitude towards women if you want to attract them
But I’m devilishly handsome. There must be something wrong with the women here, I reckon.
DId your mummy tell you were pretty? Beware
Anyhow: ignoring the men + family has the following consequence:
plenty of british asian women are empowered. so who do the men want to marry then? the british asian empowered women? maybe not - maybe that’s why they ( + parents) insist on marrying some girl from village back home.
So - what then? Same problem ensues. So it turns into a nice cycle. You empower the women over here, men marry women from over there.
Maybe Pert Breast the women have already found themselves some lovely unchauvinistic men?
If you didn’t link to yourself as http://deleted ( what’s the point of that?) we could have a look
( and probably a giggle)!
“plenty of british asian women are empowered. so who do the men want to marry then? the british asian empowered women? maybe not - maybe that’s why they ( + parents) insist on marrying some girl from village back home.
So - what then? Same problem ensues. So it turns into a nice cycle. You empower the women over here, men marry women from over there. ”
Very true, I’ve heard so many WOMEN tell their nephews not to marry some ‘city girl’ as they’re too independent and will not cook rotis at home. Guys need to make a stand, and acknowledge their laziness and chicken attitude when it comes to choosing their partners. Get rid of the aunties!!
Sahil - Nah, my mummy told me I was an arse.
Hang on Sonia…
http://thumbs.fotopic.net/083015000353.jpg
Make sure you’re sitting down. Swooning guaranteed.
“Nah, my mummy told me I was an arse.”
Same here
Nonetheless that gave me the impetus to hone my other skills to impress chicks. Hell I can even bake!
I think this is a good moment to talk about cunnilingus.
You see, like many foolish boys, I thought of it as a dirty thing
Then, as an adult, realising the bartering power that gave me when it came to fellatio, I tried it
At that precise moment, I became a better man
To this day, I make my lady feel more womanly and not ‘dirty’ by pulling her tampon string out with my teeth
The result: I get a BJ even when she’s on her period
A lesson there, chaps
You end up looking like those little men in the Ribena adverts.
Some women taste delicious when the painters come to town. Mmm more ketchup on your beef curtains, more blood on your gaping axewound sir?
Sunny, get rid of the troll. This thread has already been derailed enough.
^^^I was referring to “Realitist”, in case there is any confusion.
She didn’t just commit suicide. She KILLED her two children as well. How is this any different from that guy that jumped off a hotel with his kids recently? He has been vilifed as a murderer, and yet people are trying to feel sorry for this woman. Why the double standards? I have a lot of sympathy for people who commit suicide. I can’t feel the same way about those who murder children.
Realitist - please kindly fuck off. I don’t want threads such as these derailed by ignorant, annoying and chauvinist trolls as such as you.
The rest of you, please ignore him from now on. End of. I was hoping to come back to an interesting and engaging thread and instead its been spoilt by this idiot and everyone replying to him.
But a few points have been raised and I will address them shortly.
1) Is this the biggest issue of our generation? I think it is, when 50% of our community is forced to play second fiddle to the wishes of men. I’m not saying this applies to everyone but patriarchy / sexism remains endemic and it has extreme consequences (like suicides) to the less extreme such as domestic violence, verbal abuse, depression and much more.
I refuse to pretend this is not a serious problem - I’ve got too many friends who have at times been reduced to mental wrecks because of enormous family pressure over marriage.
This also then feeds into other social problems.
2) On absolving men of guilt. That is absolutely not what I’m saying here. I think this response is typical and idealist.
We are talking about limited resources here - time and money. Let’s say we had a bunch of money or some time to help to improve things. What would be more effective, trying to find ways to empower women or ‘educating men’. In an ideal world both but I believe faster change would come through when women are given the tools to initiate change themselves.
The former simply plays to the man’s guilt. The latter forces him into a different situation and suddenly he has more incentive to behave properly (or she is off) than in the former situation.
You have to think about incentives here people, people only change when they are faced with a different set of incentives.
3) On religious insitutions. I’m not saying they are the only way forward. But given that a sizeable percentage of the older generation regularly attend it is the fastest way to get a debate going and agitate for some change I’d say.
But they can never be the only part of any solution. Just one part I’d say.
typical and idealist
please see my comment #106
and how is it the biggest issue of ‘our’ generation - whose the ‘our’ if men aren’t included? It becomes one of those things ‘oh its women’s issues’
and in any case if one wants to do something about the familial context ( as you say yourself so many of your friends have been reduced to wrecks over family pressure) how is this going to change if one leaves the men out?
sorry sunny not good enough - if it is indeed the biggest issue then it has to look at that, and the limited time money excuse - if it’s that important then it has to be a long term campaign - and money will have to be found. How is it so much cheaper to lobby the government for legislation? that’s more concrete but no less of a long-term solution.
Sunny, this can’t be viewed in a typical economist manner i.e. greatest return in shortest time.
It isn’t about how QUICKLY we make change but about ensuring that in the long term, changes are made which will ultimately help many many more people and save many many more lives. I thought that was what we mean by being ‘progressive’.
In answer to your question - What would be more effective, trying to find ways to empower women or ‘educating men’ - I would argue they are both equally as important. Why does it have to be either/or.
Sahil - yeah the ‘aunties’ play a big part in keeping up these patriarchal traditions. a lot of them seem to think since they weren’t given any independence/choice neither should any modern girl! passing the buck on. Same goes for the ‘vicious mother-in-law syndrome’ - guaranteed most of them will have been oppressed as a daughter in law and then pass on the behaviour.
121 - Rakhee spot on. who has any money now anyway? it’s hardly as if ‘empowering women’ is so cheap! As Rakhee says why the either/or. the same campaign can aim to have different outcomes.
One can’t really think it’s that important or the biggest issue if one leaves the men out- sorry but that’s how it comes across. Call me idealist if you like - I bet a lot of the men will be saying that about your ideas to introduce legislation and empower women - does that mean that they’re not valid points?
Totally agree Sonia and Rakhee: men only need to spend time looking at their attitudes. WHilst lost time might be lost money, one can certainly spend a few seconds, checking their behaviour. Simply put, the level of effort men are putting into changing their sexist attitudes is not enough. Lazy thinking is easier. This needs to change, otherwise any legislation is meaningless. Just look at the glass ceilings present in so many fields and insititutions.
Notwithstanding patriarchalism, chauvinism, and bollock-stupid husbands, fathers etc, surely there are not enough safety-net organisations that can help these women. Or there are enough but they are failing.
I don’t work in social services, so I wouldn’t know. But if the rate of suicide of Asian women is 3 times xxxx (what, I don’t know, Sunny didn’t specify - but I’ll assume he meant non-asian women suicide), then surely there are not enough services to monitor “cries for help” from Asian women that understand the dyanmics that are peculiar to the Asian scene.
Supply women the means and the freedom to walk away from violent partners/households and educate them of their rights.
I’m so relieved that at least somebody (Queen Bee in this case) recognises I have no blood on my hands. This is just a paper cut.
Sid -
Sorry if i come across as blaming ‘all men’ - that’s not what i mean but definitely there are some men ( and women!e.g. some of the aunties..)who are fond of keeping up a patriarchal system.
So - what then? Same problem ensues. So it turns into a nice cycle. You empower the women over here, men marry women from over there.
That is only a problem if you think Asian women here marrying non-Asian men is a problem. I don’t. I think its good that if Asian women here do not marry a pindu from Southall then they find someone who values them for being independent.
I think its quite idealistic to say that money will come and that educating men is also an important part of this. Where will the money come from? Where will the time and effort come from? What exactly will you do? This is just silly idealism in my opinion. The west has transitioned to a more egalitarian society because the women have empowered themselves by becoming financially independent and with support from the govt.
Not much of this has happened by ‘educating’ men - that has happened naturally as social norms have changed and the new values are reflected in the media.
“That is only a problem if you think Asian women here marrying non-Asian men is a problem’
well i dont think it’s a problem. but that wasn’t the point! i fail to see the connection and i think you fail to get my point. if some of the women who have come to live here with their husbands are mistreated and are unhappy and commit suicide = then what? is that not part of the problem?
=> the women have empowered themselves by becoming financially independent and with support from the govt.
Women have empowered themselves. Yes.
By becoming financially independent. Yes.
With support from the gov’t? Um, hang on.
Asian women in particular hold, in general, a high regard to their families and immediate loved ones.
You’re telling me that if you’re a woman whose husband doesn’t believe you should work, that the gov’t is going to come and save the day to empower you?
It’s slightly different but I for one would never be in my job today if my father had raised me to believe that all my role in life is to cook and clean for a man! And I know for sure that even if I’d have wanted to have a career and my father forbade it, I probably would not have argued back when I was younger as I respected his wishes.
It’s all about control - some asian men need to learn that women do have an equal right to live their lives the way they want to.
It isn’t idealistic to believe that people’s opinions can be changed. I think it’s a complete cop out actually to think that they can’t.
I’m flabbergasted some might think that men should just be allowed to be the way they are without challenging this at all.
Go ahead, find a quick fix solution (which is what, by the way?) Let’s see how much that changes the lives of people in the generations to come.
well sunny i ask you back the same questions -
where’s the money coming from to empower women? who has the time to do that? what exactly will you do?
my point is wherever you think the money will come from to educate the women, you can try and use that campaign to kill two birds with one stone. Or time etc. As Rakhee pointed out - why the either/or?
If some of the women who have come to live here with their husbands are mistreated and are unhappy and commit suicide = then what? is that not part of the problem?
That is absolutely part of the problem and we have to find a way to empower all women who come into this country or grow up here.
You can’t educate men
You can, however, educate boys
My 2-yr old fella loves girls, my 9-yr old daughter likes boys
The future looks good
Well said Rakhee.
I’m pretty flabbergasted I must say as well.
With support from the gov’t? Um, hang on.
I mean in terms of providing money for refuge centres, social services, helplines etc.
This is what I mean by external support. Educating men will happen as time goes on.
Ok let me put it this way. If I had a £100 pounds to spend, I would spend that on support services such as those mentioned above. Would I spend that on an evening class designed to ‘educate men’ or an ad campaign designed to do the same? I don’t think it would work.
That is what I mean by spending money properly. If you have any counter-suggestions on spending it go ahead.
Second point - It is not just men here at fault. Half the culprits are usually women who believe the right place for their daughter is only to sit at home and be a good wife. Will you be spending money educating them too? And how do you intend to change those ingrained attitudes?
If it’s idealistic to think men’s opinions can’t be changed then why is it any less idealistic to think women’s opinions can be changed? Empowering women who may currently think they have to listen to their husband and family and that societey knows best - well that’s not an exactly easy quick task is it now?
Anyone who has worked with battered women or someone in an abusive relationship, knows how hard it is to instil self-confidence and the ability to have a good enough opinion of themselves to stand up and defend themselves, walk out etc. It doesn’t change overnight - and abusive relationships are a vicious cycle. People feel trapped and that they aren’t good enough to ‘deserve better’. If anyone thinks that’s going to be changed ‘quickly’ or ‘easily’ - well…
None of these issues talked about here are easy ones to deal with. ( so that makes all of us idealists by that standard) The easiest in fact may be pressuring political parties and governments re: legislation.
Kismet - your #86 makes up for your #112
Absolutely half the people - women are culprits. The point is that societal attitudes need changing. ANd please don’t throw the questions back - how were you suggesting women be ‘empowered’ without changing any social attitudes? And what funds were you going to use and whose time?
questions are about why an either/or -and not both. it’s an issue for both men and women, young and old. Sorry Sunny but you started this by saying you wanted to leave the men off.
anyhow, i’m not saying any more now - i’ve said plenty - apart from you find Sunny when you or whoever sets off to ‘empower women’ that they’ll demand the oppressive men need some ‘education’ too. or demand it once they’ve been magically empowered.
I’m flabbergasted some might think that men should just be allowed to be the way they are without challenging this at all.
No one said that! Both of you, Sonia and Rakhee, are not reading what I’m getting at. Absolutely men’s opinions need to be challenged. But you keep going on about educating men as if its a magic wand. What exactly does this mean in practice? Tell me.
We’re talking about what will work, not what you’d like to see happen. I’m just saying that in a power relationship where one side is clearly more powerful, it is naive to think they can be ‘educated’ to give up that power. No, you have to take it away from them and that is what I’m talking about here - investing in places, support groups, and other measures that provide support to women. I think that is more effective.
Dear Progressive Generation, may I say: my only hope after reading Realist’s stale offerings lies in Iran where, apparently, the men are now so secure in the kind of gender/intellectual/muscular/god-given supremacy he wears so charmingly, many are neglecting to bother to get an education and instead gazing at their navels (or below) in narcissistic awe while the women (veiled of course) sneak into colleges, get qualified and come out to run the homes AND the businesses. Cheeky minxes. No wonder they’re keen on beating up any of them who aren’t putting family values first - otherwise they’d be taking over.
Reminds me of that other progressive culture where China boy is lonely, looking for China girl (these days she has to be forcibly kidnapped and raped in rural areas so he can get married and breed more boys) because there are so many more males than females, owing to single child policy and the - regrettable - resulting
‘disappearance’ of millions of girl babies.
In this insane world of values, virtues and verities (ie; “Realities”) set up by the likes of Realist to measure us by, there is nothing on the spectrum from patriarchal fascist to patriarchal liberal ideals that hasn’t resulted in putting those greatest of creators, women, a little below cattle on an honest man’s tally sheet.
How delightful that multiculturalism seems to be re-opening the door in Briain to the gender stone-age we’d barely escaped from. Except, I suspect, the old hunter-gatherers had more charm than today’s chauvinist (a polite word for misogynist - for which our male centred language has no mirror equivalent)
But hey, girls - not to worry: he loves his mum.
Sunny I think you’re not reading what we’re getting at!
In terms of setting priorities, one always hears from funders - we haven’t got enough money for x but we have for y, because we have limited resour