Bush and Mush


by Shariq
29th September, 2006 at 1:09 am    

Prologue

“The new Pakistani general, he’s just been elected, not elected, this guy took over office. It appears this guy is going to bring stability to the country and I think that’s good news for the subcontinent”

At the time presidential candidate Bush was widely castigated. Not only could he not name the Pakistani general, he was endorsing the military takeover of a democratic government. What no one could have predicted was that foreign policy would be the key theme of the Bush Presidency, with Musharraf as a key player.

9/11

“Be prepared to be bombed. Be prepared to go back to the stone age.”

Musharraf’s claim that Pakistan was threatened after 9/11 is not surprising (for a comment on the exact chain of events click here). A lot of people have suspected that Pakistan was in danger of being bombed alongside Afghanistan and a case for war wouldn’t have been difficult to construct. Links to the Taliban – check. Weapons of Mass Destruction – forget Iran and Iraq, Pakistan’s been nuclear since 1998. Terrorist Training camps in Kashmir – check. Aggresion towards neighbours – The Kargil fiasco was only two years old.

Of course millitary action would have been a catastrophe for all involved. Even so with the Paksitani equivalents of Ahmed Chalabi egging the US on, I suspect the public relations battle in America would have been even easier than it was for Iraq.

The Future

Clearly Musharraf was coerced and made the only decision open to him – supporting America. That he can now talk openly about this shows how the balance of power has shifted. The ‘stone age’ in the CBS interview was partly a rebuke against Bush’s assertion that he would have no hesitation in sending US Troops into Pakistan to capture Bin Laden. This may be true, but its hard to see the US managing to apprehend Bin Laden without Pakistani assistance in the first place. In any case the prospect of invading Pakistan now is completely implausible.

Misc

Musharraf is now doing the tv rounds as well including an appearance on the Daily Show with Jon Stewart. Stewart demonstrates yet again that he is not only funny but also more thoughtful and intelligent than most tv anchors.

Eteraz has a piece on a hilarious anti-Musharraf rally in New York. For insightful updates on Pakistan, www.pakistaniat.com is a must read blog.


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Filed in: Current affairs,Pakistan,United States






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  1. Amir — on 29th September, 2006 at 1:26 am  

    Musharraf is now doing the tv rounds

    Mushi’s vanity knows no bounds! Ha ha! :-)

  2. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 1:27 am  

    Truly, Musharraf is one of the greatest leaders in the world today, and an inspiration for Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and all other Asians. His performance on the Daily Show was awesome. What a man.

  3. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 1:32 am  

    The Musharraf book is selling like hotcakes in India :)

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1808224,0008.htm

    It’s also near the top of the Amazon US and UK charts. Buy a copy PP’ers :)

  4. Amir — on 29th September, 2006 at 1:40 am  

    I wanna see another Raz/Vikrant face off on this thread! I have yet to make up my mind about the Indo-Pak rivalry – it is up to Raz and Vikrant to sway me in the right direction. :-)

    Go guys. Fight it out!!

    FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! :-)

  5. Amir — on 29th September, 2006 at 1:43 am  

    Here’s a link to Mushi’s cushi book

  6. Amir — on 29th September, 2006 at 1:46 am  

    The blurb reads…

    [I quote]

    “It is almost unprecedented for a head of state to publish a memoir while still in office. But Pervez Musharraf is no ordinary head of state. As President of Pakistan since 1999, his is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, and he continues to play a crucial role in the global war on terror. A one-time supporter of the Taliban, a general who fought in several wars, President Musharraf took a decisive turn against militant Islam in 2001. Since then he has survived two assassination attempts; rooted out militants in his own government; helped direct countless raids against al-Qaeda both in his cities and in the mountains; and tracked Osama bin Laden with technical and human intelligence. IN THE LINE OF FIRE is astonishingly revealing and honest about dozens of topics of intense interest to the world. Among its many revelations: exactly how Pakistani authorities tracked down and smashed three major al-Qaeda control centres in the mountains; how al-Qaeda’s many-layered structure was revealed after the assassination attempts; Bin Laden’s current position within the al-Qaeda hierarchy; what it has been like to deal with Bush and Blair; how Pakistan and India have avoided nuclear confrontation; and much more. The terrible earthquake of 2005, killing nearly 40,000 Pakistanis, is just one chapter in a life and career that has been filled with danger and drama. The worldwide launch of President Musharraf’s memoir promises to be a sensation.”

  7. Sunny — on 29th September, 2006 at 1:50 am  

    I’ve been invited on BBC Asian Network tomorrow morning 11am) to partly discuss Musharraf’s book. I have to admit his interview on the Daily Show came across quite well.

    But I’m reminded of a hilarious article Zia Sardar wrote on General Musharraf a few weeks back in the New Statesman.

    Last year, I bumped into him in the restaurant of the Intercontinental Hotel in Islamabad. He came over to my table and patted me on the back. “I am very interested,” he said, “in the opinions of learned Pakistanis like you.” “I am British,” I replied. “And I think Pakistan is a failed state.” “We will change your mind,” he shot back. “We will make you proud to be a Pakistani.” The only way he can do that is to hang up his military uniform.

  8. SastaRasta — on 29th September, 2006 at 1:53 am  

    His performance on the Daily Show was awesome. What a man.

    No, what an actor!

    An inspiration for Indians? Speak for yourself brother (I don’t have a problem if he is an inspiration for Pakistanis).

  9. Amir — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:12 am  

    Here’s an exclusive promo for Lost Season 3.

  10. Amir — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:26 am  

    Here’s an extended promo from Lost Season 3.

  11. Vikrant Singh — on 29th September, 2006 at 8:37 am  

    Haha i’ve decided to disconnect my cable connection… why you might want to ask… well we watch tv for entertainment… dont need cable for entertainment now that i’m reading Mush’d book. Haha this book is SO funny that i’m barely able to concieve that Mush persuaded Simon & Schuster to publish the book!

    Among the controversial claims made by Bush:-

    1.)India stole nuclear secrets from… ahem… Pakistan! HAHAHA !! India has the bomb back in 1974, 3 years before A.Q Khan went around stealing nuclear secrets from West.

    2.)Pakistan WON the Kargil war.. Shit i was laughing like mad for hours. Though it would be unfair to expect Pakistani leaders to accept their misadventures in Kargil… Grow up guys.. accept your mistakes… you fucked up in Kargil!
    5 entire divisions of Northern Light Infantry were wiped off.

    3.) Indians under reported their casualties in Kargil.

    Bit rich coming from a country that insisted until recently that the 2500 Pakistani soldiers killed in Kargil were indigenous Kashmiri “freedom fighters”…

    Lastly do you guys know that Musharraf’s biography has been ghostwritten by a man who insinuated that 7/7 was a Jewish consipracy to discredit Pakistan!

    @raz:
    The Musharraf book is selling like hotcakes in India :)

    Nothing sells like good Fiction Fantasy in India.

  12. Vikrant Singh — on 29th September, 2006 at 8:40 am  

    Among the controversial claims made by Bush:-

    Make it Mush..

  13. Chris Stiles — on 29th September, 2006 at 9:53 am  

    Yorkshire Ranter on this topic:

    “Now, you don’t go round threatening to bomb nuclear powers. Ask North Korea. Not that Pakistan has a credible minimum deterrent capability against the continental US, but there are plenty of things they could have bombed. There’s the madman option, of course: threaten to attack India or China and start a nuclear war. Call it the Perfect Anarchist’s defence, as in the character in Joseph Conrad’s Secret Agent who avoids arrest by perpetually going about wired as a suicide-bomber. But there are less crazy and more direct targets – Gulf oil infrastructure being exhibit A, Diego Garcia exhibit B, the US 5th Fleet exhibit C. And the dogs in the street know that a US air campaign against Pakistan would almost certainly have brought about that country’s talibanisation – Musharraf was struggling then to keep the ISI under control, not to mention fellow generals from scheming with his old enemies and Baluch rebels.”

    So, either the story is nonsense, or there are some truly crazy bastards in charge. This possibility can no longer be ruled out, of course, but Armitage never struck me as a reckless goon. His handling of the India-Pakistan nuclear crisis a year later was solidly realist and realistic, and eventually crowned by success. Had he actually issued such a deranged threat, would he have got a fair hearing in Islamabad?

    he’s faced with two irreconcilable positions – the combination of considerable popular support for the Taliban on the frontier and the persistent institutional links between the ISI and al-Qa’ida, coupled with the army’s historical concern for state unity under upper-class Punjabi leadership, and the pressure from the US and India, not to mention the coup dread, and the economic need for outside capital to employ the growing population. He’s trying to cover them by constant manoeuvring, which can be done for short periods of time.

    From: http://yorkshire-ranter.blogspot.com/2006/09/all-pakistan-thats-fit-to-print.html

  14. Bert Preast — on 29th September, 2006 at 10:01 am  

    That’s the first time I’ve seen Musharraf in an informal setting and I admit it’s hard not to like the man.

    It’s rather worrying he had time to write a book, mind. Thatcher reputedly slept 3only 3 hours a night, and look how unhinged she became.

  15. soru — on 29th September, 2006 at 10:22 am  

    Virtually all dictators are personally charismatic and likable men, about the only exceptions are the true monsters. Usually they don’t come across well on TV though.

    There’s a really common thing amongst liberal authors and activists (journalists usually know better) where they come to meet one particular dictator and become personally convinced that, while dictators in general are bad, the one prepared to spend time talking to them is more or less a good guy doing the best they can for their country in difficult circumstances.

  16. Kismet Hardy — on 29th September, 2006 at 10:46 am  

    Didn’t American magazine Parade name musharraf as one of the world’s top 10 most dangerous dictators?

  17. Kismet Hardy — on 29th September, 2006 at 10:47 am  
  18. sonia — on 29th September, 2006 at 11:15 am  

    it’s silly to become a military dictator.

    why then any ‘nice’/valid reforms you may want to make are going to be open to a whole lot of criticism.

    so what’s the point? a bit of ‘glory’? being able to get a book contract without too much hassle i suppose..

    oh but then the ‘the end justifies the means’ crowd wouldn’t mind i guess.

  19. Jai — on 29th September, 2006 at 11:18 am  

    Musharraf was a lot less genial on Newsnight compared to The Daily Show…..

  20. sonia — on 29th September, 2006 at 11:21 am  

    compared to pakistan’s past dictators’ he doesn’t look as ‘violent’ – (e.g. Zia ul Huq – now there was one heck of a scary looking fellow). he’s clearly gets the whole PR thing..

  21. sonia — on 29th September, 2006 at 11:23 am  

    there’s a ‘nice’ picture of the two culprits on the wikipedia page for musharraf – it would go nicely with this post..

  22. AsifB — on 29th September, 2006 at 11:30 am  

    Talking of past Pakistan military dictators – Ayub Khan was a feature of the Cliveden/Keeler set. (and your Bhuttos etc have never had any problems picking up Western sycophants)

    One revealing aspect of the book according to the Bangladeshi press is his deluded support for the Yayha Khan military junta against Bangladesh in 1971
    (the late Terry Thoman lookalike Zia-ul Huq got off on being associated with mass murder of Bengalis only because he had been in Jordan helping the plucky little king put down Black September..)

    Pakistani President Musharraf Weeps!!!

    Friday September 29 2006 14:11:18 PM BDT

    M.Islam, USA

    Following is what Gen. Musharraf writes in his book “In The Line of Fire”. This is very interesting since it shows how he sees Bangladesh and it’s birth. After 35 years, this general has the audacity to say East Pakistan was snatched away from Pakistan unfairly to form Bangladesh.

    He does not seem to be at all sympathetic towards the atrocities and destruction his soldiers committed against innocent Bengalese; as if he is rather expressing his anger at his leadership for surrendering? It seems like he wanted to continue killing of Bengalese in the name of saving Pakistan. He is not satisfied with all the killings and destruction they did against the Bengalese.

    His mission was to keep the country together regardless of what it took (killing, raping, buring). This butcher does not understand the whole nation of Bengalese were tired of being 2nd class citizen under Pakistani/Punjabis and working for them for 24 years. He does not understand our freedom loving loving people did not want to be ruled any more.

    He says, him and his soldiers were all “brimming with confidence” to go to East Pakistan on a commando mission when ceasefire was announced. Ceasefire??? What lie. Didn’t his 90 thousand Pakistani army actually surrender unconditionally as they were being defeated miserably by our brave sons and daughters? What a hypocrite….What would have his little commando group (SSG) have done when his fellow 90,000 soldiers were getting their ass kicked by the brave Mukti bahini and Mitra bahini (indian force helping Bengalese)?

    I have to admit, up until this moment, I thought Musharraf is a good leader for Pakistan and a good person. Now I see he is no different that those killers (Bhutto-Tikka-Yahhia gang).

    We Bengalese better wake up and unite against these butchers and their shameless (behaya) boot lickers in Bangladesh (Razakars like Nizami, Saydee, Golam Azam) regardless of our political affiliation. To me, he is insulting our entire nation when he says what he says in his book about our beloved country Bangladesh.

    -M.Islam
    Houston, Texas, USA
    *************************************************************

    Musharraf wept at birth of Bangladesh
    Blames Bhutto for It in his book
    Our Correspondent, New Delhi

    Blaming the Zulfikar Ali Bhutto for 1971 dismemberment of Pakistan, President Pervez Musharraf says he along with his fellow soldiers wept when East Pakistan was separated to become Bangladesh and 90,000 Pakistani troops were captured by the Indian army.

    “I broke down and cried. All my brave soldiers cried with me. It remains most sad and most painful day of my life,” he wrote in his book ‘In the Line of Fire’.

    “It was nexus between Bhutto and small coterie of rulers that destroyed Pakistan. The myopic rigid attitude of (Bangladeshi leader) Sheikh Mujibur Rahman did not help matters ………….,” he said.

    Musharraf said he, along with a company of Special Security Group (SSG) commandoes, were tasked to go East Pakistan before it fell.

    “My troops were brimming with confidence and we were all set to go when the ceasefire was announced and East Pakistan was forcibly torn away from us to form the separate state of Bangladesh. It was terrible day.

    “When I was telling my troops about the ceasefire, the surrender of our 90,000 personnel, (military and civilian) came about,” the Pakistani leader said.

    “What happened in East Pakistan is the saddest episode in Pakistan’s history,” Musharraf said, adding that it was due to ‘inept handling’ since independence.

    “Blame ultimately fell on the army. As events developed, the army was confronted with an impossible situation — mass popular uprising within and an invasion from without by India supposedly non-aligned but now being overtly helped by Soviet Union under a treaty of peace and friendship. It was actually an alliance of war,” he said.

    Blaming the US of failing to help Pakistan, he said, “……………… our long time ally, USA, apart from making sympathetic noises and wringing its hands was nowhere to be seen.”

    “No army in the world can sustain such a multi-dimensional threat. Nonetheless, the operational handling of the troops by the army’s senior leadership was simply incompetent.”

  23. Kismet Hardy — on 29th September, 2006 at 11:46 am  

    Raz: Musharraf is one of the greatest leaders in the world today, and an inspiration for Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and all other Asians

    Which Bangladeshi is that dude?

  24. justforfun — on 29th September, 2006 at 1:29 pm  

    great thread – I haven’t laughed so much for years. It would be even funnier if it was not so sad. Mush is literally a short man in an army of tall men – and has all the Napoleon complexes that go with that. Makes great TV.

    Soru – your right – dictators can be very personable people. Terry Thomas – (I like that Arif,) was also very personable. In the past I have met a few Pakistani officers and they were all very urbane personable people, but after shaking hands I still checked I had my wristwatch on. The Pakistani people will have to one day learn that their military are not their saviours, but rather parasites who continually hold the country as hostage.

    Chris – interesting article you posted from the ranter. The US can still launch an air campaign against Pakistan, if the the USA feels its interests are better served, rather than by keeping the status quo which I think has stategically run its course. After the Cold war , Pakistan has no stategic value to the US, or have I missed something? It will lead to the breakup of the country but perhaps it will be easier dealing with the different groups in Pakistan, once the tensions have been released. Each ethinic group can go their own way, no longer carring the burden of having to live up to the image of being ‘the Islamic home for Indians’ – they can just be themselves.

    Sind will go its own way and make money
    The Baloochis will seperate out.
    The Shia of Gilgit will be free and live peacfully in their mountain eirye.
    Without Pakistan, India may be more accomodating about the Kashmir valley and Azad Kashmir being an automomous region, as India will not lose face in such a major restructuring of the region. Its already playing big brother to all the above anyway in support for the leaders in these areas.
    The Pashtoons can just join in with the Pashtoons across the border in Afghanistan and the Durant Line can be re-established further south. Its already past its end date.

    The Punjabi Pakistanis, like the Sunnis in Iraq will be like the bully at school, who suddenly finds his classmates are nolonger aftraid of him and just ignore him. Its not as if there is oil in the Punjab, so its back to farming I’m afraid, and the rest of us can just get on with life.

    Justforfun

  25. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:03 pm  

    LOL at justforfun. While 400 million Indians rot to death on under $1 a day, the likes of this Hinduvata bigot can do nothing for their own people, instead merely fantasise about the destruction of another country. A sad indictment of the facist brainwashing of Indians into hating their neighbour. Which While Musharraf leads Pakistan into the 21st century, Manmohan Singh leads India into the dark ages.

  26. Sunny — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:06 pm  

    You do realise calling Vikrant a Hindutva bigot is a cheap slur we can’t take seriously Raz.

    Anyway, I have a soft spot for Mush in his tightrope walking antics, but he does chat a serious amount of nationalist crap and still hasn’t managed to abolish the hudood laws. So shame on him for that.

  27. Sid — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:07 pm  

    Good post Asif.

    Blaming the US of failing to help Pakistan, he said, “……………… our long time ally, USA, apart from making sympathetic noises and wringing its hands was nowhere to be seen.”

    Not entirely what happened at all, oh General.

    From Wiki:
    On December 16, 2002, the George Washington University’s National Security Archives published a collection of declassified documents, mostly consisting of communications between US officials working in embassies and USIS centers in Dhaka and in India, and officials in Washington DC[29]. These documents show that US officials working in diplomatic institutions within Bangladesh used the terms ‘selective genocide’[23] and ‘genocide’ (Blood telegram) to describe events they had knowledge of at the time. They also show that President Nixon, advised by Henry Kissinger, decided to downplay this secret internal advise, because he wanted to protect the interests of Pakistan as he was apprehensive of India’s friendship with the USSR, and he was seeking a closer relationship with China who supported Pakistan[30].

    In his book “The Trials of Henry Kissinger”, Christopher Hitchens elaborates on what he saw as the efforts of Henry Kissinger to subvert the aspirations of independence on the part of the Bengalis. In elaborating, Hitchens not only claims that the term ‘genocide’ is appropriate to describe the results of the struggle, but also points to the efforts of Henry Kissinger in undermining others who condemned the then ongoing atrocities as being a genocide.

    The genocide of Bangalis in East Pakistan in 1971 was entirely abetted by the USA under the auspices of tricky Dicky Nixon and Kissinger.

    Pakistani Generals and historians have been trying to write out and whitewash the genocide from Pakistan’s history ever since it happended. Not so much because of the horror of the mass killing of some 3 million but more because of the ignominy of losing to them.

  28. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:16 pm  

    “you do realise calling Vikrant a Hindutva bigot”

    Huh? Where did I say anything about Vikrant? I am talking about justforshit and his disgusting fantasy about the destruction of Pakistan. Sad to see a so-called moderate Indian like yourself refusing to condemn such barbaric views. You have many times (quite rightly) defended Israels right to exist on PP, how about defending Pakistan’s as well?

  29. Sid — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:19 pm  

    Now if you want a military man with some integrity, there’s always Gerneral Jagjit Singh Aurora who passed away recently.

  30. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:23 pm  

    Mush lays the SMACK DOWN on the BBC :)

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5387344.stm

  31. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:25 pm  
  32. justforfun — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:28 pm  

    Raz – keep your head on. I’m not calling for the destruction of Pakistan, just pointing out that for the USA , the the time may come when they think its just not worth the candle and there are other ways of re-arranging the jigsaw. If that thought is now out in the ether and now in your brain, and you can’t live with it then don’t read peoples comments. Now are that you are sitting down – I’ll insult you – Are you fanatiazing about how the Pakistani military jackboot is across the throat of your fellow muslims trapped in Pakistan. Keep on the gaining pleasure from it – its not a fantasy, but a reality and someone might as well gain some good from it, so it might as well be you. Let us know when you need a new box of Kleenex.

    Justforfun

  33. Sunny — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:33 pm  

    Doh, sorry I misread that, and didn’t see JFF’s post.

    It goes without saying I don’t support the disintegration of Pakistan though they really need to give Baluchistan more autonomy.

    JFF – please keep the paranoid fantasies under control.

  34. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:36 pm  

    [edited out by mod.]

    Your disgusting fantasy about Pakstan collapsing is indicative of the pathetic Indian fanatic refusal to accept Pakistans right to exists and obsession with its destruction. Even more ironic given that India has more freedom movements than any other nation on earth. Maybe you should concern yourself with the plight of the oppressed in Jammu and Kashmir, Bihar, Jharkhand, Chhattisgarh, Nagaland, Manipur, Assam, Uttar Pradesh, Andhra Pradesh, Khalistan – not too mention hundreds of millions of dalits living like slaves. Then again, introspection is hardly a quality one could expect from an animal like you.

  35. Yakoub/Julaybib — on 29th September, 2006 at 2:48 pm  

    Well, Bush doesn’t really give two hoots about democracy, like all US Presidents since WWII. ‘Democracy’ and ‘freedom’ in Empire speak just mean making other people’s countries open to corporate exploitation. So as long as Busharaff is doing GW’s bidding, which includes shipping suspected terrorists to Bagram and following the Washington economic consensus, it doesn’t really matter if anyone voted for him.

    Wasalaam

    TMA

  36. Vikrant Singh — on 29th September, 2006 at 3:05 pm  

    Then again, introspection is hardly a quality one could expect from an animal like you.

    Bit rich coming from a Pakistani… who dont even dare to criticise their nation for genocide of 2 million Bengalis. The except for J&K the “freedom movements” you point out have absolutely no mass support base. Maoist threat though underestimated by Indian govt. is often exagerated by lefties and Pakistanis. Pakistan on other hand is Punjabistan, with Punjabis bullying all others.

    not too mention hundreds of millions of dalits living like slaves.

    Really? have you EVER been to India? Do you even know about the comprehensive affirmative action for Dalits in place in India? Many wrongs have been done in India, but nowhere has there been an effort on such a scale to right the wrongs. I have no illusions about conditions of Dalits in feudal wastelands of MP, Bihar and say eastern UP but discrimination against dalits in most areas is non-existent or minuscle. I’ve had it with your cheap digs at India.

  37. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 3:12 pm  

    Hey Vikrant, are you going to condemn justforfuns disgraceful and unprovoked call for Pakistan to be dismantled? I want to see who the real moderates are. Time to put your cards on the table.

  38. justforfun — on 29th September, 2006 at 3:17 pm  

    Sunny – paranoid fantasies? The existance or non existance of Pakistan really will have no bearing on my life. If you were born before 1971 would you still hold that It goes without saying I don’t support the disintegration of Pakistan though they really need to give East Bengal more autonomy. – but no matter . I know what your sentiment is. Only Pakistanis are are allowed to talk about Pakistan, and the rest of us should just keep our observations to ourselves. Each to his own ghetto. Only joking Sunny so please don’t get upset, but just reflect on your words. Baluchistan now, but what about the Shia and Ishmaeli around Gilgit etc etc. When will they be added to your list , soon? For myself, I am upset damn right I’m upset and I am bitter. Kashmir is a football that the like of Raz just kick around and around – and Kashmiris get it in the neck from all sides. Pre 85, Kashmiris were able to get on with life, a more peacefull kind people you could not find anywhere. Pre 85 I spent a year in and around Sopore and never once was I in anyway feel uncomforatble or worried by my hosts, where ever I went. Then that fucker Terry Thomas decided to ecalate a national macho standoff between India and Pakistan and make it an up close and dirty war between Kashmiri and Kashmiri. No longer could a kashnmiri just try and get on with life. He either had to be with Pakistan or was deemed to be against Pakistan. Noiw in 2006, the small babies I saw in 1983 will be young men and girls and they will just be caught up in war that was not their making. I think they will be happy to know there are people who remember Kashmiris to be what they were and not what they are portayed as now. Mush is just another one of these fuckers who just can’t keep out where he is not wanted. Zero tolerance to fucking military dictors world wide. He should have been banged up the moment he got off the plae.

    As Sid has posted in #27, the US has played a major part in the very existance and direction of Pakistan, The US does change its mind every now and then, when its interests change. It was an observation on my part that I felt I put accross. If it comes accross as a the ravings of a Hindutva fanatic then what can I do? I can only ask you to read my post again in context with it as a reply to Chris #13.

    As for Raz’s analysis of Indias problems – he is right India has alot of problems allround, but a US air strike on India will not happen and so its a moot point and of no relationship to an airstrike on Pakistan which is what I was addressing.

    Justforfun

  39. Sunny — on 29th September, 2006 at 3:25 pm  

    but discrimination against dalits in most areas is non-existent or minuscle. I’ve had it with your cheap digs at India.

    Vikrant – pure rubbish.

  40. Jai — on 29th September, 2006 at 3:29 pm  

    Sunny,

    Just a quick note — I sent you an email this morning (to the address listed on the “Contributors” page). Not sure if you’ve checked it but I’d be grateful if you could please take a look when you have some spare time. Just a couple of important points I wanted to make offline. (Don’t worry, nothing negative about you or PP).

    Many thanks.

  41. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 3:32 pm  

    What’s funny is that this was a fairly light-hearted thread about Musharraf until justforfun showed up. Suddenly, out of nowhere we get an absurd, bigoted, fanatical rant about Pakistan being dismantled. WTF?!

    I have to ask myself:

    Why is their such hatred for Pakistan in India?
    How widespread is this hatred?
    What do moderate Indians think of people like justforfun?
    Do they condemn, ignore or tolerate these views?

    At the end of the day, there is one simple question that needs to be answered by every Indian.

    DO YOU RECOGNISE PAKISTANS RIGHT TO EXIST?

    If you do, then as a moderate Indian you must confront the likes of justforfun. It is your duty. Only by rejecting this extremist view can peaceful co-existence between Pakistan and India take place. I know there are many peaceful Indians. I just want to see you being more vocal in rejecting the unacceptable viewpoints expressed by people like justforfun. This is the way forward for peace.

  42. justforfun — on 29th September, 2006 at 3:40 pm  

    Vikrant – you really, really need to get out more. Now you in India, and at 17, you have the stamina and health to really travel around. You will be changed, and hopefully you will have alot to contibute without making silly statements about the level of descrimination against Dalits in India. To paraphase our dear, soon to be departed leader, Tony Blair, ” You are the future, make it what you want” – *God help us- I mutter under my breathe – oh I forgot I’m an aetheist – bloody hell – the future in Raz and Vikrants hands is enough to drive anyone to Hinduism* -

    Justforfun

  43. Jai — on 29th September, 2006 at 3:46 pm  

    Raz,

    =>”Why is their such hatred for Pakistan in India?
    How widespread is this hatred?
    What do moderate Indians think of people like justforfun?
    Do they condemn, ignore or tolerate these views?”

    Mate, you really need to address these questions to people who actually live in India. I think there are websites like Sulekha (and numerous others) around which are dominated by people actually living in the subcontinent.

    Pickled Politics is the wrong audience for all this and always has been.

  44. Vikrant Singh — on 29th September, 2006 at 3:50 pm  

    Why is their such hatred for Pakistan in India?

    Rhetorically Why is there such hatred for India in Pakistan?

    How widespread is this hatred?

    As long as Pakistan supported jehadis continue to kill, maim us in our buses,trains,temples,mosques,townsquares there will be hatred against Pakistan. And that is understandable.

    What do moderate Indians think of people like justforfun?

    To be frank his opinions will be endorsed my a large number of India. Similarly i do think, Pakistanis feel the same about India.

    Do they condemn, ignore or tolerate these views?

    Just as you tolerate use of your country’s resources to finance and organise “The Jehad of Thousand Cuts”, such views are tolerated by vast majority.

    DO YOU RECOGNISE PAKISTANS RIGHT TO EXIST?

    Ofocurse we do stupid. Do you think we are in a timewrap? Heck it was Savarkar who proposed the partition first.

  45. Vikrant Singh — on 29th September, 2006 at 3:54 pm  

    Now let me ask you a few honest q’s

    Why do Pakistanis tolerate Islamist Jihadist organisations that specifically target Indians esp. Hindus?

    Does average Pakistani realise that his ancestors were probably same as mine?

    Why do Pakistanis insist on falsifying Arab/Persian lineage, why are they so ashamed of their Indian heritage?

  46. Anas — on 29th September, 2006 at 3:55 pm  

    At the time presidential candidate Bush was widely castigated. Not only could he not name the Pakistani general, he was endorsing the military takeover of a democratic government.

    Well, the US has been doing that since WW2, especially in S. America, a lot of the time providing active military support. Apparently, US support for Pakistan throughout its the period of its bloody and murderous actions against Bangladesh is known as the “Pakistan tilt” . It’s just one of a large number of instances when the US has actively supported largescale massacres of innocent civilians across the world during the last 50-60 years.

  47. Vikrant Singh — on 29th September, 2006 at 4:01 pm  

    You will be changed, and hopefully you will have alot to contibute without making silly statements about the level of descrimination against Dalits in India.

    In my defense i can only say that the Maharashtrian India i’ve been exposed to most, is *nearly* free from caste prejudices. Or may be it is the way since Dalits make up only about 5% of this state’s population. Maratha Empire was first to employ Dalit soldiers. Maratha state of Kolhapur was first to abolish untouchability (way back in 1840′s)… I’ll be going to Rajasthan this Diwali hopefully i’ll be able to see how Dalits in North India fare as opposed to Western India.

  48. justforfun — on 29th September, 2006 at 4:12 pm  

    No worries – Vikrant – you have alot to see , and I am jealous, very jealous.

    Aghh – I just went to look for my canvas rucksack in my loft with all my trekking stuff- I can’t find my rubber soled green canvas army boots. I’ve kept them for twenty three years and now my wife must have thrown them out. They were a gift from a BSF guy who gave me a lift in Kashmir – hey one could hitch hike then out in the middle of nowhere and get a lift of whoever stopped. Things change – thats the sad part..

    I digress – Just keep an open mind and look to the future, the past glories of ancestors are not past down in ones genes.

    Justforfun

  49. Chris Stiles — on 29th September, 2006 at 5:08 pm  

    justforfun –

    That it is feasible for the US to bomb Pakistan is obvious, and if a threat had been made that is exactly the form it would have taken, bombing on the Serbian model.

    The point Alex makes is somewhat different – bombing Pakistan would have lead to possible disintegration and maybe talibanisation of parts of it. That’s the sort of failed state scenario in which terrorists can hide – and whatever you may think of the present US administration, that is one thing of which they are very well aware.

  50. Sid — on 29th September, 2006 at 5:15 pm  

    That’s the sort of failed state scenario in which terrorists can hide – and whatever you may think of the present US administration, that is one thing of which they are very well aware.

    Shame such acuity didn’t surface prior to Iraq.

  51. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 5:53 pm  

    “Pickled Politics is the wrong audience for all this and always has been”

    Jai,

    if people like justforfun are going to articulate such shocking views on Pickled Politics, they are going to be called to account. What is your opinion about justforfuns wish to see Pakistan dismantled?

  52. justforfun — on 29th September, 2006 at 6:31 pm  

    Chris I take your point, but ‘maybe’ is the word. It also assumes that failed states will emerge from the break up. If there were ground troops I am sure that is the case, but perhaps people inside Pakistan think that the constituant parts of Pakistan can make a go of it on their own after a coup d’etat and oodles of dollars to re-define and re-invigorate the area. Of course that plan will never work because the US will not spend oodles of dollars to re-build countries, unless there is a chance that it can make oodles of dollars back again, and unfortunately Pakistan has nothing that that would entice the Americans to act at present. Things have to get alot wors, I fear before the USA switches tack and stops proping up the military in Pakistan and providing them with moral succour.

    I have no idea either way , but I cling to the idea that most people world wide just want to get on with improving their lives without religion being dragged into it. However in Pakistan I believe the military and the religious parties are in a symbiotic relationship that allows each other to define and sustain themselves by the actions of the other – nice double act. I understand why this idea might be dangerous for some who think of Pakistan as a sacrosanct single Islamic entity. I think this mental burden of having to live up to this religious standard is at the root of alot of the problems in the area. Since Terry Thomas, Pakistanis cannot just be Pakistanis but have to be Islamic Pakistanis. Perhaps some in Pakistan are just fed up with this and want out. Pakistan is after all like India, a product of colonial map drawing and like India will only survive if it can convince its constituents that they all have a better future inside a state rather than on their own. Bangladesh made that choice 35 years ago, but not for religious grounds but just plain good old fashion – kick out the oppressors, and some will make the choice again if people like Raz just block their ears and close their eyes. Its realpolic about where the limits of US power extend and what the US thinks it can acheive when they are faced with choices. So the rantings of Raz against my obvious blasphemy is quite laughable. I have re-read my post and all I seem to ask is that the people of Pakistan realise that perhaps being in a perpetual miltary dictatorship is not the way to try and better onesself. But then what do I care – I don’t have to live there. However the people of Pakistan will be faced with a choice soon, if they don’t get a grip of themselves and sort out their religious and miltary leaders, but ooo that might be Un-islamic – no its not! – its seeing where the car is going and turning away from the abyss, or it just the fantasy of a Hindutva fanatic – perhaps if I was a Hinu and fanatic, but am I being irrational in thinking there is dwindling patience in the US and elsewhere with current policy on Pakistan? The US might just not be bothered in supporting a state called Pakistan in a few years time.

    Justforfun

  53. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 6:38 pm  

    Disgraceful. You have to fear for the future of the subcontinent with hatemongers like justforfun around. The battle for the future of India is at hand. Will it be the moderation of the Sunny Hundals of this world which wins out, or the racism, bigotry and hatred of justforfun? Only time will tell….

  54. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 6:41 pm  

    Even 60 years after partition, people like justforfun cannot accept the reality of an independent Pakistan. Shameful.

  55. Vikrant Singh — on 29th September, 2006 at 6:53 pm  

    if people like justforfun are going to articulate such shocking views on Pickled Politics, they are going to be called to account.

    Raz, when was the last anyone ever called you to account your bizarre comments about India and Indians in general?

  56. raz — on 29th September, 2006 at 8:12 pm  

    First of all I’m not calling for India to be destroyed. Secondly, Indians have been whining about me on PP ever since I first started posting on here. I’m sure they would all like a Septic Mutation style 100% Indian zone on here, but tough shit. Amazing how even the presence of one Pakistani can cause such outrage.

  57. Vikrant Singh — on 29th September, 2006 at 8:22 pm  

    whine all you like raz…

  58. Zak — on 29th September, 2006 at 8:49 pm  

    I personally think writing a book while in office is in poor taste.More importantly the most important part of the book on Mush is the final chapter and that i will imagine be a very different tale.

    Still his media campaign has been a hit in the US, one may not agree with him or his view of the world, but that probably feeds sales of the book even more ..(something for the more rabid pak bashers to ponder)

  59. g — on 29th September, 2006 at 9:13 pm  

    as per usual a thread about pakistan descends into pak bashing. if these same things were said about india, no doubt everyone would have been banned now

  60. Sunny — on 30th September, 2006 at 1:21 am  

    no doubt everyone would have been banned now

    God, can people stop whining? There have been plenty of India bashing threads, some by me. I generally try and allow people their freedom of speech unless they turn racist, xenophobic or start typing out lots of expletives. Accusing me of bias like a spoilt kid does not make me sympathetic to your cause.

  61. DAtley — on 30th September, 2006 at 7:23 am  

    Invading pakistan was implausible….
    Dude I live in US, and i would tell you in that all accross my dem leaning state, people would have applauded
    if a nuke was hurled ove kapistan or akpistan(Mr hitchens…;-) ).
    Beleive me with a dems in city council, school board,
    rotary club to all the way to governiship, every one
    was PISSED that nothing was being done about
    Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.
    The number of non brown folks(ie blacks/chinese/hispanics/whites) who after having learned that i was a kafir, told me that the root source of terrorism is Saudi Arabia and we arent doing much about it was practicaly universal, and NO one blamed it on the Republicans…But a Geopolitical reality in the short run.

  62. Chris Stiles — on 30th September, 2006 at 10:49 am  

    Sid –


    Shame such acuity didn’t surface prior to Iraq.

    With the Taliban next door and the North West Frontier in a permanently low state of revolt, even the mouth breathers in the White House could see which way the wind would blow in Afghanistan. Fact, it’s how they justified supporting Musharraf at that point in time.

    Iraq was the triumph of hope and veniality over experience.

  63. Kismet Hardy — on 30th September, 2006 at 12:45 pm  

    A happy poem anyone?

  64. Chris Stiles — on 30th September, 2006 at 1:19 pm  

    “next to of course god america i
    love you land of the pilgrims’ and so forth oh
    say can you see by the dawn’s early my
    country ’tis of centuries come and go
    and are no more what of it we should worry
    in every language even deafanddumb
    thy sons acclaim your glorious name by gorry
    by jingo by gee by gosh by gum
    why talk of beauty what could be more beaut-
    iful than these heroic happy dead
    who rushed like lions to the roaring slaughter
    they did not stop to think they died instead
    then shall the voice of liberty be mute?”

    He spoke. And drank rapidly a glass of water

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