“ I didn’t really read it like that.”

I think you have the nub of the issue here on two fronts.

On one front, I am seeing it from the perspective of an immigrant background – whose family & wider ‘immigrant’ network went through the economic immigration but succeeded despite the racism. Therefore when an article talks about it being as ‘better’ – one wonders for whom and if the issues were even recognised then and if indeed now. I can see that non immigrants may not relate or read it on the same level. Which is partly why I said it.

On the second front, it comes down to those who do not identify themselves as racist but buy into certain aspects of far right ideas without considering that their support, even if on selected issues dear to their hearts, means support of the whole organisation and therefore ‘unwitting’ support of the other more nefarious aspects. For eg the BNP appeal to those who want action on immigration but for some reason cannot see or recognise the apartheid/more extreme race ramifications.

As to whether the section of non racist supportors who after looking into the whole ideology more fully changed their perspective is another issue entirely. I would like to think that more insight & understanding of the whole would bring a contingent out of such support.

As for ‘cavemen, Sun reading EDL types’ …. in which countries are people like that not to be found?
I can’t really think of any.

You’re absolutely right. The problem lies with taking what they say seriously. I mean do they even have the faculties to form a balanced perspective? Their reading habits (or lack of) indicate no.

And persephone – I get the ‘early nazi’ thing …. and will get duly alarmed when I think they pose a serious threat. But I can’t be having anything to do with people like this right now – maybe later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yrn93zOW2cs

As for the rest of your post @70 persephone … gosh.
I didn’t really read it like that.

For example in this line you say: ‘-Immigrants cannot offer social benefits – quite insulting don’t you think to write off all immigrants?’

The writer of that article was certainly not implying that. It’s really not that much about ”the immigrants” themselves but in how they have been spoken about and how any debate is conducted and how it is couched.

Maybe I am just a contrarian, but I like to read things like this following paragraph from that article.

”For today it is often those who present themselves as ‘pro-immigration’ who are the least progressive, expressing a profound cultural snobbery and adopting the immigrant as a cover for their own lack of attachment to a political vision or moral values. And often, those who seem ostensibly ‘anti-immigration’ – for example, some working-class voters who express discomfort with the arrival of people from abroad – are expressing an understandable, if misplaced, agitation with the values of the cosmopolitan elite. When immigration is increased without any public debate about why it is being done, when old-style British values are judged to be inferior to new cultures from overseas, and when immigrants are continually held up as better beings than Britain’s native working classes, is it really surprising that some people ask awkward questions about immigration?”

I think annoyance towards media hate figures like ”Captain Hook” and Abu Qatada – who was pictured out on bail still wearing a tag, runs quite wide and deep. There’s Sun and Daily Mail reading members of my family who tut when they see pictures like this.

I’m sure many Muslims (and others) feel the same way when seeing pictures of Tony Blair with that idiotic Cheshire cat grin on his face in the papers, making a bid for the European presidency for instance? Running around Scot free obstinately defending the indefensible.

I agree with your sentence that says ‘EDL is a militant group fueled by bigotry against Muslims and possibly against South Asians in general’.

I think annoyance towards media hate figures like ”Captain Hook” and Abu Qatada – who was pictured out on bail still wearing a tag, runs quite wide and deep. There’s Sun and Daily Mail reading members of my family who tut when they see pictures like this.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/07/10/article-1033882-01E692EE00000578-318_233x644_popup.jpg

The EDL might have some similarities with early nazis in Germany …. but I still cant stand UAF.
I don’t call them thuggish at all (like the EDL who are), but they are just too SWP like for me, and I can’t stand them either.

persephone, I see your last post. I’ll read it properly in a minute.

It’s more than just extremist muslims they don’t like I’m sure, but much of the muslim community in general. That’s why they sing ”we want our country back”.

I’m sure they’d be marching through any predominant Sikh areas singing the same thing. What I think they really want to say is “we want our country back….to being white everywhere.”

If the elite now expresses its discomfort with Old Britain through the immigration issue, it also expresses its disdain for the lower orders through it, too.

So again, why blame the migrants or Muslims for what is essentially a problem between Anglo-Saxons of differing classes? To me it just reinforces what lowlife scum these types are in that despite their loud, provocative marching, they completely lack the bollocks to square up to their ruling classes, in the presence of whom they lose all voice and swagger, like the conditioned cowed down scum they are. Maybe the ruling classes have good reason to disdain?

In anycase, if you think those cavemen, Sun reading EDL types (as seen in the Manchester vid you posted) are capable of producing and implementing a half decent economic policy for Britain, let them try and see how quickly this island becomes a basket case.

I can see your point in that, so called ‘islamicists’ are not prevalent in positions of power to make the decisions & plans that affect them. Its funny how a group that has minimal representation is seen as the cause of so much. Thats taking the mick.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Islamicistism (whetever it is called these days?!), is a problem, but blaming every last problem in the country on that gives a real insight into the ‘advanced’ thought processes going on behind the EDL scene.

I think the UAF are approaching the problem the right way myself.

I read the link to that long article and it comes from a place I mentioned earlier:

“The early propaganda & targeting by the Nazis show similarities with far right groups now. Early nazi’s pitched themselves as the “workers’ party”, on the side of labour, against finance/capitalism, against liberal politics, indigenous customs & rituals were heavily highlighted as was nationalism per se and they accused populaces they considered ‘non-German’ of possessing extra-national loyalties to name a few.”

———————————————————————–

Looking at that article, it states that the first wave of immigration was for economic reasons and so deemed justified. However, the elders in my family & circle came in that wave but were still not wanted in the UK & faced a lot of racism, inequality but I see the article endorses that wave. The article says that the second wave of labour induced immigration was for social benefits (therefore not as feasible as the prior economic wave) and breaks with/is a direct criticism of british culture – earlier british culture. I have a few issues with that, for starters:

-Immigration for economic reasons is ok (inherently this means we have to put with racism & inequality to allow the british to benefit financially).

-Immigrants cannot offer social benefits – quite insulting don’t you think to write off all immigrants?

-Reversion to earlier british culture – the imperialist culture? (I say this because immigration for economic reason regardless of how immigrants suffer points to old imperialism). But imperialism is now seen as morally, socially exploitative and corrupt. So does going back to earlier britsh times mean imperialism?

If reversion to an earlier British culture is the way forward then all things not attuned to it need to be removed to retain the purity of early british culture –which must include globalisation. But the article does not cover the practical reality.

It gives no answers.

How can a section of the populace buy into an argument without answers? Unless their fear (racism?) is so irrational that all rationality flies out of the window.

I’m not agreeing with UAF tactics but that it should be recognised that EDL ideology has fledgling roots in the future branches of more subversive far right activity. I see it as a continuum with BNP offering those further up the continuum an outlet (though they too are criticised as having gone soft with things like re-writng membership policy). Some are sensitive to not joining the BNP because they fear being linked as racists & feel EDL offers a softer cushion to couch their (racist!) aims.

I have not met a racist (overt or non overt) who thinks they are racist/nazi.

The EDL/BNP version of ‘lite Nazism’ does not portend a favourable outcome if left unchecked.

The reason why UAF resorts to violence is precisely because they consider EDL and the BNP as nazis. That’s the wrong tactic and it backfires with the public.

Or at least particularly islamophobic.
It’s more than just extremist muslims they don’t like I’m sure, but much of the muslim community in general.
That’s why they sing ”we want our country back”.

I don’t really know what to comment about this Spiked article I’ve just read – other than to say I found it very interesting.
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/8335/

The reason I don’t like UAF is that they would probably dismiss that as ‘right wing’.

Whatever you might think of it, this following bit is something I was trying to get across the other day when I said that the EDL’s class might have something for the disdain that is heaped upon them, not just their stupid ideas.

If the elite now expresses its discomfort with Old Britain through the immigration issue, it also expresses its disdain for the lower orders through it, too. In many ways a perfect issue for a fundamentally middle-class party like New Labour, the ‘pro-immigration’ stance allows the contemporary elite both to distance itself from the traditional elites of the past and from the working classes of today, from the old order and from the new masses. For decades, the British elite used the politics of racism as a way of keeping the working classes in their place, ratcheting up immigration fears and racial tensions in an effort to win native workers’ loyalty. Now it uses the official politics of ‘anti-racism’ and ‘pro-immigration’ to do a similar job. One of the most effective ways in which the working classes are policed today is through the monitoring of their allegedly problematic attitudes to immigration and their failure to embrace the apparently superior cosmopolitan values of their rulers.

I can see your point in that, so called ‘islamicists’ are not prevalent in positions of power to make the decisions & plans that affect them. Its funny how a group that has minimal representation is seen as the cause of so much. Thats taking the mick.

Perhaps then the approach would be around that if they believe this EDL stuff, that in reality, it is the far right taking the mick.

More than that, their own ruling classes are taking the piss out of them too. But in all of this they only seem to be able to identify Islamists as a problem without admitting that leadership from the very community the purport to be defending (judging by their name) is as guilty of causing negativity, instability and general death and destruction all over the globe through stupid military/political decisions.

Damon describes them as typical Sun readers. Anyone who forms views based on that publication is suspect in my opinion. I doubt their reading enables them to grapple any complex, knotty issues anyway, which explains a lot.

Perhaps then the approach would be around that if they believe this EDL stuff, that in reality, it is the far right taking the mick.Revealing the truth on sites such as PP is part of that unmasking.

But Damon, seeing as you mentioned religious leadership & mosques on a EDL thread,I would be more convinced of there not being a racist underpinning to the EDL if they likewise took on,by way of example, the Catholic Church – marching against the Pope making a visit for example as that is a religion that is taking the mick & has leaders with grave problems. Somehow I don’t think they will see it as part of their cause.

They should be undermined some way or another – though how to so I’m not sure. Maybe putting off people having anything to do with them in the way that UAF does is a way of curtailing them. As is perhaps, the way the police are dealing with them, meeting them in riot gear right from the start and with dogs and kettling them.
So only a robust football hooligan type person will want to turn up at something like that.

They don’t see themselves as fascists and nazis, and as we have seen, they are often posing for the cameras burning swastika flags they have brought along for the purpose of showing that they are not ”nazis”.

In their simple way of viewing the world they seem to think that someone is taking the mick. And have decided that the muslim community is allowing extremism to florish within it.
And you don’t have to agree with the Harry’s Place view on things to except that there are some things not quite right.(Or ideal anyway)

So that’s why I mentioned friday prayers in Dublin last week. Of all the things a sermon in Ireland could be about, why bang on about ”the plot” to destroy Al Aqsa mosque and rebuild the Jewish temple on its foundations? To me it showed that perhaps their is a problem with leadership in some muslim institutions.

As I have said before, Dublin’s other big mosque is also the headquaters of the European Council for Fatwa and Research – which is headed by Yusuf al-Qaradawi.
And from the sound of it, is completely reactionary.

So knowing that, and listening to that ridiculous sermon on friday, and having read a story about extremism amongst some leading Irish muslims ….
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jan/14/religion.ireland
…… then I’m not really so surprised that there would not be a rather ignorant backlash against this percieved internal threat that mocks (in their eyes) their country and communities.

Because that’s what I think the EDL’s gripe is. They think the P is being taken out of them, and there’s nothing people of that type hate more than having the mick taken out of them.

The EDL dont want part of England to become like Northern Cyprus. simple!

What’s going on in Northern Cyprus then?

Why would we wait until it gets to that stage? Experience shows it is a stepping stone.

The early propaganda & targeting by the Nazis show similarities with far right groups now. Early nazi’s pitched themselves as the “workers’ party”, on the side of labour, against finance/capitalism, against liberal politics, indigenous customs & rituals were heavily highlighted as was nationalism per se and they accused populaces they considered ‘non-German’ of possessing extra-national loyalties to name a few.

The EDL/BNP version of ‘lite Nazism’ does not portend a favourable outcome if left unchecked.

I can see the linkage to nazism because the same bullying tactics towards a group were used by them

In my view, the risk of comparing X to nazis is that one has to ensure that X were as vicious psychotic mass murderers as the nazis were. Bullying is certainly not the nazis worst offense. Which is why it is best to leave them out of most arguments.

The difference is that not all WWC use the EDL to complain about anything they may have missed out on in life. And even those WWC who are jobless, some see shame in that & not as a lifestyle choice.

I think the common underlying theme of this is blaming others, normally more vulnerable/more fashionable or topical to blame at the time – regardless of whether you are a dustbin man, track suited, jobless. Its not the mere fact of being associated to being from WWC/ underclass. Thats why the edl & bnp are disliked.

I can see the linkage to nazism because the same bullying tactics towards a group were used by them. If EDL & the like want to change the perception about them then they should go about things in a diffrent way. But like bullies, they have an underlying weakness that prevents them from doing so.

Maybe the EDL people in Manchester can be further defined as more to the underclass – but I bet many of them work in mainstream working class jobs too.
They are your dustbin man and plumber, postman and guy who works at the tyre and exhaust garage.
That’s why I find the UAF chant of ‘Nazi scum off our streets” to be a bit lame.

Sunny seems to support UAF overall – so that’s a bit of a difference of opinion there.