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  • Technorati: graph / links

    ‘Muslims are contemptible creatures, devalued humans’


    by earwicga on 9th March, 2010 at 1:47 PM    

    The Independent today carries a very strongly worded opinion piece by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown - a self confessed ‘Muslim lite’.  In a piece well worth reading Alibhai-Brown writes about state sanctioned Islamophobia including the sentencing of young Muslims demonstrators:

    Meanwhile at Isleworth Crown Court, Judge John Denniss is industriously sentencing demonstrators who gathered near the Israeli embassy to rail against that state’s attack on Gaza, one of the worst acts of state terrorism in recent history. Our government said nothing then, and were therefore complicit. Protesters came from all backgrounds but the vast majority of those arrested were young Muslim men. Dozens are being sent down for insignificant acts of bravado. Some were about to go to university, to train as dentists and the like. Their homes were raided, families cowed and terrified. Joanna Gilmore, an academic expert on public demonstrations, says never before have such disproportionate sentences been handed out, not even with the volatile anti-globalisation protests. Denniss intends his punishments to be a deterrent. To deter us from what? Having the temerity to believe we live in a democracy and are free to march? [H/T Ten Percent]

    Seumas Milne has previously written the following in a piece for the Guardian:

    But a year later [to the demos], it turns out that it’s the sentences that are truly exceptional. Of 119 people arrested, 78 have been charged, all but two of them young ­Muslims (most between the ages of 16 and 19), according to Manchester University’s Joanna Gilmore, even though such figures in no way reflect the mix of those who took part. In the past few weeks, 15 have been convicted, mostly of violent disorder, and jailed for between eight months and two-and-a-half years – ­having switched to guilty pleas to avoid heavier terms. Another nine are up to be sentenced tomorrow.

    The severity of the charges and sentencing goes far beyond the official response to any other recent anti-war demonstration, or even the violent stop the City protests a decade ago. So do the arrests, many of them carried out months after the event in dawn raids by dozens of police officers, who smashed down doors and handcuffed family members as if they were suspected terrorists. Naturally, none of the more than 30 complaints about police ­violence were upheld, even where video ­evidence was available.

    Last month’s British Social Attitudes survey found that most people now regard Britain as “deeply divided along religious lines”, with hostility to Muslims and Islam far outstripping such attitudes to any other religious group. On the ground that has translated into murders, assaults and attacks on mosques and Muslim institutions – with shamefully little response in politics or the media. Last year, five mosques in Britain were firebombed, from Bishop’s Stortford to Cradley Heath, though barely reported in the national press, let alone visited by a government minister to show solidarity. [My emphasis]

    This is not a form of democracy I recognise, but it is the one we are holding up for emulation to the countries we invade and occupy such as Afghanistan and Iraq.  Anybody see the obvious problem?


         
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    1. cjcjc — on 9th March, 2010 at 2:29 PM  

      How very dare we lock up violent protesters.

    2. earwicga — on 9th March, 2010 at 2:31 PM  

      Obviously cjcjc you are referring to this part of the post:

      ‘Naturally, none of the more than 30 complaints about police ­violence were upheld, even where video ­evidence was available.’

    3. JuliaM — on 9th March, 2010 at 2:56 PM  

      No, he’s not. He’s referring to the rioters who were (correctly) sentenced for violent disorder, not for ‘peacefully protesting’.

      The only person in the country who could legitimately have a beef against the government for criminalising peaceful protest is the lady arrested for Reading out the names of the war dead too close to Westminster.

      Yasmin is a foolish hysteric, and there’s no proof that any of the people she claims expressed those ‘fears’ to her even exist…

    4. earwicga — on 9th March, 2010 at 3:06 PM  

      Yep JuliaM - foolish hysteric. Are Joanna Gilmore and Seumas Milne foolish hysterics too? I think your condemnation blinds you to the facts.

    5. Lucy — on 9th March, 2010 at 3:40 PM  

      In light of what they were protesting about, some may wish to note that according to the Goldstone Report “the international community has been largely silent and has…failed to act to ensure the protection of the civilian population in the Gaza Strip and generally the Occupied Palestinian Territory. Suffice it to notice the lack of adequate reaction to the blockade and its consequences, to the Gaza military operations and, in their aftermath, to the continuing obstacles for reconstruction’.”

      also

      “On January 28th 2010, New Profile, a feminist movement working to demilitarize society and state in Israel, dispatched a letter to a list of top U.N. officials urging the U.N. General Assembly and the U.N. Security Council to intervene to ensure implementation of the recommendations made by the U.N. Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict.”
      http://www.newprofile.org/english/?p=266

      Tomorrow, 10 March 2010, European MEPs will be discussing their attitude towards the Goldstone Report.
      http://www.creative-i.info/2010/03/08/urgent-meps-to-discuss-goldstone-report-on-10-march-please-email-your-members-of-european-parliament/

      ===================================
      Regarding the sentences handed down at the Gaza protest:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/05/gaza-protest-harsh-jail-terms
      “Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer has tabled parliamentary questions about the policing of the event and the subsequent sentences.

      She said: “There were a disproportionate number of people arrested and disproportionately severe sentences. I think people’s right to protest should be recognised by the courts and I think they have not caught up with what is a new attitude to legitimate protest.”

    6. JuliaM — on 9th March, 2010 at 4:14 PM  

      Suemas Milne isn’t a hysteric, no, but he’s not above USING hysterics like Joanna and poor, deluded Yasmin to further his cause…

    7. damon — on 9th March, 2010 at 4:15 PM  

      I don’t have that much sympathy here.
      Exceptional sentencing? Well it might seem harsh, but public disorder …. in smashing up a place like Starbucks - or pelting the police with stones and bottles on a demonstration such as this should result in a few months behind bars IMO.

      But please note, throwing some shoes, or the flimsy placards or empty plastic water and soft drink bottles should not be treated harshly.

      Throw bricks - prison. Throwing stuff that can cause serious injury is something that should be punished harshly.

      I was on that demonstration myself, and got stuck inside the barriers the police had put out to channel the flow of people. It was very frustrating to be stuck there for half an hour while I presume the young people who got arrested were smashing and throwing stuff up ahead.

      But it’s not really ”anti muslim” like YAB says.

      Those rioters in Bradford deserved to be sent down for a time. They’re all out now, and they have paid the price of rioting in Bradford that day …. which was unnesssary. And bordered on being an anti-white local pogrom - what with the Labour Club social club burned down, and a pub in which drinkers were told to get out quick as it was about to be burned - and it was.
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1428673.stm

    8. JuliaM — on 9th March, 2010 at 4:16 PM  

      Once again, Lucy, they were NOT sentenced for ‘protesting’ but for violence.

      Only one person has ever been arrested for peaceful protest and nothing else, and she wasn’t a Muslim…

    9. earwicga — on 9th March, 2010 at 4:18 PM  

      Thanks for the links Lucy.

      Contrary to what cjcjc has stated above, it is the ‘disproportionate number of people arrested and disproportionately severe sentences’ that is the cause for concern. Especially in the light of the other points Alibhai-Brown and Milne note.

      More context from Craig Murray: http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2010/03/muslims_found_i.html

    10. earwicga — on 9th March, 2010 at 4:25 PM  

      JuliaM
      ‘Only one person has ever been arrested for peaceful protest and nothing else, and she wasn’t a Muslim…’

      That’s a lovely sentiment. I guess Ezra Nawi was arrested for wearing a hat.

    11. Boyo — on 9th March, 2010 at 5:13 PM  

      It’s not really journalism though if they don’t demonstrate inequality of sentencing it’s just polemic. Demonstrate inequality and i’m quite happy to believe it, but it’s not good enough to insinuate muslims are being persecuted simply by drawing attention to muslim rioters!

      Actually i think it inadvertently feeds islamophobia.

      It’s also utterly cynical to compare public attitudes surveys to firebombing mosques. How about i compare attacks on Jews and Gays to Muslim attitudes?

      Certainly Milne is one of the best allies the BNP has.

    12. earwicga — on 9th March, 2010 at 5:19 PM  

      Boyo
      I accept your point about demonstrating inequality by the use of numbers. I would think Joanna Gilmore has done this but I haven’t found an internet source so can’t help you there. Anyone have any figures?

      ‘Actually i think it inadvertently feeds islamophobia.’
      How so?

      ‘How about i compare attacks on Jews and Gays to Muslim attitudes?’
      Please feel free to do so, with facts and figures.

    13. cjcjc — on 9th March, 2010 at 5:19 PM  

      Certainly Milne is one of the best allies the BNP has.

      Indeed he is.

      I don’t think he has met a terrorist he didn’t like.

    14. earwicga — on 9th March, 2010 at 5:22 PM  

      cjcjc

      How about Tony Blair? Or have they never met?

    15. cjcjc — on 9th March, 2010 at 5:32 PM  

      http://sheepdogsandwolves.blogspot.com/2009/01/so-who-started-it.html

      What a lovely crowd.

    16. Don — on 9th March, 2010 at 6:00 PM  

      @#20

      How is Ezra Nawi relevant to this topic?

    17. earwicga — on 9th March, 2010 at 6:12 PM  

      cjcjc - do you have permission to post the section of post you have above? I ask this with reference to the statement ‘Everything on this blog is Copyright, if you wish to use any of it then please ask me first, thanks!’ on Sheepdogs & Wolves.

      Don - Ezra Nawi was arrested for protesting. And A B C are the first three letters of the alphabet.

    18. Don — on 9th March, 2010 at 6:23 PM  

      earwicga

      Yes, I know. In Israel. This topic is about UK courts.

      And A B C are the first three letters of the alphabet.

      Not the Hebrew alphabet. So could you explain how it is relevant instead of juvenile snark?

    19. cjcjc — on 9th March, 2010 at 6:25 PM  

      I think you’ll find that everything on the Guardian and Indy website is copyright too…

      Any chance of commenting on the substance of the post from which I quoted?

    20. Katy Newton — on 9th March, 2010 at 6:39 PM  

      cjcjc – do you have permission to post the section of post you have above? I ask this with reference to the statement ‘Everything on this blog is Copyright, if you wish to use any of it then please ask me first, thanks!’ on Sheepdogs & Wolves

      Fair use, I think you’ll find. cjcjc is quoting part of what you’ve said elsewhere in the context of intellectual argument, not stealing it to pass it off as his own (he linked to the original, too, which may boost your traffic). That’s also why the Graun won’t sue you for quoting their content in this blogpost and on your own blog. It’s good to engage brain before keyboard sometimes.

      PS: you lose a lot of credibility by resorting to copyright in answer to a commenter on one of your posts here quoting something you’ve said on the same topic elsewhere.

    21. Katy Newton — on 9th March, 2010 at 6:41 PM  

      Are Joanna Gilmore and Seumas Milne foolish hysterics too? I think your condemnation blinds you to the facts.

      I actually had a lot of sympathy with YAB’s article. There is similar fear in the Jewish community and I have heard much the same sort of sentiment in that context. But it’s not a factual article. I don’t think it’s really on to quote other people’s op-eds in the Graun and then accuse your commenters of being blind to facts or not quoting enough figures.

    22. sonia — on 9th March, 2010 at 6:44 PM  

      yes fair use let’s not get so antsy - if people couldn’t quote bits of blog then there’s not much point to the discussion.

      I’m getting a bit tired of having to read all the links to see where the title has been drawn from - who said that Muslims are contemptible creatures?

      Its very annoying that in general protesting peacefully has become so bloody difficult - its a minefield, and very difficult if the police want to get brutal, to ensure what is going on, who is being arrested for what, and general abuse of authority.

      It also seems pretty clear that young muslim men anywhere are being subject to much higher checks by authority.

      basically if you’re unpopular with the state, its dangerous to go to protests. anarchists know this already. Now young muslim men seem to know it too.

    23. sonia — on 9th March, 2010 at 6:48 PM  

      if Yasmin hadn’t worked out by now that the State doesn’t actually like dissent despite the alleged democracy we live in, where has she been all this time.

      It does remind me of a time when here on Pickled Politics there was someone talking about the police not letting a young white male near a playground or something, and a lot of people couldn’t be bothered about it because there wasn’t a racial angle, and maybe now, people are looking at the religious angle.

      I think we need to have a united approach to civil liberties and not jump up and down only when its ‘our bods’ whose liberties are in question.

    24. Katy Newton — on 9th March, 2010 at 6:50 PM  

      Why yes Sonia I also remember that time of which you speak.

    25. sonia — on 9th March, 2010 at 6:52 PM  

      Earwicga, why don’t YOU tell us what you think the obvious problem is instead of leaving us guessing? I see what Yasmin is saying but what is your wider point exactly, in more detail please - i like your blog, please elaborate a bit more!

      (PP pieces are getting more and more mysterious -lots of links to news stories out there, but more actual writing, would be interesting.)

    26. sonia — on 9th March, 2010 at 6:55 PM  

      Ah yes Katy :-)

      Thing is - a lot of people didn’t really care what happened to protesters cos they were seen to be middle-class/upper-class students with time to waste, hippie anarchists.

      Now we’re seeing that the State will crush dissent where it sees it, and they’re Muslims, of course some bod will go on about it. Point is, whether they’re Muslims or young hippies, this sort of thing has been going on for TOO long.

    27. sonia — on 9th March, 2010 at 7:04 PM  

      Actually i’d say the real problem is what happens in terms of sentencing for young people who have been caught involved with terrorist activity, who were nabbed before they actually did anything. ( i have been watching Generation Jihad which is very interesting).

      the tricky question there is about how you decide a fair sentence. in general if you bung people into prison, they come out pissed off. this is the problem. on the other hand, what do you do given these are young people who have made mistakes while they are young, how can we rehabilitate them>?

    28. Boyo — on 9th March, 2010 at 8:04 PM  

      @ 27 broadly speaking the “problem” i think with generation jihad is e-globalisation. We forget how quickly it has happened (10-15 years) and the inability for society to respond flexibly to change.

    29. earwicga — on 9th March, 2010 at 8:43 PM  

      @ Shatterface - apologies for the delay in deleting the offensive comments and banning their authors. I am giving my children a birthday party and will respond to the other comments asking me questions later.

    30. Don — on 9th March, 2010 at 9:03 PM  

      Happy bairn’s birthday.

    31. sonia — on 9th March, 2010 at 9:32 PM  

      what fun - enjoy the party!

    32. Shatterface — on 9th March, 2010 at 10:52 PM  

      ‘@ Shatterface – apologies for the delay in deleting the offensive comments and banning their authors. I am giving my children a birthday party and will respond to the other comments asking me questions later.’

      Thanks. I’m all for free speech but some of the comments we’ve seen in the last few days are not merely racist but threatening.

    33. Yakoub — on 10th March, 2010 at 5:49 AM  

      Shame YAB begins her piece by YET AGAIN insulting Orthodox Muslims, calling them “bovine”. It’s hard not to see her Indy blogs in general as part of the prevailing negative discourse about Muslims, and as such, a contributor to the problem she berates.

    34. platinum786 — on 10th March, 2010 at 8:50 AM  

      Whether the issue is entirely accurate from a factual prespective or not, this is how the vast majority of Muslims FEEL. We feel like we’re treated as third class citizens. The points mentioned by YAB, a very obnoxious woman i might add, are spot on.

      I have family who are taxi drivers, they see collegaues get attacked by drunks have their vehicles damaged, it doesn’t even get as far as sentencing as the criminal was drunk (it’s not like the cabbies slipped them drink is it). They see people fighting who are put in the back of a van and release the next mornign, scot free. We here of cases week in week out where similar crime isgnored and treated with “abso’s” and suspended sentences.

      Fact is if some chav white kids had thrown some bottles and kicked some doors or whatever, they’d have got a slap on the wrist. If your a Muslim, you get a prison sentence.

      We see injustice against us every day. We here it in the media. Officialdom treat us like like lepers like a problem, there is the “muslim community needs to do more” regarding terrorism, like you all assume we just see guys building scuicide vests and avert our gaze. We’re always under suspicion, we’re treated like we’re criminals.

      You can tell us as much as you like that it’s not true, but that is how we feel, that is what the experiences of our lives day in day out lead us to beleive. It’s our reality, if you think we’re wrong, walk a miles in our shoes.

    35. cjcjc — on 10th March, 2010 at 8:54 AM  

      Well what are the facts?

      If the facts don’t back up your feelings, then no-one can help you, can they?

    36. bananabrain — on 10th March, 2010 at 9:01 AM  

      Fact is if some chav white kids had thrown some bottles and kicked some doors or whatever, they’d have got a slap on the wrist. If your a Muslim, you get a prison sentence.

      and if you’re a jew you don’t do such things at all, but when you complain you are ignored, or dismissed as “scaremongering”, “hysterical”, “trying to shut down debate”, or “trying to divert attention away from the crimes of israel”.

      We see injustice against us every day. We here it in the media. Officialdom treat us like like lepers like a problem, there is the “muslim community needs to do more” regarding terrorism, like you all assume we just see guys building scuicide vests and avert our gaze. We’re always under suspicion, we’re treated like we’re criminals.

      and we are treated as if we are not entitled to have an opinion and as if we all spend our spare time beating up palestinians or sending money to build settlements or finding ways to make the israeli government more right wing or control the discourse in the media and so on and so on. and we’re still not rioting or blowing stuff up, because it’s a stupid thing to do.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    37. Sarah AB — on 10th March, 2010 at 9:23 AM  

      I had already read YAB’s piece - as so often with her articles my reactions lurched around as I read it. I was engaged by the first section but then I thought it went downhill. Boyo, earlier, makes a good point. “It’s not really journalism though if they don’t demonstrate inequality of sentencing it’s just polemic. Demonstrate inequality and i’m quite happy to believe it, but it’s not good enough to insinuate muslims are being persecuted simply by drawing attention to muslim rioters!” I *am* willing to be persuaded that the sentences were unusually harsh - but I need to see the information laid out clearly and dispassionately.

      I think what I don’t like about that section of YAB’s piece is that it invokes the idea of fact and fairness but doesn’t give the details. I have no problem with comment 34 above (by Platinum786) as it’s more explicitly subjective - and I can feel sympathy for that expression of personal experience and feelings.

    38. Katy Newton — on 10th March, 2010 at 9:35 AM  

      @34 is something I can relate to for the reasons I gave above. That sort of fear/feeling is prevalent in the Jewish community too, and I suspect most other minorities to a greater or lesser degree. That’s not to dismiss its importance, you understand - I think it’s really important to acknowledge the fact that people are very frightened, and that minority groups who perhaps ten or twenty years ago would have said that they felt British now really don’t. But part of that has got to be to look at the facts and figures and see if they actually support those fears. I genuinely don’t know the answer to that question because I don’t know where to go for the information.

    39. platinum786 — on 10th March, 2010 at 10:15 AM  

      Can we all agree at least there is no smoke without fire?

      Also the Jewish community feel like that? Really? What kind of problems do you guys have? Your not even mentioned as a minority group in Britain, or at least that’s the perception I get and you seem to be pretty well connected where it matters.

    40. Random Guy — on 10th March, 2010 at 10:41 AM  

      Facts and figures are easy to manipulate, and the place to go for accurate ones are not necessarily going to be forthcoming with these figures. The FACT is that the last 10 years has seen a concerted effort by the mainstream media and nearly all main political parties in the UK/US/Europe to stoke a huge amount of Islamophobia by directly conflating the Muslim Community with Immigration, Terrrorism and any other malaise (lack of culture).

      There are many reasons for this, like greed for another country’s oil, deflecting the public perception so that bigger wrongs can go un-noticed (like the banking system farce or any other government scandal) etc. Also there is just plain old inherent racism.

      I think the biggest factors are the big players in the mainstream media and politics from the last few years (Blair, Bush, Murdoch etc.). It is fairly significant that someone like YAB can come up with an article like this, because she has normally been derided for here qausi-secular/anti-religion rantish posts against the muslim community. I was a bit surprised by her article to be honest.

    41. cjcjc — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:05 AM  

      Also the Jewish community feel like that? Really? What kind of problems do you guys have? Your not even mentioned as a minority group in Britain, or at least that’s the perception I get and you seem to be pretty well connected where it matters.

      Beyond parody.

    42. Kojak — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:10 AM  

      Platinum 786,

      I don’t mean to be cheeky - but have you ever walked by a synagogue when a service is being held? If you have you would have noticed the security guards on the doors.
      If you haven’t I can tell you that we quietly organize the safety of our congregations, without making a song and dance of it, not because we like doing it but, rather, because it is necessary.
      The same cannot be said for churches, mosques, temples places of worship of other faiths.

    43. Sarah AB — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:11 AM  

      Platinum786 - my feelings of friendly sympathy for you are evaporating fast - do you want to rethink your last comment?

    44. Paul Moloney — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:17 AM  

      Whatever the rights and wrongs of this situation, I would choose more reliable people than Seamus “Tankie” Milne and Craig “I Love North Korea” Murray to prop up your argument.

      P.

    45. Random Guy — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:28 AM  

      Platinum’s comment at #38 is entirely within reason. He is not making any attempt to offend, so why not answer his question instead of saying worthless phrases like ‘beyond parody’? The tone of the responses to his question are out of order.

      Kojak @ #41, I don’t mean to be cheeky but your statement about synagogues digresses very very far from the original topic. Platinum’s question is about something else completely.

    46. Katy Newton — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:33 AM  

      Also the Jewish community feel like that? Really? What kind of problems do you guys have? Your not even mentioned as a minority group in Britain, or at least that’s the perception I get and you seem to be pretty well connected where it matters.

      That’s your response? I say “Yes how you and your community feel is valid and I understand it because my community has the same fears and something needs to be done about it” and your response is “Fuck you, you don’t have any problems”?

    47. cjcjc — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:34 AM  

      Right, because although Jews are apparently “not even mentioned as a minority group in Britain” he nonetheless claims that they “seem to be pretty well connected where it matters”.
      (Nudge, nudge…wink,wink…)

      The tone of the responses to his question are out of order.

      Diddums.

    48. Katy Newton — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:34 AM  

      Platinum’s comment at #38 is entirely within reason. He is not making any attempt to offend, so why not answer his question instead of saying worthless phrases like ‘beyond parody’? The tone of the responses to his question are out of order.

      It’s reasonable to say that Jews don’t count as a minority group in this country, is it? The measures that Jews take in terms of community security are well documented. I’ve lost count of the amount of times Jewish commentators have talked about the taunts in the street, the security necessary to protect our schools, the physical attacks, the vandalism, the grave desecration. There was a cross-party parliamentary report which acknowledged and described the rise in antisemitism in this country which has also been linked to here on this site, and yet every time anyone mentions antisemitism people like platinum pop up and say it doesn’t exist.

      It’s astonishing that you sit there and bemoan the lack of recognition of the abuse and prejudice that Muslims face and then do EXACTLY what you are complaining about yourself when a Jew says “I understand, it’s the same for us”. It beggars belief.

    49. Paul Moloney — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:36 AM  

      Sorry, I’m embarrassed - I thought it was Andrew rather than Craig that the OP was referring to. I’ll go spank myself. Carry on.

      P.

    50. platinum786 — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:37 AM  

      Look, I live in a city with an absolutely tiny Jewish community. I don’t know anyone who is Jewish. The only synagogue I know of is in a different city.

      I only ask what problems the Jewish community has because I don’t actually know. I don’t live in London like most people on the internet.

      don’t let past WUM moments by me cloud your judgement, I actually don’t know. Someone did mention security outside a synagogue. I did see security outside one once, I think it was a weekday, at the time I thought it was a bit snobby, like “Why do they need security”, looking back I still have the same basic question.

      This is again going to sound dumb, but are jewish places of worship targetted by other people regularly or are there regular threats against them?

    51. platinum786 — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:39 AM  

      Oh also A guy i know at work, i think is jewish, but i’m not gonna ask, i mean he’ll be all like “why is this Muslim fella suddenly interested?”…

      Also the first time I saw a jewsih person wearing a skull cap was in north London, i travelled down to look at a car i wanted to buy. It was last year i think.

    52. BenSix — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:39 AM  

      Also the Jewish community feel like that? Really? What kind of problems do you guys have? Your not even mentioned as a minority group in Britain, or at least that’s the perception I get and you seem to be pretty well connected where it matters.

      Well, I don’t know - anti-semitic attacks being at their highest in years might have something to do with it.

    53. cjcjc — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:39 AM  

      “CST recorded 924 antisemitic
      incidents in 2009. This is the
      highest annual total since
      it began recording antisemitic
      incidents in 1984, and is 55
      per cent higher than the previous
      record of 598 incidents in 2006.”

      http://www.thecst.org.uk/docs/CST-incidents-report-09-for-web.pdf

    54. Katy Newton — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:40 AM  

      They have security because they get regular death threats and vandalism. The security is community-based and made up of volunteers. People like bb, who are openly orthodox and wear clothing that is recognisable as Jewish, get taunted in the street, as do their kids. There have been a number of physical attacks on Jews, some are documented as hate crimes, some aren’t. Jewish graves are routinely desecrated. It does happen. It’s just not really reported anywhere except locally.

    55. Katy Newton — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:41 AM  

      Oh also A guy i know at work, i think is jewish, but i’m not gonna ask, i mean he’ll be all like “why is this Muslim fella suddenly interested?”…

      I’m not offended when people ask me if I’m Jewish, if that helps.

    56. Katy Newton — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:44 AM  

      I think I might have misread your tone, Platinum, sorry. It’s just that there have been a lot of people on here who’ve disputed that there’s any real problem with antisemitism in this country at all and it never fails to wind me up.

    57. cjcjc — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:47 AM  

      So, platinum, given what you have said about where you live, and that you might know one Jewish person at work, on what basis do Jews “seem to be pretty well connected where it matters”?

    58. platinum786 — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:49 AM  

      Also when I said you were all well connected, i didn’t mean the New World Order consipracy theory kind of way,nor did i mean you’ve all got Mossad on speed dial, I meant that Jewish people have been in the UK a long time, we’ve had Jewish PM’s, Jewish cabinet ministers, a lot of famous people are Jewish, top business people etc.

      I see that as measurements of success for a community, as measurements of acceptance, wealth, publicity, political influence etc. It’s stuff I want for my community. Can you imagine a Muslim PM, I can’t.

      Hence when Katy suggested the Jewish community faced the same thing, it came as news to me.

    59. exposer — on 10th March, 2010 at 11:53 AM  

      Platinum786 knows exactly what he’s saying, he has lots of form for anti-semitism

      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/2691

      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/2611

    60. cjcjc — on 10th March, 2010 at 12:01 PM  

      Ooops - busted!

    61. Katy Newton — on 10th March, 2010 at 12:01 PM  

      I can remember Platinum saying stuff previously that I found offensive, but it seems to me as if this here on this thread is a constructive exchange of information, to be honest. I do think a lot of the problem is that individual communities are mired in their own insecurities and don’t necessarily realise that other outwardly more firmly rooted communities are nursing exactly the same fears. It’s good to share these things, I think.

    62. Sarah AB — on 10th March, 2010 at 12:02 PM  

      Gosh - I was going to (more or less) revert back to friendly sympathy mode - so thanks exposer.

    63. Katy Newton — on 10th March, 2010 at 12:10 PM  

      Oh dear. Most of the problems between different communities are about unfamiliarity and misunderstanding and ignorance. Those comments were made over a year ago when something very bad was going on - regardless of which side you take, no one can say that what happened wasn’t awful. I wouldn’t want to hold them against the person who made them a year later when that person seems to be genuinely interested in discussion.

    64. platinum786 — on 10th March, 2010 at 12:18 PM  

      Choose to think what you beleive. You can find thousands of enteries by myself on the internet, i’m a complicated character. I’m no friend of Israel, I consider it’s borders and it’s tactics criminal. If that makes me anti semitic so be it.

      There is one thing i’m not, that is a liar. I’m very straight forward and honest. The beauty of the internet that. In the grand scheme of things you at the other end are real humans with real emotions but because I and each one of us can only see a computer screen in front us, it removes any inhibitions we have. Hence I have no need to lie on the internet.

      It may be hard for some to accept, but you can dislike Israel without disliking jews. However if someone was to read some of my posts, there are litterally thousands on the internet, you could on that basis prove me to be a lot of things, including an anti semite. I was 16 when i started posting on internet forums, can hardly be held to account for those comments now, can i?

      Its easy to be 30-40-50 and say “I’m a liberal” or “I’m a socailist” or “I’m a conservative” etc, at 16 you just don’t know. I don’t think i know today.

      If I wanted to hide who I am, was or will be, from any of you, there is nothing stopping me posting using a different account. I don’t.

    65. cjcjc — on 10th March, 2010 at 12:31 PM  

      You’re 16, OK, things are making a little more sense.

    66. platinum786 — on 10th March, 2010 at 12:34 PM  

      Not right now, i’m lets say mid 20’s…

    67. cjcjc — on 10th March, 2010 at 12:38 PM  

      And your charming remarks to which exposer links were made only a year ago, so, age is no excuse.

      Anyway, I’m off to lunch now with one of my “well connected” friends.

    68. Kojak — on 10th March, 2010 at 12:43 PM  

      Random Guy @ 44:

      My comment 41 to platinum786 was a response to his assertion in 38 - so not off topic at all. The topic unfolds as time goes on.

      Back to the original subject: YAB (IMO) is a whinging muppet who regularly shouts ‘fire’ whilst conflating cause and effect.

      But who am I to say? I not a complicated character posting thousands of messages on the internet since I was 16 …….(look at 68).

    69. platinum786 — on 10th March, 2010 at 12:51 PM  

      I back what I said. Even the UN called it a massacre.

      In fact can we have this discussion there, on that topic on on this one?

    70. Random Guy — on 10th March, 2010 at 1:07 PM  

      In my opinion, its farcical for the commenters above to say that the Jewish community is experiencing the same level of animosity as the Muslim community in this country at the moment. Having said that, you cannot deny that the the Jewish community has a very strong collective memory of when this was the case, and are very fearful of it going back to this. Hence the over-sensitivity and thread derailment that ensued above after Platinum asked a straightforward question.

      Anyway, YAB. Praised when smearing the Muslim community and denigrated when defending it? This sort of thing has the potential to bring out the true colours of many people.

    71. Wibble — on 10th March, 2010 at 1:30 PM  

      “In my opinion, its farcical for the commenters above to say that the Jewish community is experiencing the same level of animosity as the Muslim community in this country at the moment.”

      Well don’t expect sympathy for your concerns from others then.

      When somebody as prominent as Anthony Julius raises these concerns also there is something wrong. It’s tragic that the behaviour and attitude of some Muslims here is playing a part in this.

      Regarding YAB, she elicits criticism from Muslims who don’t think she’s “Muslim enough” (whatever that means), and from right wingers who put her into the race-relations industry pigeon-hole.

    72. Ravi Naik — on 10th March, 2010 at 1:41 PM  

      I wonder how the defenders of ethnic profiling feel about this.

    73. Random Guy — on 10th March, 2010 at 1:55 PM  

      Wibble @ 70:

      “Well don’t expect sympathy for your concerns from others then.
      When somebody as prominent as Anthony Julius raises these concerns also there is something wrong. It’s tragic that the behaviour and attitude of some Muslims here is playing a part in this.”

      I have never expected, nor received, sympathy from ‘others’ - even when I have clearly had sympathy for them. What I have stated is a clear fact. You don’t like it and that isn’t really my problem or up for discussion in this topic.

      I also don’t really know what you mean in your part about Anthony Julius but I note your attempt to smear Muslims here with that odd backhanded comment - demonstrating amply what this topic is about in the process. Anyway, if he was so prominent surely we all would know who he is ?

    74. MiriamBinder — on 10th March, 2010 at 2:17 PM  

      Actually I take platinum786 point regarding perception rather seriously. Perception has a lot to do with how people then go and interact; which then elicits a response which may very well serve to strengthen the original perception.

      This is neither a Muslim specific nor minority specific attribute but one each and every group/individual experiences to varying degrees. The question should therefore be how we are going to break this self-fulfilling prophecy.

    75. Den — on 10th March, 2010 at 2:55 PM  

      YAB is simply fanning the flames of Muslim youth paranoia. The holes in her article are obvious. The reason why Muslim youths were disproportionately prosecuted for the violence was because they were disproportionately responsible for the violence. Anyone who has seen an anti-Israeli, pro Palestinian demo will know the non-Muslim protesters are mostly white middle-class luvvies and students, just about capable of throwing a lentil. Saemus Milne is Marxist extremist, who sympathises with all forms of terrorism and violence, as long as they have leftist tendencies.

      The only group of people who can justifiably claim discrimination and the disproportionate use of police powers are football supporters. The facts are enshrined in legislation and guidance to magistrates and public prosecutors:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/henryporter/2010/mar/06/football-fans-rights-police-abuse

      People who propagate this paranoia amongst Muslims are themselves racist because they believe many Muslims will swallow their lies and they do not give a platform to liberal Muslims and even denounce such liberals, such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

    76. Bill Corr — on 10th March, 2010 at 2:57 PM  

      Wassat?

      Platinum786 actually thinks the grotesque conglomeration of Third-World begging bowl despotisms in the UN actually have something to say worth hearing about Gaza?

      Huh?

      I’m trying to remember exactly word-for-word a wholly apposite quote attributed to the late Abba Eban; it was like this:

      “If the Algerians proposed a resolution asserting that the world was flat and that the Israelis had flattened it, it would be passed by the UN General Assembly by a majority of 78 in favour, 15 against and 10 abstentions.”

      As for Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, that Ugandan-born Ismaili-Lite*, she who fled the psychotic Asian-detesting Idi Amin [a Muslim, be it noted] and subsequently sent her son to Eton, can anyone - anyone - here remember when she ever had a good word to say about the country which took her in, gave her a home and a passport and provided her with a living?

      * Non-theologians may need to be reminded that Ismailis are followers of the nutsy-schismatic Aga Khan succession, they who enjoy owning racehorses, the company of curvaceous starlets and the comforts of villas on the Sardinian coast. It was mildly surprising to learn that the Aga Khan gang owns the Serena Hotel in Kabul, a favourite target of the fun-loving Taliban [the armed forces of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.]

    77. cjcjc — on 10th March, 2010 at 2:58 PM  

      Den - spot on.

      Bill Corr - piss off.

    78. Refresh — on 10th March, 2010 at 3:04 PM  

      Den,

      If it was a case of disproportionality alone, then I would happily argue with you. However dawn raids, knocking down doors and abusing family members paints a different picture. Wouldn’t you say?

    79. MiriamBinder — on 10th March, 2010 at 3:05 PM  

      Bill Corr merely posts to get a response; truculent for truculence sake really.

    80. Kojak — on 10th March, 2010 at 3:17 PM  

      Random Guy,

      You apear to be saying that there are a number of things / people you are unaware of, therefore they cannot be that important.

      This might sound a bit hard but I am astonished at how little antagonism there is towards Muslims in the UK - not because they deserve any but because of the impact that suicide bombings, destruction of the World Trade Centre have had on all of us.

      The people of Britain are amazing hosts and tolerant. So tolerant that they no longer remember how blissfully simple things were up to 10th September 2001. They might complain loudly about loss of soverignty due to the EU but are too polite to mention their loss of freedoms, which have gone to counter Islamic terrorism. We should think ourselves lucky that things haven’t become far nastier and people try to link UK Muslims with these events.

      If you were to today look at a newspaper from 2000 it would all seems to uncomplicated and naive.

      Completely off topic - but no matter.

    81. Bill Corr — on 10th March, 2010 at 3:22 PM  

      Here is the Abba Eban quote:

      http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abbaeban167935.html

      NOT INTENDED AS A CHEAP SHOT AT ALL:
      If Platinum786 is still in fulltime schooling, s/he should got to his-her English teacher and beg to be taught correct apostrophe usage.

      Remember, “It’s time to give the dog its food!”

    82. earwicga — on 10th March, 2010 at 3:35 PM  

      Bill Corr

      Your racist comment has been deleted (as have others related to it). Please desist from comments in a similar vein or your commenting rights will be revoked.

    83. Bill Corr — on 10th March, 2010 at 3:45 PM  

      I literally have to leave the keyboard now, but there’s something I remembered:

      If someone can dig it out, Theodore Dalrymple wrote an excellent piece on Militant Islam having filled a gap left by Warsaw Pact State Communism.

      It is probable that the two could not have coexisted [except in the imaginations of the self-hating Great Thinkers who post on SOCIALIST UNITY]

      And, earwigca, NOTHING I said was racist in the being-horrid-about-skin-colour sense at all; still, you’re the umpire and you make the rules.

    84. Refresh — on 10th March, 2010 at 3:48 PM  

      Earwicqa,

      I am not sure its a good idea to have deleted them, particularly as the tone of those comments make the point raised by your post.

      Ridicule is the best response.

    85. Random Guy — on 10th March, 2010 at 3:50 PM  

      Kojak @ #79: Sorry, but I am in complete disagreement. The situation now is worse than ever for the Muslim community and that is the direct result of a sustained campaign as I have already highlighted.

      As for being astonished at how little antagonism there is for Muslims in the UK, I am not sure which planet or bubble you are living in, but this is most certainly not the case. To make such a comment is to basically exclude yourself from the debate at hand. Yes, luckily most Brits are very open and tolerant, but there has been a huge rise in the legitimisation of Islamaphobia and attacks on Muslims’ beliefs in the last few years.

      Also, you seem to be saying that only if I am aware of certain individuals / issues can I say anything of importance. I disagree.

      Refresh @ #83: “Ridicule” you say? I would be more partial to sympathy. You can see how terrified Bill Corr is behind his nasty veneer. I feel sorry for the poor fool.

    86. Den — on 10th March, 2010 at 3:51 PM  

      #77. That is the style of policing that is now prevalent. It is used on drug dealers, terror suspects, burglars, people who run onto the pitch at football matches, as well as people who riot at demos. You only have to watch any one of the numerous Police documentaries on TV to realise this. To suggest the Police use such tactics only on Muslims is a selective use of the facts. Anyone with half a brain can see this.

    87. Refresh — on 10th March, 2010 at 3:54 PM  

      No Den, you are being selective.

      How do you equate drug dealing with disorder at a protest?

    88. platinum786 — on 10th March, 2010 at 3:57 PM  

      Woe is me, my spelling was incorrect on an internet forum.

    89. Refresh — on 10th March, 2010 at 4:02 PM  

      Ridicule the ridiculous should be the motto.

      He is a fool as well of course, and that is obvious in his ‘championing’ of the Zionist cause, as if they would want to be associated with someone just stepped out of a bathtub full of porcine blood and urine.

      No doubt in his utopia he would be out raising money for a good cause by bathing in the stuff. Baked beans? No, that’s been done. Get me some slurry!

    90. cjcjc — on 10th March, 2010 at 4:05 PM  

      Not “disorder”.
      Violence.

    91. MiriamBinder — on 10th March, 2010 at 4:06 PM  

      You can talk about facts till you are blue in the face and everyone else has blue ears. Facts do not alter perception where perception itself is reinforced almost every time you read a newspaper, follow a discussion on the internet or see some (unnamed) party posters.

    92. Wibble — on 10th March, 2010 at 4:12 PM  

      Random Guy @72

      yes of course you have sympathy because you dismiss Jewish concerns down to over-sensitivity, as opposed to your dealing in ‘facts’. Maybe you’re being a tad over-sensitive yourself ?

      Anthony Julius made a similar point to the YAB on the radio last week about Jewish acquaintances of his wondering if the UK is a safe place for them to live in the long term.

      The “smear” as you call it is in regard to feeling under pressure on one hand, yet some still behaving in a nasty manner to other citizens.

    93. Refresh — on 10th March, 2010 at 4:14 PM  

      Platinum786, don’t worry, it happens.

      The apostrophe is a bit of a beast. In fact there is a whole book on it, been dramatised for the radio and we now await a television series. Might even get a cinematic release with Russell Crowe (a la A Beautiful Mind).

      ‘Eats, Shoots & Leaves’

      The title is great for charades, well a bit better than Bedknobs and Broomsticks.

      I applaud Bill for his generosity on the apostrophe front - an excellent example of distance learning. For someone as touched as Bill Corr, its a real achievement.

    94. cjcjc — on 10th March, 2010 at 4:14 PM  

      Facts are rather useful in giving an idea whether a perception is justified or not, don’t you think?

      Otherwise we enter a realm where anything goes, so long as we “perceive” it.

      I might perceive a pervasive Muslim strategy in Tower Hamlets to be “Working Their Socks Off for an Islamic Superstate” while suggesting that the leader of Hamas would be the best leader of such a state.

      http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100029416/islamist-blogpost-of-the-day-6-we-are-all-working-our-socks-off-for-an-islamic-superstate/

      Others might suggest a degree of paranoia in the face of such obviously childish fantasy.

      But then they would be challenging my perception.
      Bad.

    95. earwicga — on 10th March, 2010 at 4:20 PM  

      Refresh - I understand what you are saying but I could not leave up Bill Corr’s one extremely racist comment. The rest have been left up for for you to ridicule.

    96. Sarah AB — on 10th March, 2010 at 4:23 PM  

      @kojak - here’s what looks like a quite a sensible piece on anti-muslim bigotry in the UK.

      http://www.leftfootforward.org/2010/02/attacks-on-british-muslims-are-being-brushed-under-the-carpet/

      I take the kind of violence discussed here completely seriously but sometimes people cite things like the recent ‘Dispatches’ as Islamophobic, which is perhaps counterproductive?

      I glanced at the comments to the piece I linked to - and it was good to see Modernityblog (who covers issues relating to antisemitism) linking to it as well.

    97. Refresh — on 10th March, 2010 at 4:29 PM  

      Thanks earwicqa. I can see Bill Corr is going to be fun. Probably not as much as the long gone Amir, or even Marvin in his heyday.

    98. Kojak — on 10th March, 2010 at 5:05 PM  

      Random Guy @84 + Sarah AB @ 95,

      I think we are talking at crossed purposes here.
      I’m not saying there isn’t anti-Muslim bigotry, far from it.

      What I said was that given the enourmity of the ‘fallout’ following September the 11th and other suicide bombings I’m astonished at how little there is.

      If I were to find someone in a hole my advice to them would be: “Stop digging”. I would suggest Muslim people in the UK get on with their lives, as happily as possible, and try to avoid radical elements tarring them by association. Unfortunately the Muslim communities in the UK appear not to be in the position where they can stop Islamists opportunists such as the bombers in London or Amjen Choudary whip up reproach of the wider society. Also the seemingly talismanic devotion to the cause of Palestinian v Israel at best aligns them with far-left losers and at worst ….. well I don’t want to go into that one ….

    99. Refresh — on 10th March, 2010 at 5:56 PM  

      Kojak, the question is how much of that bigotry has been stirred up by the media, the establishment etc.

      I believe the general public is very sensible and understand what is going on. The question is always one of how long the public can maintain its resistance to what amounts to a war of attrition by and through the media.

      Someone did mention upthread that this replaces the Cold war. Which is absolutely correct. Imagine how long it would have taken for the establishment and the media to condition its public to be anti-communist and anti-Soviet Union.

      Some of you who have been more alert, will have noticed that this is expected to last 50 years and is known as the ‘Long War’. And we are only 8 years in.

    100. Katy Newton — on 10th March, 2010 at 5:58 PM  

      In my opinion, its farcical for the commenters above to say that the Jewish community is experiencing the same level of animosity as the Muslim community in this country at the moment.

      Actually, not being Jewish, you’re in no more position to know what it’s like to be Jewish in this country than I am to know what it’s like to be a Muslim. If you take the view that islamophobic incidents are happening at a much higher scale than is reported (and I think that’s probably absolutely true) then I don’t know why you would simultaneously be sure that it isn’t the same for Jews. But in any event, I didn’t say anything about levels of animosity. I don’t think it’s a competition, but if I had to pick I’d agree with you that Islamophobia seems to be an acceptable part of social interaction here in a way that antisemitism doesn’t. Even most antisemites are aware that it’s not a good idea to express it publicly; the same doesn’t seem to go for islamophobes.

      As I have already tried to explain, I was empathising with Platinum (you know about empathy, right? It’s when you try to imagine being in the other person’s shoes rather than imposing your own mindless assumptions and prejudices on them?) and talking about the type of fear that people have, which is subjective and not necessarily related to what’s actually going on out there.

      Having said that, you cannot deny that the the Jewish community has a very strong collective memory of when this was the case, and are very fearful of it going back to this. Hence the over-sensitivity and thread derailment that ensued above after Platinum asked a straightforward question.

      Excuse me, it’s not a matter of “collective memory”. It’s stuff that’s actually happening to my community at the moment. The fact that it is not happening in front of you and/or you haven’t been aware of it doesn’t mean it’s not happening. It’s offensive to dismiss other people’s experiences in the way that you ahve. Platinum’s comment read as if he didn’t accept that Jews got any sort of hard time. It also read as if he didn’t think that Jews counted as a minority, which I found kind of astonishing. I was not the only person who read it that way, which is another thing you might have a think about before you start accusing people of oversensitivity. When a majority of people consider something that you’ve said to be offensive it’s quite likely that it was, even if you didn’t mean it that way. The sensible thing to do is explain what you meant, not bollock people for being offended.

    101. Katy Newton — on 10th March, 2010 at 6:04 PM  

      In my opinion, its farcical for the commenters above to say that the Jewish community is experiencing the same level of animosity as the Muslim community in this country at the moment.

      Actually I just want to come back to this, because it is exactly the sort of comment that is spectacularly unhelpful. It’s not a competition. When I say to someone “I understand how you feel because that’s part of my cultural experience too”, I’m not trying to steal their thunder or imply that what’s happening to them isn’t important or unique, but I do find it offensive if I’m accused of lying or exaggerating or being oversensitive when what I’m doing is identifying common experiences. It isn’t the same to be Jewish as it is to be Muslim, but that feeling of being born into a country, being raised in it and yet being somehow considered a poor fit or a foreign transplant is one thing that is not unique to the Muslim experience. How is it offensive or farcical to point that out?

    102. douglas clark — on 10th March, 2010 at 7:04 PM  

      Kojak @ 98,

      I tend to agree with Refresh @ 99 on this.

      You could argue that the British public is very discriminatory. It discriminates against it’s own Press, it discriminates between the Muslims it meets and knows and the few headbangers that grab the headlines. It is, in fact, pretty comfortable that the 24 / 7 media has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with ‘real life’, if I may call it that.

    103. Random Guy — on 10th March, 2010 at 7:19 PM  

      Katy @ #101, the experience of being a foreigner in your own country as you describe in your post, I agree is not unique to Muslims. However, I was referring to the “level of animosity”, rather than an out-and-out rejection of the notion of selective discrimination.

      The posts prior to the one in which I made the comment quoted by yourself seemed to be taking exactly that “competitive” tone you are warning against.

    104. Naadir Jeewa — on 10th March, 2010 at 9:18 PM  

      Reading these comments, it seems like many people think the world is full of a finite quantity of hate that’s spread around in a zero-sum game.
      We should be worried that the “absolute quantity” of hate is on the up.

    105. boyo — on 10th March, 2010 at 10:21 PM  

      er…. jews are proportionately far higher to be attacked than muslims. and these are comparitive figures that do exist.

    106. earwicga — on 10th March, 2010 at 10:32 PM  

      Please link to them then boyo.

    107. Refresh — on 10th March, 2010 at 10:35 PM  

      Boyo, I thought you’d have got the message. Its not a competition.

    108. Boyo — on 11th March, 2010 at 12:15 AM  

      earwicga. Jews are four times more likely to be attacked.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1537128/Jews-far-more-likely-to-be-victims-of-faith-hatred-than-Muslims.html

      whatsmore, more than a third of muslims appear to believe this is justified.

      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article727952.ece

      it’s not a competition, but the perpetuation of self-serving myths simply serves to compound conflict not diffuse it.

      based on the comments one often reads here, not least on this thread, it seems to me that much muslim woe is derived from within, not without and until people begin to take true pride in their identity, rather than manifest a distorted, deterministic kind of low self-esteem, then their problems will perpetuate.

    109. Stanislaw — on 11th March, 2010 at 12:59 AM  

      Earwicga will run a mile rather than address that evidence, just as she did when challenged to back her smears about Gita Sahgal.

    110. earwicga — on 11th March, 2010 at 1:38 AM  

      Stanislaw - I did not smear Gita Sahgal. I analysed her statements and pointed out the inconsistencies between these statements and the places where she made accusations with no basis in truth. Please stay on-topic.

    111. earwicga — on 11th March, 2010 at 2:20 AM  

      Boyo - thank you for posting the links I asked you for earlier in this thread.

      Your first link analyses three months of figures from 2006 in four police authorities and is alarming and shows a hideous amount of violence. It is worth noting that the article is about ‘faith-hate’ and not ‘race-hate’ and while they can be related, there is a difference to the types of crimes included in each category. And this also depends on police forces recording faith and hate crimes accurately which the article suggests wasn’t being done. It is strange that this material was only available under a FoI request.

      I am looking at your second link and the sources of the information it contains.

    112. cjcjc — on 11th March, 2010 at 6:51 AM  

      Rather ironic for earwicga to be demanding evidence when the original post consists of nothing more than quotes from/links to rants by YA-B and Shameless Milne.

    113. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 8:06 AM  

      Stanislaw @ 109,

      When exactly did you swallow the Euston Manifesto? Let us all see your ‘evidence’ for attacking Amnesty International.

      You are a pip squeak version of Harrys’ Place apologists for the revised version of Amnesty International - one that has nothing to say about Israel.

      Fuck that.

      If they remember to give me a vote, it will certainly be against political beasts such as your good self. For that is what Amnesty International ought to be about. Standing up to politically motivated morons…

    114. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 8:26 AM  

      cjcjc @ 112,

      It would, perhaps, be rather ironic that anyone would see an agenda heavy, evidence lite, person such as your good self, as credible.

      Well, perhaps they don’t….

      Lots of people read what you have to say, not everyone can be bothered to reply.

    115. cjcjc — on 11th March, 2010 at 8:29 AM  

      Goodness me, who got out the wrong side of the bed this morning?

    116. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 8:46 AM  

      cjcjc,

      Nope.

      I think you are completely wrong, most of the time. But that is what you do, isn’t it? You are a Cassandra come on here to give us your doom and gloom.

      Go on. Persuade me, and remember that there are more people listening than writing…

      You have an audience, why not exploit it?

      It is what you try to do.

    117. cjcjc — on 11th March, 2010 at 9:14 AM  

      Am I gloomy? Not at all. I am a very optimistic person.

      Cassandra was of course condemned by Apollo never to be believed, despite having the gift of (accurate) prophecy.

      I’m beginning to like your comparison!

    118. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 9:36 AM  

      I have never met a Muslim that was a ‘contemptable creature, nor a devalued human being.’

      In fact, if I had a vote in Glasgow Central, I would definitely vote for Osam
      a Saeed. Not his main opponent, Anas Sarwar.

      But there you go, I would certainly vote against a Labour Canditate…

    119. cjcjc — on 11th March, 2010 at 9:44 AM  

      The fine upstanding Osama Saeed.
      Why doesn’t that surprise me?

      http://www.hurryupharry.org/2010/03/01/osama-saeeds-mb-front-fails-to-file-accounts/

    120. MiriamBinder — on 11th March, 2010 at 10:17 AM  

      cjcjc - I am completely in agreement with Douglas Clark on your contributions here; though I accept your self-declared optimism. Your drip feed of poisonous links without any attempts to either explain or elaborate on your reasoning is the very soul of optimism. It does not however detracts from its poisonous nature in any way.

    121. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 10:51 AM  

      cjcjc @ 119,

      It doesn’t surprise you because you are an idiot. For goodness sake, the fools at Harrys’ Place are hardly likely to tell you anything like the truth about anything. They have an agenda, and it is not nice.

      I’d be quite interested in what you make of Anas Sarwar? On whom you are stangely silent. Much like your muckers on Harrys’ Place. Want to know where his brother is?

      In jail.

      A shower of liars and cretins.

    122. cjcjc — on 11th March, 2010 at 11:00 AM  

      So have those accounts been filed or not?

      You’ll have to fill me in on Mr Sarwar.

      But it was you who brought up Mr Saeed, not me.
      If the HP article is false, then tell me where.
      Calling people “fools” does not, alas for you, make them so.

      Miriam, I am an optimist, but I am not Candide.

    123. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 11:14 AM  

      cjcjc,

      Where are you getting the idea that Osama Saeed is anything other than what he says he is?

      If it is based on what Habibi says, then you have no idea how piss poor I think his or her ‘journalism’ is.

      I am quite willing to take ‘Habibi’and Harrys’ Place apart on this issue. For they tell lies, and half truths, much as they always do. It is not that they understand truth, they actually deny it for fun.

      For that is what they do. A shower of cheating bastards…..

    124. cjcjc — on 11th March, 2010 at 11:16 AM  

      OK.
      Where are the lies in that article?
      Have the accounts been filed now?

      I see Admiral Nelson’s telescope has switched its target from Begg to Saeed!

    125. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 11:31 AM  

      OK, cjcjc @ 122,

      I’ll assume you haven’t a clue what you are talking about

      Osama Saeed, as the face of the SIF, was given money by the SNP government, a minority administarion btw,, who require votes from other parties, to attempt to pesuade rich Arabs to invest in the Scottsh economy.

      That didn’t happen.

      And the money was paid back.

      What the fuck are you about?

    126. cjcjc — on 11th March, 2010 at 11:33 AM  

      Try to stop swearing.

      Was it all paid back?

      Have the accounts been filed?

    127. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 11:43 AM  

      cjcjc @ 124,

      I am saying that everything they say is a lie. Do you want me to prove it?

      What is the point about not swearing about lying liars?

    128. cjcjc — on 11th March, 2010 at 11:47 AM  

      Have the accounts been filed?

    129. Kojak — on 11th March, 2010 at 12:33 PM  

      Refresh @ 99:

      Ah, it’s all down to the media, is it?

      If in doubt - blame the media.

    130. Kojak — on 11th March, 2010 at 12:40 PM  

      Platinum786 @50:

      Thans for the reply to the points I mentioned.
      I’m afraid so, the security guards are there for a purpose. If you were to look back through the last 25 year’s news of where bombs + shootings have taken place synagogues feature again and again.

    131. MiriamBinder — on 11th March, 2010 at 12:48 PM  

      cjcjc - oh dear, you are on a roll now aren’t you. Such a shame that you do not put as much effort into explaining or justifying most of the links you have drop-shipped ;)

    132. Refreah — on 11th March, 2010 at 1:13 PM  

      Kojak, there is no doubt. You would prefer us all to be distracted from the bigger picture.

    133. MiriamBinder — on 11th March, 2010 at 1:15 PM  

      There is no doubt that the Jewish experience of being a Jew in England does give them a certain insight into what Muslims must be experiencing. Further there are a lot of similarities between the two communities in the way in which they have integrated without really being perceived as integrated because they still hold to say … a different form of worship, a non mainstream form of dress to differing extends, have a different calendar of festivals/holy days, a different dietary requirement (kosher/hallal)as well as the many different forms of observance itself; which are in many ways as strange/unacceptable to other Jews/Muslims; regardless of whether the non-Jewish/non-Muslim readers will accept that or not.
      Just like Jews within Judaism, Muslims have those who regard their Islam as purely spiritual in the religious sense. To others, Jew as well as Muslim, it is more a political movement; though they may well use religious terms to justify the politicisation of their respective faiths. There are also of course those who, like many a nominal Christian regard their religion as something to do on high days and holidays but having little effect on their daily lives or conduct.
      Yet by and large few commentators/headlines/posters actually differentiate between these various groups. Once it is known you are Jewish, you must necessarily be a rabid Zionist (in the more pejorative sense of the word). Likewise, if you are Muslim you must necessarily sympathise/agree with the issuers of politicised Fatwahs, applaud the actions of El Qaida and just count the days till a British Taliban takes over in Westminster.
      It is this tendency to discuss/address/consider individuals as members of a homogenized group and thereby effectively attributing traits that effects perception (whether that be Muslim terrorist or, as in the more anti-Semitic past, the Blood Libel references to mention but one) which in turn distorts reality. This distortion of reality is not just confined to those who are not Muslim/Jew or whatever group is the favourite ‘scapegoat’ flavour of the month. It also colours the perception of those who are members of those groups. Being viewed or feeling that you are viewed by constant and unjustified suspicion in many cases will, especially among the younger and less hardened to unfounded criticism, inevitably lead to resentment and alienation; that this may then in turn result in a less controlled response and a rasher descent into violent response should come as no surprise.
      I am in no doubt that those who have responded violently should be addressed and dealt with in full accordance with the law. I also think that we need to look at ourselves, as a society and ask how it is that, as in the situation referred to by the opening article of this thread, there is indeed such a preponderance of young Muslim men. I for one accept that public discourse has its part to play in that.

    134. MiriamBinder — on 11th March, 2010 at 1:16 PM  

      Is post # 132 by someone other then Refresh?

    135. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 1:21 PM  

      MiriamBinder,

      Probably, it is not how you’d spell Refresh. I can’t be done with these sorts of idiots…

      But there you go.

      It was vaguely amusing when folk took over the names of famous politcians, it is not even vaguely funny when they take over my name, or that of Refresh.

      We need to find a way of stopping this.

    136. Refresh — on 11th March, 2010 at 1:21 PM  

      MiriamBinder

      It was a typo it should have said Refresh.

    137. MiriamBinder — on 11th March, 2010 at 1:26 PM  

      Oh, thank you Refresh … I’ve become a tad sensitive to posters’ appellations in view of the spate of trolls we have had.

    138. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 1:39 PM  

      cjcjc,

      Have the accounts been filed?

      Dunno. Osama Saeed said that they had been cleared of any wrongdoing.

      Have you any evidence to prove they have not?

      Lest I put you into the same frame as Harrys’ Place and other nutters?

      Y’know, first to say stuff, last to defend it? These are your chums, after all.

    139. Refresh — on 11th March, 2010 at 2:10 PM  

      Douglas Clark,

      cjcjc hopes to join the TonTon Macoute. His contributions here are him dipping his toes into that murky existence.

    140. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 2:22 PM  

      Refresh @ 139,

      True.

      I rather hoped he was worth saving. If we could get him to provide evidence rather than gossip…

      I expect if you hang around Harry’s Place long enough you don’t understand the difference.

      Least, that’s what I think.

      Cue, Brownie……

    141. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 2:34 PM  

      Who seems to be giving out lessons on what he thinks McCarthyism is. Which is another example of Harry’s Place bending the truth. I’d have thought most folk had a pretty clear understanding of what HUAC was about. Read ‘The Crucible’ by Henry Miller to see the other side of the coin.

    142. Lucy — on 11th March, 2010 at 2:43 PM  

      @141 Arthur Miller: ‘The Crucible’, ‘A View from the Bridge’, ‘Death of a Salesman’

      Henry Miller: ‘Tropic of Cancer’, ‘Tropic of Capricorn’

    143. Kojak — on 11th March, 2010 at 6:40 PM  

      Refresh @132,

      No doubt of what?

      That the media exaggerates everything to the point that there are no substantive issues at all?

      or

      You don’t think the matters I raised were important?

      or

      I am an evil puppet master pulling the strings of a global conspiracy to hush you up?

      or

      The bigger picture to which you refer is apparent to intelligent people like you, but not dumb saps like me?

    144. Refresh — on 11th March, 2010 at 6:48 PM  

      ‘The bigger picture to which you refer is apparent to intelligent people like you, but not dumb saps like me?’

      I wouldn’t go as far calling you dumb, just misled.

    145. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 7:31 PM  

      Eh! Lucy @ 142?

      What was that all about?

      It is pretty obvious that braindead Rebublians are nuts.

    146. Brownie — on 11th March, 2010 at 8:22 PM  

      Read ‘The Crucible’ by Henry Miller to see the other side of the coin.

      Is that version as good as the one by *Arthur* Miller?

      You’re not very bright, are you, dougie?

    147. earwicga — on 11th March, 2010 at 8:34 PM  

      Buzz Brownie - you are late to the party, I thought you had died.

      Lucy has already noted douglas clark’s Arthur/Henry error at 142, but nice of you to spend your time also noting it.

      Not really an example of douglas clark’s lack of intellegence though is it? Keep trying…

    148. Brownie — on 11th March, 2010 at 8:51 PM  

      Not really an example of douglas clark’s lack of intellegence though is it?

      I think you meant to say that his literary faux-pas is not indicative of stupidity, rather than what you’ve done here which is to implicitly accept doug’s thickness and merely quibble about what represents a good example of such.

      Anyway, look over there! A human rights activist is escaping before you’ve had a chance to smear her. Run, earwicga, run!

    149. earwicga — on 11th March, 2010 at 9:07 PM  

      Buzz Brownie - with the cold I am suffering, the option to run anywhere is a million miles away.

      If my comment at 147 can be read that way then I thank you for pointing it out as it isn’t what I meant. I was replying using the same form you did - the negative.

    150. MiriamBinder — on 11th March, 2010 at 10:12 PM  

      It is always so much easier to cast aspersions then it is to actually explain your position and why you hold it isn’t Brownie. Granted it may well be intellectually less taxing but please don’t let that hold you back …

    151. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 10:18 PM  

      Brownie,

      You knew what I meant. Now piss off back to Harry’s Place you brain dead moron.

    152. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 10:42 PM  

      Brownie really does understand McCarthyism, because he and his gang practice it and preach it. It is fairly disgusting to watch.

      Our new found friend ,it seems to me at least, appears to have no moral compass whatsoever, no measure worth err, measuring. He is judgemental. Without a base.

      But there you go, Brownie is the new kid on the block, a renegade from Harry’s Place come to explain stuff to us poor idiots.

      Well fuck me, I find him reprehensible.

    153. Lucy — on 11th March, 2010 at 10:49 PM  

      Fyi, I was not casting aspersions on anyone’s intelligence. Not intended. Just wanted to make sure Arthur Miller got all the credit that was due him. A bit earlier in the radio day, Mark Lawson had mentioned Henry Miller - to do with a certain kind of free expression in American literature that would not have been possible here prior to the ruling on ‘Lady Chatterley’s Lover’… to add another non sequitor to this conversation (sorry)!

      Dead right about HUAC and ‘The Crucible’ and what maligning and smearing can do when it is spread around enough.

    154. douglas clark — on 11th March, 2010 at 11:08 PM  

      Lucy,

      Cool.

      No big deal.

      Though you’d assume that I was the original author of the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ if Brownie had his way. It is that ridiculous polarisation, nonsense if you will, that drives me mad. And Brownie is a past master at it,

      It seems to me, at least, that Brownie knows his authors, he does not however see the point I was attempting to make.

      That seems to be par for the course for Brownie.

    155. MiriamBinder — on 12th March, 2010 at 1:20 AM  

      @ Lucy # 153 - Correcting errors is fine, we all slip up. I was referring to Brownie.

    156. Refresh — on 12th March, 2010 at 2:50 AM  

      ‘Though you’d assume that I was the original author of the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Zion’ if Brownie had his way.’

      Brownie will not give up easily. He is working his way up to a BabyDoc car sticker.

    157. MiriamBinder — on 12th March, 2010 at 3:23 AM  

      Oh well … what can’t be cured has to be endured ;)



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