Obvious point: the state can spend tax-payers money to promote something without changing any laws. Just like AIDS-awareness, drunk-driving, and so on.

Yeah but the context was dictating how people live their lives.

Peace and blessings be upon her.

the cricket test is bollocks, but the war test isn’t.

Little known fact: in WWII, there were some Welsh people who picked the other side. They tried to bomb RAF bases and so on.

http://www.south-wales.police.uk/fe/master.asp?n1=8&n2=253&n3=504&n4=846

The German intelligence service had recruited a fanatically anti-English Welshman by the name of Arthur George Owens to provide them with a spy ring based on nationalist sympathies. He was given the task of establishing a network of Welsh extremists to gather information to aid sabotage on major industrial plants, airfields and defence installations.

The ones involved in those activities were literally a roomful, they could have all turned up at a resteraunt and get served without having to book in advance. And support for them was miniscule.

Meanwhile welsh speakers, welsh nationalists, were dying by the thousand in the struggle against Hitler.

Kind of sounds familiar somehow.

- society is going to hell in a hand basket;

- everybody has gone soft and decadent;

- standards are slipping; and

- the basis of society are fixed, broadly acknowledged and religiously based moral principles

She takes the view, I think, that those principles should inspire law and the manner of government, but that private morality rather than coercion should be the rule. In other words, if everybody behaved well, and if the state doesn’t actively undermine societal structures, society will function well. In other words, she’s in favour of pluralism, but within largely internally imposed boundaries.

What irks her is that she thinks that a particular strand within political Islam seeks to be violently opposed to such a settlement, that this strand seems to be in the ascendant, and that it is not recognised as a threat by a society which is too decadent and flabby to protect itself. She tends not to go as far as to say that Islam in itself is inescapably bound to conflict with, and to fail to integrate into, a culturally conservative society which respects the private sphere.

So there are trace elements of a liberalism in her position: but it is essentially a weak clash of civilisations theory, riding on a broader “cultural decline” thesis.

I tend to disagree with much of her thesis: because I don’t think, ultimately, that a culturally conservative solution is either workable or desireable.

Arif- i admit i am wrong to make assumptions about Melanie Philips political leanings just from one radio interview…I guess I was just trying to work out what she ultimately wants for British society today and you and Chairwoman have pretty much answered that between the two of you. She wants assimiliation…but into what? Judeo-Christian values. How different are these values from Sikh values, Hindu values, Muslim values?

Jai- you are absolutely right to point out that Scotland and Wales are part of Britain politically and geographically and therefore it is perfectly acceptable for these countries to support their own national team without all the controversy.

I just don’t like the whole cricket test notion-mainly because i’m really indecisive and find it hard to choose between two ice cream flavours let alone who to support in a cricket match between India and England…i could stick with the ice cream analogy and say i choose both…is that allowed?

Justforfun- i share your concern with Britain descending into fragmentation along religious/ cultural lines..mainly because i worry about where i would fit into all of this being a confused agnostic… I guess if I was to take Chairwoman up on her idea for days off work for religious festivals I would be a better (and a more well-rested) person for it…just thinking about it is making me smile…I’l have Eid, Diwali, Vaisakhi and Chanukah to look forward to..not to mention Christmas…everyone loves Christmas right?

The Beth Din (Court of the Chief Rabbi) and other Jewish courts are there for people who want to use them, to decide religious matters, but of course they have access to mainstream British Law, and people have been known to use both, or hedge their bets, as I like to call it. The verdicts reached by the Beth Din are binding only by the consent of both parties, and can be ‘rubber stamped’ by a British court when all parties are in agreement.

Marriages have to be in licensed premises, religious divorces and agreements have to be confirmed by a British court. Contracts are contracts and can be written according to Judaic law within the confines of British Law. The same goes for wills, pre-nups, etc. Animals slaughtered under the rules of Kashrut are killed in abatoirs licensed and inspected by the relevant Health and Safety authority.

Days off for religious festivals have to be granted by an employer, but I think that they don’t have to be paid. I’m not sure about this, because I have not been an employee for many years. I can see no reason why this situation shouldn’t apply to Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Bhuddists and anything else anyone can think of. I have no problems with Wiccans taking time off for Walpurgis.

If I am wrong on any of this I count on Bananabrain to correct me.

My fear and concern is that once there is the idea that communities can obtain exemptions from the national law, especially on religious grounds, then we will really be in trouble. More and more community leaders will use coercion to silence dissenting elements within their so called comminities. Politians will pander to these community leaders by offering further target religious exemptions and will be paid back by recieving blaock votes. Polititians might even help suppress dissent in the various communities because this would upset the deleivery of block votes by their community leaders.

India is full of exemptions withins its laws that pander to religious minorities. This is a throwback to the way things were and they were a pragmatic solution to the past social set setup within India. But as India progresses, these laws should and I hope and beieve will be slowly phased out so that the Federal Laws will apply to all citizens, with the States being able to taylor their own laws for their own regional requirements. I can’t believe the UK can actually want to go in the other direction and build a fragmented society. Chairwoman – perhaps I have read to much into your short post, and if I have then just dismiss this a rant by someone who is getting more and more drepressed by the comeback religion is making in the modern world.

Justforfun

Arif – it’s not often we agree on anything, but you are spot on with this. I was actually of the opinion that that’s what we ‘British’ Judeo-Christians had done. If everybody else joined in it would verge on the Utopian.

Susan – Yes Melanie Philips is Jewish, and certainly no supporter of the BNP or any exclusive party. She just feels that we ‘incomers’ should not expect the fabric of British society to change to suit minorities.

Unfortuately it seems that quite a lot of people didn’t understand that when Muslims asked that certain parts of Sharia and Islamic festivals be recognised here, they were asking this only for Muslims. I actually think this is a good idea. All major religious festivals for all faiths should be acknowledged and their followers be allowed to take them as a Bank Holiday. As for the domestic parts of Sharia that were asked for, actually there’s no reason why that couldn’t be encompassed by current contract and inheritance laws.

It would be good if in daily life we could all differentiate between ‘Church’ and State. I think at the end of the day that is what Melanie Philips wants. I wish I could stretch that to a book.

=>”The Scots and Welsh rugby supporters aren’t questionned about their loyalty to crown and country when they back their national teams. They aren’t accused of being less British! Why do I have to decide goddamnit!”

It’s because Scotland and Wales are a part of Britain, geographically and politically. India is not. Hence the controversy.

For one thing she agrues that different “races” can peacefully coexist in the UK, just that different cultures cannot. She argues for assimilation as opposed to integration or multiculturalism, so she is not a racist. She believes that Britain is historically Judeo-Christian and that this in some way defines the culture that immigrants must assimilate into.

Perhaps she makes her definition clearer in the book. But given that, whatever her definition, it will be contested even by people Melanie agrees are part of Judeo-Christian Britain, how would she suggest the definition be settled for the purposes of public policy? I suggest the best solution would be a form of multiculturalism for Judeo-Christians: live and let live, understand your heritage in your own ways and develop them as you feel fit without harming others.

You also bring up a valid point about the idea that ‘multi-culturalism’ is not a term used in other countries who may also contain a number of ‘visible’ immigrant communities. I think this is because of the WAY in which Britain became a ‘multi-cultural’.

Ever since Britain opened its doors to thousands of migrants from the New Commonwealth and Pakistan by mistake (the 1948 British Nationality Act caused a lot of panic after its inception-as it was actually intended to ease entry into Britain for immigrants from the White settler colonies…) successive British governments have had to straddle the line between appearing to be accepting of the changing face of British society to allay any potential conflict arising from the immigrant communities themselves WHILST attempting to show the indigenous (God i HATE that word!)population that they will do everything in their power to stop more of these people coming in!

Multi-culturalism (being accepting of different cultures) therefore has HAD to go hand in hand with tightening up immigration (changing the wording in various British Nationality legislation to curb the number of immigrants from the former colonies coming to settle in their ‘mother country).

Though i don’t know enough to comment on the countries you mentioned..Singapore, India… Britain does seem to be quite unique in the way that it became a more culturally and religiously diverse country.

RE: ‘the cricket test’. This is what people like Melanie Philips and Norman Tebbit will never understand. I as the granddaughter of Indian immigrants can support the Indian cricket team without necessarily compromising my sense of ‘Britishness’. The Scots and Welsh rugby supporters aren’t questionned about their loyalty to crown and country when they back their national teams. They aren’t accused of being less British! Why do I have to decide goddamnit!

Also is it true that Melanie Philips is Jewish? If so how does she fit into another notion she brought up in the radio interview-that Britain until very recently was a ‘Christian country’? Wouldn’t the far-right have an issue with her religious background? (although she seems far enough to the right already to make me think she might be a good spokesperson for their cause).

completely agree with u -Britain or any country, for that matter, has never has a homogenous set of values, and neither have countries and nations ever been conflict-free – negotiating difference is the business of politics but we somehow lose our nerves when we have to negotate difference that has colour or culture or religion.

As to the long debate on multiculturalism and whether it’s useful for not… it’s history is rooted in the left’s internal debates and an effort to recognise that there is more to divisions than class and that people can confidently value their dfferences – and not feel their customs stand as inferior to a dominant and hegeomic norm – ‘white british’ standards whatever this may be.

I personally find multiculturalism harmless – it’s politics without teeth and samosa serving tea parties which is why the Left is so narked that it enjoys any popularity.

I also find it interesting that multiculturalism is a discourse in western countries and therefore is a western concept , perhaps even Anglo-phile concern. Countries like India, Singapore and so on with more visible pluralist populations do not debate multiculutralism or the need to assert the parity of cultures – in fact, but what these countries do debate is rights and access to justice, and opporunities for minoirty groups. I personally don’t care if people want to celebrate their cultures, learn different languages, or dance to foreign tunes, it’s part of what Britain is. I don’t see how this might undermine people’s claims’s to citizenship in England. The idea that Melenie Phillips peddles is the Normal Tebbit cricket test. Only this time because we’ve demonised Islam so much we can pretty much bring back the Tebbit Test without negative repurcussions.

I haven’t read her book and i suppose i should before i start writing nasty things about her etc BUT i would be interested to know if she explained in her book what these ‘british values’ are/were..

As far as I’m concerned Britain has never and never will have a homogenous set of values to live by. Britain in the past has been divided along class lines with the upper classes/aristicracy living quite separate from the lower/working classes.

Yes you are by linking to Hinduphobic bullcrap like

http://sujaiblog.blogspot.com

Indian Hindus want Ram Rajya back. What does it mean? Does it mean- let Brahmins control education and the bureaucracy, let Kshatriyas rule govern, let Vaishyas manage businesses, trade and wealth, let Shudras be kicked out of schools to concentrate on menial work, let Dalits be kicked out of all cities and towns, and let other religions be kicked out of the country (because they didn’t exist during the time of Rama)?

If you want to complain about the lack of conservative commentary in this country, blame the Whiggish end of the Tory party (the Wets) for losing the will to speak out.

Play that funky music, strawman.

The affirmative action link you provided was a report from Connecticut, not UK.

Step up your game Sunny.

TFI