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  • Rivers of love v politics of hate


    by guest
    18th January, 2010 at 10:34 am    

    contribution by Bobby Smith

    Much newsprint has been used up on the cartoon like figure of Anjem Choudhury - arguably the most recognisable British Muslim in the UK - at least since Captain Hook was imprisoned - and certainly the one they love to hate.

    Oh what ‘fun’ it was as person after person, organisation after organisation queued up to put the proverbial steel toe-capped boot into him - thus proving their integrationist and ‘moderate’ credentials - organisations such as the Muslim Public Affairs Committee.

    Although a view of the forum section of their website would show views more in keeping with the ‘radical’ Choudhury than those of Florence Nightingale!

    What, though, are we scared about? Yes, I accept Choudhury and his like are dangerous to young minds, all too readily brainwashed by his twisted ideology, but I like to think the majority of the population possess the brain cells to see past his schoolboy ranting.

    In addition to their somewhat one-dimensional outlook on life I am afraid they are also somewhat behind the times, as the Cockney Rejects, back in 1979, beat them to it with their East End Oi! anthem ‘Police Car’ - a song that contained the immortal line “Freedom? There ain’t no fucking freedom“.

    One can only imagine that Mr Choudhury is not an expert on the Oi! music scene that sprang to life in late ’70s Britain.

    This is so sad. Writing as someone who strongly believes that mixing in together is the right way forward, I find his views objectionable. People can learn so much from one another if they branch out just a little bit into the big bad world. I should add that I write this as an English, working-class punk rocker, married to a Nigerian, middle-class Methodist (Margaret), who in no way shape or form could be described as a punk rocker!

    And yet, despite our very obvious differences, our marriage works. This, then, is my message for Mr Choudhury and his acolytes - mix in with others and your view of the world will become enriched - although I appreciate it would require the patience of a Saint to commit to marriage with the enfant terrible of ‘Islam4UK’.

    My biggest wish, however, is for the media to concentrate on the good stories, where Muslims and the wider Asian ‘community’ are concerned.

    The saddest thing is that segregation is an unnecessary evil. Once people do communicate with each other, they find that they have more in common than they would at first imagine. After all, we all share the same worries about the economy, the anger over MP’s expenses and the disappearance of Victoria Beckham’s breasts!

    Our dear friend Mr Choudhury actually reminds me of old Enoch Powell, but not because he is an example of the ‘rivers of blood’ that he warned about.

    Oh no, what strikes me is that they both share the same closed minds - fearful of the world outside their doorstep - although the word mind is the nearest I will get to a compliment for ‘qualified lawyer’ Mr Choudhury.

    —————-

    Bobby Smith is the author of: One Love Two Colours: The unlikely marriage of a Punk Rocker & his African Queen, published via Matador.


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    Filed in: Civil liberties,Humour,Islamists






    43 Comments below   |  

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    1. pickles

      Blog post:: Rivers of love v politics of hate http://bit.ly/5EoJPp


    2. plooptionary

      @pickledpolitics do you really think these comments were from Rod Liddle http://bit.ly/5EoJPp … I'd be more than astonished if so


    3. Pickled Politics » Rivers of love v politics of hate Love Style

      [...] the original post: Pickled Politics » Rivers of love v politics of hate By admin | category: Uncategorized | tags: are-much, arguably-the, arguably-the-most, [...]




    1. halima — on 18th January, 2010 at 10:51 am  

      Hope the book is interesting as I always find people’s life stories more engaging than official accounts of reading about London social history… but I am bit confused about this article.. what are you trying to say? That people should talk to each other, learn from each and try and not be like Enoch Powell and Anjem Choudary? That the media should focus on positive stories .. etc, etc?

    2. persephone — on 18th January, 2010 at 12:18 pm  

      “ Although a view of the forum section of their website would show views more in keeping with the ‘radical’ Choudhury than those of Florence Nightingale!”

      From my limited experience of blogging & forums it seems that those with radical views (or just plain abusive types) seem to be overly attracted to commenting on the web as in the real world they would be personally accountable and responsible for their words and so use the web as an outlet. And there could be reasons why the Florence Nightingales do not comment so much. I don’t consider myself a Florence Nightingale but if a site does have alot of abusive, rabid commentary etc I simply do not engage.

      Having said that, if these organisations do have content on their site that is against their values, is irresponsible or not a reasoned debate they should wield their editorial control over comments…

    3. persephone — on 18th January, 2010 at 12:21 pm  

      “Amjed Choudhury – arguably the most recognisable British Muslim in the UK”

      Don’t agree with this. I only come across him when on PP. If I were to come across an interview/news regarding him then my reaction would be stop reading/listening after 30 seconds if I thought it had little value. Yes after this ban he is more widely known. But I think a lot of people would associate most recognised British Muslim as being Salman Rushdie for example. Perhaps we are giving AC more credence that he actually has.

    4. Bobby Smith — on 18th January, 2010 at 12:47 pm  

      Dear Halima,
      Yes, I am trying to get over the fact that he should speak to others and forget about the segregation he seems to be in favour of. The similarities that we have a citizens of the UK are always more strikig than our differences, or our ‘diversity’.
      If you like true life stories then you will love our book - as it is painfully honest in all sorts of areas.
      When I suggest he is the most ‘recognisible British Muslim’ I was actually referring to the media and their view of him. I guess I should have made that clear. Thanks.

    5. davebones — on 18th January, 2010 at 12:49 pm  

      Ho hum and another bun. I don’t understand this at all. You are commenting about what is written about Mr Choudhary? About what he says on Newsnight? I will ask again. He is accesible. He is in London most of the time. If you have a problem with what he believes why not speak to him? What is this Pickled Politics bun throwing?

    6. halima — on 18th January, 2010 at 1:17 pm  

      Bobby Smith

      Thanks.

      Will read your book with interest, I think London has much to contribute to the world about how ordinary people live together - never mind the policies and the politics that divide people. Being a Londoner I am guilty of singing London’s praises, but that aside, your story is probably one of many great stories about London’s people.

      Pickled Politics Editors/davebones

      I’ve heard davebones throw this challenge a few times which is that why doesn’t Pickled Politics speak to Mr Choudhary? It’s a fair challenge, I’ll happily debate with him, but even if he were to wipe the floor with me with his debating skills and intellectual thoughts, I’d still disagree with him. I disagree with his politics and his view of the world. The point isn’t about whether he can withstand opposition and convincingly argue back. I know lots of people who I disagree with that argue extremely well - but that don’t make ‘em right!

    7. Bobby Smith — on 18th January, 2010 at 2:26 pm  

      I would always debate with people, whatever their background or politics, as it stimulates the old brain cells. People have the right to have different views - it is what makes the world go round. However, it is important that ‘moderate’ people also join the debate, otherwise it becomes one-sided.

    8. Jai — on 18th January, 2010 at 3:03 pm  

      If you have a problem with what he believes why not speak to him? What is this Pickled Politics bun throwing?

      why doesn’t Pickled Politics speak to Mr Choudhary?

      Given Choudary’s stubborn refusal to answer two very simple questions repeatedly posed to him by Maajid Nawaz on Newsnight, namely “What would Choudary do to people like Maajid in his hypothetical Caliphate ?” and “Exactly how much is Choudary receiving in tax-funded welfare benefits [from the country he hates so much] ?”, it doesn’t exactly bode well for the chances of getting straight answers from him.

    9. lemontea — on 18th January, 2010 at 7:26 pm  

      ^ speaking of questions maajid nawaz refused to answer what the £1million pounds he gets from the british tax payer is being spent on? Seeing as £1 million is a far larger amount than 25k of benefits which mr choudray allegedly is on, we are entitled to get an answer aren’t we?

    10. Sunny — on 18th January, 2010 at 8:00 pm  

      But why is Anjem Choudhary even taking benefits from a state he hates so much? Guy doesn’t have principles.

      Halima - did you see the Newsnight interview? The whole thing was a sham, with Choudhary refusing to answer even basic questions. The man doesn’t want scrutiny, he wants publicity.

    11. halima — on 18th January, 2010 at 8:12 pm  

      I don’t like discussing his social security status whatever this might be ..

      But yes, I did see the Newsnight interview ( from your link on PP a few days ago, thanks for that) and it was a farce really, maybe it would be a waste of time, energy and space. But if I would deny Anjem Choudary the space it would be on grounds that he wasn’t important enough or didn’t represent a significant section of society, not because i couldn’t handle a challenge from him as dave bones implies.

    12. douglas clark — on 18th January, 2010 at 8:37 pm  

      Sunny,

      You have hosted ‘discussions’ here in the past. Would you be willing to host one with Anjem Choudary? The benefit of this media over television is that it is impossible for someone to do what Anjem Choudary did on Newsnight. I.e. talk right over the top of someone else.

      I’d have thought you are right when you say he doesn’t want scrutiny, just publicity. If that is the case and he refused discussion, at least we could all say he was feart.

      I have not got Jai’s patience for writing out questions as he did for the BNP, but asking for answers to the two he lists above is a start.

      It wouldn’t be difficult to assemble a list.

      Even if he never answered them, it would be useful.

      So, what say you?

      (If questions for the dreadful Rod Liddle are legitimate, are not questions for the equally dreadful Anjem Choudary?)

    13. douglas clark — on 18th January, 2010 at 8:53 pm  

      Question three, deferring to Jai’s original two points.

      I am an atheist. I will never be a theocrat. When your caliphate achieves complete dominance in the UK do you intend to take me to court and then execute me? Please feel free to explain how that would not be a death threat, albeit one that you try to justify in a theocratic manner? And with state authority. More paper is available to you as you’ll probably need it.

      Question four. What is your attitude to democracy? If you won an election, would you declare all subsequent elections a waste of time, or what? Please write at length.

      Question five. What is, in general, your attitude to mixed marriage between muslims and westerners, remembering that a lot of westerners are probably not very religious. Would you see that as a matter for your holy intervention, or not?

      And so on, ad infinitum…..

    14. dave bones — on 18th January, 2010 at 9:06 pm  

      Its not a challenge, just a search for a deeper understanding, but I am glad someone noticed. Go on. Ask him if he wants to take over the world or has some sort of evil plan of some description. Ask him if he wants to threaten us.

    15. dave bones — on 18th January, 2010 at 9:06 pm  

      and tell him I said hi.

    16. dave bones — on 18th January, 2010 at 9:12 pm  

      I am not saying that I agree with him on any or every level, just that I have a suspicion that if the cops don’t want to arrest him he probably lines up along side any number of vaguely interesting great British eccentrics. Maybe if we weren’t firing loads of stuff about in Muslim countries we wouldn’t notice people like him- but I won’t start imagining things for you- find out for yourself.

    17. douglas clark — on 18th January, 2010 at 10:30 pm  

      question six,

      Why, exactly is Dave Bones quite so defensive?

      Well?

    18. douglas clark — on 18th January, 2010 at 10:36 pm  

      dave bones, as you know him:

      I am not saying that I agree with him on any or every level, just that I have a suspicion that if the cops don’t want to arrest him he probably lines up along side any number of vaguely interesting great British eccentrics. Maybe if we weren’t firing loads of stuff about in Muslim countries we wouldn’t notice people like him- but I won’t start imagining things for you- find out for yourself.

      Well, you can make of that what you will.

    19. douglas clark — on 18th January, 2010 at 10:42 pm  

      Perhaps I think you are wrong, Wrong being a word that you reject? How fucking hippy are you?

    20. douglas clark — on 19th January, 2010 at 4:55 am  

      Anyway, dave bones appears to want us to discuss stuff with Anjem Choudary, though on Anjem Choudarys terms.

      He has, sort of, said as much here:

      Go on. Ask him if he wants to take over the world or has some sort of evil plan of some description. Ask him if he wants to threaten us.

      Well, yes. He does threaten me. Which makes him an enemy.

      We do want to to see the tit try to to explain himself on here.

      I suspect you don’t. I suspect you quite like assuming you have an exclusive contract on a nutter.

      Which you apparently do.

      Dave bones, I don’t know, you appear to be an apologist for a fool…

    21. MiriamBinder — on 19th January, 2010 at 6:58 am  

      @ Dave Bones # 14 - Regarding Anjem Choudary as one of “any number of vaguely interesting great British eccentrics” to use your terms is going it a bit rich.

      He’s hardly up there among individuals such as Frank Buckland, Andy Park, Kit Williams or Steve Gough and there are any number of others you could add to the list.

      Eccentricity is defined amongst others by a disregard rather then a disdain of society.

    22. douglas clark — on 19th January, 2010 at 7:18 am  

      So dave bones, as you appear to have access to the completely insane and probably shaitanic idiot that is your friend Anjem Choudary, how’s about he says something here?

      Just for the off. I think he is probably - in his own terms - a victim of satanic possession. I think he is mad. I think he is is a voice of evil rather than sense.

      I am wiling to discuss his insanity here.

      I doubt he is.

    23. douglas clark — on 19th January, 2010 at 7:29 am  

      Err, willing, apparenty to talk to the devil….

      It would be up to our good host to approve or not…

    24. douglas clark — on 19th January, 2010 at 9:41 am  

      It is to the point that reasonable folk around here have seen off the BNP and Stephen Gash. It is what reasonable people around here do.

      It seems to me, reasonable, that a completely insane muslim nutter, should be subjected to the similar questions?

      For instance, dave bones, do you think my head should be chopped off?

      Your friend appears to think so.

      Well, fuck him and you.

    25. Rumbold — on 19th January, 2010 at 10:00 am  

      As Sunny said, the reason Anjem won’t be invited on to Pickled Politics is that he doesn’t bother to debate. He refuses to answer any questions he doesn’t like, and is abusive to the interviewer (see last week’s Sunday Times News Review interview). There is no benefit to trying to get him on here. He just uses any opportunity as a soapbox. He wouldn’t answer any of your questions either.

    26. Jai — on 19th January, 2010 at 10:27 am  

      Go on. Ask him if he wants to take over the world or has some sort of evil plan of some description. Ask him if he wants to threaten us.

      Actually the handful of questions I had in mind involved a quite different issue, but Anjem Choudary’s responses would need to be supplied in writing, restricted specifically to the questions asked (ie. no attempts at deflection, diversions to semi-related or unrelated matters, or “answering a question with a question”), and accompanied with authenticated, verifiable written confirmation that the individual supplying the answers is indeed Anjem Choudary himself.

      However, given Choudary’s track record of behaviour, there are problems with the feasibility of this occurring, as previously mentioned by me, Sunny and most recently Rumbold (#25).

    27. douglas clark — on 19th January, 2010 at 12:49 pm  

      OK Rumbold and Jai.

      You say that Sunny has rejected the idea. Perhaps he has, although he hasn’t spelled it out on here.

      I’d have thought, you Jai, may have wanted to discuss this with him:

      What would Choudary do to people like Maajid in his hypothetical Caliphate ?

      Or you Rumbold may have wanted to discuss his views on the caliphates benefit system?

      Exactly how much is Choudary receiving in tax-funded welfare benefits [from the country he hates so much]

      I am with Halima on this, and certainly not with Dave Bones.

      He either puts up or shuts up. And I’d have thought this was the place to do it.

      ———————————-

      Jai @ 26.

      It is pretty transparent that asking him to comment here means that he’d have to write shit. And you or I or anyone else would get the right of reply.

      You weren’t exactly scared of the BNP were you? I don’t see your joint and several point with Rumbold. Sunny hasn’t said no, so far…

      And it would be a tad hypocritical if he did. If we can take on the likes of Stephen Gash and Lee John Barnes in open debate, we can sure as god made little green apples, take on Anjem Choudary.

    28. Jai — on 19th January, 2010 at 6:07 pm  

      Douglas,

      The issue isn’t whether people here can effectively debate with Choudary, but whether he would be willing to stick to the conditions mentioned in #26. This would apply regardless of Choudary commenting here on PP or responding in writing via other channels to any lists of questions he is sent.

      When I mentioned “problems with the feasibility of this occuring”, it’s Choudary’s own behaviour that I was referring to.

    29. dave bones — on 19th January, 2010 at 9:18 pm  

      I’m not going round in circles Doug. If I had something to ask someone I would ask them. On my terms or at a convenient date ?

      What are you talking about “Appears to have access? I posted the number on the previous blog, I think the site will be down probably as a ten year sentence was mentioned but the number would be the same no?

      And what is this stuff about “debating skills”? surely its just “You dont want people to blow up here do you?”

      something along those lines? Its not complex is it?

    30. Jai — on 20th January, 2010 at 11:15 am  

      surely its just “You dont want people to blow up here do you?”

      something along those lines?

      No.

      Its not complex is it?

      Yes, it is.

    31. falcao — on 20th January, 2010 at 1:41 pm  

      What is point of having a debate when people already know what will happen, choudray wants publicity this what he seeks and media wants to give it to him.

      The newsnight segment with choudray vs nawaz was example of what will happen a slanging match between two kids to see who can shout the most.

    32. davebones — on 20th January, 2010 at 5:59 pm  

      Hey, well keep throwing buns then! But make them more interesting buns.Maybe you could contast peoplethoughout history who have fantasised about world domination? Or contrast those who play violent computer games like Grand Theft Auto with those who fantastsie about world domination? Or something more for the kids?Choudhary vs skateboarding?

      If I had something to ask someone I would ask them.

    33. davebones — on 20th January, 2010 at 6:04 pm  

      I’m not apologising for anyone, I have been to maybe three or four meetings which Mr Choudhary spoke at I have no responsibility for him and I don’t want to chop your head off Doug. If I thought Mr Choudhary was a threat I would ask him rather than throwing buns on a blog.

    34. davebones — on 21st January, 2010 at 8:59 pm  

      In all seriousness though I think it is a shame. Paxman just plays with Choudhary, another reason I can’t see him as a threat- but as a British Asian site your questions about the effects of his antics on communal relations in this country are much more valid and deserve some answers. I would like see what he says, and if he would answer you differently than he would I.

    35. Stephen Gash — on 23rd January, 2010 at 4:10 pm  

      @ douglas clark

      You and your ilk couldn’t see off a dead dog.

      It’s not surprise at all to see you resort to abuse at the earliest opportunity. You couldn’t win an argument against a newborn babe.

      The tide has turned against Islam (that is Muslims) and we will ensure that happy trend continues.

      SIOE’s next demonstration is against the Copenhagen mosque carbucle, in Nørrebro. Others are planned across Europe.

    36. MiriamBinder — on 23rd January, 2010 at 5:54 pm  

      No need to see off a dead dog Stephen Gash … after all we have you ;)

      The horizon has always been murky though when we have apoplectic screamers such as you to create a false impression. The fact is that we really aren’t that troubled by most Muslims any more then we are by most people. It is the extremists who are incapable of seeing anything but their own hatreds be they so called Jihadist or ‘patriotic’ white nationalist such as you …

    37. persephone — on 25th January, 2010 at 10:22 pm  

      @35

      How many does a demonstration make?

      ” Demonstration, definition:term has been in use since the mid-19th century…coined initially with reference to the huge assemblies of protesters inspired by Daniel O’Connell in Ireland.

      Thus, the opinion is demonstrated to be significant by gathering in a crowd associated with that opinion.

      A demonstration is usually considered more successful if more people participate.”

      Calling SOIE ‘demonstrations’ is as factually correct as saying that Copenhagen is fighting civil war…

      It would be more correct to term them as a small crowd….as in mob.

    38. douglas clark — on 25th January, 2010 at 10:33 pm  

      Oh fuck, I was going to bed, to sleep, to dream…

      And then comes along oor wee chum Stephen.

      Stephen says:

      The tide has turned against Islam (that is Muslims) and we will ensure that happy trend continues.

      SIOE’s next demonstration is against the Copenhagen mosque carbucle, in Nørrebro. Others are planned across Europe.

      Stephen will be delighted to know that I think he is a member of a sect with around a hundred maniacs. Stephen will be delighted to know that, despite the fact that he has media and I do not, he has persuaded very few people that his ‘Gates of Vienna’ rhetoric actually counts.

      I would say, but then I shouldn’t, that Stephen Gash is an embarrassment to anyone white. But there you go.

    39. douglas clark — on 25th January, 2010 at 10:51 pm  

      Eh!

      And Stephen, by the way?

      @ douglas clark

      You and your ilk couldn’t see off a dead dog.

      It’s not surprise at all to see you resort to abuse at the earliest opportunity. You couldn’t win an argument against a newborn babe.

      Point me to it Stephen. Where is that pathetic dead dog my friend?

      I’ll certainly ask you questions, because I think you have a singularity in your head - ‘it’s the muslims what dunnit’, or somesuch - however I have been vaguely polite to you.

      The fact that you are as thick as two short planks, a quite twisted propogandist for racist opinions (save me from the islam is not a race shit), an evil, self serving little bastard and quite beneath contempt may be the view of others.

      Me?

      I love you for all you faults.

      Did not the blessed Jesus say:

      Stephem Gash? I bow to him?

      Now fuck off.

    40. douglas clark — on 25th January, 2010 at 11:01 pm  

      Stephen Gash and others,

      It always struck me that a God, or his son, may have been able to see into the future, do you think so?

      Do you think everything that has happened since, say 2010 years ago has been foretold?

      If I ever meet your God, I hope and trust it is with a Kalashnikov in my hand.

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