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  • Technorati: graph / links

    ‘Anjem Choudhary is not an ambassador for Muslims’


    by guest on 5th January, 2010 at 10:52 AM    

    contribution by Hamira Khan

    Anjem Choudary is one individual, not an ambassador of the Muslim community. He is a fascist preacher of hate, who once again has insulted the families of dead soldiers. As a British Muslim, I am horrified to think that my Scottish friends and neighbours would even begin to think that a lunatic like him represents the views of the wider Muslim community.

    Choudary, UK Head of the now illegal organisation al-Muhajiroun, should know only too well the level of offense his proposed march in Wootton Bassett will cause, but will this be enough to stop him? Probably not. He is seeking nothing more than to maximise media attention on his extremist views and fundamentalism.

    Islam is not a religion which individuals like Anjem Choudary, and the recent Nigerian bomb suspect Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab claim it to be. It is a religion of love, respect and forgiveness. These people do nothing but bring shame on to the rest of us and it is them that are making Muslims the enemy; not foreign policy.

    The objective of the precession Choudary claims, is to highlight the “real cost of war”. I can’t say that I personally agree with the war in Afghanistan either, but that doesn’t mean that I’ll take to the streets of Wootton Bassett and demonstrate in such a distasteful and insensitive manner. Families in the UK have suffered just as much as the innocent Afghani families.

    Extremist groups such as the Al-Muhajiroun and the BNP want nothing more than to separate British Muslims from the rest of society, and as a nation - a United Kingdom - we must never let this happen.

    Over the recent years, I have been appalled by the ugly stereotypes of Muslims in our media and elsewhere. Ironically I have come to realise, how can I blame the stereotypes when all we hear in the news is about the mad ones. We need more positive role models in public life.

    My work these days is all about inspiring, motivating and empowering people - particularly within the Muslim community - to engage with and become more fully involved in our democratic society. I believe that we shouldn’t sit back and expect others to get on with it we should be participating and contributing to make a real difference.

    When I say “we”, I mean all of us, men, women, young people, and particularly those with a voice, who are willing to stand-up to influence decision-makers, and help support individuals and families, so that we can live together in a safe and integrated society.

    ——————
    Hamira Khan is the Scottish Conservatives candidate for Glasgow East.


         
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    Filed in: Islamists, Religion






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    1. MiriamBinder — on 5th January, 2010 at 11:10 AM  

      Wizards first rule: People will believe anything either because they want it to be true or because they fear it may be true.

      No where is that rule more exemplified then with the Islamophobes.

    2. halima — on 5th January, 2010 at 11:17 AM  

      Good post. I woke to hear the voice of this god awful tragedy of an individual on radio.

      I read an article on comment is free today where Medhi Hassan wtote about this:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jan/04/anjum-choudary-wootton-bassett

      Think he makes a point which run through my head: If Anjum Choudary wants publicity why doesn’t he take some empty coffins and demonstrate through the streets of Kabul?

      He doesn’t represent Muslims. Nor does he represent the anti-war movement.

      Today for the first time I heard him on the radio and felt the same disgust as I do when I hear the head of the BNP speak - that arrogance to air offensive views never mind what anyone else thinks - yet claim to speak for many.

      Oh and before the Muslim-hating trolls hit the thread don’t start saying this Anjem Choudhury’s views are valid because we shouldnt treat Muslims as a homogenous group - and if we do, that makes us racist.

    3. cjcjc — on 5th January, 2010 at 11:40 AM  

      You might want to work on those college ISOC’s too: see if they might want to invite fewer “radicals” along to speak.

    4. Hermes123 — on 5th January, 2010 at 12:02 PM  

      As long as Muslims generally continue to believe their religion is superior to all others (and that others should be converted)…this sort of madness will continue. And Islamophobes will continue to find fuel for their fires.

    5. bananabrain — on 5th January, 2010 at 12:08 PM  

      in that case, hamira, can we count on your support for the “PANTS TO THE BEARDS OF TERROR” campaign?

      http://www.spittoon.org/archives/4566

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    6. Effendi — on 5th January, 2010 at 12:11 PM  

      :-)

    7. Dalbir — on 5th January, 2010 at 12:42 PM  

      Families in the UK have suffered just as much as the innocent Afghani families.

      Sorry I think this is bullshit. Infinitely more innocent Afghan civilians have died in the conflict than Brits. If we include Iraq, the amount of deaths and severe wounds that have occured directly and indirectly because of the invasions is infinitely larger on the Muslim side compared to the tiny amount of British soldiers (and civilians) who have lost their lives or have been injured.

      Plus it is a soldiers convenant to accept what going to war entails, including their death and injury in contrast to the civilians, who never volunteered for this shit.

    8. halima — on 5th January, 2010 at 1:15 PM  

      Dalbir

      It is true that more civiilians have died from this war, and someone wrote recently ( I think it was Paul Kennedy in his pieice on why we must leave Afghanistan) that the war on terror has now gone on longer than WWI and WWII.

      However, i think when people die they cease to become innocent or guilty in death. The circumstances of the death are, after all, socially constructed, rules are made up as to what is legitimate and what isn’t. If you’re a mother losing a son in London or Kabul, the loss is the same, whatever the origins of the conflict. Yes, I accept that it’s much harder to absorb this truth if you’re a civilian than a soldier, but i wonder if the loss is any greater or less.

    9. suresh — on 5th January, 2010 at 1:39 PM  

      Dear Hamira,

      Im glad that you distance yourself from Anjem Choudary and Al-Muhajiroun groups — we certainly need more vocal people like you. And i applaud your for trying to engage

      However, you are not able to write a critical piece — without getting on your soapbox to highlight predictably the wrongs you believe exist.

      And that is where i started to YAWN.

      1. WHY would you disagree with the war in Afghanistan? (because its an Islamic country? because its Populist?)
      - Isn’t that were the Taliban enforced its barbaric practices? (music, reading, culture, women?)
      - Wasn’t it that Taliban that bombed the ‘Buddha of Bamyan’ — deeming it un-Islamic, simultaneously wiping out 2000-years of culture?
      - Isn’t that where Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden operates?
      - Was that not the HQ from where the 9/11 plot was hatched?
      * Sadly we all have short memories of what happened in 2001.*

      2. Its not the BNP and Al-Muhajiroun that seeks to divide Muslims from Britain.
      - Its the social ‘externalisation’ of Islam on majority populations that creates division.
      - Islam believes in oneness of humanity — but NOT secular oneness of humanity.

      3. Islam DOES NOT mean Peace. It means SUBMISSION.
      - Im sorry your counter-argument for Islam is very weak.
      -Please stop repeating that its a religion of love, respect and forgiveness.

      Islam IS what it IS. It not some theocratic or philosophical definition but is best defined by how it manifests — and that is for everyone around the world to see.

      There are poor, uneducated, disenfranchised, angry people all over the world — but somehow the people who follow Islam all too often fall prey to a much uglier manifestation.

    10. Sarah AB — on 5th January, 2010 at 2:49 PM  

      I thought this was a good post - thanks Hamira. @Hermes123 - I’m sure many Christians (and others) think their religion is the best one and want to convert others. But although I’ve sometimes had Christians try to convert me no Muslim (admittedly I know fewer Muslims than Christians) has ever tried to do so. @Suresh - surely very many people are opposed to the war in Afghanistan. I’m not sure, to be honest, what I think about it but surely one can be absolutely horrified by the actions of the Taliban and still not be sure that the war is right - ie one might feel sure that it is doomed to fail in its goals even if one sympathises with the goals.

    11. sabinaahmed — on 5th January, 2010 at 3:00 PM  

      Am so pleased to read this, as I was dismayed to hear yesterday on the BBC`s radio Five live, the irrational rantings of this man being quoted again and agian. I rang the radio station and suggested that it will be far better for the BBC to engage with someone from that organisation who can engage in a resonable debate,rather than foam at the mouth.
      I feel that he is hauled out again and again because his extreme views add a certain something to the phone ins/discussion and attract an equally rabid response.
      I agree that his views are extreme and they should be aired and censored,as long as it is not assumed that many agree or share his opinions.

    12. platinum786 — on 5th January, 2010 at 3:03 PM  

      Suresh I’d like to address why I and some other Muslims oppose the Afghan war.

      WHY would you disagree with the war in Afghanistan? (because its an Islamic country? because its Populist?)
      – Isn’t that were the Taliban enforced its barbaric practices? (music, reading, culture, women?)
      – Wasn’t it that Taliban that bombed the ‘Buddha of Bamyan’ — deeming it un-Islamic, simultaneously wiping out 2000-years of culture?

      Indeed the taliban government were a bunch of savages. However firstly we must consider whether it is even correct to invade countries to replace governments we don’t agree with. Nobody is invading communist China.

      Also assume for a minute that it is right to do so, assume for a minute that the Taliban are indeed completely reprehensible, why fight a war in Afghanistan to remove them, when the ideology they preach is being printed in books in Saudi Arabia, the home of the wahhabi.

      Also look at the alternative we are supporting. Are they any better? Have they commited any lesser crimes against the Afghan people? Are you aware of the record the Karzai family has in the drugs business? Are you aware the Karzai government has legislated that under Afghan law it is impossible to rape your wife?

      Also are you aware that the Babri Masjid which was destroyed in India in 1992 was built in 1527?

      Are you aware that the Al Aqsa Masjid, which Israel wants to tear down to build the temple of Solomon on was built in the year 685 CE. It was built on the site of an even older temple which was torn down in 586 BCE.

      Reason enough to invade a country?

      – Isn’t that where Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden operates?
      – Was that not the HQ from where the 9/11 plot was hatched?
      * Sadly we all have short memories of what happened in 2001.*

      You’ll find the 911 plot was developed in Hamburg Germany and finalised in the USA. Indeed the man behind the idea was in Afghanistan. He was also in Sudan and offered to the CIA on a plate by Sudanese security during the Clinton era.

      Has the war stopped Al Queda? Has the war defeated Al queda? What effect has the war had on terrorism? What role did the Taliban play in 911? Is there even evidence to suggest the Taliban were aware of 911? The Taliban were even willing to hand over OBL to KSA had they been provided the evidence themselves.

      You can describe Islam as what you want, but the war on the extremists of Islam, is being waged by equally extreme people, people who call their god the Dollar or Zionism.

    13. platinum786 — on 5th January, 2010 at 3:04 PM  

      doh, no edit feature…

    14. Dalbir — on 5th January, 2010 at 3:05 PM  

      If you’re a mother losing a son in London or Kabul, the loss is the same, whatever the origins of the conflict. Yes, I accept that it’s much harder to absorb this truth if you’re a civilian than a soldier, but i wonder if the loss is any greater or less.

      Halima

      Unless they are simple, the parents of all soldiers must accept the possibility of their child’s death. They usually have their nationalist ’cause’.

      The random death of a civilian via a foreign military is infinitely more complex to reconcile. I’m not saying that one experiences less grief than the other, but the lack of explicit willing involvement in a conflict, makes one death sadder than the other in my eyes. It’s even worse in traditional societies who usually have no state safety net in the event of a loss of a breadwinner.

      All in all, the west needs to stop sticking their hooter in foreign lands with an eye on resources and if required, they should cough up what suppliers are demanding, or find alternatives. Instead of the sneaky puppet propping nonsense that is a standard for whitey. This is the real cause of much of the conflict going on against the Muslim nations. They (whites) interfere, some Muslims get hacked off and attack their infrastructure in retaliation. And so goeth the cycle.

      Plus both sides have elements that are obsessed with hegemony in their own specific ways. Until the driving forces in each camp give this up, we can expect nothing less than conflict.

    15. Dalbir — on 5th January, 2010 at 3:12 PM  

      PS - I couldn’t care a toss if Taliban was making women wear bedsheets and generally being savage, this in itself is no reason to attack them.

      Isn’t this just whitey trying to foist his own culture around the place?

    16. Shakeel Ahmed — on 5th January, 2010 at 3:18 PM  

      “They (whites) interfere, some Muslims get hacked off and attack their infrastructure in retaliation”

      “Isn’t this just whitey trying to foist his own culture around the place?”

      No racism on PP, no sireee

      No white muslims? No black or asian soldiers or politicians, its just all down to the Gora…

      Pathetic

    17. bananabrain — on 5th January, 2010 at 3:38 PM  

      Are you aware that the Al Aqsa Masjid, which Israel wants to tear down to build the temple of Solomon on was built in the year 685 CE. It was built on the site of an even older temple which was torn down in 586 BCE.

      i don’t know which is worse, your ignorance or your attitude. construction on the second Temple on the Temple mount, or mount moriah to give it its original biblical name was in fact begun about 70-odd years after the destruction of the first Temple (the Temple built by solomon) in 586bce, when the jews were permitted to return from babylon by cyrus the great. it was expanded by the roman client king herod the great and then destroyed by the romans in 70ce after the first jewish-roman war. the Temple, referred to in the Torah as “the place that G!D Chooses”, is centred on the “foundation stone” (see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_Stone ) which may (or may not, depending on whose measurements you use) be the site of:

      a) the Creation of the world
      b) the binding of isaac by abraham
      c) the Holy of Holies - the site where the ark of the covenant was kept.
      d) the place from which muhammad ascended to the heavens

      it is thus the holiest site in the world to jews and (unfortunately for us) has a large and beautiful mosque built over it, which (fortunately for muslims) we are reluctant to harm, for many reasons some of which include:

      a) only loonies like the Temple mount faithful think it would be a good idea
      b) we could be wrong about the measurements
      c) we can’t agree on whether it’s rebuilding the Temple that brings the messiah, or the other way round
      d) there are various ways that have been suggested of rebuilding the Temple without harming the mosque, which deserve looking into.

      one thing is for sure, a sizeable proportion of the world’s jewish population, including myself, prays three times a day for the rebuilding of the Temple (may it come speedily in our days) and a restoration of sacrifices and we do not approve of the strong tendency in the muslim world to try and make out that the jewish connection to this spot is a lie, or to propagandise about how “israel wants to tear down the masjid”. this is, not to put too fine a point on it, a load of bollocks, put about by the sort of idiots that use israel and jews as a distraction from the very real problems the islamic world has to face if it is ever going to make anything of itself.

      You can describe Islam as what you want, but the war on the extremists of Islam, is being waged by equally extreme people, people who call their god the Dollar or Zionism.

      mine is neither, am i still allowed to declare open season on sheikh chuddie?

      doh, no edit feature…

      i think we’ve all said that about most of the things you’ve ever posted.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    18. platinum786 — on 5th January, 2010 at 3:42 PM  

      Get off your high horse, you can have a go at whoever you like, i don’t actually know who sheikh chuddies is, but go crazy.

      My point was specifically towards the arguements presented by Suresh towards the Afghanistan war.

      I don’t know the history of which temple came first and what came next etc, all i know is that site that they call the temple mount, has a mosque and a church on it (i think) and a wall, and that wall is part of an old jewish temple.

      That’s all i know…

    19. Sarah AB — on 5th January, 2010 at 3:50 PM  

      Some people have wondered whether Anjem Choudhary is a recruiting sergeant for the BNP - Dalbir inspires the same kind of speculation!

    20. bananabrain — on 5th January, 2010 at 3:59 PM  

      i don’t actually know who sheikh chuddies is

      the title of this piece should give you a clue. i know you could do with one.

      My point was specifically towards the arguements presented by Suresh towards the Afghanistan war.

      all of which, according to you, can be answered by the phrase “blame the jews”, it would appear.

      I don’t know the history of which temple came first and what came next etc, all i know is that site that they call the temple mount, has a mosque and a church on it (i think) and a wall, and that wall is part of an old jewish temple.

      it is the western wall not of “an old jewish temple”, but of *the* jewish Temple - your ignorance of this is the equivalent of a statement that the vatican is “an area in rome with a lot of churches in it”, or that the ka’aba in mecca is “an old muslim shrine”. if that’s your level of insight, it explains a great deal about your understanding of the arab-israeli conflict.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    21. Dalbir — on 5th January, 2010 at 4:17 PM  

      #16

      No racism on PP, no sireee

      I stopped giving a hoot after the BBC and Prince Harry thought calling people ‘p*ki’ was fair game.

      No white muslims? No black or asian soldiers or politicians, its just all down to the Gora…

      Are you living in la la land? Why are giving the tokens undue weight? Who initiated the wars? You see loads of blacks, asians and ‘white muslims’ involved? And even if some were, weren’t they just standard chumchay?

      Pathetic

      So’s your mum. Just messing….lol

      Seriously though, you seem to be blinkered to the whole racial dimension of what is going on. But that is cool, it’s your people getting shafted. React how you want.

    22. halima — on 5th January, 2010 at 4:22 PM  

      Dalbir

      I don’t disagree with your sentiments, I was just trying to reflect on death itself - without the politics. But you are right , 100%, death in a society without any safety nets - and the trauma and knock-on complications this brings, is harder to bear for the family.

      Suresh and Platinum786

      I don’t think it’s Muslims who think th war in Afghanistan is wrong - I do believe there are some Muslims who believe it was the just course to take at the time. However, arguments aside, I think it’s any day now that we’re all going to have to call it a day in Afghanistan.

      I think the decision’s been made already actually, it’s just not clear how we get out. I give it 6 months.

      I attach the link to the Paul Kennedy article from the FT a few days ago where the distinguished Yale professor tells us to leave, leave and leave.

      http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cb49b92a-f4af-11de-9cba-00144feab49a.html

      “Yet the nagging question remains: is taking the fight to the high, snow-covered passes of Pushtunistan a do-able strategy? Or will the Obama administration find itself, like so many other governments throughout history, pursuing a search for a victory that is not attainable – or, at least, not recognisable as a victory? Are the president’s gifted speech-writers already thinking about the alternative texts that need to be at hand during the mid-term elections next November, when the snows are filling the mountain passes of the distant Hindu Kush? If not, they should be.”

      Wasn’t it the Chinese war historian who basically said don’t start a battle you can’t win. Whatever the merits of the battle.

    23. Dalbir — on 5th January, 2010 at 4:24 PM  

      Some people have wondered whether Anjem Choudhary is a recruiting sergeant for the BNP – Dalbir inspires the same kind of speculation!

      Just to clear up any doubt Sarah. I say Anjem and every other Islamic fundamentalist can f**k themselves as can every last white jerk supremacist, whether they have the courage to be open with their bullshit or prefer the usual lurking around insidiously lark.

      You get it now?

    24. lfc4life — on 5th January, 2010 at 4:25 PM  

      suresh at post 9.

      I take it you are indian apologies if mistaken, you can apply your arguments against hinduism how many mosques and churches have the hindu zealots destroyed recently in India not to mention the thousands put to death because they are different caste or religion?

      Personally i feel ashamed of what the UK government does in other lands they are not there for security, they are there for strategic interests the very words of our defence minister bob ainsworth. This is complete U turn when we first invaded when we was told it was all about getting mr bn ladin!

    25. halima — on 5th January, 2010 at 4:25 PM  

      Platinum786

      Apologies, i hadn’t meant to imply that you stated all Muslims oppose the war in Afghanistan, I was getting confused with the post you were responding to.

    26. Dalbir — on 5th January, 2010 at 4:34 PM  

      Sunny, what happened to the edit function?

      My spelling is way too atrocious to live without it. Put it back!!!!!

    27. Bill — on 5th January, 2010 at 4:44 PM  

      ‘I have been appalled by the ugly stereotypes of Muslims in our media and elsewhere. Ironically I have come to realise, how can I blame the stereotypes when all we hear in the news is about the mad ones. We need more positive role models in public life.’
      The thing is that these role models do not exist. Moderate muslims need to be much more organised and much more strident in attacking the fanatics than they are. At the moment the silence from the moderates is deafening and that is leading many ordinary people in Britain to conclude they tacitly support the extremists, whatever your protestations here.

    28. bananabrain — on 5th January, 2010 at 4:54 PM  

      bill,

      they exist all right - they’re just not infesting the media with constant streams of beastly twaddle. rather, they’re getting on with their lives like normal people, doing their jobs, sending their kids to school and making the dinner. to paraphrase the chinese proverb, it’s a large field, full of wheat, but all you’ll hear are the crickets.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    29. Sunny — on 5th January, 2010 at 5:35 PM  

      edit function back in - not sure if it was messing up the comments section yesterday

    30. MiriamBinder — on 5th January, 2010 at 6:26 PM  

      You took the words right out of my mouth Bananabrain. Thank you.

    31. Kulvinder — on 5th January, 2010 at 7:01 PM  

      I appreciate the sentiment of the article, but as Dalbir said i disagree that british families of soldiers could be said to have ’suffered’ as much as the afghans.

      Soldiers volunteer to do a job, theres a quasi-american hysteria developing in this country about appreciating the work they do; whilst i don’t wish them any harm i abhor the mawkish praise that surrounds the military.

      I admire a soldier who admits he simply enjoys the way of life his profession provides and that the dangers that exist were known to him - as they were to everyone else - before he signed up; on the other hand i find those that seek to wring emotion from the deaths of those trained to kill insufferable.

      We’re now prosecuting those that call soldiers ‘baby killers’; oh what a rough tough bunch these men that we send to fight are, even calling them names hurts them.

      Matthew Parris

    32. Kulvinder — on 5th January, 2010 at 7:32 PM  

      nb completely off topic but has anyone else been getting random error messages from the times website? might just be opera

    33. Ravi Naik — on 5th January, 2010 at 8:06 PM  

      might just be opera

      Yes, I would have guessed you use Opera. :)

    34. Dalbir — on 5th January, 2010 at 8:16 PM  

      We’re now prosecuting those that call soldiers ‘baby killers’; oh what a rough tough bunch these men that we send to fight are, even calling them names hurts them.

      For God’s sake don’t goad the wasps like this! It may stimulate them to get embroiled in even more more stupidity. Spare us……and them.

    35. comrade — on 5th January, 2010 at 8:25 PM  

      The families of the dead soldiers, should not allow their beloved ones to be paraded on the streets of Briton as hero’s by the Government, which makes political mileage out of their deaths, they should have a private funeral. If they are going to do this, then they must except counter reaction. I don’t support any extremist groups, but I also don’t support the occupation of Afganistan. 400 innocent Afgans have been killed by the Western forces, British soldiers must be responsible for some of these deaths. If our boys were dying for the liberation of Palestine I can assure you thousand of Muslims and non Muslims would be lining the Streets of Briton.

    36. Daria — on 5th January, 2010 at 9:02 PM  

      I wonder could the author of the article (or other muslims here) tell where exactly Anjem Choudry is wring in his understanding of Islam?

      not just “he preaches hate and this is why he is wrong, that’s all” but “Anjem insist on … - but the Quran says the following …”

      I think he is consistent non-secular muslim

    37. Don — on 5th January, 2010 at 10:26 PM  

      If our boys were dying for the liberation of Palestine I can assure you thousand of Muslims and non Muslims would be lining the Streets of Briton.

      We can always count on you, Comrade.

    38. Shamit — on 6th January, 2010 at 1:16 AM  

      “The objective of the precession Choudary claims, is to highlight the “real cost of war”. I can’t say that I personally agree with the war in Afghanistan either,”"

      That sounds to me like putting a spin on Choudhary’s line and accepting his argument.

      The author is running for public office on the manifesto of a political party which might be forming the next Government. Her leader’s position on why we need to remain in Afghanistan is very clear and is a clear contrast to her own views.

      So, going into Balkans was wrong as well? Who cares if Muslims were being slaughtered and butchered by psycho racists?

      Or is it only okay if non muslims are killing muslims and then the West and the world powers should step in?

      Otherwise like in Saddam’s case, it was okay for him to gas and kill Muslim kurds - but as he himself was a Muslim - I guess attacking him is a problem.

      When a deranged, racist and psycopath fool kills a Muslim woman in Germany then there is outcry from everyone and rightly bloody so - but the silence of our media and the “intellectually superior” commentators (such as this wanna be MP) when it comes to regular Taliban attrocities like blowing up girls’ schools in Afghanistan is simply mindboggling.

      I guess highlighting those does not get them much votes.

      And for the record the British and other international stakeholders are also building infrastructure, schools, hospitals, ICT as well as delivering some of the key services like generating electricity and delivering healthcare. So spare me the real cost of war bullshit.

      One can argue about specific attacks which has killed civilians and can deride the strategy and tactics - but can’t agree with us being there. That is bizzare.

      Bringing up Anjem’s argument and agreeing with him in principle - What was that? A bad attempt at trying to get some antiwar votes from the Scottish lefties or a “Dianne Abbot” style attack of “genuine convictions”.

      But I am told a PR guru has written this and that paragraph reeks of a real amateur mistake. Was it really a mistake? One has to wonder.

      I am so glad it was Sayeeda Warsi on the panel for the Tories on Question Time with BNP racist supremo than this post’s author.
      *****************************
      Halima -

      I disagree. We would stay far longer than 6 months - because its not only about Afghanistan -its also about Pakistan which is fighting for its survival as a modern nation. School children there are worried about not coming home due to attacks on their schools.

      If coalition forces leave and that strengthens the resolve of the Taliban and they march into Islamabad and take control of Pakistan - then what?

      I respectfully disagree with your assessment.

    39. halima — on 6th January, 2010 at 6:34 AM  

      ‘We would stay far longer than 6 months’

      Shamit

      Thanks . I know you and others here have long maintained we should stay in - and have always outlined reasons why. I don’t disagree about what will happen if we pulled out.

      I am merely stating our limitations on the war in Afghanistan, not making an argument about whether we should stay in or not. I just don’t think we are going to be able to stay on longer - for practical reasons. I don’t have a chrystal ball or the science to prove it. But I believe that it’s any day now when we pull out, and I think it will be before the next November for sure, if not earlier.

      Personally, I agree with your assessment that Pakistan is the bigger prize for international stability. Our resources are limited - and our continuing stance on Afghanistan chips away at our capacity to focus on Pakistan. That’s pretty much the argument that Paul Kennedy is making - OK, he’s only a historian of empires and wars, but a pretty good one for me.

    40. Dalbir — on 6th January, 2010 at 8:35 AM  

      Personally, I agree with your assessment that Pakistan is the bigger prize for international stability. Our resources are limited – and our continuing stance on Afghanistan chips away at our capacity to focus on Pakistan.

      Pakistan’s recent history of approaching their issues with a strong ‘cap in hand’ stance isn’t too promising either.

      One almosts gets the feeling that they wouldn’t mind keeping the pot boiling seeing as it profits the administration so much.

    41. Balla — on 6th January, 2010 at 8:49 AM  

      Hey lfc4life,

      Why don’t you give numbers. Yes , Muslims always talk like they are always victims.
      Now ask this thing? Is NATO there for strategic reasons? If NATO is not there Pakistan and Saudi Arabia would have been there.
      How does one explain those horrible suicide attacks in Pakistan?
      Now what will happen if NATO pulls out? Again go back little in history and ask what happened when Soviets pulled out? Well it gave birth to Al-Qaeda. It validates Islamic Extremists claim that theirs is a correct path and proof of that is infidels defeated in Afghanistan. There will be unrest in many Countries.
      Islamic or Non Islamic. Aim of those fighters will be to turn each country in to proper Islamic society. Do you know how much Algeria has suffered because of those who came back from jihad against Soviets.
      Now Anjum Chau**** is not a Muslim extremist. He is just Muslims. Only his actions or polemics does’t suit.
      Now people say Muslim Fundamentalists? What do you mean by that? What are their beliefs? If you think properly you will get answers. Those explosions in Pakistan are going because those militants think Pakistan is not sufficiently Islamic.
      MiriamBinder says something about Islamophobes. I will not say much. Lets just look whats happening In Islamic countries. Religious minorities. They are disappearing.
      What is the reason for this? Ask yourself?

    42. comrade — on 6th January, 2010 at 2:51 PM  

      I am merely stating our limitations on the war in Afghanistan, not making an argument about whether we should stay in or not. I just don’t think we are going to be able to stay on longer – for practical reasons. I don’t have a chrystal ball or the science to prove it.

      Halima, you have history to prove it, all occupying forces have been sent home packing, six months, six years or six decades.

    43. suresh — on 6th January, 2010 at 8:01 PM  

      platinum876 — thanks for your comments — my thoughts:

      “Indeed the taliban government were a bunch of savages. However firstly we must consider whether it is even correct to invade countries to replace governments we don’t agree with. Nobody is invading communist China.”

      - Yes as human beings we have a moral obligation. The ills of society are not because of those that cause the problems, but by majority that quietly standby. To let the Taliban run rampage would only further seed fundamentalism within the region (including Pakistan). If fundamentalism is a cancer — you don’t let it grow.

      - I will accept that the sponsorship and funding of madrasas and hate material by the Saudi’s hasn’t helped — nor that Pakistan has blindly allowed them the fester.

      - I am not aware of the corrupt nature of the Karzai government — i will have to take your words on face value. I would assume that he was more palatable than some Taliban coalition.

    44. suresh — on 6th January, 2010 at 8:07 PM  

      ifc4life

      History will show that India has been a peaceful nation across the millenias and has been at the receiving end of centuries of hatred, brutality and wars.

      She has fostered the persecuted cultures and religions of the world — the Syrian Jews were protected in India from Roman tyranny, as is the Dalai Lama from persecution in Tibet sought shelter in India- as was the Grand Zarostrian culture or Persia.

      Don’t even dare try and compare a bunch of loony hindu nationalists as your counter-argument for the troubles in the muslim world - or in particular the mess in afghanistan/pakistan.



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