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    Sex, drugs and British Muslims


    by Sunny on 7th August, 2006 at 10:37 pm    

    It’s then that it hits me: This is so much bigger than Francis. In a culture where cheap and portable video technology lets everyone play at stardom, and where America’s voyeuristic appetite for reality television seems insatiable, teenagers, like the ones in this club, see cameras as validation. “Most guys want to have sex with me and maybe I could meet one new guy, but if I get filmed everyone could see me,” Bultema says. “If you do this, you might get noticed by somebody—to be an actress or a model.”

    I ask her why she wants to get noticed. “You want people to say, ‘Hey, I saw you.’ Everybody wants to be famous in some way. Getting famous will get me anything I want. If I walk into somebody’s house and said, ‘Give me this,’ I could have it.”

    Above the dance floor, the stage is full of girls who rotate, twist and shimmy their way up and down three strip poles. One of them is Jannel Szyszka, a petite 18-year-old who prances around the stage like a star. At her feet, a crowd of hundreds is gyrating to the pounding house music. Dozens of polo-shirted boys shout up to her, making requests like “shake your titties” and “get crunk” (meaning crazy-drunk).

    So writes Clare Hoffman in a brilliant feature for the Los Angeles Times, published yesterday about Joe Francis, the guy behind the ‘Girls Gone Wild’ soft-porn franchise in America that has made him millions.

    Let’s examine this article in context to the (quite annoying) documentary presented by Jon Snow today on Channel 4.

    How many people would find comments contained in that article and the lifestyle that these people lead bizarre? Would you approve of it? Or to put it alternatively… how many readers of the Daily Mail, arguably this country’s most influential paper, would agree with those views? I suspect many wouldn’t. Does this mean that an aversion to complete sexual liberalism means you are not integrating?

    That is certainly what Jon Snow seemed to suggest in his doc. Wow, there are conservative Muslims who don’t believe in sex before marriage? Who don’t approve of homosexuality? Oh my god, there’s going to be race-riots next! Hmmm.

    I’m not a conservative of course and have no problems with alcohol or sex before marriage. But I find it bizarre that when such scenarios are presented to Muslims, there is this expectation that they will happily agree on TV that: ‘yeah man, sex is great innit! Don’t tell my mum I said that though!’

    The flip side is this. Hizb ut-Tahrir are not as significant now but they are well-versed in using such examples above to say that “western civilisation” (as if that’s one monolithic block) is becoming immoral and the only way to live as proper Muslims is in their own Khalifah.

    This ideology has gained more traction amongst more Muslims since the infamous War on Terror because it fits in with their victim mentality and feeling that the west is out to get Muslims. So is it really that surprising to find idiot ‘Chavlims’ who say: “Yeah man I don’t fink dis democracy stuff works innit… we should all be livin’ in da Islamic system coz that’s da only way we get propa peace and justice innit.

    There are lots of contradictions here too. Hizb ut-Tahrir types say Middle Eastern countries aren’t really Islamic countries and are more dictatorships propped up by the west. If that’s entirely true then why aren’t there popular uprisings against those dictators instead of marches against Danish cartoons? Why aren’t the imams and muftis regularly invited to this country speaking out against those dictatorships? Maybe because they prefer the system as it is?

    Anyway. Jon Snow simply regurgitated the moral panic in his documentary that just because there are conservative Muslims, they have “stopped integrating”. What’s the yardstick to measure this? Just because 19 year old Heena does not believe in sex before marriage (well, she is still young and she definitely won’t admit it on TV) nor approve of homosexuality - it means Britain is doomed?

    The problem is insecurity on both sides. Some liberals want all Muslims to sign up to their view of the world otherwise multi-culturalism has apparently failed. And we have young Muslims struggling to differentiate themselves because they believe it gives their religion more legitimacy. Even the MCB admit Britain has the best climate to let Muslims practice their religion freely.

    If Channel 4 wants to make more documentaries about ‘Chavlims’ then fine, go ahead. But there was no context to the programme. It was lazy journalism. It was rather like me finding a few girls like the ones mentioned above to show how Britain was going to descend into a cesspit of STDs and rampant alcoholism.



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    96 Comments   |  


    1. leon — on 7th August, 2006 at 11:00 pm  

      I think the first part of my comment on the other thread fits well here, so I’ll repeat:

      …the lack of statistical context, he should have been more rigorous in comparing ‘Muslim’ attitudes to British attitudes in general. Also, there were no religious comparisons, how do the figures compare with people from other religions for example?

      I really think that’s a big problem with the programme the sample they based it on. Granted their study could have shown the things they ‘explored’ but I doubt it and as I say above where is the comparative data? How do we contextualise the info presented in the programme without resorting to lazy tabloidesque reactions?

    2. Kismet Hardy — on 7th August, 2006 at 11:25 pm  

      Can’t read. Taking drugs and shagging. That seems relevant but my keyboard is getting yucky

    3. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 7th August, 2006 at 11:33 pm  

      Sunny,

      “Even the MCB admit Britain has the best climate to let Muslims practice their religion freely.”

      I completely disagree. With money and socio-economic mobility comes more freedom. Muslims in America have them all.

      “Just because 19 year old Heena does not believe in sex before marriage (well, she is still young and she definitely won’t admit it on TV) nor approve of homosexuality - it means Britain is doomed?”

      This comment proves my point above. Because America is a pretty religious conservative country where ideas like those of Heena are at the very least mainstream, she will not be viewed as being fundamentalist or unintergrated because thats the message of many mainstream voices here. Again America is probably the best place for Muslims outside of Muslim countries, even unIslamic Muslim countries.

      Secondly, crunk is a dance move/style and doesnt mean to get drunk.

    4. Sunny — on 7th August, 2006 at 11:50 pm  

      Because America is a pretty religious conservative country where ideas like those of Heena are at the very least mainstream, she will not be viewed as being fundamentalist or unintergrated because thats the message of many mainstream voices here. Again America is probably the best place for Muslims outside of Muslim countries, even unIslamic Muslim countries.

      I may grudginly admit that there is an element of truth in what you say. But it’s also that many Muslim immigrants who went to America were richer than the ones who came to Britain, hence the income disparity.

      I understand your point about it being a religiously conservative country and I agree. I did make that point in the other thread too. Conservative Americans aren’t seen as a threat to “western civilisation” in a way that conservative Muslims are. But that is more to do with racism (that we have to counter) than the local climate.

    5. don — on 8th August, 2006 at 12:32 am  

      Sunny,

      Excellent post. You’ve nailed the absurd virtue-vice dichotomy.

    6. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 8th August, 2006 at 1:54 am  

      Sunny,

      I understand this is a blog but am I getting the right impression? Is this all that is talked about in Britian these days?

    7. Amir — on 8th August, 2006 at 2:16 am  

      Bikhair - Sunny’s got an anal-retentive [borderline anal aggressive] infatuation with Moslems… I mean that in the nicest possible way. He denounces Community Leaders for trying to ventriloquize the Moslem Diaspora, but spends 99% of his own blog-space doing exactly the same thing.

      He’s pretty pissed off with Jon Snow’s okay-ish documentary, yet every Moslem I have spoken to hitherto (…ultra-conservative as well as and liberal/cultural Moslems) thought it was an accurate reflection of their own communities, values and existential attitudes to Britain and Britishness.

      I, myself, would have to agree.

    8. Kismet Hardy — on 8th August, 2006 at 2:26 am  

      It’s Muslim not moslem

      Daily Mailer

    9. Kismet Hardy — on 8th August, 2006 at 2:34 am  

      :P

    10. Bayah — on 8th August, 2006 at 3:29 am  

      And again Sunny’s off on his Crusade….

    11. Amir — on 8th August, 2006 at 3:41 am  

      Kismet,

      It’s ‘Moslem’… fool. ;-)

      You Western ignoramus!! Bloody hell… tisk tisk.

      Next time you’ll be telling me that the proper way to spell Muhammad is ‘Mohammed’!!

    12. mirax — on 8th August, 2006 at 6:36 am  

      Agree that it is simplistic and quite ignorant to characterise western -specifically British or american - culture as nothing but promiscuity and hedonism. Springbreak highjinks co-exist with xtian virginity pledges; San Francisco bathhouses with midwest gay hatred and so on. Concerns will be vociferously expressed about either extreme(cue the recent CiF debate signalling deep unease about raunch culture), depending on the interlocutor but it is a given that the social space remains free enough for the individual to make her choice.

      If young British muslims are increasingly making conservative choices, it is their prefect right to do so. It only becomes a problem if they are castigating or pressuring others who have taken to the kismet hardy lifestyle make the same choice as themselves. If such coercion exists, it is fair to highlight it. I presume the programme did not do so?

      Will it become a bigger problem if there is enough of the first constituency to campaign to legally restrict social freedoms via sharia (as in many muslim countries)? Well, sharia fetishists are not the only ones who want to change Britain’s political landscape- the marxists, anarchists and fascist far right want to do so as well- and as long as all these remain extremely tiny minorities, there is no need for panic. Just because the BNP is not going to take over in the foreseeable future does not mean that you stop monitoring its support base; likewise for sharia.

    13. mirax — on 8th August, 2006 at 6:50 am  

      When I saw the headline, I was struck because the Singapre Malay-muslim community has just launched a month long campaign against teenage sex, pregnancy and early marriage because the community has the highest incidence of these (as well as divorce, which is related directly to the early marriages) compared to the other ethnic groups. Socio-economic underachievement and problems like fragmented families, drug abuse (again most prevalent within this community) are all deemed to be a natural result of teenage hormones and prescription (based on the campaign) seems to be a call for abstinence and greater religiosity. This seems ironic to me because there has been greater religiosity in recent times and it seems not to have helped. There seems a great reluctance to help solve the problem by focussing on safe sex practice, ironic again, because this stems from religious conservatism.

    14. mirax — on 8th August, 2006 at 7:00 am  

      oh off track, but the best take on the Bricklane faux controversy so far, by way of the guardian letters page. Anyone know Ash Kotak?

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,1838630,00.html

    15. Roger — on 8th August, 2006 at 7:28 am  

      “Next time you’ll be telling me that the proper way to spell Muhammad is ‘Mohammed’!! ”
      Mahomet was goiod enough for Gibbon and Voltaire

    16. sonia — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:03 am  

      Good post sunny. and there are plenty of conservative english people around - though i daresay that doesn’t make the news headlines - ( and would probably surprise HuT who think “they” are ALL immoral and the same..heh heh)

      and when you say - “Hizb ut-Tahrir types say Middle Eastern countries aren’t really Islamic countries and are more dictatorships propped up by the west. If that’s entirely true then why aren’t there popular uprisings against those dictators instead of marches against Danish cartoons? Why aren’t the imams and muftis regularly invited to this country speaking out against those dictatorships? Maybe because they prefer the system as it is?”

      yep - exactly. precisely what i’ve always asked.

    17. Old Pickler — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:08 am  

      There is no problem with Muslims believing that homosexuality is wrong. However, there is a problem with them wanting to impose sharia law in the UK, believing that the July 7 attacks were justified and wanting laws banning criticism of their “prophet”.

      When their criticism of homosexuality or of sex before marriage includes honour killing and forced marriage, that is also a problem. The ninja/dalek outfit is also problematic for me.

      I noticed that, both in the opinions of the Muslims interviewed, and in the implicit disapproval of the girl’s lifestyle in this post, promiscuity only seems to be problematic when women indulge, not men.

    18. sonia — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:15 am  

      :-) Jon Snow could have been interviewing the ‘average’ american and found some fairly conservative views being expressed. some of the things i’ve heard : most common one - “gosh europeans’ are so affectionate with each other in public” - with reference to people kissing on the tube etc./university campuses. Sounded quite similar to what i’ve heard from some conservative asians.

    19. sonia — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:18 am  

      Ha don’t worry Old Pickler, there’s not much chance of Sharia law in britain, i’ll make a big fuss. ( and all the other feisty women i know..)

    20. sonia — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:25 am  

      Well the Govt. is very concerned about ‘rampant alcoholism’ especially to do with us women. We’ve been officially ticked off also for not having children when we’re younger. ** ooh dear**

      Sounds like maybe jon snow ought to be interviewing tony too? :-) i mean his kids go to ‘Catholic’ schools -Cherie won’t have them going to a non-religious school - that don’t sound like they’re ‘integrating’…

      just throwing a spanner into the works. like i’ve said before, the home office’s lovely publication clears up any confusion about this ‘integration’ business.

      and also about britain being ‘anglo-saxon’ - ha i should copy that page and send it off to my friend Samuel Huntingdon.

    21. sonia — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:27 am  

      Don’t worry OP - i’ve been called all sorts of things in my time. :-) it doesn’t faze me - i was thinking of putting up a blog post along the lines of..sonia ‘the hizbollah supporting zionist’ - i’m supposed to be both apparently. and of course i’ve stood upto a HuT group and said they were talking tosh and the poor dears couldn’t handle it. Ha that was a laugh.

    22. Old Pickler — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:29 am  

      I got called a leftie once, which is hilarious. I’ve also been compared to Melanie Phillips, which I naturally take as a compliment.

    23. Kismet Hardy — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:34 am  

      Ooh I fancy that Melanie Phillips I do. C’mere Pickler you minxX

    24. Sid — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:48 am  

      I’ve often been compared to Kofi Annan, which I take naturally take as a come on line.

    25. sonia — on 8th August, 2006 at 12:29 pm  

      “With money and socio-economic mobility comes more freedom. Muslims in America have them all.”

      ha ha that’s got to be the funniest thing i ever heard.

      muslims in america have it all - well maybe that’s why no one else has got any..

      heh hehe

    26. sonia — on 8th August, 2006 at 12:31 pm  

      Heh heh OP that must have made you laugh. I’ve been called a Communist and a Marxist so many times by our friend Indian Capitalist ( he’s posted here under the nick of ‘Amrevis’ i’ve fallen off my chair giggling quite a few times. I’ve had to go along with it for the sheer amusement it offers me..

    27. Uncleji — on 8th August, 2006 at 1:10 pm  

      Hizb ut-Tahrir types say Middle Eastern countries aren’t really Islamic countries and are more dictatorships propped up by the west. If that’s entirely true then why aren’t there popular uprisings against those dictators instead of marches against Danish cartoons? Why aren’t the imams and muftis regularly invited to this country speaking out against those dictatorships? Maybe because they prefer the system as it is?

      Pains me to say it that Jihadis R US do have a point.

      1) The mufti etc get appointed and paid by the local President for life/monarch. Protests against scribbles on paper are a easy of diverting attention away from domestic problems.

      2)A large number of Jihaditypes were given political asylum here during the 90’s because of a well founded fear of torture in their home countries, (the basis of the Londonstani tag).

      3) There was a Islamic (popularish) uprising in Syria in the early 80’s in Hama Syria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_Massacre which ended up in the place getting flattened.

    28. Uncleji — on 8th August, 2006 at 1:12 pm  

      Oops I didn’t mean to put in Hama that was nasty piece of work by both sides.

      A better example would be the “elections” in Egyt.

    29. Chris Stiles — on 8th August, 2006 at 2:25 pm  

      This is a false dichotomy - as ‘Girls Gone Wild’ is hardly a large part of mainstream behaviour.

      Dealing with your question - yes, a lot of (small c) conservative people would frown upon such behaviour. However it is important to both note the language that would be used, and the prescriptions that would be drawn. The language used by very conservative islamists would generally be very different, as would the prescriptions they draw - which would quite often be that of separation or mass societal change.

      The American example is also misleading. Yes, in aggregate Americans are a lot more religious, and they like to feel that their leaders are ‘fellow travellers’ - so much for an atheist being voted to high office - but they are only somewhat more socially conservative.

      There are american fundamentalists who are also highly socially conservative - communities like the Amish, the Mennonites and some Mormons. I assume you are not suggesting that any of these are a model that Muslims in the UK should adopt.

    30. AsifB — on 8th August, 2006 at 4:09 pm  

      Dude did someone say drugs. Where? Oh right..
      Not enough discussion of actual Muslim drug taking (hash, qat, horse they do a lot) or the inns and outs (fnnar fnnar) of pre-martial sex for my liking on this thread.

      Anyway Mirax (no. 12) - very interesting points

      OP (no.17) - OK I don’t want sharia law or ninja outfits imposed on anyone. But why does your generalisation “when their criticism of homosexuality or of sex before marriage includes honour killing and forced marriage, that is also a problem.” refer only to Muslims as if murder (which is what it should be called) does not occur in other ‘communities’

      Chris Stiles (no.29) you say that “Girls Gone Wild’ is hardly a large part of mainstream behaviour.” Isn’t that what Sunny meant by saying “It was rather like me finding a few girls like the ones mentioned above to show how Britain was going to descend into a cesspit of STDs and rampant alcoholism. ”

      Just because some ‘very conservative islamists demand seperation or mass societal change’ does not mean Muslims generally in the UK (or elsewhere) support them in practice.

    31. bananabrain — on 8th August, 2006 at 4:14 pm  

      i agree it’s a false dichotomy. i also think it’s amazing that jon snow didn’t manage to interview anyone who spoke decent grammatical english, considering how well-educated most muslims of my acquaintance are. no, it was all “innit” and “islam says, yeh, that”. chavlims, what a great word that is. the survey might well have been interesting, as well as representative, but we didn’t see anything approaching representatives of educated, middle-class islam. i mean, it’s not difficult to find half-arsed political views or incoherent, net-curtain-twitching “tch” members of the mary whitehouse brigade either here or in the states, but i suppose most of them are voting conservative or republican rather than labour, liberal or respect. what we saw here was not a lot different from those very scary people from that “god’s army” college. frankly, jon snow didn’t come across as terribly incisive. he seemed mildly bemused, verging on fuddy-duddyish. one point that did come across, though, was the free speech problem. nobody seems to have pointed out to all those demonstrators that their own right to protest is contingent upon other people’s right to publish rude cartoons. and worst of all was the pr coup handed to those goons at mpac, who came across as a slick, hip outfit, with nary a question on “well, if you think muslims aren’t being represented properly, what are you going to do when you represent them? blame everything on the zionists?”

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    32. Chris Stiles — on 8th August, 2006 at 4:34 pm  


      Chris Stiles (no.29) you say that “Girls Gone Wild’ is hardly a large part of mainstream behaviour.” Isn’t that what Sunny meant by saying “It was rather like me finding a few girls like the ones mentioned above to show how Britain was going to descend into a cesspit of STDs and rampant alcoholism.”

      Sure - but he was also using it as an example of behaviour that conservatives of all stripes would be united in condemning. However, to imply that there would be nothing different in the way in which they were condemning it is misleading.


      Just because some ‘very conservative islamists demand seperation or mass societal change’ does not mean Muslims generally in the UK (or elsewhere) support them in practice.

      Okay - so either what i describe is a problem, or it doesn’t exist or isn’t a problem. Which is it ? If it isn’t a problem why is Sunny intent on discussing it ? :-)

    33. Kismet Hardy — on 8th August, 2006 at 4:43 pm  

      “Not enough discussion of actual Muslim drug taking”

      What’s there to talk about? Come round my gaffe, start from class C and work all the way up to A, we’ll stare at a lava lamp all night and when you pass out, I’ll touch you

      I’m a Muslim and I have the drugs. Just lacking that someone to touch

      Genuine responses only Ref: SM69

    34. AsifB — on 8th August, 2006 at 5:09 pm  

      Chris S.(no32) : I guess conservatives will behave differently under different circumstances. If someone - whether Muslim or otherwise, comes from a tradtional rural extended family culture, they may be expected to have more rigid views than someone from a post industrial society.

      I’m sure there is a problem to be defined but its wrong to describe it as specifically Muslim and all that.

      Kismet(no 33): SM69 hmmm sixty nine.. sorry, I’m taken (to the cleaners by divorce lawyers. Can’t even afford a puff od Leytonstone Green.

    35. Chris Stiles — on 8th August, 2006 at 5:49 pm  


      If someone - whether Muslim or otherwise, comes from a tradtional rural extended family culture, they may be expected to have more rigid views than someone from a post industrial society.

      I think you are being rather disingenuous. Rigid views are manifested in a multiplicity of ways.


      I’m sure there is a problem to be defined but its wrong to describe it as specifically Muslim and all that.

      Please set forth your own definition of ‘the problem’ as a means of moving this discussion on.

    36. AsifB — on 8th August, 2006 at 6:29 pm  

      Chris - I do not mean to be disingenuous. And don’t wish to appear a spokesperson for ‘rigid’ views either.

      If you want to go into societal norms, cultural expectations and sociolgical changes occurring with migration from traditonal rurual societies to atomised modern cities etc - This is probably the wrong forum.

      As for the ‘problem’ well that can be whatever you like - homophobia, forced marriage - if you look at socially conservatice people from similar backgrounds (eg; a Sikh/Hindu/Muslim from a traditional Indian village) you may get similar attitudes and policy expectations - wheras a Bible belt bigot in Kansas coming from a society where the mainstream culture is rather different - will guess what - express his or her rigidity (oo er missus) in different ways

      Enough now.I would much rather move on my discussion with Kismet.

    37. Chris Stiles — on 8th August, 2006 at 7:32 pm  


      As for the ‘problem’ well that can be whatever you like - homophobia, forced marriage - if you look at socially conservatice people from similar backgrounds (eg; a Sikh/Hindu/Muslim from a traditional Indian village).

      Right - this article and the documentary in the linked articles was, after all, triggered by some vague mutterings about societal norms.


      Enough now.I would much rather move on my discussion with Kismet.

      “If Channel 4 wants to make more documentaries about ‘Chavlims’ then fine, go ahead. But there was no context to the programme. It was lazy journalism.”.

    38. Jackie Brown — on 8th August, 2006 at 8:07 pm  

      Chavlims…. ha ha ha— gotta love this cyber slumming. Cheap, sometimes safe- and occasionally educational ;)

    39. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 8th August, 2006 at 8:24 pm  

      Old Pimple,

      “I noticed that, both in the opinions of the Muslims interviewed, and in the implicit disapproval of the girl’s lifestyle in this post, promiscuity only seems to be problematic when women indulge, not men.”

      Promiscuity shouldnt only be problematic when practiced by women but it should be considered MORE problematic when practiced by women. As I have stated here before, men and women are not the SAME. If you agree that they are eqaul fine but that doesnt mean they are the SAME.

      There are far greater consequences for a woman who practice that kind of lifestyle than for men. Be it pregnancy, STDs, and pyschological damage (no matter what her circle of friends will tell her, she will still be the slut and him the stud), it is dangerous for them too.

      IF a woman gets pregnant, she will be the one getting pregnant, not the man, and she may be the one getting an abortion, not the man, and if she keeps the child, what happens all too frequently in these types of situations is she will also take on the majority, the fast majority of the responsibility of raising that child with a, more often then not, reluctant father. I’ve seen it one million times before.

      In these situations a woman will she just how different she is from a man.

    40. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 8th August, 2006 at 8:28 pm  

      Old Pimple,

      Me: In these situations a woman will she just how different she is from a man.

      That should be “see.” And I should add that in these situations she may also SEE how uneqaul she is from a man.

    41. Old Pickler — on 8th August, 2006 at 8:51 pm  

      Bikhair, your ideas are out of the ark. Thanks to contraception, abortion, antibiotics and women’s liberation, the neanderthal attitudes to women that you gleefully mention are - or were - on their way out. Then along comes multiculturalism, with its worship of the primitive, and we’re back to square one.

      And you wonder why liberated women think Islam has no place in a civilised society?

    42. Sunny — on 8th August, 2006 at 9:53 pm  

      Old Pickler please stop infecting my posts with more bakwaas.

      bananabrain: i also think it’s amazing that jon snow didn’t manage to interview anyone who spoke decent grammatical english, considering how well-educated most muslims of my acquaintance are.

      exactly!

      Chris, you say: The language used by very conservative islamists would generally be very different, as would the prescriptions they draw - which would quite often be that of separation or mass societal change.

      Not really. You have to watch carefully here, and this is where I believe Jon Snow was being quite disingenuous and I worry about him. He asks a ‘Chavlim’ (the dude who he was sitting on a bench with and later felt silent when another brother came up to him and started berating him for talking rubbish and sponging off the state) - what do you think about certain behaviour. So the guy says he finds it repulsive. Then Snow asks him what would be the prescribed punishment in a Muslim state and the guy responds accordingly. The two are very different because in a non-Muslim state they have to live according to existing laws of course.

      But in the mind of the viewer it creates the impression this is how they’d like to behave here, when the guy is just stating (an outdated version of) what he sees as Shariah.

      Another point about stoning or lashing etc. You do know you get lashed in places like Singapore for minor offences too. And the same with other Eastern states. Just because they have much more rigid punishments for certain crimes (for example I’d happy put someone in prison for 25 years for rape or paedophilia) it is meant to imply they’re “uncivilised”.

    43. temptation — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:56 pm  

      WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL?…did you really expect last nights documentary to come up with some answers to

      most of you guys are not even Muslima dn

      ALSO do you even know what CHAV means i find your new term “CHAVLIMS” insulting…Council House Adult Vermin!!!

    44. temptation — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:56 pm  

      WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL?…did you really expect last nights documentary to come up with some answers to

      most of you guys are not even Muslima dn

      ALSO do you even know what CHAV means i find your new term “CHAVLIMS” insulting…Council House Adult Vermin!!!

    45. lucy — on 8th August, 2006 at 10:57 pm  

      “anyone” who spoke decent english?
      I don’t remember the NUS bloke, the elderly woman in Bradford slovenly spoken? And some others.
      I don’t get this ‘chavlim’ portrayal that some others have seen.

    46. temptation — on 8th August, 2006 at 11:02 pm  

      sorry guys i am not used to this blogging business so i sent those comments twice

    47. Yakoub/Julaybib — on 9th August, 2006 at 9:33 am  

      “Hizb ut-Tahrir types say Middle Eastern countries aren’t really Islamic countries and are more dictatorships propped up by the west. If that’s entirely true then why aren’t there popular uprisings against those dictators instead of marches against Danish cartoons?”

      As Mohammad Arkoun points out, this is because Muslims in the ME often define their religious outlook partly in terms of the ‘Western protagonist’.

      I think the term ‘Chavlims’ is wonderful, and should be in the next edition of the OED. But don’t tell Monica Ali, or she’ll make it the title of her next book ;-)

      Wasalaam

      TMA

    48. Roger — on 9th August, 2006 at 9:53 am  

      “…in a non-Muslim state they have to live according to existing laws of course.

      But in the mind of the viewer it creates the impression this is how they’d like to behave here, when the guy is just stating (an outdated version of) what he sees as Shariah.”

      But some muslims would like to behave according to allegedly outdated versions of sharia and some think they should or that they are obliged to try to forcibly install it. That is the big difference and the big problem with some muslims compared with other religious maniacs. Muslims want eberyone else to benefit from their virtues. I wouldn’t have much objection to people flogging or lopping bits off each other or even stoning people to death if it takes place between consenting adults in private. However, when people believe they are supposed to get everyone else to go in for it as well it’s a different matter.

    49. Old Pickler — on 9th August, 2006 at 9:55 am  

      even stoning people to death if it takes place between consenting adults in private

      How would that work, exactly?

    50. Vikrant — on 9th August, 2006 at 10:10 am  

      But in the mind of the viewer it creates the impression this is how they’d like to behave here, when the guy is just stating (an outdated version of) what he sees as Shariah.”

      Pray tell me has Islamic philosophy ever been updated thoroughly since 7th century?

    51. Chairwoman — on 9th August, 2006 at 12:51 pm  

      Does anybody out there believe that the stonee would be ‘consenting’?

    52. Kismet Hardy — on 9th August, 2006 at 1:00 pm  

      Hey, you can get stoned with me anytime

      But if you start talking religious prejudiced crap and kill my buzz, I shan’t consent to it

    53. sonia — on 9th August, 2006 at 2:27 pm  

      Heh heh reading these posts, there’s a heck of a lot of posts which would suggest quite a lot in common with moralizing old mullah types..

      never heard of this chavlim phrase..but then again, it was a long time before ‘chav’ penetrated my consciousness..

    54. Old Pickler — on 9th August, 2006 at 2:34 pm  

      Well stone me. When you’ve finished with the crows.

    55. Old Pickler — on 9th August, 2006 at 2:36 pm  

      Perhaps sharia could be modernised so that instead of the full blown stoning somebody just gets a light pebbledash.

    56. Chairwoman — on 9th August, 2006 at 2:46 pm  

      As Bob Dylan succinctly put it ‘Everybody must get stoned’.

    57. sonia — on 9th August, 2006 at 2:49 pm  

      aaah…all this talk about being stoned is simply making me want a spliff!

    58. sonia — on 9th August, 2006 at 2:50 pm  

      heh heh OP you are quite amusing..pebbledash.

      if anyone tried stoning me they’d have more trouble on their hands than they’d thought.

    59. Kismet Hardy — on 9th August, 2006 at 2:53 pm  

      Sharia and share alike

    60. sonia — on 9th August, 2006 at 2:59 pm  

      kismet, that’s brilliant. you really oughta get yourself a book deal - collect your little gems of wisdom and hey presto!

    61. mirax — on 9th August, 2006 at 3:03 pm  

      >>You do know you get lashed in places like Singapore for minor offences too. And the same with other Eastern states. Just because they have much more rigid punishments for certain crimes (for example I’d happy put someone in prison for 25 years for rape or paedophilia) it is meant to imply they’re “uncivilised”.

      You get the rotan (another wunnerful Brit legacy the PAP is too fond of to discard) for serious crimes, not minor ones. As a Singaporean, let me tell you that I think it is a fucking uncivilised thing to do. You are trying to softpedddle stoning and amputation punishments in sharia methinks by way of shabby comparisons and fuzzy logic.

    62. sonia — on 9th August, 2006 at 3:05 pm  

      “As a Singaporean, let me tell you that I think it is a fucking uncivilised thing to do.”

      ha Mirax i agree with you there!

      and all those drug laws in some of these countries..sheesh talk about needing to watch some bill hicks or sth..

    63. AsifB — on 9th August, 2006 at 3:07 pm  

      I agree with Sonia (no.60)

      Go on Kismet, I really want to see your film pitches make it to the big screen, expecially the one about the donkey.

    64. mirax — on 9th August, 2006 at 3:19 pm  

      All of kismet’s films should be the virtual reality kind- the viewer is part of the action. I tell you, society as we know it will be stood on its head and screwed silly and thus, traumatised into a shell-shocked peace. No more war!

    65. Kismet Hardy — on 9th August, 2006 at 3:41 pm  

      Mirax, I have a feeble attention span and don’t understand many things but I did read ’screwed silly’

      Tee hee. You’ve hit the cock on the head there

      I’m making porn

      AsifB, you’d think these donkies would be gagging to get a job, but oh no, they’re all signed up to star in the new Ajay Devgan family movie. I lost all my dwarf actor thanks to that bastard Harry Potter

    66. raz — on 9th August, 2006 at 3:43 pm  

      Do u know how to administer the rotan punishment mirax ;)

    67. sonia — on 9th August, 2006 at 3:45 pm  

      asifb - thanks for your comment on my post on bangladeshi women

      it seems to me the sort of thing we should be talking about on this forum..of course for some reason people don’t seem to comment on diaries much ( too much action over here eh) but seriously- is that not the most ridiculous thing one has ever heard

      realize am digressing somewhat, but the conversation seems to encourage digression!

    68. Old Pickler — on 9th August, 2006 at 4:01 pm  

      the conversation seems to encourage digression!

      Kismet in particular is a bit of a deviant.

    69. sonia — on 9th August, 2006 at 4:02 pm  

      yes rather a likeable deviant..

    70. mirax — on 9th August, 2006 at 4:03 pm  

      >>Do u know how to administer the rotan punishment mirax

      You’re just gagging for it aint you?

      Here’s how it looks.

      http://images.google.com.sg/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=+caning+in+singapore&btnG=Search

      If we had leatherclad doms administering the lashes instead of burly prison guards, d’you suppose we can turn this into a nice little trade and better press?

    71. mirax — on 9th August, 2006 at 4:06 pm  

      deviant???

      *sniffs*

      Kismet is a true visionary. Prophets are never recog….

    72. Kismet Hardy — on 9th August, 2006 at 4:08 pm  

      I’m not really a true visionary at all I’m afraid. I use binoculors

    73. Leon — on 9th August, 2006 at 4:13 pm  

      it seems to me the sort of thing we should be talking about on this forum..of course for some reason people don’t seem to comment on diaries much

      Good point although to be fair Sunny does link to em from time to time. I always read entries as and when they pop up over there——>

      Your latest entry was excellent and quite an eye opener, I know patriachy exists [over there] but never realised it’s enshrined in law like that.

    74. AsifB — on 9th August, 2006 at 4:15 pm  

      Thank you Sonia (no.67) - yes the insitutionalised discrimination /discriminatory language is ridiculous.

      Especially given that it is not as if debating matters like purity of language / coming up with politically correct terms for minority groups - is an alien concept in Bangladesh (as far as I can tell from my sub-Sun reader Bangla)

      I daren’t open no.70…

    75. Chairwoman — on 9th August, 2006 at 4:37 pm  

      I had a look at the link on 70. disgusting from every angle.

    76. Refresh — on 9th August, 2006 at 5:14 pm  

      “Male circumcision ‘lowers risk of HIV infection by 60%’
      By Jeremy Laurance, Health Editor
      Published: 09 August 2006″

      The Independent

      http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article1217831.ece

    77. sonia — on 9th August, 2006 at 5:45 pm  

      leon - re: your post 73yeah - and its only a matter of changing the wording of the law - that’s it. clearly a well-highlighted issue given the presentation to the various Committees etc. And one can understand why maybe no government has changed the wording given a) so many changes of government and b) they probably thought it was the least of their woes. But - still, it’s something that can’t be forgotten.

      In any case, it affects me directly - and for example, one of my sisters has to constantly apply for visas for her children to visit Bangladesh and their grandparents. My other sister - though - has no such problem - because her husband though british born - was entitled to citizenship because his dad was a Bangladeshi citizen. the fact that all my sisters are Bangladeshi citizens seems to not make a difference in being able to pass this citizenship down to one’s child. i mean - its a bit silly if you can’t take your own child to your country. just takes applying for visas to an extreme! Pshaw..

    78. Kismet Hardy — on 9th August, 2006 at 5:48 pm  

      jesus, I got circumcised at the age of 9 (my paents forgot) and I got done by a door-to-door holyman (with the whole neighbourhood watching on and clapping) with rusty implements that infected and mutilated me and kept me in bed for six whole months

      For the record, it works fine and is a beautiful work of art but fuck do I bear the scars

      Kinda explains a few things, no?

    79. AsifB — on 9th August, 2006 at 6:12 pm  

      Funny how threads with Sex in the title can keep going the longest. (fnnarr fnnar, ooh yess missus)

      Kismet - I was 7 years old when I had it done under general anaesthetic and showed every visitor to the house for the next two years (so there may well as have been a crowd watching the op)

    80. mirax — on 9th August, 2006 at 6:33 pm  

      >>I had a look at the link on 70. disgusting from every angle.

      I was in the juvenile courts earlier this year. The tastefully appointed lobby areas had comfy couches, nice pictures on the wall. So it was rather disconcerting when I noticed the corner by the water dispenser, held the caning pictures as well as those of the grim bare jail cells. A court official told me that juvenile delinquents- including those who get probation- HAVE to go on a prison tour to see the facilities up close and personal. Our kids don’t need asbos - they know they have to deal with a government that relishes taking its gloves off and administering tough love. Disneyland with the death penalty indeed.

    81. Sunny — on 9th August, 2006 at 6:43 pm  

      As a Singaporean, let me tell you that I think it is a fucking uncivilised thing to do. You are trying to softpedddle stoning and amputation punishments in sharia methinks by way of shabby comparisons and fuzzy logic.

      Can people please make a list of things that are “uncivilised” and those that are not?

      I remember meeting an anthropologist on a train in India once who said he studied this tribe in Orissa that was very matriarchal. The women used to go out, get drunk, come home and beat their husbands. Is that uncivilised behaviour?

      I only ask not because I’m making excuses, but I’d like some boundaries to be drawn here. So I know that if I propose strict punishment for, say, sexual assault, I know I’m in “uncivilised” territory.

    82. Chairwoman — on 9th August, 2006 at 6:46 pm  

      Mirax - I am not against corporal punishment per se, but I felt that had gone considerably too far. Apart from brutalising the administrator - yes, that is what I mean - there is an obvious risk of infection.

      May I ask what sort of offences merit such a beating?

    83. Chairwoman — on 9th August, 2006 at 6:47 pm  

      Sunny - Of course it’s uncivilised, in precisely the same way as when it’s done by men.

    84. raz — on 9th August, 2006 at 6:49 pm  

      Uncivilised or not, if its mirax holding the stick I’m up for it :)

    85. Chairwoman — on 9th August, 2006 at 6:55 pm  

      Whatever turns you on.

    86. Kismet Hardy — on 9th August, 2006 at 7:12 pm  

      I’ve never smacked my kids

      Whether I sell them smack when they’re old enough is another matter

    87. mirax — on 9th August, 2006 at 7:22 pm  

      >>but I’d like some boundaries to be drawn here. So I know that if I propose strict punishment for, say, sexual assault, I know I’m in “uncivilised” territory.

      my boundaries are:

      -no statesanctioned corporal punishment including whipping, amputation, stoning etc.
      -no capital punishment (it took me a long time to come round to this view but I have)
      (def no public spectacle or participation of either)
      - one grey area is whether to allow chemical castration for paedophiles or serial rapists WHO REQUEST IT THEMSELVES. I am inclined to allow it but with very strict guidelines to prevent abuse.

      But we were discussing sharia/huddood, which is not about just the punishments but more about underlying assumptions, rules of evidence, access to justice, equality of treatment, due process etc
      I am implacably opposed to huddood.

    88. mirax — on 9th August, 2006 at 7:23 pm  

      Kismet you have little hardies scampering around? How many?

    89. Old Pickler — on 9th August, 2006 at 8:17 pm  

      I think the less said about Kismets little hardy the better.

    90. Chairwoman — on 9th August, 2006 at 8:28 pm  

      OP - naughty corner

    91. Sunny — on 9th August, 2006 at 10:06 pm  

      Chairwoman - Of course it’s uncivilised,

      Can someone please define me boundaries instead of constantly saying “it’s uncivilised”. With some (white) people in this country speaking with a vocabulary littered with expletives is also uncivilised.

      I’d like to know these boundaries that you guys keep conjuring up.

    92. Kismet Hardy — on 9th August, 2006 at 10:20 pm  

      It’s uncivilised to:

      • Torture people because they might know something you don’t
      • Kill them because they did something bad
      • Blow them up because you don’t like them or want something they have
      • Shoot them because you felt threatened
      • Destroy the natural defences of the world because you need to run your car
      • Marry your sister

      There’s everything you need to learn on the subject from them Americans…

    93. Ismaeel — on 9th August, 2006 at 11:50 pm  

      Nice article Sunny

    94. Kismet Hardy — on 10th August, 2006 at 5:55 am  

      Hey I just had a brilliant 6am style thought that might change the world

      First, notice how Ismael sounds like I smile

      Then consider that the word hashi, in bengali, means smile and hashish is what you tell someone they should smile

      I feel like that archimedes bloke that cried É√?ÉœÉ≈É»Éø/É≈?ÉœÉ≈É»Éø (that’s eureka in greek for those who think it’s all greek to them)

      Incidentally, charis in greek means grace

      Smile gracefully

      And then I realised… like I was shot… like I was shot with a diamond… a diamond bullet right through my forehead. And I thought: My God… the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure.

      Oh look, a matchstick.

    95. Katy Newton — on 10th August, 2006 at 9:14 am  

      The women used to go out, get drunk, come home and beat their husbands.

      That’s what the Chairwoman was saying was uncivilised, Sunny. You asked if that was a specific example of uncivilised behaviour and she said that it was. I am not sure why you say that’s “conjuring up boundaries”.

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