“Dalbir/Deepa all the bad things that happen in the Punjab, it is the police who are to be blamed, what about those that employ the them, the ‘State’”

Mr Johal, nice to hear from you again. I believe critiques of the State have been highlighted several times on this site. The Police are simply one arm of the State, there are several other State bodies and institutions which perpertuate the corruption rife at the centre.

“the only thing the above posts highlight is the failure of Jatt society to get over caste despite centuries of being exposed to Sikh thought. How much longer will this go on?”

This is a tad simplified, although pro-Jatt nepotism does exist within all Sikh institutions (be it the Akali Dal, Taksal, Nirmal Akharas, Nihang Deras etc).

The reality unfortunately is not as simple as blaming Jatts or scapegoating non-Jatts (be they so-called ‘scheduled’ classes or the upper echelons of Punjabi society), there are several political incentives on part of all groups (including those described as ‘scheduled’ classes) to retain their class identity and this plays into the hands of the state quite nicely.

Anyway, the only thing the above posts highlight is the failure of Jatt society to get over caste despite centuries of being exposed to Sikh thought. How much longer will this go on?

I think you are correct in suggesting that this is over simplified, as it implies that a Jatt (or any person) who is not pro-Khalistani is automatically pro-government. This forum is evidence enough to show the contrary.

“I think blaming Mazbhis is probably just scapegoating”

Understand where you are coming from, but for the record, I am not ‘blaming Mazbhis’ at all. Simply highlighting what academic research has mentioned.

“If anything Pettigrew and Mahmud have probably just aired common prejudiced perceptions in their works from reflecting their rural sources?”

I cannot speak on behalf of these scholars, however I do oppose any classification of them as Nazis! They have not said that the Punjab Police is composed solely of Mazbhis, simply that caste issues which, as you also concede, pre-date any Sikh-specific matters, are also borne out in clashes that occur, albeit these are of secondary notion.

I think blaming Mazbhis is probably just scapegoating. Much like certain neo-nazi groups blame immigrants for all their woes here in the UK without just cause. If anything Pettigrew and Mahmud have probably just aired common prejudiced perceptions in their works from reflecting their rural sources?

I have a feeling we are dealing with animosity that long predates Sikhi myself. This has nothing to do with Punjab Police experiences as even people raised here who have no experince of ‘back home’ frequentlyshare such views. I would say it is a deeply encultured hatred myself?

“I don’t know what Pettigrew and Mahmud were playing at with that one. I don’t understand what deep routed issues the Jatt community have with Mazhbis (everyday conversations with Jatt friends confirm some SERIOUS hatred existing there)”

I cannot comment upon Pettigrew or Mahmoods motive / agenda (if indeed they have one other than academic assessment of their assignments), however they have written much of their texts based on interviews with Jatts in Punjab, in particular Khalistani Jatts.

The implication of their view is clear, and your confirmation of the rivalry between Jatts and ‘mazbhis’ (“some SERIOUS hatred existing there”) supports their rationale that the experiences of rural Jatts at the hands of the Police include a caste factor.

Besides, there is no need to focus on delivery style in my posts. If I use earthy language you can ignore it and just focus on the underlying point.

Anyway…

I see the Ludhianan thing seems to have disappeared into oblivion now.

“Dude, if you mixed with everyday Panjabi men for even a short length of time, you’d hear those words quite frequently. No offence, but you sound a bit sheltered with the above?”

No offence taken, but please refrain from making too many assumptions – I have frequent dealings with Punjabis on a daily basis and am familiar with the terminology used by those of an uncultured disposition, nonetheless, as I said, I fail to see what the use of the phrase “Sister****ers” does for your argument.

“Your explanations are okay by the way, but totally ignore the reputation Punjab Police has (and earned!)”

Dalbir, I am very aware of this ‘reputation’ and have had the unfortunate experience of witnessing it first hand and in no way am I ‘ignoring’ this item – I was responding to your comments around the visible case of Sikhs in the Punjab Police attacking/controlling/policing (depending on one’s view) Sikh protestors.

“Your comments are bordering on extreme naivity. A more generally corrupt, fat bunch of fuckers you will struggle to find (bhangra classes for drastic weight loss anyone?)”

Again, I cannot see what any of the above does to further your argument (likewise for your ad hominem comments with respect to me) – I have explained the context of my statements above.

“Not to mention that whole legacy of sadism from the post 84 period. From taking bribes, to extra judicary executions. These guys know all the tricks”.

Dalbir, for the record, I am not defending the actions of the Punjab Police and am very cognisant of their human rights abuses, in particular during the 1980s and 1990s.

“Our lot seems to have lost the plot when it comes to protestinf effectively”.

Rumbold has a fair point in this respect as well.

“Forget Pettigrew and Mahmud. Punjab police is Jatt dominated. Go back home and see for yourself. Don’t get all of your info from books brother, have your ears and eyes on the ground too”

I have been back to Punjab several times (FYI, Home for me is the UK) and am aware that the Punjab Police is not solely composed of ‘Mazbhis’, nonetheless the information available from Pettigrew and Mahmood provides a possible source of explanation, I have not suggested that it is the only source.

Dalbir, I feel we are essentially on the same side of the equation here, you will note that I have not negated any of the comments from previous posters (I have not repeated any as it adds nothing new to the available discussion, simply highlighted some additional factors).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0pc8IjmXaI&feature=related

I shall ignore your questionable use of the term ‘panchoday’ (lit. sister-f***ers) which does nothing for your argument

@13

Dude, if you mixed with everyday Panjabi men for even a short length of time, you’d hear those words quite frequently. No offence, but you sound a bit sheltered with the above? I’m just giving you a heads up. Don’t be so sensitive.

Your explanations are okay by the way, but totally ignore the reputation Punjab Police has (and earned!). Your comments are bordering on extreme naivity. A more generally corrupt, fat bunch of fuckers you will struggle to find (bhangra classes for drastic weight loss anyone?) Not to mention that whole legacy of sadism from the post 84 period. From taking bribes, to extra judicary executions. These guys know all the tricks. In any case, I don’t think those brothers who were protesting had a clue, as I thought I made clear in post 5?! Our lot seems to have lost the plot when it comes to protestinf effectively.

Forget Pettigrew and Mahmud. Punjab police is Jatt dominated. Go back home and see for yourself.

Don’t get all of your info from books brother, have your ears and eyes on the ground too.

“Besides look at those panchoday, they are apnay too. How do you explain this?”

I shall ignore your questionable use of the term ‘panchoday’ (lit. sister-f***ers) which does nothing for your argument, insofar as the seeming Sikh on Sikh violence, there are various ways of looking at this:

1. The Police are doing their job / following orders, the fact that they are also Sikh is as irrelevant to the matter as a White Anglo Saxon Police Officer in the UK arresting / controlling members of the EDL.

Similarly, a white officer instructed to police a prospective Islam4UK march is doing his job, not letting his race / community down by say cracking down on any riot action taken out by a group of white males against the opinions of Islam4UK, however offensive the latter maybe.

2. Some commentators (such as Joyce Pettigrew and Cynthia Keppley Mahmood in their analysis of Jat Sikhs and human rights abuses faced by Punjabi Sikhs at the hands of the Central Government) highlight that whereas rural Punjabis are typically of Jatt origin, the Police force has a strong ‘mazbhi’element and urban centres a ‘mercentile’ population. Both the ‘mercentile’ and ‘mazbhis’ are described by these authors as the ‘traditional rivals of the Jatts’.

I am not sure how much emphasis can be placed on (2) over (1), but imagine it is a mix of the two elements.

Isn’t that just running away from a problem? Plus Goa is a shitty place that is selling its soul to cater for white tourists. Fuck that.

“What would the Sikh gurus have done about it?”

Nothing, ignored it and moved on. There are plenty of examples from Guru-history where family members or “outsiders” attempted to lay claim to divine rights for their own political ends and the Gurus simply moved on and continued with their message and work.

These splinter groups which operated as large cults in their own day gradually dwindled into non-existence today. By comparison, groups like the Sant Nirankaris and Ashutosh are growing by the day thanks to the free publicity given to them by hot heads.

I support the right of people to mock religions, yes. People mock my own views all the time and I don't feel the need to go and protest on the streets.

Storming up to those twisted bastards, armed with guns with only your kirpans is only going to end in one way. And even if they did get f**ked, you know they'd start their usual attacks on Singh's families and people would get start to get found in dodgy 'encounters' in remote fields.

The point about heavy handedness in comparison to similar Bihari protests is valid, but Sikhs should know exactly what to expect by now. Besides look at those panchoday, they are apnay too. How do you explain this?