Thanks for the instructions

“Surely you were at the same point once with the I-P conflict, no? Isn’t Srilanka worth your time? Seeing like how it’s a desi country and all… ”

Hmmmm….you know, I detected the sarcasm in your first comment and let that one pass by and tried to be nice. Now this one. You might think you are being cute, I think it’s just a waste of time to go back and forth with snarky comments

I didn’t write about SL politics, but since it’s a desi country and all, here is a link to a blog that one of our bloggers wrote:

http://www.passtheroti.com/?p=133

Apologies for trying to engage in debate, not responding to sassy comments, and admitting that I am not familiar with SL politics.

Peace out.

Surely you were at the same point once with the I-P conflict, no? Isn’t Srilanka worth your time? Seeing like how it’s a desi country and all…

Bold
Italic
4.0* Underline (not widely implemented)
Strikeout (not widely implemented)
4.0* Strikeout (not widely implemented)
Subscript
Superscript

“Desi now that you off the I-P case, would you like to contribute to the Srilanka peace cause? That thread is lagging for want of peace warriors and root cause analysists. Jump in whenever you want!”

Unfortunately, I do not know much about SL politics. I have a general idea, but not enough details and specifics where I would feel comfortable in making any assertions

Also, can I put in another repeated request? Would somebody be kind enough to explain how the hell you can boldface, italicize, and color words/phrases in red? Maybe people are misinterpreting my comments as hysterical because I’ve been CAPSIZING certain words (so as to emphasize or underline a point) because I do not know how to boldface or italicize

“As for hysterical, I’ll leave people to read your comments, especially that last one, and judge for themselves.”

Are you being serious? Compared to the comments that others made, I really don’t see where I was being “hysterical.” I told you that I agreed with you about the whole race thing. I also pointed out that some continue to fall back on this as well, and so I thought that it was important to address. Then I posted links here, and I even conceded that there are rebuttals and critiques to what I had posted and thus, let’s agree to disagree since each of us can find the links that we want. Where the heck am I being “hysterical?” I re-read my comments, and I really can’t see what you are accusing me of.

Did YOU read my comments? I’m not sure you read them all the way through.

“You really didn’t get what I said at all did you? I keep saying all over this site that the way forward is for both sides to stop the name calling, stop the blaming, stop the whole ne- ne ne ne-ne ing that goes on, and try to find a solution together.”

No, I don’t get what you are trying to say. On the one hand, both you and Katy say, “there are things that Israel shouldn’t be doing” and that there are “legitimate Palestinian grievances.” I say that in order to flesh these two concepts out, we have to look at what is actually going on so that we can see the roots and causes. How to find a solution without understanding where and why these problems come from?

I’m actually not calling anybody names (even though others have called me names). I don’t see where I’ve ever done that on PP. I do however say that many of the problems that afflict Palestine/Israel do stem from Israel, by virtue of the disproportionate power and support Israel enjoys in the face of now what is a Palestinian minority living under military occupation.

BTW, I take it that you think that Oslo was the offer of a lifetime. However, if you read the Oslo accords and the analyses that followed, you’ll see that it was in fact deeply flawed. It gave more concessions to Israel and impeded total Palestinian sovereignty.

So, in sum, if both of you think that I’m being hysterial, ranting, I hate Jews, and am pointing fingers just because I point out that we need to understand the roots and causes of conflicts– in order to think of a JUST solution for the Palestinians,whereby the solutions are composed of not what Israel exclusively wants and sets the terms–then you can continue to believe what you want.

I also agree with Sonia about what direction this discussion is going.

Have a nice day.

Take a deep breath. There’s peace to be made if people have the will to make it, and let’s face it, if we, who are not directly involved can’t make peace, what hope for the protagonists.

As for hysterical, I’ll leave people to read your comments, especially that last one, and judge for themselves.

If you guys include me in the group of “ranters,” and somebody who’s got something “wrong” with her who posts “hysterical” comments, than I can’t imagine what “hysterical” means. No where do I ever resort to name calling, call “Joooos” a dirty race, deny the Holocaust,etc. I’m sorry to say this, but YOUR guys’ comments come off as hysterical and defensive. And frankly, it sounds like you are either trying to bully people who disagree with you or you can’t handle opinions that diverge from yours. Katy, maybe you should think twice when you write a post titled “A Wider Perspective.” The only way you guys are counteracting what I am saying is by branding me as a hysterical anti-Semite who’s like Arafat. Real smooth. You spoke of the other thread “degenerating” into hysterical rants. Your comments there and here are actually evolving into useless arguments–ie “you’ve got something wrong with you”, Chairwoman likening me to Arafat, etc. Keep pulling out names and empty insults and sure the thread is going to degenerate into something useless.

Also, your comments prove this point perfectly: if you criticize Zionism and Zionists– which is NOT the same as Judaism and Jews– you get shut down by being branded as an “anti-Semite.” Yeah, my comments are “anti-Semitic”: they are tantamount to burning down synagogues, calling Jews “kikes” and hating all Jews, calling them a filthy race, killing Jews and so on. Honestly, come up with a definition of anti Semitism, please. Also, I don’t think I would have won any other way. If I would have said that European Jews are a distinct race from other Europeans, I would have been labeled as someone similar to Hitler who argued that Jews were an alien race that needed to be killed off. If I were to say that they are in fact Europeans, I’m an anti-semite. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Now that you have written the type of comments that you have, the discussion IS getting silly. Which is a waste of my time. Have a nice day.

Sonia:
Excellent points.

The simple fact is once people start being referred to unpleasantly – as ‘one group’ by ‘somebody else’ i.e. designated as the ‘Other’ – it’s pretty simple – people soon may start feeling that way. some people don’t and some people do. this can apply to jewish identity and muslim identity ( amongst others..)

rampant anti-semitism meant that if you were Jewish, you were discriminated against, and clearly that’s played a part in lots of Jewish people feeling like they had something in common apart from religion and drew people together. being discriminated against often draws people together. we are seeing similar things now with ‘Muslim identity’ – the more people keep insisting Muslims are some kind of homogeneous entity the more likely someone’s ‘muslim identity’ may be sparked as a result of feeling ‘othered’. Who knows – 50 years down the line people will probably be referring to the ‘Muslim race’ and some Muslims will be pointing out how silly that is and some will have started feeling like they are and saying so. In any case the usage of the term ‘race’ has changed significantly over the centuries, this is well documented in social anthropology.

‘Like Yassir Arafat you never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity’.

For you there is no middle ground, no compromise, only your way is the right way. I hold the olive branch, you ignore it. You are intractable.

If you are as intractable in ‘real life’ as opposed to your blogging persona then you are going to be extremely unhappy. No compromise leads to misery and loneliness.

Life Yassir Arafat you never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity

But it is kind of you to tell me that there is nothing wrong with me identifying with the Jewish people. I was losing sleep over that. Really.

You cannot be a Catholic unless you have been baptised and have taken Holy Communion. I was never baptised, let alone anything else. I was raised as Jewish. I am not and never have been a Christian. I did not “choose” Judaism. It is what I am.

I closed the thread because I am tired of pointless, repetitive ranting that goes nowhere. I didn’t close it specifically because of you, but yes, I do include you in that definition.

You keep posting links which demonstrate that the Jews are not a race. I know that already. The point that I, and the people you have linked to make, and which you either won’t or can’t understand, is this: Jews may not be ethnically different from other races, but they are more closely related to each other than they are to people outside the Jewish people. They have common ancestry. They are like a very distant family. It is nothing to do with race. You would probably find the same sort of relationship in small villages in Britain. If Village A and Village B are both Caucasian but both communities have been isolated and therefore mainly (but not exclusively) married within themselves, then the people within each village will be more closely related to each other than they are to the people in the other village. This is not rocket science. You’re the one who keeps turning it into an argument about race.

Apart from your links on ancestry, which only demonstrate your own lack of understanding or refusal to understand, you have brought absolutely nothing to either my thread or this one that hadn’t been said before, both there and elsewhere, both by you and by others.

Chairwoman:

“What a dichotomy you present, you appear measured and evenhanded, but spend an awful lot of time at the books looking for references to do down us Jooooos.”

It’s interesting that you smirk at my spending “an awful lot of time at the books for looking for references to do down us Jooooos” because a while back on this thread

http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/645

you had, in response to my comment #54 where I presented quotes from Israeli politicians, you said:

“Thank you for the amount of research you have done in preparing your reply to me, kudos to you. ” (comment # 56).

I can’t believe I am getting ridiculed for “spending an awful lot of time at the books” when in the past you gave me “kudos.” Is there something wrong with reading documents, policies, articles and books that look at Israeli history, politicians, and policies?

Judging from your comments (not making a personal attack), I am under the impression that you believe in the concept of Israel without having looked at the substance of the political dynamics and realities that are on the ground. Generally speaking, I have met a lot of diasporans who unquestioningly accept the politics and idealogies of the country that they, for one reason or another, feel tied to. Indian Americans who are Hindus, for example, are fervent supporters of the Hindutva movement in India. Many of them are either uninformed, misinformed, or ill-informed about the actual policies, politicians, and facts behind the political movements that they support. But what they believe in is the IDEA of the political/religious movement that they agree with. What they are in the dark about is the actual policies and its content and consequences. After all, it’s too easy to live in another country and not have to personally feel, live, and deal with the consequences of certain policies enacted in the “homeland.”

Anyway, if I don’t respond to this thread (now, later, or never), it’s because I’m busy working away on life and death matters

J. Seigel, “Genetic Kohanim descent claims disputed”, The Jerusalem Post, February 28, 2001.

Also, it would be great if someone could tell me how I can color quotes red, italicize, and boldface. Does everybody have those text bars on their comments form, or is everyone using computer codes?

I do not understand why you closed down that thread. You stated that I am “arguing with myself,” no one ever gets anywhere with my assertions, and that I got the thread to “degenerate” into “hysterical” assertions. I don’t see where this happened. In fact, I had thanked you for taking the time to express your opinions. I also pointed out that I understand if you did not really refer to the Palestinians in your post (except for Hamas and undefined ” legitimate Palestinian grievances”) since I myself write posts and know that it takes a long time to put together something coherent. As such, I made it a point to underline that I was just stating my views, particularly when the post’s title was “A Wider Perspective” of the Middle East. Just because I was stating my opinions– and nowhere did I use profanity, no where did I take on a strong tone– you brand that as hysterical? I was anything but hysterical.

Furthermore, the fact that I stated that Jews are genetically linked to the populations of where they come from DOES NOT mean that I am denying or discounting religious affiliation and I am criticizing Jews. If I were to say that Hindus are genetically similar to the populations that surround them, I don’t think that could be branded as anti-Hindu. When I said that to me it seems implausible that after 2000 years, Jews all over the world share the same common descent, I provided the example of those who intermarry and still claim a particular identity and religion. NOTHING wrong with that. It doesn’t mean that they are less Hindu, Jewish, or whatever. And I am NOT making a personal swipe here, but just to give you an example: isn’t your father Catholic? Yet you call yourself Jewish. You identify with Jewish people. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

I had looked at those links you provided– those are the links that come up when you google in “Khazar, Jews genetics”. I already know that those sources exist. I also know that there are sources that refute the links that you provided. The reason why I told you let’s agree to disagree was because I know that there are back and forth rebuttals. You can find the sources that you want, and I can find sources that refute them. Since you state that it doesn’t matter anyway, why would you get so angry and defensive? Please go back and re-read what I had written and the tone of your responses. If you are upset that I disagreed with you, then your responses to my post lead me to think that you don’t really appreciate people criticizing your positions.

Here are some links and excerpts. You can have any take you’d like on it. You can still continue to believe what you want. The links and excerpts I provide here are just another perspective. I hope you don’t take that as “hysterical rants” and I hope Chairwoman doesn’t accuse me of anti-Semitism. To read the full texts of certain articles, you need a university proxy/access as I do. Apologies!

**************************************************

1. On the politics of science, an Observer article stated that a scholarly study which found that Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians were almost genetically identical was pulled out a leading journal:

“A keynote research paper showing that Middle Eastern Jews and Palestinians are genetically almost identical has been pulled from a leading journal.
Academics who have already received copies of Human Immunology have been urged to rip out the offending pages and throw them away.

Such a drastic act of self-censorship is unprecedented in research publishing and has created widespread disquiet, generating fears that it may involve the suppression of scientific work that questions Biblical dogma.

The journal’s editor, Nicole Sucio-Foca, of Columbia University, New York, claims the article provoked such a welter of complaints over its extreme political writing that she was forced to repudiate it. The article has been removed from Human Immunology’s website, while letters have been written to libraries and universities throughout the world asking them to ignore or ‘preferably to physically remove the relevant pages’. Arnaiz-Villena has been sacked from the journal’s editorial board.

The paper, ‘The Origin of Palestinians and their Genetic Relatedness with other Mediterranean Populations’, involved studying genetic variations in immune system genes among people in the Middle East.

In common with earlier studies, the team found no data to support the idea that Jewish people were genetically distinct from other people in the region. In doing so, the team’s research challenges claims that Jews are a special, chosen people and that Judaism can only be inherited.

Jews and Palestinians in the Middle East share a very similar gene pool and must be considered closely related and not genetically separate, the authors state. Rivalry between the two races is therefore based ‘in cultural and religious, but not in genetic differences’, they conclude.

But the journal, having accepted the paper earlier this year, now claims the article was politically biased and was written using ‘inappropriate’ remarks about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Its editor told the journal Nature last week that she was threatened by mass resignations from members if she did not retract the article.

One of them said: ‘If Arnaiz-Villena had found evidence that Jewish people were genetically very special, instead of ordinary, you can be sure no one would have objected to the phrases he used in his article. This is a very sad business.’

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,605798,00.html

To read the offending and thus withdrawn study:

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:Ogn1a-fWlckJ:kinoko.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~duraid/stolen_science/The_Origin_of_Palestinians_and_Their_Genetic_Relatedness_With_Other_Mediterranean_Populations.pdf+origin+of+palestinians+and+their+genetic+relatedness+with+other+mediterranean+populations&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

2. The data presented by the above genetists was consistant with the data presented by Israeli scientists, Amar et al. Amar et al, who found the same data, presents a conclusion that goes contrary to their findings (contrast first two paragraphs with the last one):

“The Jewish population in Israel comprises of inhabitants of heterogeneous ethnic backgrounds. Genetic studies classify the Israeli Jewish population into two major groups: Ashkenazi from Central and Eastern Europe and Sephardic or non Ashkenazi, from the Mediterranean and North Africa. The present study was aimed at elucidating the differential influx of HLA class II alleles in Ashkenazi, in various non-Ashkenazi subgroups and in Israeli Moslem Arabs. Using the PCR-SSOP technique, a large number of alleles were detected at each of the loci examined (DRB1, DQA1 and DQB1).

In addition, gene frequencies, characteristic DR/DQ linkage disequilibria, population distances and their corresponding dendogram, were used to study the relationship between Israelis as a group, non Jewish Caucasians and Blacks. These populations could be grouped into three main clusters: the first consists of all the Israeli groups with the exception of the Ethiopian Jews; the second consists of non Jewish Caucasians, with a clear distinction seen between Israelis and non Jewish Europeans and U.S. Caucasians; the third, composed of Blacks, is distinctly different from the other populations. Ethiopian Jews were found to be closer to the Blacks than to any of the Israeli Jewish groups.

We have shown that Jews share common features, a fact that points to a common ancestry. A certain degree of admixture with their pre-immigration neighbors exists despite the cultural and religious constraints against intermarriage.”

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T3B-3WY9RK0-B&_coverDate=08%2F31%2F1999&_alid=434565049&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=4942&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000001358&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=5745&md5=7af0bb5122cd8d3afe98e0215a031c32

3. The PNAS link that provided also concludes with assertions that contradict their own findings. Hammer et al’s data reveals that:

a. Sephardic and Mizrachi Jews are closer to Arab populations than both are to Ashkenazi Jews.

b. Ethiopian Jews are genetically the same as other Ethiopians.

But in contrast to their findings, they conclude that:

“…Most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.”

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/12/6769

4. Jersusalem Post on February 28, 2001 published the following article:

“Avshalom Zoossmann-Diskin (Ph.D) of the department of hematology and genetic pathology at the medical school of Flinters University of South Austrailia in Adelaide, recently published an article in the German-language ‘Journal of Comparative Human Biology’ that attempts to cast doubt on Skorecki’s Study. Zoossmann-Diskin, who during the 1990′s worked in the laboratory of Tel Aviv University genetist Prof. Batsheva Bonne-Tamir….maintains that ‘Jewish populations around the world descend from a variety of maternal and paternal origins…preliminary genetic studies of mitochondrial DNA (from maternal ancestries) have already demonstrated the connections between Jewish populations and non-Jewish populations.”

I tried to dig up a link that brings me directly to the article, but I couldn’t get to it. Info:

Siegel, Judy. “Experts find genetic Jewish-Arab link.” The Jerusalem Post Internet Edition 6 Nov. 2000. 22 May 2001 http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/11/06/News/News.14948.html.

5. For those who are simply interested to read more, here is the “Bibliography for Genetics and Identity:”

http://www.bioethics.umn.edu/genetics_and_identity/biblio.html

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These are the rebuttals of publications. There are also rebuttals of THESE rebuttals, so you don’t have to include them here, since I am already familiar with them.

This is just to see another perspective. I also stand by my comment that I do not agree with ethno-religious claims being used by ANY group– regardless of whether they are Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, whatever– to justify the ultimate right over a specific territory. These are my opinions.

“What a dichotomy you present, you appear measured and evenhanded, but spend an awful lot of time at the books looking for references to do down us Jooooos.

Frankly, I suspect your motives, do you think that subconciously you may be a little prejudiced against us?

Still, on a positive note, you have certainly crystalised my position on the Middle East. I now feel that Israel has no choice but to press on with the invasion.”

Please do not accuse me of anti-Semitism. I explicitly stated that I think it is dangerous to utilize ethno-religious claims to disposses another people off of their homeland. I also stated in comment #44:

“Not to deny religious affiliation, obviously. But I think we tread on dangerous territory when people start making genetic arguments for religious identification and claims to certain lands. ”

I do not understand where I am being anti-Semitic and looking “down on you Joos.” I explicitly stated that this is not to deny religious affiliation by any means. If you mistake my opinion that I think that Jews genetically resemble the populations of where they come from– which is entirely natural and there is NOTHING wrong with that– then I am sorry. But please look at my comment and yours, and see how defensive you get, and how your comment– accusing me of anti-Semitism– is inaccurate and visceral. Bananabrain’s comment appears to be far more thought out (though I disagree with it) than yours. You are conflating my criticisms of Zionism and Zionist policies and idealogies with anti-Semitism. I am sorry that you do so.