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  • Technorati: graph / links

    Ayaan Hirsi Ali praises Swiss minaret ban


    by Sunny
    8th December, 2009 at 1:41 am    

    Here she is, the poster-child of the neo-conservatives, praising the illiberal and bigoted measure by the Swiss:

    The recent Swiss referendum that bans construction of minarets has caused controversy across the world. There are two ways to interpret the vote. First, as a rejection of political Islam, not a rejection of Muslims. In this sense it was a vote for tolerance and inclusion, which political Islam rejects. Second, the vote was a revelation of the big gap between how the Swiss people and the Swiss elite judge political Islam.

    The minaret is a symbol of Islamist supremacy, a token of domination that came to symbolize Islamic conquest. It was introduced decades after the founding of Islam.

    You know, Sikh Gurdwaras also have a long thin steel poles called the Nishan sahib, which is meant to point out to Sikhs that there is a presence of the Khalsa (Sikh) there. Just thought I’d point that out.
    Seems Hirsi Ali isn’t as tolerant as she claims is she? One rule for herself and another for others.
    [via kenan malik]


                  Post to del.icio.us


    Filed in: 'Honour'-based violence,Civil liberties,Current affairs






    47 Comments below   |  

    Reactions: Twitter, blogs
    1. Maajid Nawaz

      Typical @pickledpolitics: Ayaan Hirsi Ali praises Swiss minaret ban http://bit.ly/5KUbi9


    2. pickles

      Blog post:: Ayaan Hirsi Ali praises Swiss minaret ban http://bit.ly/5KUbi9




    1. Cauldron — on 7th December, 2009 at 5:19 pm  

      Mr Malik has posted a reaction to Ayaan Hirsi Ali's reaction to the Swiss ban. Fair enough; he's entitled to his views.

      I'd be curious if he has a view on AHA's biography. Does he think she makes valid points in that book, or does he think she's making it all up? Does he agree with her critique of the utterly useless nature of Somali culture or does he believe all cultures are equal?

      Maybe our schools ought to celebrate this wonderful culture by having a Somalia day at which all the kids get to dress as pirates, take turns to be at the bottom of the class and go around mutilating the girls.

      It's a pathetic trick to snidely dismiss AHA in a sentence as a poster-child of neo-cons. Saves the left from the bother of having to address the issues she raises.

    2. marvin — on 7th December, 2009 at 5:32 pm  

      So did that notably non-frothing Asian lad on Question Time last week.

      His reason why he thinks minarets in his home area (Bradford?) should not be allowed was simply “that they are too divisive”. A noble reason, surely. Minarets are of course designed to tower over everything, to dominate the skyline and demand prayer.

      It doesn't help the Prime Minister of the decreasingly secular Turkey collating fears of the symbolism of the minarets; being the 'bayonets' of Islam. We don't see outrage from Muslim countries as many predicted. Why is that? Hazard a guess? Anybody familiar with sharia law and the building of churches? …

      I don't see why any religious group in this day and age should be allowed to build new structures designed to impinge on people's views and literally tower above them and everything else. Realistically of course, such structures will generally be refused by planning permission in this country at least. Islam does not have a particularly lenient view for people disagreeing with the tenets of Islam, does it? If minarets make 57% of the population feel uncomfortable, why should it be foisted upon them? In the name of tolerance? What about the freedom of comfort for people?

      I don't really buy the religious freedom argument. Where does this omnipotent God ask for minarets? Or niqabs for that matter? How does it oppress oridinary Muslims? Surely, if we play the numbers game, it would liberate more Muslims from strict Islamic interpretations than 'oppress' those who want to dominate the skyline with their religious callings? Which stance is more supportive of ordinary/moderate/secular Muslims? More minarets? More burqas?

    3. marvin — on 7th December, 2009 at 5:37 pm  

      Is religion bigoted? Illberal?

      To be a non-bigot and a liberal we should support imposing, towering, structures for a fire & brimstone religion in the year 2009!

      Welcome to the future! “Tolerance” “Freedom”

    4. danbrowne — on 7th December, 2009 at 5:49 pm  

      @Cauldron

      European culture invented genocide (Kemalists and Nazis) and fought two wars of annihilation within the space of twenty years. As for the position of women you only need to read Patrick Stewart's description of his violent father and the indifference of society to the plight of his mother:

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/nov/27/p...

      Perhaps this 'useless' culture has progressed since. This is how our grandparents behaved.

    5. BenSix — on 7th December, 2009 at 5:57 pm  

      If minarets make 57% of the population feel uncomfortable, why should it be foisted upon them?

      Well, in a liberal society it'd be because their lack of comfort doesn't legitimise restrictions upon the liberty of others. If you support complete majority rule, however, that's unlikely to interest you.

    6. Cauldron — on 7th December, 2009 at 6:12 pm  

      @danbrowne

      Very true. Past generations were indeed non-progressive by modern standards. Victorian women were required to wear headscarves and Mark Kurlansky's highly amusing 'The Big Oyster' tells of how polite society in New York was scandalised by women who dined in non gender-segregated venues. And the BBC had a piece the other day on how Germans used to be cannibals before, er, they became Germans.

      So absolutely societies evolve over time. Perhaps Somali society is more evolved now than it used to be. Dunno.

      But that's really besides the point. Just because cultures are capable of evolution that doesn't mean that we can't make value judgments about their comparative worth. You make a value judgment on Patrick Stewart's dad and I make a value judgment on Somali culture.

    7. Sunny H — on 7th December, 2009 at 6:20 pm  

      You don't reallise understand what it means to live in a liberal society do you marvin?

      His reason why he thinks minarets in his home area (Bradford?) should not be allowed was simply “that they are too divisive”.

      I find right-whingers in general too divisive. Can you ban them for me please?

    8. BenSix — on 7th December, 2009 at 7:01 pm  

      To comment, briefly, on the article…

      This is a confrontation between local, working-class voters (and some middle-class feminists) and Muslim immigrant newcomers who feel that they are entitled, not only to practice their religion, but also to replace the local political order with that of their own.

      Shorter Hirsi Ali

      Muslim immigrant newcomers have tried to replace the Swiss political order with that of their own. That is scientific fact. There's no real evidence for it - but it is scientific fact.

      The issue, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been “Muslim immigrant newcomers…tr[ying] to replace the…political order with that of their own“, but the suspicion that they'll try in the future. Hirsi Ali seems so content with own position that she never gets round to justifying that statement.

      If those people who cry that Europe is intolerant are right, if there was, indeed, xenophobia and a rejection of Muslims…there would have been an exodus of Muslims out of Europe.

      No, because that assumes that a) they can move and b) they'll have a better life elsewhere. If her logic is true, however - hey! - there's no sexism (women would have moved elsewhere), racism (ethnic minorities would have just left) or homophobia (gays would have long-since scarpered).

      Ben

    9. Cauldron — on 7th December, 2009 at 8:11 pm  

      Ben, what's your reaction to AHA's sentences immediately preceding the ones you quote? Namely:

      “The pragmatists, most of whom are power holders, are partially right when they insist that the integration of Muslims will take a very long time. Their calls for dialogue are sensible. But as long as they do not engage Muslims to make a choice between the values of the countries that they have come to and those of the countries they left, they will find themselves faced with more surprises.”

    10. Reza — on 8th December, 2009 at 2:32 am  

      Why aren't any of the 'clever' people on this blog claiming that “Ayaan Hirsi Ali” is white racist pretending to be a black ex-Muslim?

    11. marvin — on 8th December, 2009 at 2:51 am  

      Mate if right whingers (ho ho ho) wanted to start building structures towering over and imposing on the skyline to symbolise their ideology, i.e. building new cathedrals I would support a ban. Isn't it important how non-Christians feel? Or do they have to feel anxious for tolerating a small, imposing, minority of Christians? Especially since it is not part of the theology to have a domineering structure in the sky line.

    12. Reza — on 8th December, 2009 at 2:54 am  

      “…Does he think she makes valid points in that book, or does he think she's making it all up? Does he agree with her critique of the utterly useless nature of Somali culture or does he believe all cultures are equal?

      Maybe our schools ought to celebrate this wonderful culture by having a Somalia day at which all the kids get to dress as pirates, take turns to be at the bottom of the class and go around mutilating the girls.

      It's a pathetic trick to snidely dismiss AHA in a sentence as a poster-child of neo-cons. Saves the left from the bother of having to address the issues she raises.”

      Spot on!

    13. dnotice — on 8th December, 2009 at 3:03 am  

      How is “Somali culture” (or even what you claim it to be) relevant to Switzerland?

    14. BenSix — on 8th December, 2009 at 3:05 am  

      Cauldron…

      1. Describing the “pragmatists” as “most[ly]…power holders” is poisoning the well a bit.
      2. I agree that, if one moves from culture to culture, one may carry over values from the former. Sometimes, if those values are particularly illiberal, that can be problematic.
      3. The “engage Muslims to make a choice” bit is just wibble. What form would this “choice” take? What suggests that the “choice” - whatever it is - would be more successful than the status quo? She should have cut back the rambling elsewhere and concentrated on this point.

      Reza…

      Why aren't any of the 'clever' people on this blog claiming that “Ayaan Hirsi Ali” is white racist pretending to be a black ex-Muslim?

      Oooh, I know this one! Because she isn't!

    15. Cauldron — on 8th December, 2009 at 3:29 am  

      dnotice:

      Well, the whole thrust of AHA's article is that the Swiss vote was a symbolic protest against a certain type of culture. AHA understands that protest because she has escaped from precisely the type of culture that the Swiss fear, namely Somali culture.

      I'm pretty sure the good burghers of Zug don't fear the type of Muslim who hosts those fabulous parties at Karachi's Sind Club.

    16. A.C. — on 8th December, 2009 at 4:21 am  

      I'll only listen to criticism of Ayaan Hirsi Ali from someone who has done the same or more than her to prevent forced marriages and FGM.

    17. Cauldron — on 8th December, 2009 at 4:59 am  

      @BenSix. Thank you for replying

    18. danbrowne — on 8th December, 2009 at 8:18 am  

      @Cauldron

      There's nothing wrong with value judgements. Crude generalisations about the 'worth' of cultures you don't know anything about are stupid.

      Dan Browne

    19. Reza — on 8th December, 2009 at 8:51 am  

      “Well, in a liberal society it'd be because their lack of comfort doesn't legitimise restrictions upon the liberty of others.”

      The problem is that the Muslim majority world today does not share this hallowed belief system. Actually, it never did. Rather, it has destroyed or built over synagogues, churches, and temples, and denied that such infidel places of worship ever existed.

      The Muslim majority world routinely restricts or even bans the building of synagogues or churches. And the silence from Muslims living in the West on this issue is deafening.

      Clearly there is a double standard among many Muslims living in the West.

      It is time to demand—or at least to expect–reciprocity. Otherwise, we are really being racist in having one (higher) standard for the West and another (much lower) standard for the Muslim majority countries.

      Thus, if there can be no churches or synagogues built in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.— then why should the Swiss or the Europeans allow new, blockbuster size mosques and minarets, often funded with Saudi money?

      According to Imam Kurdi, writing in the Arab News,

      “And let’s not be hypocrites. If you held a referendum in a Muslim country asking whether the construction of new church steeples should be permitted, you are also likely to get an overwhelming no. So let us not brand this a Swiss phenomenon …”

      Clearly, Ayaan Hirsi Ali understands this.

    20. douglas clark — on 8th December, 2009 at 8:57 am  

      Reza,

      If we are to have an open society, then we certainly shouldn't be going down the same path as regressive ones.

      That said, if we must have religions at all, then I'd have thought that some diplomatic pressure should be exerted in favour of reciprocity.

    21. Reza — on 8th December, 2009 at 9:27 am  

      Douglas

      “That said, if we must have religions at all, then I'd have thought that some diplomatic pressure should be exerted in favour of reciprocity.”

      At the very least, we should prohibit the channelling of money and imams into Britain from countries that repress other religions and limit the freedom of Muslims to convert to other religions.

      And if only we could hear imams and Muslim organisations here, or indeed in the Muslim majority world, defending the rights and freedoms of other religions and Muslim converts in the Muslim majority world.

      Because the silence from the Muslim community on this issue undermines any complaint about discrimination towards Muslims in the West.

      It’s ironic that so many non-Muslim organisations in the West, both religious and secular, are so vocal in their support of the religious freedom of Muslims.

      Some reciprocity from prominent Muslim organisations on this would certainly improve the standing of Muslims in the West.

    22. John — on 8th December, 2009 at 9:28 am  

      When Is Banning a Mosque Not Islamophobic?
      http://www.spittoon.org/archives/4076

    23. Cauldron — on 8th December, 2009 at 9:33 am  

      @danbrowne

      All comments about groups of people, nations, classes, races, tribes cultures and any other agglomerations include by definition some degree of generalisation.

      In an ideal the world we'd discuss everything in a neoclassical framework and we'd be talking about the merits of individual A versus individual B. But this being a lefty forum and and me being a guest (when in Rome etc.), I thought I'd do the courtesy of adopting the language of group/class/identity-based analysis that the leftist political class prefers.

      OK, with that large caveat, can you tell me which of the following crude generalisations about Somalia you object to:

      1) Ayaan Hirsi Ali's judgements on the culture in which she grew up

      2) The statistics, from ONS and elsewhere, which point to underachievement (as proxied by education, incarceration and employment statistics) by Somalis relative to other third world immigrant groups when they get to live in the developed world

      3) The origin of most of the world's pirates.

    24. Libertyphile — on 8th December, 2009 at 10:08 am  

      Well, Guardian Cif readers seem to be overwhelmingly (800 comments and 12,000 votes or so!) in support of the Swiss ban. See here:

      http://libertyphile2.blogspot.com/

      The analysis gives also a good picture of why people support the ban.

    25. BenSix — on 8th December, 2009 at 11:04 am  

      Cauldron…

      No worries.

      MixTogether…

      I'll only listen to criticism of Ayaan Hirsi Ali from someone who has done the same or more than her to prevent forced marriages and FGM.

      In that case, John Pilger - who's done very brave things - must also be beyond criticism. Same for Robert Fisk; same for George Monbiot.

      Reza…

      Thus, if there can be no churches or synagogues built in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.— then why should the Swiss or the Europeans allow new, blockbuster size mosques and minarets, often funded with Saudi money?

      Because collective punishment isn't a great idea?

      The Saudi money is a more interesting point. What's the general principle - that institutions in free countries shouldn't accepted investment from tyrannies?

    26. saeed — on 8th December, 2009 at 1:16 pm  

      Ayaan Hirsi Ali's judgements on the culture in which she grew up said Cauldron. LOL she grew up in Kenya her dad was educated at cornell uni in the US an ivy League institiuion.

      Wow Cauldron do you know any somalis…why don'y you get of the net and go and meet some somalis…especially somali womans group.

      also why don't you consult the Centtre for Social cohesion report 'Crimes of the. Community. ' which painted a good picture of somali attitudes to women…esepcially in comparison with south asian and mid east attitudes…

      I bet sunny is pissed that his comment thread is beind invaded by naive racist goons like you who see fit to damm somalis on the basis of one womens comments….why don't you bother to look at the work of other somali women like Raquiya Haji Dualeh Abdalla, Hadiyo Jim'ale, Ayaan Osman, Roda DaudRoda Daud, Yasmin Mohamed Ladan Affi, or consult the countless womens gruops that operate in the west or back in somalia

      i could go on but a racist jerk like you just wants to see work that confirms his own prejudices…

    27. saeed — on 8th December, 2009 at 1:18 pm  

      Ayaan Hirsi Ali's judgements on the culture in which she grew up said Cauldron. LOL she grew up in Kenya her dad was educated at cornell uni in the US an ivy League institiuion.

      Wow Cauldron do you know any somalis…why don'y you get of the net and go and meet some somalis…especially somali womans group.

      also why don't you consult the Centtre for Social cohesion report 'Crimes of the. Community. ' which painted a good picture of somali attitudes to women…esepcially in comparison with south asian and mid east attitudes…

      I bet sunny is pissed that his comment thread is beind invaded by naive racist goons like you who see fit to damm somalis on the basis of one womens comments….why don't you bother to look at the work of other somali women like Raquiya Haji Dualeh Abdalla, Hadiyo Jim'ale, Ayaan Osman, Roda DaudRoda Daud, Yasmin Mohamed Ladan Affi, or consult the countless womens gruops that operate in the west or back in somalia

      i could go on but a racist jerk like you just wants to see work that confirms his own prejudices…

    28. damon — on 8th December, 2009 at 3:05 pm  

      Ayaan Hirsi Ali is stupid for saying that for sure. Or just deliberately provocative like Rod Liddle. This is a blanket ban on minerates I take it?
      And not sensible planning decisions that might be made against buildings (of what never kind) that were deemed to be inappropriate? So really dumb and offensive.

      I'm sure that there are plenty of people who might think that building things builds their standing wealth and career. And some of them I'm sure are Muslims too who are keen for more Islamic infrastructure and places of worship. Like the disputed (so called) ''Mega Mosque'' that Tablighi Jamaat wanted to build next to West Ham underground station.

      I'm nearly through Rory Stewart's book on spending a year in Iraq in 1993 as the deputy governor of Maysan Province just north of Basra, and his time seems to have been plagued by local people petitioning his office for funds for all kinds of building works and referbishment (including of mosques.) Many of whoom he thought were chancers trying it on.
      He keeps quoting Machiavelli at the top of each new paragraph as I think that's how he felt dealing with the tribal culture of the sheikhs was like.
      http://www.amazon.co.uk/Occupational-Hazards-Ti...

    29. camilla — on 8th December, 2009 at 5:00 pm  

      she is right. minarets are political stuff. period. there is nothing to discuss here.

      and who gave you that stupid idea that if a person is tolerant to islam - she or he must tolerate it's intervention to his life? must tolerate it's arrogant declaration of it's demands and ambitions, embodied in architecture? who told you that?

      actually that's the reason I consider the tolerance to islam is a bad thing - muslims' appetite grow day by day

      in Russia, we have a good proverd for that - “give him a finger - he bites the whole arm off” …

      there is nothing hypocritic about her reaction…

      the majority of people would be tolerant to islam if only muslims knew where to stop

    30. Cauldron — on 8th December, 2009 at 5:53 pm  

      Sticks and stones and all that Saeed. And of course Somalis knows all about stones, especially alleged adulterers.

      If you'd bothered to read my last post you'd of course seen that I completely agree that there are good or bad people in all cultures. So what? When making comparative judgements about cultures (not individuals) it's averages that matter and on average it strikes me that Somalis, when living overseas (I don't really care what happens in their own country) don't appear to produce a lot of Silicon Valley entrepreneur types but do appear to struggle educationally and vocationally.

      I do not apologise at all for suggesting that Somali culture is particularly ill-suited for the modern world and that the presumption ought to be that Somalis ought not to be top of the list of desirable migrants. Hard to think of any country that, when given a choice, would prefer to embrace migrants from Somalia relative to migrants from say Vietnam.

      Of course, if you have any real evidence to the contrary then I will happily stop making value judgements. I'm pleased that Somali culture has a better attitude to women than that found in the middle east. Wow. BFD. But I guess you have to start somewhere.

      If you have evidence of, on average, Somali over-achievement in education and employment for example please point to it.

      In any case, it matters not now. The UK is finally moving to a points-based migration system rather than a chain-based and smuggling-based system. Let's see how many Somalis make the cut.

    31. damon — on 8th December, 2009 at 9:42 pm  

      That book I mentioned is actually about 2003 and the rise of the Shia militias and the insurgency. I'm not going to denigrate anyone's culture like Cauldron has done, but they were a difficult people to govern under occupation.

      I do wonder if mosque building is always in line with genuine need. If it is then saying ''no minerets'' or being hostile to mosque building is Islamophobic.

      But I have no doubt (as people will always want to do business deals that make them money) that there could be deals done and permission asked for from the local authority (in Switzerland for sake of argument) to build a mosque, hotel and shopping complex in the mountains by a lake that would be a popular destination for muslim tourists.
      In their business model, they showed that they had financing from rich Gulf Arab states, and the Emir of Dubai had pledged money. There was also to be money from Saudia Arabia and Iran.

      It would be a destination that would become famous across the Gulf region and would attract business meetings and conferences from across the muslim world.
      I could see why some people might not like the plans.

      Some of the people who want to expand influence are wahabis and salafis, and it is understandable if their wishes were not always accommodated.

    32. saeed — on 9th December, 2009 at 4:52 am  

      I do not apologise at all for suggesting that Somali culture is particularly ill-suited for the modern world and that the presumption ought to be that Somalis ought not to be top of the list of desirable migrants.

      you're an idiot…look at somaliland a democratic, secular peaceful country made up of somalis…look up peter tatchell on somaliland…again you are an idiot…

      the stoning to death of that girl was by the shabab a crackpot lunatic islamist outfit…armedand outfitted by eirteria…i don't expect you to understand anything

    33. douglas clark — on 9th December, 2009 at 5:24 am  

      saeed,

      Thanks for the links. I didn't know about Somaliland. Bit of an eye opener, and in a good way.

      Others might enjoy this link:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slWoa9VAmX4

      I'd have thought a democratic state in the Horn of Africa should be getting a lot of international support!

    34. saeed — on 9th December, 2009 at 5:38 am  

      where is cauldron now eh…

    35. Cauldron — on 9th December, 2009 at 5:49 am  

      Yes yes Saeed keep on shouting.

      I'm fully aware of Somaliland thanks. And Puntland. I also wish that foreign nations would grant Somaliland de jure recognition - its a pity the AU won't let it happen.

      But what does that have to do with the academic and vocational underachievement of Somalis in western Europe relative to other immigrant groups? Forgive my idiocy in asking this question: I am too stupid to understand why my taxes are going to these benefit recipients.

    36. saeed — on 9th December, 2009 at 6:23 am  

      @ cauldron of course they are working they are also claiming state benefits as well LOL…you really are very naive LOL…

      do you also get as worked up at rich white peoples tax evasion as well or is it just the blacks that you hate!!!!!

    37. saeed — on 9th December, 2009 at 6:27 am  

      oh BTW the academic achievment of young somali girls is more than that of white working class boys…academic and vocational underachievement of in the somali community is experienced by boys…

    38. saeed — on 9th December, 2009 at 7:03 am  

      @ Cauldron…you do know that white working class boys do the worse in school

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3708770/Wh...

    39. Cauldron — on 9th December, 2009 at 7:21 am  

      Saeed:

      1) I oppose all lawbreakers, so tax dodgers and benefit cheats are equally reprehensible.

      2) Benefits/subsidies/bailouts should be cut for refugees and bankers alike. Both taxation and the welfare state are evil, as they discourage hard work, subsidise recklessness and encourage laziness.

      3) You are correct in pointing out the educational failings of the WWC. They too are authors of their own misery, because their culture values binge drinking over education. All members of the underclass, irrespective of race, should either be denied benefits, or only given benefits in exchange for being sterilised so that they do not perpetuate the underclass and burden future generations of hard working middle class taxpayers.

      4) As you can see from the above, I do not distinguish between races. However, I do accept that, in any country, indigenous illiterates ought to have priority over foreign illiterates by dint of being there first.

    40. saeed — on 9th December, 2009 at 7:37 am  

      fair enough cauldron…at least you are consistent in your ideology…

    41. d1001 — on 10th December, 2009 at 6:57 am  

      “I consider the tolerance to islam is a bad thing - muslims' appetite grow day by day”

      what on earth are talking about Camilla ??!!! unbeliavable how stupid you sound

    42. camilla — on 10th December, 2009 at 9:44 am  

      oh seriously, d1001? do I sound stupid? when open you stupid eyes, you, sheep, but there's no use in it if you have been so seriously brainwashed that I can fell sorry for you. or you are a muslim yourself.

      the stupidest thing is to believe that if you will be tolerant to muslims, they will be tolerant to you. they will treat you just like their religion tells them to.

      muslims demand more and more “rights” (actually privelieges) in non-muslims countries, but do they practice the same tolerance?

      is there much tolerance in muslim countries? on the contrary, persection of non-muslims increases every day, THIS IS THE ONLY SENCERE MUSLIM'S ATTITUDE TO NON-MUSLIMS - the way them treat them in ther (muslims') homes

      this is the only fruit of your tolerance

      I would recommend you to look for some information about christians life in muslims countries. but surely you'll say it has nothing to do with persecutor's and persecuted religion… oh yeah of course it doesn't when it come to muslims

      unbelievable that such mentally challenged people like you dare to reproach others

    43. camilla — on 10th December, 2009 at 9:50 am  

      do you think that anti-diffamation resolution was promoted by muslims to stop themselves to persecute other religions?

    44. Soso — on 14th December, 2009 at 10:01 am  

      What could Sunny possibly know abour Islam that a women born and raised ( and mutilated) in Islam wouldn't. She is far from the only ex_Muslims to support the ban because she understands the symbolism behind minarets and the grab for terrirotry they represent. MInarets aren't the quivalent of a Church steeple; they are the equivalent of a burning cross….as in KKK. Italy recently banned crucifixes from every classroom in the country, and this despite the fact Italy is almost entirely Christian. That banning was celebrated by the very same progressives who denounced the baning of minarets in Switzerland as a repressive and bigoted move. I've yet to see any pressure being placed by progressive and the myriad of HR groups on Saudi Arabia to allowe the construction of at least one church in a country that counts nearly 4 million Christian guest workers.

      IN the meantime, Switzerland which counts only 300,000 Muslims ( half of whom don't even work) has dozens and dozens of mosques that operate openly and freely.

      The size of the hypocrisy on the part of Muslims when it comes to reciprocity inthe filed of religious ointolerance can quite rightly be described as being pathological in its intensity

    45. d1001 — on 21st December, 2009 at 4:54 pm  

      seriously Camill who is the intolerant one here, spouting hatred and tarnishing all people in Islam with one brush?

      have you interviewed all muslims so you can say all that garbage? No-one is saying there is perfection…yes im aware of issues in muslims countries just as there are issues in non muslim countries.

      anyhow…i can't be bothered to enage with someone ever so narrow minded as this. My mere point was why the hatred??!!
      can't you just be a bit more rational about all this…

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