Rod Liddle’s racism further exposed
Rod Liddle has already been widely criticised for his earlier post generalising about black people. He has now become defensive over criticism and says:
My argument is much as it has always been; that the creed of multiculturalism is largely to blame, the notion that cultures, no matter how antithetical to the norm, or anti-social, should be allowed to develop unhindered, without criticism.
…
Now, clearly it is not racial discrimination which accounts for the under-achievement – because African Caribbean girls, Bangladeshi boys and girls and so on do not under achieve. So it must be down to something to do with the culture.Abbott’s decision to send her child to a private school suggests to me that she thinks it something to do with race rather than culture. To me, the notion is foul (and wrong-headed) that simply because a boy is African-Caribbean he will necessarily under-achieve.
There’s a few ways in which Liddle Rod confuses the debate. Firstly, multi-racial and multi-cultural are two distinctly different concepts, but Liddle keeps talking about races while attacking multi-culturalism.
He then tries to square the circle by saying that it must be down to the culture of African Caribbean boys (not girls) that must be at fault. Then he says its foul to think just because a boy is African Caribbean “he will necessarily under-achieve” despite just having implied strongly that being a black boy brings you into a culture that is inherently violent. The man makes no sense.
A few points. The key distinction in educational achievement is class, not race or culture. Middle class Indian boys and girls do fantastically well while working class Bangladeshi boys (here Liddle is wrong) do badly at school. Guess who does worse at school? Working class white boys. Will Rod Liddle now say that there is something inherently wrong with white working class culture that makes white boys do badly in education? Of course he won’t.
He’s obsessed by the idea of proving that black boys do badly at school due to the evil ideology of multiculturalism when the data doesn’t support it. In fact African boys do better at school than their Carribean counterparts due to class reasons too.
Liddle Rod is a confused twit who, in this case and other issues such as immigration, twists the facts to suit his own racist agenda. The Spectator did a great job of bringing him on board to blog – he makes himself and them look more idiotic.
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People seems to be spending a lot of time taking Liddle's utterances seriously. I'm reminded of Bill Hick's piece on Basic Instinct:
“Okay now. Yeah, yeah, end of story by the way. Don't get caught up in that fevered hype phoney fucking debate about that Piece-of-Shit movie. “Is it too sexist, and what about the movies, are they becoming too dddddddd.” You're, you're just confused, you don't get, you've forgotten how to judge correctly. Take a deep breath huuh, look at it again. “Oh it's a Piece-of-Shit!” Exactly, that's all it is. Satan squatted, let out a loaf, they put a fucking title on it, put it on a marquee, Satan's shit, piece of shit, walk away. “But is it too, what about the lesbian connot.. ddddd.” You're, you're getting really baffled here. Piece-of-Shit! Now walk away. That's all it is, it's nothing more!”
(Or, to quote David Aaronovitch: “It seems to me that there is only one state of ignorance more complete than total lack of knowledge, and that is the one engendered by sending Rod Liddle somewhere for a couple of hours.”")
I think that Liddle's ''human filth'' comments are terrible.
Because it links to a Daily Mail article which shows a couple of teenagers who look like the kids next door.
I feel this cheap shot by Liddle is loaded in a way that it wouldn't be if the photos were of some white youths convicted of beating a man to death in some place like Warrington.
So what he think's he's up to by publicly commenting like this I have no idea.
His wider opinion that there has been too much immigration and that it has damaged existing communities is a really contentious one, and I feel that we in Britain are incapable of discussing this in a civil manner.
It's presumed that all the world's people are interchangable, and that race and culture should count for little. But just up the road from where I am now (in Kuala Lumpur) is this mural on a section of a long wall that I think is a prison.
Most of the other sections of the long perimeter wall are painted with pastoral scenes and palm trees. But this (as you can see) is aged and crumbling, but has never been defaced. Even though it sits right next to a commuter railway station.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/181/366807671_d1…
It wouldn't last a week in the UK as so many people are opposed to the death penalty. In Texas it would probably last longer.
Back to Liddle. I think he really wants to pick a fight with the likes of Diane Abbott.
I think she is a total hypocrite for not being honest about why she sent her son out of Hackney to go to school.
It was more than just exam results. She didn't want her son to be mixing with the ''post code boys''.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyCOusMxGGo
And to become one of them. She prefers to blame the hard working (and surely stressed out) teachers (mostly white) for being racists.
So I don't agree with Liddle's comments in his first blog. Too crude and lazy (and racist).
But reading someone who is almost the opposite of him РDavid Aaronovitch as mentioned above РI feel that he's being too blas̩ for perhaps a majority of Britons.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/column…
It's the readers comments underneath that I think are worth reading.
Maybe British people aren't so different to Malaysians, and might favour measures that the left and liberals couldn't put up with, but are still popular.
It's not really a question of Rod Liddle – it's a question of the Spectator. They've been doing this sort of thing for many years, courtesy of Taki and so on. They're by and large the sort of people who cut their teeth as students winding up the lefties with “provocative” remarks and who have never ever grown up, or needed to. They think it's funny and clever because they're never affected by it nor know anybody who's affected by it.
Taki, Melanie Phillips, Rod Liddle, and for that matter a chess correspondent who's a serial plagiarist. It's a sniggering, getting-away-with-it club.
It's not really a question of Rod Liddle – it's a question of the Spectator. They've been doing this sort of thing for many years, courtesy of Taki and so on. They're by and large the sort of people who cut their teeth as students winding up the lefties with “provocative” remarks and who have never ever grown up, or needed to. They think it's funny and clever because they're never affected by it nor know anybody who's affected by it.
Taki, Melanie Phillips, Rod Liddle, and for that matter a chess correspondent who's a serial plagiarist. It's a sniggering, getting-away-with-it club.
“Middle class Indian boys and girls do fantastically well while working class Bangladeshi boys (here Liddle is wrong) do badly at school. Guess who does worse at school? Working class white boys. Will Rod Liddle now say that there is something inherently wrong with white working class culture that makes white boys do badly in education? Of course he won’t.â€
Class or ‘wealth’ does indeed appear to be the key factor in educational achievement.
However, the default position of multiculturalists is to blame poverty on factors in which the poor are blameless.
It’s easy to show up the fly in this ointment by considering social mobility in cultural groups. After one generation, a high proportion of the children of poor Vietnamese immigrants are no longer be poor.
Yet the children of Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian Muslim, African Caribbean, Roma and the ‘white’ underclass will remain, disproportionally, poor. And remain disproportionally so, generation after generation.
Individuals, communities, societies and nations don’t have defective cultures because they are poor.
The main reason they are poor is because they have defective cultures.
For multiculturalism to exist, there has to be a climate where ‘moral equivalence’ is the accepted wisdom. And moral equivalence can only exist in an environment of non-judgementalism.
And when you have this, you cannot blame the problems and failings of certain groups on their cultural deficiency.
That would be ‘racist’. Or rude. Or judgemental.
So their failure is blamed on ‘’society’. Or better still ‘white’ racism.
However inelegantly Rod Liddle has addressed these inconvenient truths, he is right.
It is only racist if you fail to mention that (a) white working class are also at the bottom education wise, and that (b) some minorities actually are the top. Taking into consideration these facts, the “multiculturalism/multiracial societies are at fault” makes little or no sense.
It also shows that it has nothing to do with culture or race. Your level of education is directly linked to your parent's level of education. If your parents are educated, they will most likely have stable and well paid jobs that allows them to stay at home with their children, tutoring them, and doing their best so that their children can attain similar or better education than them. Low income families are most likely to work long hours, spend less time with kids, have little possibility to help them in their school work, and provide less motivation of going beyond what they've achieved. Fortunately, there are a lot of exceptions. And it is rather pointless to blame people or communities for not breaking the cycle of poverty.
Please, please, please, please keep pushing this Rod Liddle story.
Please Sunny, please keep attacking him for that one brief blog piece.
Because the more you stir it up, the greater the number of people who will get to read his article for themselves, and the sooner the problems in the black community will receive proper attention.
Please keep attacking Rod Liddle instead of attacking the real problem. We wouldn't want people getting the impression that you actually care more about the black community than about cheap point scoring against right wing hate figures.
Reza I agree with you completely. It is embarrasing to see pundits like Sunny now trying to turn race issues into a class war, when they were the ones who stoked the race war to begin with.
How many timeshas Hundal banged on about 'brown vs white'? And now he's back-pedaling like the Labour party, trying to pretend that all the divisive identity politics they used to rely on can be forgotten.
But nobody is falling for it.
what does “the black community” need to do AC?
Spot on, Reza
That's it Sunny, keep making it about someone- anyone- else.
Just don't mention the problems that are affecting young black people whatever you do!
If you want my actual thoughts in response to your question, you can have them on a thread that deals properly with the subject. So why not start one?
Factually completely false. The children of British Indians from all religious backgrounds are disproportionately high achievers in the UK, not “British Indians except for those who are Muslims”.
So to raise myself to his level I can only note that Rod 'Viagra' Liddle seem to have thing for 'black' people, particulary young black men. Is this some sort of mid-life crisis of a similar vein that led to him 'experimenting' with those little blue pills? Can't he get it up anymore?
Save your breath AC. The Left will never admit that the rise of the BNP has anything to do with them. It's all the fault of Thatcherism, the Daily Mail and Imperialism. The Left's advocacy of identity politics, affirmative action etc had nothing to do with it.
I hear that, Cauldron.
“It is only racist if you fail to mention that (a) white working class are also underachievers, and that (b) some minorities are actually at the top. Taking into consideration the full facts and not just what fits the narrative, the “multiculturalism/multiracial societies are at fault” makes little or no sense.â€
If Rod didn’t, then I certainly did:
“…After one generation, a high proportion of the children of poor Vietnamese immigrants are no longer be poor.
Yet the children of Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian Muslim, African Caribbean, Roma and the ‘white’ underclass will remain, disproportionally, poor. And remain disproportionally so, generation after generation.â€
“It also shows that it has nothing to do with culture or race.â€
It does indeed have nothing to do with race, but everything to do with culture.
“Your level of education is directly linked to your parent's level of education.â€
This is only partially correct, as can be demonstrated by the educational achievement of different cultural groups. It has been demonstrated that the children of very poor and illiterate boat people who arrive in the US achieve better than middle class African American children as well as middle class White children.
“Only if you believe that Mad Mel is a highly intelligent, articulate and thoughtful commentator.â€
Melanie Phillips is indeed a highly intelligent, articulate and thoughtful commentator. It would be absurd to argue otherwise. The fact that you might disagree with, or even hate what she has to say doesn’t negate those qualities.
And “Mad Mel†is a pathetic ad hominem moniker. It perfectly exemplifies the debating feebleness and intellectual bankruptcy of the ideological left.
Using a term like that only diminishes the debater.
Actually, I would say that the recession and the fact that the BNP has been toning down its racist rhetoric explains the temporary rise of the BNP. After all, multicultural and multiracial Britain have been around for decades. And we know, recession is usually open season on immigrants.
We are talking about Rod, and you are defending him by saying he is telling the truth. You can't tell the truth when you hide part of the facts to fit the narrative.
The word “culture” can mean anything, so please define it. Do you consider white English working class individuals of a different culture than those in the middle class? Are British Indian Muslims of a different culture as Britain Indian Hindus?
At least you are honest for admiting that. I wonder if A.C. and Cauldron also agree with you on this.
Ravi Naik,
I don't care a toss about all these right wing hate figures. I'm sure there are people with right of centre political views who think Sunny Hundal is as much of a cock as left wingers think Rod Liddle is. Both sides have commentators who try to be controversial for their own pubicity.
The real debate here is about the levels of violence affecting black kids in inner cities. It would be nice to read a sincere post about that problem for once.
This post is about wankers who use problems affecting black communities to malign blacks in particular, and multiracial Britain in general. If you wish to defend Rod Liddle like Reza is doing, that is your prerogative. But do not think for a moment that you are a part of the solution.
Bonnie Greer says
“My response would be to say that the overwhelming majority of paedophiles, murderers, warmongers and football hooligans are white males and all we got in return was beans on toast and Top Gear.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/poli…
Warmongers?! LOL. I don't know. The Iraqi and Kurdish community in the UK were very warmongerish. The scumbags that they are…Murders? Proportionally no, paedophilia? Well it does seem that way. Football hooligans? Yeh. Though I don't think football hooliganism is a scourge on our society at large. Unlike groups of feral youths (black or white) attacking the defenceless. Anybody seen Harry Brown yet? Top film.
Am I offended? Who gives a toss. If it's basically true then why should I get worked up about it? Rod has taken the polemics too far this time – he should know better and have had solid stats to back him up. Like the 75% Trident stats.
Ravi Naik
<emThis post is about wankers who use problems affecting black communities to malign blacks in particular, and multiracial Britain in general
So how do you explain the last part of Liddle's new post:
Here’s someone else talking about the same issue. Trevor Phillips:
“I might have the result that you outline, but let's go back to the point here – what we need to do is stop people being shot and ending up dead in gutters at the age of fourteen or fifteen. Who are the people to whom that is happening? Way, way disproportionately black people. I think you will find that amongst the black community in this country there is more keenness for tough and active measures to rein in the gunmen than amongst anybody else, because they are the victims. So I think this – posing this as, you know, we're going to lock up a load of black people and let's, and that's an issue of discrimination, gets it completely wrong. The people who really want action are the black mothers and fathers that you see on TV mourning the deaths of their children.â€
Precisely. I hate racism, and always have. But the terror of being called racist by chancers like Abbott should not stop us being angry about crime levels which are a disgrace to our community. That’s OUR community; black and white.
Ravi, that ain't so. The rise of the BNP predates the current recession. In fact, there has been absolutely no correlation whatsoever in the past 40 years between changes in GDP and the electoral success of the far right. But there is a good deal of correlation between the success of the far right and the identity of the party in power. The BNP/NF do better under Labour.
Another way to gauge the depth of racial tensions in the UK is to look at social surveys. The Ipsos MORI poll of “The Most Important Issues Facing Britain Today” is the longest running survey of UK public opinion. Take a look at the full data series. It makes interesting reading. This also shows little correlation between racial tension and the state of the economy. But it clearly shows how racial tensions have steadily increased since Labour came to power in 1997.
Here's the link:
http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/…
Ravi Naik
And I note that you have not provided one single solution to the problem of violence. All you do is rant about Sunny. I guess it is a matter of priorities.
See my answer to Sunny above. I will happily put forward my ideas on a dedicated thread about the problems affecting the black community.
Join me in calling for one. Or shut up.
Off topic but I won’t let you get away with your last comment Ravi.
“Melanie Phillips read English at St Anne's College, Oxford.â€
So it’s not unreasonable to assume she’s “highly intelligentâ€.
She has written for The Observer, The Sunday Times, The Daily Mail, The Jewish Chronicle and The Spectator. She is a regular guest on Any Questions, Question Time and the Moral Maze. The BBC has said that Phillips “is regarded as one of the [U.K.] media's leading right-wing voices”.
So that would support my description of her as “articulateâ€.
Her ‘controversial’ book, Londonistan is a best-seller. She’s won The Orwell Prize for Journalism and Sappho Prize (an award given to a 'journalist who combines excellence in his/her work with courage and a refusal to compromise') by the Danish Free Press Society.
So she’s clearly “thoughtful†too then.
You can read more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanie_Phillips
I happen to loathe Tony Benn’s views and ideology. However, I wouldn’t have a problem with anyone describing him as “highly intelligent, articulate and thoughtfulâ€. I’d also add “consistent†to that list.
Yes, I believe he is wrong, and dangerously so, but I would never belittle myself to attacking his personality or trying to imply that he was somehow ‘unhinged’ without any evidence that that was true. (And let’s face it, if I were irrational and puerile, it would be easy to do so when you look at those wildly staring eyes).
How often to we hear the right describe that ideologically loathsome creature, Ken Livingstone as “mad� That’s right. Not very often at all.
He’s called “Redâ€. A simple statement of fact.
Clearly childish and pathetic ad hominem attacks are used disproportionally by the left.
And without any factual basis whatsoever.
But clearly truth and evidence matter little to the left.
Cauldron, agred. Richard Barnbrook was elected to the London Assembly BEFORE the recession began (but after Lee Jasper was sacked).
Reza,
Being intelligent is only a part of it. Being rational helps too.
And that's your opinion. I can respect that.
What I have no respect for is the lazy and puerile practice of describing people with whom one may disagree with as “mad” or “stupid”.
The left have always done this. They did it with Thatcher, they did it with Reagan, and with Bush senior and junior.
It is a valid matter of opinion as to whether those people were wrong, or even wicked.
But none of them were ever “mad” or “stupid” as claimed ad nauseum by left-wing commentators.
Just look at people like Sunny for whom this type of baseless ad hominem attack has become the debating norm.
On this issue, I feel that the right demonstrates far more integrity.
Anyway, I made my point. I won't divert this debate further.
“Yet the children of Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian Muslim, African Caribbean, Roma and the ‘white’ underclass will remain, disproportionally, poor” This is a statement of such monumental ignorence its hard to know where to begin. The kicker is the later statement that culture creates poverty. Any evidence for this?
What does create poverty, johng? And, for that matter, what creates wealth? I'd love to know the secret!
I know I shouldn't indulge, but what the hell…
“Anyway, I made my point. I won't divert this debate further.”, no really? I thought that was you main line of argument in PP.
Reza how mant times are you going to use the phrase 'Ad hominem'? Have you learnt it recently?
And what part of denying evolution, climate change, suspecting Obama of being a closet Muslim, thinking gay rights as 'toxic' would you not consider as 'mad' or 'stupid'? (All these points are made in the article you just linked to.)
And by your logic – whereby “Individuals, communities, societies and nations don’t have defective cultures because they are poor. The main reason they are poor is because they have defective cultures” – all cultures are defecite as all societies will have poor communities??
You're in good company with Melanie, keep it up.
By the way does your admiration streatch all the way back to the late 70s when was for exposing degrading treatment of immigrant women for the Guardian or only after she 'defected' to the right?
And again, “Ad hominem” #3.
Actually you are grossly mistaken: it is not a matter of disagreeing. Mel Philips is a deranged individual who delves into paranoia and conspiracy theories. That's a fact that can be seen in her articles. As a result, very few take her seriously, and the fact that you think she is a thoughtful, reasonable and intelligent person does not surprise me at all. It also does not surprise me as well the fact you did not answer my questions about what is culture in the context we were debating, nor provided evidence of a study that demonstrates that “children of very poor and illiterate boat people who arrive in the US achieve better than middle class African American children as well as middle class White children.”
I want Reza to define culture: are white working class individuals of the same culture as white middle class?
Ravi, you just don't get it do you? Only defective cultures have poor people. So we don't have poor people, either that or 'white' poor people do not qualify as 'English'. Q.E.D !!
Maybe Reza also 'read English at Oxford' with Ms Phillips. Or was it Latin? Ad hominem, ad infinitum, amen.
Actually that's an interesting point Ravi
Yes and no is the boring answer.
Ravi
You can find massive amounts of evidence on the web regarding the gap in educational achievement (usually evidenced by IQ and SATS scores) between children of different ethnic and racial backgrounds.
Differences exist, and cannot be satisfactorily explained by concepts such as individual or institutional ‘racism’, poverty, or the educational level of the parents of those children.
Here’s an interesting table:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=461
And here’s a bit more on the US ‘Achievement Gap’:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achievement_gap
“… Blacks and Latinos and students from poor families perform worse in school than their well-off White and Asian peers. SAT scores broken down by family income show when students have similar family incomes, Black and Latino students still score lower than Whites, and Whites score lower than Asians with similar incomes…â€
What could possibly explain these gaps, other than culture?
Now Ravi you asked me to define culture. Here’s a definition I like:
“The totality of socially transmitted behaviour patterns, values, beliefs, customs, and all other products of human work and thought and the predominating attitudes and behaviour that characterize the functioning of a group.â€
This is a huge area for debate, and one we’ve had before. However, the one thing that we can be sure of is that all cultures are not the same. Even if multiculturalists believe that all cultures are somehow equivalent, surely you cannot believe that they are all the same.
I do not believe that it takes a huge leap of intellectual thought to conclude that the very high levels of educational achievement among the children of Chinese immigrants and the very low levels of educational achievement among the children of Bangladeshi immigrants has something to do with the definition of “culture†I gave above.
Or are you saying it’s because Bangladeshi kids are thick? Or is it because our society is particularly racists towards Bangladeshi’s?
You tell me Ravi.
And yes, white working class individuals do share a similar (but not identical) culture with the white middle class.
However, the white ‘underclass’ of largely unemployed welfare dependant people, born to unemployed welfare dependant people, having child after child to different fathers, is a different culture altogether.
And as such it is every bit as defective as the cultures of many members of, for example, the Somali, Bangladeshi, Roma, Pakistani cultural groups, as every social measure will evidence.
The lesson here is that rather than being encouraged to ‘celebrate’ or ‘value’ demonstrably defective cultures, the victims of those cultures should be encouraged to adopt a culture that is demonstrably successful.
Having known young black men since I was born I have noticed the one thing that appears to realise under-performance is this: culture.
The black African friends I have seem to do just as well as the white middle classes or Indians and the Caribbean friends of mine seem to under achieve in school because of a lack of role models amongst the Caribbean community who have, much to their own chagrine, bred amongst their midst a generation of fatherless, angry black teenagers who further fulfill the negative stereotypes that surround their community.
I'm not going to waste any time arguing about Melanie Phillips with you, or whether you happen to know she is “deranged” or that “very few take her seriously”. Suffice to say that for someone who regularly asks for evidence, you rarely provide any yourself and you're rather fond of making baseless pronouncements.
As for your question regarding the fact that the children of very poor and illiterate boat people who arrive in the US achieving better than middle class African American children as well as middle class White children, I believe it was discussed in this excellent documentary about the social construct of ‘racism’. You should watch it:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1084394…
It is interesting that you are now pitting Chinese immigrants and thier descendants against African-Carribean and Bangladeshi. You have chosen a community that must be the least 'assimilated' in this country in terms of politics, arts and the media. This runs quite contrary to what you have been bleating on about in other posts. So as I have noted before, picking and chosing whatever (contradictory) bits of information in trying prove your petty world view.
I would imagine there are quite successful people in Bangladesh – you know businessmen, poets, writers, musicians &etc – and other countries you mention, so when does a culture become defective? Is it only when their poor end up on our shores? So is the argument that poor people are defective?
Reza that video is great, will be watching it with (non white!) friends later this week
Poor Liddle is being over-attacked. Let's recall that he is a true little Englander – a patriot from Middle England and upholder of Empire. He is understandably frustrated by the presence of so many rather dull and boorish South Asians sullying his beloved land.
Can we honestly expect him to be inspired by South Asian culture and practices? Like me, he must be finding them insuifferably boring. – they have their Bollywood films (with childish themes and mindless gyrations), curry, yoga, astrologers and strange religious ritual. Plus lots of corner shops manned by wooden faced gits selling sweets and papers. Is there anything else?
I am sure Liddle must be sick and tried about the two Indian epics, Bharat Natyam and such He must be looking for something new, intellectual and creative and finds none. So in his frsutration he slams the whole culture. Time for the South Asians to engage in reflection and self-criticism.
If you read her articles and feel that she is highly intelligent and thoughtful, then I guess there is not much debate possible. But here is http://episkoposcain.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/mad-mel-the-unhinging/” rel=”nofollow”>one example.
The idea that racism is a social construct and a myth to keep the white man down quite frankly is amusing . I guess the KKK, nazism, blacks not being able to vote in the US before the civil right's act, segregation, skinheads were all a fairy tales like the Holocaust. And what exactly are boat people? Do you mean Vietnamese and other Southeast Asians?
So, you believe that you can't be Bangladeshi and be rich and achieve a high educational level. And you do not believe a Chinese can be poor and illiterate. You also do not believe than an Indian in India can be rich and successful, because he shares the same culture as someone that lives in the slum.
So, which cultures should white working class and others should adopt, and how we can “encourage” them to change their ways? And you have to tell me where the evil multiculturalists celebrate “defective” cultures.
Fucksake Ravi, has anybody here called racism a myth? You really are getting tiresome with your misrepresentations and lies. Have you seen the video?
Even Reza does not believe racism to be a myth. Sorry Reza.
Reza. Have you read Kenan Malik on Mel Phillips?
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/londonistan-by-melanie-phillips-409502.html
Phillips’s criticisms of multiculturalism and of victim culture, her exposition of the spinelessness of policy-makers and her excoriation of the decadence of the left, deserve a hearing. But so immoderate is her assault on British culture that it is difficult to take it seriously. Britain, she believes, is locked into “a spiral of decadence, self-loathing and sentimentality”, incapable of seeing that it is “setting itself up for immolation”.
Indeed I have (but I could be lying
. At the end of the “documentary”, the person who made the film says that racism is a social construct, which is the same as saying it is a myth or an invention for a particular purpose. If somebody says that the Holocaust is a social construct, what do you conclude, Marvin?
“Even Reza”? Don't think you are too different than him, Marvin.
And here is the Southern Poverty Law Center's review of this video.
Did your mother ingest a lot of lead while she was pregnant with you? Or was she also congenitally bigoted AND ill-informed and stupid and unfortunately passed it on to you? How many generations back does this genetic malfunctioning go? Have you ever looked for a cure? You seem like such a sorry little troll. Surely there's a damp grimy spot under a bridge missing you?
Ravi racism is a concept or an idea and people's definitions vary, but generally it's about discrimination, whereas the holocaust is an historical event, you cretin.
That's not the same as saying people do not suffer from racism. I do not think the video is excellent, but it did raise a number of points worth debating. Have you seen the video yet?
The video starts by saying “I … can’t think of another issue that is more artificial, manufactured and manipulated than this whole construct called racism”, are you honestly saying that he is not making the point that people not only not suffer from racism and discrimination, but that it is a social construction for a nefarious purpose?
Why do you feel the need to defend these people? What points do you actually agree with the video?
I managed 22 minutes of that piece of crap. Does it get better?
A bunch of Americans off cragslist who wanted to be interviewed? That's not an 'excellent documentary'. It's vapid posturing from a nasty piece of work. Are you seriously touting this as worthwhile?
A.C.
Reza that video is great, will be watching it with (non white!) friends later this week You're so precious. Never change.
Reza, you should read Kenan Malik's view of ''Londonistan'' It's three years old.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment…
Back to Rod Liddle. He's a racist because he talks cheap about how the area around Milwall football club (which he owes some allegiance too) has changed beyond recognition.
The white cockney people have died off or moved away, and to be on a bus down the Old Kent Road – (from The Elephant and Castle), you will be mostly in the company (on the bendy bus) of people who were not born in the UK. (Or so it seemed last time I was on it).
And to have a problem with that is what we call racism today (I think).
AJ Nakasila is someone we really don't want to be talking about, but Liddle does.
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatche…
He talks about ''himan filth'' and what he's talking about is a young AJ Nakasila and his mother, plucked from Congo by the UK asylum system and settled in Hackney.
In 2007, 9 of the 27 teenagers killed by gun and knife crime in London were of Congolese origin.
The montages of all the dead teenagers showed that they were nearly all black.
But still nothing to compare to Baltimore or Chicago.
Heh. It actually comes as no surprise to me that in a thread pointing out Rod Liddle's racism, the only thing you can do is support him and defend him and try and criticise me A.C.
In fact loads of people have emailed me in the past pointing out that you also happen tomake a lot of generalisations about black people that don't really stand up to scrutiny. And yet the minute you're asked to offer any evidence you start gibbering about some call for how I should write about the things you think I should write about.
I have an idea. Why don't you start a blog and write there about what you want to write about? This is my blog and I write here what I want to write about, not according to the whims of some trumped up little idiot who goes around pretending to be a saviour of ethnic minorities. The only thing you do is generalise about Asians and blacks like the racist Rod Liddle does. And then you get annoyed when no one pays you any attention.
You and Reza should start your own little project and leave this blog alone. It would be brilliant. You can sit there and scream about how lefties never listen to you inbreds.
'Inbreds' may not have been le mot juste, Sunny.
It doesn't surprise me Sunny that you play the man and not the ball.
The problem is the gun and gang crime, not the commentators. If you want my suggestions as part of a serious debate, start the debate on a dedicated thread.
Left blogs would rather let young black and Asian kids die than challenge their respective communities about the risks they face. If you can dispute that, provide some links and I'll take it back.
If you don't like it, you can always make your comments for registered members only.
I wish they would. The standard of debate has declined from four years ago,when I first developed an interest in blogs. I appreciate that some regulars from 2005 have moved on for various reasons, but if Reza and Marvin are the replacements and representative of right-whinge debate then maybe we should all give up.
I learned a lot from this blog, but now the wingnuts dominate debate everywhere. The internet is great for a lot of things, except that now the wingnuts have broadband and don't we know it.
In fact Sunny aren't you a bit embarrased that the first time gun/gang crime has appeared on either of your blogs is when Rod Liddle managed to get it there?
Aren you embarassed you haven't written about people who give blow-jobs to plastic blow-up dolls AC? I think you should. You know, just clear the air… it won't hurt honest!
David – I hear ya brother! I'm tired of of these mindless twits too.
Have you watched the video yet?
Another accidental 'like'.
I wish you would give up O'Keefe. I'm a centrist. A normal person. You are a far-left imbecile, trapped in your own 80's class war dogma.
Almost everybody on here I disagree with actually stops and makes me think, except you. You haven't a clue. What have you contributed to the debate? Sweet FA.
Yes, I have Marvin – every crappy minute of it. And you did not answer my questions above. Just in case you “missed” them, here they are again:
The video starts by saying “I … can’t think of another issue that is more artificial, manufactured and manipulated than this whole construct called racism”, are you honestly saying that he is not making the point that people not only not suffer from racism and discrimination, but that people actually lie for a nefarious purpose?
Why do you feel the need to defend these people, Marvin? What points do you actually agree with the video?
I actually want to know what a “centrist” and normal person would answer. Of course, Reza also thinks he is moderate and mainstream. So, both of you are in good company.
coruja
-“It is interesting that you are now pitting Chinese immigrants and thier descendants against African-Caribbean and Bangladeshi…â€
I’m not “pitting†anyone against anyone. In this debate, I’m arguing and evidencing the fact that children from some cultures are more likely to succeed educationally (and therefore economically) than children from others. Therefore, I’m presenting this as evidence that all cultures are not equivalent. Indeed I’m arguing that some cultures may be defective and that people born into and living in those cultures have a greater likelihood to fail educationally and economically and indeed, as Rod Liddle implied, have a demonstrably greater propensity to commit violent crime.
Now all the evidence supporting this argument should make these conclusions obvious to any intelligent person. However, history has shown that those on the left will initially deny that the evidence exists, and when that stance becomes untenable, they’ll claim that discrepancies in success or behaviours between cultural groups is the fault of a ‘racist’ white society. Without any evidence, naturally.
-“You have chosen a community that must be the least 'assimilated' in this country…â€
This is irrelevant to the context of this debate. Whether or not assimilation is desirable doesn’t change the fact that clearly some cultures are better at promoting educational and economic success than others.
-“I would imagine there are quite successful people in Bangladesh…â€
Of course there are. What is it about lefties and your failure to comprehend the concept of proportionality? Despite the fact that some people in Bangladesh are educated and wealthy doesn’t change the fact proportionally, British ethnic-Bangladeshis are more likely to be poor and uneducated than the children of British ethnic-Chinese, regardless of the wealth or education level of their parents.
And finally, here’s a piece of ‘killer-evidence’ to support Rod Liddle’s implication that there is something inherently wrong with ‘Black’ culture, (regardless of the fact that this evidence should not even be necessary when considering the disproportional failures of that cultural group, in education, economic success and criminality).
This research, conducted by the Pew Research Centre in 2007, concerns the ‘downward mobility’ of middle class African-American children in the US:
“A major problem currently facing the American black middle class is the threat of downward mobility, which affects middle-class blacks significantly more than the rest of the middle class. A report done by the Pew Research Center in 2007 reveals that of the sons and daughters of the black middle class, 45% of black children end up “near poor”, and the comparable rate for white families is 16%.[3] The trend of downward mobility has caused the overall majority of middle-class-black children to end up with lower incomes than their parents. While 68% of white children earn incomes above their parents, 31% of black children earn incomes more than their parents did.[3] The trend of downward mobility could be caused by the lack of married blacks, and the number of blacks born out of wedlock. As of 2009, 72% of black babies are born out of wedlock, compared with 28% of white women.â€
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_middle_class
Actually, you prove nothing of the sort. You are providing a snapshot of the socio-economic status of the black community in the US, which yes, it is very problematic. But what is actually there to suggest that it is their culture that prevents them from going up, and not the fact that the majority of blacks are born in poverty?
You assume, wrongly, that whites and blacks in the US are born with the same economic and educational advantages, and because blacks have their culture, they go downhill, while whites go uphill. And you are WRONG about the boat people (assuming you meant Vietnamese and other neighbours from South East Asia ) – they are actually one of the most depraved ethnic groups in the US and the most illiterate.
If the bald numbers for the UK are correct the least integrated group are young white males in the lowest social groupings. That particular grouping has no bottom level incidentally.
Here is one statistic about their disadvantage:
http://tinyurl.com/7mlhgl
-“Actually, you prove nothing of the sort.â€
But I do.
-“But what is actually there to suggest that it is their culture that prevents them from going up, and not the fact that the majority of blacks are born in poverty and have parents with poor educational background?â€
Did you actually read the evidence?
Here it is again:
…A major problem currently facing the American black middle class is the threat of downward mobility, which affects middle-class blacks significantly more than the rest of the middle class…
We’re not talking about “the majority of blacks are born in poverty and have parents with poor educational backgroundâ€. We’re talking about the children of MIDDLE CLASS black people.
-“You assume, wrongly, that whites and blacks in the US are born with the same economic and educational advantages, and because blacks have their culture, they go downhill, while whites go uphill.â€
The evidence I presented compared like-with-like in terms of the respective economic backgrounds of the black and white families.
-“And you are WRONG about the boat people (assuming you meant Vietnamese and other neighbours from South East Asia ) – they are actually one of the most depraved ethnic groups in the US. This actually vindicates my position.â€
It doesn’t vindicate your position at all. But why not consider the relative educational success of children from poor ethnic-Chinese parents instead. How would you explain that?
-“Don't let this discourage you, Marvin and other equally normal and centrist people from doing your best to defend Rod Liddle, Mad Mel, and those “excellent” videos that state that racism is one is most artificial, manufactured and manipulated social constructs ever made. I would include A.C. in that list, but I think he is just utterly confused.â€
As usual Ravi, you fail to provide a single coherent argument, never mind a modicum of evidence, to explain why children from certain cultural backgrounds do so much better or worse than children from others.
You really are a ‘believer’ aren’t you?
It is clear from the link you provided that the black middle-class is not the same as the white middle-class – both economically and educationally – as well as the fact that a black child is more likely be born with a single mother and out-of-wedlock than a white child, which is more likely to be raised by two parents. The article points out that this is one of the explanations of this downward move. So, the playing field is not the same. What's more, white people in the same situation are also likely to get poor… do you actually say that they have a “defective” culture or that they are adopting black culture?
What poor ethnic-Chinese parents are you talking about?
I have parroted what several people who actually have studied the subject said (I suggest reading freakonmics) – that it is your parent's educational level and economic status that has strongest correlation to success, not culture or even race.
We all are.
Ravi
- “… as well as the fact that a black child is more likely be born with a single mother and out-of-wedlock than a white child, who is more likely to be raised by two parents…“
This is cultural is it not? The ‘babyfather’ culture that disproportionally affects the black community is simply “a socially transmitted behaviour pattern†from my definition of ‘culture’. Obama gets it. Perhaps you can too.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7509142.stm
- “What poor ethnic-Chinese parents are you talking about?â€
Surely you’re not denying that the children of ethnic-Chinese immigrants don’t perform disproportionally well in schools? Because if you were, then there really isn’t any point debating with you. This is an accepted and widely discussed fact.
Here’s an interesting piece of research that links the disproportional educational success of Chinese children to Chinese culture. Scroll down to “cultural expectationsâ€:
http://www.csse.ca/CJE/Articles/FullText/CJE26-…
“I have parroted what several people who actually have studied the subject said (I suggest reading freakonmics) – that it is your parent's educational level and their economic status that have the strongest correlation to success, not culture or even race.â€
And you have failed to provide a single piece of reputable and empirical evidence to support your view.
I asked you before. How do you explain the disproportional educational success of the children of ethnic-Chinese children here and in the US compared to the success of every other cultural or ethnic group?
And a ‘believer’ believes as a matter of faith over rationality or evidence. Think about it while you’re unsuccessfully trying to find reputable evidence to support your view or disprove mine.
It is a social problem that affects a good part of the community. But to call social problems as part of an ethnic culture is just wrong.
I hope I do not have to repeat this again. My position is that an individual's success is strongly correlated to their parents educational level and their economic status, not culture or race. You mentioned the boat people as a counter-example, but that vindicated my position for the fact that they actually are a disadvantaged group. If you want to bring the ethnic Chinese as a counter-example and I never disputed that like the Indians they do pretty well in school, you need to prove that their parents are poor and come from low educational backgrounds, in order to make the point that despite those disadvantages, their culture corrects that. As far as I know, a good part of our British Chinese come from Hong Kong.
I guess I cannot match authors you consider excellent, highly intelligent and thoughtful.
British Chinese students perform better irrespective of their social class, or background, gender or religion.
Link:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1502158
Where is the killer link to show British Bangladeshis under-perform irrespective of their socio-economic background, gender or religion?
Funny isn't it how we can use what is a positive achievement in the British Chinese population and use it to denigrate other groups? I mean, why can't we just celebrate the success of Chinese Britons? Period. No, we must go on and say, well the Chinese manage to do OK, but these Blacks and Bangladeshis , they're a bit useless..
Very good points made. Underperformance is more about class than race.
A complementary article is
Yet another racism row in Britain. Journalist Rod Liddle blames violent crime in London on black men.
http://www.savablogs.info/2009/12/yet-another-r…
***British Chinese students perform better irrespective of their social class, or background, gender or religion.***
Note that recent research suggests that 7% or more of all our genes are mutant versions that replaced earlier variants through natural selection over the last tens of thousands of years. There was little gene flow between continental clusters (“races”) during that period, so there is circumstantial evidence for group differences beyond the already established ones (superficial appearance, disease resistance).
For example, you see new versions of SLC6A4, a serotonin transporter, in Europeans and Asians. There’s a new version of a gene (DAB1) that shapes the development of the layers of the cerebral cortex in east Asia.* There is no strong evidence yet for specific gene variants (alleles) that lead to group differences (differences between clusters) in behavior or intelligence, but progress on the genomic side of this question will be rapid in coming years, as the price to sequence a genome is dropping at an exponential rate.
There is already considerable evidence that groups mature at different rates and that mental ability is significantly heritable. Ankney, C. D. (2009). Whole-brain size and general mental ability: A review. International Journal of Neuroscience, 119, 691-731
*http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.0030090
http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?reque…
I’m sorry, I cannot stop laughing at Reza trying to offer empirical support for Liddle’s piece…by offering stats from the US and for African Americans, a COMPLETELY different cultural group to Britons of Caribbean descent. There is no such thing as ‘black culture’ the term black merely describes people of a certain ethnic background, their culture is defined by class and country of origin.
You may as well argue that the culture of White English people and white Greeks is the same.