BBC Panorama, Interpal and Hamas
Last night the BBC aired a Panorama documentary alleging that the British charity Interpal had tight links with Hamas. Actually it was more insinuation and smear than actual evidence since the BBC did not bring anything new and factual to the table. No investigation has been launched because, well, the Charity Commission has already investigated and given it a clean bill of health. Pickled Politics covered this before. You can watch the documentary online.
Given the charity has also successfully sued the Daily Telegraph, Jewish Board of Deputies and the Jerusalem Post, one wonders what the point of all this was?
I don’t normally agree with Osama Saeed but he makes a few good points:
A Palestinian head teacher denied that her school had ever been raided by the Israeli army, but he maintained it had, and that a computer seized from there had pictures of violence on it. For Ware, she was lying, and the Israelis could do no wrong.Ware’s goading of young boys in an orphanage as to how many of them wanted to be fighters was sick beyond words. It was unnerving how he managed to continually divorce himself from his surroundings in pursuit of his agenda. Who were these orphans? How were they orphaned? Why did it seem that there were so many orphanages in the Palestinian territories?
This is not Beverly Hills he was touring. This was a nation under military occupation. Children didn’t sing songs inspired by Hamas – these songs existed before Hamas. The circumstances that brought the songs were the same that brought Hamas – killing, displacement, occupation, humiliation.
This much is true. Why was context not provided? Sounds like very agenda driven journalism to me, and not something the BBC should be proud of.
But something else was quite disturbing. Fairly early on, the documentary broadcasts videos of children singing along together. All very nice and cuddly except the use very violent lyrics. “There will be blood pouring…” etc.
Sure, these kids are orphans and there is plenty of anger at the Israeli government for not establishing a Palestinian state. But teaching them to sing about murder and violence when they are barely 7-8 years of age? Doesn’t anything think this might make them grow up to be… a bit violent? You know, given they sing along about killing people from the ‘Land of Lies’ before hitting puberty?
Hamas may not be directly benefiting from Interpal, but it certainly is from young kids growing up with violent propaganda. Does anyone really think this helps those children grow into morally well-adjusted people?
Anyway, I don’t know what the upshot of the documentary will be. It is doubtful that it will be banned by the Charity Commission, and most Muslims will see through the subtle use of imagery to smear the charity. It will probably get even more sympathy than before. And the BBC’s reputation for impartiality will fall further.
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This is slightly related to the recent accusation by the Indian Govt that front/charity organisations operating in the UK and Canada may have contributed to the Mumbai bombings last month.
The fact is that there are a lot of dodgy organisations that have and will continue to collect funds for their various ‘freedom fighting’ jolly rodgers around the world from sri lanka to Colombia. I touched on this point a while ago and it can be quite tedious to get into.
One of the most positive outcomes of the post Sept 11th ‘intelligence reformation’ is the tougher scrutiny many organisations are now subject to. The ability to track and trace funds is something that has long been neglected on the ‘fighting terror’ front but has now certainly helped to stymie the efforts of many guerilla groups around the world.
Im not familliar with the above example and I havnt watched the documentary yet – Interpal may be a perfectly genuine organisation. However I think people in the west do need to think a lot about who they donate to and where the money goes.
The truth can be hard to discover and with an emphasis on Al Qaeda less intelligence is available – those who seek to exploit the system know this and they sure as hell are going for it.
There is a brilliant example (pre sept 11th) i wanna use but its 4am and I cant be bummed digging through the Canadian Intel services archives for it
The reason for this post is that I’ve watched certain folks in the West harp on about terrorism and in the same instant support it elsewhere through simple (& often well meaning) naievity.
^What the heck is with that smileyface? Its supposed to be : P not
grunt grunt….
(all non-morrissey fans ignore)
But speaking of school children and unspeakable terrors…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDGTpxQM0JI&search=the%20smiths
The horror, the horror
PS. Strangely psychadelic. I thought smiley face was supposed to be
; – ) to make
Not that I don’t share your hatred for smileys
Anyhoo, back to the topic kids. I’ve got little to contribute other than kids singing violent songs is really no different from them playing Reservoir Dogs on the X-Box. Children only become violent when you force them to retaliate or give them cause to seek vengeance
Sorry SP. I’m wrong. Again.
Kismet…prepare for SmileyWar 3.
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/captions/fayed_dolls.jpg
yeah. Context should be pretty obvious: it should be possible to see how these kids have been traumatized, and work out what’s going on with them in the same way it’s possible to get how Israeli citizens feeling they want their country to protect them.
the chanting songs thing is disturbing yes -and yep: propaganda: – I guess training in the same way soldiers receive – when it comes down to it.
Burn Motherfucker Burn wasn’t it.. as shown on Fahrenheit 9/11.
Still – they clearly think they’re in a state of war. ( and we can see what seems to do to people – including ones who’ve had very little trauma) they probably also think there’s fat chance of growing up into well-adjusted kids ( i daresay with that much violence around that’s not surprising) – not particularly positive, or responsible but not suprising either.
precisely why the whole violence thing is so negative and problematic.
The idea that Diaspora organisations in the West may sometimes be more right wing/intolerant than folks on the ground (think some Hinudvta/Zionist/MPAC type groups) is alas a fact of life.
And as a Palestinian sympathiser and reader of Edward Said since I suspect some of the people on this forum were born, it saddens me that Palestinian liberation is nowadays seen as a religious issue – and thanks to emigration and secular Fatah corruption, desperate Palestinians in the Territories are prepared to vote accordingly along these lines
So actualy I think it is fair enough to be concerned about Palestinian schools ‘preaching hate’
Yet by overegging the pudding here and ignoring obvious context, Ware and the BBC do nothing for increasing understanding – and even worse – undermine their own much needed work on the MCB by giving Bungawala and co. some sort of “i told you they was zionist” self-justification.
Like the MCB programme last year, the focus is being pushed on the questions that John asked, not the frankly shocking responses he received.
The thing about investigative journalism is that it often might find a few things out and piss people off.
This programme is targeted at Islamists, not Islam. For people to claim that it targets Islam is to confuse the two.
Its interesting how people interpret how well the Headmistress faired. Personally I think that she was lying through her teeth, others think that she was honest claiming a distance from Hamas.
Lets recap on one of the bits of dialogue he teased from an interviewee:
———————
JOHN WARE: I’m curious about that little sign up there. What exactly is it?
HASHEM RJOUB, ORPHANAGE DIRECTOR: ‘Do not disappoint the orphan.’ This is a Koranic verse. The Koran encourages us to protect the orphan.
JW: And that red colour coming down the arm and spilling over the world? What does that signify?
HR: By God… It’s not clear whether it’s blood or not, but in truth it looks like it might be.
JW: It conveys to me a picture of Islam dominating the world, and if necessary through bloodshed.
HR: It’s true. This picture expresses the vision of the person who drew it. This doesn’t necessarily mean that these things exist. I want to stress that Islam has ruled most of the world without blood. There was no blood, it was through persuasion.
————–
This is called asking hard questions and getting an answer. Apparently its to be celebrated when Georgie boy does it in front of the American senate, but not when it is done in Gaza.
I think that the MCB ought respond to the answers that it got to its questions, instead of ignoring them and pretending that their questions stand.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4297490.stm
I don’t think that MCB understands the word “dialogue”, nor do I think that Islamists understand the word “debate”, but it doesn’t stop them from using these words.
TFI
Here is a comment which I believe is worth investigating:
“aroundtheworld
August 1, 2006 04:02 AM
I worked for a year in the mid 1990s as a journalist in Israel and the Occupied Territories. I thought I might add an interesting anecdote.
I once had dinner with three young, bright and beautiful female university students in Tel Aviv. They were all studying law at Tel Aviv University. The conversation turned to how the State of Israel is betrayed in the western media.
At some point the analogy between Israel and the Nazis reared its ugly head. This was with respect to the fact that the Nazis used racist ideology to justify their acts. (At great detriment to the Jewish people themselves.)
It was at this moment that one of the girls, who had been mostly silent during the evening, piped up. (Incidentally her father was a judge.)
She said, “Ah, but there is a difference. The Nazis, the so-called Aryans, thought they were the chosen race… the supreme race… But WE really are!”
Silence fell on the table while she nervously glanced around. She then said, “Well, that is what we are taught at school… ”
Not far from an experience I had with an American, again over dinner, on his return trip from Israel in the 80′s.
From
“For Israel, the shooting goes on but so does the weeping
The dovish minority understand that their state’s survival depends on finding peace across the Middle East
Ian Black
Tuesday August 1, 2006
The Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1834540,00.html
did anyone see the programme “judah and mohammed” on channel 4 last night? it was quite compulsive viewing although i only managed half of it. the part i found most compelling was the cutting between the two classrooms. now, i don’t want to sound smug about this, nor is this something i was already unaware of, but it was amazing (and not in a good way) to actually see in practice how the palestinian teacher was just parroting all the standard party lines in a rote-learning fashion. the students appeared to just have to give the ideologically “right” answer. it was chilling watching brainwashing in action. the israeli teacher, by contrast, appeared to be fighting a losing battle against the prejudice of his students (“who cares? they’re only a bunch of arabs and they want to kill us anyway”) – but at least he seemed to be trying to do the right thing rather than perpetuate the conflict. the sad thing is that the israeli kids are obviously learning quite a different, nihilistic message from their parents and the other influences on their lives. as far as the palestinian kids were concerned, i was left with the overwhelming sense that despite their own apparent desire to make something better, both the negativity and deprivation of the occupation and the obvious manipulation of their ideological development by their society left little room for hope. not surprising, but very, very sad.
it is equally sad to see muslim organisations in this country using the palestinians as a vehicle for all their fear and paranoia and an excuse to be angry. frankly, it disgusts me – and it doesn’t help the palestinians at all! sp!ked have a brilliant piece on this:
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/921/
the palestinians have been in trouble for a long time now and all they have had from their so-called “brethren” are empty promises and their use as whipping boys. it only goes to show that the only people who are going to help the palestinians in reality are the palestinians themselves. in fact, in the long term, their best prospects for cooperation and development are, ironically enough, the israelis. but probably not for a long time….
b’shalom
bananabrain
That the Palestinians are used as whipping boys for everyone’s prejudices is certainly true. There are bigots like OP who come here and insinuate that all Palestinians are terrorists so they should have no freedom etc etc… and we have other anti-semites who use the issue as a way to go on about the “zionist killers” rubbish.
It’s depressing discussing the issue with people on either side who only see bad in the other.
TFI – Well I guess it is a matter of perception. I don’t think John Ware turned up anything new or interesting that will prompt Interpal to be investigated again. I believe they are in fact contacting their lawyers again. Who knows if they will sue the BBC over it.
This is all insinuation that a number of other groups could not prove.
Refresh – What, never heard a Muslim brother say that Islam is the only chosen religion and others are false?
re: anti-semitism
In a religious context, it refers to the religions associated with the speakers of these languages: thus Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are often described as “Semitic religions”. This term can equally include the polytheistic religions (such as the religions of Tammuz or Adad) that flourished in the Middle East before the Abrahamic religions.
I googled that by the way, lest anyone mistake me for someone who knows what he’s talking about
“Refresh – What, never heard a Muslim brother say that Islam is the only chosen religion and others are false?”
Sunny, yes indeed. Not quite the point of the discussion here methinks. It is about kids, and education in their own environments.
I think you set that parameter.
Hi Refresh, sure but then I’m unsure as to what you’re insinuating. Did you watch the documentary and see what those young kids were singing? I don’t know if Ware brought that in as a subtle point to make but I bet that shocked viewers more than anything else. Their lyrics I mean. And they are the same as what you say above. I think both sides are culpable in this problem, not just one.
Pink Floyd got kids to chant anti-education songs. Last I heard, they all got educated without killing any teachers…
Sunny, although his claims may not have been new, he did turn up at these schools ask hard questions like “is that a Hamas flag outside”, “do you keep your personal policitics out of the school?”, “whats that picture with the blood over the door?” and show video of children in that school singing songs about death and destruction.
Is it that John Ware, or any sceptical white man, is disallowed from asking difficult questions of schools in the West Bank? The fact that he has the cheek to ask, to question, makes him automatically baised?
I very much doubt the BBC would air the programme unless John Wares research was water tight.
Hopefully this will get taken to the courts and more of this dirty laundry that Islamist propagandists don’t want us to see will be aired in public.
Perphaps we might have the oppotunity to have a grown up conversation about the sins and actions of both sides and reach some harmonous agreement.
From the wisdom of one my favorite movies:
Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name – wars, bigotry, but especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.
Bethany: Having beliefs isn’t good?
Rufus: I think it’s better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can’t generate. Life becomes stagnant.
We need less beliefs and more ideas in this world.
TFI
PS.
BTW. regarding Refresh, that’s exactly what I thought, although I might have put it less politely …
Hi Sunny, I did watch and thought if his last one (which I did not watch) was of the same quality as this one then John Ware has nothing to offer. It came across as patronising and almost childish in parts. The video work was just plain silly.
I think you should stop assuming I am insinuating anything, and see it for what it is – bringing into the forum an aspect you’ve not seen before.
I said in another thread on PP, a while back, pointing out that there are serious problems within Israel where there is (was) brainwashing going on of visitors. And its something that needs to be understood, and investigated.
Now the comment I pasted seems to suggest the same. In light of the discussion here it is vital to understand that this brainwashing is not one sided. The difference is one side is resisting occupation and the other is occupying. How the hell do we expect individual peace makers from each side to make headway when schools are doing this?
For over a decade I’ve read chatrooms and ‘blogs’ where there has been a constant stream of ‘insinuations’ that Palestinian children are being reared as terrorists and suicide bombers, and that hatred is being preached by the PA through text books etc etc.
Now to assume that Israel does not have its own way of mobilising all its young to join the IDF and remain reservists to whatever age – without brainwashing is just plain silly. Now if, according to that anecdote I posted, a judge’s daughter says what she says – it is truly depressing.
To not recognise the implicit hatreds being fostered and embedded and want debate is plain wrong.
So no insinuations – just material offered for debate. And yes if it offers an understanding viewpoint of a people fast losing hope. No apology. None whatsoever.
TFI, please go ahead respond in your own words.
ROFL!
Refresh, actually I think that your last post eloquently justified why you posted that section in this thread. I agree that there are issues on both sides. There is no shortage of people that think that they belong to the master race in some form or another. These people are rather stupid to see the world in such absolutes.
TFI
kismet/Leon,
While it is true that in the UK teachers are seldom killed in schools (over ten years since the last time) about 20% report physical assaults. And unless an assault results in hospital treatment then staff are often under pressure not to report it.
I don’t blame Pink Floyd but just pointing out that getting stabbed or bottled by pupils is a real possibility.
@ don, yeah I know and teachers are powerfuless to defend themselves etc but that wasn’t the point. Kismet comment was fecking funny is all!
Kismet comment was fecking funny is all!
No argument there.
Don’t mind me, I’m just another prick in the wall is all…
Refresh – sorry, I musunderstood your motives then. I agree that there is some brainwashing happening on both sides.
ask hard questions like “is that a Hamas flag outsideâ€, “do you keep your personal policitics out of the school?â€, “whats that picture with the blood over the door?†and show video of children in that school singing songs about death and destruction.
TFI – Sorry but those are not hard questions. A hard question would be something along the lines of: “We have found that some of the money goes to these groups that are using it to kill people. What do you say to that?”
Keeping personal politics out of school is sorta difficult when people are being bombed every day. You know?
Anyway, during the massive anti-war demonstration a few years ago, lots of British school children also had demonstrations against the war. Imagine John Ware going to one of those school and asking “Do you keep politics out of school?” It would be absurd.
Similarly, this was absurd. Lot’s of insinuation but nothing actually substantial to implicate Interpal.
Do a search on Google News for Interpal – it has led to no news stories at all. The programme sunk without a trace.
I was thinking that the mobile phone companies are missing an oppounity in the teenage market. They could utilize further convergence of everyday items by placing to a the mobile phone: a camera, a mp3 player, email, internet and a flick knife.
Doing it for the kids,
TFI
re: anti-semitism
In a religious context, it refers to the religions associated with the speakers of these languages: thus Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are often described as “Semitic religionsâ€. This term can equally include the polytheistic religions (such as the religions of Tammuz or Adad) that flourished in the Middle East before the Abrahamic religions
oh, for feck’s sake, not this again. look, anti-semitism is a 19th-century term that relates to jews alone, not “semitic religions” in general. it stems from a clumsy misunderstanding by christian scholars, which is nothing to do with anthropology or even linguistics. redefining it in this way is basically an old rhetorical chestnut, much used in the arab world: “we’re semites, so we can’t be anti-semitic”. what nonsense. presumably the next step is to say “well, the Torah preaches intolerance and hatred of the [polytheistic religions (such as the religions of Tammuz or Adad) that flourished in the Middle East before the Abrahamic religions] so, obviously, the Torah itself is anti-semitic”. OK then, so basically at the end of this, you end up not being able to use the phrase “anti-semitic”, except for the iranians of course, who are “indo-european”, so presumably they can still be anti-semitic against both jews and arabs! perhaps we ought to just curtail this whole argument and use following phrase instead:
JEW HATRED.
anyone got a problem with that? or is there some other way i haven’t thought of by which this term too can be rhetorically devalued? sheesh. or perhaps it’s all in my mind. either way, i refer you to bernard lewis’ excellent book “semites and anti-semitism”, which discusses the issue in exhaustive and beautifully written detail.
For over a decade I’ve read chatrooms and ‘blogs’ where there has been a constant stream of ‘insinuations’ that Palestinian children are being reared as terrorists and suicide bombers, and that hatred is being preached by the PA through text books etc etc.
if you’d watched the program i mentioned earlier last night, you’d have seen not insinuations or propaganda, but actual palestinian children being taught actual hatred in an actual palestinian school. no chatrooms, no blogs, just the unvarnished reality.
incidentally, if you put “palestinian”, “textbooks” and “incitement” into google, you get the rebuttal of the “chatrooms and blogs” end of things:
http://www.google.com/search?q=palestinian+textbooks+incitement&hl=en&lr=&rls=RNWG,RNWG:2005-06,RNWG:en&start=10&sa=N
if you add the word “memri” to this search, you get the pro-israel stuff too. for anyone that’s interested, you can find relevant material here:
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Ending_the_Incitement.asp
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?&ID=SR2203
obviously some people will see this as evidence, while others will see it as propaganda. like sunny says, it tends to depend on one’s existing point of view and confirmation bias.
I said in another thread on PP, a while back, pointing out that there are serious problems within Israel where there is (was) brainwashing going on of visitors. And its something that needs to be understood, and investigated.
really? as a regular visitor to israel, i must have been brainwashed then. or perhaps i didn’t need it, with my religion, relatives and good zionist upbringing. i’d be interested to see any examples of this that you can find.
b’shalom
bananabrain
Sunny, I was under the impression that John Ware had gone to a school funded by Interpal and he was researching its connection with Hamas, which appeared to be ingrained into its teaching. Hence the hard questions like “is that a Hamas flag outside”, “do you keep your personal policitics out of the school?”, “whats that picture with the blood over the door?” and showing video of children in that school singing songs about death and destruction.
I’m not sure what can be discredited other than Johns sneering tone when talking to people that are justifying sucide bombing.
TFI
Sunny,
I would suggest bringing in a poster’s faith or ethnicity as a measure of bias or motive is not acceptable; and it is only relevant when the poster offers it by way of bringing in fresh perspective or an alternate view.
Otherwise its just plain laziness.
Apology accepted.
“it saddens me that Palestinian liberation is nowadays seen as a religious issue – and thanks to emigration and secular Fatah corruption, desperate Palestinians in the Territories are prepared to vote accordingly along these lines”
Yep.
refresh no.10 – interesting that.
what refresh says here is obviously the case:
“For over a decade I’ve read chatrooms and ‘blogs’ where there has been a constant stream of ‘insinuations’ that Palestinian children are being reared as terrorists and suicide bombers, and that hatred is being preached by the PA through text books etc etc.
Now to assume that Israel does not have its own way of mobilising all its young to join the IDF and remain reservists to whatever age – without brainwashing is just plain silly.”
in as much as clearly once in the situation we have now its definitely the case that all sorts of hatred and justification of violence ( i.e. violent propaganda) is preached by both ‘sides’.
Yeah obviously – otherwise wouldn’t all the sane people have worked out it’s in everyone’s interest to collaborate and be friends rather than foes.
I can’t help but wonder what song the Lebanese children could possibly be singing now
They will sing whatever their parents taught them to sing.
TFI
Reel Around the Fountain
When a kid sees his family or classmates blown apart, whether by helicopter gunship or Katyusha rocket, they don’t need songs to hate those who did it and they are unlikely to be swayed by rationalisations.
But songs of hate stick around. Three hundred and fifty years after the siege on Clonmel, it was still a source of righteous hate. To formalise hatred as part of a national culture means that even if, by some miracle, the two sides manage a whole generation of peaceful coexistence there will still be a virus of hate transmitted by grandmothers singing by the fireside.
To ask Israeli or Palestinian or Lebanese children not to hate, right here, right now, is to ask them to be saints, and when we find one who manages it we should be humble. But those who deliberately set out to embed that hatred for future generations are candidates for a millstone.
“it saddens me that Palestinian liberation is nowadays seen as a religious issue – and thanks to emigration and secular Fatah corruption, desperate Palestinians in the Territories are prepared to vote accordingly along these linesâ€
Excellent point.
Ware’s goading of young boys in an orphanage as to how many of them wanted to be fighters was sick beyond words.
No, what was sick beyond words was that so many of them did. John Ware asked, through an interpreter, what they wanted to be. Not a leading question. The answer came back “mujhahid”. Ware said “a fighter?”, which is what “mujahid” means. No goading, just asking.
I thought this was an excellent documentary, exposing the sickness at the root of Palestinian “culture”. And it was great to see that bi-chadored bint lying through her teeth about all that jihado-porn that was found at the orphanage, then panicking when she was caught out.
Makes a change for the BBC to do a truthful documentary, instead of the usual anti-Semitic crap.
bint?
Apparently you post at a site with some sort of claim to intellectual credibility. So is this an alternate persona; the loud-mouthed bar-room bigot, dismissing millions of lives with a cheap platitude and a ‘what, me racist?’jibe?
Is there another OP we can read? One who has written anything that is not an easy sneer and an ugly lack of empathy? One who can put a positive argument, backed up by real expertise in a chosen field? The alter-ego of a worthwhile commenter?
Or is this all there is?
For someone who encourages small children to blow themselves up killing other small children, the word “bint” is too kind. This scheming corrupter of young minds is a terrorist enabler.
Oh, for that nice site, click on my name. Recently I’ve posted stuff about Islam, but generally my posts are about other stuff, for example my monthly article here.
I’ll take that as a provisional yes, until I get round to reading it.
But you don’t see bint as remotely piccaniny in context? I have a fund of abusive words to apply to bastards who put children in the line of fire. What made you pick that one?
Actually, “dozy bint” was an expression people used up North to mean something like “daft bugger”. My dad said it to me occasionally.
So, while not polite, it isn’t the worst word you could use. I can think of one ending in –nt that would be far worse.
My point, though, was that John Ware wasn’t making those boys say they wanted to be “mujahadin”. They said it. The little girls wanted to “make of their skulls a ladder to God’s glory”.
If Interpal’s money is funding this kind of thing, it is right that the BBC exposes it.
mash ‘em up Don
‘I can think of one ending in –nt that would be far worse.’
Gosh, what would that be? More or less a useful word than bint?
If Interpal’s money is funding this kind of thing, it is right that the BBC exposes it.
Yeah except no one has been able to prove it. And don / el cid please, stop humouring Old Pickler! She gets generally ignored on Harry’s Place anyway, I’d like to try the same here.
She gets generally ignored on Harry’s Place anyway
That’s where you’re wrong. Anyway, that’s Old Peculier, not me.
And nobody’s yet acknowledged that there is anything wrong with little kids being told that the best thing they can do is blow themselves up for Allah.
Why so coy Old Peculier/Pickler? Your hatred of Islam and Muslims shines through in every forum that you post.
And if you’re appreciated rather than ignored at Harry’s Place that’s because most of the posters happen to share your bigotry and hatred. Dozy bint’s a bit too kind for someone like you. You’re a malevolent bitch.
Toodle pip.
OP – yeah, whatever. Like, no one cares?
TFI – A point I wanted to make earlier. I am no fan of Hamas but given Fatah’s corruption and the constant hardships Palestinians have to go through, the organisation also doubles up as a charity. This is annoying, in the way that the RSS in India and the Shiv Sena in Mumbai also do lots of relief work that makes people appreciate them.
If Hamas has to go, as presumably John Ware wants it to go, then it has to replaced by something. A vacuum cannot exist. There would need to be a solid support structure (and guess who makes that difficult) and a certain country would need to stop shelling Palestinians and help them build security etc in a formed state.
It is chicken and egg, do you get rid of Hamas first or do you provide the Palestinians with peace first. But it is impossible to deny that Hamas also plays a part in Palestinian society other than just blowing up people. Many people see it as their defender, as Fatah’s authority has diminished.
Anyway, a lame doc without context. Very bad BBC.
I never trust the BBC, I work for a high profil construction/rail company and they did a documentary slating us, reason benig? our CEO at the time was a high profile Conservative figure, what could Labour do to discredit hmmm.
The documentary focused on several aspects
- A cleaning lady who was always paid 45 days after she did a job, she signed upto a contract on 60 day terms, stupid bint.
- A school that had asbestos coming out of the roof still had unfinished buildings. The school was in the middle of an asbestos removal program, had buildings under construction DURING SUMMER HOLIDAYS, contract was finished on time, school publicly apologised to us stating that the BC had distorted what they told it, missed out all the good points and basically made it all up, net result was the school making a formal complain against the BBC
- A rail crash, where they stated it was poorly maintined rail points, in reality the points had been perfectly maintained however there was a design flaw that was promptly fixed, design of the point was not something we would be involved in.
- Late payment of suppliers, all of my suppliers where paid on time if not earlier.
All in all it was complete bullcrap formed by the BBC, ever since this I have not trusted the BBC as a source of credible non biased information which a public broadcasting company should be.
Panorama is pretty bad at taking a one sided view of things, most likely because the researchers will be given a view point and told to back it up, their episode on the iraq war was a fantastic propagana story.
Oli- I’m afraid the title ‘How to lose friends and alienate people’ has already been used by Toby Young.
I’d rather he just did a documentary solely exposing those fascist and melevolent Muslim Brotherhood creeps who organised the IslamExpo charade and weave their communalist bigot agenda in the weasel words of multiculturalism and human rights, thus shitting in the pool in which we all swim. Those sly scumbags and two faced hypocrites need all the investigation and scrutiny they can get.
The best part of the Interpal is all those green flags, showing the hoax the Palestinians really are.
Oli – Panorama is pretty bad at taking a one sided view of things, most likely because the researchers will be given a view point and told to back it up, their episode on the iraq war was a fantastic propagana story.
That is certainly what it seemed like here. Funny blog by the way.
Yeah basing a dislike of Panorama becuase they once slagged off your misunderstood fat cat privatiser bosses, is really funny and like totally justifies use of words like bint. Go Oli go.
Ha Oli – i can see plenty of reasons for slating a ‘rail’ company. not enough slating of rail companies done in my opinion – have you ever been on a train? oh everyone blames everyone else. who suffers> the customer. yeah we’re all out looking for someon to blame -just like rail companies look for someone else to blame!
p.s. if you got off that rubbish Blogger platform and on to wordpress you might find other ways to deal with spam.
“And nobody’s yet acknowledged that there is anything wrong with little kids being told that the best thing they can do is blow themselves up for Allah.”
can’t you read Old P or are you selective in which posts you choose to respond to>
Sunny you are of course right regarding the intractable way that Hamas has stitched itself into Palestinan society. I think that it is good that we inspect and discuss this while both branding them terrorist, a political party and leaders all at once.
I’m afriad to say that OP is right to point that John Ware never said “Hands up who wants to be a Mujahadin?” which detracts from Osama Saeed claim of “Ware’s [sicking] goading of young boys”.
For instance was the Times “goading” UK Muslims by commissioning a survey of opinons?
I simply believe that John Ware turned over a stone and showed some ugly things underneath. No one is suprised and no one really expected to see any different. But that doesn’t mean that John was wrong or evil to have done so. It is just what investigative journalism is all about.
As for “bad BBC” and doing “their reputation for bias no good”, well their remit for diversity translates into them occasionally airing programmes like this.
It will be very interesting to see how this pans out, as Interpal have brought the lawyers out against Paranoma. This will result in yet more light being thrown onto the subject, which I believe is a good thing. I’m sure that Osama Saeed would disagree.
TFI
OP: That’s where you’re wrong
Well, OK, ignored and also scorned too; the two weapons of the HP inquistion…
Anyway, that’s Old Peculier, not me.
Is there really two of you or is this just a split-personality thing?
P.
I hate to break it to everybody, but those scenes are the realities across the Palestinian territories. You have to get a basic view of the situation going right back. A people are expelled from their land, a bunch of foregners take over and set up shop. The result is that those people will hate the occupier forever. I’ve spoken to many Palestinians who say it’s the same in government-run schools too (pre-Hamas). People have to wisen up to a simple reality: though some of those who claimed to speak for the Palestinian people went ahead with signing treaties and the like, they do not represent the whole feeling on the ground. And even those who fully accept the two-state solution say they do so out of pragmatism rather than believing this is justice. It’s messy out there, but it’s all compounded by us outsiders thinking it’s just a bunch of Arabs and Jews, who’ve been there for eons, fighting one another; it’s just not true.
A people are expelled from their land
It wasn’t “their” land in the first place. It belonged to the Ottomans for 200 years. Then it passed to, among others, the British. Jews bought this mainly barren land from absentee landlords at inflated prices. Jewish immigration brought increasing prosperity, which is why more Arabs moved in.
Most of the Arabs called “Palestinians” now living in the area that was once occupied by Jordan (the West Bank) and the area that was once occupied by Egypt (the Gaza strip) are descendants of very recent immigrants. There are lots of them because they have huge families, despite being “poor” (hardly poor compared to sub-Saharan Africa and very rich indeed for people who don’t work).
I’m afriad to say that OP is right …
Don’t be afraid. Shout it from the roof tops. It isn’t the first time and won’t be the last.
“It wasn’t “their†land in the first place.”
What a foolish thing to say. Its almost akin to saying that your house isn’t your own, but belongs to the crown. And had Hitler got his way it would then have been owned by him.
As if the Ottomans or then the British owned the land and the people.
“Don’t be afraid.”
No don’t be afraid. But do have the courage to tackle OP on her bigotry.
To leave some of her racist rantings littering these blogs is to have us all smeared.
“Anyway, that’s Old Peculier, not me.”
I respected you for your honesty – although pitied you for your bigotry.
To claim not to be Old Peculiar is beyond the pale. You didn’t have to. Your bigotry has come to be expected – so it wasn’t necessary.
Old Peculiar and Old Pickler link back to the Blogs in the Mary Jackson category.
It was silly and dishonest.
I feel betrayed.
Oh, lighten up. I was only joking. Everyone knows I’m Old Peculiar.
If I was going to disguise myself, would I pick a name that was so similar?
I’ve got about four aliases but everyone knows it’s me. My real name’s Katy. Bet you didn’t know that.
Its not me who needs to lighten up.
Being dishonest, bigotted and ignorant is not the way to conduct yourself.
But it makes you more interesting.
I have a feeling I want to get to know you a little better.
So Katy tell us about yourself. We can leave your affiliations to the end. Perhaps you could start with your childhood, parents, schools, mentors and ideologies.
I have a feeling you are an intelligent woman, probably with a humanities degree.
Please …
Where to start? Well if you read my Mary Jackson posts, you’ll get a good idea. Click on my name. Ignore the stuff about Islam, not that there’s tons of it on that blog. Look at my posts about grammar schools, jokes, being a tomboy, language, films, why I’m conservative but feminist, books, silly stuff etc.
Can’t cover it all here.
My main problem with Islam is that it stops people, particularly women, being themselves.
And yes, I have a humanities degree. And I think I’m intelligent, or at least quick witted.
Refresh. I’m sure I’ve mentioned before it’s not a good idea to feed the troll. Can you please stop it.
Hey, I’m not doing any harm here. There’s more to life than Islam, you know.
Did someone say something?
I’m sure I heard something …
TFI
Sunny,
But she needs help.