Stories round-up


by Rumbold
18th November, 2009 at 3:46 pm    

Lawyers give thanks for the new educational bill, as it creates opportunities for many more court cases.

Richard Bartholomew reviews Peter Oborne’s programme on the pro-Israel lobby and finds it flawed.

Richard again on the Sun’s initial response to the fake ‘Alan Sugar terror’ story.

South Asian babies in Britain are more at risk of death than other babies, and doctors do not know why.

The Telegraph is harrumping at the news that children are being taught not to stereotype by having to disprove such statements as “all white children are fascists” and “all Muslims are extremists” (the paper edition takes the former quote as its headline). This seems a sensible way of proceeding to me, as it doesn’t allow people to indulge in generalisations.

And finally, Unity and friends respond to fears that the Press Complaints Commission will now try and regulate blogging.


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  1. Reza — on 18th November, 2009 at 7:19 am  

    “South Asian babies in Britain are more at risk of death than other babies, and doctors do not know why.”

    Yes doctors do. From the Times report:-

    “…”It is possible that there are underlying conditions in the Asian population that are more prevalent.”
    Researchers suggested first cousin marriages often resulted in babies with health problems…

    …Sophia Sharif, a pregnancy outreach worker, said she was currently helping a Pakistani woman who is expecting her sixth child and suffers from depression and self-harms…”

    Cousin marriage. South Asian mothers having very huge numbers of children with little space between pregnancies.

    Isn't that 'multiculturalism'?

  2. Reza — on 18th November, 2009 at 7:29 am  

    Another contributory factor.

    “…The bone disorder rickets has now broken out in young Muslim children as babies are not getting enough calcium from mothers' breast milk.

    …

    A Department of Health spokesman said: “For ethnic groups there is an increased risk of vitamin D deficiency as people with dark and pigmented skin are less efficient at making vitamin D in their skin.

    “They need to spend longer outside to make similar amounts and those who wear concealing clothing are unlikely to make enough.

    “Studies have shown low vitamin D levels in Asian women in the UK – particularly among those who cover most of their skin for cultural reasons.”…”

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-2340

    Let's ask again, how many people has multiculturalism killed?

  3. Jai — on 18th November, 2009 at 8:00 am  

    Let's ask again, how many people has multiculturalism killed?

    Let's ask another question, since I think most of us would be in agreement that “Reza's” posts above are not necessarily motivated by a compassionate interest in the medical wellbeing of South Asians:

    The British medical profession has a disproportionate number of South Asian doctors; the increase originally started due to a severe shortage of qualified doctors in the NHS during the 1960s and early 70s, and Britain consequently proactively recruiting doctors from the Indian subcontinent. During the decades afterwards, a disproportionate number of medical students and (subsequently) practicing doctors in the UK have also consisted of British-born South Asians; this continues to be the case.

    Therefore, at a rough estimate, approximately how many British lives (regardless of ethnicity) have been saved by South Asian doctors in Britain during the past 40 years ?

  4. Ravi Naik — on 18th November, 2009 at 8:42 am  

    Let's ask again, how many people has multiculturalism killed?

    So, let me get this straight Reza, anything that affects a particular ethnic group, say the lack of vitamin D or diabetes, teenage pregnancies or binge drinking, you are counting as evidence against multiculturism.

    Oh, you must think, let me go all the way to stupid, they might realise how crazy multiculturism is.

  5. Fojee Punjabi — on 18th November, 2009 at 9:29 am  

    LOL @ Reza.

    You do make me laugh, you leg-end, you.

  6. Reza — on 18th November, 2009 at 10:01 am  

    “So, let me get this straight Reza, anything that affects a particular group of people, say the lack of vitamin D or diabetes, teenage pregnancies or binge drinking, you are counting as evidence against multiculturism.”

    Unmarried teenage pregnancy thrives in an environment of non-judgmental moral equivalence. The very same environment necessary for multiculturalism to exist.

    However, non-judgementalism has limits when it comes to the ‘non-ethnic minority’ group.

    Therefore, the 'culture' of binge drinking is openly considered to be socially harmful. It's inconceivable that there would be an objection from any quarter if government, schools, the health service or media criticized or condemned this anti-social and damaging practice.

    Binge drinkers, are quite rightly, stigmatized in our society. They are shown little tolerance and sympathy in hospitals, by the police, by employers, by anyone. (I’m talking about binge-drinkers here, not alcoholics).

    No one is ever criticized or called a ‘bigot’ for condemning binge drinkers.

    But non-judgementalism certainly does apply when you consider the harmful and anti-social cultural practices of ‘ethnic minority groups’.

    Condemn the culture of cousin marriage and you’ll have an outcry. Condemn the culture of early pregnancy and having child after child with little space between pregnancies and you’ll have an outcry. Mention that Islamic garb and the culture of purdah is causing health problems in Muslim women and their children and you’ll have an outcry.

    You’ll be called a bigot. A racist. A BNP supporter. A Nazi. A fascist.

    Can you ever imagine the government, schools or the health service condemning these antisocial practices? No.

    Because it seems that multiculturalism demands that we must tolerate the intolerable whenever ‘ethnic minorities’ are involved.

  7. Philip Hunt — on 18th November, 2009 at 10:07 am  

    The Telegraph is harrumping at the news that children are being taught not to stereotype by having to disprove such statements …

    I'd have them try to disprove “All people who stereotype are wrong”.

    Think about it.

  8. persephone — on 18th November, 2009 at 10:14 am  

    As to mortality rates in South Asians, there is also higher cultural pressure to go ahead with a pregnancy (even where medical issues are identified) because terminations are frowned upon, particularly in those of muslim origin.

    I wonder how much of a % differential that aspect makes to these figures. In conjunction with lack of full use of healthcare (due to low awareness & language) among this part of the population.

  9. Shamit Ghosh — on 18th November, 2009 at 10:17 am  

    “Unmarried teenage pregnancy thrives in an environment of non-judgmental moral equivalence.”

    Wow thats a major problem in South Asian community is it now –

  10. Refresh — on 18th November, 2009 at 10:46 am  

    No, Shamit, the argument runs that if there wasn't all this multiculturalism then we would be able to look down on these teenagers for falling pregnant. Its the asians again I am afraid.

    The man is utterly nuts. Even Fojee Punjab thinks so.

  11. Don — on 18th November, 2009 at 10:47 am  

    Reza,

    While you have a point response to criticism of, say, vitamin D defficiency exacerbated by heavy covering quite reasonably goes to motive. If the critic is involved in health care and has something constructive to contribute then I doubt if their comments will be widely attacked (there will always be a few) whereas if they have objections to covering per se their sudden concern for the health of people they have generally shown hostility to will be taken skeptically. We have seen examples of exactly this several times on this site. One OP in particular used this hypocritical device freely.

    Similarly with cousin marriage. While not as prevalent as it used to be, consanguineous marriage is still noticeably more common in our remaining aristocracy than in the general population. And specifically permitted by the church. And of course, individual cousin marriages carry a minimal risk, it is only when it becomes widely prevalent within a population that negative effects become measurable.

    I think your use of the word 'condemn' is telling. To criticise a practice from a position of informed concern is one thing, to condemn is another. Different responses are to be expected. Binge drinking is condemned because its ill-efects are immediate and apparent, impacting on the wider population in very visible ways. Wearing enveloping clothing is not in the same category.

    Education in the latter case would be helpful, mere condemnation would not.

  12. Jai — on 18th November, 2009 at 10:50 am  

    You’ll be called a…..A Nazi.

    That's a very good point. “Reza”, you have claimed that you distinctly remember multiple instances of being called a Nazi by other commenters on Pickled Politics, apparently starting as soon as you began commenting here.

    However, a search of Pickled Politics' archives reveals that there has been only one such incident, which involved a brief remark by Sunny and actually occurred several months after you started participating on this website.

    Please provide further URL links and specific quotes detailing the repeated instances of you being called a Nazi on this website (especially soon after you began commenting here), as per your emphatic assertions in this matter. (See here: http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/6558#co… ).

  13. Ravi Naik — on 18th November, 2009 at 11:01 am  

    But non-judgementalism certainly does apply when you consider the harmful and anti-social cultural practices of ‘ethnic minority groups’.

    Condemn the culture of cousin marriage and you’ll have an outcry. Condemn the culture of early pregnancy and having child after child with little space between pregnancies and you’ll have an outcry. Mention that Islamic garb and the culture of purdah is causing health problems in Muslim women and their children and you’ll have an outcry.

    There is only an outcry when people like yourself – bigots and racists – use ills that affect certain ethnic groups to vilify ethnic minorities and multiracial societies. Nobody here is cheering for the fact that Asians and blacks suffer from vitamin D deficiency because they cover up, or that several Asian women suffer depression – and yet, here you are, petty as ever, to use this one more excuse to bad mouth the fact that live in a multiracial society. Everything you have mentioned has already been talked extensively in this blog, and I have brought up Vitamin D deficiency on several occasion.

    Oh, and the reason nobody talks about bigotry when referring to binge drinking or teenage pregnancies is that you do not have a political party or people like yourself saying that such problems arise because there is something wrong with whites or Europeans.

  14. Reza — on 18th November, 2009 at 11:14 am  

    No, it's a problem in the 'white' and 'etnic-Caribbean' communities.

  15. damon — on 18th November, 2009 at 11:45 am  

    Someone called Reza phoned in to Nick Ferarri's radio programme on LBC (London) this morning. Reza, was that you? The guy (with a slight accent) was making some points not so different to some of those you make.

  16. MaidMarian — on 18th November, 2009 at 2:20 pm  

    Reza – The marriages you describe like sound to me the exact opposite of multiculturalism i.e. cultures specifically NOT mixing/integrating etc.

    Or am I missing something obvious?

    'No one is ever criticized or called a ‘bigot’ for condemning binge drinkers.'

    I take it that you don't read the Sun/Mail/Telegraph/Express/any UK mainstream newspsper on the subject?

    'Because it seems that multiculturalism demands that we must tolerate the intolerable whenever ‘ethnic minorities’ are involved.'

    Not to me it doesn't. But then Reza, I'm not you, so my views are less – right?

    You must have very sore shoulders.

  17. Reza — on 18th November, 2009 at 3:34 pm  

    No it wasn't me.

  18. douglas clark — on 18th November, 2009 at 3:43 pm  

    Rumbold,

    Lawyers give thanks for the new educational bill, as it creates opportunities for many more court cases.

    I assume you agree with me that the whole point of any legislation is to extend the law, for the benefit of lawyers?

  19. Rumbold — on 19th November, 2009 at 3:30 am  

    Reza:

    You are conflating two issues though. One is the as yet unclear cause (or causes) of higher mortality amongst South Asian babies, the other is the failure to robustly condemn practices like forced marriage. Both are problems, but one isn't the cause of the other (based on available information).

  20. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 1:00 am  

    Jai

    “The British medical profession has a disproportionate number of South Asian doctors; the increase originally started due to a severe shortage of qualified doctors in the NHS during the 1960s and early 70s…”

    Notwithstanding the immorality of pillaging poorer countries for medical staff whom they themselves have shortages of, I’ve never objected to immigration to fill gaps in the British job market where the required skills and qualifications do not exist within the existing population.

    Furthermore, the responsible thing for governments to do would have been to address the shortages with more training places and better pay, to ensure that more British people (whatever their ‘ethnic’ background) train as doctors.

    However, this point and the rest of your comment concerned immigration rather than multiculturalism, which was the subject of my comment.

  21. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 1:10 am  

    persephone

    “…terminations are frowned upon, particularly in those of muslim origin.”

    That is actually an interesting point.

    But a moral objection to abortion is not a minority, foreign cultural practice. Cousin marriage, pregnancy at a very young age, large numbers of children with little space between births, covering one’s body and spending most of ones time remaining indoors (as a result of the culture of purdah) are, on the whole, foreign cultural practices.

    Furthermore, if your suggestion contributed to the problems affecting South Asian women and children, then one would expect similar issues among Catholics, and I can find no evidence to suggest this is the case.

  22. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 1:56 am  

    Maidmarian

    “The marriages you describe like sound to me the exact opposite of multiculturalism i.e. cultures specifically NOT mixing/integrating etc…”

    If that is your definition of “multiculturalism” then I’m a multiculturalist.

    However, “multiculturalism” can be interpreted in different ways:-

    “The mistake of the bien pensants is to confuse multiculturalism with pluralism – they are not the same…

    …Pluralism is the acceptance of the values of others, but assumes certain ground rules.”*

    Here’s the Wiki definition of multiculturalism:-

    “…multiculturalists advocate extending equitable status to distinct ethnic and religious groups without promoting any specific ethnic, religious, and/or cultural community values as central.”

    When we extend equitable status to foreign cultures and values and fail to assume certain ground rules we create the monster we have in Britain today: ghettoes, poor integration, little cohesion and a very vague and confused idea of what it actually means to be British.

    The culture of cousin marriage, childbirth at a very early age, having very large numbers of children with little space between pregnancies and the practice of purdah are certainly not “central ground rules” among the British majority.

    *Hat-tip Alcuin @ Harry’s Place

  23. persephone — on 19th November, 2009 at 2:12 am  

    You can't find anything on Catholics and infant mortality? This is amazing that you, as a self proclaimed pharmacist, are unaware of all the biomedical journals & institutions that carry out such research?

    Reza, seek & you shall find (quite easily on the internet) unless you are unwilling to of course and your main focus is to attempt to only source links relating to ethnic minorities.

  24. persephone — on 19th November, 2009 at 2:13 am  

    You can't find anything on Catholics and infant mortality? This is amazing that you, as a self proclaimed pharmacist, are unaware of all the biomedical journals & institutions that carry out such research?

    Reza, seek & you shall find (quite easily on the internet) unless you are unwilling to of course and your main focus is to attempt to only source links relating to ethnic minorities.

  25. Rumbold — on 19th November, 2009 at 2:23 am  

    I certainly do Douglas.

    Reza:

    As others have said, it is not multiculturalism to blame but underlying factors. Presumbably these babies would still be dead had they been born in Ludhyana for than Luton. If repeated first cousin marriages play a part, and I probably do in some cases, then of course we should criticise them:

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/1697

    But I am not really sure how interested you are in doing that. You just like to snipe.

  26. coruja — on 19th November, 2009 at 2:39 am  

    @ Reza, every cloud has a silver lining eh? 'Urgh!' seems to be the only sensible response to your comments.

  27. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 3:07 am  

    Rumbold

    I’m not sniping.

    Of course I understand that many people in the South Asian community criticise these damaging cultural practices.

    The problem is that they’re not sufficiently nor confidently criticised from outside that community. i.e. by our mainly ‘white’ ruling elite, for fear of being accused of ‘racism’.

    We’ve seen this before. Surely you’re not denying this happens?

    In schools, children, from an early age are taught about the harms of teenage pregnancy, binge drinking and drugs. They are taught that racism is wrong. That racists are bad.

    We have no problem with the state educating, even indoctrinating, our children with these ‘core values’.

    However, when the Government's Forced Marriage Unit distributed posters to schools in Tower Hamlets, Leeds, Birmingham, Bradford, Luton, Leicester and Derby, some headteachers refused to display it for fear that it would offend parents, because forced marriage is associated with particular ethnic groups.

    The solutions are so simple. We need less ‘sensitivity’. Less ‘tolerance’. Less ‘non-judgementalism’. And much more confidence in promoting our ‘core values’.

    Let’s teach children from an early age that cousin marriage, international arranged marriage and forced marriage is wrong.

    And damn fear of ‘offending’ their parents. We don’t baulk at telling kids that racism is bad out of fear that their parents might be racists, do we?

    Let us tell little girls that they can pursue a career. That they don’t need to cover themselves from head-to-foot if they’d rather not. That they can take a full part in school life, including PE, swimming, if that’s what they want to do.

    And every child, white, black or brown, should be told that having babies at a very young age, continuing to have babies one after the other without a break, and especially, bringing children into the world when they do not have the financial means to care for them properly is damaging to them, to the children and to society at large.

    Teach them from an early age that these practices go against our nation’s ‘core values’.

  28. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 3:13 am  

    I actually thought that you made a good point but after having a very quick look but couldn't find anything specific to British Catholics to back it up.

    Do you have a link?

  29. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 3:17 am  

    And please quit sniping. I'm not a “self proclaimed pharmacist”. I studied it at Uni many years ago. I don't work anywhere near the pharmaceutical industry.

  30. Jai — on 19th November, 2009 at 3:23 am  

    Notwithstanding the immorality of pillaging poorer countries for medical staff whom they themselves have shortages of

    But that's not what actually happened, “Reza”. The NHS had a shortage of doctors. Therefore, the NHS proactively advertised in the Indian subcontinent due to the latter being members of the Commonwealth. Large numbers of doctors from that region decided to take up the offer and moved to Britain. Voluntarily.

    “Pillaging” countries is not even remotely the same as advertising vacancies in other countries and qualified doctors in those countries making an informed decision to respond to the offer and initiate what they perceive as a positive career move. It is also extremely patronising to the doctors themselves to imply that they were “stolen” from their countries and indeed had no freedom of action in relation to their career decision.

    Furthermore, the responsible thing for governments to do would have been to address the shortages with more training places and better pay, to ensure that more British people (whatever their ‘ethnic’ background) train as doctors.

    Gaining a place in medical school is about far more than the availability of “training places” or “better pay” — it is primarily about meeting the stringent academic requirements.

    The proportion of British students who remained at school until the age of 18, subsequently went to university, or indeed met the academic standards for admission was far lower during the 1960s and 1970s than it is now. Simply increasing the number of available places in medical schools would not have rectified the situation. Lowering the academic requirements would have been a grossly irresponsible course of action considering the intellectual prowess required in the medical profession and the fact that patients' lives are often literally at stake. And although there are other occupations which offer higher remuneration (investment banking and law being two obvious examples), doctors have always been very well paid in comparison with most occupations and certainly far in excess of the average person's salary — even more so during the 1960s and 70s. So, “better pay” is another moot point.

    However, this point and the rest of your comment concerned immigration rather than multiculturalism, which was the subject of my comment.

    Give it a shot anyway, especially as the story in the main article which triggered your subsequent posts wasn't about multiculturalism at all.

    Let me state the question again: At a rough estimate, approximately how many British lives (regardless of ethnicity) have been saved by South Asian doctors in Britain during the past 40 years ?

    Sourcing the relevant figures and performing the calculations to derive a ballpark figure should be a very easy matter for you if you are as familiar with the medical profession as you have claimed, considering your previous assertion that you can “pull rank” over other commenters about the matter. In fact, the bulk of the required input data is even available online — it's just a matter of subsequently “doing the math”.

    And we're still waiting for an answer to the following:

    “Reza”, you have claimed that you distinctly remember multiple instances of being called a Nazi by other commenters on Pickled Politics, apparently starting as soon as you began commenting here.

    However, a search of Pickled Politics' archives reveals that there has been only one such incident, which involved a brief remark by Sunny and actually occurred several months after you started participating on this website.

    Please provide further URL links and specific quotes detailing the repeated instances of you being called a Nazi on this website (especially soon after you began commenting here), as per your emphatic assertions in this matter.

    I'll make it even easier for you. Here are the full results of an online search for the relevant terms which should reveal exactly where, when, and by whom the alleged comments were made :

    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=site:www

    Please point us towards the specific incidents, as per your allegation.

  31. Jai — on 19th November, 2009 at 3:34 am  

    The culture of cousin marriage, childbirth at a very early age, having very large numbers of children with little space between pregnancies and the practice of purdah are certainly not “central ground rules” among the British majority.

    …..Of course I understand that many people in the South Asian community criticise these damaging cultural practices.

    These 'cultural practices' are not prevalent amongst the 'South Asian community' as a whole. Along with the grossly inaccurate implication that there is such a thing as a homogenous 'South Asian community', it is interesting (but certainly not surprising) that “Reza” is viewing the situation according to such caricatured stereotypes and is unable to differentiate between the various groups where the listed 'cultural practices' are prevalent and where they are not. And that's even before we factor in issues such as socioeconomic background and specific geographic ancestry.

  32. persephone — on 19th November, 2009 at 3:48 am  

    Your comment to introduce Catholics is based on what? Since you introduced this as your counter argument its incumbent upon you to present a coherent argument or evidence. Having studied pharmacy at Uni you would have used biomedical references.

    As to stopping 'sniping' – its a double edged sword to reveal details about yourself as it can backfire on you as undoubtedly you are now aware.

  33. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 3:51 am  

    I introduced forced marriage as an example of how multiculturalist ‘tolerance’ and ‘sensitivity’ damages people, however, I accept that this debate is about the causes of infant mortality..

    And we do know one of the causes of higher mortality amongst South Asian babies:-

    “It is estimated that at least 55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins and the tradition is also common among some other South Asian communities and in some Middle Eastern countries…

    … Indeed, Birmingham Primary Care Trust estimates that one in ten of all children born to first cousins in the city either dies in infancy or goes on to develop serious disability as a result of a recessive genetic disorder…”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight

  34. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 4:19 am  

    “Gaining a place in medical school is about far more than the availability of “training places” or “better pay” — it is primarily about meeting the stringent academic requirements.”

    That assumes that the standards of overseas qualifications will be equivalent to those in the UK. I know from my professional experience that academic qualifications overseas are not necessarily equivalent to those here.

    “Figures released by the GMC last month show that of the 3086 complaints lodged against doctors in 2006 where the doctor's country of training was known, nearly 40% referred to overseas trained doctors—roughly in proportion to their numbers in the NHS workforce—but the percentage of overseas trained doctors who were then referred to hearings was twice that among UK graduates (34% versus 16%).”

    http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/335/7615

    You get loads of bogus ‘Doctors’ and ‘Engineers’ in Iran, simply because of the status it gives them in their general life. That’s because doctors are addressed as “Agha Doktor” and engineer as, “Agha Mohandes”. I’ve come across many well-off Iranians who’ve bought those qualifications for that purpose alone.

    In my work, I have been called into interviews with job applicants who are here under the ‘Highly Skilled Migrant’s Programme’ because their interviewer has come to the conclusion that they have neither the skills nor qualifications they’re supposed to have.

    Indeed, in one case, I had to deal with an extremely irate woman who kept repeating “I am highly skilled migrant! You must give me job!” despite her having a very poor understanding of English. She was here to do a job where communication was THE most important requirement.

    I remarked to the interviewer (who incidentally was ethnic-Vietnamese, not some racist ‘white’ bigot) that I wondered what on earth possessed the British authorities in her country of origin to give this woman a visa to come under the HSMP. The interviewer replied, “Probably an envelope stuffed with cash”. I think he had it right.

    As for your petty, off-topic and personal crusade against me, I’m no longer willing to indulge you, so save yourself the bother.

  35. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 4:55 am  

    “Since you introduced this as your counter argument its incumbent upon you to present a coherent argument or evidence.”

    But it was you who introduced the subject of abortion with this pronouncement:

    “As to mortality rates in South Asians, there is also higher cultural pressure to go ahead with a pregnancy (even where medical issues are identified) because terminations are frowned upon, particularly in those of muslim origin.

    I wonder how much of a % differential that aspect makes to these figures. In conjunction with lack of full use of healthcare (due to low awareness & language) among this part of the population.”

    Without any evidence whatsoever to back up your view. As usual.

    It was left up to me to spend a couple of minutes trying to see if your comment had merit. I looked at infant mortality rates among British Catholics because I was genuinely interested whether your unsubstantiated opinion had any merit. But I couldn’t find any.

    Good god, Persephone, now you criticise me for not being able to find any evidence to support your own baseless pronouncements.

    You can be so petty at times.

  36. persephone — on 19th November, 2009 at 5:00 am  

    If you want to condemn first cousin marriages (because of that 'ugly' subject of genetics which I know you don't like talking about) then it follows we also condemn other people who marry or reproduce with known disorders/conditions that can be passed on such as HIV, Haemophilia, addictions, Bi polar, diabetes, heart conditions, cancer, sickle cell (predominately with mid-Africans) or Cystic fibrosis (most common amongst North Europeans and their descendants). The list is endless. A lot of people are also keeping awfully quiet about outrightly condemning these 'practices' too.

    There are conditions which are very prolific. Below is a list of the 10 most common genetic diseases & their frequency per 1000 births.(Though most diseases are caused by a combination of genes & environment. Even inherited diseases can be caused by more than one gene & influenced by environmental exposures):

    1.Familial combined hyperlipidemia – 5.0
    2.Familial hypercholesterolemia – 2.0
    3.Dominant otosclerosis – 1.0
    4.Adult polycystic kidney disease – 0.8
    5.Multiple exostoses – 0.5
    6.Huntington’s disease – 0.5
    7.Fragile X-syndrome – 0.5
    8.Neurofibromatosis – 0.4
    9.Cystic Fibrosis – 0.4
    10.Duchenne muscular dystrophy – 0.3
    Source: single gene Mendelian disorders in the UK, Genetic Interest Group.

    And you cannot just look at infants. Some conditions manifest later in life. 5.5% of the population will have developed a genetic condition by age 25. Later in life, this figure rises to approx 60% with conditions in which genetics plays some role.

    At that level genetic conditions are a prolific problem in the wider UK population. Perhaps due to the effects of being a small island population….

  37. Jai — on 19th November, 2009 at 5:09 am  

    And we do know one of the causes of higher mortality amongst South Asian babies:-

    “It is estimated that at least 55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins

    That report specifically and repeatedly emphasises “British Pakistanis” as being the primary group where this problem occurs.

    and the tradition is also common among some other South Asian communities

    Do you know exactly which other South Asian communities this tradition is also common among, “Reza” ?

    Let me rephrase that: Your exact words were “we do know one of the causes of higher mortality amongst South Asian babies”.

    Therefore, do you believe that first-cousin marriages are a common tradition amongst, for example, (Indian) Punjabis and Gujaratis in the UK, considering that those two groups constitute the majority of the Indian population in this country, and that this practice is therefore one of the causes of higher mortality amongst UK-born babies in those groups ?

  38. Jai — on 19th November, 2009 at 5:11 am  

    That assumes that the standards of overseas qualifications will be equivalent to those in the UK. I know from my professional experience that academic qualifications overseas are not necessarily equivalent to those here.

    Your professional experience in Medicine ? Particularly where doctors trained in the Indian subcontinent are concerned ?

    “Reza”, we're not interested in alleged anecdotal stories about 'bogus doctors' in Iran. We're also not interested in alleged anecdotal stories about your alleged interviews with candidates associated with the HSMP. None of it has any bearing on South Asians in the medical profession in Britain. And, incidentally, that GMC article you linked to doesn't specifically mention South Asians either.

    As for your petty, off-topic and personal crusade against me, I’m no longer willing to indulge you, so save yourself the bother.

    As opposed to your petty, off-topic, and personal crusade against non-white British citizens ?

    I repeat:

    You have claimed that commenters have called you a Nazi on multiple occasions, with these alleged incidents starting as soon as you began participating on this website. That has been proven to be a lie.

    You have also previously claimed that several commenters, myself included, have made offensive and insulting remarks about your parents. That has also been proven to be a lie.

    There's a distinct pattern emerging, don't you agree ?

    You have explicitly claimed that you remember repeated incidents along these lines occuring during the course of your participation on this website. Which leaves us with two explanations:

    1. You were deliberately lying when making these fabricated allegations.
    2. You genuinely do “remember” these incidents, even though in reality they never happened. This implies that you are suffering from a psychotic disorder and therefore require urgent medical intervention.

    So which one is it ?

  39. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 5:31 am  

    Okay Jai.

    Just consider my comments rephrased as “British Pakistanis and some sections of the South Asian, Middle Eastern, North and Sub-Saharan African communities.”

    Now write to the BBC, where I repeatedly got the moniker “South Asian” from the various sources I quoted and demand that they do the same.

    Good god man. Get a grip!

    It doesn’t change any of the points I’m making regarding misguided notions of cultural sensitivity and non-judgementalism endemic within the awful ideology of multiculturalism.

  40. persephone — on 19th November, 2009 at 5:31 am  

    My comment about asians carrying through a full term pregnancy, despite medical issues, due to taboos was based on insight and awareness of this aspect. Its was also closely on topic. Plus I tell the truth.

    You introduced Catholics but then backed away quickly from providing evidence or any insight.

    If you need proof of my insight, I found these Dept of Health statistics as to abortions by ethnicity for 2005:

    White British 103,877
    White Irish 943
    White – Any other White background 9,432
    Mixed – White and Black Caribbean 1,523
    Mixed – White and Black African 618
    Mixed – White and Asian 436
    Mixed – Any Other 1,208
    Asian or Asian British – Indian 5,126
    Asian or Asian British – Pakistani 2,695
    Asian or Asian British – Bangladeshi 1,211
    Asian – Any other Asian background 3,273
    Black or Black British – Caribbean 5,595
    Black or Black British – African 11,993
    Black or Black British – Any other 1,792
    Chinese 2,176
    Any other ethnic group 1,888
    Not known/not stated 32,630

    As you can see (and as I mentioned because of insight) the lower rates of abortions are with Pakistanis & Bangladeshis. Reza, you really should not need such evidence, as you should have this insight yourself being Iranian…or have you forgotten?

  41. persephone — on 19th November, 2009 at 5:52 am  

    “As for your petty, off-topic and personal crusade“

    Reza, its interesting your choice of language: “crusade” as is that of your supporter Fojee Punjabi's use of the word “slay”. Very medieval, olde worlde knights of yore language I must say.

    Sorry Rumbold if this was off topic

  42. persephone — on 19th November, 2009 at 6:06 am  

    Reza, this table gives further insight as to non residents using NHS for abortions – see figures for N Ireland & Irish Republic.

    Dept of Health Legal abortions, non residents: by country of residence, 2005

    all ages percentages

    All non-residents 7,937 100%

    Country of Residence 1

    United Kingdom
    Northern Ireland 1,164 14.7
    Scotland 310 3.9
    Isle of Man 161 2.0
    Jersey 15 0.2
    Guernsey 9 0.1

    European Countries

    Irish Republic 5,585 70.4
    France 38 0.5
    Cyprus 7 0.1
    Germany 19 0.2
    Gibralta 8 0.1
    Greece 8 0.1
    Italy 232 2.9
    Malta 54 0.7
    Netherlands 5 0.1
    Norway 12 0.2
    Portugal 19 0.2
    Spain 27 0.3
    Switzerland 7 0.1
    Poland 11 0.1
    Other 26 0.4

    In addition, there is a Dutch Group called Women on Waves which is a boat that travels around the coast of Ireland (plus target Spain & Portugal but not South Asian) for women to have medical abortions & advice (upon the boat)…

  43. Jai — on 19th November, 2009 at 6:46 am  

    Now write to the BBC, where I repeatedly got the moniker “South Asian” from the various sources I quoted and demand that they do the same.

    The single BBC source you quoted used the moniker “South Asian” only once, not “repeatedly” as you claim.

    The article itself predominantly focused on British Pakistanis, used this moniker repeatedly, and did not conflate it with “South Asian”. In fact, it explicitly differentiated between the two, as they are not automatically mutually interchangeable terms.

    Good god man. Get a grip!

    You certainly should. You've opportunistically seized on a reference to an increased risk of infant mortality in South Asian babies in the main article as a vehicle to promote yet more irrelevant, off-topic allegations about “multiculturalism” and whatnot., even though, as Rumbold correctly mentioned earlier, the two are not necessarily linked at all, and indeed despite the fact that doctors themselves are not sure of the reasons for the aforementioned increased infant mortality.

    And your claims about people on this website repeatedly calling you a Nazi or making offensive remarks about your parents are very serious allegations indeed. Since you are unable to provide proof to back up your accusations, you should still provide an explanation about what triggered those actions on your part: Either you were deliberately lying, or you “remember” events that never actually occurred.

    Finally, since you obviously know how to use the internet to locate information about non-white British doctors as per your selective misquotation of that GMC article in an attempt to denigrate the qualifications and professional aptitude of South Asian doctors in the UK…..

    For the third time: At a rough estimate, approximately how many British lives (regardless of ethnicity) have been saved by South Asian doctors in Britain during the past 40 years ?

  44. Sofia — on 19th November, 2009 at 6:53 am  

    There are similarities in this discussion and any discussion around health inequalities.

    The sickle cell example:
    “Nearly one-quarter of primary school pupils in England are from ethnic groups who are at higher risk of carrying genes associated with SCD, especially those of African, Caribbean, Indian, Mediterranean, Middle Eastern and Eastern European descent (Department for Education and Skills [DfES], 2006)” Dyson et al 2008
    Dyson goes on to talk about institutional racism and access to adequate educational support which further exacerbates the chronic condition. I think this argument can be applied to a variety of areas, including adequate care in hospital, awareness of conditions that are prevalent to particular communities and access to information and treatment.

    type 2 diabetes is being labelled a global epidemic and yet for some reason, the urgency of the situation is not being filtered down to the ordinary aunti/uncle ji on the street. So if you want to talk higher levels of death in a country where we all have equal access to the nhs at primary care level, then we need to start talking about institutional racism not multiculturalism. The latter once again lays blame at the individual.

  45. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 6:54 am  

    Your table shows overall numbers and not rates. However, off the top of my head it would appear that the “White” prefixed groups in your table are proportionally around twice as likely to have abortions as the “Asian” prefixed groups.

    So it seems that your point did have some merit, albeit indirectly.

    This does not mean however, that factors such as cousin marriage, multiple pregnancies with little space between them and low vitamin D caused by the custom of purdah do not also contribute to high infant mortality rates as we can see from some of the links I’ve provided.

    Infant mortality rates among Catholics (who are probably also less likely to terminate pregnancy) would throw more light on whether lower abortion rates lead to higher infant mortality, but as I said before, there don’t seem to be any relevant statistics out there.

    Nevertheless, give your self a pat on the head Persephone.

    Finally, I don’t know why you assume that I should know any of this coming from an Iranian background (pretend of course).

  46. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 6:56 am  

    “As opposed to your petty, off-topic, and personal crusade against non-white British citizens ?”

    My “crusade” is against multiculturalism, not people.

  47. Reza — on 19th November, 2009 at 7:27 am  

    Damn you're smart!

    Fojee and I work opposite each other for a secret BNP/Zionist/Nazi/White supremacist organisation with a mission (another good word) to spread disharmony within Britain’s harmonious, rich and diverse ethnic communities.

    Fojee certainly takes his work seriously, visiting tanning salons and dying black the blonde hair on his very hairy chin.

    I on the other hand get into character by eating pistachios and watermelon seeds in the office all-day and ruffling through a dog-eared Persian-English dictionary.

    But I can’t fool you Persie!

    You know all about Iran what with all your relatives there.

    What can I say? The money’s good. And Fojee’s a right laugh, what with all his chin scratching.

    But you should see how the hair-dye’s making his fingernails go black!

  48. Sofia — on 19th November, 2009 at 7:28 am  

    http://jpubhealth.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/pdf_ex
    'Inappropriate use of the term 'Asian' an obstacle to ethnicity and health research.
    From 1991 and guess what..we've moved to a generic 'South Asian'…maybe in another 20 years we'll begin understanding that we want to lump ppl together because it's convenient, but it won't make the clinical case for robust data.

  49. Ravi Naik — on 19th November, 2009 at 7:50 am  

    Fojee and I work opposite each other for a secret BNP/Zionist/Nazi/White supremacist organisation with a mission (another good word) to spread disharmony within Britain’s harmonious, rich and diverse ethnic communities.

    Actually, this story is less ridiculous and more believable than the one you told us. You know, the one which you are Iranian, married to an Englishwoman, have mixed-raced children, and awfully worried about the plight of the indigenous against … people like yourself.

    Do you believe you are more entitled to live in this country than anyone of us here?

  50. Jai — on 19th November, 2009 at 9:51 am  

    My “crusade” is against multiculturalism, not people.

    Notwithstanding the following statement that you recently blurted out…..

    So that’s your answer isn’t it? Race replacement. Only when the indigenous British become a minority can your bitter, revenge-motivated Utopia come to pass. Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from. For all the sins of ‘whitey’. You’ll get even.

    http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/6505#co

    …..I have no doubt that you regard large numbers of South Asian doctors living in the UK (both British-born and directly from the subcontinent) as being insufficiently “culturally British” according to your narrow, distorted definition of the concept.

    Therefore, in response to the following quote by you at the start of this thread…..

    Let's ask again, how many people has multiculturalism killed?

    For the fourth time: At a rough estimate, approximately how many British lives (regardless of ethnicity) have been saved by South Asian doctors in Britain during the past 40 years ?

    And we’re still awaiting your answer to the simple, straightforward question of whether you were deliberately lying when you accused other commenters of repeatedly calling you a Nazi along with making offensive remarks about your parents, or whether you genuinely “remember” these alleged incidents despite the fact that they never actually happened.

  51. MaidMarian — on 19th November, 2009 at 12:11 pm  

    Reza – Your definition of multiculturalism is from wikipedia? There is no conflict inherent between multiculturalism and integration. You seem an articulate chap, surely you can understand that people can conceive things from a viewpoint different to your dogma and a priori moral condemnation?

    Oh, and you will find that Indian doctors have for many years had a very cushy deal with the NHS that has encouraged a sense of entitlement that New Labour was sopt on to puncture. That the NHS has taken too many Indian doctors has allowed Indian medical schools to carry on overproducing to the insane extent that they do. That you think that the continent was 'pillaged' shows that you probably took that of wikipedia too.

    Tell me Reza – what do you think about the procedures of Article 14 and the GSMPO? It is on wiki if you find that a bit tough. Please, I really want to hear about your experience of equivalence and postgraduate medical training. Let's start with Iran, given that is the country you mention. What are Iranian standards like and which country do they base their curricula on?

  52. Ravi Naik — on 19th November, 2009 at 12:38 pm  
  53. MaidMarian — on 19th November, 2009 at 1:11 pm  

    Ravi Naik – I see, makes sense now.

    The 'theft of nurses' is, of course, nothing other than talkboard rhetoric, but I suppose to those of a certain dogma, that is all that is necessary. One can only hazard a guess what those usual suspects would make of the many charitable between doctors and the developing world.

    Funny thing is that there is a cast iron argument for making accessing NHS training more difficult for overseas doctors – it just isn't one that can be used to score political points on multiculturalism. Dogma eh?

  54. persephone — on 19th November, 2009 at 4:14 pm  

    Let me make the data easy for you.

    Take the picture of non residents (the second set of data) who have an abortion, those from Ireland have the most at 85.1% – substantially more than any other country. The breakdown:

    All non-residents having abortions nos: 7,937 = 100%
    By country of residence:
    Northern Ireland Nos: 1,164 = 14.7%
    Irish Republic Nos: 5,585 = 70.4%

    Let us assume that a large portion of those non residents from Ireland are Catholics (unless you see reasons why not) in addition to those residents who may be white/brown/black catholic from the 1st set of data. Plus the data is just the NHS figures and not others eg independent orgns operating around Ireland.

    I await your response to back your assertions.

    “ I don’t know why you assume that I should know any of this coming from an Iranian background”

    Where does one start? You have made many faux pas w/t realising it.

  55. Ravi Naik — on 20th November, 2009 at 2:34 am  

    Reza's next rant…

    “Here is a serious question… how many football cheats has multiculturalism unleashed upon us? Sunny is to blame for all of this with his left-wing propaganda, which is so permissive to strange non-indigenous customs, like cheating and using their hands. And mind you, I am not against non-white footballers. My crusade is against multiracial teams representing indigenous people. As a (pretend) Iranian, I want to live in a country where my (pretend) mixed children are barred from representing my adopted country, because it would not be fair to the indigenous. You are jealous and you want to destroy this indigenous sport with multiculturalism because non-whites coming from shithole countries have absolutely no achievements when it comes to football. Not like this advanced country. And you want to get even for all the sins of 1966.”

  56. Rumbold — on 20th November, 2009 at 9:48 am  

    Heh Ravi. Shifty-looking darkies like Kolo Toure keep honest Brits like Joey Barton from the pitch. PCGM.

  57. persephone — on 20th November, 2009 at 10:54 am  

    “ My “crusade” is against multiculturalism, not people. “

    This tactic is nothing new. Others have used language to dehumanise an issue relating to people. By dehumanising and injecting almost a religious military fervour to convince others to commit atrocities.

    Like some early Crusaders who sincerely believed their violence toward the Muslims was justified by God's will. However, many Crusaders were expressing hatred and bigotry toward an unfamiliar religion and culture, using religious doctrine as an excuse to seize territory and riches. For e.g. getting off at Constantinople, the crusaders killed anybody that didn't look like a European Christian, including turbaned Byzantine Christians, Jews, and innocent Arab merchants.

    Obviously they failed the Nick Griffin test of not 'looking' enough like an indigenous.

    The word crusade is used to make murder, bigotry & hatred sound noble. Allunder the guise of being against multiculturalism not certain people.

  58. marvin — on 20th November, 2009 at 11:14 am  

    Persephone, it's entirely logical that you can be against the idea of multiculturalism and still be ethical towards people. And it's entirely logical to be for multiculturalism and unethical towards people. You could defend FGM in this country, for example, under the notion that it's somebody else's culture so it's not our place to interfere. That kind of brainless, moral relativist, multiculturalism I am against…

    But I understand it's in the context of Reza, so maybe I should just butt out….

  59. persephone — on 20th November, 2009 at 3:34 pm  

    Marvin

    FGM is abuse pure and simple. Putting it under the catch all umbrella of multiculturalism politicises it and I can see the logic in it being done to be fed into a bigger propaganda machine. My view is to treat it as a crime.

    Now, 'multi-culture'.

    I can see the far right wanting to exert their own brand of culture – from a mixed bag of ancestry – in other words a multi-culture of sorts that is welded together and sold as 'one' british culture. Based on the overall genetic perspective of the British, the Celts, Belgians, Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Vikings and Normans were all immigrant minorities compared with the Basque pioneers, who first ventured into the empty British land after the Ice Age. Immigration is in the blood.

    I say we are all multi-cultural. No one is a 'pure' race.

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