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  • Technorati: graph / links

    You can only be a moderate Muslim if…


    by Sunny on 14th November, 2009 at 11:07 PM    

    A reader sends in this article by Melanie Phillips in the Jewish Chronicle:

    Among the many jibes Ed Husain threw my way when I criticised Bunglawala was that I supposedly deemed any Muslim who did not support Israeli Likud policy to be an Islamist.

    Interestingly, this absurd caricature was not dissimilar to a charge once made to my face by the Hamas-promoting Dr Azzam Tamimi, who declared disgustedly that I would only consider a Muslim to be a moderate if he supported Israel.

    While Ed Husain was wrong, for once Tamimi was spot on. I do indeed think that the issue that defines true Muslim moderation is the absence of hostility towards Israel and, by extension, the Jewish people.

    This is so laughable that I shouldn’t even have to state why that is. But what’s interesting is that MP now defines Israel so closely with ‘the Jewish people’ - hereby ignoring all the non-Jews who live there. That is basically a statement saying if you ever criticise Israel then by extension you’re criticising all Jews and by extension you are anti-semitic.

    By the same extension, why can’t Muslims say that any criticism of Middle Eastern countries is criticism of all Muslims and also thereby racist? I should also send a memo to the Indian PM. From now on any criticism of the state of India is an explicit slur against all Hindus and by extension racist. Since India is also home to a majority of Sikhs, it would be amusing to watch Hindus and Sikhs accuse each other of racism if either criticises India.

    Or we could just assume M Phillips is chatting out of her arse again. Incidentally, she is also saying that Ed Husain of the Quilliam Foundation, because he does not support Israel in everything, is therefore an extremist Muslim. She’s off her trolley.


         
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    1. Boyo — on 14th November, 2009 at 2:16 PM  

      I think you and Mel should try for a baby Sunny. Maybe Bob Pitt and David T could be godparents!

    2. David O'Keefe — on 14th November, 2009 at 2:17 PM  

      Oh dear, MP believes that she has hit on a winning argument aligning Husain with Tammini, an association fallacy and in doing so inadvertandtly shoots herself in the foot. Not that she appears to notice or mind.

      So criticising Israel is anti-semitism in her eyes that is really helpful and unhelpful.

      Now sit back and wait for the I/P obsessives to turn up.

    3. Fojee Punjabi — on 14th November, 2009 at 2:54 PM  

      She’s off her trolley.

      Sunny:

      Ever heard of the phrase “the pot calling the kettle black”, Sir?

      'Cos, like… well… erm… *ahem*

    4. Ben — on 14th November, 2009 at 3:57 PM  

      Once again Sunny brings discredit upon himself. He misrepresents the comments of someone he dislikes and accuses them of holding opinions and promoting ideas that they have not expressed.

      Philips said she is looking for Moslems to have “… absence of hostility towards Israel and, by extension, the Jewish people…” She did not demand that anybody abstain from criticism of Israel. And she definitely did not claim that “if you ever criticise Israel then by extension you’re criticising all Jews and by extension you are anti-semitic.” She merely noted that many Moslems are hostile to Israel and also to the Jewish people, a fact that is irrefutable..

      But most revealing is Sunny's comment that Philips “defines Israel so closely with ‘the Jewish people’ – hereby ignoring all the non-Jews who live there..”. Should we cease defining Britain with the Anglo-Saxon, Welsh, Scots and Irish peoples who mostly make up that nation, merely because there are people of other national origins living in the country? If Sunny so believes, he should say it outright, instead of using Israel as a stalking horse.

    5. DocMartyn — on 14th November, 2009 at 4:11 PM  

      “This is so laughable that I shouldn’t even have to state why that is”

      perhaps you should, do you for instance hold the view that the Jews are a Middle Eastern people or do you believe that the Jews in Israel are European colonists.

      Which position do you take Sunny; the former or the latter?

    6. qidniz — on 14th November, 2009 at 5:01 PM  

      Ah yes, as usual Sandeep opens his mouth only to change feet.

      This is why I love this blog. Comedy gold.

    7. Sunny H — on 14th November, 2009 at 5:55 PM  

      Now sit back and wait for the I/P obsessives to turn up.

      You got your wish…. I wish our I/P obsessive were a bit intelligent though. Instead we get monkeys who're only capable of howling.

      She did not demand that anybody abstain from criticism of Israel.

      Of course not, but criticism of Israel just happens to make you anti-semitic in her eyes.

      Should we cease defining Britain with the Anglo-Saxon, Welsh, Scots and Irish peoples

      As I said - it would be nice to get more intelligent trolls. In case your brain stopped functioning, allow me to inform you: anyone who is black, white, Christian, Muslim or atheist can be British. It is a national identity not a religious identity.

      Which position do you take Sunny; the former or the latter?

      Mostly the former. There are some European Jews there too, but then I'm not against immigration.

    8. Andrew — on 14th November, 2009 at 7:30 PM  

      The whole lot of them don't like criticism! As far as I can see the whole thing started when Douglas Murray attacked Ed on CiF. Ed responded, not by attacking Douglas directly, but by attacking Melanie. She then got her retaliation in - and it goes on from there. Martin Bright, in the Jewish Chronicle, doesn't seem to know what to make of it all:

      http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/21913/melanie...

      On a related subject, what does everyone make of Ed and the Quilliam Foundation suing Craig Murray for libel, mainly on the apparently trivial issue of the filing of QF's accounts? There are several posts and you have to work back:

      http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

      “Murray To Quilliam: Put Up Or Shut Up”, “We are instructed by our clients to prosecute an action against you for libel.”, “Quilliam Foundation Lie and Cheat”, “All Blogger Alert: Quilliam Foundation Lawyers Threaten Libel Action Against This Blog”, “Public Money Goes AWOL”.

    9. charliecoyle — on 14th November, 2009 at 11:54 PM  

      I think your off your trolley!

    10. Fojee Punjabi — on 15th November, 2009 at 1:26 AM  

      You got your wish…. I wish our I/P obsessive were a bit intelligent though. Instead we get monkeys who're only capable of howling.

      LOL Oh the irony of it all!

      You are entertaining, Hundal, you really are.

    11. Roger — on 15th November, 2009 at 3:00 AM  

      There are different uses of words in connexion with Israel and many peope- deliberately or not- do not make it plain how they are using them. Someone may “support” Israel as in recognising that Israel exists and that any future settlement in the Middle East will have to accept that fact as a basis for peace, or they may “support” Israel as in giving unquestioning support to every policy of the Israeli government or even the expansionist settlers. Equally, they may “oppose” Israel by saying that particular policies of the Israeli government or actions by Israelis are foolish or wicked or by claiming that Israel should not exist and should be wiped off the map. Unless people make it unequivocally plain which meaning they intend- indeed, their basic attitude to Israel- when they discuss Israel they will find that their opponents claim- and may even believe- that they are expressing the extreme position. Even if people do make their attitudes plain, their opponents will often claim that they are lying and actually hold extreme attitudes.

    12. Roger — on 15th November, 2009 at 3:02 AM  

      There are different uses of words in connexion with Israel and many peope- deliberately or not- do not make it plain how they are using them. Someone may “support” Israel as in recognising that Israel exists and that any future settlement in the Middle East will have to accept that fact as a basis for peace, or they may “support” Israel as in giving unquestioning support to every policy of the Israeli government or even the expansionist settlers. Equally, they may “oppose” Israel by saying that particular policies of the Israeli government or actions by Israelis are foolish or wicked or by claiming that Israel should not exist and should be wiped off the map. Unless people make it unequivocally plain which meaning they intend- indeed, their basic attitude to Israel- when they discuss Israel they will find that their opponents claim- and may even believe- that they are expressing the extreme position. Even if people do make their attitudes plain, their opponents will often claim that they are lying and actually hold extreme attitudes.

    13. Forlornehope — on 15th November, 2009 at 3:25 AM  

      What if MP were a secret agent of the Iranian regime? Her ultra-Zionist position is guaranteed to lead to the destruction of Israel over the long term. It has much in common with the history of the Outremer of the Crusaders. Her mind numbingly stupid writings on climate change only make sense as part of a conspiracy, Iranian, Saudi or Russian, to keep the west hooked on oil to its ultimate defeat. She is clearly either really stupid or really clever. It seems unlikely but you never can tell!

    14. Ravi Naik — on 15th November, 2009 at 6:02 AM  

      Melanie Philips is obviously writing in bad faith when she purposely fails to define what “hostility towards Israel” and “support of Israel” mean. Because it could mean, support for the existence of the State of Israel or support for Likud's policies. She doesn't define it, because then she would have to admit that Ed Hussain is right.

      Does she think that being against the bombing of Gaza or Lebanon, or against the settlements in West Bank , being against Israel and therefore you are an Islamist?

      I find it hilarious that an extremist like MP attempts to create a litmus test to find moderate people, and this post indeed deserves to be under the “Humor” category.
      MP has absolutely no credibility among the reality-based people.

    15. marvin — on 15th November, 2009 at 6:02 AM  

      Melanie is wrong, many if not most lefties are hostile to Israel. It's trendy to hate Israel. Therefore her charge that any Muslim who hates Israel is antisemitic is simply wrong. It also typecasts all Muslims as religious fools. Whereas Muslims hostile to Israel may just be overdosing on Robert Fisk in the Independent or Seamus Milne in the Guardian….

    16. Ravi Naik — on 15th November, 2009 at 6:20 AM  

      It's trendy to hate Israel.

      Of course, we saw this mindset being applied when Bush was president - where criticising the president's policies was considered an act of treason against the US and anti-patriotic. The same people now believe it should be the opposite.

    17. Sunny H — on 15th November, 2009 at 1:59 PM  

      funny, Marvin, you spend so much time telling us why its ok to hate a religion, and so distinguish that from people - and now you, like MP are confusing race with a country.

    18. Ben — on 15th November, 2009 at 3:32 PM  

      “…monkey who is only capable of howling …troll….in case your brain stopped functioning…”

      I seem to have hit a sensitive spot. No offence intended.

      “Of course not, but criticism of Israel just happens to make you anti-semitic in her eyes…”

      Nonsense. Philips has herself criticized Israel on occasion, and has explicitly explained many times that criticism of Israel in itself is not anti-semitic, when it is applied judiciously.

      “anyone who is black, white, Christian, Muslim or atheist can be British. It is a national identity not a religious identity…”

      Did you omit Jews from your list deliberately? Or was it a Freudian slip?

      As I asked previously, should we stop identifying Britain with the Anglo-Saxon, Welsh, Scots and Irish peoples who mostly make up that nation merely because there are people of other national origins living in the country?

    19. Kulvinder — on 15th November, 2009 at 5:56 PM  

      As I asked previously, should we stop identifying Britain with the Anglo-Saxon, Welsh, Scots and Irish

      I'm not sure, but im curious!

      Go and ask what percentage of scots 'feel' british; then ask the irish.

    20. Salman — on 15th November, 2009 at 7:01 PM  

      “But what’s interesting is that MP now defines Israel so closely with ‘the Jewish people’ – hereby ignoring all the non-Jews who live there.”

      - Not only that, in viewing Israel as the sole focus of Jewish identity, it excludes the opinions of all the anti-Zionist Jews, wherever they happen to live. Forcing a people to identify with a state and the policies of that state, now that's racism.

    21. Ben — on 15th November, 2009 at 9:00 PM  

      …”Forcing a people to identify with a state and the policies of that state, now that's racism….”

      There is no forcing of anyone to identify with anyone - there is just debate and advocacy .

      “…excludes the opinions of all the anti-Zionist Jews..”

      Nobody is excluding anyone's opinions - there is disagreement, but all can express their views freely.

      These accusations of coercion and exclusion are bizarre and false.

      “…Go and ask what percentage of scots 'feel' british; then ask the irish…”

      In Northern Ireland and Scotland the separatists are a minority, as elections have shown again and again for more than 150 years.

    22. Kulvinder — on 15th November, 2009 at 11:23 PM  

      In Northern Ireland and Scotland the separatists are a minority, as elections have shown again and again for more than 150 years.

      In scotland the sepratists are the government

      As for Northern Ireland

    23. Sunny H — on 16th November, 2009 at 1:01 AM  

      Nonsense. Philips has herself criticized Israel on occasion, and has explicitly explained many times that criticism of Israel in itself is not anti-semitic, when it is applied judiciously

      ooooh! and please do let me know when MP has ever accepted a criticism of Israel made by, say, a Muslim, because it was made “judiciously”. Very interested.

      Also, her “criticisms” are mostly of the view that the country isn't hard enough on the Palestinians. That isn't the kind of “criticism” we're talking about really is it?

      Did you omit Jews from your list deliberately? Or was it a Freudian slip?

      Yes! Of course I did! And the Hindus and Sikhs! I hate them too! I'm racist against all these religious groups. Didn't I tell you?

      merely because there are people of other national origins living in the country?

      That's an amusing Freudian slip. I'm born in the UK. What's my national origin?

    24. Salman — on 16th November, 2009 at 8:55 AM  

      “There is no forcing of anyone to identify with anyone - there is just debate and advocacy.”

      - This is why my friend and his family have had their names published on a list of 'self-hating Jews' for supporting a Palestinian charity? That's an extreme example, but there is an element amongst zionists that is very hostile towards Jews who criticise Israel, just as there are elements amongst political Islam that see Muslims who do not share their worldview as not being real Muslims. Why should we allow the extremists to set the agenda of identity?

    25. Ben — on 16th November, 2009 at 4:48 PM  

      “…when has MP ever accepted a criticism of Israel made by, say, a Muslim, because it was made “judiciously”…”

      Judiciousness is the considered weighing of the arguments and claims of two sides, and evaluating their relative validity and significance in accordance with universal principles of honour, truth, and justice.

      While Moslems are not universally hostile to Israel or Zionism, the preponderence of opinion among them is against Israel; if you feel there is Moslem-originated criticism of Israel that you consider to be particularly judicious, and which MP or some other pro-Israeli commentator has unfairly trashed, please provide an example (you may include yourself!).

      “…And the Hindus and Sikhs! I hate them too!…”

      I'm sure you sometimes do.

      “…I'm born in the UK. What's my national origin?…”

      It depends where your parents are from. For example, many British-born descendents of Poles who settled in Britain after WW2 will say they are of Polish national origin.

      “…In scotland the sepratists are the government…”

      In England the Scots are the Government.

      “…This is why my friend and his family have had their names published on a list of 'self-hating Jews' for supporting a Palestinian charity? …but there is an element amongst zionists that is very hostile towards Jews who criticise Israel…”

      There are Arabs who are shunned by their fellow Arabs and have lost their livelihood because they advocate reconciliation and friendship with Israel. There are Arabs who have been killed by their fellow-Arabs because they opposed and acted against extremists who were planning to carry out terroristic acts against Israelis. They do not receive any support or sympathy from you, do they? Or do they?



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