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    Racist mob attack: who to blame?


    by Sunny on 9th November, 2009 at 11:48 pm    

    The Indy reports:

    Police were today investigating a racist attack in which a mob armed with metal poles, bricks and sticks ambushed a group of Asian students. Four people suffered stab wounds when they were attacked close to City University in Islington, north London.

    Witnesses said two other men were also beaten in the violence, which involved up to 30 youths in St John Street last Friday evening. Officers were also investigating an incident earlier in the day when a gang of white and black youths shouted racist abuse at a group of Asian students. One Islamic student group said the mob incident was the culmination of a series of attacks. The Federation of Student Islamic Societies (FOSIS) said Islamophobic and racist abuse had been shouted at students.

    Who is to blame? Now it obviously can’t be the racists because… well it’s just not their fault. According to a few commenters who trolls this blog now, the blame must clearly lie with ZaNuLabour and their conspiracy to turn Britain into an Islamic state. Yes, they must be to blame.

    The daily echo of BNP ideology in the mainstream media and blogs must not ever be blamed. What these youths really wanted to do was stop ‘The Islamification of Britain’. For that, sometimes you need metal poles and bricks and a bit of abuse.


         
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    Filed in: Race politics, Religion






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    1. wyrdtimes — on 9th November, 2009 at 3:06 pm  

      In the interest of balance I forward a link I got on Twitter today…

      The Indy doesn't report. http://tinyurl.com/ydjj8bd

      Who is to blame? Now it obviously can’t be the racists because only white people are racist innit? And this one isn't racist because the Police say so.

      And hey - who cares? You won't read about this in the Guardian or the Indy eh?

    2. Sunny H — on 9th November, 2009 at 3:28 pm  

      In the interest of balance I forward a link I got on Twitter today…

      That's not “balance” that's whataboutery. Could you please keep to the topic above?
      But to clarify: I think the police should also have classed that as a racist attack. Happy? Probably not.

    3. damon — on 9th November, 2009 at 4:04 pm  

      ''The Met has described the suspects in the first attack, on Monday, as black. All of the attackers are believed to be teenagers.''

      That was in the Evening Standard today.

      http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-...

      It seems to be more about general gang culture to me. Picking on the weak.

    4. Alex — on 9th November, 2009 at 4:24 pm  

      Who is to blame? Now it obviously can’t be the racists because only white people are racist innit? And this one isn't racist because the Police say so.
      Good point. The Asian gang that attacked that white kid in Thornhill must be responsible for the other attack in London.

      It's so good to have scapegoats.

    5. Binkstein — on 9th November, 2009 at 6:23 pm  

      Racist mobs attacks on the rise, eh?

      Mob attacks in general seem to be on the rise, don't they?

      It is even alleged that non-whites committ over 90% of the gang rapes in London

      Can't possibly e true!

    6. erica123 — on 9th November, 2009 at 9:49 pm  

      The report in 'this is london', jumps from using the label asian in one paragraph to the label muslim in the next. not all asians are muslim though, surely? and also, what does 'a crowd of black and white youths' mean - shouldn't it be a crowd of 'english youths', or were some of them somali or polish?

      until we agree a lexicon of britishness, it is impossible to have a progressive debate.

    7. cjcjc — on 10th November, 2009 at 1:24 am  

      So the BNP is responsible for a gang of black teenagers attacking a group of Asians.

      Is there no limit to their power?

    8. Reza — on 10th November, 2009 at 3:36 am  

      cjcjc

      Were they black teenagers?

      It certainly has the MO of black gang violence.

      It would make this story the same as the Muslim grandfather beaten to death in a 'racist' attack in Tooting a few months ago.

      None of the mainstream press mentioned that the perpetrators were ALL black.

      I complained to the BBC and got a weasely reply.

    9. cjcjc — on 10th November, 2009 at 4:20 am  

      According to Damon's link to the Standard the physical attack was by a black gang.
      The second (racial abuse) incident was mixed.

    10. marvin — on 10th November, 2009 at 11:57 am  

      The Met has described the suspects in the first attack, on Monday, as black.

      Ah yes, obviously BNP supporters. :P

      Man, what on earth are you talking about, “BNP ideology” in mainstream media and blogs? You're starting to sound like a liberal-left Mel Phillips! Seeing BNP ideologues EVERYWHERE!!111! Come on man.

      Violence must be met with the full force of the law each and everytime.

      The responsibility, of course, lies with the attackers, and they should be held to account, and expect to be held to account.

      I think people should looking for a root cause, I know it's instinct, especially in the liberal-left narrative, and I think we should be talking about dealing with the here and now and how to deter and punish these criminal acts which can leave victims both mentally and physically scarred…

      What do people think of restorative justice? It appears it's probably most effective thing that can be done to minimise re offending rates. Looks like a good idea to moi.

    11. damon — on 10th November, 2009 at 2:19 pm  

      I only do this link to a facebook site to show how information can spread about things like this and be pretty off the mark (but understandably so when things have just happened).
      http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=864474147...

      BNP, EDL? Well not really. This university in in southern Islington. Close to the City and Clerkenwell, but when I go past I see young people outside who look like they could come from nearby Islington council estates (like this one below).

      The Andover estate just north of Arsenal's football ground is 'the other' Islington.
      Not the posh bit where Tony Blair used to live.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gbX_wCHlzo

    12. cjcjc — on 11th November, 2009 at 1:19 am  

      There are also quite a few tower(ish) blocks off St John Street in the 500m stretch of “no man's land” where City University is located.

    13. camilla — on 11th November, 2009 at 3:09 am  

      and when a muslim shoots people in USA for example - who to blame?

      Oh. I know the answer - it's the media speculating on his religion, right?

    14. Random Guy — on 11th November, 2009 at 5:45 am  

      No, its idiots like you. You are to blame Camilla.

      LOOL!

    15. quantum_singularity — on 11th November, 2009 at 5:50 am  

      There is a belief on many leftie forums that the BNP is moving away from hating non-whites to only hating muslims. So yes even blacks can cozy up to the BNP.

      Although described as Asians, it appears the real motivation for these attacks were anti-muslim in nature.

      http://www.islingtongazette.co.uk/content/islin...

    16. camilla — on 11th November, 2009 at 6:13 am  

      no, its people like you Randomguy who lie about the essence of islam, being a muslim or being a politicallycorrect-brainwashed sheep, repeating “islam is the religion of peace” without even knowning what it actually is

    17. coruja — on 11th November, 2009 at 6:14 am  

      @ damon, there's no need to compare it to other estates towards Arsenal, there are several ringing the City Univeristy campus. There is one directly opposite, across the road there are three large council tower blocks along City Road - the tallest residential blocks in London apart from the Barbican - and there are several towards Exmouth Market, which is behind the campus. The BNP is quite active in this area, it is between Old Street and Angel (in fact you can walk to the campus in 5 mins from Angel tube) and parts of it is very deprived. BNP members drink at the local Jack Beards pub at the end of Hall Street and The Royal Mail towards Exmouth Market.

      Also take in to account, that City has a large Asian student population from the London suburbs and there is a lot of affulence on display.

      So what we get is deprivation, resentment and racist politics brewing away only a few minutes away from liberal middleclass nivarna that is Islington.

      And, there is nothing unusual about white&black -v- asian violence in London either.

    18. persephone — on 11th November, 2009 at 6:20 am  

      Agreed, In fact the bnp anti muslim propaganda also seeks to give the perception that hindus & sikhs are also sympathetic to their ideas.

    19. Random Guy — on 11th November, 2009 at 6:50 am  

      No no, Camillla, I don't think you understand. Its you.

      Really.

    20. qidniz — on 11th November, 2009 at 6:52 am  

      What's this, a bunch of blacks beat up some Muslim Asians?

      What a sad day in Leftistan., none of the shibboleths (“Racist!”, “BNP!”) are working.

    21. A realist — on 11th November, 2009 at 7:19 am  

      But it is also true that not all muslims are asian. In fact gasp some are white british how does that fit into your lexicon of britishness

    22. damon — on 11th November, 2009 at 11:54 am  

      Good points there Coruja. You obviously know the area better than me.
      I did the youtube link to the Andover estate (or ''Hand-over'' estate as one commentator called it), because it showed the youth culture on an Islington estate.
      It didn't look like BNP friendly territory.

      I went into City University today as I was delivering in the area and had some time to kill. You walk around inside and it does seem amazing for such a thing to happen. It all looks so peaceful and cosmopolitan. A group who looked like muslim students (a couple of hijabs were being worn) were standing in the bandstand in the middle of the square and nothing looked amiss or threatening.

      The police should be all over these attacks. There will be loads of local young people who will know who the group who did this were, as word gets around.

      The question ''who's to blame?'' The people who did it I'd say. But the perpetrators do seem to have picked up on some wider anti-muslim sentiment.
      Students are often seem as an easy target by local tough kids all over Britain.

      Maybe we need Ann Widdecombe to come back (like in her programme about the Andover) and ask some of the local young people ''what the hell was that about?''
      Attacking students just because they were Muslims?

    23. camilla — on 11th November, 2009 at 9:11 pm  

      yeah, yeah, right, its me… i'm more influential than islam on muslims minds

    24. quantum_singularity — on 11th November, 2009 at 10:57 pm  

      The BNP are nothing more than opportunists. They realize that racism is totally unacceptable to most people. So they are moving away from that and toward an anti-muslim stance which is increasingly socially acceptable throughout the West. With social acceptance will come far more verbal/physical attacks on muslims.

      I am unaware of the relations between hindus, sikhs, and muslims in the UK as I am Indian American. However unless there is substantive change within the muslim community, I would not be surprised if muslims become a global pariah.

    25. Refresh — on 12th November, 2009 at 2:20 am  

      Camilla,

      'yeah, yeah, right, its me… i'm more influential than islam on muslims minds'

      No no no, you misunderstand completely. You are to blame for encouraging and applauding from the sidelines violence and thuggery of your own. You come across clearly as of the one-down-1.2billion-to-go brigade.

      Credit where its due, you chalked up a 2 for 1 in that German courtroom. Well done.

    26. Reza — on 12th November, 2009 at 2:22 am  

      From the Evening Standard:

      “Earlier in the day a gang of white and black youths was said to have shouted racist abuse at a group of Asian students. “

      Gives the leftie chant “black and white unite and fight!” a whole new meaning.

      Today, it's the sound of multiculturalism unravelling.

      It's just so inevitable.

      What’s the answer?

      Ban the BNP? Sure, that’ll work, because as any leftie would tell you, if it wasn’t for Griffin and co, Britain would be a multi-culti paradise with people of all colours, cultures and religions joining hands to ‘”value’ and ‘celebrate’ all their differences. (That’s the default setting for human nature after all, isn’t it Douglas?)

      How about ‘education’. Yep. Lefties like ‘education.’ Every bit as much as Goebbels and Stalin. Keep the message simple. Repeat it often. In schools. In public spaces. Through all state instruments. The police, hospitals, civil service, local government.

      “Diversity is good. Celebrate diversity. Because diversity is good.”

      But hold on. Aren’t we already doing that? Haven’t we been doing it for decades?

      So we need more laws. More anti-‘racism’ laws. Make sure that no one can criticise another race, religion or culture. That’ll solve it.

      But don’t we already have some of the most uncompromising and draconian ‘race’ legislation in the world? And it doesn’t seem to be solving ‘racism’. If anything it’ll make things worse.

      So Sunny and co, what is the answer? You’re very good at criticising, sniping and accusing, but it’s noticeable that you never come up with any concrete proposals.

      Except for advocating more and more immigration.

      So that’s your answer isn’t it? Race replacement. Only when the indigenous British become a minority can your bitter, revenge-motivated Utopia come to pass. Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from. For all the sins of ‘whitey’. You’ll get even.

      The plot thinnens.

    27. persephone — on 12th November, 2009 at 2:25 am  

      As part of their opportunistic ideology they have gone to the extent of trolling this site as asians in disguise to create a perception of division and show that asians are against muslims/islam. They have to do this because there is a dearth of asians who buy into their ideology and they, in their true identity, have not succeeded in debating - including upon this site.

    28. Reza — on 12th November, 2009 at 3:10 am  

      I’m feeling cornered! My cover’s been blown.

      So I'll come clean. I'm not really a BNP stooge.

      After all, how could I be? I doubt many BNP members would have a good understanding of Shia Islam, modern Iran, ancient Persia and the ability to speak Farsi.

      Who could possibly be responsible? Think Persephone. You’re clearly a clever one. What group of people have the dark skills and recourses for such machinations?

      That’s right, those darned sneaky Zionist neo-con Joos!

      Yep. I work for Mossad. As a child I was recruited for their “Undercover Rogue Covert Response Anti-(Islam, Immigration and Multiculturalism) Pretend-Iranian Team”.

      U. R. C.R.A.P. for short.

      From an early age I was schooled in Iranian culture, language and history. I was briefed in Shia Islam and fed a diet of chello kebab, mast, piyaz tond and sabzee khordan.

      After graduating I was put to work, commenting on PP and Harry’s Place in order to make lefties uncomfortable with the irrationality and intellectual bankruptcy of their belief systems for which I receive a salary of Israeli shekels per annum.

      You know persephone, some people say that conspiracy theorists are stupid.

      But people like you demonstrate just how fine the line is between clever and stupid.

      As they say in Iran:

      “Fehk mikhoni toh zerangi. Barikheh toh hichi demiduni. Heyvooni…”

      (I learned that during my Mossad training.)

    29. Jai — on 12th November, 2009 at 4:21 am  

      a good understanding of Shia Islam, modern Iran, ancient Persia

      False. “Reza's” understanding of all of the above has been repeatedly exposed as being very poor indeed.

      I doubt many BNP members would have…..the ability to speak Farsi.

      Irrelevant. Enoch Powell was fluent in Urdu, for example. And posting random comments in Farsi, along with dropping random references to Persian food and locations, does not prove anything about one's own background. It is very easy to obtain such information from second-hand sources — anyone with access to the internet can do it, for example.

      So that’s your answer isn’t it? Race replacement.

      According to his own logic, “Reza” himself has actively contributed to this, considering that he claims that he is Iranian, his wife is “Central European”, and he allegedly has mixed-race children.

      And “race replacement” is yet another addition to the very long list of specific BNP terms he has repeatedly used.

      So that’s your answer isn’t it? Race replacement. Only when the indigenous British become a minority can your bitter, revenge-motivated Utopia come to pass. Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from. For all the sins of ‘whitey’. You’ll get even.

      That explicitly racist, neurotic rant exposes “Reza's” BNP credentials most of all. The mask inevitably falls off, as it always does.

    30. persephone — on 12th November, 2009 at 4:36 am  

      How did you know I meant you when I mentioned no names?

      When are you starting to volunteer as a Farsi speaking interpreter for IKWRO – they are still waiting? I notice all you 'did' instead was make a 'virtual' promisory payment.

      And thank heavens for free internet translations – I use it all the time with my Italian friends since I don't speak italian.

      For all your distaste of immigrants & the focus on related issues I am surprised you spend so much time to open up debate around them. I'd be careful. So much contact may taint your carefully constructed assimilation.

    31. Reza — on 12th November, 2009 at 5:25 am  

      “And thank heavens for free internet translations – I use it all the time with my Italian friends since I don't speak italian.”

      I actually do speak a little Italian as I spend a fair amount of time there. I've found that Internet translations invariably come out as nonsense, whenever you want to translate anything other than a single word.

      Can you please let me know a site that will translate whole sentences without loads of grammatical errors?

      I could even use it for my Farsi, which admittedly is getting little rusty these days.

      In return, I’d be glad to send you (and your buddy Jai) a tin-foil hat to prevent right-wing brainwaves from controlling your mind.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat

      Man nemifarmam cherah toh khejolat nemikeshi. Fehk mikohnam toh khenghi.

    32. Jai — on 12th November, 2009 at 5:34 am  

      I’d be glad to send you (and your buddy Jai) a tin-foil hat to prevent right-wing brainwaves from controlling your mind.

      Perhaps, in return, someone should send “Reza” a KKK white hood and a complementary burning cross, since the following statement by him earlier today…..

      Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from.

      ….proves without a shadow of a doubt what a disgustingly racist piece of work “Reza” really is.

    33. persephone — on 12th November, 2009 at 6:03 am  

      “Can you please let me know a site that will translate whole sentences without loads of grammatical errors?”

      Thats why orgn's like IKWRO need real live translators who speak Farsi, albeit rusty. Why not help your fellow iranians? Surprising since you have said you begrudge funding your (taxpayers) money on translation services & IKWRO are very good at retaining anonymity which I know is your stated priority.

      Having volunteers to replace paid for interpreters on state funded language/translation services would be one of the solutions that you are seeking. Or is it that you are not truly seeking a solution? Or perhaps just seeking those that are more purist solutions…

    34. Reza — on 12th November, 2009 at 6:17 am  

      “Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from.”

      I liked that statement so much I've posted it again.

      How is that racist? Are those places not relative sh*tholes? If they aren’t, then why did your parents or grandparents leave them and move half way across the world? I don’t mind admitting that my (pretend) parents left Iran because it was a relatively sh*tty place to live. Still is.

      In that statement, I’m presenting an analysis of the mindset of some second and third generation immigrants hailing from the Indian Subcontinent, Africa and the Middle East. The mindset that results in a resentment and envy of indigenous British people, their history, culture and values and the desire to change, undermine and and even destroy them.

      And are you really telling me that you didn’t grow up with stories from your parents and grandparents of all the terrible things the British did to your countries? Everything they stole from you? That the only reason your countries are wretched is because of the British?

      I’ve certainly encountered those attitudes among certain ‘ethnic’ groups.

      Are you really expecting me to believe you haven’t?

    35. persephone — on 12th November, 2009 at 6:30 am  

      Reza: “I’m presenting an analysis “

      persephone: *Coughs* & *splutters* at reading far right messaging being presented as analysis.

    36. Reza — on 12th November, 2009 at 6:50 am  

      As this is the second time you’ve brought this up, I’ll assume you think you have a point. So I’ll answer you.

      I will, (when I get round to buying a postal order) send the IKWRO £50. Believe it or not, I don’t like suffering and I do keep my word.

      However, my conscience would not allow me to work for an organisation like IKWRO.

      Why?

      Well firstly, I doubt that they’d welcome a volunteer that would instantly report any illegal immigrant to the authorities. Neither, I suspect, would they welcome someone so uncompromising that they would insist on reporting any abusive husband, brother or father to the police with a demand that they’re promptly arrested. Somehow, I doubt that these organisations welcome that approach.

      Furthermore, my (pretend) knowledge of Iran, its laws and its society means that I’m unlikely to be fooled by some of the asylum ‘stories’ I’ll hear. Yes, Iran is a pretty unpleasant place to live, particularly if you’re poor. But the authorities there generally leave you alone, unless you start actively leading an opposition to Islamic government. Simply saying you hate the government or regime doesn’t put you at risk. People are very open in their criticism there. Much more so than in the time of the Shah.

      Finally, I would be incensed every time I came across a chadori Iranian woman (or an unshaven, black-fore-headed ‘Hezbollahi’ man*’) who supported Islamic government. I know that most Iranians who dress like that believe that, even if they are critical of the current government.

      I would say “WTF are you doing here?” You’ve created your Islamic Utopia, why don’t you f*ck off and live there?”

      Again, not an attitude that I feel the IKWRO would support.

      Answer your question?

      (*You can ask an Iranian or a Shia why some ‘Hezbollahi’ men have a black scar on their fore-heads and how they get them.)

    37. camilla — on 12th November, 2009 at 6:56 am  

      no, you don't get it … I don't care who you blame - no surprise, actually, when a muslim commints something - according to modern tradition, the guilt should be shared by non-muslim society and so-called “islamophobes”

      I'm not applauding, I condemn violence while you are trying to support and explain muslim violence…

      ok. I'm tired, nevermind…

      “2 for 1 in that German courtroom” - what are you talking about? what's that got to do with me?

      and try to be more original…

      muslims are the best violence supporters, by the way…

    38. Jai — on 12th November, 2009 at 7:04 am  

      Trust me, “Reza”, on both a personal and a professional level my parents have had a far more positive, far-reaching and indeed life-changing impact on large numbers of white British people in this country then you will ever manage in your entire lifetime.

      And shame on you for referring to people's parents in an attempt to further your agenda. There was of course a recent precedent for that kind of behaviour on a certain edition of Question Time involving a certain Holocaust-denying political leader.

      However, since you've decided to bring people's parents into the equation…..

      And are you really telling me that you didn’t grow up with stories from your parents and grandparents of all the terrible things the British did to your countries? Everything they stole from you? That the only reason your countries are wretched is because of the British?

      Are you telling me, “Reza”, that your parents brought you up to believe that Iran is inherently and irrevocably a 'sh*tty place to live', that you should eradicate any traces of Iranian cultural influence and heritage from your identity or behaviour in order to ingratiate yourself with racists who may otherwise single you out for it, that you should be a complete coward about the matter, that Iranian culture and history has absolutely nothing positive to offer the rest of the world, that the same applies to all non-white people and majority non-white countries, that you should feel so ashamed and embarrassed by your alleged background that you should completely disassociate yourself from absolutely everyone else who is non-white and that you should indeed shout from the rooftops how much you despise them, that you should target Asians in particular, that you should in fact spend day and night writing sneering, internally-contradictory, explicitly racist comments to anonymous non-white people on internet blogs ?

      In that statement, I’m presenting an analysis of the mindset of some second and third generation immigrants hailing from the Indian Subcontinent, Africa and the Middle East. The mindset that results in a resentment and envy of indigenous British people, their history, culture and values and the desire to change, undermine and and even destroy them.

      Since you've been hypocritically making references to your views about people's “mental health”, here's a suggestion for you: Why don't you take that specific paragraph I've just quoted, along with the entire comment addressed to Sunny which included the statement you 'liked so much you posted it again', and every other comment on this blog where you've mentioned the terms “assimilable”, “multiculturalism”, “multi-culti”, “indigenous”, “foreigner”, “host nation”, “client state”, “parasite”, and “race replacement”, and show them to your GP so that he/she can evaluate your remarks from a professional psychiatric perspective.

    39. persephone — on 12th November, 2009 at 7:26 am  

      “Somehow, I doubt that these organisations welcome that approach.”

      In fact they celebrate bringing the perpetrators to ground on their homepage. For eg

      “IKWRO Homepage: 5 June 2009: Mohammad Saleh Ali arrives at Biggin Hill
      IKWRO and the Justice for Banaz campaign were delighted to learn that the High Court of Suleymania chaired by Judge Shaykh Latif has allowed Mohammad Saleh Ali to be extradited to the United Kingdom where he will stand trial, accused of taking part in the vicious rape and 'honour' killing of Banaz Mahmod, a 20 year old young Kurdish woman.

      IKWRO are very pleased that our fears that Ali would not be extradited were groundless, and that our hopes were fulfilled. We salute the Judge Shaykh Latif for making a decision that we hope forms a positive step towards recognising women's rights to live protecting women against crime of honour as well as prosecuting perpetrators which would discouraging so-called 'honour' killings in the region.”

      BTW You don't have to provide all that unrequested iranian desk research. It comes across as overcompensating. All I suggested was that you volunteer to be an interpretor, not other 'evidence' of your iranian background.

    40. Reza — on 12th November, 2009 at 7:41 am  

      “Are you telling me, “Reza”, that your parents brought you up to believe that Iran is inherently and irrevocably a 'sh*tty place to live', that you should eradicate any traces of Iranian cultural influence and heritage from your identity…”

      Not exactly. Iran has a lot going for it. Generous and friendly people. Wonderful scenery. Great food. Interesting archaeological sites.

      A great place to visit. But sadly, a sh*tty place to live. Why? Well I believe that a society is created by the effect of the people living in it. And however nice Iranians are individually, I believe that together, they create a sh*tty society. And ultimately, it is their culture and values that shape the society they create.

      In Iran, that is Shia Islam.

      I do wonder how Iran would have looked if it hadn’t suffered an Arab invasion and brutal, forced Islamification that took 300 years and continues today.

      I visited Yazd a couple of years ago. (I know, I know, ‘pretended’ to visit). It is one of the few places that continues to have a small Zoroastrian community.

      My Uncle and I insisted on a Zoroastrian tour guide. The hotel thought we were mad. But we insisted and eventually someone found a Zoroastrian cabbie to show us around.

      For the first few hours he did a great job showing us around, buying us tea and ‘sharbat’ for my kids and generally displaying a level of kindness and hospitality that even in Iran was astonishing.

      But after a few hours, when he realised that we genuinely weren’t practicing Muslims, he opened up and started telling us the truth about the treatment of Zoroastrians by Muslims, throughout history to the present day.

      If only you could ever have had the opportunity to see what I’ve seen and to speak to people I’ve spoken to. (Or pretend to have.)

      I am proud of Persia’s history and heritage. Before it was destroyed forever by Islam.

      And I’m not alone among (pretend) Iranians in this view. If you wander around northern Tehran as I have (pretended to) on many occasions, you’ll see young Iranians wearing the Faravahar (the Zoroastrian symbol). You’ll even come across it in London. My kids bought them and wore them when we went demonstrating outside the Iranian Embassy a few months ago.

      If you know any Iranians ask them why some people wear it.

      Wearing it doesn’t make you a Zoroastrian. It means that you reject the barbaric Arabic culture and value system that is Islam. It means you recognise that Islam destroyed your homeland. It means that you recognise there was once something far better.

    41. damon — on 12th November, 2009 at 7:44 am  

      What's with the ''black mark on the forehead'' that Reza talks about?
      I have seen it many times, and years ago in (I can't remember exactly which muslim country it was) I remember a local guy pointing out such a grey mark on someone's forehead, and even though he didn't speak much Englsh, told me by hand gestures and body language that the mark was made by people rubbing their forehead constantly with their thumbs - to give the impression it had been formed from praying so much.

      The young guy (maybe it was in Egypt) told me this with some scorn for the man with the mark.

    42. Reza — on 12th November, 2009 at 8:35 am  

      Damon

      During prayer, Shia Muslims put their foreheads on a clay stone called a 'toorbeh'.

      Some men, heat the 'toorbeh' and press it against their foreheads, to create a scar. This to show to the world how often and vigourously they pray.

      We call them 'hezballahi'. They're fanatics.

    43. Shamit — on 12th November, 2009 at 10:35 am  

      Jai

      I bet Reza's parents are very proud of him for his so called assimilation - remember The Coopers - I think Reza had given Sanjay a few more episodes out of his stupid rantings.

      But don't blame him — he is not british after all - he is a migrant. And after today, the Government would be soon passing a legislation where naturalised citizenship could be taken away by the Courts on the recommendations of the Home Secretary. Maybe Reza wants to make sure he is whiter than white so that no one takes his red passport away.

      Reza — you know what. This is our country we were fucking born here and grew up here - we belong here and we like the multiculturalism in our country - you don't like it - as you like to say Fuck Off -

      I was being polite but when you brought Jai's parents in you crossed a line - we british asians take that line very seriously you impertinent little fool. And I don't need lecture about my country from some migrant - how does that sound bitch?
      *********************************************
      To everyone else - apologies for the rude behaviour but I am just giving Reza a bit of his own medicine - sorry Sunny, Rumbold and Leon — you know I am not usually like this but this asshole has crossed a line one too many times

    44. Jai — on 12th November, 2009 at 10:45 am  

      But sadly, a sh*tty place to live. Why? Well I believe that a society is created by the effect of the people living in it. And however nice Iranians are individually, I believe that together, they create a sh*tty society. And ultimately, it is their culture and values that shape the society they create.

      If Iran is full of 'generous and friendly people', “Reza”, as per your statement here….

      Iran has a lot going for it. Generous and friendly people.

      …..and a country whose culture includes exemplary displays of kindness and hospitality, as per your statement here…..

      a level of kindness and hospitality that even in Iran was astonishing

      …..then that would have a direct positive impact on the culture and society of the country as a whole. Furthermore, it means that a) Shia Islam doesn't necessarily have a negative influence on people, or b) that the 'generous and friendly', 'kind and hospitable' people in Iran aren't exlusively or predominantly influenced by Shia Islam, and c) that correspondingly, Iranian culture and society isn't inherently a “sh*tty place to live” as a homeland whose “culture and value system have been destroyed by Islam”.

      As always, too many logical and factual contradictions in your assertions, “Reza”. Far too many.

      And as for those Zoroastrians which you're shedding so many crocodile tears for, you're forgetting that, historically, many of them were given asylum in India and were successfully integrated into the subcontinent's social and cultural fabric specifically because of the millennia-old multireligious, multiethnic and multicultural nature of India, concepts which you like to sneer at so dismissively and which you like to quote back at me now and then, since I've specifically used those terms in conjunction in previous occasions.

      Ravi Naik is spot-on. Your entire attitude and behaviour is exactly like those historical individuals who attempted to impose religious homogeneity on Persia (and condemned people like Hafez and Attar as heretics, or ignored the humane teachings of Rumi and Sa'adi), along with the more recent corrupt mullahtocracy which has arisen there since 1979.

      And as we've seen, your bigotry isn't restricted to “Islam the religion” as opposed to “Muslims as a people”, regardless of your claims to the contrary. In fact, it's not even restricted to Muslims, as indicated by this disgusting statement which I'm going to quote yet again:

      So that’s your answer isn’t it? Race replacement. Only when the indigenous British become a minority can your bitter, revenge-motivated Utopia come to pass. Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from.

      Bear in mind that this paranoid, hysterical statement was addressed towards Asians en masse, irrespective of the specific individuals and their respective attitudes and backgrounds, irrespective of whether they're Muslims or not, irrespective of the fact that the subcontinent has included huge numbers of Muslims who had far more in common with Rumi, Sa'adi, and Hafez than with the orthodox mullahs and warlords, irrespective of the fact that the extensive historical contact between India and Persia resulted in the latter's “generous, friendly, kind and hospitable” culture also exerting an influence on Indian society, irrespective of the fact that the historical links and similarities between India and Persia go back thousands of years, and irrespective of the fact that this not only includes those elements of Persia's history and heritage that you claim to be so proud of but also extremely influential figures who had a huge amount in common with Cyrus the Great (someone you've previously claimed to admire so much). And the latter includes some of India's greatest Muslim Mughal rulers as well as leaders from other backgrounds.

      Emotive rhetoric and ignorant, misinformed, propaganda-laden hyperbole are pointless when “wilful myopia clouds reality” and completely warps one's mind far beyond the limits of reason and rationality. Most of all when the primary motivator driving you is blind, psychopathic, fanatical hatred.

      But then it's easy to blame the targets of one's racist bigotry rather than taking responsibility for one's clinical psychiatric disorders. As an example of your true state of mind, that final deranged quote above says it all, “Reza”.

    45. Refresh — on 12th November, 2009 at 11:04 am  

      'that final deranged quote above says it all, “Reza”.'

      He's clearly had enough rope.

    46. qidniz — on 12th November, 2009 at 5:24 pm  

      am proud of Persia’s history and heritage. Before it was destroyed forever by Islam. [...] Wearing[a faravahar] doesn’t make you a Zoroastrian. It means that you reject the barbaric Arabic culture and value system that is Islam. It means you recognise that Islam destroyed your homeland. It means that you recognise there was once something far better.

      There, now you've done it. You've dissed Islam. The Leftistani dhimmis here, who make a point of getting their panties in a bunch on behalf of Islam, will never forgive you.

    47. Sunny H — on 12th November, 2009 at 5:53 pm  

      There, now you've done it. You've dissed Islam. The Leftistani dhimmis here, who make a point of getting their panties in a bunch on behalf of Islam, will never forgive you.

      The thing is though… both you and Reza are dicks. It's got nothing to do with cussing religion - you're just dicks. And you soil this blog nearly every day. That's a bigger annoyance.

    48. Reza — on 13th November, 2009 at 1:53 am  

      There was no contradiction whatsoever in my post.

      In many nepotistic, low-trust societies, you can find people that are generous and hospitable on an individual basis. However, as a society, a nepotistic, low-trust culture will result in corruption and brutality.

      There is an old Arab saying:

      “Me against my brother. My brother and me against my cousin. By brother, my cousin and me against the world.”

      As for my “disgusting statement”, it clearly got people’s backs up.

      However, I am attempting to understand what makes some immigrants and their offspring so resent, even hate the indigenous British peoples, their culture, values and history.

      I surmise that it offended so because there was an element of truth in it. I’ve heard many south Asians say that Britain abused and stole from their ancestral homelands.

      I’ve even heard that claim used as justification for mass immigration. “The British are getting a taste of their own medicine.”

      So why doesn’t anyone reassure me?

      Tell me you didn’t hear any anti-British sentiment on your grandfather or father’s knee.

      I’ve hit a nerve haven’t I?

    49. Reza — on 13th November, 2009 at 2:18 am  

      I trust you’ve been reading the papers Sunny:

      “Immigration has cost some parts of Britain, says PM”

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/poli...

      “Prime Minister announces plans to close door on foreign workers”

      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/...

      “Non-Europeans shut out from another 250,000 skilled jobs”

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/nov/12/noneur...

      Seems to me that the “dicks” are getting their way.

      I can understand how upsetting it must for you be to have “dicks” on your blog.

      After all, this is probably the only place where you could hope to pretend that people agree with you.

    50. Reza — on 13th November, 2009 at 2:46 am  

      Shamit

      “And after today, the Government would be soon passing a legislation where naturalised citizenship could be taken away by the Courts on the recommendations of the Home Secretary.”

      Really? That's fantastic news. I've advocated removing citizenship from naturalised undesirables for years but thought that it would be unachievable. So this is really encouraging. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Can’t wait to read more.

      “This is our country we were fucking born here and grew up here - we belong here and we like the multiculturalism in our country - you don't like it - as you like to say Fuck Off –“

      I would “Fuck Off” if I believed that the majority of British people supported multiculturalism. But all the evidence suggests that the majority don’t. So I’m going to wait and see. However, I have bought a home abroad as a precaution against the inevitable inter-community violence that will ensue if immigration and multiculturalism policies aren’t reversed. So far, the signs that they might be are encouraging. Even Brown, leader of the party that inflicted so much damage to this country from mass immigration and multiculturalism is backpedalling furiously. Or as Sunny would say, “adopting the language of the BNP”. So the future’s looking a little brighter every day.

      “I was being polite but when you brought Jai's parents in you crossed a line - we british asians take that line very seriously you impertinent little fool.”

      Jai and co resort to personal insults, against me, my and even my parents on this site.

      It’s water off a ducks back, and only demonstrates the flimsiness of their ideology.

      It wasn’t my intention to insult anyone’s parents, although I do accept that my deliberately provocative use of the term “shithole” was insensitive.

      I should have phrased it differently. However, I believe that my point was a valid one.

    51. persephone — on 13th November, 2009 at 3:12 am  

      “However, I have bought a home abroad as a precaution”

      Nick, buying a home in Wales does not count as abroad

    52. Reza — on 13th November, 2009 at 3:42 am  

      Ho ho ho!

    53. Shamit Ghosh — on 13th November, 2009 at 3:54 am  

      Reza

      I don't like your thinking but I give kudos to you on not taking the bait and responding in kind to my verbal insults. I appreciate also that you have taken on board that some comments were a tad bit too insensitive.

      And, what I hear, even though the Prime Minister did not spell out in his speech, it is in the works and that there would be cross party support for legislation that revokes naturalised citizenship on some cases especially when people commit or are part of a conspiracy to commit heinous crimes.

      While I agree with the sentiments of the Prime Minister in the speech - I find it appalling that it took 12 years for the Labour Government to make this speech and for failing to clean up the immigration mess and throw out undesirables.

      And I agree with you on the fact that we need stricter immigration controls and there is nothing racist about that. However, how we go about it and the language we use especially the political leaders is very important and the language should not be such that idiots such as the BNP leader could use it to ruin harmonious society which exists in most parts of our country.

      I definitely do not want language that targets a particular race or religion or creed but language that seeks the best for british society.

      And another small point- you make a snide remark about Sunny and immigration. In a recent meeting about a month or so ago (where I was present) Sunny urged the highest levels of the Government to admit that labour did get it wrong on immigration and that the party should own up to it.

      The thing is when Sunny says something like that it is acceptable and people take it seriously that is why I talked about persuasion. Maybe you underestimate Sunny and got his value system completely wrong. Both Jai and Sunny deserve respect because they stand up to all sorts of extremists - not pick and choose.

      And I can gurantee that the civil unrest that BNP hopes for would not happen in this country. So use the home abroad as a holiday home

    54. Shamit Ghosh — on 13th November, 2009 at 3:57 am  

      Further, you do come across as a BNP troll - more intelligent than LJB llb honours for shite university but the language you use and the insults you throw around comes from the BNP playbook.

      If you are not a BNP troll don't use that language because it just gives those racist pricks and intellectually challenged gutless swines ammunition. If you really want the best for British society I am sure you would agree BNP is farthest from what is best for our country.

    55. Fojee Punjabi — on 13th November, 2009 at 4:02 am  

      Maybe now these Muslim gangs will learn to shut the fuck up and know their place.

      They've taken the piss out of everyone else by ganging up and attacking white, black and other Asian people for far too long.

      I for one have no sympathy for these Muslims.

      Long overdue this was, in my opinion… maybe now the Muslims in this country will stop intimidating us “kaffirs”.

    56. Jai — on 13th November, 2009 at 4:14 am  

      There was no contradiction whatsoever in my post.

      “Reza”, if you can't see the contradictions within that post and countless others you've deigned to post here, then your psychiatric problems are even more severe than we thought.

      In fact, your own words apply to you:

      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/6323#co...

      “The fact you don't see them says something about you not seeing anything that contradicts your intellectually bankrupt world-view.

      And you actually mention “discussion”? All you ever do is make baseless pronouncements unsupported by any evidence or simply contradict points, again without ever providing evidence. “Oh no it isn't!”. Like the “argument clinic” sketch in Monty Python. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

      And failing all that you resort to an ad hominem attack, albeit a bland and humourless one.

      Now that's boring.”

      There is an old Arab saying:

      Irrelevant. Persians aren't Arabs. And their culture certainly isn't predominantly based on Arab culture. In fact, most real-life Iranians would be insulted at the attempted conflation you've been repeatedly trying to promote.

      So why doesn’t anyone reassure me?

      Because, “Reza”, nobody is under any obligation to do so. The world doesn't revolve around you. It doesn’t exist to indulge your self-centred whims and demands. And, for that matter, this website doesn’t exist to gratify your egotistical need for constant attention and importance.

      Tell me you didn’t hear any anti-British sentiment on your grandfather or father’s knee.

      Tell me you didn’t hear any anti-Asian sentiment on your father’s knee. Tell me your father wouldn’t approve of you accusing random Asians of secretly harbouring dark desires about “race replacement” and “revenge for colonialism”. Tell me your father wouldn’t approve of you spending your time obsessively promoting racist propaganda about Asians across the internet 24/7. Tell me your father wouldn’t approve of you describing the Indian subcontinent as “backward sh*holes that most of your ancestors hail from”.

      So what’s it going to be, “Reza”: Did your father really bring you up this way ?

      Jai and co resort to personal insults, against…..even my parents on this site.

      You really are a pathological liar, aren't you ? Provide the URL links and the specific quotes for any comments prior to this thread on this website where I have written a personal insult against your parents.

    57. Jai — on 13th November, 2009 at 4:20 am  

      Qidniz,

      There, now you've done it. You've dissed Islam. The Leftistani dhimmis here, who make a point of getting their panties in a bunch on behalf of Islam, will never forgive you.

      Apart from the “minor” detail that people like myself, Shamit, and several other regular commentators who have opposed “Reza” aren’t actually “left-wing”, the problem, mundea, is that most of the remarks by “Reza” on this thread which the rest of us have been referring to weren’t specifically about Islam or Muslims. They’ve been about the Indian subcontinent as a whole and South Asians en masse, irrespective of the latter’s actual background or religious affiliation.

      Which means that he hates you too.

    58. Jai — on 13th November, 2009 at 4:23 am  

      I’ve hit a nerve haven’t I?

      On the contrary, “Reza”, it's clear that the nerve that's been hit is very much within that misfiring neurological mess in your head that you laughingly call a brain. Let's look at some examples of your hallucinatory, ill-advised, clinically paranoid outbursts:

      Two from this thread alone:

      So that’s your answer isn’t it? Race replacement. Only when the indigenous British become a minority can your bitter, revenge-motivated Utopia come to pass. Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from. For all the sins of ‘whitey’. You’ll get even.

      ….

      I’m presenting an analysis of the mindset of some second and third generation immigrants hailing from the Indian Subcontinent, Africa and the Middle East. The mindset that results in a resentment and envy of indigenous British people, their history, culture and values and the desire to change, undermine and and even destroy them.

      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/6431#co...

      First we have the ‘ethnic’ nepotists like Sunny, who clearly are motivated by an envy and resentment bordering on hatred of the ‘indigenous’ peoples and cultures of this country. And behind every one of his posts is a theme: “what’s best for me and MY people”.

      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/6318#co...

      Deep down in your psyche is an envy and resentment towards the ‘indigenous’ British people. I’ve seen it before. You care little for them.

      http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/6318#co...

      your hatred and fear of the indigenous people of this country.

      And the list goes on and on.

      That’s a common theme amongst extremists of all stripes. Regardless of how much you may attempt to deny, obfuscate, and dissimulate, regardless of how much you may attempt to promote an image of being “reasonable” and “moderate”, it’s as though you suffer from a form of “racist Tourettes”: Eventually, despite your best efforts to hide the truth, you always end up blurting out your real views.

      To quote you again during one of your previous psychotic episodes: “You’ve been exposed. I see you.”

    59. Shamit Ghosh — on 13th November, 2009 at 4:24 am  

      Sunny

      Damn Son - your blog is famous. I just got an email from someone who told me there is no need for a legislation to revoke naturalised citizenship - its already included in Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 where the Home Secretary can revoke it for doing something against the vital interests of the United Kingdom.

      I stand corrected.
      **********************************************
      Fojee Punjabi - you are LLB Hons aren;t you?

      Why give Punjabi's a bad name - tu to hai nahi koi punjabi munda - as they would say in Goodness Gracious - kiss my chaddi ullu da pattha

    60. Fojee Punjabi — on 13th November, 2009 at 4:33 am  

      Shamit:

      Nope, I'm a Finance buff.

      I could still do the CPE though… *itches even hairier chin*

    61. Reza — on 13th November, 2009 at 5:00 am  

      Shamit

      There's not much you've written that I disagree with, although unsurprisingly, I would go further.

      Despite what people here accuse me of, I loathe racism and the BNP. The BNP will never come to power, but if they did, they certainly would commit irreparable damage to British society.

      However, I believe governments of the last 20 or 30 years have also irreparably damaged British society. And it’s such a shame that it took the rise of the BNP to prompt the government to actually start addressing the issue.

      Where we disagree is with regards to multiculturalism. By “multiculturalism” I mean the ideology that gives equivalence to all religious ideologies and cultures, including those that are alien to the ‘indigenous’ or established ‘ground-rules’ of this society.

      I also have a downer on Islam. Not Muslims. Islam.

      This is partly because of personal experience. Before 9/11 I didn’t give it much thought. I accepted my (pretend) Muslim background, although I was never religious. Only when I started trying to understand Islam more, did I realise what a fundamentally flawed and nasty ideology it was. My downer on Islam is not unusual among ‘ex-Muslisms’.

      And I blame Islam for Iran. I don’t believe that Iran will become a recognisable democracy in our lifetimes. Islam, in my opinion, has destroyed that civilisation forever. Just one more of the multitude of civilisations made extinct by this aggressive, domineering and uncompromising ideology.

      But I do recognise that Islam has a thousand, probably a million different interpretations. However, we cannot continue allowing individual Muslims here to demand accommodations because of what THEY tell us Islam demands.

      The solution would be to define and document the ‘Islam’, that we as a society are willing to tolerate, and in particular, what we’re not willing to tolerate.

      Then allow Muslims to ask for accommodation on matters that fall within those definitions.

      Muslims who do not accept the limits we place will obviously be allowed to believe whatever they want. However, they’ll know that their beliefs will not be accommodated by society or defended by British equality laws.

      Another point of disagreement would be my opposition in allowing a level of demographic change that could result in a ‘duo-cultural’ society, as I believe that these inevitably tear themselves apart.

      Finally, I don’t share your view of Sunny being part of the solution. For me he epitomises the problem. Virtually all his posts regurgitate the same fabrications and denials. The same accusations that the millions of people so unsettled by demographic change are ‘racists’.

      People like Sunny have successfully stymied any debate on multiculturalism and immigration for years, leading to a situation where only the rise of the BNP was enough to allow the established parties to ignore allegations of ‘racism’ and finally begin addressing the issue. Albeit too late in my opinion.

      Furthermore, people like Sunny continue to muddy the water by claiming that peoples’ opposition to the staggering demographic change in their communities can be solved by building more social housing or pumping more money into schools, hospitals and the welfare system. This is so wrong. All the evidence shows that people are unsettled because they feel that their communities are becoming foreign lands where they are a minority.

      That’s why we get ‘white-flight’ segregated communities and ghettoisation.

      Moreover, in people like Sunny, I sense a resentment, even hatred of the ‘indigenous’ peoples, culture and history of this country. They appear to care little for the ‘common good’.

      Finally, can you point me to a link regarding proposals for legislation that revokes naturalised citizenship.

    62. Shamit Ghosh — on 13th November, 2009 at 5:05 am  

      Reza

      I will respond to you later. However, as i said in a post earlier, I was corrected by an email that there is no need for a new legislation. The legislation already exists and it is here; http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2002/20020041.htm

      Its the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002

    63. persephone — on 13th November, 2009 at 5:56 am  

      Just for the sake of ending these conspiracy theories, are you stating you are not Lee John Barnes?

    64. Shamit — on 13th November, 2009 at 6:00 am  

      Perse

      As I have said many times before - you are a class act.

    65. EC1 — on 13th November, 2009 at 6:54 am  

      Just to let you know, Coruja is lying. The Royal Mail pub has been shut and boarded up for at least 3 years and Jack Beards has long since become Bar 32. The nearest estates to City Uni are the Spa Green and Finsbury. They are the normal inner London mix of elderly white people who have lived there all their lives, a few down at heel white underclass and multi-ethnic mix of longer term and recent arrivals. Youths are a mix of races, with the predominant culture being urban black. The black youths dominate and are the more aggressive. These two estates are fairly quiet and some of the best maintained in London. This is because they are in a very sought after area and an unusually large number of flats are privately owned or sub let to middle-class professionals. Virtually all local pubs are expensive gastro eateries. I know the area very well and have never heard of a BNP presence. As with all parts of the UK there can often be tension between local poorly educated youths and students. I suspect there has been an altercation between one or more Muslim students and a local black youth. This has escalated into the reported attack. The racist angle used by the press and the media is just some name calling.

    66. Reza — on 13th November, 2009 at 6:57 am  

      Jai

      Time out.

      Clearly you feel that I personally insulted you parents (and to be fair I do how you feel that). Therefore, I apologise unreservedly. I got carried away with the point I was making. There’s no excuse.

      And I give that sincere apology regardless of your animosity and constant personal attacks on my character.

      I clearly recall that people here have commented on my (pretend) parents before. It may not have been you. I can’t be bothered to find the post. But even if they had, I still regret the way I made my point. Because I do believe I had a point.

      “Irrelevant. Persians aren't Arabs”

      Of course they’re not. Persians generally find being called Arabs to be insulting.

      There is an popular Persian rhyme that goes:

      “Arab dar biyabahn malakh mikhoreh. Sag e Esfahan ab yakh mikhoreh.”

      (The Arab in the desert eats locusts. The dog in Esfahan (the old capital) drinks iced water.)

      That tells you a little of the Persian attitude to Arabs. Racism isn’t a European monopoly.

      However, I consider Islam to be and Arab value system and that’s why I gave the example of the old Arab saying.

      Finally, I am not attacking all south Asians or ‘all’ anyone else. But I am interested in how cultural or historical prejudices can effect the way a population behaves.

      I’ll give you an example. I happen to be pro-Israel and also have a lot of time for the values of Judaism. My closest friend is an observant Jew and a cantor at a synagogue. I’ve attended and heard him sing. I’ve read books by Jonathan Sacks and recommended them on this site.

      However, I still ponder difficult questions such as whether the historically understandable paranoia of Jewish people with regard to European nationalism has helped undermine European cultural confidence and reasonable levels of nationalism, creating an environment of cultural equivalence. I don’t know. But I’m thinking about it.

      Just as I’m trying to understand why there seems to be a degree of hostility from some sections of the south Asian community towards the ‘indigenous’ peoples, their history, culture and values here. Again, I don’t know the answer. But I’m thinking about it.

      Finally, keep up the good work exposing me as a ‘pretend’ Iranian-born BNP stooge.

      It’s interesting; although I’m surprised that despite your obvious efforts, you haven’t been able to produce a killer piece of evidence. Conjecture isn’t evidence.

      What a hard time I must be having, not tripping myself up. Because that’s how you tell a liar. Eventually they’ll contradict their ‘story’.

      Just a tip. Keep looking.

    67. Jai — on 13th November, 2009 at 7:44 am  

      It’s interesting; although I’m surprised that despite your obvious efforts, you haven’t been able to produce a killer piece of evidence. Conjecture isn’t evidence.

      What a hard time I must be having, not tripping myself up. Because that’s how you tell a liar. Eventually they’ll contradict their ‘story’.

      “Reza”, your similarity to the much-missed Iraqi propaganda mouthpiece known as “Comical Ali” continues to be confirmed with every statement you make along these lines. I'm sure you know who I'm talking about — the global figure of ridicule who eventually kept trying to surrender to American forces but found that the latter weren't interested because they thought he was so unimportant.

      Or, to translate from a north Indian proverb: You're the guy who defiantly insists he's still standing up even when he's tripped over and is lying sprawled on the ground in front of everyone.

      I'm sure you'll manage to convince yourself that your delusions are reality if you keep repeating them often enough, even if you don't convince anyone else. One of the problems with the 'Big Lie' technique is that the rest of the world can simply read your quotes and identify the repeated contradictions and propaganda themselves, regardless of how much you may protest that you're “still standing up”.

      Just make sure that you don't have an audience when you get back up off the pavement and dust yourself off. You wouldn't want anyone to think you were dishonest or, God forbid, were suffering from any identifiable personality disorders.

    68. Reza — on 13th November, 2009 at 7:58 am  

      What a scary world you live in Jai, full of conspiracy, intrigue, and secret machinations.

    69. Jai — on 13th November, 2009 at 8:25 am  

      …..says the person who makes hallucinatory statements such as the following:

      Moreover, in people like Sunny, I sense a resentment, even hatred of the ‘indigenous’ peoples, culture and history of this country. They appear to care little for the ‘common good’.

      I’m presenting an analysis of the mindset of some second and third generation immigrants hailing from the Indian Subcontinent, Africa and the Middle East. The mindset that results in a resentment and envy of indigenous British people, their history, culture and values and the desire to change, undermine and and even destroy them.

      So that’s your answer isn’t it? Race replacement. Only when the indigenous British become a minority can your bitter, revenge-motivated Utopia come to pass. Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from. For all the sins of ‘whitey’. You’ll get even.

      “Psychological projection” is an identifiable clinical psychiatric disorder, “Reza”.

    70. Ravi Naik — on 13th November, 2009 at 9:05 am  

      For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from. For all the sins of ‘whitey’. You’ll get even.

      Jai and Persephone beat you, Reza. There is no way in hell that you are Iranian, and everything you have said has been a lie.

      Let's stop this charade. You are using the exact language you find in white supremacist forums, and you are completely ignorant about Iran, India or any place outside Britain.

    71. Reza — on 13th November, 2009 at 9:12 am  

      And your point?

      Are you saying that you’re so fond of the ‘indigenous’ people of this country, their shared history going back centuries, their culture and values that you wish to replace their shared identity with ‘multiculturalism’?

      And you wish elevate your recent, alien minority culture and religion, and all other alien minority cultures and religions, to being equivalent to those of the ‘indigenous’ majority?

      And when that majority say, “Do you know what, we quite like our own culture. We don’t want it replaced with multiculturalism. And while we’re about it, we’re pretty pissed off with mass immigration. We’d like it to stop,” you respond by accusing them, of ‘racism’.

      That has to take a degree of hatred.

      What else could it be?

    72. Reza — on 13th November, 2009 at 9:16 am  

      Sorry you believe that Ravi. You're mistaken.

    73. Jai — on 13th November, 2009 at 9:42 am  

      Ravi,

      You are using the exact language you find in white supremacist forums, and you are completely ignorant about Iran, India or any place outside Britain, because your description of these countries are the same caricatures you find in wingnut sites.

      Exactly. He's even using recognisable terms like “alien minority culture and religion”. Add those to the list.

      As I said earlier, the problem with 'racist Tourettes' is that the person afflicted with it can't stop their true attitudes from eventually surfacing, regardless of how much they may try to hide it.

      Another recent example, of course, was a certain person going on Question Time to show the world how “moderate”, “reasonable”, and “reformed” they were……and then laughing at the Holocaust, revealing themselves as an apologist for the KKK, and when everything blew up in his face, making ridiculous comments the next day about “lynch mobs” (with no awareness of irony) and London “no longer being a British city”, referring to the capital as a place which has been “ethnically cleansed of English and British people” and where there are “not many English people left there”……even though, in reality, London is 70% white.

      “Reza's” posts are similarly infested with views where he's been unable to stop himself from letting the cat out of the bag.

      The level of hatred and bigotry involved always causes the mask to slip off. Always.

    74. Shamit — on 13th November, 2009 at 10:16 am  

      Reza
      “I’m presenting an analysis of the mindset of some second and third generation immigrants hailing from the Indian Subcontinent, Africa and the Middle East.”

      Second and third generation cannot be immigrants - we were born here. Only the BNP refuses to accept that — once again you are using language which BNP uses. Now do you see why most of us think you are a BNP troll.

      “you’re so fond of the ‘indigenous’ people of this country, their shared history going back centuries,”

      Again BNP language and not much understanding of the history of the UK. it has been only 300 years since Scotland and England & Wales became the United Kingdom.

      Similarly, South asian soldiers have been fighting for the crown for centuries too you idiot.

      Moreover, as I said, Jai does not need lecture on his own country from you, a proclaimed immigrant. Jai is no migrant — he belongs here.

      And no one here proposes supplanting the secular state and Sunny (the one you have been attacking) has been one to argue against State Run Multiculturalism. What is the indigenous culture you talking about?

      We like the multicultural and diverse society - and this is our country and most people in this country agree with that. You are right when you say that most people in this country are concerned about immigration but no one wants to transform the multicultural society we have. And you realise you stupid nutter, there is a very small percentage of ethnic minority in this country —

      I am a British citizen by birth and guess in my country I am allowed to practice my religion with favour or fear and I do so -

      Could you give us some examples of where perse, jai, ravi, sunny or myself or anyone for that matter has ever suggested supplanting the indigenous culture or have a Shariah State or a Hindu or A Skih state.

      Stop using the BNP phraseology unless you wanna be treated like colin brown.

    75. Fojee Punjabi — on 13th November, 2009 at 10:44 am  

      Hate to sound like a busy body but you guys are turning this into a personal mud-slinging competition when we're supposed to be discussing the original point of an attack on Muslims by gangs of youths.

      Why can't you guys just accept you have differing ideologies and argue the affairs at hand?

      Or are you all too wrapped up and consumed by your egos to let it go?

      Oh, and Shamit: ehmi tu harvele ponki jandaya. Moo tera bandh rakhi, bhandar-jya.
      You aren't intelligent enough to play verbal fisticuffs with me, 'k, Pumpkin?

      There's a good boy ;)

    76. Ravi Naik — on 13th November, 2009 at 11:24 am  

      So that’s your answer isn’t it? Race replacement. Only when the indigenous British become a minority can your bitter, revenge-motivated Utopia come to pass. Then you’ll get even. For colonialism. For the fact that the culture and values of your parents or grandparents weren’t the ones that created this advanced society. For the fact that this country is a far better place to live than the backward sh*t-holes most of your ancestors hail from. For all the sins of ‘whitey’. You’ll get even.

      Reza, you have shown to be a certified imbecile.

      Let me get this straight: you are concerned about the plight of the indigenous and accuse us of wanting to make the indigenous a minority (the exact language that paranoid BNP racists use), and yet you tell us you are living in this country, you married an “indigenous”, and have two non-indigenous children living here (according to you, your children cannot be classified as indigenous because they are mixed). So, you are either an idiot if you are telling the truth, or an idiot for being so clumsy at making up a story that completely undermines you.

      Oh, and by the way, the “sins of whitey” is a running theme in many white supremacist forums, where they portray non-whites as consumed with anger against “whitey” (that's how they think non-whites refer to whites), that they conspire to destroy the Aryan race, similar to the ZOG conspiracy.

    77. Shamit — on 13th November, 2009 at 11:45 am  

      Fojee—

      The personal attacks were started and BNP shit was bandied around - and I have been on this blog for a while - and here we do not like a particular religion or race being castigated because of individual delusions.

      Most religions have been manipulated by demagogues and “true” believers to do evil - but by and large, most people view religion in context of the times we live in and are pragmatic individuals. There are a lot of phrases and verses in the old testament that makes me shudder to think how could a loving God want that. But we do not go about castigating Jews and Christians for that.

      Therefore targeting Islam the faith is just ludicrous and paranoia - I am not willing to buy into that. Anyone who views any faith through paranoia and worse tries to establish those views on this blog - I would protest and so would people who believe it is not the faith but the people who do this.

      We have stood up similarly to idiots who tried to argue for a sharia state or try to put down other faiths by calling people kafirs and we have won arguments with BNP idiots.

      While I would agree with you that some words are poorly chosen and some sentiments expressed are driven by ego - that does not change the fact that attacking a religion in its entirety and condeming all those who practice it is wrong and unacceptable. And every person with any sense of fairness would see that - and those who wouldn't are either bigoted or delusional.

      In this scenario, what is even more scary is tha fact it is coming apparently from an Iranian as well as a Punjabi. It seems to be driven by the concept that it does not apply to me. — this applies to other people.

      Now, someone with superior intelligence (as you claim) you would understand letting this bigotry go unchallenged harms the entire fabric of our society and nation. So the whole bizzare situation made me question your identity?

      I am sure you would agree it was a logical conclusion to question your identity - after all you are far more intelligent than I am.

    78. damon — on 13th November, 2009 at 4:51 pm  

      London may be 70% white like Jai says (after what Griffin said about it on QT), but people like that (and maybe Reza too), are going on figures given by the likes of this BBC London news report, which break the figures down a bit more, and in this case talk about the numbers of ethnic minority primary school pupils in the inner London boroughs.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V3GxgFpQEg
      And are perhaps aware of the whole ''getting your kids into a good school'' thing which goes on, leading to middle class flight, people going private, and other schools being the ones other families want to avoid sending their children to - and that race (and disadvantage) plays a roll in this. As Diane Abbot well knows.

      When using google just now, this article from the Times was one that came up straight away. Maybe it's all BS, but it's from 2004, and I feel these arguments haven't been dealt with thoroughly by anti-racists over this time.
      Calling people who raise them 'Nazi's' and racists is one way of answering them I suppose, but I've never been satisfied with that response myself.

    79. Dalbir — on 14th November, 2009 at 3:30 am  

      Damon

      Speaking as someone who worked as a teacher. The WWC perform terribly in education. They were doing this long before the dreaded ethnics got here. What point are you trying to make in your last post?

      Fojee: Tu gorayaan da chumcha na bunh mundeya.

      Anyway, I wonder if I was at that uni or just passing by, would I have been attacked because I am brown?

    80. damon — on 14th November, 2009 at 7:21 am  

      The point I was trying to make Dalbir is that you can never argue someone like Reza away from his opinion that mass immigration from poorer countries is a bad thing for the host society, as they have so much ''ammunition'' to back up their already existing point of view.
      So that youtube clip I linked to in my last post will confirm somebody's view if they think it has been bad for society. It looks at rates of minority ethnic children in London's primary schools (which is the future) and shows that minorities can become a majority in a bourough quite quickly.
      That's no problem in my book, but clearly there are particular problems of poverty in some bouroughs, and the poorest places seem to be those with the highest rates of BME populations. (Not all of course, some parts of the BME population have become very middle class).
      To get to the bottom of some of this, questions (for example) as to why Diane Abbot didn't want her son to go to a local comprehensive would have to be answered.
      My guess is that she thought her local schools had too many poor black children going to them, and she didn't want her son to be in that environment.

      From just looking at the school kids that I see in the mornings and evenings driving through south London, there are many parents who must be making similar decisions as some schools (even in places like Crystal Palace) seem to be disproportunatly made up of black students, and others down the road have a different demographic. (Some of them are private schools and you can tell just by looking, which is the private school and which is the comprehensive.)

      This is the Times article from 2004 that I forgot to add in my last post.
      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/column...

      My point is, that when someone like Reza has 'facts' like that at hand, you're never going to win any argument with them.
      To me the debate isn't black and white (so to speak), it's really complex, and I have been disappointed in how the left has often dealt with the issue.

    81. Reza — on 14th November, 2009 at 7:38 am  

      Damon

      “My point is, that when someone like Reza has 'facts' like that at hand, you're never going to win any argument with them. “

      Since when has “winning an argument” been important to the left?

      Much easier to try to discredit the arguer.

    82. Fojee Punjabi — on 14th November, 2009 at 7:40 am  

      LOL Leh main ta Fojee Punjabiya, mundeyo- jado Khalsa gajda… saariyan nu pata veh hun usi age… ;)

      Anyhoo, I don't think you would be.

      Reason being that what I'm seeing on the streets of London is that various gangs who aren't influenced by Muslims are uniting to fight the spread of radical Islam.

      You might think I'm talking sh1t but put simply, there are many Muslic clerics in British prisons and in the prison system it appears that after years of intimidation by cliques of Muslim criminals the top gangsters are becoming anxious about the ties that Muslim street gangs and organised mob bosses have with terrorism- particularly so in Somalia and Pakistan- and thus orders are being sent from within British prisons from inmates to their peers on the outside and a war cry of sorts has been sounded for criminals of all creed and caste to unite in ridding this country of the aforementioned countrymen.

      These Muslims have created the very beast they are now fighting against to survive… c'est la vie…

      All this is simple my humble opinion, of course..

    83. Fojee Rajpuri — on 14th November, 2009 at 7:52 am  

      The point I was trying to make Dalbir is that you can never argue someone like Reza away from his opinion that mass immigration from poorer countries is a bad thing for the host society, as they have so much ''ammunition'' to back up their already existing point of view.

      You sound like you're trying to convince yourself here, Son…

      My point is, that when someone like Reza has 'facts' like that at hand, you're never going to win any argument with them.

      So… Reza gives you factual evidence to validate his arguments… your problem with this is… ?

      You're deluded, mate. Sit down and shut up.

      Please!

      Oh and it's not about “winning” any arguments- you feel the need to win because you're scared that other people are more intelligent than you, you Simple Simon ass son-of-a-gun so please shut up.

    84. damon — on 14th November, 2009 at 9:20 am  

      Reza, please don't think that what I said in my last post was personal. It's not.
      My disagreement with you is more ideological. We're talking about the same things here, but it's a case of does one see the glass being half empty or half full?
      I have to see it the opposite way you do, otherwise it would undermine my core beliefs.
      That is a (perhaps naive) view that the future will be a rounding out of these cultural differences and for us to make a new society of an intergrated (conglomerate?) people that will be as different from where we find ourselves now, as to where we are now from where we were the beginning of the 20th century.

      But I'm not going to be so daft as to try to sweep the problems that will arise under the carpet.
      I do think that this whole thing is an experiment, and the outcome is not guaranteed.
      Particularly not in the capatilist world we have.

    85. Fojee Punjabi — on 14th November, 2009 at 10:41 am  

      damon:

      You have too big an ego if you refuse to accept that somebody with an opposing view has merit: try stopping the whole cutting off your nose to spite your own face act, yeah?

      The outcome of this experiment of multiculturalism has led to acts of terror.

      Remember: Some men just want to see the world burn.

    86. damon — on 14th November, 2009 at 11:24 am  

      Fojee Punjabi, I wont take you seriously untill you stop with this ''dhimmi watch'' kind of nonsense, and have a wider opinion on things (for example) like this from the late 70's.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9hfsG-9bAs

      It's not a game of trying to be more clever.

    87. Dalbir — on 14th November, 2009 at 2:46 pm  

      The outcome of this experiment of multiculturalism has led to acts of terror.

      The statement is so simplistic it is breath taking. Why not blame pseudo-imperialistic foreign policy for stimulating terrorism?

      Whenever you see one of those Islamist martyr videos, why are they ALWAYS citing the actions of the targetted goverments abroad as their justification?

      Fojee upna dimaak thora bota use kareya karh!

    88. Fojee Punjabi — on 14th November, 2009 at 3:04 pm  

      damon:

      I'm sorry I damaged your ego, Babes.

      And I think what you mean to say is: “I won't take you seriously until you agree with me”.

      No?

      Dalbir:

      It's just what I see on the streets is all I am saying.

      N.B. Whenever you see me write anything it is not undisputed fact but merely my own take on the issue so I admit that, on occassions, I might well be wrong. However, from my own experiences all that has happened to Britain as a result of Labour's policy of opening the floodgates to migrants from across the world is that they've allowed a melting pot to boil over and it is vented through, for example, the 'ghettoisation' of certain parts of the country where you have anyone who isn't of a certain religion feel unsafe when merely merrily going about their business.

      Just ask the white folk who live in Bradford or Sheffield how they feel about the local Pakistani community or the Muslims in Kent how they feel about their white neighbours.

      Point is this: I personally think that you can only take multiculturalism so far until you begin to tear apart the very fabric of the tolerant society you were trying to create.

      But ignore me… I'm just a divvy 21 year old Nazi…

    89. dalbir — on 14th November, 2009 at 4:42 pm  

      Foj

      You fail to acknowledge the fact that aggression and hatred was here when migrant numbers were quite low compared to today. Go ask some clued up older people about what used to happend in the 70s/80s. So maybe you are a bit “divvy” as you put it. Anyway, I live in a predominantly 'Asian' area and although some whites do the old 'p*ki, p*ki' bit at home and in the pub, they seem fine to me. Thing is, masses of the English are only really happy when they are miserable about the state of things. They have a tendency to blame immigrants for all their woes. You only have to look at the media to see how obsessed they are with depressing bad news to see this is a part of the national character.

      I think the nazis got slapped about back in the day and are just exploiting the recent global Islamist movement to try and drag the UK back to its savage angry past. This place was known as a savage barbaric backwater in Roman times. I think lumpen sections of Brits want that reputation back again. lol

      Anyway, what are you, some sort of token spokesman for whites?

    90. Fojee Punjabi — on 15th November, 2009 at 1:23 am  

      Dalbir:

      That's the thing: did you once see me deny that things were bad when immigration from the West Indies, Africa and the sub-continent first arose?

      No!!!

      STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!

      Again: stop assuming things.

      Why do you think I'm a token spokesman for white people?

      I'm a spokesman for me, myself and I.

      I thought you were cool, dude, but you're obviously just as arrogant and stubborn as Mr Hundal.

      Forshame.

    91. Dalbir — on 15th November, 2009 at 2:24 am  

      No Fojee

      It just disturbs me that some Sikhs are echoing BNP type nonsense. Like you. Your statements did suggest that all was fine and dandy until immigration numbers went overboard. Well no, it was pretty bad back in the days. Attacks were commonplace (like everyday), and people were murdered. It hasn't got that level again yet, but who knows what direction it will go in future?

      Back then Fojee, A LOT of Sikhs were attacked and a hell of a lot fought back against nazis on a street level (as did other 'Asians'). They would be in their late 30s onward now. Personally speaking, I've always thought that those early hostile 'anti-p*ki' days caused many Asian communities to withdraw into themselves (e.g. Pakistani and Bengali). This latter helped fundamentalism to foster and develop within the more insular communities. Who is too blame? A genuine threat existed to those who were asian. If you saw some of what happened back then, you wouldn't be surprised that hate became engendered against whites.

      The only real problem here is that too many white people have some sort of antipathy to cultures that are different to theirs and people who look different to them. This I believe is a at least partially the result of the centuries of colonial brainwashing Brits (esp. English) have been getting. Whilst some have no problem with those of foreign extraction MANY have been pretty much compelled to put up with it because of economic needs and laws that restrict them from openly attacking and abusing us (although Prince Harry and that prick from Celebrity come dancing seem to be immune to this).

      You talked of ghettoisation by ethnics, dude, have you not seen those white scummy sink estates all over Britain? Where GCSE are rare and teenage pregnancies and Burberry caps common. Incidentally, the chances of you going to one and leaving without being abused is as slim as Kate Moss on a diet. Seeing as many white working class people make their areas 'no go' for ethnics, why make noise when say Pakistanis do it?

      I tell you the real issue at the heart of the matter here is that sections of the Muslim community have remain loyal to their core religious beliefs and refuse to compromise. This makes them strong and people resent it. Yes, I know that there is predatory and intimidatory tactics employed by some small groups against others. But supporting BNPesque type ideology is no way to combat that.

      Bottom line is that a lot of the problems of this country isn't down to migrants but stupid attitudes on part of the hosts. This especially applies to the so called 'terrorism' issue. Ehna nay kinnay desh wich ja kay kushmaan haramiaan kittian!? Kee tenu putha naye?

      For the record, you yourself seem to be quite arrogant and stubborn, seeing as you are throwing that accusation around so freely. If you want to debate that's good, but making accusations like that when someone disagrees with what seems to me to be poorly conceived ideas isn't cool dude. We have enough hate filled white people out there saying what your saying, don't join them. Get ready to fight them, like people before you did.

    92. Fojee Punjabi — on 16th November, 2009 at 10:40 am  

      Dalbir:

      Again there you go putting words into my mouth- did I ever say things were better then than they are now?

      NO!

      So shut the f@ck up!

      Those Pakistani and Bangladeshi types didn't recede into societal hibernation because of racism but because they do not inherently think that 'kaffirs' are as worthy of their compatriotism as their fellow Muslim brothers and sisters- which is fine… until they start turning some sections of some British cities into Muslim ghettoes (see Bradford or parts of east London for example) where non-Muslims are made to feel intimidated by Muslim gangs and overtures of superiority from the Muslim communities that surround and envelop them.

      The reason I make a noise about Muslims making parts of Bradford into Bradistan is because THIS IS ENGLAND! IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO STAY HERE- F@CK OFF BACK TO PAKISTAN IF YOU WANT TO LIVE LIKE PAKISTANIS.

      DO YOU NOW GET MY POINT YOU DUMB F@CK?!

      I DO NOT support the British National Party so stop f@cking accusing me of being a member of the BNP because you're not intelligent enough to stand up to me in a bout of verbal fisticuffs, you ignorant little sh1t.

      And no, I will not fight anyone: see, the beauty of democracy is that I can say what I want (within reason) and not be killed because I happen to disagree with you… as might happen if I lived in, say, Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran or Saudi Arabia or the UAE or Sudan or Somalia or… are you seeing the pattern yet, Genius?

      Now you've really pissed me off with your stupidity.

      When people like you have the right to vote it's little wonder why this country is facing such huge problems, pal!

      *Itches ever growing dhaari*

      P.S. SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP, KID!

    93. Dalbir — on 16th November, 2009 at 11:27 am  

      Is that what passes for rational debate in your house Fojee? lol

      I take it you are one of those giddarh pendus who are absolutely terrified of Muslims. Grow some tuttay and then come back. If white people aren't moaning about one thing, it's another. Why is the country in the state it's in? Do the masses of useless, underachieving white chavs have nothing to do with it? Who has the highest rate of teenage pregnancies in Europe? Who run riot at closing time in town centres all over the country you dick. What about gangs of white hoodies making areas unsafe for any civilised people, as in Manchester for example? What are their GCSE pass rates compared to others? Is your head up your masters arse so far that you are blind to all this? Your underdeveloped brain seems to only see things in terms of Muslim problems. Read more books or something, it will help you.

      And no, I will not fight anyone: see, the beauty of democracy is that I can say what I want (within reason) and not be killed because I happen to disagree with you… as might happen if I lived in, say, Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran or Saudi Arabia or the UAE or Sudan or Somalia or… are you seeing the pattern yet, Genius?

      Phudhaya! Go back home to Punjab and run your mouth off about the wrong thing (especially religious stuff) and see if your life wont be in danger you thick plank. What's your point dimwit? Are you saying that type of thing is unique to Muslims?

      I DO NOT support the British National Party so stop f@cking accusing me of being a member of the BNP because you're not intelligent enough to stand up to me in a bout of verbal fisticuffs, you ignorant little sh1t.

      I hate to burst your bubble but you've proved yourself incapable of any intelligent 'verbal fisticuffs' with your constant ranting. Wipe the froth off your mouth and read a wider range of literature and get out more. Stop making excuses for ignorant, racist white men you dick. By the way, the way you seem to think people are avoiding you because of your debating prowess is so delusional that it is bordering on a psychological condition, seek help.

      If you are going to respond, try doing it like a normal human next time please. Just try it.

      Here's a little gift for a misled younger brother, enjoy:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OxCCKL0B18&feat...

    94. damon — on 16th November, 2009 at 1:15 pm  

      Bloody heck Dalbir. That youtube you just linked to said this:

      ''The Sikhs particularly feel much sympathy for the Jewish community in having to endure such despicable views as the Sikh commumity has suffered oppression by the Moghuls, British and now ethnic cleansing under the Hindu majority in India.''

      That's all a bit melodramatic isn't it? It sounds like something the 21 year old Fojee Punjabi might say.

    95. Fojee Punjabi — on 16th November, 2009 at 1:58 pm  

      Dalbir:

      Your constant resort to snide comments masks your insecurities- I am not afraid of Muslims because… well, why would I be?

      True Muslims abide by the lessons the Qu'ran seeks to teach Muslims. That being to live by Sharia law which is actually rather peaceful if order is in place in Islamic societies. Though I may not agree with some aspects of it, if someone so chooses to live by the letter of Islam then good luck to them.

      Seems to me you're the one afraid of white people…

      Anyhoo, you ask who runs riot in town centres in this country.
      Do you have the memory of a goldfish? Or were you just hidden under a rock when the Bradford and Oldham riots erupted?

      Let's get this clear right now: I have nothing but respect for REAL Muslims because if you live your life according to Islamic principles then you are just a good person in any context- it's when some Muslims try to impose their way of life on others or attack those who they feel are sinful that I get pissed off.

      I really don't know what you're getting at by throwing mud at me because of what poor whites do- I never once said it was the fault of Muslims per se but rather those who choose to disenfranchise themselves when they are in 21st Century Britain… be they white, Muslims, Sikhs, Jews or whatever, the cause of the aforementioned ailments is poverty.

    96. Dalbir — on 16th November, 2009 at 2:58 pm  

      Well, you may see it as melodramatic but brutal oppression by Moghuls is a fact as is their successful defeat.

      The Brits weren't averse to hang or intern anyone resisting their occupation. What is difficult to understand about a people yearning for that beautiful thing called freedom, through self governance? Anyway, during the British raj many people who Sikhs still consider to be the jewels of the community were executed or sent over the notorious 'kala pani' to hellish conditions in which they quickly died. Sikhs had to face attempts at brutal suppression to free their places of worship (that the movement that arose from this has become a corrupt self seeking fiefdom since is another matter) . They faced Jallianwala bagh in which some twat basically let rip on an unarmed gathering killing masses. They had their homeland torn up in front of their eyes whilst the Brits quietly tip toed out of the country offering no protection against mobs. Hundreds of thousand perished. This experience is in the living memory of my family members. I think it is appropriate to describe the situation as one of oppression and subversion myself, but I guess from a Brit perspective, you'd interpret it as Sikhs having a good old time under the benign Brits. The reality is that Sikhs lost a hard fought for independent kingdom from the experience.

      As for the Hindu statement, personally I believe it is a bit too simplistic to encompass what has happened to Sikhs and Panjab since independence. Although an element of inter-religious antagonism may be a factor, in my opinion it is infinitely more complicated than a straight Sikh-Hindu narrative. That being said, approx. 3000 murdered in Delhi 25 years ago and no justice as well as Indira Gandhi's sending troops into the equivalent of the vatican, on a day when it was packed with everyday Joe pilgrims and the subsequent decade + long reign of terror in the countryside. As the ruling classes are generally Hindu in India, some people understandably blame them entirely. I am not one of them myself.

      Fojee, if I can be arsed with your post later, I may respond.

    97. Dalbir — on 16th November, 2009 at 3:01 pm  

      Fojee Dickhead

      Anyhoo, you ask who runs riot in town centres in this country.
      Do you have the memory of a goldfish? Or were you just hidden under a rock when the Bradford and Oldham riots erupted?

      Do a little research on what right wing groups were doing in those areas in the period immediately preceding those riots. You are too clueless to deal with brother.

    98. Fojee Punjabi — on 17th November, 2009 at 9:18 am  

      Dalbir:

      Stop resorting to personal attacks because you're being exposed for the intellectual lightweight that you are.

      Anyhoo, I understand that there is a high presence of BNP supporters in such areas but what pissed people off for the BNP and various parties of their ilk to gain such support from ordinary, working class white people in the first place?

      I'll tell you what happened: Muslim communities receded and refused to integrate into wider society thus fomenting an air of discontent from the white population who felt marginalised in their own country.

      As I said before- if British Muslims want to live like their brothers and sisters do in Islamic countries then fine… but don't expect other people to get pissed off when Muslim men begin grooming young white girls for sex, selling drugs and airing radical Islamist views because they're mis-guided (and if you don't believe me please refer to BBC News and Channel 4 documentaries for various reports of the aforementioned accusations)

      I'm done talking to you now because you're obviously too stubborn and immature to engage in a serious debate.

      You are the weakest link- goodbye.

    99. Dalbir — on 17th November, 2009 at 3:28 pm  

      Low IQ wallah Fojee

      Look at how Brits isolate themselves in Spain before you open your mouth. Besides, it isn't just Muslims the average BNP tutta is whining about. That is just a cover for deeper hatred for nonwhites.

      I'm not denying that grooming and whatnot is going on. But not every last Pakistani/Muslim is up to it believe it or not.

      I'm done talking to you now because …..

      Thank fuck for that, you were beginning to bore the shit out of me.

      Anyway, some parting advice. If Sikhs have a problem with another community targeting them, they must deal with it themselves. Not hide behind scum of the earth goray like a bunch of panchod bukray.

      You sir are neither a Fojee or a Panjabi but a complete fucking giddarh. Stop doing both the quoms and your own personal behzti by being an apologist for neo-nazis. Good bye to you twat.

    100. persephone — on 17th November, 2009 at 4:03 pm  

      “If Sikhs have a problem with another community targeting them, they must deal with it themselves”

      I must admit most Sikhs/Punjabis do sort out problems themselves as they are quite direct & don't get other communities involved. Plus no posturing around on blogs for them – most are too macho for that.

      Must be the military background – but being both a Fogee & a Punjabi he would know that.

      NB Dalbir, lighten up on the gaals please.

    101. Fojee Punjabi — on 18th November, 2009 at 9:27 am  

      persephone:

      Exactly.

      Also, accusation that I am neither a Fojee or a Punjabi makes me laugh because I have 6 generations of military history behind me to prove it and I myself am going to do some service in the Indian Army as I still have family members involved in the upper echelons of its command.

      Dalbir's just carrying out the typical and predictable character assassination technique because he knows he cannot possibly beat me in a debate. He's neither intelligent enough nor witty enough to engage in a real argument.

      P.S. I have an IQ of 168.

      Think about that the next time you try to get rude to me, Son.

    102. Dalbir — on 19th November, 2009 at 6:38 am  

      zzzzzzzzzzzz……………………..

    103. Fojee Punjabi — on 19th November, 2009 at 10:15 am  

      Dalbir:

      If you really have a problem with me then please do ask Sunny for my email and I'll show you how much of a Fojee I am by smashing your skull against concrete in the middle of the day on Southall Broadway.

      Do not vex me. I am not the sort of person to get on the wrong side of- believe me.

    104. Dalbir — on 19th November, 2009 at 10:11 pm  

      zzzzzzzzzz………….

    105. Binky — on 19th November, 2009 at 11:28 pm  

      I suppose some of you have seen this:

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/b...

      Well, Sikhs are obvious but will the Parsee Zoroastrians and Hindoos and ever-threatened Ahmedi heretics join in droves, too?

    106. Binky — on 19th November, 2009 at 11:31 pm  

      DALBIR -

      Off-topic perhaps, but the Brit retirees in Spain and Bulgaria DO involve themselves with local charities and charitable appeals even if the lingo is beyond most of them.

      Check out the website MY BULGARIA and the equivalent sites by and for Brit settlers in Spain if you doubt this.

    107. Dalbir — on 20th November, 2009 at 2:08 am  

      Binky, plenty of Brits live in their own bubbles abroad too. Let's not hide that fact. Besides it's not like every last Muslim avoids any mixing whatsoever with the white people of Britain in case you are trying to compare. How many Bengalis serve whites in their restaurants daily for example. What about Gujerati Muslims, what are they guilty of?

      With that Rajinder guy, it doesn't take much imagination to see how his childhood experiences are dictating his decisions today. I would imagine seeing your father hacked to death in front of your eyes as a child could have a profound effect on ones psyche. Not that I am saying his views are okay but they are at least explainable.

      Fojee. Knob. For someone who claims to be so clever, broadcasting your intention to break the law on an open a forum as the Internet speaks volumes. Sunny, please pass me his email address as he has requested.

      I don't doubt that certain sections of the Muslim community, probably mainly of Pakistani background, have been involved in quite underhand attacks on Sikhs as well as targeting naive girls for what people have accused them of. I know Sikh people will usually sweep such problems under the mat, as it represents loss of much face and perceived notions of izzat. That is why people are generally reluctant to openly admit to such problems. I know I saw loads of it when I was at uni. So I don't need Ian Blair to tell me that no evidence exists.

      BUT despite all of this…..the fact remains that jumping into bed with the BNP, even if the white community are having similar experiences, is a fool's solution. It's not rocket science.



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