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  • Using forced marriages for your own agenda


    by Sunny
    8th November, 2009 at 11:56 pm    

    Ash from MixTogether writes a typically misinformed article for Harry’s Place. It’s full of so many holes I’m surprised the editors published it. Apparently, ‘Free Choice In Marriage Will Help Prevent Extremism‘ - this is about the stupidest assertion I’ve ever heard. He argues:

    One of the 5 key objectives of the Prevent agenda is to ‘Increase the resilience of communities to violent extremism’, but discussion of marriage practices has been conspicuously absent from the implementation of Prevent.

    What? The government should also dictate to people who they should marry or not?

    Free choice in marriage is opposed in many ways, and only a few of the tactics employed to fight it are strictly illegal. Low level bullying and coercion by families is far more widespread and effective: watch Channel 4’s The Family, where a mixed caste couple have endured more than 5 years of hostility from the girl’s mother who is trying to scupper the union.

    In fact I went to an early screening of The Family and got to ask them some questions. I’m vehemently opposed to any form of caste-ism and asked this very question. They said caste was later cited as a reason once the mother had run out of other reasons… but the programme edited out parts of the history which showed the girl’s mother was generally opposed to the marriage and came up with whatever reasons she could find.

    I’ve previously done a documentary on Asian women who comes here as brides and face domestic violence. A lot of these marriages are not actually forced - which is a different issue. What Ash is doing is trying to link marriages from the sub-continent with terrorism, which is pretty laughable as an idea. Women who come here as brides need support if they face problems (many do) not condemnation and suspicion that they’re feeding into terrorism by implying their marriages are forced. I wonder what many of the clients of Karma Nirvana feel about that.

    The blog is based on this article in the Sunday Times, once again trying to pretend there’s been some massive conspiracy in Britain on immigration. It’s sad to this country’s top Sunday paper stray into frothing wingnut territory:

    Two weeks ago Andrew Neather, a former speechwriter for Tony Blair, wrote an article saying Labour had allowed immigration to rocket in order to turn Britain “truly multicultural” and “to rub the right’s noses in diversity”.

    The heart of his claim was that uncontrolled mass immigration had been a deliberate, covert policy to change the country’s demographics. But Labour’s core vote, the white working class, were drawn to the BNP at the resulting pressure on jobs, homes and schools.

    I’ve already pointed out that most of the BNP vote is NOT ex-Labour voters. But right-wingers are happy to perpetuate this lie simply to blame Labour for everything. Andrew Neather of course said nothing of the sort - but that doesn’t stop these people from repeating BNP talking points.

    This is why it’s impossible to have a reasonable discussion about immigration in the UK: right-wingers write so much rubbish about it.


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    Filed in: Race politics






    37 Comments below   |  

    Reactions: Twitter, blogs
    1. pickles

      Blog post: Using forced marriages for your own agenda http://bit.ly/4wPGwr


    2. Ashley Chisholm

      Sunny Hundal caught out suggesting that C4's The Family is manipulated for false effect: http://l.pr/a46s5/




    1. Sunny H — on 8th November, 2009 at 5:17 pm  

      Testing….

    2. douglasclark — on 8th November, 2009 at 5:21 pm  

      Sunny Hundal,

      I did not know you had such srtong bleach available.

    3. qidniz — on 8th November, 2009 at 5:46 pm  

      Does this new commenting system mean that the old comments have all gone to the great bitbucket in the sky?

    4. A.C. — on 9th November, 2009 at 12:23 am  

      What? The government should also dictate to people who they should marry or not?

      You’ve completely missed the point Sunny!

      The clue is in the title: The government COULD do more to remind young people that they have a perfect right to choose their own marriage partner.

      You know very well that some young Asian people are NOT offered that freedom at home.

      What is wrong with standing up for free choice in marriage?

    5. A.C. — on 9th November, 2009 at 12:33 am  

      They said caste was later cited as a reason once the mother had run out of other reasons… but the programme edited out parts of the history which showed the girl’s mother was generally opposed to the marriage and came up with whatever reasons she could find.

      You need to prove that assertion.

      The mum in The Family explicitly stated in her interview that the problem is that her family are Jatts and Shay’s are Ramgharias.

    6. A.C. — on 9th November, 2009 at 12:35 am  

      And you run these kind of ads on PP!

      http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CO-usq6Cr_GJiAEQrAIY7wEyCMNbQZs6-i7s

    7. Sunny — on 9th November, 2009 at 12:37 am  

      What is wrong with standing up for free choice in marriage?

      there’s nothign wrong with the govt telling the giving blow jobs to plastic dolls is a stupendously bad idea but I don’t see the govt doing that either.

      It may surprise you to know this, but a lot of Asian kids have this thing called ‘brains’. With that, many are able to assert free will and sometimes even realise that they can have free choice in marriage.

      It may further surprise you to realise that while they all want free choice in marriage, some are restricted and forced by their parents, not because they are unaware of their choices but because their parents employ a variety of tactics to force them.

      It’s a bit like the govt running a campaign to inform people the free choice they have in food.

      Asians aren’t thick, and they certainly don’t need someone so damn patronising to “help them” who doesn’t even get the dynamics behind forced marriages.

    8. A.C. — on 9th November, 2009 at 12:48 am  

      It may further surprise you to realise that while they all want free choice in marriage, some are restricted and forced by their parents, not because they are unaware of their choices but because their parents employ a variety of tactics to force them.

      Which is exactly what I have written about in the article…

      Yet forced marriage is only the tip of the iceberg. Free choice in marriage is opposed in many ways, and only a few of the tactics employed to fight it are strictly illegal. Low level bullying and coercion by families is far more widespread and effective

      The question is how to disarm the forcing tactics. I’m trying my best- what are you doing to disrupt these tactics?

    9. A.C. — on 9th November, 2009 at 12:53 am  

      Asians are thick [sic], and they certainly don’t need someone so damn patronising to “help them” who doesn’t even get the dynamics behind forced marriages.

      Who is supposed to help then? And what does your version of ‘helping’ look like? All I can see so far is yet more partisan frothing from you.

    10. Reza — on 9th November, 2009 at 12:55 am  

      “What? The government should also dictate to people who they should marry or not?”

      No they should not. However, international arranged (fetching) marriages are harmful to social cohesion. Therefore, the government should legislate to discourage these.

      It’s quite simple to do so. Simply refuse to grant residency or a British Passport to ‘fetched’ spouses. At the very least, they could create massive barriers to entry, consisting of language testing, educational requirements, the ability of the British spouse to support the fetched spouse, denial of access to welfare benefits and even the refusal to grant British citizenship to any resulting children. (I say “any” but let’s face it I could accurately have written “many”).

      The government should, as they do with other unsocial practices, have a campaign to stigmatize this type of arrangement, in particular with regard to cousin marriages that make up a significant proportion of fetching marriages.

      And these marriages ARE harmful to social cohesion and therefore are extremely antisocial:-

      “International arranged marriages are a major factor in the formation of ghettoes in Britain. Even in the second generation, a high proportion of immigrants from certain countries enter arranged marriages with spouses from their county of origin. This sets back integration by a generation. The flow of spouses and fianc(e)s from the Indian Sub Continent (ISC) doubled between 1996 and 2001. Now nearly half of ethnic Indian and three quarters of ethnic Pakistani and Bangladeshi children aged 0-4 have a mother born in her country of origin. 30% of all children born in Bradford are born to foreign mothers; in Tower Hamlets the figure is 68%. And the Pakistani population of Manchester, Birmingham and Bradford increased by about 50% between 1991 and 2001.”

      Read the whole report here:-

      http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefingPaper/document/128

    11. douglas clark — on 9th November, 2009 at 1:03 am  

      Eh!

      Dees drugs ain’t doin’ yo no good man…

      ‘Free Choice In Marriage Will Help Prevent Extremism‘

      I’d have thought that was obvious.

      or, Eh!

      Asians are thick, and they certainly don’t need someone so damn patronising to “help them” who doesn’t even get the dynamics behind forced marriages.

      I do not know what to say Sunny. Are you sayin’ half the folk here are thick?

      I’d like to assume some bastard has captured your account. In fact I am pretty sure they have….

    12. A.C. — on 9th November, 2009 at 1:05 am  

      Reza,

      The government should, as they do with other unsocial practices, have a campaign to stigmatize this type of arrangement, in particular with regard to cousin marriages that make up a significant proportion of fetching marriages.

      Well said, that is exactly the kind of POSITIVE suggestion that will move things forward.

      The government can run expensive ads to combat child obesity, smoking etc so why not stigmatise antisocial marriage practices?

    13. A.C. — on 9th November, 2009 at 1:14 am  

      douglas clark

      ‘Free Choice In Marriage Will Help Prevent Extremism‘

      I’d have thought that was obvious.

      Me too.

    14. douglas clark — on 9th November, 2009 at 1:14 am  

      Hmm…

      there’s nothign wrong with the govt telling the giving blow jobs to plastic dolls is a stupendously bad idea but I don’t see the govt doing that either.

      That isn’t Sunny Hundal.

    15. binkstein — on 8th November, 2009 at 7:19 pm  

      I'm still searching for one of these fables “fascist au pairs” from Barking or Burnley.

      In the meantime, I'll have to look here:

      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/…

      THere's a hope of finding someone from the rateater caste. That'll keep household expenses down!

    16. Clairwil — on 9th November, 2009 at 1:29 am  

      @Sunny,
      ‘It may surprise you to know this, but a lot of Asian kids have this thing called ‘brains’. With that, many are able to assert free will and sometimes even realise that they can have free choice in marriage.’

      The government also run campaigns saying that domestic violence is wrong -is this because they think all the victims of domestics violence are thick? They also frequently remind us the smoking isn’t healthy and drink driving is a scummy act. What is wrong with campaigning against rotten practice?

      I have no idea what role forced marriage and other forms of domestic terror play in fostering extremism but a household built on the suffering and oppression of the mother cannot be healthy.

    17. Sunny — on 9th November, 2009 at 1:39 am  

      Who is supposed to help then? And what does your version of ‘helping’ look like?

      Frothing? I’ve done a lot more to help than you have frankly Ashley - and I’ve spoken out against forced marriages way before I even set up this blog.

      The question is how to disarm the forcing tactics. I’m trying my best- what are you doing to disrupt these tactics?

      Really? By linking foreign marriages to terrorism? Yeah, people really are going to buy that.

      Therefore, the government should legislate to discourage these.

      What rubbish.

      douglas - type: meant to say Asians ‘aren’t’ thick.

      The government also run campaigns saying that domestic violence is wrong -is this because they think all the victims of domestics violence are thick?

      That isn’t the same. The point about an anti domestic violence campaign (which I support) would be to stigmatise DM and is aimed at culprits not the victims. I think they’re pretty aware that being abused isn’t a nice thing.

      In this case Ashley is suggesting that Asians kids aren’t aware they have free will. They do: but the focus should be on parents and stigmatising them and increasing criminal penalties (which I support, and some womens groups like SBS don’t, by the way, because they think threats of prison make children less likely to report force).

      So if you want to run a campaign against forced marriages, aim it accurately, not by suggesting Asian kids are thick because they don’t understand free will.

      Nor by suggesting that marrying someone from abroad is more likely to make you a terrorist.

      I have no idea what role forced marriage and other forms of domestic terror play in fostering extremism but a household built on the suffering and oppression of the mother cannot be healthy.

      huh? If there is DM in a family where the bride comes from abroad, the mother is more likely to be the instigator in that oppression than the victim.

    18. Sunny — on 9th November, 2009 at 1:44 am  

      I’m sure the women who come to Karma Nirvana, many as brides from South Asia, will appreciate that in addition to the hassle they already face, they will now also be treated as dangerous for harming social cohesion and fostering extremism.

      Reza you’re just a BNP nut and I call bullshit on your claim that you are an immigrant. If you are, then I’d love it if your wife, assuming she’s British born and bred, was told she was fostering extremism by marrying someone who wasn’t born in the UK. Eeedjat.

    19. Reza — on 9th November, 2009 at 2:06 am  

      I never said that international arranged marriages promote extremism. Because I don’t think they necessarily do.

      But I do believe that they promote ghettoisation and set back integration by a generation.

      I believe that a halfwit should be able to figure that one out.

      But no, not at PP.

      I must be a BNP nut who is pretending to have been born in Iran.

    20. A.C. — on 8th November, 2009 at 11:35 pm  

      Why are you the only person who has read the article as a discussion of free will?

      It is about children being granted a free CHOICE in marriage.

      Oh, and I'll thank you to use my handle which is A.C. as far as this forum is concerned, or Ash per the HP article.

    21. A.C — on 8th November, 2009 at 11:56 pm  

      Again you are the only person taking this nonsense line. Everyone else can see clearly that my article is aimed at helping the same people who use Karma Nirvana etc.

      And I call bullsh*t on your claim about editing in 'The Family': prove it!

    22. douglas_clark — on 9th November, 2009 at 12:08 am  

      Sunny,

      Are you saying you wrote this?

      there’s nothign wrong with the govt telling the giving blow jobs to plastic dolls is a stupendously bad idea but I don’t see the govt doing that either.

      Quite apart from the sentiment, it just isn't your style or spelling.

    23. Reza — on 9th November, 2009 at 2:46 am  

      Sunny supports arranged marriages. Nick Griffin supports arranged marriages. I oppose them because they harm integration and prevent assimilation.

      Yet Sunny accuses me of being BNP sympathiser. Go figure.

      We can’t stop people marrying their cousins or anyone else from their ancestral village. But we can ensure that spouses cannot be fetched here with impunity.

      Fetching marriages are a scam. They generate a lot of money for the parents of the British spouse. The parents of the fetched spouse pay extra because of the British passport their son or daughter will receive out of the arrangement. Chain migration will then ensue with the newly ‘British’ fetched spouse sponsoring their parents and other relatives to join them under the family reunification rules.

      The vast majority of British people don’t want anymore unskilled, unassimilable, third-world immigrants in this country.

    24. Reza — on 9th November, 2009 at 6:12 am  

      From Lord Ouseley’s report on the disturbances in Bradford, (“Race Relations in Bradford”)

      “It [international arranged marriage] has a major impact on population growth. About 1,000 Bradfordian Muslims marry each year. If most of those marriages were internal to this country, it would lead to 500 new households which would be likely to average 4 children per household. (This is based on experience from other immigrant groups where family size usually halves that of the first generation by the second generation.)

      With 60% of marriages involving a spouse from overseas, the number of households goes up to 800 and, with many of the spouses being first generation, family size is likely to be significantly larger. So whereas 500 internal marriages might be expected to produce 2,000 offspring, the 800 marriages are likely to produce 4,000 offspring.

      This leads to very rapid population growth. In the eighties the Council estimated that the Muslim population would reach 130,000 by 2030 and then level. Now the projection is for 130,000 by 2020 and rising. The number of separate households is predicted to rise from 16,000 now to 40,000 in 2020.

      This rate of growth concentrated in particular areas puts severe demands on the public services. It has other ramifications. Many of the children arrive at school with little or no English. Many of those who come from overseas have little education and do not possess skills which are transferable to a Western economy. The high family size means overcrowding will be a persistent problem.”

      [Sound of Sunny choking on his organic fair-trade Chai latte]

    25. billy — on 9th November, 2009 at 6:18 am  

      Ashley of MixTogether has long articulated that white people are under attack by Asian and Black people in this country. In the past he wrote some hysterical posts on Rupa Huq's blog about how the children, teenagers and old women and men attending the London music mela were all proto-racists persecuting him. In his world, all Asians are scum and evil out to persecute him — even children attending a music festival. In a previous incarnation of his blog, before he took it down, he posted stories about how after a racist incident involving a couple of Bollywood actors filming in London, and in a fit of rage he posted about how the reality is that white people are being persecuted and are the real victims of racist violence in the UK, a tag line that places him in the same category as a blogger like Tottenham Boy, who collates all the news stories about crimes commited by black men to project a picture of society being attacked by black gang rapists and criminals. Now, we know that Asians are collectively at fault for terrorism, and are all the moral equivalents of a neo-nazi party. Well done, Ashley. There is something psychotic about your neurosis.

    26. Reza — on 9th November, 2009 at 7:12 am  

      Oh billy

      You're at it again.

      Learn to attack the argument, not the man.

      Otherwise you look, well, pathetic.

      What is it with you lefties and ad hominem bitching?

      If only you had better role models on PP.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    27. Binky — on 9th November, 2009 at 8:18 am  

      Caste, eh?

      Marrying a spouse from the rateater caste would certainly keep the housekeeping bills down.

      Plus s/he would be employed with alacrity by Rentokil or Wandsworth Council.

    28. katynewton — on 9th November, 2009 at 9:36 am  

      Actually, to be honest, I agree with Sunny. Of course Asian kids know in theory that they can marry anyone they want to, but it takes a very strong sort of person to make that choice when making it means losing your family and your community. I think it's most important to target parents. But I don't think it's patronising to say that children should be made aware that choice in marriage is a good thing, because if we can't sort the problem out in this generation we need to sort it out in the next.

      “there's nothign wrong with the govt telling the giving blow jobs to plastic dolls is a stupendously bad idea but I don't see the govt doing that either.”

      I really hate it when you say stuff like that. It's so childish and unpleasant. This is a serious subject we're talking about here, and you make some good points. Please don't cheapen them with pointless yuck.

    29. A.C. — on 9th November, 2009 at 11:42 am  

      Sunny, I contacted the Channel 4 press office today and asked them whether

      caste was later cited as a reason once the mother had run out of other reasons… but the programme edited out parts of the history which showed the girl’s mother was generally opposed to the marriage and came up with whatever reasons she could find.

      The publicist for The Family was adamant that all of the participants had given editorial approval for what was broadcast. They went on to say that the interviews accurately reflected the opinions of the family members. That includes the mum who stated plainly that Shay's mum was opposed to the marriage on caste grounds.

      They rejected the idea that parts of the footage had been edited out to give a misleading impression.

      So nice try.

      I would blog about this myself, but I'm afraid you are just not worth the Google juice.

      Your negative and partisan blogging is no help to anyone. When you have one single positive suggestion on how to help empower young people to deal with their parents and marry who they choose, I'll be listening.

    30. A.C. — on 9th November, 2009 at 11:46 am  

      Katy Newton, thanks for mentioning the plastic dolls thing. I hate to even draw attantion to trash like that, but I do appreciate you picking Sunny up on it. It's a blatant abuse of his position as blog owner to write stuff like that against people who comment.

    31. Rumbold — on 9th November, 2009 at 1:24 pm  

      I don't agree about the link to terrorism. I am also skeptical about an advertising campaign (whom does it convince?). But A.C. is right- there does need to be (and Sunny is one of them) a lot more people standing up and saying that this is wrong. Too many people will criticse such practices, then say but… or else they do not mention them at all. It needs to become more socially unacceptable.

    32. A.C. — on 9th November, 2009 at 2:17 pm  

      But Rumbold what IS the way to make it more socially unacceptable?

      A poster campaign is just an idea that comes off the top of the head because it is the easiest way to get a message out. Obviously the idea could do with development, but the basic idea is what people are thinking about- how to convey the message.

      When do you see ANY Asian media outlet stand up consistently and promote that message? Even though from top to bottom they all know what the problems are. Sunny might make the right noises occasionally, but he won't be the one to go out on a limb for this cause. What positive suggestions has he contributed on this thread? This is an attack thread.

      If he's so serious why doesn't he collaborate and write something with me that he approves of, instead of always trying to pull me down.

    33. persephone — on 9th November, 2009 at 3:18 pm  

      From watching The Family, I thought the mother was against the marriage due to the age difference but more so because her daughter was more educated than the husband

    34. Rumbold — on 10th November, 2009 at 2:44 am  

      A.C.:

      I think that is the key- convincing prominent British Asians and Asian media networks to talk about, and condemn, the problem a lot more. I would focus any poster camapign on the information and help available to victims, and potential punishments.

    35. Abdul Abulbul Emir — on 10th November, 2009 at 3:57 am  

      Mrs A says.

      Look here Abdul. I came to this country as a 14 year old child bride to marry you and let me say I haven't done too badly what with child benefits , the NHS, education for the kiddies and all - not to mention all the Daily Mail outlets in town.

      I think Mr Sunny is quite right to say this forced marriage thingummy jimbob is a red herring got up by the Murdoch press. With our Daily Mails we can fight such lies.

      Peace be upon me.

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