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  • Blasts in Mumbai


    by Sunny
    12th July, 2006 at 12:03 am    

    Terror struck Mumbai’s lifeline seven times in 11 minutes when the first-class compartments of local trains to the city’s western suburbs were ripped apart by powerful blasts. At least 150 people were killed and over 600 injured.

    The blasts came just hours after suspected Lashkar-e-Toiba militants killed eight people, six of them tourists, in a series of grenade attacks in Srinagar.
    [Indian Express]

    Channel 4 and BBC have video and pictures. DesiPundit has lots of links, as does Neha at GlobalVoices. The Indian PM has called for calm; Mumbai’s minorities fear reprisals; Pakistan’s Musharraf and Aziz have condemned blasts. Even LeT have denied a hand.

    If anyone needs a BBC trained journalist from Mumbai, get in touch with her. I also have her mobile number. Anyone know if PP commenter Vikrant is ok? I was out most of the day so couldn’t post earlier.

    Update 1: Mumbai Help blog has contact numbers and more information on the blasts.

    Astra asks a good question:

    Now, I remember when I was in London during the attack there was an instant reaction - even Google had a black ribbon on its main search page and when you clicked on it there was a way to get in touch with people around the world and let them know you were okay. Nothing like that for this event.

    I don’t think I need to say anything else, you all know where I’m going with this… so I’ll just leave you with one question regarding the lack of any such reaction today:
    Why not??

    Good question.

    Blogs: UltraBrown (warning: graphic pictures) and Sepia Mutiny have lots of coverage and discussion too.

    News: Google News and News Now feeds (cheers Leon).


                  Post to del.icio.us


    Filed in: India






    95 Comments below   |  

    Reactions: Twitter, blogs


    1. Nyrone — on 12th July, 2006 at 12:28 am  

      I was in Mumbai just a few weeks ago and distinctly remember thinking about the kind of carnage that a bomb could unleash in the grossly over-populated and totally under-developed train stations there.

      I’m sad to think about what it was like a few hours ago there when the bombs exploded and the mayhem ensured. All that I do know is that these are already some of the most desperate and tragic people, in the worst of circumstances and an attack on people like this is the absolute epitome of an act of utter cowardice.

      I’m now looking to the various reports that seem to indicate it took the goverment hours to respond to this emergency, and it’s still doing a rubbish job of getting the wounded to hospitals now… Why does this not suprise me? With the ridiculous wealth disparity of this country, the police probably check if you are wearing a suit before deciding to put you in an ambulance or simply chuck you into the ‘walk yourself’ line.

      RIP Victims and sympathies to the wounded individuals and their families.

    2. xyz — on 12th July, 2006 at 12:43 am  

      [With the ridiculous wealth disparity of this country, the police probably check if you are wearing a suit before deciding to put you in an ambulance or simply chuck you into the ‘walk yourself’ line.]

      From some of the reports I’ve read, police were helping transport individuals to hospital in their vans. So I don’t think it’s fair to make a blanket statement about the government’s ineptitude (and I’m sure some of it was inept). What was heartening was reading all the stories of ordinary people, rich and poor alike, no matter what religion, caste or creed, helping one another.

    3. 13point1 — on 12th July, 2006 at 1:22 am  

      Nyrone,
      Actually most victims belong to middle class. The target was first class bogeys. Where mostly more affuluent people travel. Even those with cars at their disposal as travelling by train is faster.

    4. Leon — on 12th July, 2006 at 1:42 am  

      NewsNow feed

      Google News

    5. Sunny — on 12th July, 2006 at 1:52 am  

      I wonder if the Shiv Sena will use this as political capital.

    6. Vladimir — on 12th July, 2006 at 1:58 am  

      Shiv Sena may but it also seems that other political parties are trying to use this as political capital too! Was listening to the BBC AN, where Shatrughan Sinha made his comments
      .

    7. xyz — on 12th July, 2006 at 2:04 am  

      Every single political party in India is making capital out of this, as is standard in most any country. When the current government was in opposition, it made political capital from terrorist attacks. The communists, leftists, rightists, centrists and all other -ists have all issued statements critical of one thing or the other. Everyone who has an agenda of whatever stripe or political or religious hue will try to make capital out of this.

    8. Vladimir — on 12th July, 2006 at 2:23 am  

      I dislike these attempts at political gain, surely they can wait, thus respecting the people who have died and their families. With 7/7 there wasn’t an attempt made for political gain straight away, unlike the current comments that are standing out.

      If anything such comments seem to be taunting the Government and the Police to do the wrong thing, instead of taking a step back from the incident and taking the cautious and appropriate approach, which surely now is important.

      We all know what can happen e.g Jean Charles DE Menezes and even the tensions that came about after the attack on the Indian Parliament at the LOC. It would be a big mistake if similar events were to follow on from this incident.

    9. Nusrat — on 12th July, 2006 at 3:11 am  

      I hope the Indian Govt grows some and crosses the CFL.
      Until they do so, Indians will continue to die at the hands of Islamic [my guess] Terrorists.

    10. Vikrant Singh — on 12th July, 2006 at 5:57 am  

      in British Council atm, i’m pretty fine here Sunny. Thanks.. really touched by yer concern!

    11. Katy Newton — on 12th July, 2006 at 8:25 am  

      The Times has this on the front page. I think the Daily Mail has it on page 8 or something. Apparently the demise of the Homeseller Pack is today’s real story.

    12. Vikrant Singh — on 12th July, 2006 at 8:47 am  

      When did Daily Bile care for the wogs?

    13. Katy Newton — on 12th July, 2006 at 8:51 am  

      It is a disgrace.

    14. Leon — on 12th July, 2006 at 11:05 am  

      CiF piece about the bombings

    15. Fred Bloggs — on 12th July, 2006 at 11:17 am  

      I blame Bush and Blair.

      If they had not invaded Iraq, this would never have happened.

    16. Pocahontas — on 12th July, 2006 at 11:44 am  

      Well the 1993 bombs were before the Iraq invasion.

      Has someone claimed responsibilty yet? Are we expecting a new Bin Laden tape?

    17. Leon — on 12th July, 2006 at 12:14 pm  

      Didn’t the tape released last week (with bits of one of the London bombers in it) mention more attacks etc?

    18. bananabrain — on 12th July, 2006 at 12:23 pm  

      terrible, terrible. nobody is safe from these bastards. my thoughts are with you all and i hope my own friends are safe.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    19. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 12th July, 2006 at 12:43 pm  

      Fred Bloggs, I agree with you completely. Surely everyone can see this is the fault of the foreign policy? If only India give up on this corrupt “demockary” thing, rolled on its back and submitted to Islam they would stop being attacked.

      The same goes for Southern Thailand and Britain. While these countries refuse to be ruled by megalomaniacs that honestly believe that god put them on the earth to rule over the rest of us, psychotic friends of these megalomaniacs these will continue to attack us.

      Its about time we tore out the bits of the Q’uran that these people use to justify these actions.

      Damn, this religiously justified terrorism makes me cross.

      TFI

    20. Nush — on 12th July, 2006 at 12:45 pm  

      Not my usual light and bright forward but poignant nevertheless. London was just as strong and we got back on the tubes, and trains on the 8th July.
      The people of Mumbai are in our thoughts.

      Nush

      *****

      Dear Terrorist,

      Even if you are not reading this we don’t care. Time and again you tried to disturb us and disrupt our life - killing innocent civilians by planting bombs in trains, buses and cars. You have tried hard to bring death and destruction, cause panic and fear and create communal disharmony but every time you were disgustingly unsuccessful. Do you know how we pass our life in Mumbai? How much it takes for us to earn that single rupee? If you wanted to give us a shock then we are sorry to say that you failed miserably in your ulterior motives. Better look elsewhere, not here.

      We are not Hindus and Muslims or Gujaratis and Marathi’s or Punjabis and Bengali’s. Nor do we distinguish ourselves as owners or workers, govt. employees or private employees. WE ARE MUMBAIKERS (Bombay-ites, if you like). We will not allow you to disrupt our life like this. On the last few occasions when you struck (including the 7 deadly blasts in a single day killing over 250 people and injuring 500+ in 1993), we went to work next day in full strength. This time we cleared everything within a few hours and were back to normal - the vendors placing their next order, businessmen finalizing the next deals and the office workers rushing to catch the next train. (Yes the same train you targeted)

      Fathom this: Within 3 hours of the blasts, long queues of blood donating volunteers were seen outside various hospital, where most of the injured were admitted. By 12 midnight, the hospital had to issue a notification that blood banks were full and they didn’t require any more blood. The next day, attendance at schools and office was close to 100%, trains & buses were packed to the brim, the crowds were back.
      The city has simply dusted itself off and moved one - perhaps with greater vigour.

      We are Mumbaikers and we live like brothers in times like this. So, do not dare to threaten us with your crackers. The spirit of Mumbai is very strong and can not be harmed.

      Please forward this to others. U never know, by chance it may come to hands of a terrorist in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iraq and he can then read this message which is specially meant for him!!!

      With Love,
      From the people of Mumbai (Bombay)

    21. Dinesh Patel — on 12th July, 2006 at 12:46 pm  

      I blame America and the war on Iraq and Afganistan and the palestine issue.

      I also blame the Goverment for not doing enough to help the people and their response times.

      I also blame the political parties for trying using this as an opportunity.

      We need to look at the cause of this terrorism. The indian goverment has obvioulsy neglected these people and not listened to their voices and this is the result…

      blar blar blar

    22. Nush — on 12th July, 2006 at 12:59 pm  

      As for the post above I sent

      I got to the station today to find that the metro had put the story on the 7th page! WTF 7th page, isn’t it front page news? That Al-Qaeda could have possibly done it again.

      It was too coordinated to be random groups and it hit the transport network from the finance district, again hitting the economy of India

      I am so upset.

      but hey its what I feel

      Nush

    23. Ravi Naik — on 12th July, 2006 at 1:03 pm  

      “I blame America and the war on Iraq and Afganistan and the palestine issue.”

      I agree. I should add that it’s India’s fault to have aligned with America. Why should it try to mimic a country that has been the epicenter of cientific and technological development and who has absorved different peoples and cultures - when it could be a backward islamist country, like you know, Iran or Pakistan?

      I do hope that people of Mumbai do not find scapegoats in its muslim population. A true secular and mature country will protect its minorities against hatred after an attack like this, and hopefully Mumbai will come out stronger.

    24. Kismet Hardy — on 12th July, 2006 at 1:20 pm  

      “Well the 1993 bombs were before the Iraq invasion. Has someone claimed responsibilty yet? Are we expecting a new Bin Laden tape?”

      It’s dangerous and narrow-minded to assume all Muslim bombers are in league with each other, all fighting a common cause. This lot are pissed off with India over Kashmir, thus have little to do with sticking it up Bush & Blair’s rectums.

      America wants us to see Muslims as one big team of football hooligans, but there are different leagues, different divisions, different players, different goals*. Tackle them all seperately or America will just bomb everyone again

      (*with apologies to El Cid for resorting to crap football analogies again)

    25. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 12th July, 2006 at 1:35 pm  

      Kismet Hardy, I’m shocked. A sensible on topic post.

      Well done, but please don’t make a habit of it OK?

      However it appears that these groups are becoming increasingly mobile, increasingly connected and in each location there is are Mosques preaching the warmongering passages from the Q’uran.

      They aren’t fighting a common cause together, but they are reading from the same song book and singing the same song. Their demands and the reasons given are remarkably similar.

      Every time a “moderate” Muslim states that fighting the “occupiers” is acceptable, they justify any conflict where Muslims claim ownership of the land.

      So yes, the localized reasons are subtly different, but the ideology is the same and there is WAY to much agreement about waging war against the infidel. Just some bickering about you is and isn’t’ innocent and branding those that have apposing different opinions “you aren’t a Muslim!”

      It would be quite funny if people weren’t dying.

      TFI

    26. Rakhee — on 12th July, 2006 at 1:41 pm  

      Nush - out of curiosity, what made the front page instead?

      It reminds me of the earthquake in Gujarat some years back. Hundreds and hundreds of people died but our leading national decided to run the fact that Robbie Williams had split with another trollop on the front page.

      Go figure.

      As for your letter to the terrorist, touching as it is, I would think their aim and message is not really to the public in any country (UK, US or now India). It is to the governments to remind them that terrorism is an unstoppable power which no politician has any control over. In that sense, it is job done.

    27. Nosemonkey — on 12th July, 2006 at 1:45 pm  

      Any news on reputable relief funds yet? A few had been set up within hours of the 7/7 London bombs - even if none of them were exactly efficient and many have yet to channel money through to the victims.

      Sad to say, I imagine that Israel’s decision to invade Lebanon will shunt this well and truly off the news agenda after just 24 hours. As it is, British coverage has already started to shift to “human interest”, with reports on “how British Indians have responded to the news”, rather than reporting the news itself…

    28. Kismet Hardy — on 12th July, 2006 at 1:56 pm  

      Israel is invading Lebanon?!

      Shit. The Human League were right all along

    29. Sakshi — on 12th July, 2006 at 2:03 pm  

      And the Politicians are blame-game again. Excatly what they need to push the tolerance and aggression level of the Mumbai Public which is already on the borderline.

      First the rains, then Shiv-Sena, then bombs and now them.

    30. Nush — on 12th July, 2006 at 2:07 pm  

      Raaks it was the story on the BBC bosses earning £619, 000 a year!!!

      It doesnt surprise me though as the Metro is part of the Daily Mail group? I could be wrong but someone correct me if I am.

    31. peter parker — on 12th July, 2006 at 2:36 pm  

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawood_Ibrahim

    32. sahib — on 12th July, 2006 at 2:45 pm  

      “Every time a “moderate” Muslim states that fighting the “occupiers” is acceptable, they justify any conflict where Muslims claim ownership of the land.”

      Complete bollocks - i support Palestinians and Iraqis ONE HUNDRED percent. Support those who carried out 9/11, 7/11 and the Bombay bombings ZERO percent.

    33. Don — on 12th July, 2006 at 2:49 pm  

      Mirror has ZZ’s mum as the front page. The broadsheets all lead or front page with Mumbai, none of the tabloids.

      But Israel has indeed invaded Lebanon, things seem to be unravelling fast.

    34. Don — on 12th July, 2006 at 2:51 pm  

      sahib

      Which Iraqis?

    35. peter parker — on 12th July, 2006 at 2:54 pm  

      on a sidenote… materazzi’s comment that he isn’t culturally aware enough to know what a terrorist is… is laughable.

      still no responsibility claimed.

      i’m going with Dawood I think. He’s been quiet for a few years no?

    36. sahib — on 12th July, 2006 at 2:54 pm  

      any Iraqis resisting occupation

    37. sonia — on 12th July, 2006 at 2:57 pm  

      sakshi - glad you’re okay!

    38. Kismet Hardy — on 12th July, 2006 at 3:03 pm  

      “any Iraqis resisting occupation”

      Which means not the ones that aren’t resisting occupation and includes those that bomb innocent people along the way?

      Which, if I may be a pedant, isn’t quite 100% is it?

    39. sahib — on 12th July, 2006 at 3:12 pm  

      Kismet - not sure if i followed your statement but i definitely don’t support bombing innocent Iraqis ‘along the way’. I didn’t want to get involved in a discussion about Iraq as this was originally a thread on the Bombaby bombings. But i was just responding to the Friendly Infidel. All i meant to say is that IMO, no-one has the right to sit here in the UK/US and argue that Iraqi’s should fight against coalition troops. If the Iraqi army invaded the UK i’m sure many of us would fight against them. In the same way, i don’t see any moral issue with Iraqi’s fighting occupation and i think it was a lame attempt by the Friendly Infidel to stop dissent on this issue.

    40. raz — on 12th July, 2006 at 3:14 pm  

      First of all, sympathies to all Indians. We Pakistanis share your pain. A few months ago, dozens of innocent worshipers were blown up by terrorists in Karachi. Now the people of Mumbai are living the same nightmare. Hopefully these events will bring Pakistan and India together in their joint battle against the scourge of terrorism. Both countries have suffered greatly at the hands of various bands of extremists and fanatics. What all this terror has in common is its indiscrimate targetting of the innocent - regardless of faith or creed. All Indians and Pakistanis must confront this barbaric menace. Karachi or Mumbai, Indian or Pakistan, Muslim or Hindu - it doesn’t matter. This evil must be stopped.

      Oh Ravi Naik - FUCK YOU

      “when it could be a backward islamist country, like you know, Iran or Pakistan?”

      You fucking wanker. Your slurs are a disgrace to the nation of India. I hope all moderate Indians on this site will condemn your idiotic comments.

    41. sonia — on 12th July, 2006 at 3:20 pm  

      all humanity must confront this issue. however its easier not to and easier to hope it goes away… until and unless you can’t because it’s your own life that’s been invaded by violence.

    42. sonia — on 12th July, 2006 at 3:21 pm  

      of course, the sad thing is when people choose to deal with these things by perpetuating the violence.

    43. Sakshi — on 12th July, 2006 at 3:26 pm  

      Sonia - Thanks.

      Lets hope this time round…people will rise beyound religious rivalries.

    44. sahib — on 12th July, 2006 at 3:27 pm  

      just noticed - typo in my post above - should read: ‘no-one has the right to sit here in the UK/US and argue that Iraqi’s should NOT fight against coalition troops.’

    45. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 12th July, 2006 at 3:40 pm  

      Complete bollocks - i support Palestinians and Iraqis ONE HUNDRED percent. Support those who carried out 9/11, 7/11 and the Bombay bombings ZERO percent.

      Sahib, you couldn’t have made my point any better so while you are struggle to justify violence and murder of innocents in Iraq and Palestine, I’ll make my point again:

      Every time a “moderate” Muslim states that fighting the “occupiers” is acceptable, they justify any conflict where Muslims claim ownership of the land.

      Other than Iraq, Palestine, this includes Southern Thailand and Kashmir*. According to Mr Bed Linin, Spain belongs to the Arabs and should be returned.

      Exactly where to we draw the line? How much land should we return to the Romans or the Greeks? I’m sure the Greeks would be delighted to find out that they inherited the (old world) Earth.

      Eventually if you take this twisted line of reasoning far enough, doesn’t all land belong to God? Could you not struggle about “occupancy” anywhere? Including in Beeston?

      TFI
      * although how people can make such a fuss about a jumper I don’t know.

    46. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 12th July, 2006 at 3:44 pm  

      sahib, have you heard the term “cycle of violence”? Can you not see how your view feed into it?

      Pour cold water on arguments, not petrol.

      TFI

    47. sahib — on 12th July, 2006 at 3:59 pm  

      TFI - i don’t have a huge amount of time to write on blogs - but will try to respond succintly. I condemn the killing of innocents. At no point have i tried to justify the killing of innocents people in Iraq or Palestine as you claimed. To be clear - IMO there is a clear difference between resisting occuping armies such as the US or the IDF, to attacks on civilians like 9/11, 7/11 and Bombay. I don’t know how i could be more clear. I support one, don’t support the other.

      Yes - have heard of cycle of violence - but i am not arguing for/against violence. All i’m saying is that people have a right to resist foreign occupiers.

    48. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 12th July, 2006 at 4:04 pm  

      All i’m saying is that people have a right to resist foreign occupiers.

      How is that not making an arguement for violence?

    49. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 12th July, 2006 at 4:09 pm  

      I prefer Ghandi and JC’s enlightened view on violence, rather than Mohammad’s.

      TFI

    50. sahib — on 12th July, 2006 at 4:16 pm  

      TFI: it is an argument for violence, but one that is justifiable. If you don’t see that, we will have to agree to disagree.

    51. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 12th July, 2006 at 4:26 pm  

      TFI: it is an argument for violence, but one that is justifiable. If you don’t see that, we will have to agree to disagree.

      Ah … justifiable violence … and yes we can agree to disagree … unless the dispute is over land, then right to kill me?

      I’m sure in Southern Thailand and in Kashmir they agree with you, the violence is justifiable.

      So let me say it again then and this time you might finally understand and agree with me:

      Every time a “moderate” Muslim states that fighting the “occupiers” is acceptable, they justify any conflict where Muslims claim ownership of the land.

      Cheers,

      TFI

    52. Neil — on 12th July, 2006 at 4:26 pm  

      Are there any reputable emergency fund websites/appeals been set up ?

      I know someone asked this earlier !

    53. Nush — on 12th July, 2006 at 4:36 pm  

      http://www.google.co.in has nothing yet and neither does our very own google.co.uk

    54. bananabrain — on 12th July, 2006 at 4:53 pm  

      yes, of course, “israel invades lebanon” - nothing about the fecking hizbollah starting it by kidnapping soldiers, of course. and i thought this was about mumbai; now who’s making political capital out of it? “damn, those bastard zionists are pushing the poor bombed mumbaikers off the front page”.

      sheeesh.

      b’shalom

      bananabrain

    55. Ravi Naik — on 12th July, 2006 at 5:13 pm  

      “You fucking wanker. Your slurs are a disgrace to the nation of India. I hope all moderate Indians on this site will condemn your idiotic comments.”

      Calm down, raz. By all means and measures, Pakistan is run by dictatorship and is a safe heaven for islamists. In that context, I don’t see how my comment can be interpreted as a slur. I do apologise if I offended you. I also consider India to be backward in many aspects, and I will not be offended if you or anyone else points that out.

      I am proud that India had the vision of creating a secular country rather than a Hindu state. This made it easier to accept and absorb all our diversity, and less prone to extremism.

      And by the way, my comments reflect my personal views, not the nation of India.

    56. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 12th July, 2006 at 5:18 pm  

      nothing about the fecking hizbollah starting it by kidnapping soldiers, of course

      It is probably this “justifiable” violence that young Muslim males like sahib, bang on about it while rejected “unjustified” violence. How do you work out if violence is justified? Well you go look in the Q’uran apparently and a bunch of beardly-weardies decide. The other 4.5 billion non-Muslims have no say and we can only look on in despair.

      As for kidnapping incident I’m sure George Galloway & Co has already forgotten the part played by Hizbollah, its all about the Jews and the Zionists, the “prophet” killers. They are a militarized society and their policy of conscription means not a single man women or child can be considered is “innocent” ..

      blar blar blar …. war war war … blar blar blar …

      “Justifiable violence” will be the death of us.

      Cheers,

      TFI

    57. Nush — on 12th July, 2006 at 5:21 pm  

      News in, over 180 people now dead, 700 people injured with numbers expected to rise.

    58. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 12th July, 2006 at 5:33 pm  

      News in, over 180 people now dead, 700 people injured with numbers expected to rise.

      … and somewhere there is bearded w*nker holding a copy the of Q’uran going “Yes! Get in! This violence is entirely justified by my little book here”.

      Same for NY,
      Same for London
      Same for Bali x 2
      Same for Madrid

      How long will this list get before we, Muslims and non-Muslims together, tear out the accursed pages from this otherwise “holy” book from which these brutal acts of inhumanity are “justified”?

      Cheers,

      TFI

    59. Nyrone — on 12th July, 2006 at 5:37 pm  

      @#2 = It’s always pleasant and heartning to hear about the stories of unity and brotherhood amongst all groups after an atrocious incident like this. However, from my experience, and please understand that it’s just my opinion…most of them are just exaggerated feel-good stories that are only ever created in the spirit of the moment and remain partially true.

      I saw the corruption there first-hand, and I know that the people who will get help first are people who have money in their pockets. I was writing out of anger for the people who will suffer in this, and who will remain nameless and possibly lifeless because of the system that prevails in India.

      @#20 = You may insist that the people of Mumbai are blood-brothers in times like these, but what about before times like these? What about day-in-day out in the wretched, decaying slums of Mumbai where people are trapped and stuck in the most vilest of circumstances and are continually exploited by any body else that’s not within their fold?

      I hate some of this chest-thumping gung-ho bravado rhetoric that seeps out in times like this. I spent days some time in the notorious red-light district of Mumbai, Kamthipura and I didn’t see anyone helping anybody. All I saw were blood suckers feeding off of each other and under-age nepali girls being exploited by the policemen who feel they have a right to these girls’s bodies by waving their ID cards around. Are these the kind of policemen that will attempt to ‘help’ injured fellow-indians now when they have been screwing over the regular people for years with their abuse of power and arrogance?

      Why is it that these hypocritical people will bond together as fellow human beings for the news cameras and yet act like destructive entities all-year round?

    60. raz — on 12th July, 2006 at 5:42 pm  

      Ravi,

      Islamic terrorists are operating in many parts of India and carrying out attacks on a regular basis. Does this mean India is also an ‘Islamist’ country? Is India a ‘safe haven’ for Islamists? Absurd. Given the strength of the BJP/Shiv Sena in India - does this make India a ‘Hinduvata’ nation? Stop generalising. Both Pakistan and India have trouble with religous elements, but neither deserve to be condemned in such sweeping terms.

      “This made it easier to accept and absorb all our diversity, and less prone to extremism”

      Nonsense. India is afflicted by AT LEAST as much extremism as Pakistan, if not more so. The thousands killed in Gujurat 2002 can attest to this. Fact is both Pakistan and India are confronted by the scourge of terrorism, be it Islamist/Hinduvata or whatever. This is a time for unity not divisiveness, which is why I take strong exception to your comments.

      I must say I have been reasonably pleased with the response of the Indian PM, who for once has not reflexively tried to blame Pakistan, but instead is appealing for calm. Hopefully a sign of things to come. The peace process between Pakistan and India must continue - terrorists must not be allowed to win.

    61. mirax — on 12th July, 2006 at 6:14 pm  

      #59 Nyrone, I hear you. While I am heartened that Mumbaikars have risen to the occasion and can easily understand the feelings that inspire articles such as Salil Tripathi’s on CIF today, this rush of solidarity and camaraderie is only too transient and it will not be long before things settle back into the more familiar pattern of callousness and corruption.

      What were you doing in the red-light district anyway?

    62. Vikrant Singh — on 12th July, 2006 at 6:45 pm  

      raz,

      i guess you will go on to blame the Indian state again.. white terrorists!

    63. Sunny — on 12th July, 2006 at 6:53 pm  

      Ravi I think your comment was out of order, and certainly an opinion I do not share. Admittedly Musharraf has not done enough to rein in the fanatics in Pakistan, but there is the small matter of human rights, even if the army (which is resolutely secular) does not care much for them.

      I don’t know who to blame… and I’m not sure we should focus on blame until someone owns up. Until then it’s probably better to reflect on the deaths. I’m going to post more on this soon in a new thread. I would prefer if this didn’t descend into an India V Pak thing.

    64. raz — on 12th July, 2006 at 7:02 pm  

      Vikrant,

      FFS grow up. I have made no insinuations of that kind in this thread.

      Sunny,

      Like I said, Pakistanis have suffered from this kind of terrorism as well, so we know what Indians are going through. Only a few months ago many innocents were slaughtered in a bomb attack in Karachi. India and Pakistan need to keep on fighting internal terrorism instead of fighting one another.

    65. Vikrant Singh — on 12th July, 2006 at 7:09 pm  

      even if the army (which is resolutely secular) does not care much for them.

      Really King Sunny? IMHO It is the army under Zia which has been responsible for Islamisation of Pakistan.

    66. Vikrant Singh — on 12th July, 2006 at 7:11 pm  

      Since my internet here is choppy, (phone lines are still jammed!) i’ll point you to Nitin: http://acorn.nationalinterest.in/?p=2009

    67. Vikrant Singh — on 12th July, 2006 at 7:12 pm  

      btw Sunny wats PP fax #? I’m planning to send an article shortly?

    68. jonz — on 12th July, 2006 at 8:16 pm  

      I’m waiting who to see how the lefties and Guardianistas in this country will blame all this on the oppression of the West, Bush & Blair.

      Surely the apologetics for terror are only round the corner… They always are. Maybe the Independent will do a front page spread on how Indian controlled Kashmir oppresses Muslims by baking bigger and cheaper bread, or something equally and understandably horrifying.

    69. Zak — on 12th July, 2006 at 8:26 pm  

      I hope whoever has done this gets punished.

    70. Sunny — on 12th July, 2006 at 8:29 pm  

      Vik - Err I don’t have a fax number?

    71. Nyrone — on 12th July, 2006 at 9:18 pm  

      @#59 Mirax = Thanks, you know it makes perfect sense for some journalists to write about heroics and bravery from a low-lit London study, comparing phrases, with their thesaurus in hand, but it’s often not true in any form at all, and I get quite frustrated coming across so much of it, because I know that when the heat and urgency of the situation dies down and the news-item in question becomes ‘just another incident’ that slips off the mainstream agenda, people will only ever re-visit the dynamics of the incident with reference to the courage and bravery of the ‘survivors’.

      Mumbai station is an urban rotten hell-hole on par with central Bangok, and it’s ‘problems’ with HIV and slums are simmering so tensely that everyone is on edge regardless of if there is a bomb or not, but the idea that Mumbaikars will all just ‘pull together’ like one big family in their hour of need is just one big fucking cruel joke. I saw a level of cut-throat ruthlessness there that I had barely experiencied anywhere before, and if anything, this incident will leave many more people desolate and open to exploitation then before, and it will make even more evident the gap between the people who matter and people who do not.

      But nobody seems to care about everyday reality there, as soon as their is an accident like this, the focus is placed on the ‘compassion’ and ‘friendship’ of the people and other feel-good shit. Look away from the horror, until it’s safe to do so, seems to be the order of the day, and I’m sick of this clearly inaccurate angle of reporting being so widespread when a story like this breaks. How much did you see in the papers about the child-kidnapping following the Tsunami? probably not many, because they were too busy concentrating mother-re-unites son ‘human interest’ stories that people wanted to hear at that time. Who wants to know the dirty dank truth? Just give us a whiff of the overall situation.

      It will never faze to suprise me just how easily truth is twisted. I used to watch commercials for skin care products in which it advertises that 97% of people interviewed agree with us that this product is great for the skin. I then realized that they were talking about 97% of THEIR audience, the people THEY roped into it, from areas THEY deliberately choose. If you give the cream to skint-broke people who have never used any skin care products, and who could never afford the product in the first place, of course you are gonna get glowing results, where as if you tested the cream with women who had been using creams for years and knew their products, they would probably tend to disagree a lot more. In this case, even facts can be partially enginered and fabricated…..just like the situation in Mumbai.

    72. Nyrone — on 12th July, 2006 at 9:36 pm  

      I was in the red light district of Mumbai (Kamathipura) on the last leg of 5-months international development work I was doing with an NGO in and around rural India.

      I choose to venture in to see for myself the hell that I had heard about for so long. I knew from experience that everything is always different and more complexed in reality than it is in a textbook, and boy was this the case here. It was a flesh fair of the likes in the most darkest of nightmares, with the conditioning and systematic break-down of nepalese girls and women to become biological robots, with the madams on hand, with the vicious pimps ruling the roost and with the customers who genuinely saw nothing wrong with the whole place. As usual, the unthinkable had become normalized.

      I won’t go into detail, but I will say that the one thing I learnt there that relates to the general situation in Mumbai, is that everybody was in on it, from the police to the gov officials that would tip NGO’s off before raids. The place was desperate and tragic in an indescribable way, and anybody that tried to interfere with the profits of the ‘bhais’ were simply gotten rid of.

      To say the least, I don’t have fond memories of central Mumbai, and seeing all these cock-and-bull stories about collective unity spilling out from eager broadcast journalists on the scene is hard to swallow, when I know that just around the corner are millions of people who are well and truly FUCKED day after day after day, where’s there story? I’ll tell you where…nowhere, because it’s just too godamn hard to report a story that turns the world’s biggest democracy into a deeply selfish segregational society, it’s too hard to report a story that accuses the top brass of the country for repeatedly failing the people it sickiningly pretends to care about when a camera is swung in their face.
      They don’t truly care.

    73. Ravi Naik — on 12th July, 2006 at 9:49 pm  

      “Ravi I think your comment was out of order, and certainly an opinion I do not share. Admittedly Musharraf has not done enough to rein in the fanatics in Pakistan, but there is the small matter of human rights, even if the army (which is resolutely secular) does not care much for them. I don’t know who to blame… “

      I want to understand the big picture and the root of the problem, Sunny. And I am sure we can all be politically correct and pretend like Pakistan and India are both in the same platform when it comes to the Islamist threat - you know in the name of good relations between both countries.

      But I don’t feel this way. Not about Kashmir, which I am ambivalent and think that perhaps it’s best if it became autonomous. Not about the Indian army, who I expect to punish its rotten elements for any war crimes commited. I am talking specifically about the Islamist problem.

      Pakistan has for years neglected this problem. How is it possible that thousands of madrassas are not registered, and the government has no account of its curriculum? Talk about neglecting the young. Is it any wonder where islamists harvest their seeds who came to play in 7/7?

      I feel that’s the root of the problem. Now, is there a way I could say that without being out of order? It would be nice to say things without having to apologise people. Being a friend also means saying things you don’t want to hear.

    74. El Cid — on 12th July, 2006 at 10:12 pm  

      Ravi,
      Your views are as legitimate as anybody else’s, but my suggestion to you would be to show a bit of decorum and to resist the temptation to make political capital out of what is clearly a tragic human situation. Now is the time to mourn, show camarederie, and pull together.
      Show a common front. The people of Pakistan have a lot more in common with you than they have with the people who placed these bombs, of that I’m sure.
      To this day I don’t really get on as well as I used to with a mate who chose the day after 7/7 to pin it all on Bliar and the Iraq war. It works both ways.

    75. Ravi4 — on 12th July, 2006 at 10:24 pm  

      Condolences and sympathies to all in Mumbai. Far as I’m concerned, definitely a time for simple human solidarity, not for making political points.

    76. Ravi Naik — on 12th July, 2006 at 10:44 pm  

      “Show a common front. The people of Pakistan have a lot more in common with you than they have with the people who placed these bombs, of that I’m sure.”

      That was totally uncalled for, El Cid. You must think that because I am Indian and I criticise Pakistan (in this case, neglecting education of it society), then what I am really saying is that Pakistanis are terrorists. Really.

      “To this day I don’t really get on as well as I used to with a mate who chose the day after 7/7 to pin it all on Bliar and the Iraq war. It works both ways.”

      People get emotional and say things in the heat of the moment. Others just have different opinions about things. None of which seem good enough reasons to ruin a friendship. So it works for some.

    77. Ravi Naik — on 12th July, 2006 at 11:12 pm  

      Y amigo, mas una cosa. I only talked once about the bombings in Mumbai (#23), and this is what I wrote: “I do hope that people of Mumbai do not find scapegoats in its muslim population. A true secular and mature country will protect its minorities against hatred after an attack like this, and hopefully Mumbai will come out stronger.”

      So much for getting capital gain out of these attrocities, or accusing Pakistanis of directing those attacks.

    78. Manasi — on 12th July, 2006 at 11:13 pm  

      It gets more difficult to pinpoint the will behind such attacks by the year. Earlier many would have pointed fingers at Islamic/separatist fundamentalists & stopped there. At this time it’s not outlandish to assume that these attacks could have been orchestrated by groups threatened by India’s steady growth as an economic power to contend with - China, maybe even the US. If “they’d” really wanted to kill people, they could have gotten more than just 200. And 1st class compartments aren’t as crowded as 2nd class. To me it looks like a smoke screen. This looks like a near-good attempt to injure infrastructure - maybe even a ‘dry run’ to see how much damage can really be done at peak rush hour in overloaded public transport.
      My comments are in no way intended to offend anyone - especially folks who’ve lost loved ones in this tragedy. I’m not saying that the death of 200 is trivial.
      I don’t live in India as of now but i’m MIGHTY pleased that this hasn’t led to an ugly communal fall-out yet.
      It’s not too early OR late for large cities to consider de-centralising critical infrastructure.

    79. Desi Italiana — on 13th July, 2006 at 3:49 am  

      Nyrone:

      “seeing all these cock-and-bull stories about collective unity spilling out from eager broadcast journalists on the scene is hard to swallow, when I know that just around the corner are millions of people who are well and truly FUCKED day after day after day, where’s there story? I’ll tell you where…nowhere, because it’s just too godamn hard to report a story that turns the world’s biggest democracy into a deeply selfish segregational society, it’s too hard to report a story that accuses the top brass of the country for repeatedly failing the people it sickiningly pretends to care about when a camera is swung in their face. They don’t truly care.”

      Nyrone, you said it.

    80. mirax — on 13th July, 2006 at 8:17 am  

      Political capital?

      Leave it to those sections of the Brit-left that still get hard-ons for fascists.

      What about Roger Howard’s moronic article in CiF? Should India Invade Britain?

      Or this from the SWP?

      Bombings in Mumbai, India 12 July 2006
      Statement from the Socialist Workers Party (Britain) on yesterday’s bomb attacks on Mumbai on 11 July 2006

      “The Indian government of Manmohan Singh will doubtless pledge itself to fight against the terrorists who have committed this atrocity with increased resolve. But if what results from this pledge is a greater threat of military conflict with Pakistan, more repression in Kashmir, and an increased willingness of the Indian state to be a partner in the “war on terror”, it would serve only to compound the tragedy of the bombings. It is exactly these actions that have meant India has become a target…”

      Alex Callinicos, International Secretary, Socialist Workers Party
      Chris Harman, editor International Socialism journal
      Chris Nineham, Central Committee, Socialist Workers Party
      Yuri Prasad, editor Socialist Review

    81. Refresh — on 13th July, 2006 at 9:59 am  

      Mirax - I really can’t see what you could possibly object to in the extract from the SWP? Disagree on politics - but what is in there that irks you?

      Just as we don’t want a rise in communalist killings, we cannot possibly want a military conflict between India and Pakistan. Or do we?

    82. Don — on 13th July, 2006 at 10:38 am  

      ‘It is exactly these actions that have meant India has become a target…’

      Don’t you feel that it is phrases of this sort which shift responsibility away from the actual killers to those deemed to have offended them?

    83. Ravi Naik — on 13th July, 2006 at 11:00 am  

      “Mirax - I really can’t see what you could possibly object to in the extract from the SWP? Disagree on politics - but what is in there that irks you?”

      At first level, we still don’t know who orchestrated the attacks and why, so it’s premature to say “exactly” why India became a target. Second, and this is what really irks me, is to say that being a willing partner in the “war of terror”, or having close ties with America, is somehow a justification to become a target. In other words, the article seems to imply that India was asking for it.

    84. Refresh — on 13th July, 2006 at 12:26 pm  

      Ravi, if you read it like that it does not surprise me that you’d be irked - but that is not what its saying.

      India has not put itself in the firing line in my thinking as far as the War on Terror is concerned. And it is dangerous to presume that people are saying that.

      Again it does not imply what you say. I read it to say that India should not be tempted or coerced into joining a ‘misguided’ strategy emanating from the Bush Whitehouse.

    85. mirax — on 13th July, 2006 at 1:16 pm  

      that is not what its saying?

      No? I read it differently and I dare say many other others who might not have the SWP blinkers would read it like it was written.

      But if you or anyone else has doubts, let’s go to Comrade Lenin’s for a closer look (though it makes me feel like I stepped into a mumbai gutter).

      ****
      Mumbai bombings. posted by lenin

      Unlike many such events, the reports from Mumbai weren’t exaggerated. If anything, they were understated - the BBC didn’t make it their top headline until the deaths were officially thought to be into three figures, while initial reports said that the number of explosions was two, then three, five, six, eventually seven. Deaths were initially assumed, but not quantified, then said to be in the low tens, then the dozens, then 130, then 180. Now it is thought that 200 have died. When the scale of atrocity was finally extraordinary enough to top the headlines (and look how strangely fast has been its relegation back into the fragmentary, chaotic, pot pourri of racist media reporting about Over There), the usual template for dealing with these things was accessed with glib facility: We Sympathise, We Stand Firm, They Hate Our Democracy, Whodunnit, Is it Al Qaeda, They Hate Our Freedom, They Hate Secularism etc etc. We will, supposing there is much more heard of this, have to hear from various hacks that Mumbai is unbeaten, and that India’s political leadership has vowed to stand firm. There was the suggestion that it might be groups fighting for independence for Kashmir, or ‘Al Qaeda’. It is certainly a tactic redolent of those used by the latter, but I don’t feel like speculating for ages only to insult you with the conclusion that “I dunno”. The Indian state would certainly like to blame Kashmiris and increase its repression there.

      ******
      He wouldn’t like to speculate who the perpetrators may be but it is a CERTAINTY though that the dastardly Indian state will use this incident to step up its oppression in kashmir.

      ******

      One thing that is very obvious is that the coverage has shown little concern with the people who live and work in Mumbai, but then it never does. Neither the Indian government nor its wealthy elite are particularly interested either. The fact that it is India’s financial capital is much noted, but nothing will be said about the slums where almost fifty per cent of the city’s population lives and the fact that the death rate there is fifty per cent higher than elsewhere - forty per cent of total mortality in Mumbai’s slums is attributable to infections and parasitic diseases resulting from water contamination and lousy sanitation. People are literally dying in their tens of thousands every year simply because of the state’s capitalist development policies in which: water costs 4000% more than usual because they have to get it from vendors rather than having it piped in; half the population has no toilet; the vast restaurant and food service economy is supported by a huge pool of child labour; local power has been usurped by ‘urban development authorities’ whose remit is to plug the city’s wealthy elite into the global cyber-community; World Bank schemes supposedly designed to help the city’s poor have poured state money into improving the property of the middle and upper classes. Mumbai is suffering, like everywhere else in India, from a ruthless process of wealth transfer (sometimes known as ‘liberalisation’) ordered by the IMF and implemented by the government. This is why the IMF was among the targets at the World Social Forum in the city in 2004.

      And what of the trains? There is a reason, apart from the number and size of the blasts, why so many were killed. One thing that everyone in my workplace commented on when hearing the news (there are lots of people with relatives in India, both Hindu and Muslim) was that the trains in Mumbai are absolutely stuffed to the rafters, with people transported in conditions that would raise considerable protest if applied to animals. Mumbai’s Western Railway, targeted by the attackers, has been the scene of satyagrahis only this year because of the preposterous, crushing overcrowding on the trains, and the company’s decision to cut back on rolling stock. Predictably, the police repressed these. These packed trains were an easy target for whoever wanted to bomb them.
      **********

      Yep like Comrade Lenin gives a damn though. Nyrone said pretty much the same thing in his posts here - and I largely agreed with him while I feel like kneeing the twat, Lenin,, in his gonads. Wonder what is the difference? Nyrone cares but Lenin is just an opportunistic wanker. Look carefully - is there ONE word of sympathy, of human feeling for the people who were murdered?
      *********

      It is platitudinous but necessary to mention that of course Muslims were among those targeted. 17% of the city’s population is Muslim. There are real fears that these attacks could be used to spark a wave of communal violence as was the result when the city was bombed in 1993. Indian Muslims, for their part, have been giving blood to the wounded victims of these attacks. So much is to be expected.
      **********
      Fair enough, though it was not only muslims killed. But I doubt that Lenin would care that much for muslims if he did not perceive them to be on his side of the political line. Hey! What no lefty hindus or christians to eulogise over?
      ***********

      Also worth noting is that India’s Muslim electorate has swung sharply to more left-wing parties in recent years - a radicalisation strongly rooted in the success of the World Social Forum, which gave expression to the anticapitalist and anti-imperialist movements. The politics of unity and working class struggle have been supplanting those of accomodation through the Congress party. (Historically, anti-colonial Muslims were often prominently involved in the communist party in its foundation, partly preferring it to the Hindu iconography that sometimes dominated the Congress party).
      *******

      Congress’ Hindu iconography drove muslims in droves to the Communist party! Fiction.But the subtext is that hindus are religious rightwingers, even the so called congress seculars.

      ***************

      Something will be done about that. As Ellis Sharp notes, the Hindu-supremacist tradition of nationalist-religious bigotry associated with the BJP also happens to be the most hawkish, pro-Zionist, pro-imperialist force in India.
      *******

      Hindutvas are many things but they are not pro-zionist or pro-imperialist, not by a long shot. These neo-stalinists simply don’t have a clue what they are talking about but what’s new?

      *****************

      It is easy enough to imagine how they and their political allies might try to use these attacks to resuscitate their support and break the rising tide of militancy by scapegoating Muslims. At the same time, the Congress party has betrayed supporters by pushing through more IMF-inspired ‘reforms’, sought nuclear and military collaboration with Bush and consolidated relations with Israel. India’s ambassador recently told an Israeli audience that their two countries were “heirs to great and ancient civilisations”.
      *********
      That’s right. All those on the trains were zionist lackeys of an irredeemably corrupt state. The Israeli angle must be brought into every explanation of great evil.
      ******************
      Congress has been as repressive in Kashmir as their reactionary predecessors, and precisely as fervent in the military build-up against Pakistan. The reaction to these attacks from the External Affairs Minister has been to demand that Pakistan ‘dismantle the infrastructure of terrorism’, which closely mirrors the reaction of the BJP to the 2001 attacks on the Indian parliament building. All indications are that the Congress government will pursue the same dogged path, while using the situation to bring errant Muslims back into line.
      *******

      poor Pakistan , attacked needlessly by those goondas from India. Where’re Dawood Ibrahim and a few other mass murderers living in impunity, one might venture to ask? One shouldn’t! One should just accept that it is all a conspiracy to keep ‘muslims’ in ‘line’.

      ***********

      Who knows, perhaps some ‘moderates’ will be selected to go to their communities and ‘root out this evil’. And then capital can resume at an increased pace the exploitation of Indian labour, while the state continues to holds its population under the threat of thermonuclear megadeath. The fact that this is how states almost always respond to terrorist attacks tells you how concerned they are for the population, and for those who died.
      ***********

      I fear that if someone like Pankaj Mishra wrote this in a NYT op=ed, some of us would naturally jump to the conclusion the Indian govt planted those 8 bombs, every single one of them.

      ************
      Oh, and good news for investors: Mumbai’s stock market shrugged off the attacks and market pros are upbeat.

      ***************
      Stalinist black humour. Ha ha.

      Fucker.

    86. Vikrant Singh — on 13th July, 2006 at 1:29 pm  

      mirax… awesome…

      P.S Sunny, stop reading those idiots (Lenin and Mishra).

    87. El Cid — on 13th July, 2006 at 1:31 pm  

      Ravi,
      Since you are a keen student of Castillian I would just to point out that it should be:
      “Una cosa mas”
      Feel free to teach me Gujurati, Punjabi, Bengali, etc, whatever it is your parents speak.
      I only know one word — benchoad.

    88. Vikrant Singh — on 13th July, 2006 at 1:39 pm  

      lemme enrich your vocab.

      madarchod,machod
      chutia

      thats it boy 2 at a time.

    89. Vikrant Singh — on 13th July, 2006 at 1:42 pm  

      actully you can guess what language an Indian speak by the way he pronounces “bhenchoad”:

      Punjabis pronounce it “bhainchod”, Hindis “Bhainchud”, Marathis,Gujarathis pronounce it “bhenchud” while Bhopalis expand it to “bhain ke lavde”!

    90. Ravi Naik — on 13th July, 2006 at 2:02 pm  

      “Since you are a keen student of Castillian I would just to point out that it should be:
      “Una cosa mas””
      Feel free to teach me Gujurati, Punjabi, Bengali, etc, whatever it is your parents speak.”

      Actually, El Cid, my first four years of school were in Spanish as I grew up in Venezuela. But having left the country when I was 10 years old, I have had little opportunity to speak the language. So thank you for correcting me.

      My parents speak Portuguese though. And I guess you know all the swear words in that language, so no lessons for you. :)

    91. Leon — on 13th July, 2006 at 2:18 pm  

      A man claiming to represent al-Qaida in Kashmir said the terror network had set up a wing in Kashmir and appealed to Indian Muslims to take up jihad, an Indian news agency reported Thursday. An official said the government said it was taking the claim ‘’very seriously.’’ The man, who identified himself as Abu al-Hadeed, told Kashmir’s Current News Service that ‘’who so ever has carried out the attacks in Bombay we express our gratitude and happiness.’’

      As word of the announcement spread, a senior intelligence official in Kashmir said the call had been placed from a local landline phone that authorities were trying to trace. ‘’Our immediate effort is to locate the caller and ascertain the authenticity of the claim,’’ said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak with the media. ‘’The government is taking it very seriously.’’ It was impossible to independently verify the caller’s identity and if he actually represents a new wing of al-Qaida.

      The Bombay train bombings on Tuesday killed at least 200 people and injured more than 700. Kashmiri militants are being investigated for the attack, although two main rebel groups have denied responsibility. There have been allegations that Islamic militants fighting to wrest predominantly Muslim Kashmir from India have ties to al-Qaida, but Thursday’s statement is the first time Osama bin Laden’s network has claimed to have spread to the Indian territory. ‘’We appeal to Muslims in India to fight for freedom and Islam and choose jihad as their way to achieve freedom and establishing Islamic ways,’’ al-Hadeed was quoted as saying. He added the Bombay bombings ‘’are a reaction to what is happening to the minorities, especially Muslims in India.’’

    92. Refresh — on 13th July, 2006 at 2:18 pm  

      Mirax,

      Back to the original point you made. The bits you quoted do not read as you suggested it does. Not to me.

      As for Lenin’s contribution - I fear you are unfair to suggest that he is talking about anything other than how the state is likely to react and how it will impact various groups in India.

      As I read it - he says that all sections of Mumbai society were under attack - but now the danger is for the muslims, possibly both from communal rioting as well as further strictures from the State. Probably across India.

      As for Kashmir he does not draw a distinction between Congress and BJP policies and action.

      Links with Israel - well he says what he says. Either he is factually wrong, or misunderstands the situation.

      [Avoiding another thread hijacking].

      I too would like to see expressions of sympathy from everyone, but if you accept Nyrone then its not a strong reason to be so anti-Lenin. (At least on the points Nyrone did cover).

    93. Leon — on 13th July, 2006 at 2:19 pm  

      That was from here by the way, not sure why the link didn’t show up…

    94. Refresh — on 13th July, 2006 at 3:41 pm  

      Leon - the world has truly gone bananas.

    95. Nyrone — on 14th July, 2006 at 2:00 am  

      The world has always been bananas, we just learn to see it clearly the more we grow.

      That article just linked seems rather unsubstantiated, but if it does contain even a fraction of truth within it, then it makes me want to slap these Al-Qaida muppets around the face with a wet fish even more than I had wanted to do so previously.

      Currently reading up on the Middle East tensions, it’s just disgusting, like a jaded return to the past..Iraq was vietnam 2.0 and now MORE middle east conflict is occuring, why can’t we human beings all just get along? It’s like a stupid street brawl with 3 people refusing to listen to each other, as they slag each other off…..When will the ‘international’ community intervene?

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