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  • Inayat gets defensive


    by Sunny
    9th July, 2006 at 7:22 pm    

    Radio 4 this weekend had a debate on how representative the MCB is. Have a listen from here. It’s an excellent piece, with various organisations and people saying how the MCB focuses on foreign policy issues rather than what British Muslims are really worried about. The Sufis in particular seemed quite pissed off, and a new organisation called British Sufi Forum is being launched later this month. Bunglawala turns up at the end with his typical line: “yeah, and what have they done for Muslims lately?” Heh. I don’t feel sorry for him yet.

    But we can apply this across the board. The Sikh organisations are more worried about Khalistan and 1984 etc than issues at home like crime, deprivation and depression within the older generation… the Hindu Forum is more focused on Hindus in Bangladesh than here. I wonder if they all plan their strategies together?


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    Filed in: Muslim,Organisations






    55 Comments below   |  

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    1. waxon — on 9th July, 2006 at 8:05 pm  

      the MCB are hardly representative of Muslims - its a government funded organisation and they just repeat what the government wants them to say :)

    2. Refresh — on 9th July, 2006 at 9:29 pm  

      Sunny do we really listen to the same Radio 4?

      Other than the question at the end about the viability of whatever new organisation they were discussing - there was nothing here to make yet another fuss.

      One group mentioned they already had 200 affiliates - what and who and why?

      On the otherhand you may be more in touch with what ever new organisations being developed. Whatever the situation - guaranteed it will end in tears for the muslims.

      Now why shouldn’t these organisations express an interest which also draws in foreign policy? Do you seriously propose that for example the Board of Deputies should not mention Israel.

      Tears for sure. Perfectly timed with Blair’s challenge last week.

      I am now more interested about where you are taking this. Do you have specific groups you want to promote? And why?

      Perhaps there’s a lot more we need to see and hear about this.

    3. Sunny — on 9th July, 2006 at 10:20 pm  

      Refresh: One group mentioned they already had 200 affiliates - what and who and why?

      The MCB says it has over 400 affiliates. We can ask the same question of them - who and who and why?

      I’m a bit disappointed you get so defensive. Why should all this end up in tears for Muslims? If anything it is a welcome move because it tells everyone that British Muslims are not as homogenous as others think, and are certainly much more intelligent and nuanced than the MCB come across. If anything the MCB has contributed to the negative image of Muslims in the UK I’d say. Have faith in your fellow brothers and sisters.

    4. Leon — on 9th July, 2006 at 10:44 pm  

      From what I’ve heard about the way the Hindu Forum is run I doubt the word planning comes into anything much…

    5. Refresh — on 9th July, 2006 at 10:54 pm  

      Sunny, I wasn;t being defensive. Quite the opposite.

      I think the way forward is for these organisations to come together and share their views clearly and contribute to the joint development. Not to build up to an almighty bust-up. Certainly by pitching them against each other they are all going to lose.

      There is too much at stake. Of course I appreciate the likes of City Circle - for the fact that they exist and are active - but the risk will be they too will not be representative except for the metropolitan types.

    6. Bayah — on 9th July, 2006 at 10:58 pm  

      Sunny, another post against a Muslim individual/organisation.

      Let me tell you something free of charge Sunny. You might not agree with Inayat and I might not either on certain issue’s, but guess what at least he is doing something to stop the Muslim youth being radicalised by radicals such as Al-Ghurabah?

      Again, my question is do you wish to stop Muslim’s like himself who might not be representative of the Muslim Community as a whole but does something to teach young lads to channel their anger through peaceful and democratic means?

      So what if there is another organisation being set up, I personally don’t agree with dividing our community up into more divisions.

      Sunny have you ever sat down with the Muslim youth and spoke what their concerns are? When was it? Where was it?

      Like I stated before foreign policy plays an important role in the Muslim youth life, I know because I work with them every weekend as a volunteer at the local community centre with their home work. When they see their own mothers being raped, their fellow brother’s being killed by American made missile’s in Israel they get angry.

      How do you want them to channel that anger Sunny? I would love to hear your guide for the Muslim youth, speak to me, show me better way’s sunny.

      Isn’t the Zionist Community of the UK concentrating on the Foreign Policy as well?

    7. Bayah — on 9th July, 2006 at 11:04 pm  

      Just like to clarify that the Home Work Club is like a social gathering. I speak to them about their concerns their issue’s in school, mosque, community.

    8. Cisoux — on 9th July, 2006 at 11:05 pm  

      Prominent organisations of the current Muslim ‘leadership’ are characterised by base communalism, the stoking of sectarianism, and hysterical victimhood mongering. They exist on a continuum with the extremists. They are a disgrace, they have their heads in the sand about the murderous fascist creed that persists amongst some Muslims in Britain. Any alternative voices that deal directly with the self created problems of the Muslim community, and that do not peddle persecution complexes and shill for the extreme right wing ideologies of Maududi politics, and their saps and snake oil salesmen, are to be greatly welcomed.

      Watch the documentary on BBC2 on Tuesday 9pm about the lads from Zionist Occupied Derby and Zionist Occupied Hounslow that went to Israel to blow themselves up and kill Jews to get an idea of what the real world is. Apparently the documentary has uncovered links between that pair of snakes and Mohammad Siddique Khan.

    9. Cisoux — on 9th July, 2006 at 11:11 pm  

      Bayah

      When I read the words of people like you I realise how screwed this country is. We’ll be seeing Muslims suicide bombing themselves for a long long time. And these demented psychopaths will always believe they are doing something righteous and that they are not at fault, because people like you suckle their stupid and incendiary idiotic ‘Mothers being raped in Israel’ rhetoric.

      Why don’t ‘angry’ Muslim youth grow up and stop acting like stupid babies who need their nappies changing? Hmmm what shall we say to psychopaths to stop blowing themselves up and killing hundreds of innocents? How about…..the same thing we would say to a bunch of Neo Nazis plotting to blow up a room full of Asian people…..that you are not to do it and we dont succour their victimhood complex. That’s, like, basic human morality and sensibility, but it seems beyond the mental grasp of the new generation of New Nazis who are plotting to kill people out of this repellent nihilistic death cult of Maududi-inspired theo-politics.

      Don’t forget to watch the documentary on Tuesday BBC2 9pm, about the Nazi suicide bombers from Britain, woops sorry I mean, those poor misunderstood cuddly fluffy bunny rabbits.

    10. Sunny — on 9th July, 2006 at 11:34 pm  

      I think the way forward is for these organisations to come together and share their views clearly and contribute to the joint development. Not to build up to an almighty bust-up

      Refresh - I think you’re being quite idealistic here. You forget people want power, and the MCB has become a power structure all about giving and taking influence. Did you read that piece by Faisal Bodi on how the MCB awards contracts?
      http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/faisal_bodi/2006/05/whose_equality_agenda.html

      I think you are being defensive nevertheless. Why should anyone have to sign up to the MCB’s ways of doing things? You heard the programme, there were legitimate concerns about the ideology behind the MCB.

      Apply this to something else. If you wanted to interact with a Hindu organisation, would you be happy working with the RSS?

      Bayah says: but guess what at least he is doing something to stop the Muslim youth being radicalised by radicals such as Al-Ghurabah?

      God, you really have a bad opinion of fellow Muslims don’t you? We’re constantly fed this rubbish by everyone. Unless the MCB were there, Muslim youth would be taken over by Al-Muhajiroun and Hizb ut Tahrir. Even when the MCB did nothing much about those idiots their members were no more than a few hundred.

      Most Muslims I know can see through their stupidity without the MCB. So I don’t buy the idea that Inayat Bunglwala is saving us from hordes of suicide bombers.

    11. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 10th July, 2006 at 12:06 am  

      Interesting interview.

      We all ready know that the MCB doesn’t like being questioned, but favors asking others leading open questions full of retorhic appeals aimed at non particpating observers and ask them “you decide”. In my opinon they don’t really understand that the word “debate” means.

      Case in point, after “that” panarama program they sent a list of objections and leading questions to the Panarama team, who took the time to respond in detial. To my knowledge this response has not even been acknowledged by the MCB.

      A very bright light needs to be shone on the MCB.

      Cheers,

      TFI

    12. Tilling — on 10th July, 2006 at 12:28 am  

      its a government funded organisation and they just repeat what the government wants them to say

      LOL - as if! The MCB tries to tell the government what they ought to say/do. Thankfully, the government ignores most of it for the crap it is.

    13. Refresh — on 10th July, 2006 at 12:45 am  

      Idealistic maybe - but a worthy goal I would like to think.

      We will have a peculiar situation where only a couple of weeks ago an organisation which brought together both Sunni and Shia communities together declared themselves. Which greatly pleased me.

      Now we have a different situation where we have a new group calling themselves the British Sufi Forum; and then others will come out of the woodwork. All presumably vying for their spot in the media ( I may be being unfair here).

      Which is all very well. But in the end it may end up where the media will still pick the spokesperson who is likely to offend the moolycoddled ears of their audience - and where will that get anybody.

      An overall body who can draw from the various others to speak and liaise. Given that in Islam there is no hierarchy, it seems odd advocating a co-ordinating group, but given the pathetic behaviour of both media and renta-quotes - its necessary to take a lead.

      That doesn’t come from 30 /40 organisations - with splinterings to follow over the next decade.

      I put forward my view more from organisational point of view than any particular agenda.

      As for defensive - again no, you’re wrong. I raise it because your premise may be a problem.

    14. Refresh — on 10th July, 2006 at 12:55 am  

      Cisoux

      How is U.N.C.L.E.?

      Can I shorten it UNCLE? Too many fullstops….

    15. Old Pickler — on 10th July, 2006 at 12:55 am  

      When they see their own mothers being raped, their fellow brother’s being killed by American made missile’s in Israel they get angry.

      Sorry, this is the “Muslim Youth” of Britain?

      When do they see their “own mothers being raped”, or their “fellow brother’s [sic] being killed by American made missile’s [sic] in Israel”?

      They live here. In Britain. In absolute luxury compared with my grandfather and almost certainly their own. They have nothing to whine about at all. Yet whine they do.

      “Muslim Youth” shoud shut up for a bit. That would be great.

    16. Sunny — on 10th July, 2006 at 2:01 am  

      Old Pickler - are you under the delusion again that you are adding constructively to this debate? Try re-thinking that assumption again please, you’re as welcome as a housefly on a fresh plate of chocolate barfi.

      chocolate….mmmmm….

      Refresh - I don’t get why you even want “Muslim representatives” who are not only right-wing reactionaries, but also have an interest in promoting a victim mentality about everything, and focus on issues around the world than at home.

      An overall body who can draw from the various others to speak and liaise.

      And how often does this happen? Does it happen in practice? Everytime there is a “diversity” in opinion, the MCB jump down the throat of anyone who they disagree with. I don’t even want to list the people our friend Bunglawala has ongoing feuds with. I think you’re under the mis-conception these people are doing it for the greater good and really care for the people who don’t agree with them.

    17. mirax — on 10th July, 2006 at 7:28 am  

      Bayah

      You wrote: When they see their own mothers being raped, their fellow brother’s being killed by American made missile’s in Israel they get angry.

      Either your charges or worse, you, have a tenuous grasp on reality. If British muslims have their actual members being killed illegally - please know that they/you have legal recourse. If it is imaginary relatives that you get het up about, I am very, very sorry for you but no bull.

      On the point of representation, it is noted that you and Refresh feel that having a diversity of organisations/voices is ‘divisive’ - and I find that strange when in conjunction I hear that it is wrong to miscast the community as monolithic. Which is it? IF the community is diverse, then a single spokesman cannot do it justice.

    18. Refresh — on 10th July, 2006 at 7:58 am  

      Shall we say everybody needs to tread wih great caution. Who is backing who and who is holding the purse strings?

      I do not want to end up with a situation where we have organisations who are backed by Sunny, another brokered by DavidT and for good measure New Labour aparatchiks instigate a further three.

      Perhaps Sunny I don’t trust the environment. And for sure if the newcomers have no interest in our foreign policy - they are doomed. I would feel no affinity to them. But then it may be I have always been interested in current affairs.

      In any case to get your point across you are apt to attack organisations by picking feuds yourself. A good example might be how you view for example Respect.

      Mirax, of course there is diversity - but I have no interest in artificially created groupings, to reflect this ‘diversity’.

      Again - if they end up battling amongst each other - then we have had it. So caution.

    19. mirax — on 10th July, 2006 at 8:15 am  

      Hi Refresh

      >>but I have no interest in artificially created groupings, to reflect this ‘diversity’.

      I am sorry but what am I missing here? How are these new groups ‘artificially created’? Are you implying that outside forces are at play here? That these new voices are not authentic in some way?

      I feel that if they do end up ‘battling’ each other - in terms of having different views, not pitched battle on the streets, then all the better for muslims and the UK. You surely do not have a problem with difference, debate and plurality do you? It is the norm in democratic societies. If you are reaching for the neocolonialist divide-and-rule argument, do pause and consider what it may reveal of yourself and your self-confidence.

    20. Refresh — on 10th July, 2006 at 8:24 am  

      Mirax, I think Bayah’s poin is well made. Watching injustice that is on the scale that is toady’s Israel is hard to stomach.

      Where I would have difficulty with Bayah’s approach is he needs to widen his expression to cover injustices to all mankind. That is not to say he doesn’t already do so, but it needs to come across.

    21. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 10th July, 2006 at 8:30 am  

      Mirax, I think Bayah’s poin is well made. Watching injustice that is on the scale that is toady’s Israel is hard to stomach.

      Indeed, teaching children to marytr themselves by suicide bombing is truely stomach churning.

    22. Refresh — on 10th July, 2006 at 8:32 am  

      Mirax - I am not sure it reveals much more than what my concerns are. And if it does, would I be misplaced in my thinking?

      It is precisely how things work.

      And people, ordinary people will see right through it.

      New organisations take a while to bed down - before they are actually able to deliver on anything. So perhaps time will be the real arbiter.

    23. Refresh — on 10th July, 2006 at 8:34 am  

      TFI - I don’t think he’s said that or supports it.

      (just noted my appalling spelling mistakes - expects long lecture on grammar).

    24. mirax — on 10th July, 2006 at 8:47 am  

      I thought that Bayah’s point was very badly made in fact :
      1. implying mass rape of muslim women in Isreal: untrue, inflammatory, dishonest.

      2. If anyone in Isreal is being killed by american made missiles, not qassams, I’d be very surprised indeed.

      You know when you can’t even be bothered to get the facts correct on real injustices inflicted on palestinians, i’d be very suspicious of your actual concern for said people. Isreal/Palestine has become a huge political football for way too many angry and dishonest people to kick around. Myself, I now don’t read or listen to anything from anyone other than Isrealis and Palestinians on the issue: not the arab ‘brothers’, not the jewish diaspora; not the muslim ummah; not the western interlocutors, esp the hardcore leftists.

      I wonder what your ‘foreign policy’ concerns are Refresh. I am sure it encompasses Iraq and Afghanistan. Would it also include Sudan and Somalia, Indonesia and Iran? Is it based on principle or ummah politics?

    25. Refresh — on 10th July, 2006 at 9:20 am  

      I can understand the point you make about IP being a football. And that’s a fair stance.

      On foreign policy - I would agree with your list and add one or two more. However I was in two minds about Afghanistan - policy failure is more my concern.

      1. Mass rape - The language Bayah uses is rhetorical. That is not to say mass rape of muslim women in various parts of the world has not happened ( it was me who focussed on Israel - as last couple of weeks of Israeli brutality has angered me - and it wasn’t down to rape).

      2. Yes people are being killed by US supplied missiles, and worse.

      I’d be interested to know who you do listen to on the IP issue and what they are telling you.

      Sorry got to run - car is playing up.

    26. S — on 10th July, 2006 at 9:52 am  

      “Like I stated before foreign policy plays an important role in the Muslim youth life, I know because I work with them every weekend as a volunteer at the local community centre with their home work. When they see their own mothers being raped, their fellow brother’s being killed by American made missile’s in Israel they get angry.”

      Are they angry at their fellow muslims this morning for making a fake checkpoint in a Sunni neighbourhood, pulling people out of cars and shooting them (40 civilians)? Does the murder of their brothers and sisters drive them towards Al Quaeda who are in Afghanistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Iraq murdering muslims. Duh? Are you really a youth worker or are you taking the piss?

    27. Roger — on 10th July, 2006 at 10:37 am  

      ” If anyone in Isreal is being killed by american made missiles, not qassams, I’d be very surprised indeed.”
      “Yes people are being killed by US supplied missiles, and worse.”
      Mirax’s point- pedantic, I agree, but it makes the point that he is criticising imprecise and unthinking rhetoric- is that American-made missiles are not killing anyone in the internationally-recognised borders of Israel.

      Are muslim, sikh, hindu organisations so concerned about what happens abroad because the only way they can feel sure of retaining their religious identity is by noisily identifying with coreligionists abroad perhaps? Many people who call themselves muslim, hindu etc do so purely culturally and don’t actually believe the religion they are supposed to follow is true- though prejudices and custome last longer than beliefs. Unless thay are taught to identify with believers abroad they will be even more likely to abandon the community.

    28. sonia — on 10th July, 2006 at 11:11 am  

      I must admit to being confused for example what the MCB is about - apparently they’re an ‘umbrella’ body for ‘Muslim’ organizations - now that to me sounds like an ‘umbrella body for religious-based organizations’ - which is fine if that’s what they make clear they’re about, instead of a vague assumption the rest of us have that they’re about ‘muslim people’..

    29. Chris Stiles — on 10th July, 2006 at 11:18 am  


      I must admit to being confused for example what the MCB is about - apparently they’re an ‘umbrella’ body for ‘Muslim’ organizations - now that to me sounds like an ‘umbrella body for religious-based organizations

      http://www.mcb.org.uk/affiliates.php

      I guess the problem insofar as there is one - is that they end up ‘representing’ certain groups ethnically as well as religiously.

    30. sonia — on 10th July, 2006 at 11:21 am  

      you’re right Chris.

    31. Roger — on 10th July, 2006 at 11:56 am  

      The MCB- I don’t think they do it consciously- want to combine all the identities- religious, ethnic and cultural- into one muslim religiously-defined grab-bag.

    32. Cisoux — on 10th July, 2006 at 12:01 pm  

      Refresh

      Make sure to watch BBC2 Tuesday 9pm buddy, get a dose of reality about the Maududi-ist fascism emanating from your back garden, the kind you soft soap and the grievance and victimhood that you peddle that feeds directly into it, the conspiracy theories, the DENIAL and paranoia that you and they feed on like carrion.

    33. Cisoux — on 10th July, 2006 at 12:10 pm  

      From the BBC website:

      +++++

      Britain’s First Suicide Bombers

      This film follows the extraordinary journey of the two young British Islamist terrorists who emerged from the suburbs of Derby and Hounslow to bomb a seaside bar in Tel Aviv in April 2003. It reveals previously unknown evidence of how Omar Sharif Khan and Asif Hanif became embroiled in radical politics and how they were involved in a wider network of British Jihadists.

      Hanif died in his own explosion and Omar’s body was found a fortnight later in the sea off Israel. Three members of Omar’s family were later prosecuted - and acquitted - under the Terrorism Act for their alleged knowledge of the atrocity.

      +++++

      Don’t forget to watch it, BBC2 9pm. Although I don’t believe that this pair of fascist scumbags were Britain’s first suicide bombers, I do believe a snake from Birmingham blew himself up in Kashmir before that, but I’m not sure of the dateline. Anyway, this is the culmination of Refresh’s type of politics, grievance pandering, hate mongering and DENIAL (because to him they are cuddly fluffy bunny rabbits and not the murderous bastards they were) and it will trace fully the extreme right wing Ummah-ism fascist roots of the problem. Make sure you don’t miss it!

      Especially you Refresh, you grievance mongering head in the sand soft soaper of fascist ideology! ;-)

    34. Bayah — on 10th July, 2006 at 1:07 pm  

      Cisoux, I will only debate or discuss matters once your temperamental state is below a level where I can understand what you are trying to say.

      Sunny, You did not answer my question. When was the last time you sat down with fellow Muslim youth and talked to them how they can channel their anger peacefully?

      Unless the MCB were there, Muslim youth would be taken over by Al-Muhajiroun and Hizb ut Tahrir. All main stream Muslim/Islamic organisations play an important role’s in our Muslim Community. Each have their role to play in our society.

      Again, I will reiterate this Hizb ut Tahrir have been here for many years. Even before MCB, if they were radical’s why weren’t there any acts of terrorism in the 50 odd years they have been here?

      Is there a reason for your hatred against all the leading Muslim organisations? MCB, MPACUK, Hizb ut Tahrir, MAB?

      Even when the MCB did nothing much about those idiots their members were no more than a few hundred. Sorry are you complaining Sunny for the lack of action from MCB? What would you like them to do? Like I asked before:

      How do you want them to channel that anger Sunny? I would love to hear your guide for the Muslim youth, speak to me, show me better way’s sunny.

      Sunny, I have asked you to guide and help me as to how we can challenge these radicals and not once you have answered my question. Sorry if this sounds rude but you are suffering from what the Muslim are suffering from “CCWNA” (Constant Complainers With No Action”) They moan and groan all the time, but when the time of action come’s they make excuse’s to not to do anything to change the problem.

      Most Muslims I know can see through their stupidity without the MCB. So I don’t buy the idea that Inayat Bunglwala is saving us from hordes of suicide bombers. So Sunny who is saving us from the hordes of suicide bombers? You?

      Believe me as a youth worker, Inayat is a good figure for the Muslim youth to look up to in the media scene’s.This give’s them a sense of hope, a hope which I didn’t see before the tragic events of 7/7.

      1. implying mass rape of muslim women in Isreal: untrue, inflammatory, dishonest. Where did I state it was done in Israel? The only time I mentioned Israel in my post was in the Comment which stated Israeli’s are killing innocent people with American made missiles.

      I guess you don’t follow the New’s so i’ll bring the New’s to you http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5162976.stm

      If people wish to discuss or debate, do so with manners and do not answer a question with a question. We get them with MP’s, and if I wanted to have that sort of debate I would go to the office of my MP.

    35. Refresh — on 10th July, 2006 at 1:50 pm  

      Hello Cisoux

      I would dearly like to understand this Madudi thing you keep going on about - but really don’t have the time. Not right now.

      But clearly you have a fervently held view on this - and that has come from somewhere. So perhaps you can let me know where you are getting your stuff from so we can understand you a little better.

      Even if its JihadWatch that’s OK. Its an open discussion we are talking about.

      As for my back garden - I really need to deal with you on this one. I don’t have one. Not one to speak of.
      But if it was the front garden, then I guess I’d be obliged to check it out.

      [There goes another thread - never quite complete the topic in hand do we? I think this time it was my fault.]

    36. seekeroftruth — on 10th July, 2006 at 2:03 pm  

      Bayah: I understand that MCB is composed mostly of middle ages conservative south asians and they don’t espuse violence etc. and are obviously preferable to thugs from almuhajiroon and co. However MCB is much influenced by Mawdudi ideology and this kind of political ideology is the big daddy which is now bearing ugly kids like hizb tahrir, al muhajiroon etc.

      And what is this with ANGER which needs to be channeled. I though anger is haram in Islam. Why can’t these people join forces with other well meaning non-muslims who are ready to speak for justice.

    37. sonia — on 10th July, 2006 at 2:32 pm  

      i would say its silly for people to label things as ‘Muslim anger or Muslim frustration’ - lots of people are angry and frustrated full stop. and the same applies to everyone who may be angry or frustrated - we/they all need to work out ways to not be angry and frustrated and instead be contructive and participate in the democratic process.

    38. Sunny — on 10th July, 2006 at 2:40 pm  

      Bayah: All main stream Muslim/Islamic organisations play an important role’s in our Muslim Community. Each have their role to play in our society.

      Mainstream? Since when did Hizb ut Tahrir become mainstream? By the same scale I guess you would be happy with the National Front and the BNP being included as part of being maintream organisations that should be embraced? Let’s have consistent standards shall we?

      You also ask who is saving us from suicide bombers. Have you read the Qu’ran lately? I’m sure there was a verse in there that says killing one innocent person is like killing humanity. Did it maybe occur to you that not all fellow Muslims are not going to become suicide bombers at any given opportunity, or do you have a low opinion of them?

    39. Bayah — on 10th July, 2006 at 2:45 pm  

      Sonia: Totally agree, but I was merely speaking from a Muslim prospective. None Muslim are angry as well, the wars, the child poverty in the world and so on.

      But, my main question is to Sunny, How can these people especially Muslim go about making these change’s in their communities? Create a blog like Sunny and Moan and groan day in day out about the status of our community or is there another way?

      seekeroftruth: Please look more into the topic of anger. Also, your point of working with None Muslims, Yes I agree and you can see that they are working with other organisations.

    40. seekeroftruth — on 10th July, 2006 at 2:53 pm  

      sunny: a question for you. You complain about the communalism with British Muslims when they form Muslim organizations. Arn’t you doing a similar thing by forming ‘Asian forums’? People should be allowed to form whatever organizations they want. However, the problem among the Muslims is that the dogma of unity of Ummah under any circumstances is so strong that Muslims have forgotten the quranic command of ‘do justice even if it is against yourself and family;muslims are afraid to criticize fellow Muslims, many think of Taliban as over pious and a ;little overzealous Muslims’ although any objective human knows that the Taliban were thugs. Similarly if some Hizb Tahrir expresses hate/violent anger, other Muslims consider them as a ‘ bit emotional slightly misguided fellow brothers’. However it is critical to point out the flaws among these people because these ideologies are killing Islam from inside.

    41. Tanvir — on 10th July, 2006 at 3:05 pm  

      Whether you like it or not HT are probably one of the leading Muslim Organisations in this country if measured by following.

      However, I think the majority of Muslim young people in the country do not affiliate themselves with any particular organisation. Most Muslim kids dont even go to the mosque, bar Fridays and there is a huge proportion who dont even do that.

      Then there are more open minded Muslims, who will go to talks or debates regardless of which organisation hosts them, going purely on whether the topic for discussion looks interesting and if they have the time. So one week you will go to a HT event another a MCB event, but not really participating in the organisational activities of either.

      There is also a huge proportion of Muslims from my findings, who have no particular love for HT, not because they feel they are extremists - because they are not and have actively made the effort to make clear they are not, but more because their purpose does not seem realistic or because Muslims feel there are other issues that are a much bigger priority. HT have tried to respond to this by discussing community issues than go on about the khilafa 24/7.

      I think the MCB do serve a purpose, and whichever way their work is skewed it does represent the voice of one section of the Muslim community or other evidently on how well they are organised and how well their events are attended. Of course people who dont like their work are going to bash them, thats just how it is.

      Most organisations do seem to me to be making an effort to be addressing community issues its just the international affairs ones are more widely publicized, you’re not going to get the leader of a Muslim organization holding a press conference announcing that next week they will have a parenting course in Leicester are you? But if the government were about to join hands with Bush to invade Syria, and the organization knew that just about every single one of its members and followers were against this…. Then it might just be appropriate to make a comment. Its the international affairs issues are the ones that seem to bring the community together to form a voice and thats where the problem lies for opponents, and somewhat understandably as it is these major world events that incite the few loose cannons in the community to act out of turn.

    42. Sunny — on 10th July, 2006 at 3:13 pm  

      But, my main question is to Sunny, How can these people especially Muslim go about making these change’s in their communities?

      Aha, but I have tricks up my sleeve Bayah - I’m never just about all talk and no action. Though discussing the issues at hand and creating the space to air them is also important.

      Tanvir/Bayah may not feel the HuT is a bit mad but I certainly do, and have explained many times why this is the case.

      Maybe it’s time now to compile a dossier on all these things so as to lay out why we think the way we do.

    43. Leon — on 10th July, 2006 at 3:20 pm  

      “Maybe it’s time now to compile a dossier on all these things so as to lay out why we think the way we do.”

      Agreed. It would save time because when these people come on here we could point em in the direction of the links…

    44. mirax — on 10th July, 2006 at 3:26 pm  

      ah, the killer question ;-)

      >>Arn’t you doing a similar thing by forming ‘Asian forums’?

      I think I asked this question myself some time back. I did not get an answer but reading between the lines, esp the posts of people like Jay Singh, I get the impression this blog is meant in part to regain the unity of purpose (against racism) that asian-black groups had in the distant past (80′s).

      Thank you Seeker for indirectly answering the question that refresh avoided :
      >>However, the problem among the Muslims is that the dogma of unity of Ummah under any circumstances is so strong that Muslims have forgotten the quranic command of ‘do justice even if it is against yourself and family;muslims are afraid to criticize fellow Muslims

    45. Sunny — on 10th July, 2006 at 3:41 pm  

      You complain about the communalism with British Muslims when they form Muslim organizations. Arn’t you doing a similar thing by forming ‘Asian forums’? People should be allowed to form whatever organizations they want.

      Seeker - Not at all. This isn’t meant to be a forum only for Asians, but a forum where we Asians and non-Asians can discuss issues.

      1) Firstly it is internal. I felt a lot of magazines/papers discussing Asian stories had too many vested interests with religious and “community leaders” and hence I wanted somewhere for progressive Asians to discuss and drive the agenda rather than the traditional conservative Asians.

      2) I felt not enough dialogue was taking place between Asians and non-Asians and we had the traditional nutjobs with a typical “us and them” mentality writing in the MSM.

      3) We don’t seek to represent anyone but our own voices. We don’t censor or control conversation and people are always willing to come here and take apart our arguments (more than we are allowed with “community leaders”.

      4) I’m not promoting a false sense of solidarity between Asians. I think Asians have things in common and things not in common, but if I want solidarity it is with everyone, not just my own tribe (however you describe that “tribe”).

    46. seekeroftruth — on 10th July, 2006 at 3:59 pm  

      Tanvir: You are giving too much credit to HT by calling them an important organization. For too long I have seen Muslims receiving pamphlets from HT outisde mosque with a confused/amused look and then discrarding the paper without reading it. However I’ve always felt that people should stop receiving these pamphlets because HT peddles in outright religious racism for non-Muslims. Moreover these HT people are intellectually bankrupt by proposing establishing a medival legal code which itself is so hotly debated contested by various revivalist Muslim groups. They are not concerned that the same legal code will oppress non-Muslims, women and even Muslims who are not as hard line. I can imagine HT establishing the Khilafa and then realising that Bin Laden does not want all these well spoken hyped up HT girls to shut up and go inside the house;)

    47. seekeroftruth — on 10th July, 2006 at 4:01 pm  

      correction: I can imagine HT establishing the Khilafa and then realising that Bin Laden wants all these well spoken hyped up HT girls to shut up and go inside the house;)

    48. Bayah — on 10th July, 2006 at 4:07 pm  

      Aha, but I have tricks up my sleeve Bayah - I’m never just about all talk and no action. Though discussing the issues at hand and creating the space to air them is also important. Again, you have not answered my questions.

      If you want to debate answer the questions. You are failing in your “Mission” by acting like our Political Leader’s by ignoring the questions, derailing the topics.

      1. When was the last time you sat down with fellow Muslim youth and talked to them how they can channel their anger peacefully?
      2. How do you want them to channel that anger Sunny? I would love to hear your guide for the Muslim youth, speak to me, show me better way’s sunny.

      Mainstream? Since when did Hizb ut Tahrir become mainstream? By the same scale I guess you would be happy with the National Front and the BNP being included as part of being maintream organisations that should be embraced? Let’s have consistent standards shall we? Isn’t the BNP’s issue’s becoming main stream Sunny? Housing issue’s etc? Isn’t it a mainstream opinion of the Muslim’s that Foerign Policy is an issue, that Islam has a solution to world Problems?

      You also ask who is saving us from suicide bombers. Have you read the Qu’ran lately? I’m sure there was a verse in there that says killing one innocent person is like killing humanity. Did it maybe occur to you that not all fellow Muslims are not going to become suicide bombers at any given opportunity, or do you have a low opinion of them? I am taken back by your little knowledge regarding Islam, you might know more but through these type’s of discussion I really hope we can learn from each other’s faith, opinions and so on.

      Sunny, If you look at the Mosque’s nowadays they are by people from the area’s such as India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. If you look at their education system it does not teach what the Quran say’s or even teach the Arabic language. I spent like 6 years of my life sitting in a mosque and just going through the Quran without even understanding it. Why because our Mosque’s follow the cultural practice’s I learnt Urdu more than Arabic itself.

      The education system needs to be reformed to be allowed for a more in-depth understanding of Islam, The Society we live in, the education in our schools and so on.

      It is working slowly but surely, I like yourself do not sit on the net all day and moan and groan I go to the Mosque talk to the elders of the problem and they listen and if they are forwarding thinking they will go ahead with it. Just like my mosque.

      Yes, I do have a low opinion of the Muslim Community, because of what I see in the community I live in. The leaders have no vision, and the youth follow suit. Why are the Muslim Community failing extensively in education? Why are the Muslim’s not working towards building a good society in which they live in. Here is a good article on MPACUK http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/2316/35/ raising the same issues.

      I hope you can answer my question, as your posts continue without answering my questions, I am more towards a belief that you have no idea what you want the Muslim Community to do. Maybe we could meet up?

    49. seekeroftruth — on 10th July, 2006 at 4:19 pm  

      Bayah: How would you ensure that knowing Arabic will improve anything. There is a bigger problem of radicalism in the Arab world than anywhere else. There are many twisted interpretations going around which are unacceptable on basic ethical and moral grounds. I feel that more than Arabic, Muslims needs a critical analysis of the methodology employed in accessing the traditional sources. Muslims need to give more importance to rationality. It is a God given tool and we can’t ignore it while trying to decipher the Divine will.

      Moreover we have the problem in UK of lack of integration of peaceful, introvert pious traditionalists to the violent potential of the political salafi groups. We have a more nuanced approach to solve these various problems.

      Sunny: Thanks for answering my question.

    50. Bayah — on 10th July, 2006 at 4:28 pm  

      seekeroftruth: All of the leading Islamic Institutions are no doubt against terrorism. If their education is based upon rational just like Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, Imam Zaid Shakir preach then we can break radicalisation of the Muslim youth. Our institutions also need to teach Politics and Media, and I hope if Sunny is a man of his word can teach me how to go about doing that.

      Moreover we have the problem in UK of lack of integration of peaceful, introvert pious traditionalists to the violent potential of the political salafi groups.

      Seeker honestly believe me Muslims are starting to integrate into the greatness of our society, where we hold our MP’s t account, to join the Police, to fight against Crime. This is a start and with Organisations such as MAB, MCB and MPACUK did is starting to speed up.

    51. Sunny — on 10th July, 2006 at 4:30 pm  

      Ok let’s deal with your questions Bayah.

      1) When was the last time you sat down with fellow Muslim youth and talked to them how they can channel their anger peacefully?

      I do it all the time? I have enough Muslim friends who I talk to about politics with. I run another website (www.barficulture.com/community) where “Muslim youth” talk about whatever interests them every day. Believe it or not mostly they talk about issues that others do - about boyfriends/girlfriends, about dealing with identity crises, about pressure from parents etc.

      2. How do you want them to channel that anger Sunny? I would love to hear your guide for the Muslim youth, speak to me, show me better way’s sunny.

      Firstly there is a presumption there is a lot of anger, and I think this is slightly misguided. Hey I’m angry at the British govt’s presence in IRaq too, but I don’t see the answer as blowing people up on the tube. The vast majority of British Muslims don’t either. The solution, if you want to make a difference, is political engagement that focuses on dealing with opression for all peoples not just Muslims.

      We are presented selective narratives by the likes of the MCB - that Muslims are being opressed in Palestine and Kashmir and other parts of the Middle East but they are totally blameless. What about the funding of terrorist groups in Kashmir? How about accepting the existence of Israel and pushing for Hamas to reognise Israel and push for a two-state solution?

      This anger is created by some self-serving people who present their own biased propaganda (like HuT), and I’ve seen it.

      Isn’t it a mainstream opinion of the Muslim’s that Foerign Policy is an issue, that Islam has a solution to world Problems?

      Foreign policy is an issue for me too. But I don’t see the solution in killing innocent people. Don’t you see it as a problem when a large part of people from your “community” see killing innocent people as a totally legitimate exercise?

      If Islam has a solution to the world’s problems, why not lead by example? Blaming the west for the mess that are the Middle Eastern countries is not good enough because those countries are propped up by the very clerics that the MCB and others invite over.

      I am taken back by your little knowledge regarding Islam, you might know more but through these type’s of discussion I really hope we can learn from each other’s faith, opinions and so on.

      Thanks, but you haven’t answered the question there. If a large enough group of people in any one “community” believed that killing innocent people is legitimate, then we have a right to be worried about them. I don’t think most Muslims in Britain are as stupid as you make out though.

      In a recent poll most British Muslims:
      1) Did not see Iraq and Afghanistan as primarily to blame for terrorists
      2) Said Blair should do more to reign in radical groups
      3) Did not believed the MCB represented their views.

      And I agree with all three of them. So I’d say I’m more in tune with Muslim opinion than you are my friend.

      The education system needs to be reformed to be allowed for a more in-depth understanding of Islam, The Society we live in, the education in our schools and so on.

      It’s also down to how the imams teach and what they choose to concentrate on. If they taught more about the humanitarian aspects of Islam then the likes of Hizb ut Tahrir would have less of an impact.

      The leaders have no vision, and the youth follow suit. Why are the Muslim Community failing extensively in education? Why are the Muslim’s not working towards building a good society in which they live in.

      These are the same questions I ask Bayah. I want people to provide better leadership but we are not getting it. And yet you defend the very “leaders” who are letting Muslims down, which I find bizarre.

    52. Sunny — on 10th July, 2006 at 4:42 pm  

      Thanks seekeroftruth - agree on HuT completely.

      I remember having a debate with HuT on the Pakistani channel about Shabina Begum. The HuT representative said they defended Shabina Begum because they believed in letting people intepret religion in their own way.

      Sure, I say, but HuT won’t allow that freedom to other Muslims will they? In their Khalifah Muslim women don’t have a choice but to wear a Jilbaab. How is that religious freedom? As many people have pointed out, the west allows Muslims more freedom to practice their religion than the Middle East does. Why? Because they believe in letting people letting them live their lives how they want.

      The likes of HuT sell you a utopia based on intellectually bankrupt and contradictory arguments that are easily destroyed. Most Muslims don’t fall for them. The ones that do want to think they’re reading intellectually sophisticated stuff because they’re desperate for “an intellectual answer” to all their frustrations.

      By the way Bayah - I pointed you to a link about Hizb ut Tahrir air-brushing their claims on the internet. On that is a link to their constitution which I’ve saved on here since they took it off their website (right after a debate I had with them on PTV Prime where they invited me to read it funnily enough).

    53. seekeroftruth — on 10th July, 2006 at 4:44 pm  

      Bayah: My concern is that organizations like MAB/MCB want to talk about human rights for Muslims in UK but their ‘brothers in Egypt and Pakistan’ would be happy giving second class status to non-Muslims in those countries. There is hardly any discussion among conservative Muslims about the damage which ‘shariah’ can incur if it is emplyed in any society. And most of the political Muslim groups have an obsession with Shariah. Instead of using Islam as moral guide they are more keen on enforcing theor own narrow minded visions on the whole of society. If they want to do that then there needs to be an open and frank discussion on the negative aspects of Shariah. Much of shariah has less to do with basic Quranic principles and more with opinions of medieval scholars. For example in classical traditional law there is death for leaving Islam. Now even well meaning really nice people like Zaid Shakir will hesitate to outrightly say they hey classical scholar’s view is outdated and lets put more emphasis on quran’s ‘there’s no compulsion in religion’ stance. They will seldom speak out against the afghan apostate issue etc clearly.

    54. Refresh — on 10th July, 2006 at 6:39 pm  

      Mirax

      “Thank you Seeker for indirectly answering the question that refresh avoided :”

      I hadn’t avoided it - can’t say I saw you pose it.

    55. mirax — on 10th July, 2006 at 8:01 pm  

      >can’t say I saw you pose it.

      I did but you were in a hurry, so ok.

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