Anjem Choudhary & co are good at trolling media


by Sunny
21st October, 2009 at 3:25 pm    

On Saturday 31st October Islam4UK – the new name for Anjem Choudhary’s previous proscribed Al-Muhajiroun is holding a ‘March 4 Shariah’ in London, which will end in Trafalgar Square. These people are an extremist group who I believe should be banned. And so the march should not be allowed.

What’s interesting is how much attention that media and other bloggers pay to these nutjobs, who are the clearest example of real-life trolls. See this page where they actually illustrate how Trafalgar Sq could be changed once these people have taken over. You can almost imagine the sniggering that took place when doing this, in anticipation of right-wing outrage. The Daily Express has naturally been baited. Let’s see who else follows.

Update: Inayat Bunglawala is trying to organise a counter-demonstration against these people. Excellent stuff – I think everyone should support that. I might head down too.
[h/t KB player in the comments below]


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  1. Gerry — on 21st October, 2009 at 4:01 pm  

    How can the always-good-for-a-bitter-chuckle and irrepressible Choudhary and His Pals be banned if they change their group’s name every twenty minutes?

    One is reminded of that silly Japanese game: whacking moles that emerge a second later from another hole.

    Nobody would be surprised to see them rebadged as Muslims for World Peace next week and as South Mimms Young Conservatives the week after next.

  2. saj — on 21st October, 2009 at 5:44 pm  

    Fact is Anjum Choudry Al Muhajerun who number less than 50 nationally are so hated by the UK Muslim community that they have been banned from every mosque and have been chased and beaten up literally since the 1990’s especially in the North and they will never get support from UK Muslims (that’s why you never see them up North but that’s another whole topic altogether). It’s a shame that this has not been publicised and very few people except Muslims are aware of this. People really need to know that the UK Muslim community have been fighting this tiny vociferous Minority for the last 15 years! Out of over a thousand mosques in the country they were only able to preach at one i.e. Finsbury Park Mosque and that was only after they physically beat up the trustees and took it over. Thankfully the mosque is now back with the trustees after successful legal action. That’s why they are always on the streets or talking to the media who lap it all up, Anjum Choudry is not even a trained qualified Islamic Scholar in fact he did law at uni before he became a looney.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1051304.ece
    Many Muslims believe they are MI5 agents used as a honey trap or agent provocateurs. Ask yourselves this, why is Anjum Choudry never arrested??? Why do high profile MPs call for action against them and then nothing happens and you never hear about it ever again? Why do they only pop up at the most opportune moments cause extreme offence and then disappear again? Why are they on first name terms with the media/journalists? Why are they portrayed as if they have support from and speak for the UK Muslim community? This whole outfit stinks!

  3. douglas clark — on 21st October, 2009 at 8:29 pm  

    Is this the same group that were protesting against Geert Wilders outside the House of Commons?

    I’m beginning to think that there are only about a hundred radicals on any side and that they are all being rather overindulged on their 15 minutes of fame.

  4. Wyrdtimes — on 21st October, 2009 at 9:11 pm  

    Optimistic outlook there Douglas.

    According to “Day by Day” today on BBC R4 a third of “British” Muslims wanted the death penalty carried out on Salman Rushdie for writing a novel.

    Pretty extreme don’t you think? And decidedly pre 9/11

    Those protesters against Geert Wilders the other day were saying the punishment for insulting the so called Prophet is death. If the Radio 4 programme was correct (and indeed if I heard correctly) then a third or so “British” Muslims appear to agree with them.

  5. Sunny — on 21st October, 2009 at 9:20 pm  

    Is this the same group that were protesting against Geert Wilders outside the House of Commons?

    Yup.

    According to “Day by Day” today on BBC R4 a third of “British” Muslims wanted the death penalty carried out on Salman Rushdie for writing a novel.

    In the heat of the moment people say stupid things. That was 20 yrs ago almost. Things have changed,

  6. douglas clark — on 21st October, 2009 at 10:10 pm  

    Wyrdtimes,

    I am an optimist, mainly.

    I am almost getting bored with saying this, but once more unto the breech:

    I do not recognise the confrontational, Gates of Vienna shit that some on the fascist right spout as valid, nor do I think there is a coming Sharia State about to happen in the UK.

    Both extremes don’t equate to my reality.

    I see men and women of different backgrounds holding hands and looking into each others eyes. I see people of the same background doing exactly the same. I see that whenever I wander around my city centre at night. And, as far as I can tell, no-one, much, gives a fuck.

    You, sir, are one side of a wind up, and Al Margarine are on the other. You could jointly advance an army of perhaps a couple of hundred people each in the UK, but, because you are ‘media interesting’ – are you fuck – the camera loves you. That is your Warhol moment of fame.

    And they buy your self serving, self masturbatory fantasies of pulling or pushing extremism as though it was mainstream.

    I call you, and you opposite numbers and the 24 hour rolling media as Kings with no clothes. You are bereft of judgement, bereft of the conflict all three of you want and a pain in the arse.

    On which subject, how many folk do you think the Scottish Defence League will manage to attract to their demo in Glasgow? If their Twitter site is anything to go by, not too many.

    I have never met a Muslim that scared me. As opposed to the bogey men on the TV. I’d be hard pushed to find a Muslim that has shared a comment column with me that has actually scared me either, rather than just pissed me off, something all extremists seem to be able to do, especially if they have LLB (Hons) after their name.

    Frankly, I think everyone needs to understand a bit better ideas like mutual tolerance and stuff like that.

    And it would be good if Muslims did stand up to their own extremists. Much as I am doing to mine. Most Muslims I know couldn’t kill a chicken, but then neither could I.

  7. Reza — on 21st October, 2009 at 10:36 pm  

    “In the heat of the moment people say stupid things. That was 20 yrs ago almost. Things have changed,”

    Let’s see if I understand this. Are you saying that, ‘The Vast Majority Of Moderate Muslims’ are more ‘moderate’ today than 20 years ago?

    Douglas

    You really have absolutely no idea whatsoever about Islam or Muslims. Your ‘Kumbaya’ bullshit is not based upon rationality or truth. But I bet it gives you a nice warm feeling inside.

    Do you think that it’s just an unfortunate coincidence that virtually every Muslim majority country in the world is a sh*thole? Could Islam really have absolutely nothing to do with it?

  8. jookymundo — on 21st October, 2009 at 10:51 pm  

    Reza @ 7

    Do you think that it’s just an unfortunate coincidence that virtually every Black majority country in the world is a sh*thole? Could being black really have absolutely nothing to do with it?

  9. KB Player — on 21st October, 2009 at 10:54 pm  

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/21/al-muhajiroun-protest-london

    Inayat Bung is trying to organise a counter demonstration.

    There’s no reason why Muslims or anyone else should
    get out of bed to go and confront Choudhary and his merry men. It’s as if you’re dancing to the tabloid tune. On the other hand, I can see how it would be politic to do so.

  10. douglas clark — on 21st October, 2009 at 10:58 pm  

    Reza,

    You are one of the people that piss me off. You seem to think you constitute a ‘correct view’ or something, and when I tell you that that doesn’t equate with my reality I am the one living in the Matrix.

    I can only tell you what I see, feel and think. If you’d prefer me not to report on that, then feel free to continue to write the confrontational, bullshit that you do.

    Apart from on the internet, what Muslims have you been exposed to?

    The, admittedly, small number of Muslims I have known, have been nothing like your béte noirs. They have been folk that wouldn’t harm a fly. They have been people that have tried to live their own lives. They have been abstractly perhaps, good people. They have seen outwith their religion to a common humanity. They do not hate. I have seen that in my own life.

    What the fuck are you about?

  11. Sunny — on 21st October, 2009 at 11:02 pm  

    Let’s see if I understand this. Are you saying that, ‘The Vast Majority Of Moderate Muslims’ are more ‘moderate’ today than 20 years ago?

    Yes.

    Also, going by your logic – Iran is a bit of a shithole. Ergo, all Iranians, which apparently includes you, must be stupid or mad right?

  12. douglas clark — on 21st October, 2009 at 11:26 pm  

    Hmm..

    This is probably the moment to suggest that Reza has no moral compass whatsoever.

    Reza:

    You really have absolutely no idea whatsoever about Islam or Muslims. Your ‘Kumbaya’ bullshit is not based upon rationality or truth. But I bet it gives you a nice warm feeling inside.

    Err, no, it doesn’t. I bet your idea that Islam or Muslims are all violent gets you to ejaculate?

    Eh!

    Your ‘Kumbaya’ bullshit is not based upon rationality or truth.

    Err.. I think it does. From the entirely sane chap at Luton who would have invited the EDL in for a cup of tea. Err.. was he was one of these Muslims?

    Or what about your idea that Muslims are all the same:

    Do you think that it’s just an unfortunate coincidence that virtually every Muslim majority country in the world is a sh*thole?

    You see City Circle and Al Margarine as the same thing?

    Get a fucking life.

  13. damon — on 22nd October, 2009 at 12:25 am  

    Any chance of UAF turning out against this?

    I’d like to see (the lovely) Yusuf Islam tearing these guys off a strip. Telling them to stop trying to encourage young muslims into this nonsense.

  14. douglas clark — on 22nd October, 2009 at 2:38 am  

    Al Margarine represent no-one very much. Perhaps we, pickled politicians, should say so.

    Perhaps it is time to point out that the extremists, the BNP racists and their opposite numbers have sweet fuck all to do with what this space is meant to be about?

    I had, have potentially, a huge amount of time for this space, on the basis that Jews and Muslims could discuss stuff without alienating each other.

    That struck me as a useful space. It was a space that Sunny attempted to keep open. It was a space that commentators closed down.

    I hate all of the folk that saw that as a success. Fuck the lot of you.

    You have tried to close down the last voice of reason.

    Thanks a fucking lot.

  15. Sunny — on 22nd October, 2009 at 3:19 am  

    calm down douglas – we know Reza is a twat. No point getting all heated up about it mate.

    damon – I think that would be a good idea.

  16. douglas clark — on 22nd October, 2009 at 4:13 am  

    Sunny @ 15,

    I take your point. Sorry for swearing all over your blog. I apologise if I get angry sometimes, it is certainly not at you. For, whilst I may disagree with you on the details, I genuinely think we agree on the substance.

    Am I allowed to disagree with Reza though?

    I do, really think, that the aggressive nature of some of your newer commentators is a complete anathema to the sort of space you created here.

    Which was about finding common ground, rather than identifying a battlefield. That is perhaps why I have become a sweary tit. I do not recognise this as the place it once was.

    I believe, as I think you do too, that extremism of either persuasion, is contrary to where we want to position ourselves.

    Am I wrong about that?

  17. douglas clark — on 22nd October, 2009 at 4:38 am  

    I see myself, contrary to what you might think, still in the mainstream of what Pickled Politics has always been about. It is the rightful opening up of the comments to all sorts of shades of opinion that force everyone to sharpen up their game. AFAIK a certain LLB (Hons) has only told me that they’ll be out to get me after they gain power, ha ha!

    What do you think my reaction to that should be?

    Demure?

    If Pickled Politics is open to that sort of shit, you have got to expect a kick back. I will not, willingly, be fucked about by Reza nor Lee Barnes.

    When these folk become acceptable commentators on here, the gloves have to come off. I doubt you would see it differently, if you thought about it a bit.

    If you want an open comments column, which I agree with, then it ought to be genuinely open. But idiots ought to be open to every bit of calumny I am capable of throwing at them.

    Least, that’s what I think.

    I respect this place, they do not.

  18. Binky — on 22nd October, 2009 at 7:21 am  

    STICKING UP FOR REZA

    Isn’t Reza actually FROM a Muslim county himself? He might be a Zoroastrian or a Christian or some other subspecies of Iranian non-Muslim. Not that it matters; what does matter is that he knows whereof he speaks and someone like Douglas doesn’t.

    Those of us who actually live day-to-day in Muslim countries seldom permit ourselves the cartoonish simplification of thought that leads Reza to call them ‘shitholes’ but if we have any sense we recognise that even in the ‘best and most civilised’ of Muslim countries – Tunisia, Turkey, Malaysia, Morocco [for example] – the rights of the citizenry aren’t worth much compared to the rights on offer in the Anglosphere, the EU and Free World countries such as Korea [RoK] and Japan.

    When a Muslim believer murders a Turkish-Armenian journalist or a Dutch political activist he genuinely believes that he will “receive a big reward from Allah.”

    Reza, for all his crudity of expression, has grasped this simple fact and Douglas hasn’t.

  19. douglas clark — on 22nd October, 2009 at 8:22 am  

    Binky,

    Jolly good. You think I am quite that stupid? It is the freedoms that you identify that I want to protect, whether it is attacked from the extreme right or the extremely religious. For neither are mainstream, although you could be forgiven for thinking otherwise.

    And it matters not where you were born or what your background is. What matters is accepting other people for what they are. And not assuming a default position of thinking the worst about them. And it is that centralist position that is so hard to defend, so exposed to the sort of shit you just wrote, that sometimes it doesn’t seem particularily worthwhile.

    However.

    If both Reza and Lee Barnes end up hating me, I will consider that a victory for moderation. Especially if the Margarine lite flash mob that appear here quite often also thought that.

    Fuck the lot of them, for they do not represent me, and I doubt very much that they really represent you either.

    It is you, sir, that fails to understand what is at stake.

  20. douglas clark — on 22nd October, 2009 at 8:45 am  

    Binky,

    In your own words:

    Some steadfast souls cling, and have steadfastly clung, unswervingly – indeed, incurably – to crank politics.

    For them , there MUST be a Heaven rather like that depicted in Jehovah’s Witness literature, but full of Marx and Engels and Trotsky and the whole gang.

    Crank politics and crank religion is a bit broader than just the NF. It infects extremists everywhere. The Mumbai gunmen, the tit that blew up the Admiral Duncan, the 9/11 and 7/7 folk, Robert Cottage, Omagh, Lockerbie, the list of nutters is near endless.

  21. Reza — on 22nd October, 2009 at 1:02 pm  

    Douglas

    I was rude and confrontational. That was wrong and counterproductive to any valid argument I wanted to make and I sincerely regret it.

    However, as Blinky said, I do know a bit about Islam having been born a Muslim and spending the first part of my life living in Iran. I’ve also been a frequent visitor to that country; over 10 times in the last 8 years. I’ve travelled through Turkey (Istanbul to Van) and visited Egypt, Morocco, Bahrain and Syria. And in all these experiences, I have beern able to do something that you will never be able to do. Say “Salaam Alaikum” and have a discussion with a Muslim as another ‘Muslim’.

    And these are discussions that I’ve relished. I’ve had discussions with cabbies, Mullahs and even an Ayatollah. I’ve debated with Muslims online. I’ve written letters to Muslim organisations such as the Muslim Council of Britain. Why? Because I want to know, need to know what Muslims really believe.

    One of the things I’ve admired about this site is the way people have been intelligent enough to disregard the slippery answers given by outfits like the BNP. To probe deeper. To ask the RIGHT questions in order to really understand what BNP supporters REALLY believe.

    However, this ‘intelligence’ is simply thrown out of the window when it comes to Islam. No matter how much evidence is presented to prove otherwise, some one like Sunny will come out with an outrageous statement such as:

    “In the heat of the moment people say stupid things. That was 20 yrs ago almost. Things have changed,”

    To describe the fact that huge numbers of British Muslims supported the killing of Salman Rushdie.

    They wouldn’t today? In an environment where all major Sunni and Shia schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that apostasy is punishable up to and including the killing of the convert.

    And then you get a poll conducted by the Policy Exchange last year which suggested that over a third of young British Muslims believe that the death penalty should apply for apostasy.

    And you can even read painfully inoffensive and weasel-worded BBC articles like this to be in no doubt that a significant number of Muslims hold some utterly vile views:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7355515.stm

    Yet people like you and Sunny pretend that these issues do not exist.

    Believe me Muslims, devout Muslims, are every bit as slippery when it comes to answering questions about their beliefs as the BNP. I know. I also know the questions one must ask in order to expose them. You clearly do not. So despite all the evidence to the contrary you bury your head and support the sort of utterly baseless pronouncements people like Sunny make.

    And in doing so you do freedom a great disservice. You become an enemy to the millions of Muslims who live in fear of challenging Islam. And especially, you become a complicit in the persecution of countless ex-Muslims like me, who even in Britain are justifiably frightened of ever admitting to those lovely Muslim cabbies you adore that they are no longer Muslims. Because they just might be that “third of young British Muslims” who believe that you should die.

    Shame on you.

  22. BenSix — on 22nd October, 2009 at 1:23 pm  

    Have you read the page where they detail their plans to close down strip joints and turn them into schools for women? Lest anyone think there’s a progressive hint to that, the lessons mentioned are “beauty” and “midwifery”.

  23. Paul — on 22nd October, 2009 at 2:18 pm  

    It is not currently a criminal offence to be extremist, or to be Islamist, or to be an Islamist extremist. It is certainly not a criminal offence to demand the death penalty for Salman Rushdie, or for anyone else. Millions of white working-class people in the UK want Ian Huntley hanged, and will tell you so openly, if you ask.

    So that is one reason why this group doesn’t get arrested: they have not broken the law. Of course many people are shocked by extremist views, even if in this case the views seem to have been concocted, just to shock. Public outrage is not, however, the law.

    If Sunny (and others) think certain views should be banned, he should be explicit about that. But then he should explain, why he thinks the BNP (which he claims to oppose) should be entitled to say whatever they like, whenever they like – and also on national television at public expense.

  24. persephone — on 22nd October, 2009 at 2:28 pm  

    @22 That is funny. So what all women (or in BNP terminology, wenches) are largely about is looks and babies. And the BNP simplistic correlation is that beauty leads to babies….

  25. Reza — on 22nd October, 2009 at 2:33 pm  

    “It is certainly not a criminal offence to demand the death penalty for Salman Rushdie…”

    Incitement to murder is certainly a criminal offence. In Islam an apostate becomes ‘mortat’. That means that a pious Muslim can kill an apostate and enter paradise. Indeed Khomeini (who a lot of people forget was a highly revered Shia scholar) said that all Muslims had a duty to kill Rushdie if they came across him.

    Therefore, your moral equivalence argument regarding Huntley is disingenuous, albeit predictable. People supporting his execution are speaking of a state-conducted death penalty for a child murderer.

    I happen to disagree with the death penalty. But let’s remember, Muslims are talking about the death penalty for ‘thought’ or ‘speech’ crime, not murder.

  26. Paul — on 22nd October, 2009 at 2:56 pm  

    The comments on the Lithuanian DrÄ…sius Kedys case (see Youtube for instance) are an interesting comparison with Muslim calls for the death penalty. Kedys shot a judge on the street in cold blood, believing that the judge had raped his young daughter. He went on the run, and has become something of a hero for the populist right and the tabloid press.

    Anyone who reads news blogs and news forums, knows that high-profile child sexual abuse cases trigger a wave of calls for the death penalty, both for the offences in general, and for named individuals. This populist sentiment is tolerated, and often tacitly encouraged, by the right. It is therefore inconsistent to complain that Muslims “support the death penalty” or that they advocate it for specific offences, or for specific individuals.

  27. Reza — on 22nd October, 2009 at 3:08 pm  

    Paul

    Are you really going to waste everyone’s time trying to argue some moral equivalence between supporting the death penalty for child murderers and supporting the death penalty for someone who wishes to change their religion or criticise Islam?

    Usually Muslims and apologists get into arguments about apostasy being the same as treason. That’s at least trickier for the layperson (but not for me) to counter.

    But child murderers?

    Come on. Get real.

  28. Paul — on 22nd October, 2009 at 3:22 pm  

    It is not a criminal offence to advocate the death penalty for any crime. It does not have to be for murder, or rape, or terrorism, or any of the usual suspects. That’s the legal position.

    Reza implies that white western people only call for the death penalty in murder cases, and that the nasty immigrants demand it for other crimes. But that is simply not true: child sexual abuse cases trigger calls for the death penalty for the abuse itself, or indeed for anyone categorised as paedophile.

    Here’s an example from Youtube on the case I mentioned: the child was not killed, the abuse allegation against the judge is itself unsubstantiated, and the father/killer is a gangster. Nevertheless, we see these kind of reactions:

    Maximum respect from Hungary!
    Death by firing squad to ALL pedofiles! ….

    kill’em all, fucking childfuckers!!!
    Full support from Poland!!!

    Angry demands for the death penalty are absolutely not limited to Muslims.

  29. Paul — on 22nd October, 2009 at 3:34 pm  

    It is perfectly legal to support the death penalty for “someone who wishes to change their religion or criticise Islam”. That’s the law, as it is. It would also be legal to support the death penalty for walking on the grass in public parks, or for any other existing, past, or future offence.

    Obviously, there are many people, who think it is wrong for Muslims to advocate the death penalty, but that is simply part of their general opposition to Islam. (Which is also perfectly legal).

  30. Reza — on 22nd October, 2009 at 3:37 pm  

    Paul

    “Angry demands for the death penalty are absolutely not limited to Muslims.”

    No. But only Muslims, in any significant numbers, support killing someone for changing their religion, trying to persuade others to change their religion, or for criticising Islam.

    i.e. for ‘thought’ or ‘speech’ crime.

    And they do so because their religion, Islam, appears to sanction it.

    So that makes Muslims unique in anyone’s opinion.

    But please do, if it makes you feel better, continue with your moral equivalence arguments regarding ‘non-Muslim’ support for the death penalty for child murderers.

  31. Binky — on 22nd October, 2009 at 3:46 pm  

    “Tainted source! Tainted source!” they cried.

    Aha, but is it TRUE or not?

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/10/shock-horror-toronto-imam-a-misunderstander-of-islam-preaches-hatred-of-jews-and-christians.html

    Some will find it of interest!

  32. Binky — on 22nd October, 2009 at 4:00 pm  

    WEll, we clicked on the horrid story from Lithuania but we are none the wiser.

    Lithuania is emerging into the light of day after the long years as the Lithuanian SSR but such cases as the one cited happen in the more backward parts of Italy and among tinkers ['Travellers'] in Ireland.

  33. dave bones — on 22nd October, 2009 at 4:05 pm  

    There is currently no such thing as thought crime in this country. If someone wants to fantasize about getting rid of the statue of Nelson in Trafalgar square they are allowed to. If people want to fantasize about an all white britain they are allowed to. Surely freedom of speech should mean that people are free to speak and others free to listen. It was a stupid idea gagging the BNP in the first place. There is no need to be frightened of what people say.

    I think there were about 150 people at the last Islam4UK meeting I went to, none of them frightened me though I did hear a Muslim who challenged them claim a few of the group spoke threateningly to him afterwards.

    Is the actions of this small group causing trouble for the wider Islamic community in the UK? Mr Choudharry’s phone number is on his website. Call him. See what he says.

  34. Sunny — on 22nd October, 2009 at 4:24 pm  

    I do know a bit about Islam having been born a Muslim and spending the first part of my life living in Iran

    which according to you is a shithole of a country presumably because of the people there….? So what does that make you Reza?

  35. Sofia — on 22nd October, 2009 at 4:45 pm  

    Reza,
    there are lots of things that Islam ‘appears’ to support because they are being perpetuated by people who do not understand its spirit and so follow blindly, everything to the letter without thought to consequence…and what’s worse, is that ppl like you always seem to follow that interpretation rather than seeking other (normative) interpretations that do not perpetuate stupid stereotypes. Rather like the blind leading the blind.

  36. Reza — on 22nd October, 2009 at 4:58 pm  

    “which according to you is a shithole of a country presumably because of the people there….? So what does that make you Reza?”

    Here we go again. When you haven’t got the smarts to attack an argument, you attack the man instead.

    But I’ll indulge you. Yes, I have no doubt whatsoever that Iran is a sh*thole because of the culture and values of many of the people who live there. Decent, charming and hospitable people who nevertheless have created a corrupt, oppressive and dysfunctional society due to the unfortunate fact that a high proportion of them believe in Islam as god’s law.

    And what’s worse, the stymieing of progress, hard work or achievement that comes from the Muslim fatalism that ‘Allah’s’ will defines ones life.

    And the very worst of all, the belief among so many Muslims that one may lie and cheat throughout their lives yet enter paradise by simply by praying 5 times a day, doing a Haj, fasting once a year and giving a few coins to the beggars that line the streets outside the Mosque during Islamic holidays.

    Many, many Muslims will recognise the description I give above. Ask them.

    A wise man once understood and wrote about this. It was Winston Churchill:

    “How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science – the science against which it had vainly struggled – the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

    I do not believe in Islam. I do not believe that the Qu’ran is the word of god. I do not believe in Sharia law. I do not believe that women are less equal to men.

    I believe in the Western values of democracy and freedom. Although I am not a Christian, I believe in the modern Christian value of treating others, as you would want to be treated yourself.

    That’s why I feel privileged to live in Britain. And that’s why I oppose the increasing influence of the backward and barbaric ideology that is Islam ever changing the culture and values of this country.

  37. Binky — on 22nd October, 2009 at 5:02 pm  

    # 34

    Sunny, there was – according to my father – a song sung by a touring ENSA singer-comedian [this was in Basra, 1941 or 1942] which was on the lines of “This is the arsehole of the world and I’m just passing through” and then the C of E chaplain complained to the C.O. and the naughty fellow was told to stick to mother-in-law jokes and delete “Arsehole of the world” from his repertoire.

  38. douglas clark — on 22nd October, 2009 at 6:22 pm  

    Reza @ 21,

    Fair enough.

    Can I quote you a bit of Kenan Maliks’ book ‘From Fatwa to Jihad’?

    On burning the Satanic Verses is Bradford:

    the image proclaimed, ‘I am a portent of a new kind of conflict and of a new kind of world’

    On where we were and where we are now:

    (A few years ago I was making a TV documentary on which the runner was a young, hip, street-wise Asian, just out of University. During a conversation I happened to mention ‘Paki-bashing’. ‘What is Paki-bashing?’ he asked, genuinely puzzled, never having heard the phrase. still less having experienced it’s effects – an indication of how much Britain has changed in the past thirty years.)

    Nothing is static.

  39. persephone — on 22nd October, 2009 at 6:28 pm  

    And Churchill was of immigrant stock too. His mother was American.

  40. Kulvinder — on 22nd October, 2009 at 9:03 pm  

    Therefore, your moral equivalence argument regarding Huntley is disingenuous, albeit predictable.

    Actually his contribution was the responce of the thread.

  41. Reza — on 23rd October, 2009 at 11:13 am  

    “And Churchill was of immigrant stock too. His mother was American.”

    Yes he was. Indeed there are suggestions that Churchill had Jewish ancestry on his mother’s side.

    So what? That doesn’t stop him from being one of the greatest Britons who ever lived. And a true Englishman.

    Immigration is a very good thing, as long as the rate is low enough and slow enough for immigrants to assimilate. Immigration is a very bad thing when the rate is so high and so fast that immigrants are able to form parallel societies within the host country and force unwanted change on the indigenous people’s values and culture.

    I bet Churchill’s brilliant and insightful analysis of the nature of Islam and the Muslim mind shocked a few people here.

    Today, Churchill’s outspoken rationality would be censored as ‘racism’ or ‘islamophobia’ by the enemies of free speech. And he would be maligned and ridiculed as a ‘nutcase’ by the liberal fascists of the political class.

    Despite the fact that millions of British people would agree with him.

  42. Reza — on 23rd October, 2009 at 12:55 pm  

    Douglas

    “Nothing is static.”

    No it isn’t. However, do you ever allow for the possibility that the future may not naturally become the happy-clappy multicultural love-in that you envisage?

    For decades the indigenous people of this country, people like you, have been beaten over the head with the ideology of multiculturalism. We start beating ‘racism’ out of (white) people when they enter nursery school. That part’s a good thing.

    Yet we have many other ‘communities’ in this country that have frighteningly high numbers of bigots within them. Some of them are culturally and religiously rooted in bigotry. Islam is rooted in bigotry and intolerance.

    But so successful has been your conditioning that you refuse to accept it. Because you might feel ‘racist’ if you do. And that wouldn’t be nice.

    A wise man once said that all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

    And denial is the same as doing nothing.

  43. Binky — on 23rd October, 2009 at 1:59 pm  

    Winston Churchill claimed his maternal grandmother’s grandmother was Iroqois; she – reputedly – had the habit of saying “It’s the Indian in me coming out” whenever she did anything ‘unladylike’ such as running up a flight of stairs or calling from an upstairs window.

    Sadly, historians who have researched the Churchill family tree have failed to find any supporting evidence.

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