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  • Hindu orgs slam BNP claims


    by Sunny
    19th October, 2009 at 5:00 pm    

    Various Hindu organisations have today released a statement, sent to me, denying claims they had been contacted by the BNP… or that they would support the party.

    The claim made by Nick Griffin that Hindus back BNP is totally without foundation. Hindu Council UK, the National Council of Hindu Temples and City Hindus Network have had no contact with the BNP and as a peaceful law abiding community we do not agree with Nick Griffin’s views or policies. We would also like to reiterate that we totally condemn all forms racism and religious intolerance

    Dr Rao
    Chair Hindu Council UK
    Sanjay Jagatia
    Gen Sec National Council of Hindu Temples
    Dhruv Patel
    Chair City Hindus Network

    Oh no! How will Nick Griffin spin this now? PS - I’ve also posted 20 questions for the BNP on Guardian CIF.


                  Post to del.icio.us


    Filed in: Race politics






    54 Comments below   |  

    Reactions: Twitter, blogs
    1. Leon Green

      RT @pickledpolitics New blog post: Hindu orgs slam BNP claims http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/6259


    2. Noxi

      Hindu orgs slam BNP claims | Pickled Politics » http://ow.ly/vke9 british national party nick griffin




    1. Mike Paddon — on 19th October, 2009 at 5:12 pm  

      Are you purposely being a twat and ignoring what Nick Griffin said? He did NOT say that every single hindu, hindu organization and hidu mouthpiece supported the BNP, he said Hindus, Sikhs etc. also supported the BNP, not EVERY ONE of them. Don’t let the facts get in the way etc.

    2. unseen — on 19th October, 2009 at 5:15 pm  

      I’ve read the 20 questions, and they’re good as a piece of anti-BNP publicity. But after seeing Boulton on Sunday, they don’t work as actual questions.

      In response, Griffin just says that he’s grown out of his most extreme views, or starts talking about civic and ethnic britishness, or denies that the party constitution says what it does.

      Journalists are struggling to lay a punch on Griffin in interviews - perhaps one reason why the Question Time visit is so troubling. We need different (and better) tactics for taking on the BNP when they’re actually in the room, compared to taking them on ‘on the doorstep’.

      One way might be to get past Griffin and expose more of the mid-ranking scumbags. Perhaps the BBC should invite some of the open neonazi nutcases that make up the rest of the BNP leadership onto Question Time?

    3. Morrigan — on 19th October, 2009 at 5:21 pm  

      So Suny, you have contacted a load of (male dominated) groups, asking them to speak on behalf of all the UK’s Hindus?

      Isn’t that contrary to the spirit of the ‘New Generation’ project.

      I haven’t heard Griffin state that any of these organisations have backed him, just that some ordinary Sikhs and Hindus back the BNP.

      Do these organisations speak for ALL Hindus?

    4. Narinder Purba — on 19th October, 2009 at 5:30 pm  

      Regardless of whether you are for or against Nick Griffin’s appearance on Question Time, it will, for the most part, make for compelling and dramatic viewing, which, as engaging as that may be, will render good political discourse redundant. It’s just that whenever the BNP appear on TV, they simply irk both guests and audience members alike and everyone gets taken in by a fever of - justified - anger. Of course this is understandable for they are the bete noir of all civilized and free-thinking people, but I do wish for more gentlemanly debate without the heckling. You wanna fight? Take it outside.

      Good questions though Sunny. I hope some of the panel pick them up!

    5. Narinder Purba — on 19th October, 2009 at 5:33 pm  

      Regardless of whether you are for or against Nick Griffin’s appearance on Question Time, it will, for the most part, make for compelling and dramatic viewing, which, as engaging as that may be, will render good political discourse redundant. It’s just that whenever the BNP appear on TV, they simply irk both guests and audience members alike and everyone gets taken in by a fever of - justified - anger. Of course this is understandable for they are the bete noir of all civilized and free-thinking people, but I do wish for more gentlemanly debate without the heckling. You wanna fight? Take it outside.

      Good questions though Sunny. I hope some of the panel pick them up!!!

    6. Ravi Naik — on 19th October, 2009 at 6:31 pm  

      Loved the 20 questions. Wish you had asked whether the BNP wishes to create a version of South African Apartheid in Britain, considering they are openly against miscegenation and have ditched repatriation of non-white British people.

    7. MixTogether — on 19th October, 2009 at 7:11 pm  

      Sunny your question about race mixing only concerns black and white people. Why have you selected only these 2 races?

    8. damon — on 19th October, 2009 at 7:58 pm  

      These kinds of 20 questions don’t work for me.
      As asking ”what will be your position about this, when you are in government?”, might easily be avoided.
      If I was a BNP spokesman I might reply that we saw no chance of attaining any kind of power any time soon, and that our party was not approaching these issues in that way.
      That the BNP at this time was more of a protest movement that had begun to stand in elections.

      Slippery they are indeed, and questions 1 to 3 can easily be dodged in an interview, by just refusing to answer them, or filibustering.

      Question 5 has been dealt with before on Pickled Politics. They are not so strict on purity.
      They don’t care if someone had a Polish grandfather, or has some Jewish, or Huguenot or non white ancestory. It’s more about how someone looks and their state of mind. They may becoming more like the EDL (I think), who clearly do not have a colour bar.

      I think on question 12 he has stated that people who are ‘civically British’ are full citizens.

      The culturaly British over the ethnically British argument is something that I have found grating when I’ve heard it being discussed on the radio.
      This massivly anti-racist radio talk show host has a field day when he gets some pro BNP supporters calling his programme.
      http://www.lbc.co.uk/james-obrien-3537
      He murders them and plays with them like a big kitten plays with a mouse.
      His nane is James O’Brien and he is sometimes on The Big Questions BBC sunday morning TV programme.
      Very smart, in his mid 30s and pays the top rate of tax. I like the bloke.

      I’m sure many of the other questions are good ones, but I find that I’ve already been turned off by some of the ones that seem superfluous and elitist.

    9. Refresh — on 19th October, 2009 at 8:58 pm  

      Good questions.

      I would question their policies on gays, and ask how long it would take them to get back to 1948?

    10. Sunny — on 19th October, 2009 at 10:51 pm  

      Sunny your question about race mixing only concerns black and white people. Why have you selected only these 2 races?

      because I’m racist against Asian people, innit.

      morrigan - not really. They released a statement to me… I didn’t even ask for it. Does it trouble you? awwww…

    11. MixTogether — on 20th October, 2009 at 7:57 am  

      But you must have seen Nick Cohen’s piece? Griffin has been using Asian attitudes to race mixing to back up his own arguments since at least 2001.

      Isn’t that why you don’t mention Asians in your question? Because it is embarrasing that the BNP can support their arguments in that way?

      How will you feel if he uses that defence on Thursday?

    12. persephone — on 20th October, 2009 at 8:50 am  

      Mixtogether @8

      Perhaps by citing figures of how that is changing with Asians, as it is from statistics I have seen - sorry cannot remember source (but presumably you have some?) - and from my own circle.

      And what about putting that in parallel with how long it took for attitudes to change ref: mixed couples as to white & black.

      And the difference with the BNP is that it would illegalise it through state policies

    13. persephone — on 20th October, 2009 at 9:16 am  

      The BNP’s homepage mentions (but does not repeat …) the 20 Questions & have generated 11 of their own in the interest of ‘debate’ - see below for those of you who have a policy (or just distate) of not visiting their site:

      “ October 19, 2009 by George Fanning

      Sunny Handal, the notorious Guardian scribbler, achieved an extraordinary new nadir in today’s edition, with a list of 20 questions which his very select group of readers are advised to ask of Nick Griffin on Thursday’s BBC Question Time programme. Mr Handal’s suggested questions are too lame to bear repetition, but he may have pioneered an interesting concept.

      Nationalist readers may wish to devise their own list of questions to fire at Establishment politicians and out of touch Champagne socialist journalists whenever they have the misfortune to encounter these beasts in the wild.

      Mr Handal advanced twenty questions in the Guardian, but in order to promote debate, here are just eleven suggestions to get everyone started.

      1. Why do Leftists seem to believe that the democratic voice of one million BNP voters should not be heard on the BBC?
      2. Why do Leftists promote mass immigration on such a vast scale that it will inevitably result in British people becoming an ethnic minority in their own country within 50 years?
      3. Why are Leftists so pleased to act as apologists for Muslim extremists who make no secret of their desire to destroy every facet of Western culture?
      4. Why do Leftists make common cause with a government which is hell-bent on eliminating every ancient British freedom, and has waged wars of aggression against several different nations?
      5. Why do Leftist journalists turn a blind eye to Fascist political violence by claw hammer and stave-wielding UAF thugs, who are openly sponsored, facilitated and supported by Labour Party and Tory politicians?
      6. Why do Establishment Leftists refuse to acknowledge that most victims of racist violence are drawn from the indigenous white British community?
      7. Why do Establishment Leftists think there is nothing wrong with hundreds of separate organisations existing specifically to advance the interests of black & minority ethnic people, but exhibit knee-jerk loathing at the mere concept of an organisation founded to promote the rights of indigenous white British people?
      8. Why do Establishment Leftists believe that Britain should import hundreds of thousands of foreign workers, while nearly three million British people languish on the dole?
      9. Why do Leftist Establishment journalists ceaslessly harangue Nick Griffin about the appalling 1940s Holocaust, but never, ever, challenge a swathe of senior Labour politicians to explain why they were proud Marxists and members of the Communist Party in the 1970s at a time when appalling Communist murder camps still existed in the Soviet Union?
      10.Why do Establishment Leftists find it acceptable for people to be hounded from public sector jobs and livelihoods solely on the basis of their lawful political affiliation?, and
      11. Why do Leftist politicians and journalists have no confidence whatsoever in the resilience of their own arguments during a free, democratic television debate?

      Regrettably, only question 11 seems to have a logical and straightforward answer. “

    14. persephone — on 20th October, 2009 at 9:17 am  

      The BNP’s homepage mentions (but does not repeat them …) the 20 Questions and has come up with 11 of their own in the interest of ‘debate’ which are below for those of you who have a policy (or just distate) of not visiting the BNP site:

      “ October 19, 2009 by George Fanning

      Sunny Handal, the notorious Guardian scribbler, achieved an extraordinary new nadir in today’s edition, with a list of 20 questions which his very select group of readers are advised to ask of Nick Griffin on Thursday’s BBC Question Time programme. Mr Handal’s suggested questions are too lame to bear repetition, but he may have pioneered an interesting concept.

      Nationalist readers may wish to devise their own list of questions to fire at Establishment politicians and out of touch Champagne socialist journalists whenever they have the misfortune to encounter these beasts in the wild.

      Mr Handal advanced twenty questions in the Guardian, but in order to promote debate, here are just eleven suggestions to get everyone started.

      1. Why do Leftists seem to believe that the democratic voice of one million BNP voters should not be heard on the BBC?
      2. Why do Leftists promote mass immigration on such a vast scale that it will inevitably result in British people becoming an ethnic minority in their own country within 50 years?
      3. Why are Leftists so pleased to act as apologists for Muslim extremists who make no secret of their desire to destroy every facet of Western culture?
      4. Why do Leftists make common cause with a government which is hell-bent on eliminating every ancient British freedom, and has waged wars of aggression against several different nations?
      5. Why do Leftist journalists turn a blind eye to Fascist political violence by claw hammer and stave-wielding UAF thugs, who are openly sponsored, facilitated and supported by Labour Party and Tory politicians?
      6. Why do Establishment Leftists refuse to acknowledge that most victims of racist violence are drawn from the indigenous white British community?
      7. Why do Establishment Leftists think there is nothing wrong with hundreds of separate organisations existing specifically to advance the interests of black & minority ethnic people, but exhibit knee-jerk loathing at the mere concept of an organisation founded to promote the rights of indigenous white British people?
      8. Why do Establishment Leftists believe that Britain should import hundreds of thousands of foreign workers, while nearly three million British people languish on the dole?
      9. Why do Leftist Establishment journalists ceaslessly harangue Nick Griffin about the appalling 1940s Holocaust, but never, ever, challenge a swathe of senior Labour politicians to explain why they were proud Marxists and members of the Communist Party in the 1970s at a time when appalling Communist murder camps still existed in the Soviet Union?
      10.Why do Establishment Leftists find it acceptable for people to be hounded from public sector jobs and livelihoods solely on the basis of their lawful political affiliation?, and
      11. Why do Leftist politicians and journalists have no confidence whatsoever in the resilience of their own arguments during a free, democratic television debate?

      Regrettably, only question 11 seems to have a logical and straightforward answer. “

    15. MixTogether — on 20th October, 2009 at 10:09 am  

      Persephone,

      statistically Asians are still at the bottom of the pile when it comes to mixed marriages, by a long way. Griffin knows this and that’s why he’s using it to back his own arguments.

      Yes, black and white people have set the standard when it comes to accepting mixed relationships, so it should not take the Asian group as long because they have a successful model to follow.

      The BNP’s policies on race mixing are a COMPLETE straw man here. Answer me this- who would you worry more about? A fringe political party with zero chance of ever forming a national government, or a group that is actively engaged, every day, in stamping out mixed relationships? Who poses the real, practical threat to race mixing?

      BNP members don’t carry out honour killings to prevent mixed relationships, so where is the REAL threat coming from, Persephone?

    16. Morrigan — on 20th October, 2009 at 10:35 am  

      Sunny,

      What troubles me is your hypocrisy.

      You preach to the government about not dealing with minority communities through self-appointed leaders, then you go and reproduce a press release from exactly the kind of groups you expect others not to deal with.

      Worse still, you have made the lazy assumption that those organisations speak for all Hindus. That is exactly the lazy thinking you have criticised in the past.

      No wonder people don’t have very high expectations of you.

    17. Morrigan — on 20th October, 2009 at 10:37 am  

      P.S. you asked for those 11 questions from the BNP.

      Any chance you will answer them?

    18. Ravi Naik — on 20th October, 2009 at 10:58 am  

      statistically Asians are still at the bottom of the pile when it comes to mixed marriages, by a long way. Griffin knows this and that’s why he’s using it to back his own arguments… BNP members don’t carry out honour killings to prevent mixed relationships, so where is the REAL threat coming from, Persephone?

      I think you are starting to become rather offensive and annoying. Let me lay down the cards for you: Asians do not conspire to prevent race mixing in this country or commit honour killings: individual families do. Ok? To compare the BNP with Asians is just tasteless. This is the sort of thing one needs to explain BNP members, that Asians are not a homogeneous block that you can make gross generalisations.

      But let me point another flaw of your argument. You assume that Asian levels of intermixing should be the same as black-and-white. As I explained, I would expect them to be lower because people usually marry with people that share similar beliefs, and faith is something that is important to a lot of people, specially when children are a factor.

      So, rather than whining about the levels of intermixing, as if a big number was the ultimate goal (and it is not) - what is important is to log the level of marriages that are opposed by specific communities on the grounds that they are mixed. In other words, we want to ensure that individuals are free to marry to whom they want, including within their own community.

    19. persephone — on 20th October, 2009 at 11:45 am  

      Mixtogether @13 thanks for responding

      You have not answered the specific question, which is: since early substantive asian immigration to now, how many more marriages/relationships have resulted b/n white/asian and black /asian etc. It would be helpful if you have access to such figures from a creditable source & which shows progression over the years which would be a positive and affirmative aspect to show to all - that would be good, no?.

      Otherwise it is positioned as being at best static or non existent and that is hijacking the truth which is the cloudy area in which the BNP operate.

      “ black and white people have set the standard when it comes to accepting mixed relationships, so it should not take the Asian group as long because they have a successful model to follow.”

      Using that as the standard model. It has taken the first black population entering the UK at the start of slavery several 100′s of years ago to now. Though looking at the recent case in Lousiana where a JP has refused a mixed white/black couple a marriage licence (this makes 4 mixed race couples he has refused) shows it is by no means over or, an asian issue.

      You think that 50 odd years is too short to do what others have done in several centuries. What ideal shorter time span & volumes should Asians have done this in then?

      “Who poses the real,practical threat to race mixing? “

      Anyone with a backward attitude per se (includes asians,BNP sympathisers,US JP’s,anti-globalisers et al)

      As you want to pinpoint Asians, my thoughts are that once the backward generation die out (the last 50 years means that generation are nearing their end) it will evidence a bigger shift.

      “or a group that is actively engaged, every day, in stamping out mixed relationships? “

      Day to day a lot are engaged in being competitive with large 24 hour retailers, exam results, what to cook for dinner, mother in law/daughter in law gossip, design of their PVC nails. Y’know, life like other people.

      “BNP members don’t carry out honour killings to prevent mixed relationships.” Who poses the real, practical threat to race mixing”

      BNP would make miscegenation illegal and enforce it through state controls if they came to power. Mixed race children would be dropped over Africa. Their rule of thumb would be all encompassing within the UK. Plus looking at the speeches that Griffin hawks around worldwide - they seek to actively sell their ideas through a worldwide far right network.

      A minority of Asians commit honour killings. It is wrong & I am annoyed at any ‘cultural’ pusyfooting around it & forced marriage.

      One is a dying attitude because what they are doing is recognised as illegal & unacceptable by the majority. The other is an organised political group actively seeking to be legitimised & their policies legalised. Both are real. Both are practical. One has more active members - BNP has 11,000 UK members plus global aims & is being given a platform on a main TV programme.

      I’ve answered your questions. It would be courteous if you were to answer mine.

    20. MixTogether — on 20th October, 2009 at 11:45 am  

      RN i’m sorry you find it annoying but i won’t stop talking about this.

      You have not pointed out any flaw, you have just re stated your personal assumptions about what couples want. It is not what we find on the MT forum.

      Asian intermarriage levels should be much closer to the AVERAGE level among other minority groups, who also share different beliefs. Until they are, the BNP will continue to exploit that gap.

    21. MixTogether — on 20th October, 2009 at 11:48 am  

      P i can’t do your questions justice from my phone, will write full answers from home later i promise.

    22. fugstar — on 20th October, 2009 at 11:59 am  

      13.
      Why does mixed marriage have to be piled in the first place.

      A future more elegant vision of jigsawed, bricolaged society might need to factor in a lot of the childish lefts red herring issues.

      I hope the BBC airs more memories of the brixton riots. Parts of the race industry seem to be erring on the side of the lame.

    23. Ravi Naik — on 20th October, 2009 at 12:07 pm  

      This is easy.

      1. Why do Leftists seem to believe that the democratic voice of one million BNP voters should not be heard on the BBC?

      A lot of people on the Left, including Sunny, has supported the BBC decision.

      2. Why do Leftists promote mass immigration on such a vast scale that it will inevitably result in British people becoming an ethnic minority in their own country within 50 years?

      How did you estimate that? And oops… are you implying that British people are one single ethnic group? That’s not what the latest version of the BNP Language and Discipline manual says.

      3. Why are Leftists so pleased to act as apologists for Muslim extremists who make no secret of their desire to destroy every facet of Western culture?

      Some figures on the Left have been friends with some Islamists, that is true. I do not believe this is the general case. Though if you find this appalling, let me remind you that Nick Griffin is reported to have procured the help of distinct anti-Western figures, like Gaddafi, Khomeini and even Farrakhan,

      4. Why do Leftists make common cause with a government which is hell-bent on eliminating every ancient British freedom, and has waged wars of aggression against several different nations?

      Leftists have been in the front line in the anti-war movement. And if defending British freedoms is so important to you, why do you have neo-nazis like Mark Collett speaking on behalf of the BNP, saying that he prefered to live in Germany 1936?

      5. Why do Leftist journalists turn a blind eye to Fascist political violence by claw hammer and stave-wielding UAF thugs, who are openly sponsored, facilitated and supported by Labour Party and Tory politicians?

      Do you have proof of that? Of course you do. Take both parties to court.

      6. Why do Establishment Leftists refuse to acknowledge that most victims of racist violence are drawn from the indigenous white British community?

      Pakistanis in this country are 14 times likely to be vicims of racial violence than whites. If you are white, you have 0.3% chance of being a victim, while if you are Pakistani, you have 4.3%. This means that every 4 Pakistanis out of a 100 have suffered racial violence, compared to 3 out of 1000 whites.

      So, it is safer to be white in Britain than a Pakistani (or Indian or Black). Do you disagree with this?

      7. Why do Establishment Leftists think there is nothing wrong with hundreds of separate organisations existing specifically to advance the interests of black & minority ethnic people, but exhibit knee-jerk loathing at the mere concept of an organisation founded to promote the rights of indigenous white British people?

      There is nothing wrong in advancing the interests of any ethnic group,, and nobody makes a fuss for organisations that Welsh, English, Irish and Scottish interests. The problem is that the BNP wants to be government, and therefore it is supposed to represent the interests of all British nationals. Similarly, one would object if the Black Metropolitan Police Association became a political party running for government, and only work for the interests of the black police in Britain.

      8. Why do Establishment Leftists believe that Britain should import hundreds of thousands of foreign workers, while nearly three million British people languish on the dole?

      There are laws against this practice. Do these British people have the qualifications or are willing to do the jobs of those foreign workers? Or is this just another cheap rethoric that cannot be backed up?

      9. Why do Leftist Establishment journalists ceaslessly harangue Nick Griffin about the appalling 1940s Holocaust, but never, ever, challenge a swathe of senior Labour politicians to explain why they were proud Marxists and members of the Communist Party in the 1970s at a time when appalling Communist murder camps still existed in the Soviet Union?

      Nick Griffin has very recently been in the company of the ex-Klansman and anti-semite David Duke, and active neo-nazi Don Black who is the founder and webmaster of the largest neo-nazi forum called Stormfront, where BNP members meet and chat. If any senior Labour politician has similar links to Estalinists, I would like to know.

      10.Why do Establishment Leftists find it acceptable for people to be hounded from public sector jobs and livelihoods solely on the basis of their lawful political affiliation?

      I think anyone can understand that an Asian or Black parent would feel uncomfortable if their teachers or policemen was a member of the BNP. Personally, I do not agree with the decision of sacking people on the grounds of how they vote, and I would prefer that their job would be evaluated by their performance, including how they treat minorities.

      11. Why do Leftist politicians and journalists have no confidence whatsoever in the resilience of their own arguments during a free, democratic television debate?

      If you want to talk courage, let’s start with Nick Griffin. Why doesn’t he fight to keep the whites-only policy? Why doesn’t he say on TV that Asians and Blacks are racial foreigners and can never be British? (like he did in the Language and Discipline manual, but then quickly changed after when it was leaked - and said they can be British after all).

      Nick Griffin is a politician and a sell-out, and he is betraying the BNP ideology to make his party more appealing to voters.

    24. Kismet Hardy — on 20th October, 2009 at 12:11 pm  

      I have a question for the BNP.

      Pies.

      Now I realise that’s not a question, but I still want an answer.

      If you open up a pie, inside is meat in gravy.

      If you go to an Indian restaurant, you’ll find meat in gravy. Some of them are very bland.

      Now if I were to put said bland meat in gravy in a pie – would you eat it?

      Fuck me. Chicken tikka masala pie. What am I doing? What have I done? What have I created?

      I’m going to Dragon’s Den

    25. Morrigan — on 20th October, 2009 at 12:24 pm  

      Ravi Naik

      To compare the BNP with Asians is just tasteless.

      But if *certain/some* Asian people are directly responsible for breaking up more mixed relationships than the BNP, surely that makes them WORSE than the BNP?

      It doesn’t become any more tolerable just because *some* Asians are doing it, surely

    26. persephone — on 20th October, 2009 at 12:37 pm  

      @21 Would it be made with brown or white flour?

      If white you would need to ensure that they predominated over the brown flour ones. Having many brown flour ones may make them think that the invasion is nigh.

      And mixing of both flours would be tricky to get past the BNP miscegenation police – they would see that as an example of eroding their culture, identity and death of the white flour pie.

      But if you did too few that were mixed white & brown flour then you would be criticised by others for not integrating enough.

      As the saying goes, you can please a few people some of the time but cannot please all people all of the time.

    27. Paul — on 20th October, 2009 at 12:41 pm  

      The list of 20 questions is a complete waste of time.

      Sunny Hundal presents himself as an opponent of the BNP, yet he is resolutely opposed to any ban on the party, or any restrictions on its members, or any censorship of their views. That goes for a lot of the people who have contributed to the curious debate about the BNP and the media in Britain.

      Nothing you can ask, and nothing you can say, will inhibit the success of the BNP. Anti-Islam xenophobic-nationalist-populist parties have become part of the party-political system in western Europe, and so long as that system itself remains in place, these parties are here to stay.

      Debating with the BNP is futile, and ignoring them is also futile. There is simply nothing that can be done to alter the fact, that they have sufficient electoral support to continue their activities.

      Try to look at it this way. If someone compiled a list of 20 clever and relevant question about the Labour Party (e.g. “Where are the weapons of mass destruction which you insisted were present in Iraq?”), and you put those questions to the Labour Party, would it collapse? Would all its voters simply abandon it?

      If you can’t make mainstream parties disappear by clever debating tactics, then why should it work with the BNP, or any other similar party?

    28. Ravi Naik — on 20th October, 2009 at 12:41 pm  

      You have not pointed out any flaw…
      Asian intermarriage levels should be much closer to the AVERAGE level among other minority groups

      You should be focusing on the levels of opposition to intermixed marriages, not on the levels of intermixed marriages. This is a flaw, because you can’t use the latter to imply the first.

      Until they are, the BNP will continue to exploit that gap.

      I have no idea how the BNP can exploit that gap, and they certainly do not win points by publicly siding with parents who forbid their kids to marry on the grounds of race.

    29. Rumbold — on 20th October, 2009 at 12:53 pm  

      There are a few points to be made. Few Asian families kill their daughters, but a larger percentage do oppose interracial/religious marriages, because of the “what will people think?” This opposition can take many forms, from outright disowning to gossiping/shunning.

      Can the BNP get mileage out of this? Yes and no. They can point out the hypocrisy of people who criticise the BNP’s racial policies but who oppose mixed marriages, but such claims are useless to throw against most BNP-investigating blogs like Pickled Poltiics or Harry’s Place, as we have always criticised such backward attitudes. And if Griffin tries to make the comparison he will be effectively condoning HBV.

    30. Morrigan — on 20th October, 2009 at 1:12 pm  

      I have no idea how the BNP can exploit that gap, and they certainly do not win points by publicly siding with parents who forbid their kids to marry on the grounds of race.

      But it does help them to back up their own arguments.

      As I’ve said before, Asian families who oppose race mixing are useful idiots for the BNP.

    31. Ravi Naik — on 20th October, 2009 at 1:12 pm  

      In the USA, ‘Asians’ usually means East Asians, not cow-adoring chapatti-munchers, of course.

      Actually, this is changing rapidly. Indians were pretty much invisible in the US until recently, and if you look at the major Asian-American blogs, they now include “Indians” in the mix.

    32. Leon — on 20th October, 2009 at 1:52 pm  

      Try to look at it this way. If someone compiled a list of 20 clever and relevant question about the Labour Party (e.g. “Where are the weapons of mass destruction which you insisted were present in Iraq?”), and you put those questions to the Labour Party, would it collapse? Would all its voters simply abandon it?

      Christ alive you are one stupid fucking idiot…

    33. persephone — on 20th October, 2009 at 2:28 pm  

      @32

      Whats interesting is that the link is to an author (Sailer) who believes that blacks & Mexicans in America have lower IQs than whites.

      Go Griffin Go. Just the type of build up he needs before QT. Will he have to courage to raise such things at QT, methinks no

    34. Sofia — on 20th October, 2009 at 4:13 pm  

      20 questions were brill…

      Sunny is there anything you can do about the ads that appear on here…just saw another skin lightening one on this page..

    35. Jonah — on 20th October, 2009 at 4:39 pm  

      Persephone is right!

      Everyone knows that mixed-race Mexicans and blacks have much higher IQs than American whites.

      And blacks built the pyramids while dumb backward honkies were still crawling around in icy caves.

    36. Jonah — on 20th October, 2009 at 4:42 pm  

      Of course blacks built the pyramids:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Jeffries

      See?

    37. Sally Irving — on 20th October, 2009 at 4:47 pm  

      Clicking took me to the Jeffries and Ravitch controversy …

      http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/29/books/books-of-the-times-young-minds-force-fed-with-indigestible-texts.html

      Amusing!

      Only Amerikans could be such earnest dullards and make such mountains out of molehills.

    38. persephone — on 20th October, 2009 at 4:54 pm  

      “Persephone is right!”

      Don’t get carried away Jonah. It was said by a bigot called Sailer.

    39. persephone — on 20th October, 2009 at 4:56 pm  

      On ITN news Griffin was interviewed & used the words ‘coloured people’. Does not get out much does he (not in in this era).

      Makes more of a mockery to the BNP false claims that hindus & sikhs are backing the BNP. Well they are hardly likely to do so for someone who refers to non whites lumpenly as coloured people. He has obviously forgotten that he is meant to use ‘saleable language’ under the guise of the new BNP.

      Real intentions will out.

      I wonder what other gaffes he will make on QT.

    40. Sally Irving — on 20th October, 2009 at 5:16 pm  

      More interesting stuff about skin colour and smarts…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Levin

      Good?

    41. Snoopy the Dog — on 20th October, 2009 at 5:19 pm  

      One claim is that IQ Tests are culturally biased

      Various people have tried to make IQ tests - and other types of yests - more relevant

      http://www.snopes.com/humor/question/mathtest.asp

      but not everyone ‘gets’ the joke.

      Boo Hoo

    42. Arthur Jones — on 20th October, 2009 at 5:43 pm  

      The pyramids and much more, too:

      http://www.nbufront.org/html/MastersMuseums/LenJeffries/LenJeffriesVMuseum.html

      And no spacemen helped, either!

    43. Pete — on 20th October, 2009 at 6:30 pm  

      What exactly is the difference between ‘coloured people’ and ‘people of colour’?

      That the former is acceptable and the latter not is pretty idiotic and glaringly illogical - they’re both offensive in their fatuity. Both represent a kind of shorthand for identity construction that (at best) leads directly to lazy and complacent attitudes to other people.

    44. MixTogether — on 20th October, 2009 at 8:40 pm  

      Persephone,

      Back home now.

      I can’t answer your question about the specific numbers of mixed relationships over the last 60+ years. I have no budget and no time to conduct that kind of research, I’m sorry.

      The hard fact I CAN prove is that British Asians have by far the lowest levels of intermarriage of any ethnic group. As they are in fact the largest ethnic minority group, this is a strange statistical anomaly. However the anecdotal evidence I have seen over the last 5 years with MixTogether convinces me that the numbers are being kept ARTIFICIALLY low by intervention. They are not the natural levels that would arise if people were free to marry who they chose.

      Contrary to Ravi Naik’s hostile assumptions, I do not believe that levels should be made artificially high. I fully agree that it is a question of people’s freedom to choose, nothing more.

      But that freedom is far from available, especially to young people in Asian and middle eastern communities. See the murder case being tried at the Old Bailey- the murder of 15 year old Tulay Goren.

      I believe that too much time and energy and words are being expended on the BNP and their attitude to race mixing. The BNP is definitely NOT the problem. It was not the actions of the BNP that led me to set up MixTogether, and it is not their actions that all our members are struggling against day in and day out. It is Asian attitudes to race mixing that plague 95% of our members, and I won’t stay silent about it.

      The BNP will never be able to affect mixed couples directly. The people with the real power and influence are the minority families who oppose race mixing.

      And it’s obviously not ALL of them, but it definitely is MOST at the moment. All the Asians reading this know it, and it is disingenious of them to keep denying it.

      When I read articles like Nick Cohen’s and hear Nick Griffin pointing to Asian families to support his own bigotry, I know where the real problem lies.

      If a fraction of the energy spent moaning about the BNP was directed to changing attitudes in the Asian community, it would actually do more damage to the BNP because what they hate to see is happy and successful mixed couples.

      And maybe it did take centuries for black people to be free, but one thing is for sure: it would have taken centuries longer if it wasn’t for campaigners standing up for what they believed was right.

      I feel the same way about mixed couples, and I won’t stop campaigning.

    45. 5cc — on 20th October, 2009 at 9:28 pm  

      “What exactly is the difference between ‘coloured people’ and ‘people of colour’?”

      What’s the first word of each phrase?

      Once you’ve worked that out - bingo! You’ve got the difference.

    46. MixTogether — on 20th October, 2009 at 10:13 pm  

      Persephone,

      I typed a long response and submitted it twice, but it has not come through alas, and i’ve lost the copy now.

    47. persephone — on 20th October, 2009 at 10:36 pm  

      Mixtogether

      Thks for letting me know. I had the same problem on a long comment too.

      Admin - this needs fixing!

    48. MaidMarian — on 20th October, 2009 at 10:47 pm  

      Sunny - Organisations may or may not support the BNP or any other cause, individuals can do what they want.

      I suspect that several Hindus are on the BNP’s books, acknowledging that and commenting on that basis would make far more sense.

      There is no point in reductivism.

    49. Plummy Mummy — on 22nd October, 2009 at 10:20 am  

      Interesting to see the parts about mixed asian relationships having to be at the same level as black/white ones.
      IMHO black/white relationships are between people who have the same religious background and have grown in the same area and therefore, I assume share many of the same values. With asian/mixed relationships there is likely to be a question of different religions, different languages and different backgrounds. All this is based on my observations of my family and the growing number of mixed relationships in it of which there has been a dramatic rise in the last 20 years. I think that MixTogether would not see the people from my family as we are generally all accepted (once wedded and have kids). The members of my family who don’t agree with the mixing tend to keep their opinions to themselves and don’t committ any honour killings (an unheard of thing among our particular segment of Asians).
      Unfortunately, like ordinary ignorant people, the BNP lumps us with those asians that do perform honour killings. Very annoying.
      I want to hear the man. I am totally convinced he will be exposed for being the idiot he is.

    50. Anon — on 22nd October, 2009 at 12:13 pm  

      “I suspect that several Hindus are on the BNP’s books, acknowledging that and commenting on that basis would make far more sense.”

      It would make no sense at all, as the BNP’s whites-only membership rule excludes Hindus from being “on the books”. The BNP membership list has been leaked twice over the past year. How many Hindus can you identify there?

      Griffin began making a pitch for support among extreme right-wing Hindus and Sikhs years ago, on the basis of a common hatred of Muslims. He thought this would help the BNP deflect accusations that is a fascist organisation and that its campaign against Muslims is racist.

      But the problem he faced was that Hindus and Sikhs were excluded from party membership. Even the Sikh extremist Rajinder Singh, who has written for the BNP press, spoken at their meetings and appeared on their election broadcasts, hasn’t been allowed to join the party.

      Griffin first tried to change the BNP’s rulebook to admit non-whites back in 2002, and again in 2004, but he got nowhere. The BNP’s fascist core cadre who have gone along with other aspects of Giffin’s “modernisation” strategy couldn’t be persuaded to swallow that.

      Now, as a result of the EHRC’s court action - together with the provisions in the Equality Bill, which will ban political parties from racially discriminating over who they accept as members - Griffin will finally get his way. He’s called an Emergency General Meeting for next month where he will get the BNP to amend its rulebook to admit non-white members.

      And then no doubt a handful of extremist Hindus and Sikhs will indeed join the party.

      Griffin will make a big thing about this, just as he has over the fact that the BNP has a councillor of Jewish origin, in order to assert that the party has put its racist and fascist past behind it - all in the interests of more effectively pursuing its campaign against “mass Third World immigration” and “Muslim colonisers”.

    51. persephone — on 22nd October, 2009 at 6:41 pm  

      Mixtogether @44

      I was’nt asking for you to conduct a survey but if you had recourse to existing data. I recall seeing such data showing the increasing incidence of mixed races relationships/marriage in asians over time but cannot remember the source.

      We are playing to the BNP’s propaganda if we take their stance of depicting ALL asians to react in this way & position it as a static gaping difference to cause division. It needs to be counteracted to show it is 1) not as gaping as the BNP make out and 2) the gap is closing over time. I am not saying barriers exist when they do. Anyhow, I found the data below:

      Inter-ethnic marriages form 2% or 219,000 out of 10.3 million married couples in England and Wales (Census 2001). Of these, 198,000 included a White person. With the remaining 21,000 both partners were from different minority ethnic backgrounds.

      Breakdown of inter-ethnic marriages:
      White and Mixed race people 26%
      White person & Other Ethnic Group 15% *
      White and Black Caribbean marriages 12%
      White and Indian marriages 11%

      *Other ethnic group are from: Philippines, Malaysia, Japan, Vietnam & various middle-eastern countries.

      It seems the asians are ‘catching’ up in the inter-ethnic marriage ‘stakes’.

    52. MixTogether — on 22nd October, 2009 at 7:43 pm  

      Persephone, don’t disagree that things are improving slowly, i just want them to improve much faster.

      Until the problem elements of the Asian community are tackled on their record as robustly as the BNP are, that gap will remain artificially large and the catchup will be too slow.

      Hopefully Sayeeda Warsi will have something helpful to say tonight…

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