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    Absurd headline of the week


    by Sunny on 3rd July, 2006 at 2:45 pm    

    It’s only the beginning of the week but the competition is unlikely to match the Daily Telegraph’s opinion that ‘To hate America is to hate mankind‘ for absurd headline of the week. Not only do they do a good job of mangling the difference between the US administration and its people, it ignores the huge diversity of opinion within the population on what is right and wrong and how the government should behave.

    The article is a poor attempt to counter the results of an opinon poll that only 12% of Britons trust the US government to act wisely on the global stage. Who said Britons can’t see through Bush’s incompetence?

    Most Britons see America as a cruel, vulgar, arrogant society, riven by class and racism, crime-ridden, obsessed with money and led by an incompetent hypocrite.

    More than two-thirds who offered an opinion said America is essentially an imperial power seeking world domination. And 81 per cent of those who took a view said President George W Bush hypocritically championed democracy as a cover for the pursuit of American self-interests.

    Yup. That about sums it up.



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    110 Comments below   |  

    1. Don — on 3rd July, 2006 at 3:53 pm  

      Can’t find a link to the actual poll. I doubt if one of the questions was ‘Do you hate America?’, because that would be a meaningless question.

      It is not that difficult to reconcile distrust and disapproval of an administration’s policies with admiration for a country’s achievements and good will towards its frequently charming and generous people. You would need a pretty unsophisticated mind and poor critical thinking skills not to see the difference.

      Mind you, in large numbers they can be bloody annoying.

    2. StrangelyPsychedelique / Kesara — on 3rd July, 2006 at 4:04 pm  

      More than two-thirds who offered an opinion said America is essentially an imperial power seeking world domination.

      All Im gonna say is that I do not feel the US is an Imperial power. They lack the certain something European powers of Colonial Olde had, its just not in their blood to conquer and remain.

    3. j0nz — on 3rd July, 2006 at 4:08 pm  

      This is about what the public think of the American people.

      “as a cruel, vulgar, arrogant society, riven by class and racism, crime-ridden, obsessed with money”

      Sunny do you really think that sum’s up the American people?

      This is of course, a stereotype of the American people… I’d put about 180 other countries before America in the worst in the world catagory. I believe there are 193.

    4. Leon — on 3rd July, 2006 at 4:14 pm  

      God I really hate the way these idiots (and their lefty imperialist friends) like to conflate dissent against a government/government policy with hating an entire country of people (who you rightly point are divided about their own government anyway)…it’s the laziest form of straw man arguementing.

    5. StrangelyPsychedelique / Kesara — on 3rd July, 2006 at 4:29 pm  

      it’s the laziest form of straw man arguementing.

      I find it worringly prevelent here though….in fact my experiences have been that the Brits were more anti american than even the French, prior to the Bush administration taking power too.

    6. j0nz — on 3rd July, 2006 at 4:30 pm  

      I think the results of the poll are absurd, but why the headline?

      Sunny by saying that headline is absurd then your saying it’s not absurd to hate America!… What if I said it’s ok to hate Saudia Arabia or Iran??… these regimes and societies are many times more cruel & racist… And their leaders? Dang.

      Let us not forget the general public really are quite dumb.

    7. Sunny — on 3rd July, 2006 at 4:33 pm  

      Kesara - mate do you mind putting a space between the “/” in your name. Just helps break up the words on the top right.

      I think there is an element of lazy generalisation of British society, but I Georgue Bush certainly hasn’t helped. And America’s drift to the right and recent wars haven’t helped.

      I think our primary difference with the French is that on the ground level they don’t worry about the Americans and what they’re thinking as much as we do. They’re more into European politics and what the Germans are thinking than we are.

    8. Sunny — on 3rd July, 2006 at 4:36 pm  

      Heh - don’t have much respect for your fellow Britons eh j0nz. That is a bit patronising isn’t it, given you’re always railing against Muslims and how they’re destroying this country? In fact I bet the general perception of Britons is not much different to British Muslims.

      I think the original headline that ‘Hating America is hating humanity’ is absurd, as if they represent everyone. Certainly no one seems to raise an eyebrow when the Telegraph rails against Iran as if their President represents everyone.

    9. Amir — on 3rd July, 2006 at 5:27 pm  

      Sunny,

      “Certainly no one seems to raise an eyebrow when the Telegraph rails against Iran as if their President represents everyone.”

      Certainly no one seems to raise an eyebrow when Pickled Politics links to an avowed anti-Semite, viscious homophobe and paranoid conspiracy theorist on their ‘Comrades’ list. [Comrade Jamal is now a zealous supporter of the new totalitarian, anti-democratic and psychopathically violent Islamist regime in Somalia.]

      Certainly no one seems to raise an eyebrow when the Guardian rails against the Israeli community for having the cheek and audacity to “complain” when President Ahmedinejad announces he’s going to wipe Israel “off the map” in a tigerwave of heat and dust.

      Certainly no one seems to raise an eyebrow when Sunny Hundal complains about the racism and religious supremacism of Hindu nationalists in India while simultaneously ignoring President Ahmedinejad’s creepy denial of the Holocaust and his cosy conferences for renowned neo-Nazis like Robert Faurisson and David Duke.

      Certainly no one seems to raise an eyebrow when Sunny Hundal rails against the Telegraph for drawing our worthy attention to the plight of women, homosexuals, humanists, secularists, scholars, dissidents, Zoroastrians, Persian Jews, Bahá’í and the Ahwazi Arabs living in Iran.

      Selective blindsight is always politically motivated, isn’t it?

      Amir

    10. Sunny — on 3rd July, 2006 at 5:42 pm  

      *yawn*

    11. Sid — on 3rd July, 2006 at 5:45 pm  

      Yep, these right wing wiki-scholars from the University of Armchair are yawn-inspiring alright.

    12. Sunny — on 3rd July, 2006 at 5:49 pm  

      I couldn’t less this one pass:

      imultaneously ignoring President Ahmedinejad’s creepy denial of the Holocaust and his cosy conferences for renowned neo-Nazis

      You really are a stupid, blind, idiotic excuse for a piece of shit aren’t you Amir. In the nicest way possible. Fucking twat. Go have a wank or something, your frustration is stinking this place out.

      And on another note, I was planning to remove the link to Jamal and add a few other blogs, but it has nothing to do with your constant drivel. Just so we’re clear on that.

    13. Arif — on 3rd July, 2006 at 5:57 pm  

      I think Quentin Crisp said something along the lines of:

      The Americans are a generous people who are trapped in a hostile system. The British, on the other hand, are a a hostile people living under a benign system.

      (Nb. He preferred to live in America.)

    14. Roger — on 3rd July, 2006 at 6:13 pm  

      Most people ignore Ahmenijad’s remarks [and there are other translations that allegedly aren’t quite as vile] because they see them as perfectly normal and completely rhetorical behaviour for an Iranian politician, as meaningless as the old Labour Party mantras in praise of Clause Four.

      If people are justified in worrying that foreigners hate the England football team because they think it reflects their attitude to England and to English people, then it is reasonable to worry if “Most Britons see America as a cruel, vulgar, arrogant society, riven by class and racism, crime-ridden, obsessed with money and led by an incompetent hypocrite.”
      On the other hand, many Britons would probably say the same thing about Britain.

    15. Trofim — on 3rd July, 2006 at 6:28 pm  

      >> Not only do they do a good job of mangling the difference between the US administration and its people, …

      And you think that most Brits bother to distinguish the two?

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1328663,00.html

    16. Amir — on 3rd July, 2006 at 6:36 pm  

      Sunny, I quote

      “You really are a stupid, blind, idiotic excuse for a piece of shit aren’t you Amir. In the nicest way possible. Fucking twat. Go have a wank or something, your frustration is stinking this place out.”

      Notwithstanding your failure to engage in a civil discourse, I ask: Where on earth have you commented about Ahmedinejad’s pathological hatred of Jews and Israel [putting to one side, for a moment, the brutal and insidious and cowardly occupation of Palestinian land]? Where oh where…?

      Nobody wants a war. And I include myself in that equation.

      But, in saying this also, I’d never make ‘excuses’ for that slobbering dauphin Mahmoud Ahmadinejad – as you so consistently do…. you bleedin’ hypocrite.

      Incidentally, how do you equate ‘stupid’, ‘blind’ and ‘idiotic’ to my continued opposition (and the Telegraph’s) to the baleful plight of ethnic and religious minorities in Iran?

    17. Amir — on 3rd July, 2006 at 6:39 pm  

      Sid,

      “Yep, these right wing wiki-scholars from the University of Armchair are yawn-inspiring alright.”

      Yep, these left wing Counterpunch-scholars from Serious Golmal are yawn-inspiring alright.

      We can all play that game Sid.

    18. Ravi Naik — on 3rd July, 2006 at 6:41 pm  

      “And you think that most Brits bother to distinguish the two?”

      The article is bullshit. One thing about the British is that they don’t talk with strangers in public, and certainly don’t expose their prejudices. I really pity her for fearing for her safety in London.

    19. Amir — on 3rd July, 2006 at 6:47 pm  

      Sunny, oh yes…

      You really are a stupid, blind, idiotic excuse for a piece of shit aren’t you Amir

      You have every right to describe me as a “piece of shit”, as well as to smear excrement all over the walls of your nursery.

      Prick.

    20. Jai — on 3rd July, 2006 at 7:02 pm  

      Sunny,

      A brief comment by an objective third-party:

      If you are serious about maintaining your intellectual and (especially) moral credibility, along with the “mission” you admirably mentioned here on PP a little while ago, it may be worthwhile to refrain from engaging in profanity and resorting to personal insults against commenters. Amir may be disagreeing with you on certain points but he is not malicious or deliberately deceitful, and he does not deserve this kind of language.

      This is of course your blog and you are free to do whatever you want to here, but this is an objective opinion and, perhaps, one to seriously consider in the interests of continuing constructive, civilised, mature dialogue with other people.

    21. Leon — on 3rd July, 2006 at 7:04 pm  

      Well, as we say on Urban75, if you don’t like it here, the door is thataway————->

    22. Amir — on 3rd July, 2006 at 7:34 pm  

      Jai,
      Thank you very much. :-) You’re a lovely guy, cheers. x x x And if you don’t agree with me, or vice versa, don’t take it as a personal insult… but I’m sure you’re already aware of that Jai!

      As a writer, I’d describe myself as acerbic, cocky and slightly over-the-top… but hey, we all have our individual styles and ways of constructing prose. However, as an individual [with multiple identities might I add], I’d describe myself in opposite terms: Shy, polite, and painfully old-fashioned. I very rarely swear or raise my voice. And I don’t base my friendships on “ideological similarities” or tugging-the-party-line.

      The points I have raised on this thread are entirely legitimate; no one hitherto has tried to contradict or refute them. I am sure David T, Brownie and the Harry’s Place posse would agree with me on a few comments, not to mention a panoply of Iranian bloggers.

      My opinions on this matter are clear enough: Sunny, Sid, and other Stalin Tomb regulars are surprisingly [and revealingly] reticent when it comes to the nasty politics of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

      Nuff said.

    23. justforfun — on 3rd July, 2006 at 7:49 pm  

      Sunny - Jai’s comment seems to me to make sense.

      Justforfun

    24. Amir — on 3rd July, 2006 at 7:57 pm  

      Leon,

      Well, as we say on Urban75, if you don’t like it here, the door is thataway

      Let me be candid: I prefer left-wingers such as Chris Dillow [a.k.a. Stumbling and Mumbling], Norman Geras, Nick Cohen and Shuggy to the ones on PP. They’re a lot more analytical and well-read, contrarian, nuanced and open-minded than the militant flat-earthers [bar Rohin] who can’t see beyond their own idees fixes. Contributors at Pickled Politics are just too ideologically entrenched.

      However,… the picklers, by stark comparison, are unique in many ways. I disagree with Don (for instance) on various issues, but he is nonetheless very persuasive in his counter-arguments and amusing jibes. I could give lots of other examples.

      On Pickled Politics, the feedback is usually more enlightening than the main ‘article’.

      The opposite is true on Harry’s Place!!! – brilliant articles, shit feedback (Benjamin and Callum… anyone?)

      Amir

    25. jamal — on 3rd July, 2006 at 8:22 pm  

      lol@ that headline. Does the DT really think it can equate ‘America’ to ‘Mankind’?

      But apparantly, they dont like us rither because of our supposed “bad manners” (see link)

      http://travel.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,10295-2233162,00.html

    26. justforfun — on 3rd July, 2006 at 8:40 pm  

      Amir - I just read the two Telegraph articles in full - I plead guilty to not reading it before , but it was a load of tosh and I buy the damn paper :-) - however I really just get it for the fact it does have a bit of news about the rest of the world and not just what is happening inside the M25 which is pretty much only what you get in the others. I also get it just to be able to one day read its apology for having Barbara Amiel as a commentator, but we can all live in hope ;-)

      It just regurgetated a load of half facts and half truths and a considerable amount of wishfull thinking!
      I don’t not quite see where your point in #9 about Iran was coming from? I can’t remember Sunny ever castigating the Telegraph for being easy on the IRI - or was I away that week?

      Justforfon

    27. Katy Newton — on 3rd July, 2006 at 8:48 pm  

      When we vote for a political party we’re like the Sorcerer’s Apprentice: we set the brooms dancing but if they stop doing what we want them to do there’s bugger all we can do about it.

      I don’t agree with the headline “To hate America is to hate mankind”. I think that hating any group of people on a blanket basis is ridiculous whoever they are. I like America and I think that it has a lot going for it. I don’t judge the American people by their administration even if they did vote it in; I voted for Tony Blair in 1994 and have regretted it bitterly ever since. I would hate it if other countries judged our national character by this administration.

    28. Don — on 3rd July, 2006 at 9:02 pm  

      Has anyone a link to the actual poll? The Telgraph article smacks of over-simplification and selective bias, but I’d like to see the data.

    29. Sid — on 3rd July, 2006 at 9:17 pm  

      Amir

      I usually agree with most of what you have to say. Some of it I am diametrically opposed to. But I always enjoy reading your point of view. Its just that your style is adversorial and antagonistic. You do yourself a disservice because you don’t need to be.

      Get that soapbox out yer arse. Why do aggressive, la?

    30. Sid — on 3rd July, 2006 at 9:26 pm  

      Katy

      I agree. I made some unbelievably strong US mates when I worked there for a while. Something about that seige mentality that Americans approach every project in life with, whether work or play, inclucates a bonding which is hard to resist. Americans are different but they make the most excellent friends.

    31. Leon — on 3rd July, 2006 at 9:44 pm  

      @ Amir, ahh you’re fond of Harrys Place etc. All is explained!

    32. justforfun — on 3rd July, 2006 at 9:56 pm  

      Bugger - meant to put a NOT in
      I can’t remember Sunny ever castigating the Telegraph for *insert NOT* being easy on the IRI - or was I away that week?.

      Justforfun

    33. Ravi4 — on 3rd July, 2006 at 9:56 pm  

      The headline is absurd. And Bush is incompetent (eg Iraq, healthcare) and a hyprocrite (anti-abortion & pro-death penalty, against Islamic fundamentalism & for creationism, against oppression and for Guantanamo etc).

      But if the two quotes really do represent what the Brit public think – “America as a cruel, vulgar, arrogant society” and “America is essentially an imperial power seeking world domination” then it’s nothing to be proud of. Wasn’t it the Yanks who were meant to have a simple-minded stereotyped view of the world?

      Amir – A bit out of order implying Sunny has sympathies for Ahmedinajad. After all, isn’t Sunny the MCB’s & HuT’s very own “Brown Sahib” “Islamaphobe”?

      Sunny – I think Jai’s got a point there at #20.

    34. Trofim — on 3rd July, 2006 at 10:07 pm  

      >> The article is bullshit.

      What cogency, what clarity of thought, what strikingly transparent and reasoned argument based on logical principles you employ Ravi Naik. This kind of intellectual rigour seems to be very common on this Pickled Politics site.

      Since you have made an assertion, that this article is “bullshit”, then perhaps you would be willing to elucidate the following:
      (a) what constitutes “bullshit”, that is, what criteria must be met and in what degree, in order that any entity, physical or non-corporeal, attains the status of “bullshit” (b) to indicate, with reference to the aforesaid article, namely which features of it satisfy the criteria which you specify. I’m listening.

    35. Don — on 3rd July, 2006 at 11:08 pm  

      a) what constitutes “bullshit”, that is, what criteria must be met and in what degree, in order that any entity, physical or non-corporeal, attains the status of “bullshit”

      See above.

    36. Sunny — on 3rd July, 2006 at 11:21 pm  

      may be worthwhile to refrain from engaging in profanity and resorting to personal insults against commenters.

      Rubbish. The whole point of having a website is I can swear at idiots if I want to and not have to worry about getting deleted or banned. As Leon points out, if Amir doesn’t like the articles here, he can fuck off.

      And if he thinks I’m an apologist for the Iranian President, he fuck off again. I don’t have to link to any articles to justify myself. You find them and you make up your own mind. Fucking twat.

    37. Don — on 3rd July, 2006 at 11:56 pm  

      Sunny,

      The whole point of having a website is I can swear at idiots if I want to…

      Wrong.

      And you know you are.

    38. Sid — on 3rd July, 2006 at 11:58 pm  

      I tend to agree. People who don’t have a blog but maintain the right to advise others how to arrange theirs, who they should link to and what they should write about, can, in all fairness, stick a large rudely shaped vegetable up their rarseklart.

    39. Ravi Naik — on 4th July, 2006 at 12:47 am  

      “What cogency, what clarity of thought, what strikingly transparent and reasoned argument based on logical principles you employ Ravi Naik.”

      It’s called basic common-sense.

      The article starts by saying that she - as an american - fears for her safety in London where she is attacked and intimidated. Which is strange considering the hordes of american tourists that come to this country at this time and no news about any sort of attacks.

      But never mind that, as she found an explanation for this blatant disrespect: anti-semitism. Oh yes, there is no other reason to be nauseated by the current american administration. And God forbid that anyone should criticise the Israeli government’s actions toward Palestine and the American government for giving cover. Because it’s anti-semitism and Europe is full of it.

      So yes, the article is total rubbish.

    40. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 4th July, 2006 at 1:05 am  

      Actually Sunny I do think that you are a bit of an apologist for Iran, or at least wildly optimistic about his\its intentions at the expense of critizing America. From “Misreporting Iran”:

      TFI - the issue here is that people are happy to use the negative rhetoric to serve their purpose, but disregard other statements that do not fit into that narrative such as “we will not declare war on anyone”.

      I’d be interested in seeing some articles on here talk about the massive growing anti-semistism which pours out of very paper and it appears nearly every person.

      A good example was on PP with the title “Isreal wants War”, inspite their steps towards peaceful stettlement and the Palentines countinal rejection of peaceful stettlements.

      Its not very balanced, but then again I read other sources like JW to counter balance my daily dose of PP.

      Cheers,

      TFI

    41. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 4th July, 2006 at 1:07 am  

      So yes, the article is total rubbish.

      That is evident from the title :)

    42. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 4th July, 2006 at 1:09 am  

      To hate America is to hate mankind

      Is this title meant to be a play on the old Koranic line: “To kill an innocient is to kill all of mankind”?

      TFI

    43. TheFriendlyInfidel — on 4th July, 2006 at 1:21 am  

      “You really are a stupid, blind, idiotic excuse for a piece of shit aren’t you Amir. In the nicest way possible. Fucking twat. Go have a wank or something, your frustration is stinking this place out.”

      I wonder how our pet Islamists consider Sunny’s lack of civility? Should Sunny be arrrested for a thought crime of debating with insults? Or is abuse (and possibly violence) jolly good if Sunny is percieved as defending Islam from Amir?

      Anyone see that article: Undercover on planet Beeston?

      Plenty of nutters out there, a few are on this board. Much better to demonize America and Isreal and be sympathatic to Iran. It helps keep the nutters nutty.

      TFI

    44. Sunny — on 4th July, 2006 at 2:20 am  

      TFI you’re not a regular so I’ll make it clear again. As is the case with both America and Iran, I like large sections of their liberal population and dislike the adminstrations, the Iranian one more. And I dislike some of their crazy conservatives in both countries.

      The fact that Ann Coulter says that “we should bomb their countries and convert them all to Christianity” and sees her book hit number one is testament that not all Americans are nice and fluffy people either, and certainly in that regard no different to the anti-semites of Iran. And I’ve previously dissed the Iranian president with more more invective than Bush. So I have nothing to apologise for and neither am I an apologist. Like all those idiots who call me anti-Sikh or anti-Muslim on other boards, I don’t give a crap. But you do it on my site and you will get abuse. End of story.

    45. Leon — on 4th July, 2006 at 2:41 am  

      “Sunny,

      The whole point of having a website is I can swear at idiots if I want to…

      Wrong.

      And you know you are.

      Fuck off! You’re talking bollox and YOU know you are! Christ it must be the heat bringing out all the idiots or something…

    46. Abhi — on 4th July, 2006 at 2:54 am  

      The whole point of having a website is I can swear at idiots if I want to…

      If I may interject with an American perspective here. Across the pond at Sepia Mutiny we never swear at our readers. If they piss us off we just ban them. Anything (or person) that repeatedly slows down our service to our readers is worth eliminating for the greater good. Our readers know our policy and because of this we rarely have to ban anyone and they are still pretty free to say anything within reason.

      If you rule through fear and intimidation then freedom of speech actually becomes more fun.

      “let them hate, so long as they fear.”- Caligula, Roman Emperor

      I swear we Americans are actually quite nice. I was just kidding about the fear and intimidation thing. I hope this doesn’t make our poll numbers sink even lower in Britain. :)

    47. Tanvir — on 4th July, 2006 at 2:59 am  

      Was waiting for something striking on pp in the last few weeks to bother commenting on, ironically I’m posting on this thread, but that’s more down to too much time on my hands!

      Amir is obviously looking at his cards back to front or something…. schoolboy debate styles where you accuse someone of a charge when they just slightly (perhaps accidentally) stumble in that direction, with the hope of shock inciting a return in your direction is so transparent and lame.

      Anyway, about hating America. All this useless debate - much down to tangled up words and ‘what you really mean’ when we all know what people really mean is just waste of bandwidth. Everyone hates America really…and well okay since i got into this i’ll briefly explain myself, particularly for the benefit of those whose starred and striped hearts I have just given a VT/VF (and smashed the defibrillator to bits beforehand). Imagine a football stadium full of robots, and George Bush holding a disc with the software for them all. The program gives them a few basic rules, democracy, freedom (mostly plagiarised from Animal Farm)etc. But the program was written by some kid in Calcutta who was ogling over porn sites (mostly fit Bengali stars like Rani Mukerjee) and never double checked his codes. Conveniently for Bush, this meant conflicting errors possible, such as the crusades, neo-con ideology, ‘American ideology is always the most righteous- so as long as we act towards progressing this we can go rape and pillage all over the world and not allow any other ideology to ever stand and its okay’ generally lots of ‘Israel is right’ …. ‘There is no problem with Israel stealing shit loads of land and expelling its people’ subliminal messages… and a whole load of McDonalds ‘its okay to be a fat b*****rd advertisements’. So obviously it’s the software not the robot that’s the problem. See we do understand that, and feel sorry for the robot, but its too much of a mission to explain in words, and much easier to just say we hate the robots and hope people understand, otherwise tough shit.

      I could say i hate America, if i really wanted to. Doesn’t mean i cant love an American. (wtf!?!??!? …does that make sense?) Probably doesn’t, its 3am, but anyway, i reckon anyone with half a brain could unravel/interpret what i’m saying.

      All this shitty debate and broadsheet space… on do you hate america… or its policies… or you hate america but really mean its policies…. or just stupid dumb fat brainwashed americans. Who cares, we have a new enemy now.

      I’m not going to apologise for digressing. But you lot are chatting about a complete load of shit and not really establishing anything anyone didn’t know before (including Sunny being a mardy little boy when he gets cussed and told). So anyway this is the plan: An experiment to show that Americans can be loved.

      Well maybe a few of them - a family of weird looking bearded billionaires in particular. Now we are going to even adapt an American approach…. We will love you, but it is going to cost $$$. Paying the wages of one Portuguese c*nt until 2010 to be precise.

      You see Man U could still be thinking ‘Ronaldo is going to be part of the premiership campaign next season’ - yea right. Now the cheeky bastard wants to do a runner to Real Madrid, and Man U could make a hefty little earner from the sale. Or, alternatively -according to this PP crusade, Man U could not release him from his contract and keep him on the bench until 2010 accompanied by 4 years of getting the shit kicked out of you by Wayne Rooney.

      In return, we, the football fans, and the general public, will accept & love the Glaziers, and stop hating.

    48. Amir — on 4th July, 2006 at 3:25 am  

      Sidney, you ask a pertinent question: Its just that your style is adversorial and antagonistic. You do yourself a disservice because you don’t need to be… Why do aggressive, la

      I find that people are willing to listen to hard, uncompromising socially and morally conservative messages, if expressed honestly, without embarrassment and without bigotry. Yes, I am sometimes deliberately rude – about bad ideas and about influential people who can look after themselves – but that’s a ubiquitous thing. Picklers don’t want to be patronised or placated or manipulated but they can appreciate the honest truth at least as well as anyone else. [In future, I shall try harder to moderate my tone.]

      Now, to you Sunny: The fact that Ann Coulter says that “we should bomb their countries and convert them all to Christianity” and sees her book hit number one is testament that not all Americans are nice and fluffy people either.

      How many people on the ‘right’ of British politics do you actually think ‘agrees’ with Ann Coulter? She’s a vile and unprincipled opportunist. Her polemics against everything ‘liberal’ are tedious, boring and abusive (much like your own bile on this thread). Hard-headed conservatives gorge on her material in much the same way as hard-headed socialists gorge on the anti-American tripe of Noam Chomsky.

      More importantly, the Telegraph isn’t sounding a drum beat for an apocalyptic war against Iran; it is merely pointing to an obvious scintilla of fact: that Ahmedinejad is an irresponsible puppet for even deadlier puppet-master. You, on the other hand, turn a blind eye to everything that transpires in Tehran because it does not fit in with your anti-American grand narrative. As TFI points out, you said, on a previous contribution:

      If, heaven forbid, a war was declared on Iran, you can be sure that the Daily Torygraph would be its biggest cheerleader. In fact it would probably ask readers to donate money to the war effort.

      At the time, I responded as thus:

      If, heaven forbid, a thermonuclear bomb was created in Iran, you can be sure that the Guardianista would be its biggest cheerleader. In fact it would probably ask Israel to stop sulking.

      Read the entire thread.

    49. Amir — on 4th July, 2006 at 3:29 am  

      Now, a single response to a triple message (Sunny-Leon-Sid):

      The whole point of having a website is I can swear at idiots if I want to… As Leon points out, if Amir doesn’t like the articles here, he can fuck off… Fucking twat.

      Gentleman, there is also an axiom called the ‘rule of unintended consequences’. If you so-called ‘progressives’ [snigger, snigger] really want to turn this blog into a playpen for guttersnipe abuse, then people will treat it as so. Intelligent picklers will stop contributing, and, mutatis mutandis, intelligent people will stop tuning in. Treating one another in a derogatory fashion is a cultural choice and it will have unintended consequences. I can assure you.

      Amir. ;-)

    50. Bikhair aka Taqiyyah — on 4th July, 2006 at 4:25 am  

      Amir,

      “I find that people are willing to listen to hard, uncompromising socially and morally conservative messages, if expressed honestly, without embarrassment and without bigotry. Yes, I am sometimes deliberately rude …”

      You’ve completely bit my style. I too have noticed that I have to be obnoxious and rude for my arguments to hit home or hit at all. Now that the black female convert thing is out of the bag, I need a new approach assuming that all those facts havent completely made me illigetimate. You know how racist and condescending those Asians can be.

    51. Sid — on 4th July, 2006 at 8:06 am  

      You know how racist and condescending those Asians can be.

      sho nuff.

    52. Ravi Naik — on 4th July, 2006 at 8:07 am  

      “Hard-headed conservatives gorge on her material in much the same way as hard-headed socialists gorge on the anti-American tripe of Noam Chomsky.”

      Ann Coulter is a liar and she is not funny at that. She fabricates things and she tells half-truths to add the “entertainment” value. On the other hand, Noam Chomsky is a misguided intellectual, and while you and I may not agree with him in a lot of issues, it’s a matter of opinion.

      “If you so-called ‘progressives’ [snigger, snigger] really want to turn this blog into a playpen for guttersnipe abuse”

      In a good day, you are articulate and well-mannered.
      But you can also behave like an immature prick with no respect to whom you are talking, specially if you disagree with them. So you deserve no respect back.

      The axiom my friend is this. That there are three types of truths: mine, yours and the Truth. So don’t rub it in that you have two out of three.

    53. Sid — on 4th July, 2006 at 8:26 am  

      I love debating with someone who goes “[snigger, snigger]”. Don’t you?

    54. Desi Italiana — on 4th July, 2006 at 8:47 am  

      To Abhi, my fellow American bhai:

      “I swear we Americans are actually quite nice. I was just kidding about the fear and intimidation thing.”

      Don’t lie. The Man (Big Brother/Uncle Sam) up on Capitol Hill is constantly monitoring everything we say and do. He sees everything and hears everything. Even when he sleeps, he sleeps with one eye open….

      I am beginning to suspect….is SM just another running dog of imperialism? ;)

    55. Desi Italiana — on 4th July, 2006 at 9:00 am  

      sigh….America and the world….

      The first year that I was living in Europe, I would reflexively get defensive- despite the fact that I myself arrived in Europe already deeply critical of the US- anytime someone found out I was an America and then proceeded to tell me all the bad things about America. At first, I felt like I was being personally held responsible for the US government’s actions and everything that my government does.

      But then I learned to identify the fact that most people were criticizing US politics. Some saw US politics as an extension of- understandly- American citizens. After all, we do vote for our politicians. I had to point out, though, that there DOES exist a variety of opinions, and there is a segment of the population that is aware of the going-ons of the US government and is critical of it, more critical than any of the Europeans that I know. It’s just unfortunate that this segment is pretty small.

      And I found that people from other countries are way more informed about US domestic and foreign politics than the average American. One reason may be that it’s because US policy has global implications and in some cases, its grave consquences are felt by populations world wide.

      As a sidenote, I had more difficulty in Europe in discerning whether individuals hated Americans or American politics. I have to say, in Arab and/or Muslim countries, I never had that. Every person I talked to always pointedly spoke about US foreign policy. No one said the slightest accusatory thing about American citizens. But these are my experiences.

    56. Amir — on 4th July, 2006 at 9:44 am  

      Ravi Naik and Said,

      I have every right to use the jibe *snigger snigger* when I have to put up with gutternsnipe abuse like this:

      “You really are a stupid, blind, idiotic excuse for a piece of shit aren’t you Amir. In the nicest way possible. Fucking twat. Go have a wank or something, your frustration is stinking this place out.”

      Considering the amount of abuse I could give in return, I think I’ve been quite restrained… so don’t you ‘prick’ me mister.

      *I don’t like this blog anymore.*

      Good riddance.

    57. Sid — on 4th July, 2006 at 10:02 am  

      Amira, you old queen, if its any consolation, you’re always free to come and abuse me on my blog.

    58. Ravi Naik — on 4th July, 2006 at 10:22 am  

      “I had to point out, though, that there DOES exist a variety of opinions, and there is a segment of the population that is aware of the going-ons of the US government and is critical of it, more critical than any of the Europeans that I know. It’s just unfortunate that this segment is pretty small.”

      It is actually pretty big. A solid 60% disapproves Bush as President.

      I lived in the US for a few months and I had a wonderful experience. I found people to be very hard-working, honest, self-confident (which sometimes is confused for arrogance) and generally interested in world affairs.

      I think it is good for the world to have a superpower like the US balanced by an EU and India. The problem of the US is plain incompetence and lack of vision which have proved to be disastrous. I just hope democrats can put their act together (nominate Al Gore) to restore the credibility of that country.

    59. Ravi Naik — on 4th July, 2006 at 10:50 am  

      “Considering the amount of abuse I could give in return, I think I’ve been quite restrained… so don’t you ‘prick’ me mister.”

      I am sure you could unleash the mother of all abuses, Amir. But I feel you deserved every word you got.

      Now, I hope you do reconsider and keep on writing this blog. I do appreciate your points on multiculturism and your other center-to-right views.

    60. soru — on 4th July, 2006 at 11:18 am  

      My theory is countries that are pissed on by US policy straightforwardly object to that.

      Countries, notably europe, and especially the UK, that aren’t so pissed on, take up that free floating animus, are unable to reasonably apply it to some simple matter of policy, and so redirect it to economics, culture or even individuals.

    61. Jai — on 4th July, 2006 at 12:11 pm  

      Re: Verbal abuse towards Amir (and other commenters).

      Abhi from Sepia Mutiny makes some superb points in post #46, and in fact this is exactly what has been going through my own mind for quite a while now, since I participate on both SM and PP and have noticed the disparity between the two blogs in terms of how they are moderated, along with how commenters in general are often treated.

      There are ways of making one’s point clear — firmly and, if necessary, directly — without engaging in the type of gutter language and vicious aggression which results in the individual concerned inadvertantly coming across as exactly the kind of “uneducated, backward Punjabi villager” stereotype that he has often referred to and obviously has a great deal of disdain for.

      I also find it interesting that the justification given for having one’s own blog is that it confers the advantage of one not having to behave in a civilised manner towards commenters. If that is the kind of bullying, thuglike attitude at play here, then I have to reconsider whether my continued participation on PP would be an appropriate course of action for me. There are more extreme lurkers around who do perhaps warrant a harsher response — the occasional visitors PP gets from the BNP come to mind, for example — but I do not think Amir falls into this category, especially as his own tone is generally restrained and he does not use foul language himself (and again, I do not think he is malicious or has some kind of nasty, deceitful agenda).

      Amir,

      If you really are making a permanent exit from PP then you are welcome to join myself and Abhi on Sepia Mutiny if you find the environment there more constructive.

    62. sonia — on 4th July, 2006 at 12:50 pm  

      “When we vote for a political party we’re like the Sorcerer’s Apprentice: we set the brooms dancing but if they stop doing what we want them to do there’s bugger all we can do about it.”

      Bingo Katy - that’s precisely the problem we have.

      Jai what you say is fair and everyone needs to take that on board. I think its’ interesting having vigorous debate so i’d definitely encourage him to stay. ( and whomever) i also think that there’s too much of assuming we all know what someone else’s ‘position’ on things is from a one-line or two-line statement, then jumping down that person’s throat, and dismissing everything else based on some assumptions. That doesn’t make the debate interesting, it just gets rather pointless and antagonistic.

    63. Rakhee — on 4th July, 2006 at 12:52 pm  

      Kids. Toys. Prams. Do you lot have any idea how ridiculous you sound? Sniggers, foul language, insults, ‘you wanna be in my gang’ mentality. It’s getting silly.

      I don’t think there’s any need for anyone to go anywhere - just all cool off for a while would you?

      Sunny, sounds like people are all a little stressed.

      Why don’t we start a mid-week stress relief thread. Open for 12 hours on Wed for people to talk about anything they want (like the weekend one). It might help.

    64. Shankar — on 4th July, 2006 at 12:55 pm  

      Is there a competition between sepia mutiny and PP that we should know? If Jai, Amir want to leave then please do. You do not have to announce that you are not writing anymore. I don’t like foul language but Amir was begging for it. He launches personal attacks, and so you either ban him or you tell it like it is.

      I like SM and PP, but PP has the edge in the more serious department and also in the quality of comments. This is my personal opinion. The most useful feature of SM is the news tab.

    65. Sid — on 4th July, 2006 at 12:58 pm  

      Why don’t we start a mid-week stress relief thread. Open for 12 hours on Wed for people to talk about anything they want (like the weekend one). It might help.

      Thats a good idea. Alternatively we could do the CiF BigBlogger thing and vote for the PP commenter we would like to write a PP blog post.

      My vote goes to Amir.

    66. justforfun — on 4th July, 2006 at 1:09 pm  

      I think its’ interesting having vigorous debate so i’d definitely encourage him to stay. ( and whomever) i also think that there’s too much of assuming we all know what someone else’s ‘position’ on things is from a one-line or two-line statement, then jumping down that person’s throat, and dismissing everything else based on some assumptions. That doesn’t make the debate interesting, it just gets rather pointless and antagonistic.

      Sonia - Thank you for saying in one paragraph what would have taken me ten.

      One thing that has not been mentioned is the question of anonymity. For Sunny and others who have opened up their identities, they are personalities in the ether, as well as just real people walking down the street. It is a pressure that I can imagine is very hard to bear especially when the rest of us are anonymous. I think we should bear this in mind when we inadvertantly personalizing things. We can switch names at will, but Sunny et al cannot. Just a thought. …. fill in the remaining 10 paragraphs on your own. ;-)

      Amir - I hope you stay. Pickled Politics is far more interesting with a few bits of anglo-saxon usage it is a language designed to hurt so should be used with care ;-)

      Justforfun

    67. Shankar — on 4th July, 2006 at 1:18 pm  

      For Sunny and others who have opened up their identities, they are personalities in the ether, as well as just real people walking down the street.

      You make an excellent point. In fact, Amir did use that to his advantage….

      “Certainly no one seems to raise an eyebrow when Sunny Hundal complains about…
      Certainly no one seems to raise an eyebrow when Sunny Hundal rails against the Telegraph…”

    68. sonia — on 4th July, 2006 at 1:55 pm  

      Rakhee - that’s a great idea - the mid-week thread thingie..especially good for sounding off for those of us at work! :-)

      thanks justforfun - and you’ve got a very good point about the identity thing.

    69. sonia — on 4th July, 2006 at 1:56 pm  

      yes and i think we all have to be fair - there’s lots of us who’ve resorted to unpleasant tactics on plenty of occasions - including amir -and im sure myself as well! - but again, i think we all need to keep our cool. i suppose it is 32 degrees today! :-) hot hot hot..

    70. Sunny — on 4th July, 2006 at 2:12 pm  

      Abhi, I could of course ban someone quietly so no one knows why they’ve suddenly stopped posting. That would apply more to trolls I think. If someone regular accuses me of being an apologist for terrorists, holocaust deniers or just being downright anti-semitic, I reserve the right to show my disgust by abusing them and then later banning them if the situation turns into a full abuse fest. I prefer that to quietly banning them.

      The corollary now is of course that I don’t need to take anything that Amir says seriously because he’s shown himself to be a shrill and shrieking madman.

      I’ve never shown myself as someone who avoids insults. On comment is free Faisal Bodi comes on my articles to taunt me, and in return I taunt him. That’s the way it goes. If you abuse someone, expect it back. I’m not fussed either way.

    71. Chris Stiles — on 4th July, 2006 at 2:50 pm  


      How many people on the ‘right’ of British politics do you actually think ‘agrees’ with Ann Coulter? She’s a vile and unprincipled opportunist. Her polemics against everything ‘liberal’ are tedious, boring and abusive

      A vile unprincipled opportunist who has no problems getting large amounts of airtime, publicity, etc. A large portion of the ‘American right’ that the ‘right’ of British politics supports sees no problem with this whatsoever.

    72. Professor Sikander — on 4th July, 2006 at 2:51 pm  

      I’ve never shown myself as someone who avoids insults. On comment is free Faisal Bodi comes on my articles to taunt me, and in return I taunt him. That’s the way it goes. If you abuse someone, expect it back. I’m not fussed either way.

      That is Sunny’s Jatt blood speaking ;-)

    73. Sunny — on 4th July, 2006 at 3:22 pm  

      Heh. Here I am trying to get away from caste-ism and people keep referring to my jatt blood. I think it’s more Punjabiness isn’t it?

      I don’t see why people suddenly think the temperature has been shot sky high. I got angry at accusations and I let Amir know what I thought. End of story for me, I’m chilled.

      Actually I’m not that chilled, it’s frikking boiling here and I’m sweating like no one’s business. :(

      And lastly, let’s stop making out as if there’s competition between PP and SM. Both are excellent blogs for and with different audiences. And besides, people do check more than one website every day. In fact they were our (Rohin and I) inspiration at launch.

    74. Refresh — on 4th July, 2006 at 3:28 pm  

      Sunny do whatever it takes to get Amir back. We hadn’t finished on the Israel wants war thread; and now some of the stuff he’s brought up here.

      Ravi4, Amir, Desi Italiana - sorry my internet connection is intermittent until, hopefully tomorrow. Can we resume what I thought was a very good exchange?

    75. Refresh — on 4th July, 2006 at 3:29 pm  

      sorry and Ravi Naik, Chairwoman etc.

    76. Leon — on 4th July, 2006 at 3:30 pm  

      “Sunny, sounds like people are all a little stressed.”

      I blame the heat…

    77. Refresh — on 4th July, 2006 at 3:46 pm  

      Didn’t want to get involved - but having researched the whole wide web - its obvious they are both to blame Amir is retentive (and frustrated, intellectually) whilst for Sunny its his upbringing.

      And his upbringing came in very handy - had it spot on, and dealt with the issue head on. Instead of using a well presented essay, grammar perfect to say the same thing.

      Bottom line - Amir sort it out. Your virtual mentors (Ann Coulter, Melanie Philips etc.) don’t leave you with enough to stand alone, and probably are but a tool in their objectives.

      But Stay!

      As for Sepia Mutiny - I am not sure you will be appreciated there. Here we’ve gotten to know you and know your weaknesses. And strength.

    78. raz — on 4th July, 2006 at 3:51 pm  

      Pickled Politics kicks Syphiltic Mutations butt. It’s a fact :)

    79. j0nz — on 4th July, 2006 at 4:31 pm  

      Amir, Sunny sometimes goes fucking mental if you piss him off. I’ve done it many times. I don’t think Sunny realises what it’s like to be on the end of his vitriol.. (which to be honest is getting rarer) Not just Sunny of course, Sid and many others!

      But after a few punch ups you end up respecting each other an incy bit more. My two pence.

      I’m slightly addicted to this blog as I’ve said before… I think I might be… asian

    80. Amir — on 4th July, 2006 at 4:35 pm  

      Sunny,

      If someone regular accuses me of being an apologist for terrorists, holocaust deniers or just being downright anti-semitic… I reserve the right to show my disgust by abusing them and then later banning them if the situation turns into a full abuse fest

      I have never once accused you of being an apologist for terrorism, holocaust denial or indeed anti-Semitism. So stop trying to “rationalise” the abuse you meted out. I challenge you (or anyone else on this blog) to find a quote that supports any one of your accusations. I insinuated on post #9 that you frequently turn a blind eye to the nasty politics of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the genuine threat he poses to stability in the Middle East. Intellectuals who keep silent about what they know, who ignore the crimes that matter by moral standards, are even more morally culpable when their society is free and open. This is analogous to George Orwell’s theory of “worthy” and “unworthy” victims:

      …the atrocities of official enemies arouse great anguish and indignation, vast coverage and often shameless lying to portray them as even worse than they are; the treatment is opposite in all respects when responsibility lies closer to home
      [Notes on Nationalism]

      By ‘nationalism’, he meant not just nationalism in the narrow political sense, but all ideologies that maintain themselves by denial of other realities. Just as bloggers from Harry’s Place turn a “blind eye” to the brutal occupation of Israeli soldiers on Palestinian land and the cynical unilateralism of Ehud Olmert, many left-wing anti-Zionists (or anti-imperialists) turn a “blind eye” to the apocalyptic ravings of an Iranian fascist and Holocaust denier – not to mention those poor, innocent civilians who die in the deadly maw of his regime.

      Turning a “blind eye” is not the same thing as endorsing or espousing those views yourself.

      As I said beforehand:

      Selective blindsight is always politically motivated, isn’t it

      Amir

    81. mirax — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:14 pm  

      I would like to fervently second everything that Jai has said and then some.

      Amir’s contributions to this blog have raised the intellectual tone tremendously (except when he is writing his ‘orrible poetry)- I wouldn’t snigger at him being a ‘wiki’ armchair intellectual as I have learnt a lot from his posts and he is one of the best commenters on this site.

      He also gets more abuse than usual because of his political convictions - I have seen this happening before - and it is not a good reflection on PP. I guess Amir’s honesty and direct challenges to Sunny (imo he was not making a personal attack - he was challenging Sunny on what he saw as discrepancies)do make quite a few of you uneasy. Tough.

      Sunny, would you ever address a poster on CiF in such terms? No matter how needled you felt? I somehow don’t think so. Yet this site is as public as CiF; the fact you own it actually increases the burden of behaviour expected, I would think. It is much more a reflection of who you are and what you stand for,no?

      Someone reading this thread may get the impression that you are somewhat threatened by Amir’s constant challenges and would rather see him off than answer him. That’s not really true, right?

    82. mirax — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:23 pm  

      I must add that it is good for Sunny/or me or anyone else to be robustly challenged on the ideas they put forth on a public forum- and it is rather immature to personalise this as an ‘attack’.

    83. Sunny — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:25 pm  

      If I needed to see him off I’d have quietly banned him long ago, don’t you think? You may learn much from him, I don’t. But then I’ve never stopped people who disagree with me come on here and tell me so.

      he was challenging Sunny on what he saw as discrepancies

      Just because he’s banging your drum doesn’t make it any more right. I’d link to posts that directly contradict him but I’ve wasted enough time on this thread already. You can like or leave my style, that is your choice. I remain myself.

    84. fotzepolitic — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:39 pm  

      “…a cruel, vulgar, arrogant society, riven by class and racism, crime-ridden, obsessed with money and led by an incompetent hypocrite.”

      I’m sorry, and the UK differs substantially from this how? The American stereotypes of Brits as well-educated and civilized were quickly shattered after my move to London. You’re battling obesity, violence in schools, failing health care and social services systems, illegal immigration, a widening gap between rich and poor, personal debt and rising house prices…a lot of the stuff I read in the paper every day seems like “same shit, different accent.” I don’t think such snobbery is justified (yes dudes, MOST rational human beings dislike Bush — U.S. lefties feel a bit helpless battling the corporate machine that is the gov’t right now), although I’ve learned that it’s a national pastime here to America-bash. I’m sure Sunny posted this on Independence Day just to make a point. ;) heehee.

    85. Arif — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:43 pm  

      To cuss Sunny or Amir is to cuss mankind.

      They seem to have wound each other up - no-one likes to be called a hypocrite, must be galling for them when if they are actually both sincere.

      A poll of picklers found 12% trusted Sunny to moderate blogs fairly. More than two thirds had the opinion that Sunny is an imperial power intent on world domination and 81% that he championed free speech as a cover for shouting people down.

      A poll of picklers found 12% trusted Amir to stick to the topic of discussion. More than two thirds had the opinion that Amir is a fundamentalist intellectual intent on global conflict and 81% that he championed moral consistency as a cover for ad hominem attacks.

      But really, they are people like anyone else. And the US is a country like anywhere else with its own secrets and propaganda and contradictions and cruelties and ideals and so on. When we focus on what we want to change, we just have to remember to do it in a loving or respectful way. Polls don’t give us the option to add such nuances and so they are tools in the hands of the Telegraph to propogate an agenda.

      A poll of media commentators found 12% trusted the Telegraph to report polls in a balanced way….

    86. Sunny — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:44 pm  

      I posted it yesterday fotzepolitic ;)

    87. Don — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:45 pm  

      Leon,

      As we seem to be clearing the air, are you seriously contending that the whole point of this website is to swear at idiots? Or is there a rather more serious purpose?

      A purpose a lot of people would love to denigrate and portray as lacking in credibility. Handing them ammunition just because Amir has worked out which buttons to push is counter-productive.

      I have no idea of your purpose or level of credibility, if any, so feel free to tell me to fuck off if you want. I deal with behaviourally disturbed adolescents for a living so I’m used to it.

    88. Sid — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:48 pm  

      Personally I think the UK could improve its quality of life many-fold if they imported American 24 hour breakfast bars. We have much to learn from our imperial overlords on matters of short order food bars.

    89. Don — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:48 pm  

      Arif,

      You’re priceless.

    90. Ravi Naik — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:48 pm  

      “left-wing anti-Zionists (or anti-imperialists) turn a “blind eye” to the apocalyptic ravings of an Iranian fascist and Holocaust denier – not to mention those poor, innocent civilians who die in the deadly maw of his regime.”

      Let me ask you this. Are (were) you in the camp that uses the argument that those who are against the Iraq War, are turning the “blind eye” to Saddam, not to mention those poor, innocent civilians who died in the deadly maw of his regime?

      I would like to disprove your idea that “selective blindsight is always politically motivated”. It can also be a selection of what one considers to be important and what is not when looking at the big picture. Something that one would answer when asking: Was the Iraq War worth it? Who has the power to maintain and enforce peace in the Middle East?

    91. Leon — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:51 pm  

      “As we seem to be clearing the air, are you seriously contending that the whole point of this website is to swear at idiots? Or is there a rather more serious purpose?”

      I never said that but if someone has nothing better to do than come on here and talk shit, attack the owner and basically act like a twat then they should consider if it’s healthy for them to be here. Also, it’s Sunnys right to do whatever the hell he likes with this site, if people don’t like they are free to go start their own blogs/sites etc.

      No one is holding a gun to anyones head and demanding they stay go or otherwise.

    92. Sid — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:52 pm  

      Arif

      I see you’re the perfect candidate to blog for PP on the recent Pew International Poll results.

    93. Leon — on 4th July, 2006 at 5:52 pm  

      But anyway…like I said earlier, I blame the heat. It tends to make me more bullish in expressing my opinions and less likely to kind and considerate towards idiots.

    94. Refresh — on 4th July, 2006 at 6:20 pm  

      Let me patronise everybody for a while, draw the sting out of this, and ramble a bit:

      Most participants on here are a bunch of fence-sitters who enjoy exercising their keyboard skills.

      Clearly personalities come through as we spend more and more time within the rarefied atmosphere which is Pickled Politics.

      Mirax as for Amir teaching us anything - I am astonished. His harrying of Sunny is not acceptable.

      Must admit I had considered doing it myself for my pet subjects - but thought it would not be right, proper or fair on the editor or fellow contributors.

      I am tempted to think that Amir doesn’t have an agenda, because his net contributions are all over the place. And therefore an easy target.

      Except when he is trying to woo the girlies (I won’t mention the time he tried it on with me**).

      ** Sunny - Did you delete that post? I still break into a cold sweat when I find myself thinking about it. The throwing-up is now rare.

    95. Desi Italiana — on 4th July, 2006 at 7:02 pm  

      If I can add my two paisa-

      Judging from my limited time here, there is a specific commentator who enjoys putting words into the mouth of the person with whom he is disagreeing with, and making wild inferences by patchworking their comments together. How could somebody NOT get upset? I’m all down for free speech and “intellectual challenge”, but I am NOT down for somebody who uses this as a guise to make off the wall, defamatory comments about someone who is presumably saying something he disagrees with. Then, to calm the waters he proclaims to be an “arrogant writer” “cocky” at times, and that he doesn’t want PP to turn into a poo flinging festival. Honestly.

      And this particular commentator reminds me of the little boys back in grade school who would repeatedly pull your hair as they sat behind you, and then one day when you finally turn around and tell them to eff off, and they get all pissed and defensive.

      People are not pissed at him because he is “showing us the glaring truth” that makes us “uncomfortable” and pointing out inconsistencies; I suspect some are upset because while he accuses everyone whom he does not agree with of being ignorant, “left wingers”, anti-semites, fascists, and ideologically entrenched, he fails to see that his comments come off much the same way.

      And now, back to America and the Empire…..

    96. Lover, not figher — on 4th July, 2006 at 7:06 pm  

      A poll of media commentators found 12% trusted the Telegraph to report polls in a balanced way.

      Also a recent poll showed that 8 in 10 people had never been surveyed.

      Sunny, its OK, I didn’t mean any offence :) thanks for the clarification on your stance. I’ve been to states a few times and they aren’t all fuffy people for sure. This is evidence in how many guns they trade. I’ve not heard of this Ann Coulter, sounds horrific.

      TFI

    97. Desi Italiana — on 4th July, 2006 at 7:06 pm  

      “while he accuses everyone whom he does not agree with of being ignorant, “left wingers”, anti-semites, fascists, and ideologically entrenched, he fails to see that his comments come off much the same way.”

      I mean that his comments come off as not “anti semitic, fascist” but “ignorant, “right winger” and “ideologically entrenched”.

    98. Ravi Naik — on 4th July, 2006 at 7:06 pm  

      “And now, back to America and the Empire…..”

      Happy 4th of July? :)

    99. Desi Italiana — on 4th July, 2006 at 7:16 pm  

      “Happy 4th of July?”

      No! You know why? Because I have to pump out a 50+ page thesis on Desi politics in America by Friday, and so my butt is stuck to the chair, furiously typing away.

      No fireworks for me.

    100. Refresh — on 4th July, 2006 at 7:19 pm  

      Sunny - why don’t we all write it for Desi Italiana - it’d be world first.

    101. Sunny — on 4th July, 2006 at 7:38 pm  

      Desi politics in America? And only 50+ pages Desi Italiana? There’s so much scope…

      Have you ever read Amitava Kumar’s interview with the guy who launched the fascist site Hinduunity.org? An American, unsurprisingly. If you can’t find it I can upload the article for you, I have it saved. It’s called Lunch with the Enemy.

    102. Desi Italiana — on 4th July, 2006 at 7:43 pm  

      Sunny:

      “Desi politics in America? And only 50+ pages Desi Italiana? There’s so much scope… ”

      Yes. Only 50 pages plus (nothing more than 60). Isn’t that ridiculous? It is definately more difficult to try and squeeze in all that information in a coherent and logical way in 50 pages rather than, say, 100+ pages.

      Thanks for the article. I’m a big fan of Amitava Kumar, and I am sure I must have read the interview in the past (lodged in the dark and cobwebbed recesses of my mind).

    103. Sunny — on 4th July, 2006 at 7:52 pm  

      Well, here it is again if you or anyone else want to read it.

    104. Desi Italiana — on 5th July, 2006 at 10:21 am  

      Sunny, thanks for the article :)

    105. justforfun — on 5th July, 2006 at 10:46 am  

      Arif - post 85 - very very good.

      Justforfun

    106. Old Pickler — on 5th July, 2006 at 2:20 pm  

      Of course if it hadn’t been for America helping us out in WW2, there wouldn’t be too many Asians in Britain, the Nazis not being too keen on “inferior races”.

    107. Sunny — on 5th July, 2006 at 2:32 pm  

      If Asians hadn’t helped out the British in WW2 you’d be over-run by the Nazis too.

    108. Old Pickler — on 5th July, 2006 at 2:41 pm  

      Yes, I know that. But that doesn’t make what I said untrue.

      It was nice to have them around during the Cold War too, or we’d be overrun by the Commies.

    109. Indigo — on 10th July, 2006 at 5:18 pm  

      I came here because Katy recommended it. Then I was about to bookmark it - as I am very interested in interfaith dialogue and understanding, as well as mad as hell about the invasion of Iraq - and then I read some of Sunny’s pottymouth comments.

      I won’t be back. Byee.

    110. Sunny — on 10th July, 2006 at 5:38 pm  

      then I read some of Sunny’s pottymouth comments.

      Do explain Indigo.

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