The BBC continues pandering to the BNP
A journalist mate called me yesterday, angry at an interview she had just heard on BBC Radio 1 with some BNP members. It was so incredibly lame that her head nearly popped. Apparently the BNP are just described as “controversial”. Hmmm, yes I guess racism and Holocaust-denial are “controversial” … especially if you’re the bloody state broadcaster so worried about offering balance that you can’t call a spade a spade.
Over at The F Word, Laura Woodhouse points out:
One of the interviewees is Mark Collett, who was exposed in this Channel 4 documentary, in which he proclaimed that 1930s Germany was a better place to live than Britain today. “Hitler will live on forever and maybe I will too”, said Collett. He said that he considered AIDS a “friendly disease because blacks, drug users and gays have it.” He also made this sexist little speech which I blogged last year.
Amazingly the BBC interviewer or the show neglected to mention this bit of context, allowing the fascists to pretend they’re just cuddly, misunderstood people on a programme aimed at young children. Stroppybird is angry about it too.
At the New Statesman, Mehdi Hasan is so furious he transcribed parts of the interview to illustrate how easy it was on them.
Why is the idea of races mixing such a bad thing?
Joey: If everybody integrated it would take away everybody’s identity.
Mark: I would be upset if there were no more giant pandas, I’d be upset if there were no more lions, if there were no more tigers, so equally I’d be upset if white people weren’t here any more.But we’re the same species which makes it a bit different, doesn’t it?
Mark: You could say that but if all of a sudden there weren’t any sparrows and there were only crows, I’d still be sad there weren’t any sparrows.
You have got to laugh when BNP members are using pandas as examples to illustrate why racial-mixing is so bad. But you have to cry when you think this is BBC Radio 1 Newsbeat and the presenter is too goddamn incompetent and ignorant to challenge it properly.
He adds:
Is anyone else as shocked as I am by the soft, naive, piss-poor questioning? Why the pleading tone from reporter Debbie Randle? Where in the interview are these two BNP “kids” properly challenged – on the criminal convictions and dubious backgrounds of leading BNP figures; the party’s nakedly racist, Islamophobic and anti-Semitic discourse; the BNP’s policies on (voluntary) repatriation and mixed-marriage bans, etc? Why is the piece headline “Young BNP members explain their beliefs”, as if they are innocent members of, say, Amnesty International or on an Alpha course, rather than of a party whose members are banned from becoming police officers or prison officers?
And this is why I don’t buy the idea that when BNP members come on the media they’ll hang themselves – these people are getting cleverer and our nation’s broadcaster’s interviewers are progressively getting dumber.
Oh that also includes the EHRC – which is not only handing the BNP a propaganda victory by forcing them to get rid of their racist policies, but also royally screwing up that process.
A left-wing BBC? They may as well start actively recruiting BNP members, it would make little difference to editorial policy.
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So deep. Is this Mark fellow a Buddhist? A wise martial arts master perhaps, at one with the animals, living high in a solitary tower with his cuckoos and a pirate DVD copy of Kung Fu Panda? Yes, yes, letting him and more like him come on the media does and will make them look ‘cleverer’ (sic) and quite completely sane. The sparrows. We’d all be sad if there weren’t any sparrows.
A left-wing BBC? They may as well start actively recruiting BNP members, it would make little difference to editorial policy.
Calm down, calm down.
This is a bit like Biased-BBC : generalising from one example.
Sounds like the BBC actually did quite a good job from that transcript. Isn’t the best idea just to let them ramble on and make fools of themselves? (Bit like Mehdi Hasan and his unbelieving cattle…ooops!)
Though they should obviously bring up the criminal records, of course that sounds like a crazy omission.
The sparrows. We must save the sparrows.
It’s brilliant.
The most obvious point to make about the BBC, and broadcasting in general*, is just how dumbed-down the whole business is these days. If anything happens in Thailand, we are told clearly that Thailand is a “Southeast Asian nation” and we are told repeatedly where Iceland is located. People who need to be told such things ought not to watch news broadcasts at all.
The BNP does NOT have a ban on mixed marriages, by the way. Go to the website and check for yourself and stop making things up. Actually, for cross-cultural comparison, check out the Matrimonials page of almost any Indian magazine; caste and religious affiliation and ‘wheat complexion’ are all specified.
* The same can be said of the media in general. Those who have access to a good university library archive might try looking at the newspapers published today and the very same newspapers forty or fifty years ago.
Oh Sunny, you are funny.
I seem to recall you having a sticker on your blogs not so long ago that said proudly:
‘I TRUST THE BBC’
lol.
The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples does appear to support some of the things those kids were saying. Here’s some snippets (my emphasis in CAPITALS):-
Article 5
INDIGENOUS PEOPLES HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAINTAIN AND STRENGTHEN THEIR DISTINCT POLITICAL, LEGAL, ECONOMIC, SOCIAL AND CULTURAL INSTITUTIONS, while retaining their right to participate fully, if they so choose, in the political, economic, social and cultural life of the State.
Article 7
2. INDIGENOUS PEOPLES HAVE THE COLLECTIVE RIGHT TO LIVE in freedom, peace and security AS DISTINCT PEOPLES and shall not be subjected to any act of genocide or any other act of violence, including forcibly removing children of the group to another group.
Article 8
1. Indigenous peoples and individuals have the RIGHT NOT TO BE SUBJECTED TO FORCED ASSIMILATION OR DESTRUCTION OF THEIR CULTURE.
2. States shall provide effective mechanisms for prevention of, and redress for:
(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of DEPRIVING THEM OF THEIR INTEGRITY AS DISTINCT PEOPLES, OR OF THEIR CULTURAL VALUES OR ETHNIC IDENTITIES;
(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;
(c) Any form of forced population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;
(d) Any form of forced assimilation or integration;
(e) Any form of propaganda designed to promote or incite racial or ethnic discrimination directed against them.
Article 9
INDIGENOUS PEOPLES AND INDIVIDUALS HAVE THE RIGHT TO BELONG TO AN INDIGENOUS COMMUNITY OR NATION, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TRADITIONS AND CUSTOMS OF THE COMMUNITY OR NATION CONCERNED. NO DISCRIMINATION OF ANY KIND MAY ARISE FROM THE EXERCISE OF SUCH A RIGHT.
Here’s the whole Declaration:-
http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/en/drip.html
It’s interesting you mention Alpha Course – there they teach you that your gay friends will burn in hellfire. Is that really any worse?
I suppose it’s the flipside of relativism – when terrorists are “militants”, racists become simply “controversial”.
God (or Gaia) help us.
Reza- interesting.
No, Reza… it certainly does not. The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples refers to the rights of ethnic groups when they are subjugated (militarily or otherwise) by another ethnic group. You cannot apply it against societies that are multi-ethnic and where all citizens enjoy (in theory) equal rights under the law.
To the BNP, you – as an Iranian – are a threat to the genetic pool of the indigenous because you or your children may procreate with the local population. So do not think for a moment that your hard right views will get you anywhere with them.
What a polite way to say that Mark Collett is just full of crap. Extinction of species ends the genetic line forever, whereas extinction of race makes absolutely no sense, considering humans keep evolving naturally. Race differences are a product of natural mutations, environment and isolation… you may control the isolation part, but people tend to revolt when state dictates with whom you can procreate.
Who cares whether Mark Collet is angry that his countrymen procreate with people he does not like?
What reporters should be asking is BNP policies:
1) Yeah, you do not like miscegenation. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to implement South-African Apartheid to keep races apart in schools, hospital and urban areas?
2) Yeah, you are not “racist” because you dislike Eastern Europeans as well, and all you care is all things indigenous. Will the BNP release genetic tests of all its officials to see how indigenous your genes are?
3) Does the BNP consider zionism a threat? Who are the zionists and what do they want?
Large sections of the Asian population oppose race mixing too, and they are much more efficient than the BNP at stamping it out.
It’s strange to think of Asian people doing the BNP’s dirty work for them, but that’s what some of them are doing.
MixTogether,
“It’s strange to think of Asian people doing the BNP’s dirty work for them, but that’s what some of them are doing.”
Indeed- useful idiots for the BNP.
No surprise to see you’re trying to equate Asian parents with the BNP again MT. Large sections? Got any evidence for that? No you don’t.
Remember – giving blowjobs to blow-up dolls is a bad idea.
???
This is like a zen jigsaw puzzle. We have sparrows, we have blow-up dolls with penises… I’m so confused
An Asian family who stop their child marrying a white person, are doing what the BNP want them to do.
That makes them useful idiots for the BNP.
I’m sick of how the bnp is being presented as a ‘democratic’ legitimate party…they are a bunch of racist scum….I’m tired of hearing how ‘their’ country is being taken over by immigrants blah blah blah…and how they play down their links to fascist racist scum across the world.
Today on the Wright Stuff they were discussing if teachers who are bnp members should be sacked…HELLO…why would I want my kid being taught by someone who thinks they don’t belong in this country and would happily deport them even though they are BRITISH…being a racist and in a position of influence is wrong…hence the police and prison service banning it…
Bloody Anne diamond was saying that she thought it was ok as along as the teacher didn’t try to indoctrinate her children..well bully for her…she’s white so her kids won’t be affected like a brown kid would.
Why aren’t these people being done under the race relations act? isn’t it a public duty to promote race equality? how can a racist councillor fulfill this??? and why are these fuckwits being given an easy ride?
Sofia, on the BNP teachers point, I’m afraid there are a fair few Asian doctors who are pretty damn racist but to my knowledge do not fail their black or white patients. I think it’s possible to do your job well even if you harbour hatred in your spare time
Kismet Hardy
Agreed.
I’m not alone in loathing SWP types, communists and Islamists. Thoroughly wicked people.
But as long as they ensure that their vile opinions are kept out of the classroom, then there’s nothing we can do about it. Unless we create the criminal offence of ‘thought crime’.
To come to think of it, those would be the very groups that would support legislating for ‘thought crime’.
SWP types aren’t thoroughly wicked. They may be naive, but I can’t fault them for refusing to roll over and lick the establishment’s balls. And I feel compelled to point out that you can’t really call anyone’s opinions vile if you oppose thought crime. A good teacher is a good teacher, people who hate are allowed to hate. As long as no one is harmed along the way, I say knock yourself out
Kismet
Fair point.
“Wicked” and “vile” are subjective descriptions.
In my opinion, BNP members, SWP types, communists and Islamists all have “wicked” and “vile” opinions. And I agree that in a free country they must be entitled to have them. As long as no one is harmed.
Here’s the same United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, with a few words changed. Now it supports non-integration by immigrant minorities. Reza’s capitals are left as they were. What makes one version morally better than the other? Nothing at all. That’s what’s called “morally arbitrary”.
IMMIGRANTS HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAINTAIN AND STRENGTHEN THEIR DISTINCT POLITICAL, LEGAL, ECONOMIC, SOCIAL AND CULTURAL INSTITUTIONS, while retaining their right to participate fully, if they so choose, in the political, economic, social and cultural life of the State.
IMMIGRANT MINORITIES HAVE THE COLLECTIVE RIGHT TO LIVE in freedom, peace and security AS DISTINCT MINORITIES and shall not be subjected to any act of genocide or any other act of violence, including forcibly removing children of the group to another group.
Immigrant groups and individuals have the RIGHT NOT TO BE SUBJECTED TO FORCED ASSIMILATION OR DESTRUCTION OF THEIR CULTURE.
States shall provide effective mechanisms for prevention of, and redress for:
(a) Any action which has the aim or effect of DEPRIVING THEM OF THEIR INTEGRITY AS DISTINCT GROUPS, OR OF THEIR CULTURAL VALUES OR ETHNIC IDENTITIES;
(b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;
(c) Any form of forced population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;
(d) Any form of forced assimilation or integration;
(e) Any form of propaganda designed to promote or incite racial or ethnic discrimination directed against them.
Indigenous peoples and nations have no more rights than non-indigenous peoples, and they also have no right to exist.
All of these claims are no more than that: claims, claims, claims. That does not alter the political reality that billions of people believe in such nationalist claims, and that they are often ready to kill in support of the claim. You generally won’t see that reality reported in the media.
“You have got to laugh when BNP members are using pandas as examples to illustrate why racial-mixing is so bad.”
You’d have thought they’d have picked a different animal, rather than one that’s famous for being both black and white at the same time.
And I like how, when he’s challenged about humans all being the same species, he gets onto sparrows and crows, which are no more closely related than pandas, lions and tigers. I can see why you might think ‘bird’ is the species, but I’d expect a party obsessed with race and bloodlines to know a little bit more about genetics and classification.
Kismet,
I think it’s possible to do your job well even if you harbour hatred in your spare time.
Yes, if you’re a plumber. I’m not sure that most people can compartmentalise hatred into a hobby to be pursued only after work.
Joining the BNP does imply a stronger commitment to hate than just muttering about how you are thinking about voting for them. That level of hatred for a group makes it, in my opinion, vanishingly unlikely that you would be able to treat them fairly. As a teacher that person would be in a position to influence a lot of lives and poison a lot of futures.
Besides, to get a job as a teacher you would have to agree to whatever diversity/equality policies were in place. Could a BNP member do that without lying?
I do think it’s possible, Don. I hate shampoo, and anything to do with bathing really, yet I write excitedly about the joys of bathing products for a living
Don
“Joining the BNP does imply a stronger commitment to hate than just muttering about how you are thinking about voting for them. ”
What basis do you use for that view. Have you ever met a BNP members?
I know a BNP voter, and he is a thoroughly decent guy.
Kismet Hardy
“Sofia, on the BNP teachers point, I’m afraid there are a fair few Asian doctors who are pretty damn racist but to my knowledge do not fail their black or white patients. I think it’s possible to do your job well even if you harbour hatred in your spare time”
Really ? I have never met an Asian doctor who wants to expell all whites and blacks from Britain as the BNP does to non-whites.
And with regards Asian families opposing marrying a different race yeah its disgraceful but to compare it to the BNP is stupid.
With most Asian families its more an issue of religion not race- they wouldnt approve their child marrying an Asian of a different religion and if the person getting married agrees to become Hindu/Muslim/Sikh theyd be OK.
The BNP on the otehr hand would never accept a Black Christian even if he was an Archbishop
And this Mix Together guy is an idiot. He acts as if hes anti-racist because he supports mixed marriages yet will gladly demonise and blame the whole Asian community.
and if you find an Asian doctor who refuses to treat White/Black patients you should report em. But I serioulsy doubt you will
A BNP teacher teaching non-whites however… hows he going to be a good teacher or wish well to the “enemy” ?
Asian
“Ive never met an Asian doctor who wants to expel all whites and blacks from Britain as the BNP does to non whites.”
Oh please. The BNP are racists. Criticise them for that. But there is NO BNP policy that seeks to expel all “non whites”.
# 16 Sofia is totally in error.
Again, it does a disservice to one’s brain to repeat falsehoods.
Go to the BNP website; they are NOT in favour of mass expulsions. Not even mass expulsions of Somalis.
Check and compare the policies of the BNP with the policies of National Front, which IS in favour of mass expulsions.
‘Asian’
Where has MixTogether said anything about the whole Asian community?
17 Kismet- do doctors see their patients day in and day out for at least six years?? I think the analogy is of a bnp member consultant who has a registrar who is Asian…you sure that the racism won’t affect judgement there? and it’s not about being racist..you can be as racist as you want, but then you go and join a party that is basically passing itself off as democratic…didn’t the nazis do that?
Binky, the BNP website won’t say anything out and out racist because, other than being stupid (and they’re clever enough to know they can’t afford to be as as stupid as readers that swallow the bullshit), it’s illegal to do so. You should know that
Binky..before your lot decided to get some pr, you did spout that rubbish…plz don’t tell me you’ve changed your mind.
lol @ not even of somalis…you are pathetic…
and racist doctors also have to do the hippocratic oath..so can’t not treat a patient because of their colour…
Sofia, I have kids and I certainly don’t want to think they’re being taught by a racist twat (I went to public school and got taught by plenty). I just don’t think it’s right to cast out people who can do a job without prejudice even if they secretly harbour prejudices. I suppose the keyword is ’secretly’. People can think what the hell they like. I for one don’t want to change anyone’s mind if they want to believe in something, as long as no one’s getting victimised, including the teacher whose good at teaching (exceptions such as a murderer driving a black cab apply)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2001/feb/22/equality.raceequality
Kismet..this is about being part of a ‘political’ party that espouses fascist teachings…so it’s not just about their beliefs…there are plenty of homophobic teachers out there that don’t discriminate against gay students, but i’m sure there would be issues if they then joined a party that went out of its way to blame all of society’s ills on them…and then went on demos and had a nice little homophobic badge of honour they donned on the weekend…
and Kismet..can I ask..did you report any of your racist teachers?
Binky “Go to the BNP website; they are NOT in favour of mass expulsions. ” this ones for you..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/apr/23/bnp-nick-griffin-john-sentamu
“The manual describes the BNP’s “ultimate aim” as the “lawful, humane and voluntary repatriation of the resident foreigners of the UK” …so let’s get this one straight..how do you define foreigners since nick fuckwit griffin says anyone who is brown/black etc etc is not British…so if this applies to me…how are you going to ask me to voluntarily leave??? where do I go? I was born and brought up in England so don’t really think it’s anyone’s right or business to tell me to leave…
Sofia, yes you may ask and no I did not (things were rather different back then – my headmaster insisted my name was Raj). Kids go through all kinds of shit and the ones I went through made me better equipped to deal with things. It’s character building and I can’t help but believe my kids will learn to deal with whatever shit they have to deal with these days, like the humiliation of carrying last season’s ipod
” It is not the strongest of the species that survives nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one most adaptable to change.”
Charles Darwin
Which is why the pubic louse has outlasted the mammoth and the sabre-toothed tiger.
The ATAKA party leader in Bulgaria said, in what was a possibly-joking aside, that he was in favour of boiling the Roma down to make glue.
Compared to ATAKA, the BNP is a bunch of Primrose League fairies!
Ha ha!
Well said, Ravi.
Also, horses are not so stupid that they think other horses are actually rats and cockroaches.
Unlike some of our fellow humans, it appears.
Right then,
1. large sections does not equal all, for those who can’t do the maths.
2. If large sections of the Asian community do not oppose race mixing, why have Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis got the lowest intermarriage %ages of all minority groups, by a long way?
3. Anyone who thinks it is just about religion is welcome to come to the MT forum and try that line- they will quickly be proved wrong.
4. Anyone who splits up someone else’s loving interracial relationship is doing the BNP’s bidding, and helping to advance their agenda.
To give weight to MT’s argument, I must say even though I promote a ‘we are all asian under the same canopy of brown angel dust’ or whatever bollocks pays my bills, it depresses me that the progressive generation of free-thinking all-drinking all-shagging I promote still go to speed dating events that are almost always separated into sikh, muslim, hindu events. But is there one for the screwed-up junk casualties? No. No, there isn’t. And that’s why I’m single. Another Dan Brown mystery solved.
Feel free to hire me MT as your personal PA.
I once went out with an (anglo) indian girl who said her parents were cool about her going out with whites, “just not blacks and muslims”.
Bleh. There are no non-racist sections of the population. i know plenty of gays who are anti-muslim, and speaking as a kuffar, there’s no doubt plenty of muslims who hate me.
However, why is it ok to sack BNP teachers and not Islamist teachers, or teachers wearing full face masks? Sorry – the BNP may be vile, but why should we tolerate one bunch of fascists and hate the other?
I agree with the boyo.
The other night, in my continuing mission to destroy my parents with pain to seek revenge for those years they gave me a privileged upbringing, the selfish, evil ancestors I must call my own, I hit jackpot by responding to my mother’s call to take off my earring for my daughter will be of a marriagable age soon with the war cry: if she brings home a black man or a jewish man, I wouldn’t give a fuck, MUM! Ha!
I’m 37-years-old and I live with my mum but my liberal principles remain untainted. I will accept any award humbly
MixTogether
Provide some actual and credible evidence or kindly fuck off.
Mix Together,
Bear with me for a bit. I happen to think that sexual attraction will finally outweigh culture. But it won’t be tomorrow, or if it is it will be incremental, not radical.
So, saying things, as you do, about how it is right now with the Asian community, is unlikely to be a good indicator of the future.
Why do I say that?
I’d like to ask you a question. Given that Asian women are incredibly successful at degree level, why do you think Asian men retreat to the sub Continent for a spouse?
And, OK, I can accept an arguement about that, obedience, submission, a lack of language skills. What I cannot see is where the bluestockings, the British educated, genuinely brainy Asian women are supposed to go. For they are being in a genuine sense rejected, for favour of more, err, submissive women.
This ought to drive them nuts.
I think it does.
“I’d like to ask you a question. Given that Asian women are incredibly successful at degree level, why do you think Asian men retreat to the sub Continent for a spouse?” haha spot on Douglas…
Douglas…I have a lot of muslim female friends who are highly successful and unmarried because they can’t find a Muslim boy (of any race) that
a) isn’t living with his mother
b) not trying to turn her into the muslim version fo the stepford wife
c) not trying to impose his family on her
d) not trying to get her to quit work
e) not looking for some sort of virginal 18 – 22 year old supermodel
Dammit Sofia. I live with my mother. I tick b) c) and d) but there’s nothing wrong with a supermodel. 3 out of 5 isn’t bad. Where is she? I’m waiting.
Sofia, do they not want to try a non-Muslim?
In my quest for lurve, apart from a host of multi-coloured secularists I tried Hindu, Confusion, Buddhist, Russian and Georgian orthodox (the Georgian was VERY), a follower of Osho, and have ended up with an Italian Catholic. I’d have happily tried Muslim if one would have had me
For what it’s worth, I’m a Unitarian (it figures
). But that’s my business. I can understand why people from Muslim cultures first choice might be people from their own, but if that don’t work… what’s the problem?
Although the word “Asian” has been used, I’m going to speak only for the Indian contingent in this instance.
- The majority of 2nd-generation British Indians in 2009 do not “retreat to the subcontinent for a spouse”. It does still happen, enough to be noticeable, but it’s increasingly less common these days.
- Of those that do end up going to India to find a wife, more often than not it’s because of parental pressure involving what kind of a daughter-in-law they want, rather than what kind of wife the man himself wants. So the reason is “strict parents pressuring their sons, overriding their preferences and restricting their options” rather than “orthodox/conservative/backward sons”, basically.
It’s a bigger deal in the cases of joint/extended families, obviously (ie. where the son is expected to live under the same roof as his parents even after marriage) — this doesn’t apply to all British Indians these days, especially amongst the more affluent types — although it can still be a factor to a lesser degree due to the relatively close-knit nature of Indian families. The latter isn’t something unique to Indians, incidentally — it’s prevalent amongst Mediterranean societies and in Latin America too.
Not that any of this has anything to do with this thread’s main topic, by the way.
Sorry off topic but…
Jai
“orthodox/conservative/backward sons”,
It could be argued that they are orthodox/conservative/backward to be so influenced/pressurised in doing something so long term that is counter to their own thoughts on their life.
And joint/extended families are part of that same orthodoxy/conservatism/backwardness. But it can’t be that orthodox/conservative if the very parents who dictate their sons future left their own extended families to live in a different country but do not want their son & (future & existing) daughter in law to live separately in the same country, or sometimes even in the same town because of what others who are similarly orthodox/conservative/backward will say etc..
If it is important to live in an extended family, ask the man to live with his in laws because the girl is pressurised by her parents to follow their dictates …. then see how important it is & see the criticism from the man and the parents as to why the woman’s family have so much influence on their daughter in a marriage.
Its easy to ask another to live in such a situation but different if you have to yourself.
How many Asian men want to live with their mother in law in such a scenario?
No. One would not argue that women being “encouraged” or explicitly coerced into arranged marriages by their parents against their own thoughts on their life are necessarily orthodox/conservative/backward themselves.
The same logic applies to men.
Correct. Unless they’re all voluntarily living in the same house because pooling their resources results in a bigger property and a higher standard of living, and it doesn’t involve any elements of ongoing patriarchal/matriarchal top-down control over the adult sons and their wives. The latter is of course the main problem, especially when intergenerational cultural differences are involved, as naturally occurs here in the West in particular.
Also correct. However, human beings are not immune from exhibiting double-standards.
Correct.
Perhaps more accurately, how many Asian parents would want their son to live with his in-laws in the latter’s house after marriage.
While it is certainly tempting to make a causal link between them, I do not think that “marrying within your community” implies you are against miscegenation.
I believe religion is a strong factor.
It is quite common within the Goan Catholic community to mix with other Catholic communities, like the Irish, Italians, Portuguese, Brazilians, and Hispanics. And we do not call these marriages “mixed”.
Hindus and Sikhs are definitely more limited if they want to cross racial boundaries but stick with their own religion. And in this country, most Muslims are Asians. So it does not surprise me that Asians do not cross racial boundaries as much as whites or blacks, but I do not think this means that Asians are necessarily against miscegenation. It means that people want to marry within their religion.
Certainly not everyone who marries someone of their own faith/race is against mixing. It might just happen that way. But how many second generation Hindus and Sikhs, for instance, have been told no BMWs (black, Muslim or white)? Yes, as Ravi said, they might just want to marry within their own faith, but why is that? Because they have a view that for girls (especially) marrying someone not of that faith will mean that the girl themselves will convert out of the faith. While this is undoubtably true in the odd case, most partners, especially non-religious ones, just don’t care.
I agree. However, my point is to give an alternate explanation to the low number of mixed marriages in Asian communities – other than MT’s “large sections of Asians are racists”.
If you had a similar pool of black and white Hindus and Sikhs in Britain as you have Christians and Atheists, and Asians were still not intermixing as much, then I would believe that race is a predominant factor. Alternatively, we can look at Christian Asian communities and/or secular Asian families, and see the intermix rate there. I would think it wouldn’t be any different than white and black communities in the same circumstances.
“ One would not argue that women being “encouraged” or explicitly coerced into arranged marriages by their parents against their own thoughts on their life are necessarily orthodox/ conservative/ backward themselves.”
So if they are unorthodox, unconservative/progressive why do they do something they do not agree with? It comes across that they (man or woman) live their life under a veneer of being independent, unorthodox, progressive that falls when it comes to marriage/ extended family. Whether, man or woman, it seems to be that upon marriage you revert to being orthodox/conservative/backward. Many Aunties allude to this – they may not use those words but say things like let them have their time she/he will change/know to do the right thing.
“ Correct. Unless they’re all voluntarily living in the same house because pooling their resources results in a bigger property and a higher standard of living, and it doesn’t involve any elements of ongoing patriarchal/matriarchal top-down control over the adult sons and their wives. The latter is of course the main problem, especially when intergenerational cultural differences are involved, as naturally occurs here in the West in particular.”
Thats a lot of unorthodox/progressive caveats. Theoretically yes but in real life no. The rationale as to living under the same roof for economy in a lot of cases breeds dependency upon one’s ageing parents. Why get married to continue such a dependency – to me thats backward & unprogressive. If economy is an issue it is one sided – cost savings can be made in either sets of parents houses…
The majority (of women) I know would rather their independence & privacy from their in laws (even well meaning ones) midst financial hardship. Its hard to judge from a man’s perspective because of the inherent orthodoxy/conservatism/backwardness means men are not in the same position. And if you get married surely a persons priority and focus should change and your partners wishes become paramount, otherwise why get married? Thats certainly the emotional stance of the wives I meet who have to live through it – large house or no.
“Perhaps more accurately, how many Asian parents would want their son to live with his in-laws in the latter’s house after marriage.”
Hey – dodging the question!
Ravi:
I’m not sure about that. An increasing number of Muslims in this country are black (whether converts or from Africa), yet, purely from anecdotal evidence, many South Asian Muslim families would be unhappy with their daughter marrying a black Muslim. Again, this is only anecdotal, but I wonder if other people’s experiences are similar?
@ would say yes that is an attitude with some
I’m an Asian man living with my mum. I can’t see how it would be worse if I lived with my wife’s mum. There’s be food, there’d be washing, just like at home, only there’d be a wife too.
^ Why not try and see? For it to be a truer role reversal it would be the man that has to do the seva so it could be you doing the washing, making the food. And going by the in laws rules of the household
“many South Asian Muslim families would be unhappy with their daughter marrying a black Muslim.”
Yup, my mother (who’s beginning to get obsessed with my daughter reaching marriageable age – she’s 12 for chrissakes) would have a heart attack if:
She married a black man 99% guarantee
She married a jewish man 90% guarantee
She married a Hindu/Sikh man 80% guarantee
She married a Pakistani Muslim man 65% guarantee
She married a Bangladeshi Muslim that didn’t come from the same district 40% guarantee
She married a white man 3% guarantee
She married a woman of any race 100% guarantee
(statistic compiled by CEHR)
Emotional blackmail, obligations, emotional ties etc.
Correct.
Correct.
Your mother would rather have your daughter marry a white – most likely not Muslim – than someone from your own background but not the same district? Interesting…
Why are people like Ravi Naik advancing religious discrimination as if it is somehow better than racial discrimination?
If someone chooses their own partner (as every sane person should) that should be end of story.
The particular flavour of the parents’ bigotry is not the issue.
Anyway, how easy it is for racial bigots to hide their prejudices behind religion…
#53 – Kismet- i forgot to put – are unmarried because the boy (if they finally find a match on shaadi.com is
f) 5 foot nothing, when he actually said he was 6 foot…with a really unattractive receding hair line (at least bald could be considered sexy..comb over isn’t)…and a laddooo belly…
4/6??
I know Kismet Hardy is just taking the piss out of this thread, probably with some justification, but it occurs to me that there are very few kids that would give a monkeys what their parents thought? In fact, rather the opposite perhaps. I’d assume Kismet Hardy doesn’t exactly care who his daughter marries as long as she is happy?
Clearly this is just me assuming that my ideas are universal….
boyo…the majority of my muslim female friends would want to marry a muslim…the ‘funny’ thing is..they have plenty of non muslim men who would love to go out/marry them…I suppose their faith is something they would rather share than compromise on…
I don’t always think it’s about doing what your parents want you to do..it’s about respecting their opinion and then making your own mind up..
Douglas, you are correct. I’m raising my daughter and son the Asian way: THINK LIKE I DO! Luckily, I think everyone should do whatever the fuck they please as long as it isn’t harming anyone and (where possible) doesn’t make them look a right twat in doing so
Kismet Hardy @ 73,
Agreed. What the fuck, we agree?
Stop whining. In case you didn’t think this through, choosing a partner is a highly discriminatory process: there is the physical side, cultural, educational, personality, and a set of other traits that you feel are compatible and attractive, and others that do not. A lot of people take faith (or lack of faith) seriously. And yes, some people choose their partners based on their race.
On all accounts, people should have the right to choose their partners as they see fit. What is wrong is when parents force their children to marry people they do not want.
My point is that there are reasons other than racism that can explain why Asians don’t inter-mix as much.
But you do not seem to accept the extent to which racism does play a part.
MixTogether seems to have solid anecdotal evidence to this effect, but you are choosing to ignore it. I can accept that religion plays a part, can you also accept that racism plays a part?
Morrigan, I explicitly mentioned in #75 that racism can play a part. I am not convinced that is the predominant reason as MixedTogether was saying, nor will I start condemning people for choosing their partners as they see fit. What I will condemn is when families and community pressure you to marry with someone you do not want.
Nobody seems to be criticising people’s personal choices, you are reading too much into it.
Seems like we all agree that it is wrong for families to interfere, whatever their bigoted reasons for doing so, right?
Sofia – “I suppose their faith is something they would rather share than compromise on…”
Compromise on sharing perhaps, but I don’t see why going with a non -Muslim would mean compromising their faith. Is it not halal to kiss a Christian or something?
What are they afraid of?
Morrigan,
I think people have accepted that racism plays a part, I don’t see any denial of this. Ravi’s point seems to me to be recognising that in choosing a partner people will take a lot of factors into account. Love is wonderful, but raising a family is a practical matter.
I fully support those who take on the challenge and make their own way as a couple. But that doesn’t mean I get to condemn those who are more cautious about how harsh life can be for some who challenge the status quo. Eventually, I hope, we will reach a point where that is not an issue, but right now and for many it is.
When Ravi says, A lot of people take faith (or lack of faith) seriously. And yes, some people choose their partners based on their race. I see him as recognising a (regrettable) fact rather than advocating a position.
solid anecdotal evidence
That’s a new one for me. It’s anecdotal or it’s solid evidence. It ain’t both.
@ 75 Taking this discriminatory process & turning it into a list:
physical – can see that
cultural – depends what this is (if pertaining to the liberal use of mustard oil on the hair then would steer well clear)
education – not been attracted based on this. Bit odd to be attracted to someone if they had a phd
personality – can see that
faith – depends – if they are happy clappy or rabid about it then a turn off
race – can understand this if race is based on your physical type
Thanks for clarifying my position, Don.
Edward,
* In 2008 there were fewer than a dozen priests ordained in Ireland while well over a hundred retired or died in harness. the expression is ‘decline in vocations.’
I’ll light a candle to that.
As long as anyone is choosing their own partner, i don’t care how or why they choose.
MixTogether supports those whose personal choices are being attacked due to race, faith or caste (and we do see all 3).
It’s that simple.
Morrigan:
As Don says, Ravi wasn’t saying that people shouldn’t marry those of other religion, just that such a consideration will be a facotr for some.