EDL rulers revealed


by Rumbold
28th September, 2009 at 8:58 pm    

The BNP has discovered who is behind the English Defence League (EDL). I think we all knew who it was already though:

“BNP leader Nick Griffin has claimed that the English Defence League is being manipulated and directed by Zionists to create a race war on the streets of Britain. Trying to distance the BNP from any potential problem, Griffin and his deputy Simon Darby have set out in an audio message their position on the hooligan-based group…

“I’m going to spell it out,” his leader adds pompously. He goes on to pin the blame on those he considers responsible. “Spelling it out in simple terms, you look at the owners of the Daily Express, the Daily Star and their interests. This is a neo-con operation. This is a Zionist false flag operation, designed to create a real clash of civilisations right here on our streets between Islam and the rest of us.””

The Jews seem to control everything. Where do they find the time?

(Via Harry’s Place)


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Filed in: EDL,The BNP






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  1. Matt Borum

    Pickled Politics » ELD rulers revealed- “BNP leader Nick Griffin has claimed that the English Defence League… http://bit.ly/2DmEuR


  2. Steve Greer

    Racists attempt to cover tracks with anti-semitism: http://bit.ly/Qb5FX




  1. qidniz — on 28th September, 2009 at 9:16 pm  

    Where did Hope Not Hate get all those quotes?

  2. Tom — on 28th September, 2009 at 9:23 pm  

    “The Jews seem to control everything. Where do they find the time?”

    We control the watchmaking industry, too.

  3. chairwoman — on 28th September, 2009 at 9:41 pm  

    I’ve hardly had time to complete a sudoku all week.

  4. Lee Barnes — on 28th September, 2009 at 9:50 pm  

    Actually Nick did not say that the Jews were responsible for the EDL, he said Zionists. Listen for yourself, the interview is clear on that point

    Now it is interesting that PP thinks ‘Zionists = Jews’ when in fact, as Nick stated, the majority of Zionists in the world are non-Jewish Christian Fundamentalists.

    So either Rumbold is either ;

    1) Deliberately lying

    2) Or thinks Zionists are all Jews

    So Rumbold are you lying or are all Zionists Jews ?

  5. Yahya Birt — on 28th September, 2009 at 10:04 pm  

    I think we all know that in Mr Griffin’s lexicon “Zionist” is normally used as a codeword for “Jew”.

    Of course this is all nonsense-on-stilts: why would the Jewish community in a billion, trillion years ever want to encourage something like the English Defence League?

  6. Not Lee Barnes — on 28th September, 2009 at 10:12 pm  

    I think we all know that in Mr Griffin’s lexicon “Zionist” is normally used as a codeword for “Jew”.

    ######

    Would that be by using your Nick Griffin Decoder Ring or would that be via ‘Channeling’ the spirit or Nick Griffin or simply the voices in your head ?

    So ‘jewish community’ = Zionists does it, as this will be a real shock to those Orthodox Rabbis who demonstrate against Israel and for Gaza in London every year.

  7. persephone — on 28th September, 2009 at 10:21 pm  

    ” Of course this is all nonsense-on-stilts: why would the Jewish community in a billion, trillion years ever want to encourage something like the English Defence League?”

    Because this is an example of The Big Lie:

    The Big Lie is a propaganda technique and was coined by Adolf Hitler in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf for a lie so “colossal” that no one would believe that someone “could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously”.

    Big Lie technique: source Chapter 10, Mein Kampf:
    … in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.

  8. Gordon Is A Moron — on 28th September, 2009 at 10:23 pm  

    A Neo-Con operation?

    Getting young Asian lads to beat up old white men? Where does he get this stuff?

    I think we should start a ‘Griffin Bingo’ card for the Question Time appearance. Put words like ‘Muslim’, ‘Jew’, ‘Zionist’, ‘Troof’, ‘Paedophiles’ etc on it and see who can get House by the end :)

  9. Ravi Naik — on 28th September, 2009 at 10:46 pm  

    Actually Nick did not say that the Jews were responsible for the EDL, he said Zionists.

    What does Zionist mean these days, Barnes?

    And is Nick Griffin criticising a group of Englishmen for rallying against Islamists? I am shocked.

  10. Ravi Naik — on 28th September, 2009 at 10:47 pm  

    Actually Nick did not say that the Jews were responsible for the EDL, he said Zionists.

    Is Nick Griffin criticising a group of Englishmen for rallying against Islamists? I am shocked.

  11. Chris E — on 28th September, 2009 at 11:14 pm  

    Have you already covered the fact that the MPACUK seem to have made the same connection:

    http://www.mpacuk.org/story/060909/exposed-edl-and-its-zionist-connection.html

    At least that’s one thing that brand of Islamists can unite on with the BNP. It was all the fault of the .. Joos!

  12. douglas clark — on 28th September, 2009 at 11:14 pm  

    Of course this is all nonsense. However, re Persphones’ point about the big lie, you should listen to how Mr Griffin puts it across. It starts about the 6’50″ mark.

    http://simondarby.blogspot.com/2009/09/putting-down-marker.html

    If you hadn’t been keeping up with it and he says something like this on Question Time, he’ll sound almost moderate.

    Of course, if you have been keeping up with it you can pick holes in it, but how many of the actual or virtual audience will that be?

    Hopefully, the likes of Jack Straw will have listened to this too, for you only get a few seconds to refute.

    His appearance on Question Time is scheduled for
    October 22nd, which is after two demos, one in Manchester (EDL) on the 10th of October and one in Swansea (WDL) on the 17th of October. Coincidence?

    Just another possibility of a conspiracy with pre-injected deniability.

  13. dave bones — on 29th September, 2009 at 12:48 am  

    from the link-

    The EDL, backed by the Daily Star, is gaining momentum

    is it? What do you think Lee? Are the EDL backed by Zionists? There are only twelve of them no? Am I missing out on momentum?

  14. Rumbold — on 29th September, 2009 at 9:48 am  

    Lee Barnes:

    As others have said, in the minds of the BNP, Zionists=Jews. As an example, I managed to find a piece with a headline about a zionist, but which goes straight into talking about Jews:

    “Zionist Capitalist Buys the Conservative Party

    Looks like the old whore Cameron will be dropping his britches, poking his arse into the air, smearing vaseline on his ring bit and then smiling whilst he takes it up the Gary Glitter for Israel.

    It is of course a myth that Jewish billionaires only ever seem to donate to Jewish charities, which is of course ‘racist’ if they did as if whites only donated to white charities that would be racist as well, and also it is not a fact that they only ever seem to donate lots of money to the Labour Party and Tories as an attempt to buy political power as this old canard is clearly ‘anti-semitism’.”

    http://leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/2009/09/zionist-capitalist-buys-conservative.html

    From what I can tell the blog is written by a legal officer in the BNP, a Mr. L J. Barnes LLB (Hons.).

  15. platinum786 — on 29th September, 2009 at 10:12 am  

    Hahaha, excellent find Rumbold. Interesting to see the interchanging use of the term Zionist and Jew.

  16. Ravi Naik — on 29th September, 2009 at 10:20 am  

    Here is another article from this L J Barnes “LLB (Hons.)”: Melanie Phillips and the Zionist Network.

    So, it is safe to say that the BNP like all neo-nazis and Islamists, believe that there is a network of Zion elders which are filthy rich, and are plotting to destroy the aryan race… I mean the indigenous peoples of Britain, and their culture, by promoting miscegenation, and corrupting their children and their women.

    What is going on? Did Nick Griffin just criticise a group of indigenous young men for rallying against Islamists, and blaming now on the evil Jewish network?

  17. persephone — on 29th September, 2009 at 10:59 am  

    Lee John Barnes blog is aimed at what he calls on the homepage ‘intellectual’ revolutionaries.

    He does not intimate when the intellectualism will start though.

  18. Kismet Hardy — on 29th September, 2009 at 12:04 pm  

    Didn’t the publisher of Daily Express and Daily Star also use to publish Asian Babes? It was a zionist conspiracy I tell you, designed to make every Asian look minging and, on a personal note, like my aunt

  19. Paul — on 29th September, 2009 at 12:16 pm  

    The Hope not Hate site comments:

    “The Jewish community in Britain is alarmed and appalled at the rise of the EDL and the potential conflict it might cause. Jews are appalled because they have a proud history of opposing racism and fascism.”

    That probably does not reflect the current attitudes, and it certainly would not be true for some other EU countries. Jewish support is a certainly a factor in the rise of Geert Wilders, he even went to the US to hold fund-raising speeches in synagogues. The difference with the BNP is, of course, that Wilders has a 100% pro-Israel record, and the BNP evidently can not keep up that pretence, from one statement to the next.

    This incident does not invalidate concern about the shift to the anti-immigrant right among Jews in Europe, or the corresponding shift to pro-Israel policies among right-wing xenophobic parties. At most it shows that there is an electoral opportunity for a British Wilders, unburdened by a neonazi past or antisemitic outbursts, and resolutely focussed on targeting Islam.

  20. Ravi Naik — on 29th September, 2009 at 1:01 pm  

    It seems that Barnes has written extensively about Zionists.
    5 min reading through some of his posts, and I am lost in his world of paranoia against a group of people (Zion Elders?) who are very busy plotting against the indigenous (aryans?) by forcing multiculturalism, miscegenation, capitalism, and whatnot.

    Nick Griffin, it seems also lives in this world, but has until now managed to hide his anti-semitism. I have to say that his outburst is rather amusing… if Zionists want to promote multiculturism and miscigination, why do they want to have racial wars and tension? Is Nick against the indigenous rallying against Islamists? How can these people live with so many contradictions?

  21. Reza — on 29th September, 2009 at 2:47 pm  

    @Paul

    “This incident does not invalidate concern about the shift to the anti-immigrant right among Jews in Europe, or the corresponding shift to pro-Israel policies among right-wing xenophobic parties. At most it shows that there is an electoral opportunity for a British Wilders, unburdened by a neonazi past or antisemitic outbursts, and resolutely focussed on targeting Islam.”

    Yesterday, I was invited by a close friend to attend part of the Yom Kippur service at a small South London Synagogue where he is the cantor.

    On arrival I was astonished to see half a dozen security guards and two police officers standing outside. My friend was summoned to vouch for me and high, heavy metal gates opened to let me in. On leaving I asked one of the security guards why there was such strict security. She told me that the synagogue and the congregation had been subjected to attacks from …

    Yes, Muslim youths.

    She told me that men no longer wear the kippah in areas like Catford and Lewisham because of the harassment and violence they suffer from Muslims.

    Welcome to multicultural Britain!

    I’m not surprised that many Jewish people are realising that the liberal and tolerant policies they once supported have resulted in a very illiberal environment as tolerant British culture and values are undermined through P.C. moral equivalence, massive uncontrolled immigration and appeasement of intolerable foreign cultures, values and belief systems. Like Islam.

    So yes, it’s only natural that there is Jewish support for anti immigrant parties and Geert Wilders.

    And it’s predictable that the BNP and racists will suspect that any ostensibly non-racist, nationalistic or anti-immigration movement is controlled by some Jewish conspiracy.

    It’s probably a bit subtle for the blinkered ‘nazi!’ screaming ‘anti-fascists’ but there is a gulf of difference between BNP racists (who I loathe) and nationalists such as Wilders (who I am cautiously growing to support, with a few reservations).

  22. Kismet Hardy — on 29th September, 2009 at 4:20 pm  

    “She told me that men no longer wear the kippah in areas like Catford and Lewisham because of the harassment and violence they suffer from Muslims”

    She told you paranoid bollocks. I’ve spent pretty much my entire life in the catford/lewisham area and it’s a predonimantly black area and once in a while, there’ll be a handful of pissed off kids who’ll give hell to a muslim in muslim attire every bit as they’ll give hell to a jewish person in jewish attire every much as they’ll give hell to a transvestite in a dress. Why? Because they’re pissed off kids.

  23. Jai — on 29th September, 2009 at 4:30 pm  

    Reza,

    A polite off-topic request. Could you please translate this for me into English ?

    بنی آدم اعضای یک پیکرند

  24. Reza — on 29th September, 2009 at 4:57 pm  

    I don’t read Farsi.

    I came to England as a young child. My mother was very keen on us to integrate. So we spoke English at home. I speak it as a second language. I could ask one of my relatives to translate it, but that would be cheating.

    However

    Ageh mikhai man beh shomah neshoon midam man farsi baladam harf bezanam, mitoonam. Valee farsiam ziad khoob nist. Inja inglistaneh. Man alahn ingliseeam.

    Fehk mikonam kheyli porooeh vaseh khareji keh injah zendegi mikonham zabooneh khodesh harf mizaneh.

    Translation:

    But if you want me to show you that I can speak Farsi then I can. But my Farsi is not very good. This is England. I am now English.

    I think that it’s very rude for foreigners who live here to speak their own language.

  25. douglas clark — on 29th September, 2009 at 5:00 pm  

    Rumbold @ 11,

    Brilliant.

  26. audentior_watcher — on 29th September, 2009 at 5:21 pm  

    Correct me if i am wrong, but was it not NG who began this anti-islamic stance in the first place for his own political gains, knowing how well it had done for other right wing parties in Europe. If this audio recording is genuine then he is he once again is trying to reap the benefits.

  27. dave bones — on 29th September, 2009 at 5:58 pm  

    She told me that men no longer wear the kippah in areas like Catford and Lewisham because of the harassment and violence they suffer from Muslims.

    I am also in the area and this is very concerning. Have they tried contacting the local mosque? I know a couple of people down there and I am sure they wouldn’t like this reputation in the area and would do something about it.

  28. Don — on 29th September, 2009 at 6:27 pm  

    Jai, Saadi, right?

    بنی آدم اعضای یک پیکرند

    Human beings are members of a whole?

  29. Don — on 29th September, 2009 at 6:34 pm  

    Or put another way,

    “We’re a’ Jock Tamson’s Bairns”

  30. Jai — on 29th September, 2009 at 6:35 pm  

    Jai, Saadi, right?

    بنی آدم اعضای یک پیکرند

    Human beings are members of a whole?

    Very good, Mr Don.

  31. Amrit — on 29th September, 2009 at 7:00 pm  

    Rumbold at #11 -

    I love you.

  32. Rumbold — on 29th September, 2009 at 8:05 pm  

    Thank you one and all.

  33. douglas clark — on 29th September, 2009 at 8:28 pm  

    Or to put another way,

    “We’re a’ Jock Tamson’s Bairns”

    Yes.

    That would be the whole bloody point.

  34. douglas clark — on 29th September, 2009 at 8:42 pm  

    Or is that is not right?

  35. Rumbold — on 29th September, 2009 at 8:55 pm  

    Eh Douglas?

    What does #30 mean? I am afraid that I don’t speak Scotch.

  36. Roger — on 30th September, 2009 at 1:07 am  

    “But if you want me to show you that I can speak Farsi then I can. But my Farsi is not very good. This is England. I am now English.

    I think that it’s very rude for foreigners who live here to speak their own language.”

    Others take that opinion further: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/26/welsh-speakers-isle-of-wight

    Given the appalling ignorance of other languages- and pride in that ignorance- shown by English-speaking people, any connexion with and knowlege of, other languages, ancestral or not, should be encouraged as much as possible.

  37. douglas clark — on 30th September, 2009 at 2:25 am  

    Rumbold @ 32,

    Yes you do. It wouldn’t take a lot of interpretation to work that one out. Just assume Jock Tamson was Adam.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_Tamson's_Bairns

  38. douglas clark — on 30th September, 2009 at 3:17 am  

    Which, I suppose, is why I like most of you. And why I continue to comment on here. You are all OK. You are all Jock Tamsons bairns.

    Even you, Lee John Barnes.

    Though you will vilify me for saying so.

    A local point. And it is just that.

    You will all hate me for this, but it is also true.

    My local ‘Paki’ shop displays a Saint Andrews flag in the window. What is that about? My local Indian restaurant has waiters with a Saint Andrews badge attached to their ties.

    These folk seem to have no issue about identity, except the need to express it, as something other than Islamofascist.

    Quite surprising then!

    You, rightly, take and make your identity.

    And mine is nowhere near yours.

  39. Roger — on 30th September, 2009 at 5:26 am  

    “These folk seem to have no issue about identity, except the need to express it, as something other than Islamofascist.”

    People who feel- or feel obliged to be- so conscious of their identity do have a problem with their identity, actually.

  40. douglas clark — on 30th September, 2009 at 7:08 am  

    Roger,

    No they don’t, actually. No-one asked them to and no-one made them do it. There are quite a few Asians involved in Scottish Politics, and whilst I’ll obviously shill for those on my own side, they obviously cross party boundaries.

    Do you want me to ask them what party they stand for?

  41. Roger — on 30th September, 2009 at 7:41 am  

    I wasn’t thinking of their political opinions, Douglas. I think that people who demonstrate their Scottishness so ostentatiously probably do so because they feel obliged to. Whether the obligations are internal or external, conscious or unconscious, is another matter.
    Borges said that the proof the quran was written by an arab is that there is no mention of camels in it. Equally, people who are fully set in their self-identity feel no need to show it.

  42. douglas clark — on 30th September, 2009 at 8:13 am  

    Borges?

    Would that be an Argentine who I respect and admire?

    Asians that engage in local – i.e. Scottish politics – are representing me just as much as a white candidate. You’d best get that through your thick skull.

  43. Rumbold — on 30th September, 2009 at 8:52 am  

    Thank you for explaining Douglas. A lovely phrase.

  44. persephone — on 30th September, 2009 at 9:14 am  

    @ 36

    Who defines identity? Who defines how it is correctly shown or not shown? The individual does. Which makes it impossible for any individual, group or other 3rd party to be prescriptive (judgemental?) about it.

    Talking about ‘Asians’ identifying with being Scottish, I came across a Scottish Sikh who was very proud to be Scottish and wore a kilt. He had his kilt specially made in tartan from the Sikh Regiment.

  45. douglas clark — on 30th September, 2009 at 9:29 am  

    persephone @ 41,

    Well, I’d say he was an individual. And I’d argue that you are, and I am, and so forth.

    I have become increasingly an individual since we started to discuss ‘Britishness’. Which, beyond mutual tolerance, I don’t think exists.

    I am me, so I am. And I admire you, and Sunny Hundal, and Rumbold and the rest of the regular commentators on here, for you are me and I am you.

    Least, that’s what I think.

  46. Ravi Naik — on 30th September, 2009 at 10:16 am  

    People who feel- or feel obliged to be- so conscious of their identity do have a problem with their identity, actually.

    That’s easy to say, Roger. There is a political party in the UK whose raison d’etre is to ensure that Asians, Blacks and mixed people are excluded from the British identity, regardless of how integrated they are. How’s that to screw you over? Furthermore, Asians are not supposed to say that they are English, but rather British. Contrast that with Scotland, France or the US for that matter.

    This is a by-product of multiculturalism – which doesn’t alienate immigrants and communities for expressing their culture of origin, as opposed to countries like France or Italy. But it is rather difficult for ethnic minorities to feel English, because society keeps defining you by some established identity.

  47. douglas clark — on 30th September, 2009 at 10:46 am  

    Ravi,

    And that is why you and I think the likes of Roger is a bit shit. Well, who’d have thunk it?

  48. chairwoman — on 30th September, 2009 at 11:09 am  

    I used to be English but have become British.

    I liked being English, but being British makes me feel a bit of a second class citizen. Not quite up with the Lee John Barneses.

  49. douglas clark — on 30th September, 2009 at 11:38 am  

    chairwoman,

    Here is a measure. You are what you say you are. And I happen to love you! The likes of Lee John Barnes’ make me ashamed to share this planet with him.

  50. soru — on 30th September, 2009 at 11:55 am  

    I have become increasingly an individual since we started to discuss ‘Britishness’.

    Cue Life of Brian quote. You know the one I mean.

    Which, beyond mutual tolerance, I don’t think exists.

    It’s one thing to not mention camels. Probably quite sensible to not go on about them all the time. No need to write essays on the bactrian and the dromedary, or diatribes denouncing the unnatural cama.

    Kind of another, and rather silly, to say camels don’t exist.

  51. soru — on 30th September, 2009 at 1:51 pm  

    I have become increasingly an individual since we started to discuss ‘Britishness’.

    Cue Life of Brian quote. You know the one I mean.

    Which, beyond mutual tolerance, I don’t think exists.

    It’s one thing to not mention camels. Probably quite sensible to not go on about them all the time. No real need to write essays on the bactrian and the dromedary, let alone diatribes denouncing the unnatural cama.

    Kind of another, and rather silly, to say camels don’t exist.

  52. Roger — on 30th September, 2009 at 2:17 pm  

    “People who feel- or feel obliged to be- so conscious of their identity do have a problem with their identity, actually.

    .. There is a political party in the UK whose raison d’etre is to ensure that Asians, Blacks and mixed people are excluded from the British identity, regardless of how integrated they are. ”

    Surely that makes my point, Ravi Naik? The B.N.P. are so insecure in their sense of the British identity and their own Britishness- whatever that is- that they spend their time trying to decide what it is and excluding others from it. Integration- whatever that is- is also irrelevant. Many of the holy warfare bombers and would-be bombers who’ve been around lately were British-born and raised. Their rejection of Britain and Britishnesss and attempts to murder their fellow-citizens come from British causes.

    Well, Douglas, if your assumption that people you don’t agree with are “a bit of a shit” is characteristically Scottish, it would explain why shopkeepers and restaurateurs have to lay so much emphasis on their Scottishness.

  53. Roger — on 30th September, 2009 at 2:24 pm  

    Well, Douglas, if your assumption that people you don’t agree with are “a bit of a shit” is characteristically Scottish, it would explain why shopkeepers and restaurateurs have to lay so much emphasis on their Scottishness even- or especially- when no-one has asked them about it.

  54. douglas clark — on 30th September, 2009 at 3:00 pm  

    Roger,

    Can I quote you twice?

    I wasn’t thinking of their political opinions, Douglas. I think that people who demonstrate their Scottishness so ostentatiously probably do so because they feel obliged to. Whether the obligations are internal or external, conscious or unconscious, is another matter.
    Borges said that the proof the quran was written by an arab is that there is no mention of camels in it. Equally, people who are fully set in their self-identity feel no need to show it.

    And.

    Well, Douglas, if your assumption that people you don’t agree with are “a bit of a shit” is characteristically Scottish, it would explain why shopkeepers and restaurateurs have to lay so much emphasis on their Scottishness even- or especially- when no-one has asked them about it.

    Huh!

    Well, you might be right at my first cut and paste. Ostentatiously just about covers my feelings about my moral and intellectual superiority over you. Sorry about that. What exactly is the problem with my being right and you being wrong? Is it my geographical location that makes a difference? What an odd thought Roger.

    I am asking exactly the same question that you are. It seems to me that Pakistani immigrants into Scotland have integrated a bloody sight better, in the sense of being electible PPC’s, than they have in your part of the country. And that is without having a huge clannish following. Explain that to me, if you will.

    And the fact that they self identify as Scottish rather than British, when no-one asked them to, would defy your analysis. I am reporting facts from a major city, I am not making them up.

    I also see quite a lot of men and women who are not, ahem, coming from the same tribe, holding hands and staring into each others eyes. Without you asking me to be a pervert, I’d have thought that these people might well end up in the sack together. And nobody seems to give a shit.

    And nobody seems to give a shit.

    Perhaps that is not, exactly, the truth. But they are a horrible minority.

  55. Roger — on 30th September, 2009 at 3:57 pm  

    You really don’t get it, do you, Douglas?
    “My local ‘Paki’ shop displays a Saint Andrews flag in the window. What is that about? My local Indian restaurant has waiters with a Saint Andrews badge attached to their ties.

    “These folk seem to have no issue about identity, except the need to express it, as something other than Islamofascist.”

    What about all of the other local shops? What about the other restaurants? Do they all display saltires so prominently? Or is it only “Pakis” who need to display their Scottishness? If that is so, it might be worth wondering why. Perhaps these folk have an issue about identity or they are worried other folk have an issue about their identity or both. Indeed, the fact that you see the alternative identities as Scottish or Islamofascist suggests that you have issues with “Pakis” who don’t flap the flag.

  56. douglas clark — on 30th September, 2009 at 5:29 pm  

    Roger,

    I don’t know. But neither do you. I am suggesting to you that your aversion to integration is a piece of shit.

    I actually don’t care whether Pakistanis’ wave the St Andrews Cross around or not. I am reporting what I have seen.

    And the more important point is that folk, seem to me at least, to be following their love interest, rather than your prejudice. That is what is interesting. On that basis, what do you see around you, Roger?

  57. Don — on 30th September, 2009 at 5:56 pm  

    Roger,

    Or is it only “Pakis” who need to display their Scottishness?

    Purely annecdotal, but I spend quite a lot of time in Scotland and Scots of all complexions do seem keener to visibly assert their national identity than do people in England. Various historical reasons, of course, but if you ever get up there it is actually quite noticeable.

    I agree with whoever it was earlier (and on another thread) who said that you might be able to identify an English, Scots or Welsh culture but that a British one was too nebulous. I’m English by birth and residence, but feel British because the usual markers of ‘Englishness’ seem somewhat remote here in Northumberland. Culturally we probably have more in common with Scotland or Scandinavia than we do with Richmond-on-Thames and Essex.

  58. Roger — on 30th September, 2009 at 6:59 pm  

    What “aversion to integration”, Douglas?
    I do not think people should be or feel obliged to integrate- I’m not sure just what you mean by integrate, anyway- which is a rather different thing. I also think that your “Paki” fellow-citizens may feel or be obliged to demonstrate their loyalty- their integration, if you like- in a way that other people aren’t. You are reporting what you’ve seen. If you’ve seen that these shops display the saltire then you’ve seen that others do as well. So, again, how many other shops feel the same obligation to show their Scotttishness?

    “Scots of all complexions do seem keener to visibly assert their national identity than do people in England.”
    My family comes from Scotland, Don, and I’d agree. Northumbrians also very specifically identify themselves. However, I wonder if the examples Douglas cited- specifically “Paki”- are examples of voluntary or enforced identification.

  59. douglas clark — on 30th September, 2009 at 7:37 pm  

    Roger,

    Call me a liar outright, why don’t you? I am reporting on what I have seen, rather than what you would like me to have seen.

    Whether it is a trend or not, I don’t know. But it is obvious enough for me to commentate on it

    I think you are the idiot around here.

  60. persephone — on 30th September, 2009 at 9:16 pm  

    @42

    Why thank you Douglas

  61. persephone — on 30th September, 2009 at 9:29 pm  

    “ People who feel- or feel obliged to be- so conscious of their identity do have a problem with their identity, actually. “

    How you do deduce it is down to identity?.

    During remembrance I may buy a Poppy and wear it – how funny if some people may think it is co-erced upon me or due to an identity problem. I sometimes give the donation without taking the Poppy to save the charities expenses. By not wearing it do some people interpret that as not being integrated or culturally British enough then? Both are big judgements to make if you don’t know the person.

  62. Roger — on 30th September, 2009 at 10:03 pm  

    “Call me a liar outright, why don’t you? I am reporting on what I have seen, rather than what you would like me to have seen.”
    I don’t think you are a liar, Douglas. I think you draw conclusions that are not justified by the evidence and that you make assumptions when there is no evidence at all to support them. I also asked you if you had seen other things- how many other shops feel the same obligation to show their Scotttishness?

    “Whether it is a trend or not, I don’t know. But it is obvious enough for me to commentate on it”
    But what is the trend, Douglas? The evidence you cite can be interpreted equally validly in various ways: that shopkeepers or restaurateurs in Scotland choose to demonstrate their Scottishness, that shopkeepers or restaurateurs in Scotland feel obliged to demonstrate their Scottishness, that shopkeepers or restaurateurs in Scotland who are not obviously scottish by ancestry choose to demonstrate their Scottishness, that shopkeepers or restaurateurs in Scotland who are not obviously scottish by ancestry feel obliged to demonstrate their Scottishness or some combination thereof.

    “I think you are the idiot around here.”
    An example of your habit of making assumptions when there is no evidence at all to support them and when they are completely irrelevant to the topic on hand.

  63. Roger — on 30th September, 2009 at 10:16 pm  

    ““ People who feel- or feel obliged to be- so conscious of their identity do have a problem with their identity, actually. “

    How you do deduce it is down to identity?.”

    I don’t, Persephone, Douglas does, or appears to, I was replying to a specific claim:

    ““These folk seem to have no issue about identity, except the need to express it, as something other than Islamofascist.”

    People who feel- or feel obliged to be- so conscious of their identity do have a problem with their identity, actually.”

    “During remembrance I may buy a Poppy and wear it – how funny if some people may think it is co-erced upon me or due to an identity problem. I sometimes give the donation without taking the Poppy to save the charities expenses. By not wearing it do some people interpret that as not being integrated or culturally British enough then? Both are big judgements to make if you don’t know the person.”

    You are showing the characteristic- and universal- unconscious signs of our common mixed identity. Off topic, you don’t save the charity money by not taking the poppy; they’ve already paid for their manufacture; you show that you have already got one and so sellers will not approach you again.

    Douglas seems to think that the examples he gives show that they are Scottish shops or restaurants run by Scottish people and that this is a good thing. I think that if people display or insist on their Scottishness- or any other quality- when it is irrelevant then it is worth wondering why they do so or feel obliged to do so.

  64. douglas clark — on 30th September, 2009 at 10:44 pm  

    Roger @ 59,

    I also asked you if you had seen other things- how many other shops feel the same obligation to show their Scotttishness?

    Off the top of my head? Not that many. Which is what makes it a bit remarkable.

    Look. I don’t care whether people ally with a localised nationality for commercial or other reasons. All I am reporting are the facts as I see them. these folk are not being threatened into that identity. It is their choice. I’d posit that they see something worthwhile in the society they find themselves in. Out of curiosity, how many of your local, ethnically owned, shops or restaurants display the Cross of Saint George?

  65. Roger — on 30th September, 2009 at 11:03 pm  

    “I also asked you if you had seen other things- how many other shops feel the same obligation to show their Scotttishness?

    Off the top of my head? Not that many. Which is what makes it a bit remarkable.”
    It does indeed. How do you know “these folk are not being threatened into that identity” if you have not checked further?

    “Out of curiosity, how many of your local, ethnically owned, shops or restaurants display the Cross of Saint George?”
    I haven’t got a clue, nor do I care. I know quite a few places that are deliberately English- a bookshop that specialises in specifically English poetry and several restaurants that specialise in specifically English cooking, for example- but they make a point of not emphasising it, so as not to embarass the foreigners.

  66. persephone — on 1st October, 2009 at 10:26 am  

    Roger

    I read it that he felt they did not have any issues with identity, in so much they were comfortable displaying emblems from a society they felt comfortable in. A society that was letting them be. Which, in comparison to societies which emphasise britishness/identity, may have the opposite effect ie Islamic fundamentalism.

    “Off topic, you don’t save the charity money by not taking the poppy; they’ve already paid for their manufacture; you show that you have already got one and so sellers will not approach you again. “

    I do it so they can ‘resell’ the Poppy which makes each one more profitable & leaves more stock. This is even when I am not wearing one.

    “You are showing the characteristic- and universal- unconscious signs of our common mixed identity. “

    This is where I see that it all goes wrong. When it is judged as identity. Its more a common value or just plain humanity. I have been brought up to help others, especially charitable concerns and to put something back. Saying it is mixed identity infers it is borrowed from another identity. And I have a problem with that.

  67. Roger — on 2nd October, 2009 at 6:48 am  

    “I read it that he felt they did not have any issues with identity, in so much they were comfortable displaying emblems from a society they felt comfortable in. A society that was letting them be. Which, in comparison to societies which emphasise britishness/identity, may have the opposite effect ie Islamic fundamentalism.”

    Or a society where they must show emblems displaying their identity? It doesn’t matter whether it is they themselves or others that exert the pressure or whether it is conscious or unconscious. After all, Douglas said he had not noticed- he had not looked, perhaps- for such emblems in other shops.
    It’s perfectly possible to be Scottish and an islamic fundamentalist; in fact, a chap named Osama Saeed is both a leading Scottish Nationalist and an islamist of the Caliphate Now brigade. Whetehr his plans for an independent Scotland involve a Scottish caliphate, I don’t know.

    “I do it so they can ‘resell’ the Poppy which makes each one more profitable & leaves more stock. This is even when I am not wearing one.”
    Your economic theory would only apply if there were a shortage of poppies or they were expensive to make. Neither is true. More than are needed are made and they don’t cost much to make anyway.

    “You are showing the characteristic- and universal- unconscious signs of our common mixed identity. “

    This is where I see that it all goes wrong. When it is judged as identity. Its more a common value or just plain humanity. I have been brought up to help others, especially charitable concerns and to put something back. Saying it is mixed identity infers it is borrowed from another identity. And I have a problem with that.”

    Well, “identity” was Douglas’s term, but what’s wrong with it? What’s wrong with “our human identity” as a term rather than “humanity”? All aspects of our individual identity or individuality- choose the term you prefer- derive from others. They are not “borrowed” at all. Our every identity is mixed- that is why I said there was no such thing as a completely muslim or British or Scottish culture. Culture is made up of individuals and is what they identify as having in common. Our own identities are made up of our every experience, which means they are very mixed indeed. The problems come when people feel obliged to emphasise one aspect of their identity- and they are problems for themselves as well as others.

  68. Wendy — on 2nd October, 2009 at 8:29 am  

    Scots Nats and Islamists?

    Hey, would all the Muslims in England want to move to an Independent Caledonia and establish a Tartan Caliphate?

    Now THAT would be a real vote-winner for the Tories: two birds with one stone!

  69. douglas clark — on 2nd October, 2009 at 9:00 am  

    Roger,

    I think you are reading more into what I said than was actually there.

    I would say this, however.

    Both the SNP and the Labour Party can stand Asians in constituencies that are not dominated by Asians. Apart from the occasional nutter, no-one cares. They are politicians, that is their identity.

    Since you seem to know a bit about Osama Saeed, the SNP candidate for Glasgow Central, which I assume you got on the gossip site “The Spittoon”, perhaps you’d like to know about his nearest challenger?

    This would be another Asian called Anas Sarwar. He is the son of the current MP for Glasgow Govan. The elder Mr Sarwar is standing down, and his son has been parachuted into Glasgow Central. There seems to be some debate about how that happened. A vote given perhaps?

    Err.. This would be his other son:

    http://moderntribalist.blogspot.com/2007/06/britain-son-of-millionaire-labour-mp.html

    Quite the little political story.

    And still and still and still.

    I see folk holding hands and looking into each others eyes, and usually I think nothing of it. For that is what happens. It is not made up. It is real. Why are you trying to say it isn’t?

    Our every identity is mixed- that is why I said there was no such thing as a completely muslim or British or Scottish culture. Culture is made up of individuals and is what they identify as having in common. Our own identities are made up of our every experience, which means they are very mixed indeed. The problems come when people feel obliged to emphasise one aspect of their identity- and they are problems for themselves as well as others.

    This will probably drive you nuts :-)

    I agree with you, sort of.

    You can only explain your own experience from your own experience. That is all that is available to us. My immediate experience is not as apocalyptic as yours. I have hung around here almost since the start, and contrary to your ideas, I have said here that if Sunny or Sonia wanted to stand for Parliament, then I’d drop everything to support them. That is on the basis that I agree with them. In fact, I am influenced by them.

    For, as often as not, their ideas are better than mine.

  70. Sofia — on 2nd October, 2009 at 9:19 am  

    Wendy – you seem to like the ‘two birds with one stone’ message..boring! Try to find a new one…

  71. Kismet Hardy — on 2nd October, 2009 at 9:42 am  

    As idioms go, killing two birds with one stone is crap. Have you tried killing one bird with one stone? Im-fucking-possible. Swatting two flies with one rolled-up magazine, now that is, while difficult, ultimately attainable.

  72. persephone — on 2nd October, 2009 at 9:58 am  

    Roger

    I would not big it up by calling it ‘economic theory’ more pragmatism. I worked with a Finance Director took the view that every little saving helps towards profitability. He would remind every one not to fill the kettle up for making just one cup of tea as it wastes electricity. Am not sure he would cite it as ‘economic theory’ more like Northern (England) pragmatism. He would always argue if a big order of such ‘giveaways’ was actually needed.

    As to terminology, identity is currently a very loaded and political term. Humanity, so far, is not.

  73. not-soru — on 2nd October, 2009 at 10:33 am  

    I have become increasingly an individual since we started to discuss ‘Britishness’.

    Cue Life of Brian quote. You know the one I mean.

    Which, beyond mutual tolerance, I don’t think exists.

    It’s one thing to not mention camels. Probably quite sensible to not go on about them all the time. No real need to write essays on the bactrian and the dromedary, let alone diatribes denouncing the unnatural cama.

    Kind of another, and rather silly, to say camels don’t exist.

  74. douglas clark — on 2nd October, 2009 at 4:10 pm  

    not-soru,

    Y’know, this discussion has being going on so long I don’t know whether these are quotes from me or against me. And I am past caring…

  75. silent voice — on 10th October, 2009 at 12:12 am  

    why shoukd there not be an english defence league? seems to me we have left it to long in other peoples hands to rid this country of it’s invaiders! our grandfathers fought 2 wars for it and for what ? it has been took from us without a gun shot in fact the govenment has basicaly let people come in to this country and rape our nhs and claim benefits plus take our council houses that are ment for our own people who cannot get work or have other problems all our jobs are going to immigrants for cut price wages and we sit back and let it happen ! well now the people are fed up and are not going to be walked all over and made to feel like aliens in our own country it was always coming that this would happen the peoples blood is boiling and its only a matter of time.

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