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Sort of, anyway …

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http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2009/0928092geimer1.html

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ALL is explained !

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http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/1203081roman1.html

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“Polanski brought libel proceedings over the publication of a July 2002 article in Vanity Fair.

The article had alleged that in 1969, on the way back from London to Los Angeles for the funeral of his wife Sharon Tate, who had been murdered by Charles Manson, he had sought to seduce a young woman in the famous Manhattan bar, Elaine’s.

It was alleged that he concluded his seduction with the promise, ‘And I will make another Sharon Tate out of you’ – possibly not the best chat-up line given the unfortunate fate of the late Ms Tate.

The director denies this categorically and argues that the article depicts him as showing a callous indifference to the fate of his murdered wife. However, the defendant, while now stating that the incident took place not on the way to but perhaps some few weeks after the burial, continues to assert that it did occur. The publishers argue that the claimant did indeed show a ‘callous indifference’ to his wife’s memory.”

“Polanski’s supporters are indignant that, after all these years, the US authorities have now asked another country to arrest him – on a warrant extending back to 1977 – and to hold him pending extradition. Why now and not before, they demand to know?

Except it isn’t a ‘sudden decision’ at all. …. in 2003 about how Polanski, in trying to sue Condé Nast Publications for libel, appealed all the way to the House of Lords to be allowed to give evidence by video. He wanted to testify by video because he feared that, if he set foot in the UK, he would be arrested on the warrant for the 1977 rape charge.

The intention to arrest him has been genuine all along.

Samantha Geimer, Polanski’s victim, is now 45-years-old and a mother of three. She has moved on and has forgiven him. But what if she hadn’t had the emotional strength to put it all behind her? What if her life had been blighted by flashbacks, post-traumatic stress disorder, fear of men, horror of intimacy, drug abuse, self-harm, or even suicide?

Would Polanski’s apologists have said Geimer’s tragic life was a small price to pay for the cinematic legacy of Chinatown, Rosemary’s Baby, The Pianist and the rest?”

“If I had killed somebody, it wouldn’t have had so much appeal to the press, you see? But… fucking, you see, and the young girls. Judges want to fuck young girls. Juries want to fuck young girls. Everyone wants to fuck young girls!”

These people think they are above the law, don’t they?

…but this is an artist! which in France is like a superior human being. Oh la la, the land of liberte, egalite, fraternite, what a bunch of hypocrites!

Yes, and that’s why people don’t take them seriously…

Heh. Lessons in Biblical exegesis from the man who thinks that Jesus being quoted in three Gospels means that Jesus said something three times.

The sin is padeophilia.

So a victim of paedophilia is guilty of the sin of paedophilia. Right.

The fact is that the sin refers to the act, not culpability on the part of the victim.

So a victim of paedophilia commits the sin of paedophilia, but it’s not their fault. Okay.

The prefix ‘whoever causes’ shows that the act is not one of co-operation or participation, it is a forced act, a non-consensual act. The ‘to sin’ refers to the sinful act of paedohilia, to which the victim is of course a participant though an unwilling one.

And that’s where you lose it. ‘To sin’ does not mean ‘to participate in a sinful act’, it means ‘to sin’. That’s why it says, ‘to sin’, and not something else. Because it means ‘to sin’.

True consent, as the law states, only occurs after the age of 16. Until then any sex, including ‘consexual’ sex between an adult and a minor where the child may think they are consenting, is rape.

But, of course, children are never referred to as ‘participating in the act of rape’. Because they have been victims of rape, by virtue of their inability to consent.

In real life, it’s not even clear that that Jesus is talking about paedophilia here at all, since ‘to sin’ could mean so many things that the wording differs between different editions of the Bible from ‘offend these little ones’ to causing a child to ‘stumble’ or ‘lose his faith’.

It’s just funny how quickly you leap to the defence of someone saying that victims of paedophilia have ‘sinned’ when it’s a holy figure you like.

You seem to have gone quiet on the thread where you’re pointed out to have equated Zionist with Jew. Care to comment on that one?

Of course they fucking well can’t. The thing that really winds me up about people like you and Lee Barnes is that if a commenter doesn’t start with “I think paedophilia is disgusting” you actually think they approve of it. As far as I’m concerned anyone who has sex with a child is committing rape regardless of whether or not they kid themselves that the child is consenting. As for Muhammad, I’m not a Muslim and I don’t particularly care what the moral landscape was when he was alive – by today’s standards, which are my standards, what he did was paedophilia, just like Roman Polanski. The difference between me and, say, Lee Barnes, is that I don’t try to make out that paedophilia is only something that dirty foreigners do, nor am I trying to use it as an excuse to chuck law-abiding British Muslim citizens out of the country.

Richard I is often held up as some sort of ultimate British nationalist icon when the truth is that he spent less than 6 months of his 10 year reign in this country and was rumoured to enjoy fiddling with young boys. But OK, forget about Richard I. Let’s talk about Hitler, a mass-murderer who many people in the BNP revere as a fine leader – or for that matter Stalin, a mass-murderer who amazingly is still thought of nostalgically by some on the hard-left. I think it’s pretty fucking freaky that there are English people who admire Hitler and Stalin. I don’t actually think that’s very much less twisted, if at all, than admiring Muhammad. But you don’t see me trying to throw them out of their own country because of it, much though I detest it. That’s the point.

The fact is that the sin refers to the act, not culpability on the part of the victim.

“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.”

The words ‘whoever CAUSES … to sin’

‘Whoever causes’ refers to the act of the abuser, the ‘to sin’ refers to the act of paedophilia itself.

The prefix ‘whoever causes’ shows that the act is not one of co-operation or participation, it is a forced act, a non-consensual act. The ‘to sin’ refers to the sinful act of paedohilia, to which the victim is of course a participant though an unwilling one.

The act is sinful, not the victim.

In many child abuse cases the victim is groomed into sexual activity and may not resist it or may even participate ‘willingly’ as a result of psychological abuse and grooming, though of course they cannot truly consent – the fact they are ‘little ones’ means they cannot consent even if they do consent.

True consent, as the law states, only occurs after the age of 16. Until then any sex, including ‘consexual’ sex between an adult and a minor where the child may think they are consenting, is rape.

“The passage states that the crime is to make children sin, it says NOTHING about the victims of paedophilia are also sinners.”

What is the sin that children commit then?

“Compare this to Jesus who said Paedophiles should be executed ;

In the Bible’s New Testament, Jesus tells his disciples, “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea.”

He didnt say this just once – but more than once.

(see Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42; and Luke 17:2)”

It’s not so much that to believe this passage is a call to execute paedophiles you’d have to also believe that being the victim of paedophilia is a sin that struck me.

#### Old Hamster Brain is back I see.

The passage states that the crime is to make children sin, it says NOTHING about the victims of paedophilia are also sinners.

Thats just your tiny hamster brain making up things because you are too dumb to understand what is written.

. Sahih al-Bukhari 810-870 A.D. 256 A.H.

1a. “Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.” Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.236 p.153.

1b. The same points are in Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.43 no.234 p.152.

1c. “Narrated ‘Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six year old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.60 no.88 p.65

1d. Narrated ‘Aisha: The Prophet was screening me with his Rida’ (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl (who has not reached the age of puberty) who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect. Bukhari vol.7 book 62 ch.115 no.163 p.119

1e. “Narrated ‘Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) I never remembered my parents believing in any religion other than the true religion (i.e. Islam), and (I don’t remember) a single day passing without our being visited by Allah’s Apostle in the morning and in the evening.” Bukhari vol.5 book 58 ch.44 no.245 p.158. Thus ‘Aisha was either not very old or not born yet when her parents became Muslims. This is consistent with her being a child when her marriage with Mohammed was consummated.

2. Sahih Muslim 817-875 A.D. 261 A.H.

This is generally considered the second most reliable collection of hadiths.

2a. “(3309) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She too hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have shared in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.” Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3309 p.715-716

2b. “(3310) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.”

(3311) ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married here when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and here dolls were with her: and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.” Sahih Muslim vol.2 book 8 ch.548 no.3310,3311 p.716.

2c. “(5981) ’A’isha reported that she used to play with dolls in the presence of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), whereas Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent them to her.

2d. (5982) This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Hisham with the same chain of transmitters with a slight variation of wording.” Sahih Muslim vol.4 book 29 ch.1005 no.5981-5982 p.1299

3. Sunan Abu Dawud 817-888/9 A.D. 275 A.H.

3a. “(2116) ‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven years old. The narrator Sulaiman said : Or six years. He had intercourse with me when I was nine years old.” Sunan Abu Dawud vol.2 book 5 ch.700 no.2116 p.569

3b. “(4913) ‘A’ishah said : I used to play with dolls. Sometimes the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon me when the girls were with me. When he came in, they went out, and when he went out, they came in.” Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1769 no.4913 p.1373

Note carefully this is NOT saying Mohammed had intercourse with A’isha while her playmates were watching. Rather it says the playmates played with her, and they went out when Mohammed came by, and could come back after he left.

3c. “(4915) ‘A’ishah said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. According to Bishr’s version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Abu Dawud said : That is to say : I menstruated, and I was brought in a house, and there were some women of the Ansari (Helpers) in it. They said : With good luck and blessing. The tradition of one of them has been included in the other. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915 p.1374

3d. (5916) [typo, really 4916] The tradition mentioned above has also been transmitted by Abu Usamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: ‘With good fortune.’ She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4916 p.1374

3e. (4917) ‘A’ishah said: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were [sp] up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4917 p.1374

3f. (4918) The tradition mentioned above has also been transmitted by Hisham b. ‘Urwah through a different chain of narrators. This version adds: I was swinging and I had my friends. They brought me to a house ; there were some women of the Ansar (Helpers). They said : With good luck and blessing. Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4918 p.1374

3g. (4919) ‘A’ishah said : We came to Medina and stayed with Banu al-Harith b. al-Khazraj. She said : I swear by Allah, I was swinging between two date-palms. Then my mother came, and made me come down; and I had my hair up to the ears. The transmitter then mentioned the rest of the tradition.” Sunan Abu Dawud vol.3 book 36 ch.1770 no.4915-4919 p.1374.

Conclusion on Abu Dawud: 7 references and no counter-references affirm that A’isha was nine.

4. Tirmidhi 825-892 A.D. 209-279 A.H.

“..Ahmad and Is’haq said that if a female orphan reaches nine years old and was wed with her consent, then the marriage is permissible and she will have no choice when she matures. The two relied on a hadith by Ai’sha stating that the prophet peace be upon him had sexual relations with her when she was nine. Aisha said, if the little girl reaches nine then she is a woman” Tirmidhi said: A good hadith. (Tirmidhi, “Marriage according to Allah’s apostle”, #1027)

5. Sunan Nas’ai 830-915 A.D. 215-303 A.H.

5a. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was six and had intercourse with her when she was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3255)

5b. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was seven and had intercourse with me when I was nine. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)

5c. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was nine and I accompanied him for nine years. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3257)

5d. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married her when she was nine and died when she was eighteen. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3258)

5e. A’ishah said: The Apostle of Allah peace be upon him married me when I was six and had intercourse with me when I was nine and I was playing with dolls. (Sunan Nas’ai, Book of Marriage, no.3256)

Note that the previous are in original Arabic, but were not in the English translation. However, the English translator at the front wrote the following under #18.

“When Hadrat ‘A’isha passed nine years of married life, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) fell in mortal sickness. On the 9th or the 12th of Rabi-ul-Awwal 11 A.H., he left this mortal world…Hadrat ‘A’isha was eighteen years of age at the time when the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) passed away and she remained a widow for forty-eight years till she died at the age of sixty-seven.” Sunan Nasa’i vol.1 #18 p.108-109 (English material at the front)

Note that she had nine years of married life with Mohammed, and since he died when she was eighteen, she was nine years old when she started her married life with Mohammed.

Conclusion on Sunan Nasa’i: Not counting English translation notes, the Arabic has 5 references and no counter-references to affirm that A’isha was nine.

6. Ibn-i-Majah 824-886/887 A.D. 273 A.H.

6a. A’isha was married when she was six years old, and nine when she went to Mohammed’s house. Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 book 9 ch.13 no.1876 p.133

6b. A’isha was married at seven, went to Mohammed’s house at nine, and was 18 when Mohammed died. According to al-Zawa’id, its isnad is sahih according to the condition of Bukhari. However Abu ‘Ubaida did not hear from his father, so it is munqata (has a gap) Ibn-i-Majah vol.3 book 9 ch.13 no.1877 p.134.

7. The Historian ibn Ishaq – died 767/773 A.D. 145/151 A.H.

7a. “Yahya b. Abbad b. Abdullah b. al-Zubayr from his father told me that he heard Aisha say: “The apostle died in my bosom during my turn: I had wronged none in regard to him. It was due to my ignorance and extreme youth that the apostle died in my arms.”"
(Guillaume, A., The Life of Muhammad, a translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, Oxford University Press, Karachi, Pakistan, page 682). A’isha said she was an extreme youth when Mohammed died.

8. The Historian al-Tabari – died 923 A.D.

8a. ‘Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.9 p.129-131. Muhammad b. ‘Amr is one of the transmitters.

8b. ‘Aisha was 6-7 when married, and the marriage was consummated when she was 9-10, three months after coming to Mecca al-Tabari vol.7 p.7. The chain of transmission includes an unnamed man from the Quraysh.

8c. Aisha died in June-July 678 A.D. (A.H. 58) at the age of 66. That would make her born in 610 A.D.. al-Tabari says she consummated her marriage with the prophet when she was nine years old. al-Tabari vol.39 p.171,173. (al-Tabari wrote 38 volumes of history, plus a 39th volume called Biographies of the Prophet’s Companions and Their Successors.)

X 8c. On the other hand, al-Tabari also wrote that i.e. “All four of his [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives — the names of whom we have already mentioned — during the pre-Islamic period.” (Tarikhu’l-umam wa’l-mamlu’k, Al-Tabari, vol.4, p.50, Arabic, Dara’l-fikr, Beirut, 1979. al-Tabari vol.11 p.141 also mentions this, with footnote 766 saying al-Tabari has a conflict here. The footnote also says that al-Baladhuri’s Ansab I, p.409-411; Ibn Hajar’s Isabah IV, p.359-360 supports her being married by 9 years old.

Newflash: neither King Richard nor King John claimed to be God’s final ‘prophet’ and nor did they claim to have perfect morals…. as is the case with the Bedouin pedophile.

Men who have sex with nine year old girls can never been seen as moral models to emulate.

In the Hadith the age of Aisha is mentioned more than once, and so there can be no doubt she was but nine years old when raped.

“Compare this to Jesus who said Paedophiles should be executed ;

(see Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42; and Luke 17:2)”

It’s not so much that to believe this passage is a call to execute paedophiles you’d have to also believe that being the victim of paedophilia is a sin that struck me.

It’s the ‘he didn’t say this just once’ bit. Lee, if you’re reading this, the Gospels are supposed to be four accounts of the same story. Matthew, Mark and Luke are telling of Jesus saying this once.

No wonder you’re not a proper lawyer. Did you think Jesus was born twice because the nativity is in Luke and Matthew?