It would be excellent to see all parties represented.

http://www.UKandSpain.com/strange

b’shalom

bananabrain

I suppose the prejudice arises because only one aspect is seen which makes it look very feudal. I know that members of my family, decades after leaving India, still helped the poorer of their ex workers and their families as immigration meant they were left without income and housing. Yes there is a ‘servant’ culture but there is also a responsible community & charitable culture that co-exists alongside it.

Having cleaners, gardeners and even au pairs is not really the same as having servants like they have in places like South Africa. But we don’t like it when we see it there. Where white people (ar anyone these days) employs township women to come and take care of madam’s domestic needs. And there’s half a dozen young men mowing the grass and sweeping up the leaves of some walled Johannesburg villa

much like employing an au pair, there’s a socially responsible way to do it and a disposable, cookie-cutter “flush them when you’re done” way of doing it. my friends in johannesburg (who are pretty much all jewish liberals) always told me that the done thing was that when you took on a maid, you took on the whole family and overmanned everything simply to have excuses to employ them whereas otherwise they’d have trouble getting other work in the city or a place to crash. apparently the rest of the social contract would involve improving their houses back in the townships or home villages and paying for college. now, obviously that is not a sustainable model (and, of course, it highlights how distorted the pricing of labour actually was) but for those that chose to see it as a social project rather than a divine white right (which, i dare say, was not nearly enough) there was an ethical way to undermine the system. in the new south africa, of course, i expect this doesn’t happen so much any more, hopefully for good reasons, but it’s been a while since i talked to any of them about it.

b’shalom

bananabrain

No they are not all wealthy (UK anyhow). Quite a few have to borrow or sell the family silver to pay for a flight & have a relly over here who is prepared to stand as a sponsor.

Yes that’s true obviously. And you just have to talk to people in the health service from overseas (like the few I know) to understand what a pain it is to try to stay legal and get on with your life here, when changes are announced to ”reduce the number of foreign doctors and nurses” like like has happened a couple of times here in the last few years.

This thread is about the BNP and Alan Johnson saying he would not appear with Griffin on Question Time because the BNP are so prejudiced (which they are).
I’m just saying that we all can have prejudices, and being on Edgware road again this evening, I seem to have some prejudices too.

I walked along that road again this evening, with an hour to kill before my next delivery and looked in at the Abu Ali resturant and the Al-Dar resturant across the road from it.
They are pretty authentic Arabic places, with patrons sitting outside (with the Al-Dar providing an outside shisha smoking area) as well as Starbucks and Costa Coffee that are also popular with people of Arabic origin, sitting outside at the tables having a drink, smoke and a chat.

I remember back when Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1991 that there were ”Free Kuwait” posters and stickers to be seen in the area. I didn’t feel a great deal of sympathy back then, and maybe this still clouds my judgement today.

And I take your point Persephone when you say ”though I do not envy the women because other aspects of their life are quite dire”, because that’s how I see it too. And compare this kind of wealthier Arabic culture to that that I’ve seen in Morocco and Tunisia, with so many unemployed men whiling away their days sitting outside cafes, and when talking to some of them, was told that they bearly had enough money for a few teas and coffees and cigarettes.

I worked with a German chef once (who had worked in the Gulf in an American Hotel) and was full of bigoted prejudices about the culture he had seen there.
I wanted to argue against his chauvanistic (racist) atitude, but it was quite difficult, as anecdotally, the things he railed about may well have been true.

Having cleaners, gardeners and even au pairs is not really the same as having servants like they have in places like South Africa. But we don’t like it when we see it there. Where white people (ar anyone these days) employs township women to come and take care of madam’s domestic needs. And there’s half a dozen young men mowing the grass and sweeping up the leaves of some walled Johannesburg villa (the ones with the electric wire rinning on top of the walls – that carry the Armed Response security notices).
http://jlpowers.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/armed-response1-300×225.jpg

And Bananabrain, of course having an au-pair can be OK. My sister did it in France 30 years ago and it’s a fond memory of hers.
It was funny though today, hearing about Baroness Scotland having an illegal cleaer.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100010256/the-liberal-elite-prefer-their-servants-to-be-immigrants/

The guy who wrote that may have a point (even if he is a Daily Telegraph hack).

“However, it does differ in that the Spanish or Portuguese don’t claim that British expats are a net drain on their State.”

Is another difference that they do not agonise to the same extent over the percentage of the population that the British immigrants occupy? That in itself means a country resources are being utilised and creation of high density ex pat areas where a Spanish face is rare & English is the main language.

“But you can’t deny that there are one or two immigrant groups that clearly are.”

The biggest group in my mind are those who rely on welfare as they have no inclination to work – regardless of origin.

“Try reading this. You might find it enlightening”

The link is not live

Reza, can you define who you see as an immigrant?

I see all as citizens (whether by birth or naturalisation) and as such should attract the same benefits & rights as any other citizen.

If you are assessing which groups are taking the most benefits then what are the figures for all citizen groups. Perhaps a few unconvenient truths may arise.

“ I am strident about this subject because I believe that allowing the BNP to have a monopoly on these inconvenient truths gives them a credibility they don’t deserve.”

The BNP operate in the hazy hate fuelled grey area of using propoganda and policies which do not have much grist or truth behind them when they are quizzed by reasonable people. It means their rationale is based on racist bile. An unconvenient lie does not have any credibility.

b’shalom

bananabrain

“Oh it is in so many ways.”

I accept that it is, in terms of some the negative effects of immigration, such as a failure to make the effort to integrate and a lack of respect for the culture and values of your host country. Creating ghettos, damaging established communities and harming social cohesion.

However, it does differ in that the Spanish or Portuguese don’t claim that British expats are a net drain on their State. (As they do with say, North Africans and East European Roma).

I accept that most immigrants to Britain aren’t a net drain on the State either. But you can’t deny that there are one or two immigrant groups that clearly are.

Try reading this. You might find it enlightening:-

http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches_pdfs/dispatches_immigrants.pdf

“Dispatches will reveal which immigrant groups, by country of origin, appear as a debit and which as a credit on Britain’s balance sheet – uncovering some key facts about immigration.”

The problem persephone, is that whilst you are happy to highlight all the tangible (as well as many more intangible) benefits of immigration, you’re unwilling to accept that there are considerable and demostrable downsides.

Something you have in common with many people. Hence the increasing credibility, among many British people, of nasty outfits such as the BNP.

I am strident about this subject because I believe that allowing the BNP to have a monopoly on these inconvenient truths gives them a credibility they don’t deserve. If reasonable people are willing to admit inconvenient truths then that monopoly is taken from them.

And then they become nothing more than an irrelevant bunch of racists with far-left economic policies.

“ because people who can afford to immigrate are often not typical of their country as a whole. “

No they are not all wealthy (UK anyhow). Quite a few have to borrow or sell the family silver to pay for a flight & have a relly over here who is prepared to stand as a sponsor.

“ When you see this situation again and again, maybe a certain resentment can creep in “

Yes I can see that a lavish lifestyle can have that affect. In the cases you have mentioned though I do not envy the women because other aspects of their life are quite dire.

“And anyone who employs servants (and nannys and au pairs?)”

I sometimes have a cleaner if I am working long hours. But I am my own ‘servant’ when it comes to the gardening.

Oh it is in so many ways.

BTW – I’d get some new ‘friends’ if I were you. And he may too going by what you write about him.

The state funding of such things is the ethos of being in a country with a welfare state which other developed countries do not have. A lot of Britons are proud of that fact.

If we reverted that ethos, demolished the welfare state & the types of state funded initiatives you mention and met claims from taxpayers for the resultant tax savings it would impact widely.

Such a move would not just affect the ‘immigrants’.

Unless your view is that ‘immigrants’ only take and do not pay taxes.

Like everything, best to judge on an individual basis.

I employ a “servant” if you mean a cleaner.

Yeah I have come across loads of high net worths of all races from all over the globe. I think its a monied and class thing rather than a race thing.

I agree Persephone, but my point was really, that with some people who don’t travel themselves, these might be the most common examples of people from a particular country or region they see.

So I think it’s perfectly fair for a French peasant to have a dim view of English incommers who are trying to live the Year in Provence ideal.

I was delivering water cooler bottles a while back, and sometimes delivered in the Edgware Road/Paddington area. Many times I’d go into a flat in the expensive appartment blocks and mansion buildings there, and see the appartment was occupied by Arab people, who must have had a bit of money. A servant would open the door, (you presume she’s a servant when she’s from south east Asia and the rest of them are Arab.)
As soon as she lets you in she goes back to the kitchen to continue her chores.

In the living room you catch sight of women still sitting around in their dressing gowns in the middle of the afternoon watching arabic TV.

When you see this situation again and again, maybe a certain resentment can creep in .. like: ”how come I can’t afford to live in an appartment like that in such a great location?” and ”Where does their money come from?”

If you work in Silicon Valley, your idea of what an Indian person is will be skewed by the fact that most of those people working there in the IT sector who are from India will not be typical of their countrymen and women as a whole. But offspring of the wealthy class.

So if you did feel anything negative, it wouldn’t necessarily be because of their race.

I was tiptoeing in my last post to almost suggesting that some sterotypes that people might have about different minorities, might have some basis of truth behind them, because people who can afford to immigrate are often not typical of their country as a whole.

Changing planes in Kuwait a couple of times, and hanging about inside the terminal, I’m afraid to say that anti Gulf-Arab prejudices start to come into my mind (I have to admit). Standing around watching the passengers from flights from Riyadh and Muscat enter the terminal, I find myself inwardly shaking my head at the sight of some of them.

Meanwhile, in the terminal building, the guys doing all the menial jobs there look to be overseas nationals. (”What a miserable society” is the kind of thought I had seeing this).

I have the same thought when going to factories and laundries in England and see an exploited largly immigrant workforce there too.

Is it OK to have ”prejudices” about wealthy people?
And anyone who employs servants (and nannys and au pairs?)

“I wonder if the indigenous Spainish feel the same about their British born immigrants:”

I have a friend who’s lived on the Algarve in Portugal for 12 years, among a huge British expat community. He drinks in an ‘English’ bar, socializes only with British expats, employs an English gardener and an English housekeeper. And he barely speaks a word of Portuguese.

He laughs, arrogantly, at how much the locals dislike him and his fellow expats and how he dislikes the “lazy and stupid” Portuguese.

I’m not surprised they don’t like him, and I’m certain the situation in Spain is the same.

I think that many British expats have a shamful attitude which demonstrates utter disrespect bordering on contempt.

However, one thing I can say about the expat community I’ve observed is the they neither expect, nor demand any concessions or special treatment from their host country. They claim no benefits (most are quite well off), pay their own way, either educate their children privately or in local schools, who make to allowances whatsoever for children with Portuguese as a second language.

There are no translation services, no State funded community organisations and nobody is expected to ‘embrace’ or ‘celebrate’ British culture.

So your example isn’t really relevant as a moral equivalence argument regarding the British experience of immigration.

Thats the whole point. No man is an island.

“ I know three people from India who back home in India have servants at their family homes. They seem to think it’s perfectly normal to have employes doing their cooking and driving, while to me it sounds like Upstairs Downstairs and rather backward.”

Yeah I have come across loads of high net worths of all races from all over the globe. I think its a monied and class thing rather than a race thing. I sat next to some wealthy American corporate wives at dinner once and they were amazed that some UK women did their own manicures

“ When visiting India, I found the wealthy people to be (and I generalise of course) somewhat crass and I felt some antipathy towards them. When travelling by train they segregate themselves away from the wider society in air conditioned first class carriages – ”VIP Class”.”

Rather like the expensive Loggia boxes at the Royal Albert Hall or those exclusive private members clubs in Paris I expect. I was upgraded to 1st class on a Quantas flight to Oz once and the looks I got when I entered that ‘inner’ sanctum! Don’t know whether it was because I was female, non white, not wearing the latest Versace or a combination of all. Or mebbe just that I was a new face.

It would be interesting to have a survey of the views and politics of that British community. I’m guessing that it would tip towards the Daily Mail end of things.

I’d guess that anti-racism and multi-culturalism would frown on denigrating observations made about the British overseas though. Those middle aged people reading The Sun at cafes along the Algarve. The Brits out in the Gulf only there for the wages. All those English who’ve bought houses in France.

Because if it’s OK to call them vulgar, next thing is, people in the UK might be saying the same thing about Russians in London and Arabs along the Edgware Road.

I know three people from India who back home in India have servants at their family homes. They seem to think it’s perfectly normal to have employes doing their cooking and driving, while to me it sounds like Upstairs Downstairs and rather backward.

When visiting India, I found the wealthy people to be (and I generalise of course) somewhat crass and I felt some antipathy towards them.
When travelling by train they segregate themselves away from the wider society in air conditioned first class carriages – ”VIP Class”.

So maybe one could find that certain kinds of migrants or overseas workers or students, had traits that you might not care for. Students from Asia to Western countries must come from families in their country’s elite. As what percentage of families in Pakistan can afford the huge costs of sending a young family member to university in the west? Same perhaps with the Indian families who move to the USA. They’re not truely representative of India, but from a particular class. (In the same way that the Miami Cubans are of a particular type too).

But that’s enough generalising for now.

I wonder if the indigenous Spainish feel the same about their British born immigrants:

In 2007, the officially registered British-born population of Spain numbered 315,000 (though various estimates place the true figure significantly higher, ranging from 700,000 to more than 1,000,000, constituting 8.09% of the foreign population and making Britain the fourth most common country from which migrants to Spain originate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_migration_to_Spain

That’s the problem with people like you. You’re so wrapped up in your far left world-view and imaginary far-left solutions that you don’t actually listen.

My employee wasn’t complaining about the economy, jobs or housing.

He was talking about becoming a foreigner in his neighbourhood and his kids not getting an education as an English speaking minority in their class.